He-Man and the Masters of the Universe: Deep Thoughts About the Pop Culture Endurance of the Fantasy Barbarian Soldier from SPACE!

By the Power of Grayskull!

On Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit this week, Emily returns to her first pop culture crush: He-Man, aka, Adam, prince of Eternia. As a very small child, she loved the cartoon He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, and she was somewhat disheartened to learn that this beloved staple of her Gen X childhood was created specifically to sell He-Man toys. The animation, storytelling, and even the cultural commentary (via little public service announcements at the end of each episode) were all in service of Mattel convincing children to bug their parents to buy action figures.

But something funny happened on the way to the cash grab. Mattel created a pop culture phenomenon, in part because they created a cult classic cartoon by catering to the exact interests of their target audience of five-to-ten year old boys. The toy company's market research determined that demographic was most interested in soldiers, space technology, and fantasy barbarians--so Mattel shrugged and gave it to them, thereby creating an enduring pop culture franchise that remains beloved 40-some years later. (Mattel also created a queer icon with some serious homoerotic subtext, but that flew right over baby Emily's head at the time).

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Mentioned in this episode:

How He-Man Changed the World & How It All Fell Apart: The Story of The Masters of the Universe

Tags

deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, pop culture, animation, storytelling, cultural commentary, cult classic, sci fi, gen x childhood, nostalgia, gen x nostalgia, he-man, skeletor, mattel, social, television, masters of the universe, nicholas galitzine

This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.

We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find. 

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Transcript

Family Is Who Raises You

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You saw me meet my mother, and then I have to forget that. But man at arms, even though he is not my birth father, he raised me, comforted me, has been my father since I was a little girl. He is my father, just as anyone who takes care of you and raises you and is your parent. And so it was like it was this lovely message about like the importance of family being the family who cares for you. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just up culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit. Because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1980s era cartoon, as well as the live-action film from 1987, He-Man and Masters of the Universe, with my sister, Tracy Guy Decker, and with you.

Show Intro And Quick Follow Ask

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Real quick before we dive in, I am going to ask you, listener, if you haven't already, please follow Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit on wherever you get your pods. If you are on Apple, you can hit the follow button, the plus sign. If you're on Spotify, it is a button that says follow. Thank you very much. We really appreciate it. Now that I've said that, let's dive in. So, Tracy, I know you are familiar with He-Man, and you actually have more vivid memories of my enjoyment of this show than I do. Because it ran from 1983 to 1984 originally, although it was in syndication for many years after that. And I was like in my deep He-Man phase as a very little girl. But

Childhood Memories And The She-Ra Fight

SPEAKER_02 2:01

tell me what's in your head about He-Man. The first thing that comes to mind is how much you loved it. The second thing that comes to mind is that I really liked She-Ra when it came out. I thought it was really cool. And you dismissed it out of hand because it did not follow the pattern established by He-Man, because it should have been She Woman if it was He-Man.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

And so you wouldn't even give it the time of day. And I remember being fairly like frustrated with you because it was a really good show, in my opinion, and better than He-Man in many ways.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

So those are the first two things that come to mind. And then I start to remember some of the characters, like not their names, not their names at all. But I loved the two regular good guy female characters. So I looked it up. Tila was the one who wore the brass bra, and I really liked Tila. And then there was the sorceress who dressed like a bird, sorta.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

And I think she could transform into a bird, too. Yeah. I dug her a lot. There was a little like floating ghost thing. Orko. Orko. I dug him. He had a weird high nasal voice, I think. And was like the comic relief a little bit. I liked him. He-Man's and Prince Adam's steed, although I don't think he rides in when he's Prince Adam.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

He doesn't the tiger, the like green tiger, who's like kind of afraidy cat that I remember enjoying that kind of juxtaposition of this like big strong tiger who was like kind of afraid of everything.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

And in fact, I was talking with one of my partners about the show, and he was like, I never watched it, but it looked like super macho and stuff. And I was like, well, Battle Cat cried a lot.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

Like that's what's in my head. I don't remember any of the plot. Obviously, I remember Skeletor.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

We all remember Skeletor because he's a meme now. But I don't remember any of the plot. I don't remember why Skeletor and He-Man were fighting.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

I don't remember how the power of Gray Skull worked, only that it did. And it turned like a normal, like space dude who carried guns into like a barbarian who wore fur underpants. But I don't know why or how.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Okay. It doesn't like the show didn't know why I either. So okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

So there were, I could have done a much deeper dive. There was like an hour-long YouTube video that was like, here is the full lore of the human universe. And I was just like, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, no.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

But you loved this show as a child. And so it was hilarious in the past couple days while you were prepping for today's episode. When you were like, I almost died of boredom watching this TV show. Because I remember when we were children and you would be like, let's watch He-Man. And I'd be like, okay. I guess so. I mean, it was broadcast, so nothing else was on. So I watched it. Yeah. But anyway, that's what I got. But tell me, besides what I've already said, why are we talking about He-Man today?

