Pirates of the Caribbean: Deep Thoughts About Rum, Amusement Park Rides, and Jack Sparrow Rewriting Our Pop Culture Understanding of Pirates Artwork

Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Comedy Podcast

80s and 90s movies and early 2000s tv may be called stupid shit by some, but you know it matters. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, sister podcasters who love well-crafted fiction and one another. In this comedy podcast, we look at the classic movies of our Gen X childhood and adolescence, analyzing film tropes to uncover the cultural commentary on romance, money, religion, mental health, and more. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, comedy to drama to horror, we use feminism, our super smart brains, and each other to uncover the lessons lurking behind the nostalgia of pop culture. Come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.

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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Comedy Podcast

Pirates of the Caribbean: Deep Thoughts About Rum, Amusement Park Rides, and Jack Sparrow Rewriting Our Pop Culture Understanding of Pirates

March 17, 2026 • Sister podcasters raised by 80s and 90s movies: Tracie Guy-Decker, lover of animation, Muppets, comedy, and feminism & Emily Guy Birken, storytelling nerd, mental health advocate, and pop culture aficionado • Episode 128

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I think we've all arrived at a very special place. Spiritually, ecumenically, grammatically.

Before the 2003 blockbuster film Pirates of the Caribbean was the pop culture juggernaut that spawned more sequels than most pirates can count on one hand, it was the first movie Emily went to see with her spouse in their early courtship. This week on Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Emily brings her film analysis to what should be nothing more than a ridiculous piece of pop culture:

It's a big budget action adventure movie, based on an amusement park ride, starring an intentionally uglified Johnny Depp, channeling Keith Richards, to play an infamous pirate. It's no wonder Michael Eisner worried about the mental health of director Gore Verbinski for letting Depp do what he wanted.

But for all its silliness, Pirates offers tightly-written storytelling, professionals taking their craft seriously but not themselves, and a scene-stealing and pop culture changing performance by Depp. How we think of pirates has been completely altered because of Depp's portrayal of Jack Sparrow, which reinforces what a creative talent the actor is, even if he seems like a complete creep IRL.

Yo-ho, yo-ho, a podcaster's life for me! Grab a tot of rum and listen in!

Rules, Fairness, And Nuance

SPEAKER_01 0:24

film based on a ride at Disney World.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit. Because pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 2003 Gore Verbinski film Pirates of the Caribbean with my sister, Tracy Guy Decker, and with you. Let's dive in. Tracy, I have no idea

Why This Movie Matters Personally

SPEAKER_01 1:12

if you've seen this movie or not. I have seen this movie. Okay. So tell me what's in your head about Pirates of the Caribbean.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Johnny's Epp in a lot of eyeliner, which I found very sexy because I always like meant an eyeliner. God, yes. And kind of like swaggering around, like sort of drunk, but also like wise somehow in my imagination, like in his weird drunkenness. Kira Knightley looking amazing. Actually, just pretty people in general. Orlando Bloom is also in my head. Yeah, that's pretty much it. Like the first thing I think of when I think of pirates is Johnny Depp's eyeliner. So I am consistent. I like men and eye makeup. Yes. Nothing if not consistent. Yes. So yeah, that's what's in my head. But somebody, why are we talking about pirates today? What's what's at stake for you?

SPEAKER_01 2:05

So this was the first film that my spouse and I saw together when we were dating. It came out in July of 2003. My spouse and I met July 7th, 2003. So we'd only been dating like a week and a half. I don't know. Oh, wow. So it was like a first or second date? Yeah. It was very early on. And I don't think you would have seen it if I hadn't said, I'd like to see this movie. Because he especially that like men in eyeliner. Well, no, he doesn't like men in eyeliner. He also tends to be like, oh, well, it's something everybody likes. I'm going to be contrary.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

You know, I've known him almost as long as you have, and that tracks.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

So the other thing, this movie very strangely reminds me of Alanis Morissette, because at the time when we first met, my spouse was working for a job where he had to change clothes. And he had come from, we saw it on a weekday, and he had come from work and his shirt was on inside out and backwards when he met Kib to meet me. And so we bought the tickets. We went and I was like, Your shirt's on inside out and backwards. He's like, oh, so it is. And I was thinking like he was gonna go into the men's room and change it. And he's like, popcorn. And we went in. And so I was thinking the Lannis Moore set song, your sweater's on backwards and inside out. And you say, Ha, how appropriate.

unknown 3:34

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

And it's okay. So just a little background of how my mind works. Okay.

unknown 3:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

All of that. So there's something at stake because it's associated with your the beginnings of my early courtship. Yes. Courtship, yeah. All right. So give me some postcards at the destination. What do you want to talk about when we get into it?

