Underworld: Deep Thoughts About Feminism, Leather-clad Women, and the Edges of Helpfulness in Analogies of Race Artwork

Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Comedy Podcast

80s and 90s movies and early 2000s tv may be called stupid shit by some, but you know it matters. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, sister podcasters who love well-crafted fiction and one another. In this comedy podcast, we look at the classic movies of our Gen X childhood and adolescence, analyzing film tropes to uncover the cultural commentary on romance, money, religion, mental health, and more. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, comedy to drama to horror, we use feminism, our super smart brains, and each other to uncover the lessons lurking behind the nostalgia of pop culture. Come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.

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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Comedy Podcast

Underworld: Deep Thoughts About Feminism, Leather-clad Women, and the Edges of Helpfulness in Analogies of Race

May 26, 2026 • Sister podcasters raised by 80s and 90s movies: Tracie Guy-Decker, lover of animation, Muppets, comedy, and feminism & Emily Guy Birken, storytelling nerd, mental health advocate, and pop culture aficionado • Episode 138

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Whether you like it or not, you're in the middle of a war that has been raging for the better part of a thousand years.

Tracie returned to the 2003 film Underworld to find a delightful – but maybe not very good – vampire and werewolves version of the Matrix. Starring Kate Beckinsale as Selene in skin-tight leather, Underworld is a visually beautiful, blue-tinged movie that marries some of the ideals of feminism with the same sexist tropes that feminism has been shining a light on since the invention of movies. Because so much of our storytelling requires badass women to fall in love with "chosen ones" rather than simply be the protagonists on their own.

The sisters also unpack an explicit fantasy allegory about interracial relationships that is well-meaning but perhaps not as effective as the movie-makers intended: race is made up, but the difference between werewolves and vampires is visible under a microscope. Sex and sexiness are also key topics of conversation, because vampires. And Kate Beckinsale. (Even though the feminism of a sexy Kate Beckinsale in skintight leather is definitely suspect.)

Though we cannot predict the future, the consequences of this episode will reverberate through 54 minutes of listening pleasure. So put on some headphones and stay out of the shadows.

Pop Culture Is Still Culture

SPEAKER_01 0:24

you know matters. You know it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts about Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I will be sharing my deep thoughts about the 2003 movie Underworld with my sister, Emily Guy Birken, and with you. Let's dive in. Listener, before we dive into Underworld, I'm gonna ask you again, if you haven't yet, please take a moment and follow the show on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify or wherever you get your pods. It's a free way for you to help our show grow. Thanks. Now, Underworld. Emily, I don't know. Have you seen this movie?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

I have, but I have only seen

Quick Favor Follow The Show

SPEAKER_00 1:18

it once.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

And what is in your head? What is in your head about this movie? I cannot wait to hear.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

So what's in my head about this movie is mostly like six degrees of where have I seen that actor. So Kate

First Memories Of Underworld

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Beckinsale, who I know is like the main character in this movie. I think when I saw it, I was like, how do I know her? And she was she played hero in Much Ado About Nothing, the Kenneth Braun on Much Ado About Nothing that I loved. So, and then I know Bill Nye is in it as well, who was Billy Mack in Love Actually. Love Actually. I now know Michael Sheen is in it, but I did not know him at the time. I have since come to adore him. I remember it being a very blue movie. This was like, I feel like the beginning of when movies just turned blue.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

You mean literally the color blue?

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Literally the color blue. Yes, I don't mean like blue humor or anything like that. I mean literally, you're watching it, it's like, why is everything blue? Um I remember there's vampires. I remember there's black leather. That is about the extent of it. Like that's that's what I got. Um, I also happen to know that this is how Michael Sheen and Kate Beckinsale met and that they have a child together. That's it. That's what I got. So it's not much. All right, all right.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Well, regular listeners may know that I actually really love a vampire movie. Twilight being the exception is not with the exception. Because it's not really a vampire movie. Right. But just in general, like the allegory. Right. Just in general, I love that I love the genre. Like something about I think it's the dramatic irony of it. Maybe, maybe it's because like I actually really love sort of the gothic aesthetic, even though I don't think I could pull it off myself. I don't know what it is, but I love a vampire story. And so this was on there because of that, because this was, you know, one of those ones from the early 2000s that I adored it when it came out. Like I just thought it was the bees sneeze in the early 2000s. I've seen it a couple times since. I have not actually seen there are four total movies, and I've only ever seen the first one. I'm going to have to rectify that. So we are only talking about the first one and things that maybe get resolved in future movies. I don't know. I didn't do any of that. Like I'm just talking about this one piece of media from 2003. So it turns out actually it's going to be sort of interesting in conversation with Highlander that we did just last episode. But that was why it was on the list. And like when we were planning last time, I was like, Oh, yeah, the vampire movie. I want to watch the vampire movie again. Nothing more complicated than that. So that's why we're talking about it today. I don't have a whole lot at stake, but I do love a good vampire movie. And I loved this one when it came out.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

I remember that's how I ended up seeing it because you were like, Oh, you gotta watch this, you gotta watch this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

