The Muppets Take Manhattan: Deep Thoughts About the Meaning of Art, Assumptions About Women in the 80s, and Business Frogs in Marketing Artwork

Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Comedy Podcast

80s and 90s movies and early 2000s tv may be called stupid shit by some, but you know it matters. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, sister podcasters who love well-crafted fiction and one another. In this comedy podcast, we look at the classic movies of our Gen X childhood and adolescence, analyzing film tropes to uncover the cultural commentary on romance, money, religion, mental health, and more. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, comedy to drama to horror, we use feminism, our super smart brains, and each other to uncover the lessons lurking behind the nostalgia of pop culture. Come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.

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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Comedy Podcast

The Muppets Take Manhattan: Deep Thoughts About the Meaning of Art, Assumptions About Women in the 80s, and Business Frogs in Marketing

March 31, 2026 • Sister podcasters raised by 80s and 90s movies: Tracie Guy-Decker, lover of animation, Muppets, comedy, and feminism & Emily Guy Birken, storytelling nerd, mental health advocate, and pop culture aficionado • Episode 130

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Hey, I tell you what is. Big city, hmm? Live, work, huh? But not city only. Only peoples. Peoples is peoples. No is buildings. Is tomatoes, huh? Is peoples, is dancing, is music, is potatoes. So, peoples is peoples. Okay?

Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit returns this week with Emily's take on The Muppets Take Manhattan. Although this 1984 film, directed by Frank Oz, still offers plenty of comedy, music, and whimsy, its treatment of women is a little less charming than the Guy Girls remembered.

Kermit, Miss Piggy, and the rest of the gang have just graduated from college and bring their senior musical Manhattan Melodies to New York to try to make it on Broadway. Of course, it's not so easy to find a willing producer, and Oz's storytelling scatters the Muppets across the country while Kermit stays behind. Unfortunately, the screenplay also seems to think that misogyny is just a fact of nature that women must deal with, so the audience must watch Miss Piggy become a badass in the face of catcalling construction workers and purse-snatching scumbags.

And all women in the film are similarly treated, with Janice remarking that she won't take off her clothes no matter how artistic the shoot is, Yolanda the rat constantly getting hit on by Rizzo, Brooke Shields also getting hit on by rats, and the Muppets' college audience laughing off Animal chasing a co-ed. So much for Gen X nostalgia if this was the pop culture written for children.

Still, as Pete might say, Muppets is Muppets. So please, join us!

Why Pop Culture Still Matters

SPEAKER_03 0:00

You don't make art to make it. You make art because it fulfills you. Whether or not you make it on Broadway or you get the book deal, or you know, people see your work. You make the art.

SPEAKER_04 0:15

Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just up culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

I'm Emily Guy Bergen, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit. Because pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head?

Why This Muppet Movie Sticks

SPEAKER_03 0:44

On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1984 film Muppets Take Manhattan with my sister, Tracy Guy Decker. And with you, let's dive in. So, Tracy, I know you've seen this movie. Um, It's Muppets. But tell me, what's in your head about Muppets Take Manhattan?

SPEAKER_04 1:03

The early movies all kind of run together in my head, but this is the one where they like go to New York and they're staying in lockers, right? The lockers is mostly like laughing. Like that's the thing that really comes to mind. For some reason, when I think about this movie, because like the some of the other things like I don't think are actually from this movie. Like, this is not where they're driving across the country and they see Big Bird going the other way. Yeah, no, that's a different movie. Yeah. And it's not the one with the bicycles, like that's the original Muppet movie. And they all blend together. There's advertising, though. There's advertising, right? Soap gets you clean. Is that from this one? Yes, that's from this one. Yeah, yeah. So I don't actually clearly have specific plot moments in my head from this movie. I just have my beloved friends who are in it because their name's in the title. But remind me, like, what? Well, actually, I know what's to say because everything Muppets is like kind of the foundation of our childhood. But like, talk to me about why this was the one that you wanted to put on the list now, why Muppets Take Manhattan and not the Great Muppet Caper or the Muppet movie or one of the others.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

