You’ve Got Mail: Deep Thoughts About Tom Hanks’ Charm, New York City’s Coziness, and the Merits of a Two-Hour RomCom / Commercial for AOL

“…all this nothing has meant more to me than so many somethings.”

This week, Emily revisited everyone and their aunt’s favorite late-90s advertisement, er, romcom, You’ve Got Mail. The film was a feature-length commercial for America Online starring two of the biggest names in romcom, Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan. With the biting interactions that lead to romance between Kathleen Kelly (Ryan) and Joe Fox (Hanks), this Nora Ephron-written and -directed film showed us something so true about what life was like for women in the late 20th century, it took decades before we realized just how infuriating it was. In the sisters’ conversation they unpack the sins Hanks’ charm manages to cover, the irony-not-irony in a romcom about the destruction of a small business being bankrolled by brands like AOL and Starbucks, and what ingredients made this film so beloved (comedy, pacing, chemistry, and dramatic irony). And in what may be a first, the sisters note how this movie makes New York City feel cozy. 

Emily and Tracie may not be Hanks and Ryan, but we have our charms. Throw on your headphones and be charmed!

Tags:

deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, romcom, comedy, film, storytelling, cultural commentary, 80s and 90s movies, movies, psychology, movie reviews, women, classic movies, romance, analyzing film tropes, millennial nostalgia, nostalgia, film analysis, tom hanks, meg ryan, nora ephron

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.

We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find. 

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Transcript

Pop Culture Is Still Culture

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Let me talk about charm covering a lot of sins. Because oh my god, is Tom Hanks charming? Like it oozes from him. He is so charming. Like he can say the most horrific things, and he's charming.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon. There's a link in the show notes. Or leave a positive review so others can find us.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

And of course, share the show with your people. I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1998 Nora Efron film You've Got Mail with my sister, Tracy Guy Decker, and with you. Now, before we dive in, listener, I would love to ask you to please do us a favor, if you haven't already, follow us on whichever uh platform you get your pods. If you are on Apple Podcasts, it is a plus sign. If you are on Spotify, it is a button that says follow. Doing that will help others find our podcast. It is a free and easy and simple way to help us out. And uh we would really appreciate it. Now let's dive in. So, Trace, I I'm pretty sure you've seen this film. It's one of our mom's favorites. She she loves this movie. So tell me what's in your head about You've Got Mail.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Yeah, I I've I've I've seen this movie multiple times and Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan, and like the moments that come up when I think about the movie are like when she's ill, she

Why You’ve Got Mail Sticks

SPEAKER_00 2:05

has a cold or something, and there's tissues everywhere, and she's like this big personality. And the moments when the the reveal finally happens because they've been corresponding and he knew who she was, but she didn't realize who he was. And so when that reveal happens and she says, I hoped it was you, which like, you know, made my heart itch when I saw it in the beginning. And now when I think about it, I'm like, ooh. And then like the final moment, like when one of Tom Hanks's like employees like wants to give her a job or something, or like says she'd be good as an as a as acquisitions editor or something, like somehow like making it okay. I'm putting quotes around that, about the fact that her family business was was put out of business by him. So those are the moments that come up, those, those specific moments. But I am very familiar with the film. It's probably been 10 years since I've seen it, but I've seen it many, many times. So so that's that's what's in my head is those things. Like, I I didn't see how gross the actual like action was in the 90s. I just saw the romance. And now all I can see is the grossness of the of the action. So, but tell me, why are we talking about you've got mail today?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

I remember when it came out, I had an AOL email address. And I remember there were like advertisements for it on AOL. And uh, it was a big deal. And I I I went to go see it and I loved it. I think I saw it in the theater. I then, right after I finished college, I worked for Barnes and Noble and I watched it many times in my first apartment when I was working for Barnes and Noble and feeling like, oh, I work for Fox books. I used to describe working for Barnes and Noble as being uh, you know, working for the literary branch of the evil empire. Yeah, I remember when you used to say that. And uh what's funny is now it it feels quaint to think of Barnes and Noble as as like the big baddie. Yeah. Because now that we have Jeff Bezos and yes. Any brick and mortar bookstore feels like, yes, please, we want you. And then the fact that it's about bookstores, which, you know, has always been something that I I loved was another reason why I really liked it. So it was something that I I I never owned it on DVD, but I remember going to the library when I when I lived in Columbus, I'd go to my local library and I would borrow it relatively regularly to re-watch it, even though I'd seen it so many times. And I can recall going to visit one of our aunts, and like she she would be like, Oh, I love a little romance. Let's watch You've Got Mail, even though we'd seen it so many times.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Was that mom's youngest sister?