So so I will say on Rewatch, this is not a good film. It is a very entertaining film, but it is not a good movie. Um I have such fondness in my heart for those kinds of movies. Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's part of why we do this project, right? I will say it's really interesting, like the pitch meeting. I imagine the pitch meeting for this movie. They were like, okay, picture it. The matrix, but with vampires and werewolves. You with me? And like that was the whole pitch. Like, that's the movie. The matrix, but with vampires and werewolves.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Well, and that's why it looked blue, because the matrix is blue.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Is blue. Yeah. So a couple postcards from The Destination, and then I will do a quick synopsis mainly of the characters. Um, because really so much happens in this movie. If I tried to do from beginning to end in chronological order, it would be much longer than we have for this show. It's it's just, it is action-packed. So some of the things I want to discuss, I want to ask the question is this a feminist movie? Because there are things

The Matrix Pitch With Fangs

SPEAKER_01 5:20

about it that definitely are, and there are things about it, namely Kate Beck and Sale's leather and corset outfit, which maybe aren't. Hot, hot, yes. Feminist? I don't know. So I want to have that conversation. I want to talk about this movie as an allegory for interracial relationships. And I actually want to, I don't have a hot take. I want to tease that apart with you because I think it was intentional and I don't know how successful it was. I want to talk about the cinematography of this film because, especially after our conversation last week about Highlander, I watched this sort of hearing you in my voice going, senior film student. And there were a couple of moments that I definitely was like that. But also, it's very entertaining. I actually think there are visually this movie is gorgeous. So I want to like have that conversation. And like friend of the show, Ryan Cunningham, probably will like take issue with that because she has such a clear eye of like the framing and set design and all the things that like I just don't see. So, Ryan, like, please, like, I know you're listening. Like, let us know what I got wrong. We'll talk about gender because we have to be Kate Beckett's Ale in that leather outfit. We will talk about Michael Sheen because I love Michael Sheen.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

All hail Michael Sheen.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

And I want to talk a little bit about the moral ambiguity of a movie that's about a war between vampires and werewolves, and like, who are you supposed to root for? Which so Roger Ebert hated this movie. He gave it two stars, and he was like, by the end, I didn't even care who won if it was the vampires or the werewolves. And I actually think, Roger, that was the point. Like you weren't, like everybody was a bad guy. So I want to talk about that a little bit. Before we get to all of those things, let me see if I can kind of remind you a little bit of the plot. So Kate Beckinsale's Celine is our narrator, and also I suppose she's our protagonist. Like she's certainly the main character. And so we get some narration from her, some exposition. We learn that vampires and lichens, which is this world building's name for werewolves, are at war and they have been forever, or for