So this was my favorite Muppet movie growing up. And I think it's a familiarity thing. I just, I saw it over and over again as a kid. And I'm not sure why. The Muppets staying in the lockers at the like the bus station, like they, which always reminded me of the pod hotels that in Japan that we just oh, in Japan. Oh, like the one we just stayed in when we were in New York. Yeah. I just, I was that was so delightful. When they're running out of money, they're like, well, we could move to cheaper lockers. Right. Right. So that was something that I really liked. I also I think there was something that really appealed to me about the fact that what they are doing in Manhattan is trying to put their college show on Broadway. And that appealed to me, that it was this like kind of underdog dream of the arts, always really appealed to me. I liked that. And then I also really loved that at the end, because Kermit throughout the film is saying there's something missing. Like it's a great show, but I know there's something missing. And at one point, all of the Muppets leave Manhattan when they're running out of money and leave Kermit there to keep trying to find a way to get the show on Broadway, claiming they have job offers elsewhere. And they meet other Muppets who come with them back to Manhattan when they, when they get an offer to put the show on. And they ask, hey, can our friends watch from backstage? And he says, No, they cannot watch from backstage. That's what's been missing. They need to be in the show. And like, for some reason, that made my little baby heart just swell. And we watched this with my whole family, and like I was getting a little teary-eyed. Even though as a kid, because like they're in the show and they've got costumes. It's five minutes before Curtin rises on opening night when he decides this. They've all got costumes, they know they're lines. And like, even as a tiny kid, I was just like, that's not how any of this works. But that inclusivity was something that just made me really, really happy. And then there were aspects of Miss Piggy's story that I really appreciated, but are kind of a little don't hold up, huh? So often they don't hold up. She's a badass in some ways in this movie, but she shouldn't have to be. That's what's a little ugly. That's what's it why it's important to me. So let me give you a couple of postcards from the destination. As I said, like it it appealed to me, I think, as a kid, being about trying to make it as an artist. That's something I'm gonna want to talk about. There's also what it means to be a good friend. And that's not an unusual thing to see in a Muppet movie or um or any movie, but especially the Muppets. Yeah. And there's like a lot of different answers to that. What I wasn't expecting was there's a lot about the cost of being female in this film that I think that was not intended. That was the Frank Oz was the sole director. Jim Henson needed some time off, or not time off, but he had enough on his plate. So Frank Oz was a sole director, although Henson directed one specific scene. But Oz was the director, and the story and script were by male writers. So this was just what was expected. And a reflection of the culture. Exactly. And there's some deeply embedded casual misogyny, some of which bothered me even as a child. Others I didn't notice until watching it again recently. There is a bit of an immigrant story in there that I think is really interesting and important, and I want to talk about that as well. And then some romance in there that I think definitely appealed to me as a kid. I kind of want to unpack a little bit as we talk. So let me give you kind of a synopsis

Plot Recap And Broadway Dream

SPEAKER_03 6:38

of the plot, such as it is. So we open on Kermit and the gang, which includes Piggy, Gonzo, let's see, Rolf, Fozzie, Dr. Teeth, and the Electric Mayhem, let's see, Scooter. I think that's about the extent of it, who are graduating from college and they have put on their senior play, which is called Manhattan Melodies, that to thunderous applause. And the someone in the audience has says, You should take this to Broadway. And Scooter says, We should take this to Broadway. And Kermit says, I don't know. I think the script's missing something. And they're all like, Well, but if we take it to Broadway, then we don't have to, you know, leave each other after graduation. We can continue to see each other. So they're like, All right, let's do it. So they go to New York. And as you remember, they set up camp in the lockers, which is just such a delightful visual gag. The lockers, I think, at Grand Central Station. And they start going to different producers. And the first producer they meet, played by Dabney Coleman, says immediately, like they play like three chords basically, like, I love it. Start rehearsals tomorrow. And he's like, but she's gonna need $300 from each of you. And it becomes apparent that he is actually a uh just a con man, and he gets arrested in front of them. We then have a long montage of the Muppets trying and failing to get anyone interested in their show. As the months pass, it is gets to be, I believe, September, and they are talking about how little money they have left and how they're hungry. And so they stop in at a diner. I believe it's called Pete's Diner. Wait staff are rats. This is the first time. Um Is that the first time we meet Rizzo? Mm-hmm. Yes. It's the introduction of Rizzo the Rat, who is based on there's a Dustin Hoffman character in a movie, I don't remember what movie, whose name was Razzo Rizzo, Rizzo Razzo, something like that. And so Kermit goes to talk to the owner, who is like kind of this gruff older man with a mustache who speaks with a thick accent, and who is very kind but gruff. His daughter comes in and, you know, says, Sorry, she's late. Her name is Jenny. She is studying to become a fashion designer. She's just taken a test for her class that she's taking for that. And she says, like, I'll take care of things for you so you and your friends can all get soup. The rest of the gang has been asking Kermit, what should we do now? And he kind of like loses his temper at them, like, I don't know. I don't know what to do. And so while he's talking to Jenny, they decide, like, we're putting too much pressure on Kermit. We need to help him by relieving that pressure. And so they all decide to leave Manhattan, tell him they've gotten jobs elsewhere so that it's not so much pressure on him. And so they all scatter to the winds, saying that they have jobs in various places while Kermit stays. He convinces Jenny and Pete to give him a job at the diner while he continues to try to find someone who will put on the show. So the next part of the movie is he'll get letters from the gang talking about what they're doing, and we see like funny scenes of what they're up to. So Scooter is working at a movie theater where he meets some other Muppets. We see Gonzo doing like stunts in, I think, in Michigan, where we meet some other Muppets. We see, let's see, Fozzie has met up with some other bears and he's trying to hibernate and he can't sleep.