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Yes. Yeah. So I had fond memories of this. But I also can remember our stepfather saying, like, how could she forgive him? And at the time being like, well, but you know, she got to do, you know, something new, something different with her life. And she'd been worried that her life was too small, but feeling a little weird about it. So so I I even then I had some like complex feelings about how the whole film played out. And considering the fact that this is the fourth iteration of the same story. Oh. Because uh it started off as a play called, I think, the parfumerie, la parfumerie, that is about correspondence, uh like pen pals between a man and a woman who don't realize that they are rivals who can't stand each other in in real life. And then the reason why Kathleen Meg Ryan's characters, Kathleen Kelly's store is called The Shop Around the Corner is because the 1940 version that had Jimmy Stewart was called The Shop Around the Corner. Now, Nora Efron modernized it by giving Kathleen Kelly her own business. So in the previous iterations of it, they were rivals who worked at the same store and that sort of thing. And there are references throughout this movie of Pride and Prejudice. And so there's there's uh the like enemies to lovers, like sense of the misunderstanding between Darcy and Lizzie Bennett. Sure within this. But that addition of capitalism, hmm, there's something something about that. And uh it's very quintessentially 90s and very quintessentially Nora Ephron, which is, I think, in general a good thing, but also it it's uh it's not exactly what we thought it was.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

So I'm gonna give you uh a couple of postcards from the destination before I kind of remind you of the story. I'm gonna talk about capitalism and product placement, because as I I said, you know, when you had an AOL email account, when you signed on to AOL, they had like ads for the movie in 1998 because this was really a two-hour commercial for America Online. So like I'm I'm on a theme here because my last uh episode was Me Man. So I'm gonna be talking about that. Um, I'm gonna be talking about how Nora Efron, especially in this film, illustrates a lot of things that are true. And it takes hindsight to realize how infuriating these true things are. I'm gonna talk about how charm and specifically Tom Hanks' charm covers a lot of sins. I want to talk about the irony of the fact that this two-hour commercial is about the destruction of a small business. But in some ways, it's not ironic because it makes us be okay with the fact that it's about the destruction of a small business. I want to talk about how Nora Efron made this film beloved, like what she did. And some of it has to do with how New York is the setting and how beautifully she uses it as the setting. And also, like one of the things that I have always personally adored about this film is what I call indie actors. I don't know what else you would call them, but they're not like A-list celebrities, but they're phenomenal actors. And I'm thinking specifically Parker Posey and Steve Zahn. But also I would uh I would add Greg Kinnear to that, who are in this film, which was a major success. But, you know, even prior to this and even after this, they they were not necessarily in these big budget films, which I don't know if there's a big budget, but you know, big studio films. So I want to talk uh also about the internet and like how it has changed and like how quaint things are watching this. And that kind of ties into romance via correspondence as well. So those are those are some of the things that I want to talk about in this episode. I'm probably not gonna be able to get to all of it. So just to remind you of what this film is about, it is autumn in New York. We meet Kathleen Kelly. She is in a relationship with a writer for I don't remember which newspaper, but he's he's a columnist named Frank, played by Greg Kinnear. Kathleen Kelly is played by Meg Ryan. They don't live together, but they practically do. Like the um,