SPEAKER_02 5:22

So He-Man it has this odd place in my pop culture memory, in that it holds this place in my heart. I don't really remember consuming it, but it like has this big shadow

Why He-Man Still Has A Shadow

SPEAKER_02 5:41

over my childhood. I remember the toys, and that's the whole point. The TV show came about because they are advertisements. They were advertisements for Mattel Toys. The toys came first. But the thing is, the franchise became much bigger than the toys. And the level of pop culture affection for this character and this like world building such as it is is so beloved. So you sent me a shirt for my birthday many years ago that I still have and wear regularly, that has skeletor. It says, I don't like to feel good, I like to feel evil, that I wear regularly. And I get more comments on that shirt. People are like, Skeletor! They're so excited to see it. And I was actually, I was out grocery shopping. I wasn't thinking about what shirt I was wearing. I was out grocery shopping and like from down the aisle, a guy behind the meat counter saw me and he was like, Skeletor. And this guy, he was probably in his late 20s. Oh my god. He was a kid. Yeah, he did not live through Key-Man originally. So, like, there is something so enduring about these characters. Well, speaking of, we're recording this like the week that the new movie's being released.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

Exactly. So, way to go on topical choices, then.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Did you know when you scheduled this? I didn't know. I knew there was a movie coming out. I was thinking it was like much later this year. I didn't realize it was so soon. So I find it fascinating that what was like a cash grab, that there were parents groups that were up in arms, horrified that they were doing this. That, you know, on a previous episode, we had Aaron Reynolds on to talk about log driver's waltz, talking about how they were not allowed to have advertisements in Canada. Yeah, in Canada, this show would have been illegal. Yeah, this show would have been illegal, but has such staying power and is so beloved that there's something that blows my mind about that because of the intersection of art and commerce. And how, like, as a parent, I am kind of horrified at the idea of like, yeah, we're selling crap to kids, and yet at the same time, they created something that's beloved and enduring. And I really want to think about that and talk about that. Yeah. I let's get into that. Cause I think we have talked briefly about that in the past, about like some of the advice that you give to your kids. I want to circle back to that. But yeah, we'll get there. We'll get there. So that's part of it. There's also part of like, why did I love it so? Like, why was that when I was not interested in She-Ra? And it was because of like the pattern break, I was not able to articulate it at the time. It wasn't until we were adults that I told you that's why I didn't like She-Ra.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

Really? Yeah. Because in my head, it's from when you were little and you were like, oh, that's funny how I have edited my memories. Because in my memory, like five-year-old Emily was like, No, it should be She Woman, and I'm not watching it.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Um but so like I want to kind of unpack what was exciting to me about this show. And I mean, it was the muscular men. Which it was.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

It definitely was. There was no question in my mind that for you, that's what it was. Because it's cut because even at the time, you were five and I was eight, and I was like, I like this chick. She's cool. I want to be like her. And you're like, No, this man, he's cool. You look at him, he's half naked.

unknown 9:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

I liked it when Skeletor was like intimately involved in his schemes instead of sending his minions who were like covered in fur and ugly.

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Skeletor, but Skeletor's a skeleton.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

He's all muscular too. Oh, but he has muscles on skulls. He's yeah, he's his face is a skull, but the like the rest of him very muscular. He's jacked. He's very jacked. And Skeletor and He-Man are the original like enemies to lovers.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

I mean, they're not. They're not, but for you, they are. Well, you've seen that commercial from uh from England. I know that they are. I know people ship them and an enemy. I'm just saying, like, enemies to lovers predates this show in the 80s. That's what I'm saying. For you, they're the OG. But for culture, they're not the OG. For culture, okay, yes. Lizzie Bennett and Mr. Darcy are the original. Probably there's something even before that that Austin was reading, you know? Like, anyway, okay. All right, we digress. We digress. Oh my God.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

So let me give you a couple of postcards from the destination. Yeah. This is gonna be a little bit incoate because I was watching it and like my 12-year-old wandered in and was just like, what are you watching? And my spouse came in at some points. He's just like, wow, things have really progressed since the 80s. And like, and there were times where like, I don't know what the heck I'm gonna talk about. Like, as I'm watching some of these. And like the first one I like, I watched the very first episode of the first season, and I was like, this is so boring. You told me that. And part of it was because I was just watching it. Like when I found that I was like, I'm working on a craft project, I'm working on a craft project, so I'm watching as I'm doing something with my hands. Like, that was much easier to do instead of paying close attention. Anyway, there are several things I want to talk about. As I mentioned, I want to talk about how Mattel created this enduring artistic legend that is beloved because they wanted to sell toys. Yeah. And like what that means and how that works. And like a lot of this, I'm coming like kind of blank and gonna need you to help me figure it out. Yeah. Okay. So I want to talk