SPEAKER_04 11:00

I was muted, but I was laughing out loud. That cracks me off.

SPEAKER_03 11:08

He keeps getting rejections from other producers. And we also see that Miss Piggy, though she claims that she left, has actually stayed in Manhattan and is spying on Kermit and uh is jealous of his relationship with Jenny because they are friends and like she hugs him sometimes and things like that. We do see her, she got a job at the makeup counter at a department store, and there's this great scene with her and Joan Rivers putting makeup on each other and like giggling, and it's kind of a delightful, funny scene. And then they both get fired. We also see that Kermit has various schemes to try to get people to get interest in Manhattan melodies. So he goes to the famous New York restaurant where there's the caricatures of all the famous people on the walls, and he has Jenny draw a picture of him, put it up on the wall. So it looks like he's one of the famous people. And he takes down a picture of Liza Minelli to put himself up and has Rizzo and his rat friends like hide under the tables to whisper about Manhattan melodies. But then Liza Minelli happens to come in and asks the owner, like, did I do something wrong? And then the rats are smelling the food, going, like, that smells delicious. And everyone freaks out because they come out from under the tables and are like, rats, rats. And so Kermit gets thrown out. So, you know, his schemes just don't work. There is a point where Jenny and Kermit are in the park, and Kermit is upset because nothing seems to be working, and she's like, Let's go for a jog. Exercise always helps. And so they're jogging. Piggy is spying on them, and she is jogging behind them and having trouble keeping up. And then she stops to kind of catch her breath and a man snatches her purse and she gets really mad. And so Gregory Hines is putting on some roller skates and she says, Excuse me, I need to borrow your roller skates. She skates after the purse snatcher in this amazing scene, like total badass, and then like grabs him. The purse snatcher, she it's his tiny little purse, and he's pulling all this stuff. It's like a Mary Poppins bag. Like, and my favorite is he pulls a hacksaw out of this tiny purse. Because of course the pig has a hacksaw. And when the police come, they the the purse snatcher says, This pig stole my purse. And the police are like, Yeah, right. And all the commotion means that Kermit and Jenny see what happened.

SPEAKER_04 13:54

Oh, so Piggy has found out that she's still in Manhattan.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

Kermit and Piggy are arguing. And Gregory Hines comes running up saying, like, let me get my skates back. I love the idea that Gregory Hines and Goofy Piggy were the same size roller skates. Yeah, okay. And this is a hilarious scene where Gregory Hines like starts getting involved in their argument. So like he's like, Can I get my skates back? And then he's like, You two argue. I'll just, I'll just untie the laces while you're talking. Then he starts, he's just like, giving huggies to Jenny. Huggies. Uh-huh. And then Fonnie's like, you know what? Keep the skates and jogs off. And so they end up reconciling and they take a carriage ride and they talk about how they want to be together. There has been some talk about how Kermit has said like they'll get married once once they have enough money. And so once the show is successful, and Piggy says something about, I wish I'd known you when we were kids. And so we see like a dream sequence of like them as that's what babies came from. Oh my God. So Kermit makes Piggy come and and like reconcile with Jenny and become friends. And when they get back to the diner, there is a letter from a big name producer who says he wants to put on Manhattan melodies. When Kermit gets there, the producer is much younger than he was expecting. Turns out it's his son. And the son, who is like in his very early 20s, has apparently his father said he would produce a play that he chose. And, you know, if he could make it a success, then his the dad will like allow him to take on more responsibility in the production office. And so the son really liked the idea of Manhattan melodies. Kermit calls the diner from a payphone and be like to tell them the great news. It's so exciting. And as he he hangs up, he says, I'm going to be there in 20 minutes. And he walks into the out into the street and he's hit by a car and he gets amnesia, which this was my first introduction to the amnesia trope. I had never seen it before, this movie. Of course, Piggy and Jenny are very worried because, you know, like hours have passed and he hasn't come back. The son, and I don't remember the producer's name, but he comes in. They're like, okay, well, we need to get all the friends back to put this show on. And we've only got a few months. The son comes in, he's like, actually two weeks, because my dad said, like, since we're doing this, we got two weeks. And we're like, what? So they get all the Muppets back and they bring their friends from their various places. Meanwhile, we see Kermit in the hospital, like he's fine, but can't remember who he is. The doctor says, Well, since you're found with no clothes, we looked up the, you know, local nudist colonies. And I think that your name is I don't know, it's something ridiculous.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

Because they looked up a nudist colony? And it's the name of somebody who's missing from a nudist colony.

unknown 17:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 17:20

Who was a frog?

