The Full Monty: Deep Thoughts About Masculinity, Fatherhood, and Using Comedy to Make a Political Point

No-one said anything to me about the full monty!

For this week's episode of Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Tracie returns to the 1997 British comedy The Full Monty. The film is a meditation on masculinity from multiple angles, including economic, sexual, psychological, physical, parental, and societal, as well as a treatise on the political aftermath of Thatcherism that left an entire generation of British men without jobs. But instead of a snooze-fest of dry cultural commentary on these issues, writer Simon Beaufoy and director Peter Cattaneo wisely wrapped these important social issues in comedy storytelling with hilarious results. Through comedy, the audience gets to see how the mental health of these men was affected by Thatcher's policies and how they get through the tough times by leaning on each other--and putting together a truly ridiculous strip show. It's the spoonful of sugar that lets the political messaging go down.

You don't have to take your kit off. Just put your headphones on and listen in!

Content warning: Brief discussion of suicide ideation/attempt.

tags: deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, comedy, film, storytelling, mental health, cultural commentary, 80s and 90s movies, movies, psychology, movie reviews, women, classic movies, romance, analyzing film tropes, millennial nostalgia, nostalgia, film analysis, simon beaufoy, the full monty, british film

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.

We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find. 

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Transcript

Pop Culture Still Counts

SPEAKER_02 0:00

They're forced to question and the movie allows them to really explore all of the ways, the pat ways a society has told us that make a man a job, a a breadwinner, you know, providing sex, um, oggling women, uh being a being a dad. Oh, heterosexuality, even they're they're not what make men men. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. I'm Tracy Guidecker, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1997 British phenomenon, the full Monty, with my sister, Emily Guybergen, and with you. Let's dive in. Listener, before we dive into the Full Monty, I want to ask you to please take a moment if you haven't already and follow the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify in particular. On Apple, it's a plus sign. On Spotify, there is a button that says follow. It is an easy and free way to help us grow the show. Thanks. So, um last episode I teased that I was going to be talking to talking about train

Quick Favor Follow The Show

SPEAKER_02 1:31

spotting. But it turns out that train spotting is not streaming anywhere. You cannot pay people to stream you train spotting. And so very weird. Well, yeah, something maybe licensing with the music. I don't know. Um and so I am pivoting to another film of around the same era that actually even shares a cast member, and that's the Full Monzi. Um, and we're gonna put off train spotting to a future time, uh, after which I can find a DVD of train spotting and also buy myself a DVD player. But um

Pivot From Trainspotting To Sheffield

SPEAKER_02 2:07

that will be in the future. They're cheap now. They're cheap.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

It's just weird to me that you don't have one anymore.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Well, I didn't get custody of it in the in the household separation. Gotcha, gotcha. So um, so tell me, um, I'm I'm fairly certain you saw this movie, but tell me what's in your head about the Full Monty.

SPEAKER_03 2:29

So I've seen it once, um, and hazy memories of it. So if I recall, it's a group of women in a small village, and one of the women's husbands is dying of cancer or something along the city. Oh my god, no. That is not this movie. No. Not this movie. No. I don't know what movie that is, but it is not the full Monty. Hmm. Well, they all put on They put on a uh a calendar. They put on a strip show. Strip show. Okay. It's not a calendar. You are thinking of a different movie. I'm thinking of a completely different movie. So I don't think I've seen this movie. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Cool. Well, that's exciting that we have. Okay, so I'm Tabula Rasa.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

I'm thinking of a completely different British movie about naked men. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

I'll have to look up which movie I'm thinking of because I like it's got the word calendar in it in the title, I think. Maybe, yeah. Yeah, no, that's not this. Okay. Not that same movie. All right. So I will catch you up on what happens on this movie, but um, let me quickly tell you what we're gonna talk about. Okay. Um, we're gonna talk a lot about masculinity in lots of different sort of areas of life and the way, like what masculinity is and and how a man knows he's a man and those sorts of things. We're gonna talk about body image actually when it comes to men. We're gonna talk about uh within the masculine, under the masculinity umbrella, there's a lot of things, including like who makes the money, who is ogled about um, again, body image and uh sexuality. And we're gonna talk quite a bit, well, not quite a bit. There's a there's a chunk about sexuality that we need to talk about because this movie sort of skirts around some gay characters without actually digging into them, which is an interesting thing. And I think I'm gonna talk about the context of 1997. I do want to say phrasing. Thank you. Sorry. It skirts around the character's um relationship without actually showing us a whole lot about it. Um, we're gonna talk a bit about a father-son dynamic here. There's a the the sort of main character is doing what he's doing because he he doesn't have enough money to pay child support. And so his relationship with his son, who is about 11, maybe 12. I want to talk about humor as a vehicle for cultural and societal critique and and the wisdom of that. And we're gonna talk a little bit about our dad. Just a little. Okay. Okay. So let me tell you, since I'm I'm not reminding you about this, I have no idea what's in this movie, apparently. So the first like few minutes, maybe the first two or three minutes, are this 1970s film about the town of Sheffield in uh in the UK, which is known for steel, for making steel, and how the steel is like the heart