Plot And World Building Crash Course

SPEAKER_01 7:44

centuries, not forever, for centuries. Celine herself is what is called a death dealer. She is a warrior in this war, and it is her job to kill lichens, and she loves it. And she lets us know that the weapons have changed, but the task is the same. And at one point there's this line that's kind of lame, but I don't know if it was the delivery or the writing, but she says, just like the weapons of the last century, we death dealers will soon be obsolete. Anyway, why will they be obsolete? Because she's gonna exterminate all the lichen. Oh, I see. Okay. She feels like it's that close. So there's all this backstory from centuries ago where the the leader of the lichen, Lucian, died. He was killed, and that sort of ended the worst of the fighting. And since then, that was several hundred years ago, since then, it really had like all the lichen have been basically in hiding, and these death dealers have been like seeking them out. That's all an exposition. And the first scene of the film, like, there's a lot of like architectural gothic things where she and another vampire look like gargoyles on the top of these spires and stuff, but then they drop down, and there's this huge shootout in a subway with vampires and werewolves and like running and jumping and acrobatics and so many bullets, so many bullets. So from the beginning, like it's heart pounding from like the first three minutes of the film. Through the course of the film, we meet. So Celine was turned by Victor. He's one of three elders, and they have a thing where that they call leapfrogging through time, where only one is awake. There are three of them in this, like they're two covens ruled by these three elders, and only one of the elders is awake at a time. The others go into this sort of hibernation where they turn into these like desiccated whatever corpses, and so a century at a time, and then the next one wakes up. And so each of them is sleeping for two centuries and awake for one century. We learn pretty quickly that Lucian, who's supposedly dead, is not, in fact, dead. That's Michael Sheen, but the lichen are all living underground. And the visuals of this movie set up a huge dichotomy between these two species, and they call themselves species. The lichen live underground and it's very gritty and dirty and like muted colors and like browns and grays and things, and like dripping everywhere. It's very gritty. And the vampires live in a mansion with like luscious rugs, and they're all dressed very sexy, but very like luxe, with like lots of like corsets and the men in these like velvet shirts, and it's it's very like lavish, yes, in the mansion where the vampires live in like fancy cars and everything. And the head of the house right now, while Victor, who sired Celine, is sleeping or hibernating, whatever it is that they're doing when he's down in the thing. The head of the house while Victor's asleep is a vampire named Craven. And you can tell by his name, he's a villain. Craven wants Celine to be his partner, and she wants nothing to do with him. Like, she just is not interested in this dude. But he's like, I want you by my side, you're gonna be my future queen, like all this stuff. Like, he just like will not take a hint. Like, this chick's not into you, dude. Erica, played by Sophia Miles, who I did that sort of six degrees like while I was watching it this time. She wants to be the queen. Like, she is like, Yes, me, hello, me, me, me. And she keeps trying to like get Craven's attention. And so there's some, it's not even a rivalry because Celine's not interested. So Erica has some feelings about Celine, but anyway. We also meet Michael, that's the character's name. He's played by Scott Speedman. He's human, and the lichen are tracking him. And Celine sort of figures out that these lichen are tracking this human, and she's like, something's weird. Why is this happening? And Craven's like, Don't you worry your pretty head about it. And she's like, No, I'm not listening to you. Something's weird. And so she figures out that this guy is being tracked. And we learn through the course of like her trying to, like, she's gonna go get the dude, the human dude, Michael. And so she ends up in a shootout with this amazing scene that is iconic where she's like trapped. And so she shoots, she has two pistols, guns, I don't know what kind of, I don't know, firearms that she's holding in each hand, and she shoots a circle around herself so that the floor falls down, and that's how she escapes. And it's amazing. Anyway, it's a shame how much you don't like this film. Michael, like, he gets caught and escapes, and like all sorts of things happen. Finally, Lucian, Michael Sheen, decides he has to do it himself. So he gets Michael and bites him and gets some of his blood in his mouth. And we learn that there was this legend of this man named Corvinus, who somehow had this genetic mutation that allowed him to survive a plague. He had three sons, one became vampire, one became a werewolf, and one remained human. So this like common ancestor for all three. So Lucian and the Lycan have been seeking out a descendant, a human descendant, because they want to try and like merge the species. He wants to end the war by eliminating the difference. And so they have like a board, you know, like a murder board sort of thing with all like the strings and stuff. So so Michael's last name is Corvin, and it turns out he is a direct descendant of this original person. So they've been trying to get his blood because when lichen blood and vampire blood are put together, both die. So if a vampire were to bite a werewolf, he would die and vice versa. So that's like sort of going on the background. That's like world building and like creating the conflict in the plot. So meanwhile, Celine saves Michael from Lucian, Michael Sheen. But then Michael saves Celine because she gets injured and loses a lot of blood and passes out while driving and they fall into a river, a lake. I don't know. So he saves her from the water. So now they've saved each other. So shenanigans ensue, and there's lots and lots of fighting. And then we learn that the man Victor, the vampire who turned Celine, who she believes saved her from werewolves, who killed her entire family, her mother, her father, her sister, and her sister's twin daughters, who were six, she believes Victor saved her from them. And it turns out he's the one who killed them. And he didn't kill her because she reminded him of his daughter, Sonia. Sonia was married to Lucian. Sonia the vampire was married to Lucian, the werewolf. And when Victor, Sonia's father, discovered this and discovered that she was pregnant, he executed her in front of Lucian. So this is all a backstory. Celine didn't know because it's forbidden to look into the past. So there's so many conspiracies. It's an action movie, so and she's the star. So obviously she has to save a man and then fall in love with him because that's how these things work. So there's a romance between them, which some commentators have said is like totally flat and doesn't work. I actually did see the chemistry, and there is a moment where she asks about a picture she saw of Michael and another woman, and he tells a story about how he she was his significant other, we don't know, wife or fiance or what, but like died in a car crash right next to him. Like he was unable to save her, and she kept asking about like, so he watched her die. And then Celine tells the story about being saved and like her entire family. So they have that sort of shared background trauma. Trauma. And then they go through trauma together. So I actually did believe the sort of romance between them. He's been bitten by a lichen, so he's going to turn into a lichen. So she's actually like her job is to kill this guy. She doesn't want to because now she has feelings for him. The whole thing goes down underground in this gritty, it's always raining in this unnamed city where they are. And there's this huge fight between Celine, Victor, Michael, and Lucian. Craven runs away because that's who he is. Lucian is dying. He's been shot with a bullet that had like liquid silver in it. So it's in his bloodstream. So he is dying. And Michael has been shot as well by Kraven. And Celine is like, all she cares about, like Craven's like, come on, come with me. And she's she's like, not she doesn't even give him the time of day like to look at him. She's just focused on Michael. He runs away when he realizes Victor's coming, and Lucian says, bite him. Lucian says to Celine, bite Michael, because he has this special power. So she does, and he turns into this crazy black monster. And then there's a huge fight. Celine now knows that Victor is the one who killed her family. And he's like, Yes, I took from you, but I gave you so much more. And there's this big choreograph fight between like Michael, who's now has like black skin, not like brown skin, like a human person that we call black, but like the color black, like blue black and like black eyes, because he's both vampire and werewolf now. And like the violence of like the power of this choreograph fight scene is intense, where like they throw each other against columns and like cement shatters, sort of sounds like the Highlander thing with the sparks, except I believed it. And then like Victor seems to sort of be winning, but then Celine sees Victor's sword and she picks it up. And this is another iconic scene. This is the one that stayed with me. And she does this acrobatic flip where she jumps around and over him and he like stands up and faces her. Victor's facing Celine. They're probably 15 feet apart at this point, and he's just sort of blinking at her. And then she shows him that the sword has blood on it, and he sort of blinks, and blood sort of bubbles up in a line, a diagonal line from above his left ear, probably above one of his ears, down to like below like his jawline on the other side, like a diagonal line. And then that top half of his head just sort of slides off.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Gross.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Gross. Like while he's still blinking at her. And then we see sort of the lichen are kind of like in the shadows. They had been sort of watching and they sort of recede. And the movie ends with she retrieves a necklace that had been Sonia's the dead daughter. And we hear her kind of voiceover again, sort of saying, What happened tonight is gonna reverberate for centuries, and now I'm gonna become the hunted. There's a lot more. There's like one of the other vampire elders is ambushed that Craven arranged because he wanted to sort of take over. There's how we learn about Sonia being killed by Victor, is because when Lycan bites you, you kind of get some of their memories. And so Michael actually now remembers when Lucian had to witness his. So that becomes sort of a sympathetic moment between them because Lucian is like a kidnapper and like like Michael Sheen's character, like in the beginning, you're like, Do I like this guy? Is he sympathetic? But then the backstory makes him very sympathetic. He tells a story that we used to be enslaved. The werewolves used to be the slaves of the vampires. They were the daytime guardians. And he didn't even, he was born into servitude and he wished them no ill will, even took a vampire as his bride. But then when Victor did what he did, like that was the start of the war. And so we see at one point when Michael and Celine are reunited. Michael says, I know what started the war because he feels as though he was there because he had that memory. And we know that that memory passes on when Celine wakes Victor outside of the appropriate chain, like more than a century early, and it wasn't his turn. But she wants his guidance because she suspects Craven is guilty of something. And so to do that, she gives him some blood, this corpse, some blood. There's this whole like mechanism that's it's actually really neat the way they thought it through. And with it comes his memories. And the reason they only have elders wake the other elders is because they have the skill to like, I don't know, somehow arrange their memories so that when the blood goes, it's like coherent. That's actually kind of interesting. She talks to herself in the mirror. She talks to Victor in the mirror so that he will have that memory. And so there's a lot in there that, like, go watch the movie if this sounds at all interesting to you, if you haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Come to think of it. I do remember Bill Nye's character being like a betrayer. Like, I remember that being like the plot twist of and it's a huge betrayal because she thinks of him as a father.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