Rewatch Notes And What Holds Up

SPEAKER_02 12:09

about like how it worked that they did, like what they did right, because they did market research before creating it. So I'm gonna talk about some of the things that they did to kind of and some of this is just gonna be history. I'm gonna give you history. So they ended each episode with a moral of the story. I do remember that. I remember like Prince Adam looking directly, or sometimes as he-man, like looking directly at the camera. I mean, it was a drawing, but and like telling me what I just had watched. Yeah. Like what my takeaway was. And like some of that was just like the 80s was like it's a very special episode. Like everything in the 80s had a moral. But how that was partially kind of to make sure that Mattel had like a cover its ass. Like, no, no, no, we're good for kids. But there was actually something quite good and compelling in that, and that that they really were kind of doing something there. So I want to talk about that. I want to talk about how there was actually some pretty reasonably decent gender representation. It's surprisingly Bechtel adjacent. It's hard to say because it's, you know, a TV show, so each episode is different. So each episode might not pass, but as a franchise, it certainly passes. Yes. And then I do want to specifically talk about the 1987 film, starring Dolph Lundgren as He-Man, also starring Christina Pickles as the sorceress, Frank Langela as Skeletor, just perfect, did an amazing job. And then Courtney Cox has a starring role. What? Courtney Cox. She must have been really young. Oh yeah. She plays a teenager. Okay. So she's a human teenager who gets involved in the whole thing. I see. So I want to talk a little bit about how the show kind of winks at the audience a little bit, which was missing from the movie, because I kind of remember seeing the movie. I think I saw it. There are a couple scenes where it was like, this looks familiar, and like dismissing it out of hand because it didn't feel like my He-Man. And the winks at the audience, and like there's a specific character that was missing that bothered me. And then I really want to talk about the homo eroticism and queer subtext and how that relates to why I liked it. So those are some of the things. Oh, and I do want to talk about the animation. So those are some of the postcards from the situation. Well, remind me of the show because, like, I told you the sum total of my memory, which is like four characters, and the fact that there was a moral and that the cat cried. So the very beginning of He-Man starts with the monologue. It says, I am Adam, Prince of Eternia, and defender of the secrets of the castle Greyskull. This is Kringer, my fearless friend. Fabulous secret powers were revealed to me the day I held aloft my magic sword and said, By the power of Grey Skull, I have the power. Kringer became the mighty battle cat, and I became He-Man, the most powerful man in the universe. Only three others share this secret: our friends, the Sorceress, Man at Arms, and Orko. Together we defend Castle Greyskull from the evil forces of Skeletor. So that is how every episode begins. So Adam is the son of King Randor and Queen Marlena, who is a human astronaut who crash-landed on Eternia. She was a million miles away from Earth. Oh, we find that out in the second episode of the show. And we never, now, again, I did not do deep dive, so it's probably answered somewhere. But generally, we don't know. I learned the fabulous secrets when I held aloft this sword and said, by the power of Gray Skull, I have the power. What made you think to do that?

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Why did you do that?

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Yeah. I don't know why Castle Gray Skull is so important, so special. Or fragile. Or yeah. Yeah, it needs to be defended. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

But the sword has like a little inscription on the back that says, Hold aloft. Say these words.

SPEAKER_05 16:17

Emergency.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

So Prince Adam does not tell his parents. He does not tell Tila, who is his best friend, and Man at Arms' adoptive daughter. We don't know Man at Arms has a name. I don't remember what it is. It's mentioned at some point. Oh, that's not his name. That's his title. Okay. He's Man at Arms. Got it. So I'm sure Tila at some point finds out that Prince Adam is He-Man. I don't know how they don't know because it's not like He-Man wears a mask. Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:52

I guess like and then Adam doesn't wear glasses. So it's not only like Clark can.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:57

Just he takes his clothes off and they're so blinded by his flesh.

unknown 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

And so everyone's always mad at Prince Adam because he would not help out there.

unknown 17:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Well, they don't know that cringer and battlecat look pretty much exactly the same, except that Battle Cat wears a mask. He does wear a mask and he wears a saddle.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

How many green tiger wears a mask?

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Well, now I can't recognize him. Who's that green tiger with the mask? And where did cringer go?