The Plot And The Power Imbalance

SPEAKER_01 10:10

we see him at her apartment all the time. He is getting up and leaving, and we see her kind of like checking, make sure he's gone before she checks her email because she is looking for an email from her email pen pal, NY152. She is shop curl. And so it is established that she has this long-running correspondence that is sort of almost not quite an emotional affair via email. And so we see a little bit of their correspondence back and forth. We then see that uh the person behind NY152, who lives at 152, that's his address, and they're both in the upper west side of Manhattan, is Joe Fox, played by Tom Hanks. And we see them both starting their day and they keep missing each other. They're walking, you know, similar paths. They both stop at Starbucks and just miss each other. They're both walking down the same street at different times, just barely missing each other. Kathleen has a small independent children's bookstore called The Shop Around the Corner that was started by her mother 42 years before Cecilia was her mother's name. And her mother has passed away. We don't know how long ago her mother's been gone, but it seems like at least a decade. And she has, it seems like three employees. There's her accountant, Bertie, played by Gene Stapleton. And then there's George played by Steve Zahn, and I am, I think Kate is uh the young woman who is in college, um, who works there part-time. And then Joe is the son of a line of the Fox men who have a chain of bookstores, a la Barnes and Noble, called Fox and Sons Books. And they are opening a new branch on the Upper West Side. And we see Joe with his father, played by Dabney Coleman, and his grandfather, who um I an old man, uh, talking about um they're expecting protests. And uh Dabney Coleman starts saying, like, oh, the liberal latte sipping and like this whole thing. And Joe says, readers, dad. And Dabney Coleman says, Don't romanticize them, son. So we get a sense of like kind of the cutthroat nature of Fox and Son's books. Joe is also in a relationship with a woman named Patricia, played by Parker Posey, who he describes as making coffee nervous. So that is the setup. Kathleen and Joe correspond almost daily. They have already set up the rules that they don't tell each other anything personal, like not what their jobs are, not what their names are, nothing like that. They just kind of talk generalities, but they talk about books, they talk about music, they talk about how much they love New York. So they know that they're both in New York. So Joe has an aunt who is about nine years old because his um grandfather had a much younger wife or girlfriend. And then he has a brother who is four years old because his father has a much younger paramour, who he's been with for five years, but has not married. And so Joe takes the kids out for a day of fun and they stop at the shop around the corner. And so that's how they first meet and they're charmed by each other. Uh, Joe, of course, knows who he is, but she doesn't know that he's a fox. And so she's charmed by him. He tells her, just call me Joe. She then meets him again at a literary party and is talking to him, and he's trying to avoid her because he knows she'll find out very quickly who he is. Uh, and someone comes up to her and says, I can't believe you were talking to Joe Fox. And then she then goes, goes and confronts him, and he is very rude to her because he feels feels bad. She looks for solace by emailing NY152, not knowing it's Joe. Um, he doesn't know that shop girl who's emailing him is Kathleen. Well, actually, he actually goes to her for solace, come to think of it. He says, I'm not perfect. You know, my snark comes out when I'm confronted and, you know, I say the most horrible and nasty things. And she says, actually, when I'm confronted, I I freeze and I can't think of anything to say. So things continue when the store, when Foxbooks opens, she immediately loses business. So she asks for NY152's advice. He suggests go to the mattresses because he's into The Godfather, which is basically, you know, fight. So she asks Frank, her boyfriend, to write a column. And it brings, you know, a whole bunch of business and a whole bunch of um interest into the store and sends picketers to Fox Fox books, but it doesn't make any difference. She asks NY152 if they can meet, because Joe had suggested it before and she'd said no. So he goes to the cafe where they're going to meet, and he brings Kevin, who is his store manager, who's played by Dave Chappelle, and he's feeling really anxious about it, like about he's afraid she's going, because Kevin keeps saying, like, she could be a real dog, man, which is like just lovely. And so he's like, Can you just look in there and look to see? She'll have a copy of Pride and Prejudice and a and a rose. So Kevin looks in there and says, Oh, she's actually very attractive. You know, if you think Kathleen Kelly is beautiful, then I know you'll find her attractive. And he's like, Oh, that's fantastic. And he's like, Well, if you don't like Kathleen Kelly, I don't know if you'll like her. And he's like, What? Why not? He's like, Because it's Kathleen Kelly. And so that's how Joe finds out that Shop Girl is Kathleen. He was gonna leave and just, you know, have her be stood up by NY152. But then he comes in and she finds her spine and is is is rude to him. They have like, it's actually very well done banter, like Lizzie Bennett and Darcy kind of banter to the point where he finally, like, she says something that that really hurts his feelings, and you can see him like, okay, that's my cue to leave, and he leaves. But then she thinks she was stood up. He is feeling like, you know, she's really like a mean person. But she emails him and says, Why, why weren't you there? You weren't there, and someone who's making my professional life miserable was, and I don't know what happened. And so he says, I can't tell you why I wasn't there. And I'm sorry that you had that experience. But, you know, I really do want to keep talking to you. So they continue uh having the conversation. All of this is uh it starts in autumn in New York. This is all going through, you know, you see see Christmas happen, and uh we see an author come to the store saying, Oh, I'm so so worried about your store. And Kathleen says, No, no, no, we're gonna be fine. We're excited for your new book. And the author says, Oh, it's gonna be published in January. And uh Kathleen says, That's great, we're gonna have you here for the signing. And then we see that she's doing the signing at Foxbooks. And so things continue. Kathleen decides to close the store because it's just not sustainable. We see that Joe and Patricia break up. He gets stuck in an elevator in his building. And he realizes, just based on what's going on in that elevator, that he and Patricia aren't aren't meant for each other. Frank and Kathleen break up because Kathleen talks to Bertie, played by Gene Stapleton, who is telling her the story of the time she fell madly in love in Spain and she couldn't marry him because he ran Spain. And I realize it had to have been generalisimo Franco. And uh Frank is like furious about this. And he's like, you know, you have a fling, but not with a fascist dictator. And Kathleen's like, back off this, she's very, very dear to me. She's like a second mother to me. And he's like, Well, I couldn't be with someone who didn't take politics as seriously as I do. And honestly, I'm kind of a little bit with Frank on this. And uh, and so she then confesses to him, like, you know what? I have something to tell you. In the last election, when it was uh Rudy Giuliani versus whoever he was running against, I forgot to vote. I got a manicure, I was not having my normal day, and I forgot to vote. And he's like, All right, I forgive you. And so she just gets up and leaves. They were there to see a movie. She gets up and leaves, and then he gets up and he's like, I'm sorry, that was really uncalled for. And they they end up breaking up. So we see her closing the store, and on the day the store is closed, she wanders into Foxbooks, goes to the children's section, overhears a clerk unable to help a uh customer because they have no idea what book it is that the person's looking for. Of course, she knows. And so she's crying.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

It's like the pink ballet slipper.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