He saved her.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

And that's why she's lived the way she's lived for centuries. And it was all a lie. Like he couldn't bear, like they had the rules for the vampires is they only feed on livestock, but like he didn't like that. So every once in a while, Craven tells Celine this. He would, every once in a while, he would go out and binge on humans. And and it was Craven's job to like clean up after him. And that's how Craven knows that this is the case. Yeah. Yeah.

unknown 21:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

So that's sort of the backstory. And there's so much more. I if there are specific things that I you need to know for the analysis, I'll bring them back. But I don't want to spend any more time there. That was our that was enough. So let me start with where I started the postcards, which is is this a feminist film? Here are the ways it is a feminist film. The vampire. Story, the trope, the kind of seed that we have is this powerful seductive man who possesses in some way a submissive

Feminist Hero Or Male Gaze

SPEAKER_01 22:14

woman. Right? Like that is the Dracula story. That was the fear that this like pure woman then becomes sort of seduced. And there's there's sexuality in it, but there's also like dominance and submission. And like all of that is kind of hovering around the vampire story.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

And there's the financial power as well. The vampire, in the way we have received it, is powerful in so many ways. And that power is exercised over his female victim. Celine breaks all of that, right? Like she is powerful. She's the one who holds the power. And even when the other vampire, Craven, is trying to exert his vampiric power over her, she's like, no, I don't just just know. Like, not even like there is no apology. There's no like, oh man, I know. And like, I mean, she even says to at one point to Victor, like, Craven will not leave me alone. Like, he's just, he's obsessed with me, and I can't take it. And so that kind of like, frankly, more realistic. I mean, sometimes the sometimes the attention is wanted. Erica would have loved to have Craven's attention in that way. But when it's not, it's not. And it's not like you get worn down and now love him, which is the what we're often given, you know?

SPEAKER_00 23:46

I don't know if the listeners could probably could not hear my eye roll, although I feel like it should have been audible considering how big it was.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

I mean, we we get that story so often, right? So often. Celine, like, just blows through that with her giant gun. You know, like she just, she's just just no. And so in that that subversion by making her a vampire or making her, you know, this way, and she's like extremely sexy. I mean, so friggin' sexy, but not interested in the sort of dominant male at all. And so, in that sense, I feel like there is a certain amount of feminism. There's a certain a feminist impulse, at least, even just as powerful as she is, like physically powerful, and the way that she like defies convention and defies the rules of this man feels really powerful. Here's the way it's not feminist. It does not pass back to test. Or if it does, it just squeaks by. So there is, there are two other named female characters: Amelia, who's one of the other elders who does not speak. She only dies. And Erica, who I've mentioned, and they do talk to one another. Erica and Celine do talk to one another, but almost exclusively about men, either Craven or Michael. There's like one line where Erica's like, come on, we need to get you dressed for the party, or you should wear this dress. Like, so they do talk about a dress. But like, yeah, it's like I sort of feel like maybe Allison would be okay. Alison Bechtel would be okay with me adding that to the her test. Like, are there at least two named female characters? Do they talk to each other and do they talk to each other about something other than a man, a boy, or what they're wearing?