Plot Breakdown And Why It Works

SPEAKER_02 5:49

of this town. And then the screen says 25 years later, and we see a town just in complete disrepair, um, and you know, things falling apart. And we meet a man who goes by gaz. His name is Gary Schofield, I think. Um, but he goes by gaz and his best friend Dave and Gaz's son, Nath, and they are stealing a big steel I-beam from the now shuttered mill. And um, it doesn't go well.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

And basically two men and a boy stealing an I-beam seems like it would be a difficult task.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Yeah, it doesn't go well. Um, they they do not make it out with the I-beam, and there are all various things. There's a nod to actually the brass bands, like what we talked about in brassed off, where they're trying to get out, and then we hear this brass music, and this marching band like kind of marches through the campus of the steel mill where they're trying to get this I-beam off the off the property. And um, and the kid says, Yeah, the the mill band is still going, even though the mill isn't. So it was like a nod to that culture that we saw in our brass off episode. Anyway, um, so we we we see pretty immediately through show not tell that you know, these guys are out of work and they're just trying to make a couple bucks uh or quid, I guess. Um and it turns out that Gaz's ex-wife is uh with a new boyfriend whose name is Barry, and that goes unremarked that his name is Gary and the new boyfriend's name is Barry, but I noticed. But anyway, um, and Gaz gets a notice that she's suing for full custody. I don't think that's what they call it in Britain, but she's she's trying to get full custody because he's 700 pounds behind on child support that he's supposed to be paying. And he's like, come on, I'm on the dole. Like, how am I supposed to pay that? We see him and a whole bunch of other steel workers in the job club. I'm putting quotes around that because that's what they call it. It's, you know, sort of the career center. They're all sitting around waiting for, you know, jobs that just aren't materializing. And there's the kind of banter that I assume men have, because that's I've seen it in movies like this where they're like, you know, teasing and ribbing one another about various things, including the fact that Dave is fat. He's not particularly fat, but he is a big guy. I guess he's like thin fat. Anyway. Um and then we learn that there has been a recent Chippendales review in the town that saw 400 women show up to, you know, yell and scream at these strippers, or it's coming. And the guys actually go because Dave's wife Jean is there, and Gaz puts on this sort of like puffed up, like, you gonna let your woman do that kind of a thing? And Gaz and Nath sneak into the venue to find Nath being like the 11-year-old. Yes. Uh, to find Auntie Jean and like get her out of there. Dave can't follow because he can't fit through the window they slip through. We see Jean come into the bathroom and she's talking, like her girlfriends are teasing her about this, the one dancer, and she's like, I I wouldn't cheat on Dave even if I could. Like, I'm crazy about him. But then she also says, but he's kind of given up. He's just like lost all interest in everything, me, work, everything. Gaz overhears that and sort of aborts the mission of trying to get Gene out of there, grabs Nate and they leave. So, but this watching these women like kind of go crazy for this review, the stripper review, gives Gaz the idea, like, why don't we do it? And they're like talking about it in the job club, and you know, people are making fun of them or whatever. But this is a thing they've decided to do to try to make money. There's this very funny scene where they're like, you got a thousand women given 10 quid each. That's a that's a lot of quid. That's what that is. Like, you can't do the math. One of the other guys, one of the other guys goes, that's 10,000 quid. And they go, It's how much? You know, so they decide they wanna they want to do this. And basically the whole movie is about these unemployed guys putting together this strip show. So, and they're just ordinary guys. There's um, I think there are five of them who end up somewhere around there. So there's Gaz and Dave for sure. And then um, they realize that their former foreman, Gerard, Gerald, excuse me, Gerald, um takes dance lessons with his wife. So they harass this man until he agrees to help them with the choreography. Turns out Gerald has not told his wife that he's out of work and it's been six months.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

So, because he keeps thinking he's gonna get a job, and at this point, it's been so long. And there's a moment where the the guys like give Gerald a real hard time and kind of interrupted a job interview that he's in without the interviewers seeing them. And he he's basically in tears that this was his job, and the guys feel real bad and they do stuff to try and make it up to him. Anyway, Gerald is in. He's so he's sort of the choreographer, and we see some like auditions where they find a couple other guys. There's um Lomper, who is a suicidal. Um, and I say that because they see a guy having car troubles, and Dave fixes the engine, but there's a hose from the um exhaust that goes into the car, and Dave's like, all right, well, good luck. And he like walks away and then he realizes what he saw and he runs back and pulls the guy out of the car. So that's Lomper. He still lives with his mom, which is, you know, shorthand for you know, failure to launch. There's guy who they say, well, you can't dance, you can't sing. What can, you know, why are you here? And he's like, Well, there's this, and he pulls his pants down and they all are gawking.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