It's it's the shoe books. The person's asking for the shoe books, and she's like, Yeah, by Noah Strepfield. There's uh the ballet shoes, the skating shoes, the and and Joe sees this happen. And so several weeks later, um, after a conversation with his father, Joe realizes, no, I really, really like her and I want to try to befriend her. So it's the scene you remember when she's sick. He like hustles his way into her house, which is kind of not okay, and says, I want to be your friend while she's sick. And then he starts like insinuating himself into her life in real life while also emailing her, saying, I want to meet, but I I have a project that that takes some tweaking. And so he is like befriending her in real life while also emailing her until it gets to a point where he plans to have lunch with her as Joe. And then NY152 is going to meet her the same day that afternoon. And so when he has lunch with her, he says to her, like, you know, if it hadn't been for all of the business stuff, uh, I think I would have asked for your number. I would have uh like wanted to have coffee or dinner or drinks with you, and then for as long as we both shall live, like I would have wanted to do that. And the only thing we would have ever argued about was what video to watch on Saturday night. And he's like, if you could forgive him for standing you up, why can't you forgive me for putting you out of business? Because those things are equivalent, those are things are not exactly equivalent. And she's like, I have to go. And so she then leaves to go meet NY152, and of course it's him, and that's when she says, I had hoped it was you, and that's the end of the they they kiss, and it's the end of the film. So let me talk about charm covering a lot of sins. Because oh my god, is Tom Hanks charming? Like it oozes from him. He's so charming. Like he can say the most horrific things, and he's charming.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah. Yeah. Like when when God was like passing out charm, he got in line twice.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah. Yeah. I think more than twice. Like he got in line twice, and then he's like,

Tom Hanks Charm Covers Sins

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Can I have half of yours? Tilling. Yeah. Someone else's. Because He is able to, with a straight face, say, like, if you can forgive him for standing you up, why can't you forgive me for the little thing of putting you out of business? He says the little thing. He actually says that. And like he's saying it to make it clear, I know what I did was unforgivable. But it's still like, it's unforgivable, Joe. And when he comes to see her when she's sick, he says to her, like, it wasn't personal. And she responds, I hate it when people say that. When they say that, that means it wasn't personal to them. It was personal to me. It was my mother's store. It was my legacy. It was my connection to my dead mother. And then also, if things are anything, they should at least be personal. And I feel like if we had any other actor and any other pairing, because their chemistry is bonkers.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Yeah. This movie would not work. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there are other actors who could pull it off, but these two really do make you believe it. I I mean, and Hanks, like we talked about it when we talked about A League of Their Own. Like his character in that in A League of Their Own is a dick. And yet, like the only thing in my memory is how charming Tom Hanks was. I think it's similar here. Like Joe is he's a bro, you know? But we all fall in love with him because he was Tom Hanks. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

I read some commentary about this, some people, and it's mostly like blog posts, people, you know, re-watching it after, you know, 20 years and things like that. And some of what people are saying is like, it's not like what he's writing to her, at least early on, is all that charming even. You know, some of it is the voiceover delivery of Tom Hanks. Like he's talking about his dog. It's not even like it's that great. Now, some of it, I mean, some of the dialogue, some of what's written is great, is really, really well done. But I have trouble believing that what he's talking about with his dog is enough to make me like want to come back. Ignore Yeah. Well, ignore Greg Kinnear, who is a very attractive man. Yeah. That kind of charm covers so much. It's also other aspect, and this was I I read it on Lithub and I'll include it in the show notes. Someone else was saying, like, while he is a bro in this, and this is all like, you know, they're they're they're cast as like, you know, this big bad capitalism, they're still in books. That's not to say that like when Barnes and Noble would come in and put out independent bookstores, that that's really not okay. But it's not as if Barnes and Noble is Walmart or Amazon. And this Lithub essay that I was reading was saying, like, you know, Barnes Noble doesn't make this like the ginormous profit like Amazon. Walmart does. Yeah, or Amazon does. And you probably remember me talking about this. So when I worked at Barnes and Noble, we at one point got a new store manager. And like all of us, the booksellers, hated him because he came from Best Buy. He wasn't a book person. He was awful. He was a bro. He was like a pew pew. Because you actually see Joe and his father and grandfather do finger guns at each other. And this guy was unironically a finger guns guy. And so that that's that's a like attention as well, is like, because they are like delighted that a small bookstore has gone out of business. And I don't know what the, you know, big guys behind Barnes Noble, I don't know what they feel like. But I know the like store managed manager level did not feel good about that when small business small bookstores, independent bookstores went out of business.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Because they love bookstores, right? Unlike your Best Buy guy who saw books only as a product, not as a container for what, you know, for story and and wonder and and exploration.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Yeah. And so so like you don't come to own branches of book superstores if you don't love books.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

I mean, unless you acquire them, but I guess then they're not called Fox and Sons.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Yeah. Yeah. That's more of a side issue, but like that that kind of gets to like the weirdness of Barnes Noble being the big bad. It's effective, but it is a little weird. So with charm covering a lot of sins, I want to um talk about how Nora Efron illustrates things that are true, especially about womanhood. So do you recall after Kathleen learns that Joe, just call me Joe, is Joe Fox, and they start noticing each other in the neighborhood all the time. And there's a point where she's shopping at a grocery store and like she realizes he's there and she's trying to avoid him. And so because she's so distracted by him being there, she gets into a cash-only line and she