SPEAKER_02 17:34

So Skeletor wants control of Castle Grey Skull. Again, not entirely clear why. Are he and King Radnor? Is that what Randor? Are they brothers or something? I think we find out later. Yes. I don't know. Like I just saw something in the in the way. Oh no, I'm thinking of the Lion King. What's interesting is the very first episode, there is no like origin story or anything. It's just like other than the fact that Adam starts every episode with that with that same voiceover. Voice over. So we just start, and like, you know what? That makes sense with the 80s TV shows. Yeah. So we just start right off with this is Skeletor, like this is how I will finally defeat He-Man. And he has a new thing, and he calls in all like call doesn't he call them the horde?

SPEAKER_03 18:37

I think they're the horde.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

Yeah. So there are several minions that he uses all the time. There's Evil Lynn. So it's like Evelyn, but her name's Evil Lynn.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Oh, oh, does she wear like blue? She's real sexy too. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. All the weeks.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

I liked her.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

I liked her.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

And then there's Beast Man and then Merman. Merman's really bumbling, and he has a weird voice that like sounds like that. Yeah. He and he makes a lot of mistakes and he's really bumbling. Yeah, I remember this show better than I thought. Yeah. And there's always some sort of thing going on. What's interesting about Eternia is that it is both kind of medieval, like barbarian world, right? Because we've got a king and queen, people have swords, but it is also futuristic because people have laser guns. Right. They are riding like these like floating scooter things that have laser guns. And man at arms is an inventor, and he's always inventing things, as is Orko, who uses magic, and like space travel is possible in this world. Right. Well, Marlena's an astronaut. Yes. Yes. So it's very, very like interesting how all of this works out. And in fact, in the Masters of the Universe live action movie with Dolph Lundgren, they were not able to, and I this was I feel like why I didn't like the movie. Orco was always my favorite character. He's like the like kind of a floating ghosty kind of guy. He's got an O on his like a floating robe. Yeah. But a short one. Short one with golden eyes and like no face. But like black. Like those things in Star Wars that sell droids. Yeah. The oh no, I've forgotten their names. But yes. Yeah. So he it was gonna because he floats, it was gonna be like really difficult to create him in 19 with 1980s. 1987 special effects. Special effects, especially for a relatively low budget movie. Yeah. So they created a different character who was also an inventor, and he invented something called a cosmic key that could send you anywhere. And so in an attempt to get away from Skeletor, it was He-Man, Man at Arms, Tila, and this new character, Gildor, who was a Thenurian, which is basically like a very little kind of dwarf-like character. They were like, we don't have time to program it, we'll just go anywhere. And they end up in on Earth. And so that's how they meet Courtney Cox. Courtney Cox, and her boyfriend. Yeah. So it's fascinating, like all of this just random shit. So I want to get into like the history of how this came to be. So in 1976, George Lucas approached Mattel and said, New movie coming out. Would you like to do the merchandising for the toys? And part of the reason why they said no, but not the entire reason. Like part of it was they were just like, This looks like ridiculous shit. No. But part of it was also

How Mattel Built A Toy Empire

SPEAKER_02 21:49

George Lucas gave them a very difficult timeline of we want to try to get this out for Christmas 1977, which was a very, very difficult timeline. And Mattel said, No. And that was a very, very Very stupid decision on Mattel's part. Right. I couldn't tell you, I don't remember which toy company said yes, but you know, obviously there were toys. There were toys, and they made all the money because I had those toys. We all did. So Mattel was not doing well. And so after that happened, they started thinking, like, okay, we need to try to figure out a way to like get more toys in kids' hands. Now, back in the late 60s, they had a TV show that was, and I'm blanking on the name of the toy cars that Mattel has. The Hot Wheels, thank you. They had a Hot Wheels TV show that the was successfully like fought against because other toy companies were like, this is not fair. They can't have a like a 30-minute advertisement. And Mattel won. No, no, not at the time. Oh, they lost. Well, I'm not clear on exactly what happened, but the show ended and there were tightened restrictions, but then Reagan became president. Oh. And so there was a lot of deregulation. So all throughout this, Mattel was working on toys. They specifically wanted to appeal to the demographic of five to ten-year-old boys, and they were doing market research. And their market research found that five to ten-year-old boys were most interested in barbarians, army men or soldiers, and space. And so they were in the late 70s, they were kind of coming up with the prototype of like He-Man, basically. That would be all three of those things. All three of those things. So meanwhile, Conan the Barbarian movie was coming out, and the movie approached Mattel and said, Hey, you want to do our merchandising? They're like, Yeah, sure. They got pretty far into it and then discovered that it was going to be an R-rated movie, not so good for five to 10-year-old boys. And so mutually, they each mutually severed the contract. It took a little while for the deregulation about TV shows and stuff like that to go through. So Mattel was going forward with He-Man toys, and so they were introducing it with comic books. So the toys did exist before the TV show did. So they had comic books. They introduced it through DC, where Superman met He-Man. Really? Oh yeah. Yeah. Skeletor controlled Superman. So Superman had to fight He-Man.

unknown 24:43

Why?