So his Monty is particularly full.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Right. So he's in, and then there's a fella who goes by the name Horse, who is older. I mean, they give him a hard time about being older. He doesn't look that much older than Gerald to me, but whatever. He's he's in his late 50s, but he can dance. He's a black guy and he can dance. He's the only black guy in the cast. And they're and and so most of the movie is like it's it's very funny, sort of watching them try and get this the choreography down, and like Gerald is telling them what to do and they don't get it. And then Horse like gets it and tells them how to do it in like soccer moves, and then they do it exactly the way Gerald wanted them to. Um, that's funny. Yeah. And they have like G strings made, and like uh Gene, we learn that Dave is impotent. They show us in in various ways that he is impotent. Gene finds the G string and accuses him of cheating, that it's like a woman's, and he has to tell her, like, no, we were stripping. They get caught, like a cop walks in on them practicing, and then they find the security footage of, you know, the so the cops are watching security footage of them rehearsing. Social services comes in, they're like, Does your dad dance in front of you to Nath? Like, because they uh, you know, and and Nathan's like, I mean when he's rehearsing. Um and, you know, then there like a newspaper article is written. Gerald's wife finds out because their entire home is repossessed, and she's like, you know, I could have I could have lived with it. I could have lived with losing the stuff. I could have lived with the embarrassment of having this truck pull up to the house. But that you didn't tell me. And he has to tell her it's been six months. So he had um he had had said he was out because he got the job, but then his wife leaves him. And so there's various things where like they leave and then they come back. Um we see when the cops come, we see Lomper and Guy. So the the guy who with the car suicidal, yeah, and um the guy with the full, full Monty. Um, they manage to run away and escape. And there's very funny things with them running in their G strings and like pulling sheets off of um lines. Close lines. And they climb into the um window of Lomper's house, and then they're like very close, and we see like camera cuts before they kiss, but we see the a moment between them, and then later that it's confirmed after um the guys go to Lomper's mom passes and they go to the funeral and they see um Lomper and Guy holding hands, and Gaz and Dave are talking about it, and Dave says, Well, there's nothing as queer as folk, and then he starts cracking himself up because he didn't mean it. He just meant like anyway.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Um and then the at the in the end, like Dave has had said no, he's not gonna do it, but Gaz manages to convince him he should do it. And and Gene to his wife, because when when he asked to come clean that this G string is his because he was gonna do the stripping with Gaz, he says, I'm not doing it now. And she's like, Well, why? And and he says, Look at me. And she says, I'm looking. And he says, Who wants to see this dance? And Gene says, Me. I do, Dave. So there's there's a couple of sweet moments like that. And there's a a similar, like maybe too sweet moment where uh when Gary, when Gaz comes into the venue and sees all the it's like 400 people, including men, it's not just women. And he he has a almost a panic attack and he's not gonna go. But Nath has snuck in and he's backstage and he says, You did this. You gotta go out there. And so the very final scene is the dance of them stripping, and then they um they have hats, like police caps, and they hold the caps over their crotches and then remove the G strings, and then the very final shot from behind, they hold the hats out. And the the full Monty is a British phrase that you know means the full frontal thing. And and the reason they do that is because they're ordinary guys. So they have to offer something the Chippendales didn't because Chippendales are much better built than all these guys. So there's a lot more that happens, but that's the gist of the movie. Yeah. So very few women. There's really just the two wives, um, Gaz's ex and um Dave's wife, Jean. And Gerald's wife, too. Yes, you're right. There actually, I guess there are four, because they're the three wives. There's Ga Gaz's ex-wife, Mand. There's um Dave's wife, Jean, Gerald's wife, I don't know what her name is, if she has a name. And then Lomper's mom, who we only see very briefly. Uh, but it does not pass backdown tests. None of these women talk to one another that we see, like even about the guys. Um, but so that's the gist of the film. And the reason that I put this, I didn't even mention this. The reason that I put this on the list even before the train spotting mishap. Switcheroo. Yeah. I saw this movie when it was new. And it was a time, it was 1997, it was a time I was real angry with our dad. Like, you know why in that time frame. Um, but for