SPEAKER_00 17:22

No, they don't make any reference to the fact that he's a frog.

unknown 17:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

So they say, here's what we can do for you. We can give you a clean set of clothes. Why don't you go out, pick a new name, get a job, start your life over. So we see Kermit go to a an office building where there's like a temp agency, and he's he's passing by a an office that has three other frogs in suits. And he asks them, Do you know where the staffing agency is? They're like, Oh, it's down the hall. They ask him, like, could you help us? And that's what you remember where they they have at agency.

SPEAKER_04 18:08

It was Waffle.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

And so he helps them with, I don't remember what their product. It was like soap. Well, it was a soap. That's all I remember. Yeah, it was soap. And I don't remember what their slogan was. It was something ridiculous. And he's like, What about it gets you clean? And they're like, Oh. And so they ask him his name, and there's a sign for another, like, I think for gas, and it's like Phil Up. And so he's just like, it's Phil. Phil Up. And they're like, Oh, well, I'm Gil, and this is Bill and Jill. So he becomes the an ad agency frog named Phil. So Jenny is making costumes for Manhattan Melodies. All the Muppets have come back. In their off time, they wander around Manhattan calling for Kermit and don't find him. They like kind of cross paths with the ad agency frogs, but of course, Kermit doesn't recognize them and like they don't see him. They just, and so they're opening night, and so it's early in the day. The gang and Jenny and the producer are all at the diner, like really depressed, going, like, should we just cancel? What do we do? The ad agency frogs are walking by saying, like, why don't we try a new place for lunch? And they come in and they sit down at the booth right next to where everyone's sitting, all depressed. And there are some water glasses, and Kermit starts playing the water glasses, doing the melody of the final song in the show. And they look over, and at first they only see the other three frogs. And then someone walks over and sees, like, no, it's Kermit. And they grab him. They take him to the theater, and he doesn't remember. They spend hours trying to convince him. And so finally, Miss Piggy's like, Don't you remember you love me and I love you, and we're gonna get married? And he starts laughing and very cruel. He scoffs very cruelly. And so she gets angry and like karate chops him. And so he like And that jogs his memory. Jogs his memory. He like he flies backwards and upside down. And then he goes, Like, what do you mean it's tonight? And like realizes what it is, what's happening, and comes back to himself. They're like, Okay, great. We the show must go on and get him into his costume. And that's when I think Fozzie says, like, hey, all our friends came with us from our travels. Can they watch backstage? He says, No, they have to be in it. And then we see the stage play, which has we haven't really seen this part of it. So there's a song about somebody's getting married, which is Kermit and Piggy. And we see the church, which is, you know, just full of Muppets. And then Kermit and Piggy get to the altar, and there's a human there, and Kermit like kind of leans over to Piggy, he's like, I thought Gonzo was gonna play the pastor. And she goes, as in she got a real wedding will be real, not so. Yeah. And so the film ends with the wedding song, and then they kind of end with them in a like moon that kind of rises up. Yeah, I kind of remember that. Yeah, it's very broad way. Uh-huh. And then that's the end of the film. So where do you want

Miss Piggy Jealousy And Jenny

SPEAKER_03 21:45

to start? I want to start about the cost of being female because it it's what really struck me this time. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:51

It's interesting that that happens when there are so few female Muppets. Like, is it about Jenny or is it about Piggy or both?

SPEAKER_03 21:57

It's just throughout. So, like early on. When they're in their college auditorium, Kermit is saying, like, thank you, like we have made it at this point. And then animal is running after a co-ed, going, Wall man, whoa man. And he's like, Some of us with psychological help on a daily basis or something like that. I was just like, oh, yeah, animal does not age well. Yeah. They've made changes to animal that make sense for what the intention was. But yeah, a whole auditorium laughs with animal doing that. But then one of the times when Piggy is spying, she's wearing a trench coat and she is standing in front of where there's some construction. And a construction worker starts noticing her and starts saying, like, hey, pretty, and like starts like kind of catcalling her. And she's just ignoring him. And then two other construction workers start catcalling her. And it's a children's movie. So they're not saying anything vulgar. But they are very much like it's and it's played as if, yeah, this is just what happens. And when I think this is the first time Jenny hugs Kermit. And so when she sees that, she gets so angry that she grabs like an iron bar and bend a bar. I think she bends it and then she starts hitting a trash can with it. Which scares the crap out of the construction workers who like run away from her. And that's kind of what I mean about she's a badass, but she shouldn't have to be able to be.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

It's like I don't remember really liking the fact they stopped bothering her.