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Or makeup.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

I feel like maybe Alison Bechtel would be okay with me adding that. So in that way, it's not feminist. It also like she is so sexy. Like she is a walking sex object, Kate Beckinsale in this movie. Like they have her poured into this leather or maybe vinyl like cat suit and then a corset over top. It is hot. I mean, like, it is really hot. And so her power comes with this objectification. And I am not, I think regular listeners will know that I do not believe that sexuality or like showing female sexuality is anti-feminist. But it definitely feels like male gaze with Kate Beckinsale in this movie. Yeah. The other thing is, as I sort of mentioned before, like it's an action movie starring a woman. So of course she's gonna save a man and fall in love with him. Like this is, I don't know if anybody else is using this phrase, but you and I sometimes will talk about the love struck should be leader or hero. The love struck should be leader. Like Trinity is one in the Matrix, which it makes sense now that Caden Beckons out, because this is definitely a Matrix ripoff. And in the in the Lego movie Wild style. I think Hermione eventually becomes one. Yeah, Hermione is one. She's not love struck from the beginning, but eventually like she goes for Ron. What? Anyway, sorry, that's an aside. This is a trope that happens, I think, where you have this super capable. Princess Leia. Yeah, yeah. You have this super capable woman who should be the leader, but instead she is the love interest for the leader, and she likes supports and and saves his leadership. So she falls into that trope. And that doesn't feel feminist to me.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

So you're saying that she's the love struck would be leader. Who is the leader? Is it Michael?

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Yeah. I mean, he's the sort of like chosen one.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Chosen one. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Yeah. So he is not a leader, sort of by the end of the movie. There kind of isn't one. She has she's destroyed. She's destroyed Victor. Craven has run off. And Lucian dies or dead. He dies. He dies. Um Lucian dies. So and the third elder has already died, too, right? No, there is a third elder. The the movie actually ends, the sets up for the next movie beautifully, which I really need to go watch it. They killed one of the like elder lichen who had been helping with this experiment to find Michael Corvin. They killed him in the kind of sleeping chambers. And so we see that his blood, the lichen's blood, like drips down to the final elder who's still living, Marcus.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

And we see his lichen elder elder.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

No, the final vampire elder. Vampire elder elder. The lichen elders don't sleep. The vampire elders. It's three vampire elders who sleep, who sleep frog through time. Gotcha. So, and we see his eyes open. So Marcus is being awakened by werewolf blood. And the werewolf memories will come with that. So who knows? Whoever's seen the next movie knows. I don't know how that's gonna play out because I haven't seen the next movie. But they do set that up really beautifully, I think. You know, in terms of like satisfying storytelling, anyway. Because it was unintentional. They have like Celine killed the guy. Celine brought him and was like interrogating him to prove to Victor, because Victor was still believing Craven. So she like catches this lichen and brings him to the chamber. So Michael, though, is the chosen one. They don't use that terminology. But because he has this special blood, you know. That's what he represents in the story. He represents the chosen one because now he is the first of the new hybrid species which Lucian had been working for. So the other thing that I want to bring up in the question of is this a feminist movie? It doesn't pass back tell, but there are a lot of unnamed female vampires that we see. Many. We don't see a single female werewolf. Not one. And I have to think, I read this and it just really rings true. Some commentator was like, I have to imagine that hairy women was a thing that movie execs were like, nah, don't do that. And given the way Kai Beckinsall and all the other vampires, female vampires, look in this movie, like, yep, that's what happened. They were like, female werewolves, not sexy. Let's not have any. You know, because there's this one scene in the very beginning when we first meet Lucian in person. The werewolves, they're underground and they're like having a fight club, but like as werewolves, because when they've been werewolf long enough, they can turn at well. They don't need the moon. So they're like having like a fight club as werewolves. And so he comes in, like shoots a shotgun in the air and was like, You're behaving like rabid dogs. And there's these two very well-built men who've been fighting. They're like got little blood scratches and stuff, looking sheepish. And he says their names, I don't remember, and he says, put some clothes on. And we can see that like the camera angle ends like very strategically. Like there's a line, like right at like where that like the V of the thigh gap and a little, maybe even maybe even I maybe I saw a hint of pubic hair on one of my maybe, I don't know. Sheen, Michael Sheen pulls it off so beautifully. I was like, oh, you little devil. He like his eyes dart down and then back up, and he says, put some clothes on. So male werewolves can be sexy, but obviously female werewolves can be sexy. So that's another thing that like I'm extrapolating a little bit, but I'm gonna, I'm willing to say, like, that's like a not feminist thing about this movie that like we couldn't get any female werewolves. So, like, there's tension here. Like, Celine is a badass, she's amazing, and like in many ways, subverts patriarchy and like literally beheads it. And in other ways, she falls right into it, you know, with this like poured into this leather outfit, you know? So, anyway, that's I think that's enough.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