The Grocery Line Double Standard

SPEAKER_01 27:45

doesn't have cash to check out. And it's not until because she keeps doing this, it's not until she's ready to pay and she goes tries to give a credit card that she realizes she's in a cash-only line. And the cashier is like getting frustrated with her, as are the everyone in the line behind her. Does this sound familiar at all? Vaguely. Does Joe pay for her? Well, Joe shows up, he's like, Do you, do you need some money? And she's like, No, of course I don't need money. But everyone's like, get in a different line, get in a different line. Joe comes in and uh the cashier's name is Rose, and she's got a name tag on, and he starts charming her. He's like, he's like, Do you need some money? And Kathleen's no, no, of course I don't need money because she doesn't want to take money from him.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

And he's like, Rose, that's a great name. You know, Rose, you've got a you've got a credit card machine right here. Do you think you could maybe just break the rules just one time, just one time for my friend here? And like, this is also it's uh, there's a it's a Visa product placement because he holds up the credit card so you can see the logo. Can you just maybe just one time for this? And so she starts like smiling because it's the charm of Tom Hanks. He's like, just the one time, just zip zip. And so she allows it. And uh Kathleen is so embarrassed and she's like, I am so sorry. I'm so sorry, I never do this. And as soon as the the transaction's done, and Rose is still smiling because, you know, Tom Hanks, she turns to to Kathleen and immediately is mad again. And everyone in the in the line is annoyed again. And in the moment, like when I saw this in '98, and since I was just thinking about, like, you know, Joe is so charming, you're thinking he can talk his way into or out of anything. But on this rewatch, I'm sitting there thinking, like, the woman doesn't no, no, no, as in Kathleen. Oh, a man can break the rules. And he is rewarded with smiles. But the woman breaking the rules is still the villain. And we don't see this as like this really embarrassing moment for Kathleen as anything other than like Joe's being a good guy. He came to her rescue. He's using his charm for good.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

As opposed to critiquing the actual moment itself.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Yes. Yeah. And how how this is like this impossible bind that Kathleen was in.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Because, you know, it's understandable that she was distracted because she's like, oh, I do not want to deal with this guy. And now I'm dealing with this guy.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

And it's way worse than if she had just said hello.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yeah. Yeah. And so this is what I meant when I said Nora Efron illustrates things that are true, and it takes time for us to realize how infuriating they are. Because all of that is like just it's reality. It's reality that's if there's a man you're trying to avoid, like it ends up making a worse situation. Mm-hmm. Oftentimes for women. Whereas, and I I just saw it, but I can't remember if he's trying to avoid her too or or or not. But as soon as he sees she's in trouble, he's like about it. So like she can't get out of that grocery store without being embarrassed unless she abandons her cart and just leaves. And we're left feeling warm and fuzzy about him, him, in the same way that Rose the cashier is left feeling warm and fuzzy about him, where she's treated like an asshole by everyone in the line and by the cashier. Mm-hmm when she was just, she just didn't want to, she just didn't want to deal with this asshole. It's fascinating because Nora Efron was so savvy. Like she was so savvy about the realities of the cost of womanhood. She was so savvy about the realities of the sexual politics and the dynamics of navigating the world as a woman.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

And she showed us those realities, but she put it in candy coding.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

I'm not sure that's the right metaphor. But she showed us that without indictment of anyone. And I think that's a little different than candy coding. And that's why we didn't see it. Because she didn't she just showed us like this is what happens. And she didn't go like, isn't that shitty?

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Yeah, but she you know, like I do feel like we're we're that scene we're left to think like Joe's a good guy. That's why I say cute decoding.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

Yeah, maybe. Like when I used to watch it, I would smile at Joe. Along with Rose. Along with Rose. Although I definitely related to Kathleen in that moment. Mm-hmm. But it's Tom Hanks. He's the candy coding.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Yeah. I don't know. There's something uh I don't know that we have time to pull this apart here, but I think there's there's something really interesting about what Efron does by sort of showing us this very embarrassing moment. And I think we're meant to relate to Kathleen. And and so we have a moment of like resonance because we've experienced that. And so we don't indict any of it because we're like, yeah, that happens. That's real. You know what I mean? And it's almost like we're too close to it to realize how infuriating it is. I think that's that's kind of what you are getting at when you say that that Efron illustrates what's true. And then it takes a while for us. I mean, I feel like that was true of the whole freaking movie.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Yeah. About the small business being put out of business. Like we're watching it, we're like, yeah, that that's real. That happens. And so there's a resonance with reality that feels satisfying. And then as we start to unpack reality, then we can unpack the film that resonated with reality. I think that's true of the capitalism. I think that's also true of the double standard and the sort of cost of being female that is in this sort of in this in this one scene. I think it's also true in the overarching story of capitalism. It's not even like of that sort of cutthroat profits over everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

To get into that, so the illustrating things that are true with the downfall of Shop Around the Corner, I feel like Efron wanted to modernize the story and make Kathleen a business owner. And I think she wanted to also make it okay that she loses her business by introducing before the possibility of losing her business, introducing her, her saying, like, I live a little life. I mean, it's a valuable one, but I run the store that my mother started. You know, she's the one who lived a big life. She's the one who had the dream of starting the store.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