SPEAKER_02 24:44

I know. Now, all of this I know because of there was a wonderful YouTuber, and I will link to the this particular video in the show notes, that gave all of this history. It was fascinating. But Mattel wanted more because not all five-year-olds, they want to hook them young. Not all five-year-olds can read comic books. So they finally got to the point where they were able to, because of the deregulation, because thanks, Reagan, they were able to put together the TV show using the same artists who had been creating this He-Man art from the very beginning, from the late 70s. At this point, the Conan the Barbarian folks got annoyed and sued them. They lost because Mattel could show receipts that they'd been working on this for years. Yeah, yeah. We talked about that when we did the Beastmaster episode. So I'm telling all of this because it was a cultural phenomenon. Like everybody loved it. Now, some of it was like they flooded the zone. I mean, like it they didn't just do a Saturday morning cartoon, because that's what was common. They did five days a week. It only ran for two seasons, which blew my mind. But each season was 65 episodes. There were 130 episodes total of the original run. And it ran from 1983 to 1984 because they ran five days a week, Monday through Friday. How did they get the stations to they syndicated? And part of the reason why they syndicated was because they couldn't get the Saturday morning cartoon stations to accept it. To bite it. To bite. Oh. And then it worked out in their favor. It worked out in their favor. But the thing that I find really fascinating is that because they did this market research and they're like, what do boys like? All right, let's give it to them. It's this beloved franchise 43 years later. Yeah. More than 40. I mean, they've been they started working on it in the late 70s, like nearly 50 years later. It is a franchise that is an undeniable part of Gen X culture and beyond. And younger. Everybody Gen X and younger. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They said, what do boys want to watch? All right, let's give it to them. Yeah. And they what I think is interesting is like they wanted to sell toys, but they didn't say, like, we want, we're going to give them the toys that we're making. They said, we'll give them the toys that they want. Let's make the toys they want rather than sell them the toys we made. Yeah. And they're like, well, we'll tell stories that make sense around the toys that they want. Not that the stories make sense, but they do. I mean, like they have a beginning, middle, and end, at least. They are coherent. And they give like they have these coherent, like world building that is open and ended imagination-wise that offers opportunity for play. Mm-hmm. Because you could buy Castle Gray Skull. You could buy Skells World Lived in Snake Mountain. You could buy Snake Mountain. So it offered these open-ended opportunities for play within the things that children wanted. And so it's we talked a little bit recently about listening to children. There's something kind of wonderful about that. Well, I think there's something really interesting too in the morals that you had forgotten. But as I remember, and it's been a long time, but my recollection is that they were sort of like citizenship lessons, or that's the wrong word, but like civilization lessons, like about being courteous

Morals, Strong Women, And Tila’s Story

SPEAKER_02 28:21

and about like being friendly and being kind. And like, and I kind of even like my recollection of like Battle Cat being like anxious and crying all the time. I feel like there were also like social emotional learning lessons within those things as well.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

And so there's something really like there's an interesting tension that I'm finding generative and satisfying in taking like little boys being like soldiers, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

And like barbarians, yeah, and space, yeah. And then like putting social emotional learning around that.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Like there's something like really like, yes, but in a responsible way. I mean, subversion is often responsible, but yeah, like using the things to which these young boys are drawn naturally, giving them the opportunity for imaginative play, which you've already named, but putting then these guardrails around it about like treating people with respect, about like to my recollection, like Battle Cat is never shamed for being afraid or for crying, right?

SPEAKER_03 29:29

Like he's comforted for it, you know? And there's so like all of like the social emotional learning around barbarians and soldiers and like laser, laser ray, like ray guns, that there's something, and I'm sure that the stories are reductive, but we're also talking about five to 10-year-old boys.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

So, like, how much nuance can we actually give them? So I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

I'm like actually feeling like when we first talked about it before we hit record, I'm like, oh my God, money grab. Like our like I even wrote in our notes like our entire childhoods were just one long commercial.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