I do want to stick with this for a second. Okay, okay. So, one thing I'm thinking about is the way that vampires, like the metaphor that vampires represent in our culture, and this is partially because I believe Bram Stoker himself was not necessarily heterosexual, is vampires represent kind of degenerate sexuality in our culture. And so the fact that

Queer Lens On Monsters

SPEAKER_00 32:40

there is the idea that vampires prey on defenseless women, but within the original Dracula story, Dracula also preyed on Jonathan Harker. And there is that sense of predation of like gay male predation as well. And so I kind of want to stick with this just a little bit and kind of tease out like the kind of queer lens of this as well. Added to that, something that's interesting to think about werewolf mythology is if you consider the fact that werewolves are associated with the moon. Sort of feminine energy, maybe feminine energy periods, because they turn into a monster once a month. And so the fact that these wolves are all male is interesting. And then the fact that our protagonist's name is Selene, which means moon. Mmm. I didn't know that. Yeah. And so, like, all of that together is very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

And the leather add to that is is also kind of well, I'm glad you brought up the fact that that vampires are often associated with sort of degenerate sexuality or sexuality in general, because that definitely is the case with these vampires in this film, right? Like there's a scene where Erica tries to sort of seduce Craven. And, you know, it's very tame by today's standards. Like she ends up topless, but we don't actually see anything. And she's sitting on his lap, but he they both still have pants on, but they're like making out and he bites her neck, which is that cool when you bite another vampire's anyway. So the sexuality piece of it, it's really interesting that you brought that in because the the vampires in this film definitely read as sexual. There is a sense that all of these vampires who live in this coven are having sex with one another. We don't see that, it's just sort of like implied, yeah, yeah. And versus the werewolves who are all male. And the homoeroticism is in these fights or a fight that we see between them. So that's there, but it's all of the subversions are really interesting because you're pointing out that the werewolf kind of becomes sort of associated with women, and we've got only male werewolves. And there is a homoeroticism to the fight scene, especially with Michael Sheen's acting choices, the way he looks at us down. And yet it's also couched in almost a hyper masculinity with the fighting, and they were doing it like a bunch of other guys were watching in their human forms and like goading them on in that in that very, very early fight scene. So that's sort of an interesting thing. And I also think I was telling my um physical therapist actually this morning that I had watched this movie to do this thing, and she says, I fell in love with Kaylee Beckinsale in that movie. She's so hot in that movie. So, you know, when you say like, or a queer lens for this, it's interesting too. Like I read Beckinsale's costume design as male gaze, but it's worth sort of taking a beat and saying, like, yeah, and she is desired by this male vampire, like deeply desired by him. But you know, there's nothing there. Like her only friend seems to be Michael, but she and Erica do seem to have some kind of like at one point, Erica like helps her escape because Craven has her on lockdown. And Celine says, Why are you helping me? And Erica says, I'm not, I'm helping myself. So, like the surface read is that Erica's getting her arrival out of the way, and we definitely see that. But there's also something of a, I think, more than that between these the two women, some sort of friendship or something. So, anyway, thank you for keeping us with this.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Yeah, I mean, to what your physical therapist said, there could be a read that Kate Beckinsell, her character is queer as well, in that she falls for someone who is not like her. And who is forbidden. Who is forbidden, yeah. So in the same way that the daughter that she was created to replace, yeah, also was queer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Yeah, let's let's actually let's jump to the daughter. Let's talk about the daughter because I think that there's a degree to which this was intended as an allegory about interracial relationships. Like Victor, Bill Nye's character, says, I loved my daughter, but the abomination that was growing in her womb I could not allow to exist. I did what I did for the species. And he says that's what he's gonna do now when he kills Michael. And so, you know, you don't have to be a film

Interracial Allegory And Where It Breaks

SPEAKER_01 37:35

critic to sort of see that, right? And Noble, I guess, you know, that they want to do that. They they made this man very much the villain for having policed the interspecies relationships the way that he did. It's very clear. The movie makers make it very clear that he's in the wrong. And it's sort of an interesting like, is this a useful allegory, really? Like, there are no female werewolves as far as we can see. Yeah. And I'm not sure. I'm not sure like where to go with it. Cause like the backstory is really at the individual level, at the personal level level, that Lucian was forced, he was in chains to watch his beloved die. It's a powerful story. When we zoom out as an allegory, right, like with the servitude and where they are now, you know, with the lichen living underground in very like muddy, dirty, sewer type, you know, areas versus the vampires up in the mansion. There are layers to it, which if we are taking it as allegory, like it's complicated. It's complicated. I'm not sure how I feel about it. And, you know, they're very careful. The casting was very careful. There are black werewolves, black people playing werewolves, and there are black people playing vampires. We have both. We even have a couple of at least one Asian vampire. So they were very careful. I mean, our our main characters are all white, but you know, sort of the supporting characters are multiracial. And in fact, like the number two werewolf is played by Kevin Grivaux. He's like that really big guy, big black guy with like a really deep voice.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