Personal Context And Dad Memories

SPEAKER_02 18:22

listeners, like there were choices that our dad made in the 90s uh that um weren't so great. They weren't great choices. And I was real mad. I was big mad at dad then. And so this movie about like everything that Gaz does, like all of like all of it, every step, even the stealing the steel beans, like he's he's doing it to try and get money so he can continue to see Nate. Like it's not even about being a good dad, it's just being a dad. It's just like continuing to have Nate in his life. And I remember sort of seeing the movie and being like, yeah, well, at least he's trying, which was not fair to our dad. But that's where I was in that moment. And so it it has a sort of particular resonance from that time for me. So that's why it was kind of on the list. And in Rewatch, like none of that is there, right? Like a lot has happened, including dad's death between 97 and now, that has sort of just changed my perspective. So I that that piece of what was resonant for me when I watched it in '97 is just a memory. But that's why it was important to me at the time. So I just wanted to kind of name that. So let me talk about masculinity in this movie. It's this is one long meditation on masculinity in in many ways. From the beginning, we hear Gaz and Dave kind of the the patter is just sexism. Like

Masculinity Unpacked Through Stripping

SPEAKER_02 20:09

it's it's sexism in patter between the two of them. And I'm, you know, I'm on rewatch, I'm like, oh, why did I like this? Why did I think that guy was uh charming? But that was very intentional, right? Like these guys who for whom if I think about steelworkers in Sheffield, the town was known for steel. Like that was its identity. So these guys were steel workers, probably their dads were steelworkers, probably possibly their grandfathers were steel workers. It was like it was their identity, and then Thatcherism basically killed heavy industry, just I don't know, because it could. And they're left with they don't know what. Like flailing is the word that I would use to describe all of these men. And so there's a certain um truthiness to the patter being just straight up sexism. Like what's left to this man who's had what what he thought of as manhood sort of stripped of him, right? Uh pun intended, as the stripping continues, right? But what's interesting is that as it keeps going, there's a there's a degree of acceptance, awakening. I'm not sure what the right word is, but there's a moment when all the guys are together, they're um rehearsing at Gerald's house, and there's a magazine. I don't know if it's the wife's magazine or I because I don't think it's a nudie magazine, but it might be. But it's a women, it's it's got women in it, and the guys are looking at it. The viewer dumver sees the magazine, and the guys are like, oh, look at her. And like Lomper's like, oh her her tits are too big. And Dave's like, is there such a thing? And they're like, so they're like objectifying these women. And then one of them goes, Wait, women are gonna do that to us. And they all are like, well, like they look around, like they're like making eye contact and like letting that sit settle. And it's very disturbing to them. And there's a degree to which I think not entirely, but in the direction of like, oh shit, we've been doing this our whole lives to them. And now we see what it would feel like. We're starting to see how that feels. And it hasn't even happened to them yet. They're just thinking about the fact that it will. So, so there's that moment. There's moments of like, as I said, the guys feel really like Gerald almost cries or does cry because of the job and and the thing with his wife. And the other guys, like unironically, apologize. And they do it with Gerald has all these gnomes in his yard. So that's how they distracted him. They had like there was like a window that they ducked down below the window but held the gnomes up to like talk to each other. And like the gnomes fought, and one of them broke because they were ceramic gnomes. And so to apologize, they like fixed the broken gnome with super glue. So you can barely even tell. That's what they tell him. And they pick up a little like wheelbarrow from the um, I don't remember what it's called, but like the rummage cart. Like they at the at the church, this little like, I don't know, like one foot wide mock wheelbarrow, like for the gnomes that they give him as a gift to like say they were sorry. Then and they're completely unironic with this. And like he loves it, you know? Um and the even the moment with Lomper after they save him, they're sitting around and it's funny. It's a dark sort of humor because they're like, Why don't you do this and why don't you do that? Why don't you like call your mates? And he says, I don't have any mates. And Gaz goes, we just saved your life. We're your mates. And Lomper's like, you see the dawning, and like he gets this grin on his face. He's like, Yeah, thanks, guys. You know, like it's just like so it's funny, but but sad at the same time. But there are these moments of real humanity where these guys connect, even when, you know, I wasn't sure how it was gonna go when we we viewers see Guy and Lomper have that moment of chemistry, and we know that they are together, but the the other guys don't know. And then they find out at the funeral. And I'm watching, I'm like, how's this gonna go? And they talk about it, but they don't use any slurs, they don't kick the guys out of the group. It's just sort of like, oh, I didn't, I didn't know. Like, that's the extent of the like, did you know? I didn't know. That's that's the vibe of the reaction. So I talked about ogling and the sexuality, like so being gay doesn't rem like keeps these guys in the in the club. The not having a job. There's also attached to not having a job is like who is the breadwinner? Right. So Jean still has a job. Mand has a job, Gaz is ex. And in fact, she offers him a job. She has some sort of job um in some management role in a in a garment factory of some kind. And she offers him a job making $2.50 an hour. And like sort of the tension there is very clear. He doesn't want that job because that's not who he is, and because it's women's work. I mean, a lot of this a lot of this movie is about like men doing women's work, stripping being women's work, right? And and so that was the last one that I wanted to say, but there's there's this umbrella of like w masculinity that like with a whole bunch of stuff under it, each of them has to be re-examined. And the guys get through it through relationship with one another, and in Dave's case with Gene. And in Gaz's case with Nate, Nath, his son. And so there's something that I think actually really sweet. This movie did really, really well at the box office. Surprisingly well at the box office. I think it won some awards as well. I I think the reason that it did as well as it did is because at its heart is is about sort of human connection. And and that that's kind of what gets us through. Also the fact that humor is a vehicle, but we can come back to that.