But wrapped around the commercial was this actually sort of responsible pedagogy on the part of Mattel. One of the episodes that I saw was so Tila, as I mentioned, she is Man at Arms' adoptive daughter. And so she is talking to him in this episode. He has invented something that allows you to like view your memories. And so Queen Marlena is viewing her memory of Crash Landing on Eternia. And Tila is saying, like, I wish I could see a memory of my mother. And she asks Man at Arms about her parents, and he says, you know, your father was one of the most honorable men I ever knew. He died in battle. And she says, Well, what about my mother? And he says, I made a promise that I would not tell you about your mother. And so there's one person who can tell her it's an oracle in a dangerous place. And so she goes by herself to the oracle in the dangerous place, and He-Man goes after her to help because she can take care of herself, but this is not a place to go by yourself. So she goes and the oracle shows her what happened. She is the sorceress's daughter. And the sorceress, when she was a baby, the man at arms found the baby in the sorceress's nest as a condor. And the sorceress realizing after her husband had died that her child would always be in danger if people knew that she was her child. And so she asked the man at arms to raise her and please keep their relationship secret. And she comes and says to Tila, like, You are my daughter. I love you. Someday we will be able to be together as mother and daughter, but it's not today. And we will be very powerful together, but you're still in danger, something along those lines. So I need to erase your memory of this moment. But someday we can do this. And then at the end, the moral of the story. Yeah. Tila says, You saw me meet my mother, and then I have to forget that. But man at arms, even though he is not my birth father, he raised me, comforted me, has been my father since I was a little girl. He is my father, just as anyone who takes care of you and raises you and is your parent. And so it was like, it was this lovely message about like the importance of family being the family who cares for you. Yeah. And it was just like, I was sitting there going, like, oh.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

I was like, Tila, man in arms.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

So and like, so so yeah, Mattel took their responsibility seriously. Or at least the writers they hired.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Well, they hired writers who took it seriously. So I mean, somebody, I don't think that's an accident. I don't think that happens by coincidence.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

Yeah. And that like that gets into like so the surprisingly Beckdell adjacents that that was a moment where so it was a show created specifically for little boys. It's toys specifically created for little boys. But there are strong women throughout it. Tila is consistently shown to be very capable. He-Man did have to come rescue her in this scenario, but he's like saying, like, oh, I know she can handle herself. This is not a place to go by yourself.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Yeah. So it's more about support than about rescue.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Yes. Although he does have to rescue her because someone comes in anyway. But the sorceress is the most powerful being in Eternia. And when someone would say thank God, they say thank the sorceress. Or sorceress bless you, that sort of thing. Huh. So, like, there's definitely a sense of strength there. Another episode I saw, they turn to Queen Marlena for scientific help. That sort of thing. So it would be something that man-at-arms would usually do, but he is the one who is in trouble. So she's like, okay, I'll look at his stuff. I don't necessarily understand how he does his things, but I do have a scientific background. And then not always, but sometimes Eva Lynn is Skeletor second in command. So there are strong women throughout. So there's a reason why you were like, yeah, I really like Tila. I really like Sorceress. Like there are people that are like cool to watch in this. So it feels more balanced than you might expect for a show where like we want to appeal to little boys who like barbarians and soldiers and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

To sell them toys.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I think that gets to some of the like where we started when you were like, I don't know where I'm going with this. Because I think when we start from that premise, then there is a an impulse to therefore dismiss the art that is created because it was created for the wrong reasons. But I think that that is narrow-minded. And I it's

When Commercial Art Still Matters

SPEAKER_01 35:12

the same kind of impulse that dismisses genre friction, frankly, that sort of says, like, no, there's a secret sauce.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

And if you actually have instructions for how to build your fiction, then you must be doing it wrong because it's actually inspiration that comes from, I don't know, God or the sorceress.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

And yeah. And therefore, like it's somehow illegitimate.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

And I think what you're seeing, and the reason there's cognitive dissonance, is that like legitimate stories and lessons and pedagogy and art that continues to appeal was generated out of these wrong reasons. I'm putting quotes around wrong reasons, this commercial reasons, which there is cognitive dissonance around that. As art makers, like how many times have we been told, like, don't chase the money because it always runs faster. You have to make art that like you want to make. And then if it's right, it'll find its audience or whatever, you know, whatever those lessons are that we get as artists. T-Man didn't do that. It did not do that. And maybe it did. Right. Like, we've also talked about the power of constraint and guardrails and the like the creative power of that. So, what if we looked at this as instead of like Mattel saying we want to make money by selling toys? What if we're actually looking at the writers? Because you named them a little while ago. And we sort of say a writer is given the task. You have to write a compelling story. Here are your constraints. And then they did. And they gave us characters that are interesting. And they gave us storylines that stay with people.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

And like a villain who has someone way too young to have watched the original episode shouting his name in the grocery store.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