One of those six degrees of where do I know that actor.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Yeah. He might be the Green Mile guy. Anyway, I never saw the Green Mile. And then one of the vampires who Celine trusts, who's like the weapons expert guy, is a is a black actor. So, which only supports my sense that this being an allegory about interracial relationships wasn't purpose. You know. So I don't know that I have anywhere else to go with this. I'm not sure it holds up, but I appreciate that they tried. I actually do. And like, as I say, in the individual characters, I do think it's a really powerful story.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

So it's kind of like uh in the way Zootopia was trying to be an allegory. It's one of those where any allegory falls apart if you look too closely at it and can be a little offensive if you take it to its logical conclusion.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

Because it it creates an essentialism, like because race is made up. Yes. Race is made up. Yes. But the difference between a vampire and a werewolf, okay, that's made up. But in the world building of this universe of this film, it's not made up. It is there are like real biological differences. Yes. And so it's like land before time, right? Like Daddy Triceratops was right. Triceratops don't play with long necks because they live to different time periods, right? Like, like there actually is a measurable scientific difference. I know I'm saying scientific difference about vampires and werewolves, but within this movie, there's a lot of science, actually. There is a lot of science within this movie. Whereas there is no measurable scientific difference between the races. And so the allegories, like, actually, in some ways, the allegory reifies the racism. Yes. Because it implies the difference is more substantial than it truly is. Racism is real. Like racism is measurable. Race is not. And so I think that's that thank you for pushing me to articulate that a little bit more clearly.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Yeah. And so, like, that doesn't make allegories useless.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

Right. Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

It's just, you know, when filmmakers and storytellers do have these allegories, we need to like push back on them somewhat to be like, okay, this is helpful, but we need to know where the end of the helpfulness is. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Precisely.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

That's precisely it.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

That's precisely it. Okay. I want to spend a couple of minutes talking about the cinematography in this film because it's actually really fun. And like the pitch meeting that I named at the beginning, like, for reels, like the Matrix meets vampires and werewolves. Like, there are several moments that are use that sort of slow motion, like close-up kind of action or of

Blue Gothic Cinematography That Slaps

SPEAKER_01 42:25

bullets. Bullet time is what they call it. Is that what they call it? Um, that was, I think, invented by the It was the Wachowski sisters. The Wachowski sisters in the in the Matrix movies. Like it's not precisely bullet time because it's it's not the but it's like sort of reminiscent of that. There are a couple of moments where we actually like the camera, I'm putting quotes around that, goes inside the body. And there's like CG of like, like when the vampire is waking up, we see the heart start to beat and like the tissue start to expand. Or like when Michael is first starting to turn his first time, like the camera, again, quotes, goes inside his body, and we see his ribs, like the bones actually expanding, and like, and it's cut between like him like writhing and like pulling up a shirt to look at his rib cage and like like these inner workings, or there's several scenes that are from the POV of a werewolf like stalking Celine. So kind of like like blurry around the edges. Like, I don't know what that's called, like, but that sort of vignette focus, like around like in a little shaky camera work around corners and stuff. I don't know. I'm not a cinematographer, I don't know if that's good, but it works. Like my heart was pounding. It really worked, and so I just want to name that like the movie makers committed to the goth, and like it is deeply entertaining. Like the movie opens on Celine, like sort. Of half squatting in this like skin tight leather up on the ramparts of like a church or something with they all wear like duster coats, like long duster coats. And so she's wearing one and it's sort of flapping in the wind. And it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

It's so beautiful. It's like, I mean, inspires thousands of uh Halloween costumes that year.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

She like back and sale in the outfit is hot, but that's not what that like that moment, that scene, that visual is not actually about the sex appeal. It is sexy, but that's not, I don't think, the primary note. It's gothic is the primary note. And there's something like deeply satisfying about the like gothic architecture and this leather clad woman and the sort of flapping in the way, like what's moving and what's not, and the different textures and the like the blueness of it, as you named, that's just really, really beautiful. And this, the world building that is achieved through the cinematography, and it's in part through the story, but it's also through the cinematography, I think, and the sets. The sets were incredible. The sets, the cinematography, create this world building that is just, I found it deeply compelling. Roger Ebert hated it. So maybe you have to have a certain sort of like aesthetic to appreciate it. But it's this unnamed city that like you're like, is it New York? Maybe it's New York. But the cars have license plates that look more like Europe, but they're driving on the the driver's side is on the correct side for Americans. So it's not London. It's not London, but like it could be London, like with these narrow streets and there's some water. And the accents, right? Like they all have different, like the vampires all have different accents. Like I think Craven sounds American, and I think Erica sounds American, but like all the others sound different kinds of British. So it does create this other universe for you through all of these different factors that, as I said, like I'm not sure it's a good movie. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not a good movie, but it is such an entertaining movie. And I think that world building through the cinematography, through this, through the sets, through the costumes is part of what makes it so satisfying, that world building piece of it. The last thing I want to talk about that I haven't yet is the moral ambiguity. Right? Like you make a movie about a war between vampires and werewolves. Who are the good guys? Right? Both of them feed on humans, right? And interestingly, like we actually don't see them. We don't see them hurt humans mostly.