SPEAKER_03 27:18

Where where do you want to go? So so I want to like stick with the tension that all of these men are feeling about being jobless because that is a tension, and especially men being unemployed, because that is a tension. I have felt the cult of productivity personally, and I know I feel it differently as a woman. I can

Unemployment And The Productivity Trap

SPEAKER_03 27:43

recall when my eldest was a baby and I was struggling with breastfeeding. And so when I was bottle feeding him sometimes, and I know that my hormones were out of whack and we had moved, so I was a little isolated, but I was feeling like well, anyone can bottle feed him. So I should be working. Oi. Yeah. Not like I'm not like my head was not on straight at the time. But that was this pressure of productivity that I felt. And that knowing that pressure of productivity was on me, who I do not feel that same overwhelming pressure of like breadwinner, my identity is tied up in being able to provide for my loved ones. And that identity aspect of it, um, you were saying, like, uh, you know, they're they're steelworkers, their fathers were steelworkers, their grandfathers were steelworkers, and now it's gone. I'm not gonna get into details, but you know, uh seeing teenagers in my life who feel like they, you know, something that that they define themselves as and aren't sure if they they can define themselves that way anymore, and how difficult that is as a teenager. Extrapolate that out to men in their 30s or older. And that is so heartbreaking and so difficult. And it's like it gets to when we talk about, you know, they they talk about the male loneliness epidemic, and you know, in the next breath, and I am so sympathetic to people going like, you know, men aren't lonely enough because you hear some of the things that men do, and it's awful. Um, and it's because a lot of men don't do what these men are doing, which is like finding a way to grow, finding a way to adapt, finding a way to change, turning to each other for help, for connection, for for evolving, you know, saying like, oh God, this is what we do to them. They're going to do to us. This doesn't feel good, you know, and and recognizing like that the way that they exist in the world isn't necessarily beneficial to other people. So uh, but just that pressure of like the pressure of productivity. Now, I know that's that's in some ways uniquely American. I yes, I was just gonna say that.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

I'm not I but I think the the pressure to provide is I think exactly what this film was investigating and interrogating. Um not just the pressure to provide, but the the equivalency with masculinity and providing.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

Yes. And so like so I know I will never completely understand that that sense of like if I can't provide for my family, I'm a failure as a man. I I know I will never understand that because to me it's like then you find another way, because that's what it is. But I know I feel a parallel sort of pressure because I I know the American pressure to produce. Right. And and had to ri recognize that productivity is not the rent I pay to exist. Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Right. And I I think the part of the providing thing, I mean, we when we're talking about steelworkers in the UK in the late 90s or or any of the sort of lower skilled jobs that dried up and then there weren't jobs available. I mean, like these guys did find another way. Uh, presumably it was they say that they say in the movie that it was one and done, that they didn't they didn't continue doing that. But there's also a very real sense that like these guys are going to the job club every day waiting for jobs to appear that just don't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

Um and in fact, they they're following the rules. Yeah. They're doing what they have been told would work. Yes, and except for the stealing the beam.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Well, no, uh, not even that. Like at the job club, like the the guy, the facilitator, I don't know what he is, is like, now I want you guys to start looking through the listings and like but he gives them instructions. And the moment he walks out the room, they pull out the cards and start playing cards. Okay, fair enough. Um so it's uh the club is like the the operative word in the job club. And in my research, I I never watched it, but they brought this back for a TV series, a limited TV series in the UK, uh fairly recently, like within the past five years, to see like where these guys all were now. So the same actors? I believe so. And definitely the same characters.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

And um So everyone 30 years older or whatever. Right. 20 it was like 25 years later.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

And because the original movie was like 25 years after, you know, Sheffield was this bustling steel town. And then I think they came back 25 years. And um, the guy who uh wrote it initially, Peter Cataneo. No, sorry, he was the director. Simon Beaufoy is the screenwriter. So Beaufoy came back and he brought a woman in whose name I don't have on the tip of my tongue. Um, she was in Chumbawamba, apparently. Anyway, they worked together on the on the t TV show. And some of the things that they talked about in an interview about it that I read was like, you know, I name that we have this gay couple that we know are together, but there's very little beyond the fact beyond the fact of their being together. Like we don't see much about their characters.