So maybe that's like, so today you watch Tila. Maybe that's the lesson, actually, is that yeah, Mattel maybe did it for the wrong reasons, but they're business, actually. Like they did it for the only reasons businesses ever do it. And then they were smart enough to hire writers who cared about their craft and or whatever, cared about kids, all of the above, and used the constraint of like trying to make these storylines appeal so that we can sell toys, a creative constraint.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and they also, not just the writers, but also the artists who were doing the concept art, because that had I'm thinking about the constraints of concept art that can then be turned into plastic figurines. Cause they'd already, I don't know, the protocol researcher, but the proto but deciding that a five and a half-inch toy that has like certain things like what could be flexible and what couldn't be, like those kinds of constraints as well can be really fascinating for the people doing the hand-drawn animation based and like before that the people doing the concept art, like seeing the original concept art is fascinating. Because it looks just like and then not at all like Mike. What we what we landed on. Yeah. We're getting close to the end. I do not want to end this episode without talking about homoeroticism in queer subtext.

unknown 38:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

We can save animation for the shit we forgot to say, but we gotta talk about homoerocism before we talk about He-Man on to on Deep Thoughts about Stupid Shit. So, what you got?

SPEAKER_02 38:51

There's no reason within the story why anyone can't know that Adam is He-Man. Like, it's not really explained, other

Queer Subtext And Closet Metaphors

SPEAKER_02 39:00

than like the delight of dramatic irony. Would Prince Adam be in danger if people knew? I mean, maybe like if Skeletor knew, that might but like But he's already in danger as the prince, yeah. And there's definitely no reason why like Tila can't know and why his parents can't know. So now that gets to a little bit of the I talked about the show winks at the audience. And so like some of that is like it is partially it's fun for the kids to be like, oh yay, oh yay, it's this moment. And some of it is they can sell more because they can sell Prince Adam and they can sell He-Man. Yeah. And that is also part of the reason, one of the other reasons why I think I didn't like the Dolph Lundgren film is he's He-Man the entire time. You never Prince Adam. And I was like, no, no, no, no, we gotta see like we have him say, I have the power, but then like, no, no, no, we gotta see him transform. Yeah, come on. But as a metaphor for being in the closet, it is unmatched. Yeah. Yeah. Especially considering his battle cat is named Cringer. So, like, as He-Man, he is out and proud. Like, he is just I mean, sun's out, guns out. Yeah, exactly. Sky's out, thighs out. He is fully leather daddy. I mean, like fur daddy, like everything.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

It's not leather, though. It's he's not a leather daddy. Like it's I don't know where daddy. He's just yeah, I mean, he's wearing harness daddy. Yeah, and like a like fur underpants. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The battle shorts they call them. Yeah. I did some research for a hangout recently.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Yeah. So like he is fully like, this is me. Look at my rippling pecs. And like just fully embracing his sexuality.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

Yeah. His masculinity. As Prince Adam, doesn't he wear pink? Like a oh, it's purple. Which is associated with royalty. But but it's like lavender, isn't it? It is lavender, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

But that's also like so lavender is also kind of associated a little bit with like like a lavender marriage. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so there is this sense of like he has this dual role, like he's hiding. So he's as Adam, he is a upright cishet, mild-mannered journalist. Yes. Who is expected to marry Tila at some point. Oh, I didn't know they were romantically connected. According to Wikipedia, eventually they get married. Lavender marriage. But there is Skeletor is weirdly obsessed with He-Man. Mm-hmm. For reasons that don't make a whole lot of sense. There's also the phallic image of the sword of Grey Skull.

SPEAKER_05 42:11

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

And the like, I have the power while holding a sword aloft. There's a lot there. Which also, you know, is not that I want to go digging around in my own psyche, but you know, like, I four-year-old Emily is loving this show. And then 47-year-old Emily is like loving heated rivalry.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

And it's like, I wonder if there's some relationship there.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

But there is a great deal of queer subtext, and He-Man is considered a queer icon among the like the gay community. Now, I know this just way over my head as a kid. All I knew, I liked watching He-Man. I liked watching Prince Adam as well, because his clothes are skin tight. Yeah. I mean, it's they're like leggings and yeah. No, he's got like a like a tunic over like a skin tight shirt. So like it's not quite as revealing. Yeah. And I am curious because I think I mentioned 30% of the viewership of He-Man was girls, which was not at all what Mintel expected. And that was why they created She-Ra. They're like, oh, we got this viewership. Let's capture it.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Yeah. And for you, it didn't work, but like for me, it really worked. Oh, yeah. Right. I loved She-Ra. We'll have to do another episode where I go back and watch the original and watch the reboot and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Yeah. Yeah. And like honestly, that that's undiagnosed ADHD, where I was just like, that's not the pattern. Pattern's interrupted. I can't I'm sorry. No, no, no. No. You can't do that. Like, raw is not even a word. So They lost some percentage of the their audience who was too literal. But I'm curious, like, about like who was watching who was drawn to this, because I am now realizing as an adult that a lot of the things that I was drawn to had queer subtext that I didn't recognize. Now, some of it was I have likesome men always. Right. But some of it is like there have been things where like I didn't realize it was queer coded, but I just really liked it. Yeah. And I am curious about the queer subtext of which is not even really subtext, it's just there. Like I was watching one episode where He-Man's on one of those like flying scooter things, and like, yeah, the way that they drew it, it's not like he can't sit on it like a motorcycle. He's gotta like sit with his butt hanging off. And I'm just like, why did they draw it that way?