SPEAKER_04 23:46

Uh-huh. And that's not why she did it.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

She was just having a reaction to something not related to them. Yeah. And that ew. Ew. That was also like it was just unremarkable and unremarked upon in the film.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

Like this is just this is what happens. And like part of the joke was the fact that they were hitting on a pig. Right. So then the scene that I mentioned with Joan Rivers, which is very funny. I really appreciate that scene. So that comes right after the construction worker scene. She comes in, she's late. She had been on her lunch break. Piggy. She piggy. She piggy. Yeah. She'd been on her lunch break, and her her boss is like, you know, you're late back from lunch on your first day of work. And she's like, I'm so sorry, it will never happen again. And she comes back in and Joan Rivers does her line, like, can we talk? Miss Piggy, it's basically like, you know, oh man. Miss Piggy says, like, am I pretty? Because she's feeling insecure because of Jenny.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 25:01

Joan Rivers says, like, look at you. Of course you're pretty. You're very pretty. There's that similar kind of like cost of being female tension where it's just like, why are we talking about this? This doesn't have anything to do with your worth or your and but it's just a given. And then Piggy says, Well, am I gorgeous? And Joan Rivers goes like, like it kind of. And then they she starts like saying, like, you know, I I think you're a little pale. You just need a little rouge. And they start putting makeup on each other and like giggling and having fun. And that that ends up being like just very affirming and fun. And like they're just, it's hilarious. It's an it's this hilarious moment where it's like it almost feels like pushing back against those standards. I don't know. I read that the scene wasn't really working. And so Frank Oz went out and got four gin and tonics, two each for him and Joan Rivers. And they drank them and then did the scene because he does the voice for Piggy. And then he had no idea what they got when they filmed it because of the gin and tonics. He's like, I hope that went well. And so that's part of what was going on with the buttons, and then as Joan Rivers and Piggy are like looking at each other and going and like just guffawing at each other. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 26:22

There's just something very subversive about it, about like there's something really interesting about that, given the idiom about lipstick on a pig.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:33

And so to have Piggy be, you know, at this makeup counter and like doing this makeup with Joan Rivers. There's something like really interesting in that, in terms of like the English idiom about like how the idiom means that something's futile. There's no point. It's like putting lipstick on a pig and like here they are, and yet they're having a great time. And it's really funny. And then you add to that the fact that this is a puppet. So I mean, you put blush on the felt of a puppet. Like, what do they need? A new puppet? How do you wash that off? Like, so like there's multiple layers for the viewer, I think, in terms of like the actual, like the visual metaphor of putting lipstick on a pig, the actual practical effects of putting makeup on a puppet, on a felt puppet.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

And also Piggy's putting makeup on Joan Rivers.

SPEAKER_04 27:28

Yeah. Well, and recognizing like as the viewer that like those eyes that are Miss Piggy's eyes are not actually eyes, right? They're just fabric. So like Oz is like below like doing like that's also sort of interesting. And I think the sort of top level of these two women sort of having fun with this expectation of beauty, which they have been hired to sell and doing it in like ridiculous and silly and ways to amuse each other and themselves. I think that's the subversion that you're seeing.

SPEAKER_03 28:06

Yeah. Yeah. I remember always really liking that scene. Always, and part of it is, and it it I think it's the ginatonics, is that the laughter feels genuine.

SPEAKER_04 28:15

Yeah. Um. I mean, and Joan Rivers is charming. I think like she's brassy and and charming. There's a reason she was as popular a comedian as she has been in her career. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:29

But then the fact that they the boss comes over and fires them both, that's another cost of being female.