No Good Guys Moral Ambiguity

SPEAKER_01 46:59

A little bit, a little bit. But the humans who get hurt in this movie are kind of caught in the crossfire. They're not actually the intended targets of any of the violence. So they're killing each other. And it's a high body count. Like a lot of vampires and werewolves die in this movie. A lot. And so, you know, when werewolves immortal in this?

SPEAKER_00 47:19

Yes. Like like vampires? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Yes. Yes. Yes. In fact, so they are vulnerable to silver, but they can regenerate if they can get it out. So in fact, at one point, like Celine takes Michael to a house where they do interrogations, she says. So she thinks it'll be safe. And they're like, there's evidence of like operations and like bullets in a pan. And he's like, What's all this? She says, Well, if we leave the silver in, then they die before we can get any answers. So we take the bullets out, you know, for the interrogation. And then he's like, Well, what do you do when the interrogation's over? She says, We put the bullets back in, which I like saw coming and and still enjoyed that she said it. Um, so I almost I feel like Roger Ebert in his contemporaneous review, when he was like, I don't know who I was supposed to be rooting for, and I really didn't care, you know, vampires or or werewolves in this war. And like, I think that Roger Ebert like missed the point. Like, I think that actually is kind of the point. I think that's sort of what was interesting to the movie makers because it it has a noir vibe to it. And there are no good guys in noir, right? Like, I think that's especially with her voiceover. Like it, it's like gothic matrix noir with vampires and werewolves. I really wish I could have heard the pitch meeting. So, you know, I I think that that moral ambiguity is actually inherent to the story. I think that's like that's part of why you tell a vampire and werewolf story. Lucian, Michael Sheen's character, is the most sympathetic character, even more so than Celine, because we get the sense that he was just trying to live his life with his beloved, and then like he was thrust into being a villain. Yeah. And you never really get the sense that it's villainy. Like, once you understand what's motivating him, it it always feels like he's working towards something, and there are consequences, but it like there is no cruelty in him, unlike all of the other characters, I think, aside from Michael, the human who becomes both. So Michael Sheen's Lucian and Scott Speedman's Michael are the only two who have no cruelty within them. So, like, yeah, of course you don't know who you root for, Roger. Like, they're all bad guys. That's the point. And that's sort of what's I think meant to be interesting.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

So one of the things I find tragic about vampire stories is like, and why I get frustrated by like Twilight is like turning a human into a vampire is a tragedy.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

And right it should be treated as such because it turns them into a monster, a cruel monster.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Yeah. Right. Right. And that you know, it it's interesting that you say that too, because it there's a moment where Victor, Selena's like, how could you have done this to me? How could you have like done this and then taken my trust after what you did? And he's like, Yeah, I took from you, but I gave you so much more. I gave you immortality, isn't that worth it? And like the viewers, like, no, to your point, to exactly your point. Yeah. So so yeah, yeah, Roger, you got it. Good job.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Um, so that's probably other movies that day.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

So no doubt, no doubt. So those were the things I wanted to talk about. I definitely have some stuff for the shit we forgot to say. So, listener, if you are not yet a patron, head on over to our Patreon and you can hear more about Underworld in our extra patron exclusive shit we forgot to say uh bonus. Before that, let me just remind you of what we talked about. So, feminist question

Wrap Up Patron Bonus And Next Week

SPEAKER_01 50:56

mark. There's a lot of things that are feminist about this movie, the ways in which Celine likes undermines the tropes of the vampirism myth that has this very powerful man exert power over a vulnerable woman. She blows that out of the water. She literally decapitates patriarchy. She is also the object of our gaze as an object. The object of our gaze as an object. That's kind of a anyway. Um, she also should be the leader and is instead this sort of love-struck support for the chosen one. And that sort of subverts the feminist move. She is a badass feminist. She doesn't have any female friends and doesn't talk to any other women named women about anything other than a man or her dress. Not feminist. So that's sort of going on there. We talked about this as an allegory of interracial relationships and the ways in which that like is helpful and the ways the edges of the helpfulness, namely that race isn't real, but the difference between, at least in this movie, the difference between vampires and and werewolves is real. And in fact, like under a microscope, you can see it. You brought in sort of the queer lens and the ways, like what happens when we use a queer lens to look at this. Is Celine maybe is she queer in some way because she she loves someone who is forbidden, who is not expected? Was Lucian and Sonia were they queer since they love to cross a forbidden line? And also, like, there's some homoeroticism among the vampires. There's some potentially, I wouldn't use this word, but like sort of degenerate sexuality among the vampires, which comes with the trope. I talked a bit about the cinematography, which I just found delightful. The cinematography, the set design, the costume design all working together to build this world that is immersive and for someone who likes that sort of suspension of disbelief, really entertaining. I landed on moral ambiguity, and that's sort of why I would characterize this maybe as a noir film, because there are no good guys. There are only two people who are truly not cruel. One of them dies, the other becomes a hybrid human vampire werewolf. Not sure that's a happy ending. And of course, Michael Shane. The man is a treasure.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

The man, the myth, the legend. What are you bringing me next week, Em? Next week, I'm bringing you my deep thoughts on the sixth sense. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

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