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Like it's a drawing. You can draw it any way you want. He couldn't draw it so he can sit with it a little more comfortably, so his butt is fully on the seat.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

So I'm assuming some of the animators were doing this on purpose.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

Yeah, I wonder. I'm curious too, and we don't have time to unpack this in this episode, but maybe we'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

And we forgot to say, like, when like we talked about Highlander a couple of episodes ago and the way that that appealed to men who probably didn't see it as queer subtext, but like it's there. Like, what does that do? Like, I'm curious about the psychology of that. Like, like the people who were drawn to it because they saw themselves, because they themselves are queer. And the people who just like liked it didn't see it. And then, if we pointed out, would be like, no, it's not, you know, like all the like they were roommates, like the sort of the denial that sort of cishet mainstream, yeah, the compulsive heterosexuality that happens, that maybe Tila and Adam getting married is part of that, and like what role that serves for the kind of heterosexual folks who still wanna enjoy homoerotic cartoons, like it makes it like okay for them. Yeah. Anyway, we are though out of time. So I'm gonna reflect back to you what we talked about, He-Man, and we will definitely be recording a shit we forgot to say for our patrons.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

So listener, head on over to our Patreon, and you can get access to that. So we talked about the fact that this we spent actually kind of a lot of time talking about the fact that this cartoon show was actually created explicitly

Takeaways, What’s Next, And Goodbye

SPEAKER_01 46:57

to sell toys. But this is it's like an interesting chain. The toys were created explicitly to appeal to what little boys wanted. So, and not guessing what they wanted, but after having asked them what they want.

SPEAKER_02 47:13

Like the Mattel did research because they screwed the pooch on the Star Wars thing, they needed to like figure out a way to sell a bunch of toys rather than like guessing, like in the movie Big, right? Like, they actually were like, Well, what do little boys want? They want space, they want soldiers, and they want barbarians. So we're gonna give them all three all at once.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

And that created, I mean, we came to the realization that though initially there's a certain repulsion to that idea, and there was at the time, because of the way it ended up happening, someone at some point, multiple someones, sort of saw this as creative constraint rather than as like a mandate to sell toys. And we ended up with this franchise that has enduring staying power, in part because we named that it has strong female characters, it has interesting social emotional learning that is said outright, like they underline the thesis, the episode that you watched about Tila and like what makes a parent and its love and care. So there were things that were in some ways very subversive to what one would imagine was in line with the original idea of selling toys. And I think that is actually what made it the powerful franchise that it has become. You talked a bit about the film, the 1987 Dolph Lundgren film that has Courtney Cox in it, of all people, and how the ways in which it was and wasn't your He-Man.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

Like, I think it sounds like on Rewatch, you actually enjoyed watching it and it was kind of like a fun exercise. At the time, you didn't like it because it wasn't your He-Man, and part because it didn't have Orca in it, who was your favorite character. But also, this is interesting because of the lack of Adam as Prince Adam. We only have him as He-Man in that movie. And so, speaking of Prince Adam, we ended our conversation talking about the fact that this double life that Adam lives as Adam and He-Man is as good as you can get for a metaphor for being in the closet. And even the fact that he wears lavender when he is Adam and he wears almost nothing when he is He-Man kind of supports that sense of like this double life and needing to keep a secret and feeling sort of the anxiety of keeping the secret, which again, a little cognitive dissonance, insofar as like that created a lot of like delight in the viewers because dramatic irony is fun for the viewer.

SPEAKER_03 50:06

So like I cried laughing, thinking about the fact that like his friends don't recognize that the green tiger is the same green tiger when he puts a mask on. So, all in, it sounds to me like the original TV show is maybe not worth returning to unless you're doing something else at the same time. But there are really interesting lessons to learn from the exercise.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

I'm now looking forward to seeing the movie that gets released later this week while we're recording. It will have already been released by the time you're listening to this listener.

SPEAKER_03 50:41

So, anyway, thank you for reminding me of this. I actually now really want to put Shera on the list because we should know that we've definitely now that we've had this conversation. But before then, next week, I'm gonna change what our plan was.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

So, this is news to you.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

I'm bringing you my deep thoughts about train spotting next week.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Yeah. All right, talk soon. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon. There's a link in the show notes, or leave a positive review so others can find us. And of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening.

Support The Show And Credits

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com.

SPEAKER_02 51:37

Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

And shouldn't you know what's in your head?