SPEAKER_04 28:36

It's also the fact that they get punished for the subversion that you found so charming.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

Yes, exactly. Exactly. And then the purse snatching scene is another. Now part of this is like New York in

Amnesia And The Opening Night Push

SPEAKER_03 28:50

the 80s had the reputation of like that's what's gonna happen. And like part of the reason why I loved Miss Piggy was she's like, I am not taking that lying down. You know, she's a badass. And also the kind of subversion of she's having trouble keeping up jogging behind Jenny and Kermit when she's like feeling emotional anguish and jealousy, but like, oh no, you got my purse. I can't I'm gonna get uh these roll fine states and deeper reserves of strength and stamina. Like, I want my hacksaw back. But there is that like a souzing, a sense of like women are a little bit of the butt of the joke because it's like women can't actually do that. Women can't actually fight back like that. There's kind of a it's layered.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

It's layered in the fact that like Piggy is the only like main character who's female and they made her a pig, you know, and they made like the there are these like extreme and like it's a Muppet, it's a character. Of course, that like there are the extreme sort of character traits. That's true for all of the Muppets, but she's the only female one. I mean, I know Janice is well in this movie, but Janice is never like a prime mover among the Muppets. She's just kind of like one of the band.

SPEAKER_03 30:11

Speaking of Janice, when everybody comes back, there's a point where everybody's talking and then it gets quiet, and then you hear what Janice is saying. And I said to him, I don't care what the conditions are, I will never do that. Something along those lines. But it's a line that makes it clear that she's being sexualized. Mm-hmm. With boundaries. I mean, but still, cost of being female. Yeah. All the female Muppets, because there's a female rat. So Rizzo's the only rat working at Pete's originally, but then he brings in some rat friends. There's only one girl, Yolanda, and Rizzo is constantly hitting on her. And she keeps hitting him, literally, like, but cost of being female. And then there's the casual misogyny of women be obsessed with getting married.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

And the fact that Piggy tricked Kermit into an actual marriage.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Bothered the crap out of me as a kid.

SPEAKER_04 31:11

Mm-hmm. That whole like narrative arc about bitches be crazy. Like that that's all that women want. Like it was really like forced down our throats that that's the thing. I've been thinking about it a lot lately. Like that sort of, they call it the relationship escalator model, where like there's always like some extra level of commitment that you're supposed to be going toward. And like it taught us all we were always failing. Why are you single? Why aren't you more serious? When are you getting married? When are you having kids? When are you like there's like this constant pressure for the next thing, the next thing, the next thing until you like win? I'm putting quotes around that. And then you're still not happy. So obviously you're a failure. You were failing, and then you succeed, and you're a failure because you're not happy because they told us that all of this was going to make us happy. Sorry, this is a total aside. But like, I think that like this kind of programming where like this is all Piggy wants is to get married. And like there's some sense in which Kermit doesn't actually want to, because when he has amnesia and doesn't remember who she is, he's cruel about the possibility of them being together. And then she has to deceive him into getting that next step on the escalator. Like this is what we were taught was normal. Well, and it was written by men. I yeah, I don't I'm realizing now that like that well into which Frank Oz and the other writers were dipping, because they didn't invent it. Oh no. But that well that said that like we were all like auditioning and like scheming and like needing to engage in machinations to like catch a man and trap him. I've said this in other places recently, but it's sort of like Tom Sawyer's fence. They made us think we wanted it, but it's actually other people's work. This is like a realization I've had that you've heard me say, but like our listeners maybe haven't that like, and I think this kind of a trope that Piggy and Kermit fall into is part of how Tom Sawyer made us think we wanted to be whitewashing the damn fence.

SPEAKER_03 33:30

Yeah. It's part of what I also like, because I I always loved Piggy's badassery, but it bothered me that she was spying on Kermit. It bothered me that she lied. That actually like is counterindicated.

SPEAKER_04 33:44

If you're a badass, you're not insecure like that. Not that you can't have insecurities, but like her confidence and that kind of level of insecurity and jealousy just don't make sense together.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Yeah. I do want to talk about how to be a good friend. That kind of leans into that somewhat. The Muppets scatter because they're all asking Kermit, what do we do? And he kind of snaps at them because he's overwhelmed, which is understandable. They're in a really tough position and he's the leader and they keep asking him and he's he doesn't know what to do. And so they together are like, wow, we don't want to make this harder for Kermit. We're in a tough place. Let's make it easier for him. And then he's really sad that all his friends have left. It's interesting because I'm thinking about like them leaving an act of incredible friendship because they don't want to leave either. But it relieves this incredible pressure on him where he's feeling responsible for them, but it also makes all of them sadder.

SPEAKER_04 34:46

It feels misplaced to me because it is done with in dis with deception. They decide what's best for him and then execute without ever talking to him about it.