SPEAKER_03 33:52

I see that they hold hands, and that's that's all the physical affection we see. And we see that from quite a distance.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

And one of the things that, you know, Bo Bofoy was saying was that like he felt pressure to like cut away before they kissed, and that like it was a like it was the 90s. It was like as progressive as he felt he could be in the 90s. And so we come back 25 year years later. And I did not watch this, the TV show. I only read what he had to say about it. But what he said was, you know, we come back 25 years later and they've been together so long, they're like a married couple who like are annoyed with each other all the time. And like, and like how beautiful that is that we're able to sort of show that now. And and and the other thing that what made me think of it is that he was saying, like in the 90s, they had these job clubs. They don't even have those anymore. They don't even pretend anymore. And so that was another, like that was what made me think of it. That, you know, you find another way, yes, and like you you follow all the rules and it's not working. It's not, it's not happening the way they said it was supposed to, right? And and and what that then the implications that that then has for one's identity and sense of worthiness, right? Is is really as you are indicating, it's hard to fully grasp if one hasn't lived through it. And I think that this film is was trying to sort of show us that. And this is another piece that I wanted to talk about. Like Beaufoy and Cataneo, they wanted to talk about class. And they wanted to talk about how hard this, you know, thatcherism was on ordinary folks. And they chose to show us that with a very healthy dose of humor. And I think

1997 Context Class And Humor

SPEAKER_02 35:52

about how savvy that is, right? Like this movie did amazingly well in the UK and worldwide. Like it it did really well in America too. But in the UK, like in the early 2000s, when people asked like, what are the top 20 best British films of all time, it was in the list. I don't know if it still is, but it was very, very popular at the time. And I think that the humor was a big piece of that. It wasn't just sort of a in it wasn't just an indictment of Thatcherism. Rather, it was a character-driven story. And I think that that's what I was sort of sort of getting at. There's this heart to it because of the characters and the investment that we make in them that is really enduring. And I think so smart. Right? It's a way to like a spoonful of sugar. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So there's some like really, really funny moments. Um, I wanna circle back to Dave, who was the fat one. And I'm I I sort of put quotes around that. That's that's who he is in this movie. And like at one point, who's the actor who plays him? Do you his name is Mark Addy?

Male Body Image And Impotence

SPEAKER_03 37:32

Okay. It's not someone I'm familiar with. You said um this movie shares a is it Ewan McGregor who's in both? No, Ewan McGregor's not in Full Monty.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

The man's name is Robert Carlisle. He's gaz. He's the the main character, and he was one of the he was um the antagonist. Uh Francis Franco Begby. He was um I haven't seen train spotting either, so. Oh, okay. Um well he was the antagonist and like kind of menacing. It's a very, very different character that he plays in in the full Monty. But yeah. He also like had a mustache in train spotting and does not in full monthly. So it's just a man with a mustache. Well, that's how you know he's the evil, the evil version. Because whenever there's because you can twirl a mustache. Well, I just think about Star Trek whenever there was like an alternate universe, like the bad Spock always had facial hair. Anyway, uh so I I wanted to talk about Dave. And, you know, there's some like it it is a through line. We hear over and over and over again about how Dave is fat. You know, they when they're the guys are rehearsing at Gerald's uh lomper finds some anti-aging cream and or anti-wrinkle cream, something like that. And he's like, Does this work on you, do you reckon this works on blokes? And he Gerald's like, Stop that, you know, like, because it's his wife. And uh, and then Dave says something like, you know, there may be anti-wrinkle cream, but there's no anti-fat bastard cream. And like he says at one point, like, fat is a they say fat is a feminist issue, but I don't know from that. With the person of Dave and making him in impotent, which it I'm not guessing. Like they make it clear. He he at one point, Gerald is like confiding in him and worried he's gonna get an erection while they're stripping. And what's he gonna do? And Dave's like, you're talking to the wrong person or the wrong man, they're talking to the wrong man. And they actually had shown earlier him sort of declining when his wife tries to initiate sexy times.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

Do they does the movie explain that it's a stress related? Do they explain what's going on? They don't say no, no, just that he can't.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