And her then writing children's books afterwards. And she's uh she talks about she's afraid she's not brave. And so closing the store is the brave decision to to make. And I feel like Nora Efron wrote that to kind of give cover, kind of kind of say, like, this is Kathleen's, she's being guided to what she actually wants.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Yes. Yeah. Completely. I completely agree with you. I mean, at the end of the day, Efron is also a businesswoman, right? She needs a story that will sell. And you can't write a romance that like doesn't leave you with the ick where the core action is a small business being put out of business. Yeah if there isn't that sort of backup, that backstop that this is the universe working in mysterious ways to give Kathleen what she actually wants. And so, yes, I I agree with you. I and I'm sure that was a calculated decision on Efron's part. Yes. But and I mean she this is the story she wanted to tell. Like this is the romance she wanted to tell. The, the, the Darcy Lizzie, the um whatever the parfumerie was that I wasn't familiar with. You know, so how do you like modernize it and still make it okay? Like she had some constraints and sh and she she gave them to us. Did she do us a service by doing that? That's a different question. And I think that's what's making you uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Well, I I think it would be so interesting if Kathleen Kelly, if it were Kelly Books that was the giant corporation and Fox Books that was the little book, little bookshop and switch the genders.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Yeah. That becomes a very different story. And frankly, if Efron were still alive, it would be a much harder one for her to write. Because of the scene that you saw, that you you brought up with Rose. Like there is a sort of universal hatred of the feminine, you know. So and the and the feminine assertive, the feminine entrepreneur, the feminine like powerful, all the more hated.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Well, and that's that's exactly so. Parker Posey, who I love, who plays Patricia, who's not right for Joe, she is ridiculed. That character is ridiculed for being so cutthroat. And part of what I love about part of the reason why I love that actor is that um she commits and doesn't give a shit. All of her characters are are that kind of um she got Moxie. Like, I don't know how else to describe it. So her demeanor is kind of punished for being like when we first meet her, she says, so-and-so just got a literary award. He's gonna be insufferable. Oh, and such and such just died. So that's one more person I'm not talking to. Or one less person I'm not talking to. I love her. She is completely oblivious. And that's also kind of fabulous. So she is the one that you're remembering who who is like, I want to offer her a job as a children's book editor. She's got flawless taste, she's she's famous for it. She knows every book. And there's a moment where Kathleen says, like, you know, she she offered me a job and like she didn't take it. And the thing is, like, that would be a better position for Kathleen to be in financially than writing books. Yeah. Yeah. Ask me how I know that. And what Kathleen is being punished for in the scene in the grocery store is trying to break the rules.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

Yeah. We're we're running short on time. I would actually, there's a bunch of stuff you listed in the beginning from your postcards, and we're not going to get to all of them. But I would like to invite you to unpack why you think this film is so beloved. Like the way you said it to me before we hit record was like why this film works. And then you said why it's so beloved. So I would, I would love to like hear a little, I would love to hear you unpack that a little bit. And we can save some of your other postcards for our show We Forgot to Say, which is a patrons only exclusive over on our Patreon.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

So there are several things that I think work really well. Now, some of it is like the central pairing. As we said, like uh Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan have insane chemistry. But I think there's also a kind of coziness to the way that the set design and the filming of New York, which is

Why The Movie Still Works

SPEAKER_01 40:29

an odd thing to say about New York. Yeah, cozy's not a word that usually cozy's not a word you think of with New York. But considering this is about bookstores, it's a just a warm way of directing all of this. And it's it's cozy in terms of the set design. And not necessarily set design. Some of it's just like, because I think the the book, the store that they used as the set for Shop Around the Corner was a real store. It was a really antique store that they used for the for the filming. And then however they designed the Fox store, also really, really well done. It feels cozy, as do the apartments that that we see. But then also the exterior shots through autumn, winter, and spring of New York, it is the platonic ideal of New York. It's not the trash-ridden, ugly, gross New York. Although you do sometimes see, because there's a point where Kathleen is like in a wonderful mood and she's like, isn't it the most beautiful day? Don't you love New York in the autumn? And you see it like a car accident happening behind her. So like you do see that like New York isn't perfect, but it's still like there's something very cozy about it. So it's a it's a a comfort movie, which is part of the reason why I kept watching it. And so there's there's that aspect of it that I think is is just delightful that Nora Efron I think has has a like a really good handle on. And then the humor, it's can be laugh out loud, funny, but it's also just kind of gentle. So early on, when the aunt and brother, so the little the kids are being dropped off, the brother's mother has come with the nanny, Nanny Maureen, saying, Nanny Maureen can come with you if you're worried about being able to handle the kids all day. And so the kids tell Joe, Nanny Maureen's getting divorced. And Nanny Maureen says, Yes, I've learned never marry a man who lies. And Joe turns to Annabelle, the his his aunt, and says, That's a good thing to remember. Although he should also mention it to Little Matt as well, just in case. So like little moments like that where it's just like it takes its time. Although that also sets up a joke later on, because Matthew's mother, though the little boy's mother, ends up leaving Joe's father for Nanny Maureen. Oh. And you kind of see when they when when they're they get interested in each other. So like that that's that's a little running joke in the background. So there's there's these kind of little moments are are also just just like there was a book that I read called Between by LL Starling that is like 750 pages. And it if it were traditionally published, it would have been cut down to probably 350 pages. But I adore it as it is. And the way that I recommend it is like if you are looking for a book where each scene builds upon. Alas to an inevitable conclusion. This is not the book for you. But if you are willing to let the writer take you on like different trails and pathways, side quests. Side quests that are delightful. Take this and let the author take you by the hand. And you think that that's what this movie's like? A little bit. Like I think we get Ephron's wit through these little side things. Ephron's wit through through these side things. Like she she is, and part of it is because like she was at the top of her game, and there are not that many women directors, but she was Nora freaking Ephron and no one was gonna be telling her what to do.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Did she direct it as well?