SPEAKER_03 34:59

Yeah. Yeah. That's part of what's like my kids were like, I this wasn't our favorite Meppet movie. I was like, that's okay. Like this, I loved it and I watched it over and over again as a kid. And it's okay if you didn't like it. There's moments that I just adore in this movie, but and there are things that make me tear up every time. Like there's a song montage when they all leave called saying goodbye that makes me tear up. I wish that the movie had talked about it. But there's supposed to be, you know, early 20s-something, you know, right out of college, where like you don't necessarily know that you should have this conversation together before making decisions unilaterally and with deception. Like you're trying to do right by someone you love. And like, you don't know, you're still new at this. You're emotional flailing puppies of chaos at that point. In some ways, like the end where Kermit's like, everybody on stage, kind of, I don't know. There's a reason why that always makes my heart grow three sizes. It makes it clear that like inclusion is a way of mitigating that kind of well-meaning harm. Where instead of saying, like, okay, we're gonna each go into our own little silo to try to protect each other, it's saying, like, no, bring everybody together. We're all in this together. The fact that this film has lots of different examples of friendship and they get it wrong, but they're really trying. You know, it's a 40-year-old movie. And I don't like, I don't think, you know, I don't think it did a terrible job of it. Like the cost of being female and the casual misogyny, yes. But it would be nice if it had taken some time for Kermit to be like, you should have told me. We do have Jenny as the voice of reason multiple times saying, like, you know, I'm sure your friends are thinking about you too, and they really miss you. Like she's consistently being the voice of reason and saying, like, how much your friends love you and how much all of this means to everyone. So we see the like the human, main human character kind of giving us the lesson that just because things don't look like you want them to, doesn't mean that you know, your friends don't care or things like that. Yeah, yeah. But the fact that all of Kermit's attempts at deception to get his show on Broadway don't work, I think also underlines the idea that it's better to be forthright, except that then Piggy gets married.

SPEAKER_04 37:49

It's interesting to think about sort of deception in this movie. Because there's a lot of it, right? Like there's the from the very beginning, the con man producer who wants 300 bucks from each of them. It's such an interesting when I start thinking about those layers that we talked about with Joan Rivers and Piggy, start thinking about that, like deception. When we're talking about puppets, for which they're not people, right? Pretense is the game. It's a really interesting to like add those layers of deception and like when is deception okay? And like, like obviously the producer who was trying to deceive the Muppets out of money, that's not okay. But when the f all of the Muppets were like, we need to protect Kermit, so we're gonna lie to him, like we forgive them, even though like I wonder too, like how much the movie makers wanted us to actually sort of feel the way that you and I feel. Like, well, that's not cool. Like you made a decision for him, and how much we were meant to actually be like, oh yeah, they needed to relieve some pressure on him.

SPEAKER_03 39:00

You know, like well, and it I mean, part of what I loved about the movie when I was a kid is seeing what they were all doing when they were scattered. Like I and I loved they brought back new Muppet friends.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 39:13

So they actually get rewarded for the deception in the universe of the movie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas if they'd done the exact same thing but talked to Kermit about it, like the outcome would have been the same, but there would have been left suffering.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Yeah. I don't know. So one thing I do, because I mentioned it, the nature of making it as an artist, because we're running a little short on time. I started that at the top of this. There are a lot of stories out there, and it's because the people who make stories are people who are artists trying to make it. Right. But there are a lot of stories about making it as an artist. Right. And the dispiriting nature of trying to make it as an artist. Watching this as an adult was interesting. I've mentioned before, I write fiction. I have often on tried querying agents for novels. I mean, probably over 20 years now. And it is soul crushing.

SPEAKER_04 40:14

Yeah. I have gotten discouraged after like three or four queries, and they say it takes like 70.

SPEAKER_03 40:19

Seeing this, like there is this sense of, and this often happens in stories about making it as an artist. There's a like a Deus Ex Machina kind of thing. Now, part of it is because it comes down to luck often. Yep. And that's because luck comes to those who persevere. That's not to say that like luck plays a role in every single success story. I truly believe that. But then also like you're not going to get lucky if you don't persevere. Right.

SPEAKER_04 40:50

You need to put yourself in the circumstances where luck can find you. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

But the naivete of the Muppets, where they're like, oh, we'll be on Broadway by the end of the summer, which I just took in. It just went over my head as a kid, like the how naive they were. And I don't know how much the movie really comments on it. Like it just lets that be.

SPEAKER_04 41:14

I mean, except that their naivete is rewarded by a con man.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

So immediately.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

And I think that also plays into what I love about the this is what was missing. We need all the bears and chickens and things to join us. Because what has like the very hard one realization, it's slippery. It's a slippery realization. I have to like claw to hold on to it, is that you don't make art to make it. You make art because it fulfills you. And so whether or not you make it on Broadway or you get the book deal, or you know, people see your work, you make the art. And so that's part of the we need all the bears and chickens and things to join us because that's what the art is part of like why little baby Emily is just like, yay, and gets all teary-eyed at the end. Because that's what it is to make it as an artist, whether or not you ever see Broadway. You know, I don't know if anyone else would see it that way, if that's just a uniquely iberkin take from this. I say that, but I would love to uh have the universe challenge me on that by giving me a chance to uh see how it feels to be a New York Times bestseller.