And I think there's something like the the constellation of things around Dave that then becomes a body image for men that I think is really interesting that we don't often we spend so much time thinking and talking about women's body image that that I'm not sure as much screen time is given to thinking about men and body image. And so I found that really interesting. The way that that becomes a through line. That's the piece of like, am I a man? Am I still a man that Dave has to grapple with? Each of them has their own. All of them part of it is the is the joblessness. But then each of them has other things in the constellation that add up to am I still a man? And I'm like grateful, I guess, that body image was one of them, you know, that was related not just not just to impotence, but also to the fatness. Like I I feel like that was a texture that I'm grateful is in this movie, in this extended medit meditation on masculinity. I don't know that I have more to say about that, but I I wanted to like come back to that a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 41:37

I do wanna so I want to stick with this just about the the impotence aspect of it. Just uh the fact that Gene says, when he says, who wants to see this stripping? And she says, me, I do. I think there's something interesting and important and subversive about Jean making it clear that she is still uh sexually attracted to Dave. That she is sexually attracted to Dave. Especially considering the fact that in addition to body image, like in terms of how he looks, he's got body image because he's currently he's impotent, whether that's a current or or a long-term or permanent situation. One thing that I think would be wonderful would be is if it could if there could be some like inclusion of like how it's possible to have sex without an erection. Um that's not that is not part of this movie. No, that it would be out of place in this movie, frankly. No, no, no, I know. But what I'm saying is just that uh like Jean shows her love for Dave. Dave being able to show his love for Gene.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

I think if they made a movie about Dave and Gene, yeah, then finding that solution would be appropriate. In this movie, it it would have been out of place.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

But not saying not saying that that like there needs to be any kind of nitty-gritty or even that at all. But just that's like uh No, I the reason I say that is because part of And again, I haven't seen the movie.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Part of what the movie is showing us is again, am I still a man? So like he declines when she when she initiates. At one point, like he they actually start, they're in bed and they start like making out. And then he's like, I'm sorry, I gotta go. And so we're only seeing him grappling with it. He's still in the in the dealing with it process. In the grief part. Yeah. Yeah. He hasn't gotten to the like, how do I move forward? He's still in the grieving. Yeah. And and in the time frame of this movie, it wouldn't make sense. Mm hmm. Like maybe in the TV show that they did that was set 25 years ago, we could see that they found a th something. But in in in the boundaries of this film from 97, that would have been.

SPEAKER_03 44:13

It only takes place over a couple months or weeks or however long. Yeah. And that that's just the considering the film is about finding ways around limitations.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

Is it about finding ways around limitations?

SPEAKER_02 44:33

It's I'm not sure if I would characterize it quite that way. I mean, it is about like it's it's about sort of inventiveness. So in that sense, yes. But we are not left feeling that that these men actually have solved anything. No, that's true. That's true. We have, and in fact, one reviewer sort of said, I wish there had been one scene kind of post-performance where we can sort of see how they feel about it, whatever. Like this is like one high moment. But what's on the other side of this performance? Yeah, next week's more of the same jobless. Yeah. It's it's it's more of the job club and playing cards and waiting for jobs to materialize that never do.

SPEAKER_03 45:26

Gerald's wife is still gone.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Yeah. Yeah. So I I'm not sure that like I would characterize it that way. Like it's more about like finding connection and joy in the midst of hard times than it is to be.

SPEAKER_03 45:43

You take a whiskey drink, you take a vodka drink. You sing the songs that remind you of the good times. You sing the songs that remind you of the better times.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Yeah, it's it's not it's not about like overcoming obstacles, I don't think. It's more about getting through them. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I say sort of the like the human connection between the men is is is the heart of it. There's and there's there's real pathos. There's one man who doesn't make the cut in the auditions. He's because he's just sort of standing there taking his clothes off without barely moving. And he's like, I can't even take my kid off right. You know, and like, yeah, it's and the guys feel real bad for him. They're like, you want a cup of tea or something? You know, like but it's so it's it's not there is hope and there is joy, but there is not solutions.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Okay. Those are I I think I have hit the kind of big buckets I wanted to talk about. Was there something I didn't know?