SPEAKER_01 44:41

She did, yes. Oh she takes her time and she like settles in to the scenes. Like nothing is forced. It's like a comfortable cardigan.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

So I'm hearing that it's about the pacing, it's about the wit and the humor. You didn't mention my favorite thing, which this movie has in space, which is d dramatic irony. Oh yes. Because we have dramatic irony from the beginning. Like we, the viewer, know that Kathleen is shop girl and Joe is NY152. Like we know that from the very beginning, right? And then we know that Joe knows that Kathleen is shop girl and Kathleen doesn't know. Like, and so there's like dramatic irony, like layers of it throughout this film that I know I'm not alone in finding that kind of sort of insider knowledge, if you will. Like, I I don't know if that's the right word. I don't know if insider is the right word. It's it's almost like an omnipotence that because it's delicious. It it really is. Because, you know, we completely relate with Kathleen. Like there's a self-insert there, but we know more than she knows. And so there's like a satisfaction in that that feels safe. Right. Because part of what is is unsafe, not literally physically dangerous, but you know, emotionally unsafe for Kathleen is the fact that she doesn't know that Joe is NY152. We do know. So we have sort of a a certain degree of safety in that. I think that the all the things you named, the chemistry between the two leads, the wit, the pacing, the writing is is amazing, the direction like is like comfortable. And the dramatic irony is very satisfying. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

But I do want to talk about before we finish up, it's kind of irony, but it's kind of not. The irony of the fact that this film is about the destruction of a small business. And it's it's a two-hour commercial for America Online, and it is full of product placement. There's there's Starbucks, there's Visa, there's um Apple computers. I say it's kind of irony because it's not. Because she ends up with the multimillionaire.

A Romance Sponsored By Capitalism

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Like it's okay that she lost her business. Like the destruction of the small business is not a big deal. And so, like it's not, it's only as bad as being stood up, apparently. Yes. Yes. It's so odd that this film sort of glances at it, flicks at like capitalism is bad. Capitalism destroys these institutions, these neighborhood institutions. Capitalism does not have the deep knowledge of neighborhoods, does not have deep knowledge of literature. Um so it flicks at that, but at the same time, like this is the movie that capitalism built. And uh, you know, Kathleen embraces capitalism pretty much.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Well, I mean, let's be let's be clear, she is also a like at least a merchant. I mean, she owns a merchant. Like, and I we don't need to like go get into the actual like definitions of mercantilism versus capitalism, but the pursuit of profit, right? Like the pursuit of profit is is more precise. What is sort of the big bad here? Well, late stage capitalism, let's put it that way. Yeah. Yeah. And that there's a it's interesting, like that you kind of name like irony, but not irony, because there's a degree to which, and I don't know where where Afron would have fallen out on this, but there's a degree to which it's like so inevitable that like Kathleen is like forced to embrace it or die, you know, in the same way that the closure of the shop around the corner was inevitable from the start of this movie. Like, Kathleen doesn't have a choice. If she wants to keep going, she has to embrace it. Like in the same way that like you're a finance writer and you always tell me money is a delusion. It's a shared delusion. It doesn't actually exist. And I believe you, but I can't opt out of the delusion. Well, that's because I still have to live in the world. And so I think that that like is a is a is a parallel kind of a structure here that like ultimately, like, yeah, it's a shared delusion, but you gotta live in the world in which everyone else is delusional, so you gotta go along with it. The same thing with this late-stage capitalism.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Well, it's that the film is almost trying to critique that.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Right. It comes right to the edge of critique and then doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

But at the same time, it's made b because, you know, AOL and and uh Apple and Starbucks and Visa gave a whole hell of a lot of money for it.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Right. Right. Yeah. So it's sort of the same. Like and I I don't know how to feel about that. Yeah, I totally hear that.

SPEAKER_02 50:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

All right, let me see if I can reflect back. We actually talked about quite a bit here. I'll start with what I think you started with, which is charm covering a lot of sins and specifically Tom Hanks' charm. And I think that that's true of Tom Hanks in general as an actor. Like he can play these really dickish characters and make us love him anyway, because he got in line three or four times for charm when God