SPEAKER_04 42:43

I don't think what you said was like mutually exclusive. I mean, like I actually think what you said is like sort of what leads to that. If you write the book to try and make it to the New York Times, it's gonna be a shit book. Yeah. Because you're not writing it for you. So it's it's disingenuous.

SPEAKER_03 42:58

Yeah. And that I think gets to, even though Jim Henson was relatively lightly involved in this. He was involved in this, but not, you know, not as directly as he was in other Muppet productions. But I think that gets to part of the reason why we love the Muppets is like, seriously, WTF, they're puppets. You know, but they are amazing. And

The Cost Of Being Female

SPEAKER_03 43:25

like 70 years ago, if you said like one of the most enduring properties of the 20th century will be puppet marionette hybrids, and everyone will know them. They will be globally renowned. One of them is a frog who's in love with a pig with blonde hair and purple gloves. Like people would have been like, What are you on about? That doesn't make any sense. And it's because Jim Henson made the art that spoke to him. He didn't make it for us. We just got lucky. We got lucky. Yeah. And so, like That's what I feel like ultimately this movie is about. It's about making it by making the art that is meaningful to you.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. I like ending there.

SPEAKER_04 44:16

So let me reflect back to you what we talked about. We were all over the place today.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

Very much so.

SPEAKER_04 44:24

You started this conversation about Muppets Take Manhattan, talking about the cost of being female and the casual misogyny of the film, which was obviously not intention, not intentional, but was just sort of the movie makers and the Muppets reflecting back the society in which we live. We spent like wrapped up with that was the kind of lie we've been spoon-fed about romance and about relationships and commitment that the Kermit Piggy dynamic exacerbates, like feeds into, perpetuates, like did not invent. So like I'm not mad at Frank Oz and Jim Henson for this. Like they like just tapped into a well that was very plentiful. I spent some time off on my rant about how it contributed to the relationship escalator model, which sells us whitewashing Tom Sawyer's fence, makes us think that we want to do the whitewashing, which is actually somebody else's work. There was also like you talked about some of the like tension in this pig puppet who there's a little bit of like real women couldn't fight back like this. And that's part of what's funny. Part of what's funny is that these guys are hitting on a pig, but like this is what happens. You know, we're just reflecting, like, what actually happens? We actually spent a lot, uh several minutes talking about all of that. You also talked a bit about like, well, we spent some time talking about deception in this film, whether, and like there's the ill intent of deception of like the con man, and then there's the good intentioned deception of the Muppets sort of leaving and lying about having jobs, which the movie actually rewards them for. But you and I sort of discussing the fact that by doing that, they're making decisions for Kermit, which could have been made sort of together, that the action of the movie could have been exactly the same if Kermit had been in on the conversation about going to find jobs. Just there would have been less suffering on everyone's part, which the movie does not make that comment. You and I are making that comment. We also talked about sort of being a good friend and what does that look like and the fact that there's a lot of lots of examples of that that they kind of get wrong, maybe, but the film does give us Jenny, the human, the primary human actor, to like be a voice of reason and remind us that like just because things don't look the way you want them to doesn't mean that your friends don't care about you. So thank you, Jenny. We spent some time unpacking the scene where Joan Rivers and Miss Piggy put makeup on each other and the subversion of that, that they're like having fun and being ridiculous with this beautifying technology that they have been hired to sell, and how fun and funny and delightful that was for you as a child, in part probably because Joan Rivers was a little drunk, and so was Frank Oz. Within the universe of the movie, they get punished for it, which also jibes because it subverts the status quo, which is part of what makes it so delightful. What did I forget? Just the nature of making it as an artist and what that means. Where we landed, where we landed. And the fact that this movie does seem to support the idea that we make the art we need as artists. And that's where the luck comes in. Not in sort of making the art for consumption, but because we love it. And the more the merrier, which makes you cry every time. So what we did not get to was the immigrant story. So let's talk about that in the shit we forgot to say, which listeners, if you are not yet a patron, you can head over to our Patreon. It's very easy to join and not very expensive, and then you can hear the bonus content. And next week, I'm gonna bring you my deep thoughts about the film Amelie, which I actually liked in part because it reminded me of your name. Awesome. Looking forward to it. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon. There's a link in the show notes, or leave a positive review so others can find us. And of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompitech.com. Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head?