SPEAKER_03 46:55

Um the father-son dynamic, I don't think you're not thinking too much about that.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's thank you for reminding me. So there are moments where Gaz this is more of the masculinity. It just keeps coming back to the same thing, you

Father Son Conflict And Tenderness

SPEAKER_02 47:18

know, where so Nath is kind of running away um from Gaz because Gaz has said something like something critical. Not not horrible, just you know, he's frustrated and it it comes out in Nathan's direction. And so they he's chasing after him. And um he's like trying to get Nathan to understand. And there's clearly a a distance like this is not the they don't say I love you to one another regularly. And he says, Come on, Nath, I like you. I love you, man. I mean, he does. He comes, he he gets there. And um and that's what makes Nate come back. But there are moments throughout where like Nathan's like, you know, it's always cold at your place. Mom's house is always nice and warm. It's winter time, you know, and like he's Gaz says, I'll I'll take you to the I'll take you to a football game. Um, and Nate's like, Really? I heard that what he names a team, a professional team, I don't remember which one, are you know, are playing. And uh Gaz is like, no, I I there's a pickup game I thought we would go watch. And and Nath is like annoyed and frustrated. And Gaz is like, well, maybe we could sneak in, you know. The tension between the two is real. It gets tied up pretty quickly that I that feels like maybe too neat for me. That's why I said before, like the scene when Nathan actually gives Gaz the final like pep talk to get him to go on stage, which feels a little too neat. They need to put a deposit down on the club. They need a hundred quid to put a deposit down on the club, and they know they're gonna make, well, they think they're gonna make more, but and uh Gaz tries to get it all different ways and he can't get it. And so Nath takes him to the bank and takes it out of his account. He needs his dad to sign for it in the in the checkbook. And Nathan's like, I mean, excuse me, Gaz is like, no, don't do it. Like when you're 18, you can do whatever you want, but don't don't do this, don't do this on me. And he says, Well, you're gonna make it back. I believe you. And Gaz is like, you do? You know, so there's this under that masculinity umbrella, like being a good father, and part of that is like actually in that moment, like at the bank, we see Gaz Gaz think knows he's a fuck up. And seeing that his son doesn't think he's a fuck up, like seeing the effect that has on him is a really powerful moment. Um, and and sort of says a lot about sort of this father-son dynamic that I is beautiful, and I don't know, like I I think it's a little neater, a a little prettier than maybe truthy.

SPEAKER_03 50:23

But I I will say there there are things, there are uh times where my kids will reflect back something to me that I have said totally, that I'm like, oh my god, you you heard me and believed me. Like I'm just some lady. Totally. Totally, totally. And like, but the thing is, I I my house is warm.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

Right. You're not you're not a fuck up the way that this I mean and like I don't you're not I don't think you believe yourself to be a fuck up the way Gaz believes himself to be a fuck up. You maybe don't think that you're like as influential. Yeah. Like has the have the the impact that you end up having with your kids because they're your kids. That's and it's it's similar, but it's different enough that um and and I say the truthiness is not that Nate would believe him, but there is sort of like I guess what it is is that there are moments, clear moments in the beginning where Nathan is fed up with his father. And the the resolution of that feels too neat. That's specifically what feels too neat to me. Yeah. Not that the father and son would love one another. Obviously, they love one another. It's specifically like the moments of, except for the moment when he says, I like you, I love you, the actual like conflict to say, to like kind of work it out, to talk it out. Um I don't that didn't feel like enough for all of the reasons that Nathan was annoyed with as dad.

SPEAKER_03 52:13

I do wonder if this is another thing where it's hard for us to relate because the the the specific yearning of a son for his father's approval and is different than it is like between mothers and sons and mothers and daughters.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

That's fair. Yep. That is. Thank you. Well, let me see if I can sum up what we said. This movie is a meditational masculinity. Okay, see you next week. Um, but seriously though, this movie is predominantly a meditation about masculinity and what it means to be a man. Uh and and it really allows these five men to question. They're forced to question, and the movie allows them to really explore all of the

Key Takeaways And Next Week

SPEAKER_02 53:01

ways, the pat ways a society has told us that make a man a job, a a breadwinner, you know, providing sex, um oggling women, uh, being a being a dad. Oh, heterosexuality, even, then they're not what make men men. They go with uh they they're they're correlated, not causal. And this movie, these characters are forced to interrogate those things, and we see them flailing their way through and getting through in part by finding one another. Um, so that that that's my that's that's the the biggest thing that we talked about. We talked briefly about using this, using humor as a vehicle for societal critique and how smart that is, Spoonful of Sugar, uh with the medicine, and how wildly successful it was with this movie in particular. We spent quite some time talking about body image, male body image around fatness, but also around impotence. And then you reminded me that we wanted to talk a bit about the father-son dynamic here, which I think the conflict is between father and son is resolved a little too neatly uh in terms of storytelling. But also it's a 90-minute film that, you know, we need to get through. And and and so I I'm not mad at the movie makers. I just notice. So that's what I got. What are you bringing me next week, Em?

SPEAKER_03 54:42

So next week I'm bringing you my deep thoughts on You've Got Mail. Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

The rom com to end all rom com.

SPEAKER_03 54:50

The tie-in to AOL. Yeah. All right. Well speaking of product placement. I'll look forward to talking about that. Yeah, I'll see you then.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember, pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head?