The Real Takeaways And Seams

SPEAKER_00 50:35

was hanging handing out charm. But I think there's also a degree that, and this will like feed into another point that you made. There's a degree to which it's about Tom Hanks, but there's a degree to which it's just about charm and specifically good-looking male charm, especially when we contrast that to, you know, the cost of being female, where it doesn't matter how fucking charming you are. You could be, you could be goddamn Meg Ryan and still get the stink eye in the grocery line. And that is a something that's true. And the way that you named this, which I think is true of Efron, Nora Efron, not just in this movie, but in I think all of her writing, where she reflects reality to us in such a relatable way that we resonate, we feel the resonance with the vibration of reality, and we find that comforting and satisfying because we have lived it and somebody is reflecting it back to us. And because of that, because of that resonance with reality, that same frequency as reality, we're too close to it to critique it. And so it's all of these years later that we're looking back on it and going, oh, wow, that's actually really fucked up. And and and like and infuriating. That's the word that you used. And I think that that is true, not just in this film, like when we looked at Ali of their own, which is another Ephron written, not directed piece. Or when Harry met Sally, we also did when Harry met Sally, which is another Ephron written, not directed piece. That that's one of was one of Nora Efron's gifts was the way that she was able to show us in a story something that so deeply reflected reality that millions of us who've lived totally different lives all are like, oh yeah, I see myself in that. And because we see ourselves in it, I think it's too close for us to recognize how absolutely infuriating the thing is that she's showing us. Because she didn't say to us, look at this, it's infuriating. She said, Look at this. And we were like, Yeah, I've seen that. I think that's an interesting point about storytelling and about cultural critique. If it were a different sort of thing, we might say, like, as we sometimes say on this show, like, I'm not mad at Nore Ephron, I'm mad at society. You talked about the fact that New York, as portrayed in this movie, is almost cozy, which is not a word that one ordinarily associates with the city of New York. But you named that the New York of this movie is like the Platonic ideal of New York. And the coziness is c conveyed through that platonic ideal of everything that's good about living in a city, a big city like New York, and also the actual set designs of the apartments in which we find ourselves and the two bookstores in which we find ourselves. So that was sort of an interesting point, which contributed to why people find this movie beloved or what works about it. So that was one piece of what works about it. Another piece is the like, in your words, bonkers chemistry between Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan, which you by which you mean like really, really off the charts. Like again, these two people stood in line for chemistry multiple times. There's also the wit and the humor of Efron that's sort of like slow and gentle, and the pacing, which is also somewhat gentle. All those things go together. You use the metaphor of like a cozy cardigan. I added to that conversation the dramatic irony that runs through this film, which is so satisfying to viewers and readers. I feel like I'm forgetting something. Oh, you named some of the supporting actors in this film who just are really, really great, including Parker Posey and Steve Zahn, and you named Grant Greg Kinnear as well, who are not sort of the headline, like they're not the first billing actors in anything, I don't think, but are just really incredible actors. And then we talked about the irony and not irony of this film, which is a two-hour commercial for America Online with product placements for lots of other brands that's about the destruction of small businesses, but is also like a major, you know, studio motion picture and is itself a product. And that led to us having a conversation about the fact that sort of yeah, it's late-stage capitalism, but you gotta keep going. Like money's a delusion, but we're all sharing the delusion and you gotta live in the world. And maybe there's a certain extent to which Efron was doing that. I I think there's something I forgot. Oh, the the fact that you named in the storytelling that Efron had to make it okay. Oh, yes. She won she gave us this Kathleen Kelly, as opposed to sort of earlier versions of this character, has more power and agency insofar as she's a business owner and not just like a sh a perfume counter girl. Shop girl. Sh she's a shop, she is a shop girl, but she's also the shop owner. And so she gave her more power and agency by doing that. But but then this the sort of rivalry that ends in the destruction of the bookshop, the shop around the corner, she needed to make us okay with the fact that the shop closed. And so there was this backstory piece about how Kathleen's worried that she's living too small and that she's not sure if the shop is actually her dream, and she's not sure if she's brave, so that then we can see that Fox and Sons putting her out of business was actually the universe working in her favor to give her what she actually wanted, which is this is one of those things where, like, I think Efron, I mean, this is a little bit Efron living in that capitalism where she has to sell this movie to us as viewers. I think it's also a little bit like you as a storyteller noticing that seam and being like, that's not as tight as I would like. Right. Like we use this metaphor often because of an uncle of ours whose family grew up in the garment business who taught you to like look at the seams to know if things were quality. So I think this is you seeing the seams in this thing and seeing the hand of the storyteller in a more manipulative way than you like. You prefer it to be a little like more natural, like this, they're just sort of showing you something rather than seeing the hand of the storyteller going, here, believe this. And I and I I think that's in my opinion, that's what led to your discomfort at sort of recognizing that Efron did that on purpose. Like, of course she did. She did everything on purpose. Yeah. So now I think I captured everything.

SPEAKER_01 57:37

Yeah, I think that I think that was everything.

SPEAKER_00 57:39

Cool. Okay. Uh, this was fun. Next week, Emily, I'm going to bring you my deep thoughts about the film Short Circuits about the robot. Do you remember Johnny Five? Johnny Five. Yeah. And Ali Sheedy. Yeah. Who's Johnny? She's it. She's it. Anyway. So looking forward to that. Um, listeners, if you want to, we are going to record the things that Emily didn't get to in our shit we forgot to say about You've

Next Week And Patreon Extra

SPEAKER_00 58:05

Got Mail, head over to our Patreon and you can take a listen. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head?