SPEAKER_01 3:57

So this movie, if you recall, was an unexpected hit. A lot of people were like, it's based on a ride at Disney World. WTF. I didn't even remember that that's where it came from.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

You're right. It was like if they made it's a small world into a movie. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Yeah. Right. People were like,

Why A Ride Movie Worked

SPEAKER_01 4:22

what is this gonna be? This is gonna be ridiculous. Why why why are they throwing so much money at this? This is so stupid. So nobody expected anything good of it. And then they got big names associated with it. Now, Kira Knightley was, I think, 17 or 18. So she was not a big name yet. And then, same thing with Orlando Bloom. He was an emerging star. Johnny Depp was already a star. Johnny Depp was established. He was about 40, but he made weird films. He did, that's true. Had Bendit Like Beckham come out yet? Oh, it was yeah the year before. Yes. So Bendit Like Beckham had come out, but Jeffrey Rush was also associated with it. He's Captain Barbosa. So he's like a well-known and serious actor. And then Jonathan Price, who plays Kira Knightley's father, was also in it. And he another serious actor. And so people are like, what is this? So that was part of the reason why I was interested in it. And this gets to one of the things that I like, which is people taking the craft seriously, but not themselves, which is very much what this film is. And that is actually why I love this film and don't particularly care for the franchise. It just started becoming trying to milk the cash cow. Sure. This film is very tightly written, although I think the film itself could be, they could cut probably 20 or 30 minutes of runtime and not lose anything. But it's really well written. It's just part of the reason why it did better than expected. Then Johnny Depp, who I his acting choices I respect, the person himself I do not. And I'm gonna want to talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

The way that he played Captain Jack Sparrow came about because he described pirates as rock stars of the 18th century, and then he based his performance on Keith Richards and stole the show. Totally. And that is right there. If he had played it more straight, or if they had had like they were talking about Hugh Jackman and other stars playing Captain Jack Sparrow, movie would have flopped. Right. Would not have worked. And so talking about what it means that pirates are rock stars, and how that's kind of offensive in both directions. So I want to talk about that. One of the things that I appreciate about the film is that it actually does a really good job of like the both and kind of nuance that we talk about, because they're consistently saying that Bootstrap Bill, who is Orlando Bloom's father, was a good man and a pirate, that those are not opposites. So I appreciate that there is the this understanding of there's more complexity than just good person or pirate. You can be one thing or another. I want to talk about how this film feels very American in a lot of ways, and how that might feel weird for the British actors in it, because they represent the rule followers who are kind of ridiculous and get bested by the more American and for the most part the American actors who play the good pirates who break the rules and win. And then I want to talk a little bit about the performative feminism that we saw a lot of in the early 2000s that annoyed me even at the time. So that's kind of where we're going with this. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Well, since all I remember is Johnny Depp's eyeliner, remind me of the plot of this movie made based on a ride at Disney World.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah, yeah. I don't want to go through the whole thing. So I'm gonna tell you what's who the characters are, and then kind of a basic synopsis. So the straight characters, meaning the ones who, you know, just

Plot Setup And Cursed Treasure

SPEAKER_01 8:14

are could be in any swashbuckling romance, is we've got Miss Elizabeth Swan, played by Kira Knightley, who we meet for the first time in the crossing from England to Port Royal in the Caribbean when she's about 10 years old. She is the daughter of Governor Swan, played by Jonathan Price. During the crossing, she sees a boy who is floating on a shipwreck, who is also making the crossing from England. The boy is Will Turner, who will be played by Orlando Bloom as an adult. He is going to become the apprentice to a blacksmith. When she sees him, he has a gold medallion around his neck that she thinks means he's a pirate. And so she's afraid that he will be hanged because that's just what they do in Port Royal. They hang pirates. So they have had an affinity for each other since childhood, but because he's just a blacksmith's apprentice and she is the daughter of the governor, they can never actually be together. There is also Captain now Commodore Norrington, who is the military leader of the fleet of ships in Port Royal, who is in love with Elizabeth and wants to marry her. And that's basically everyone in Port Royal that you need to know. On the pirate side, we've got Captain Jack Sparrow. He is the former captain of the Black Pearl, which is supposed to be the fastest ship in the Caribbean. The Intercept is the fastest ship in Port Royal. The only ship that can beat the Intercept is the Black Pearl. Ten years prior to the events of the film, Jack was on his way to Ilam de Muerta, the Isle of Death, to find the treasure of Cortez that had been cursed. It was cursed treasure that the Aztecs gave to Cortez to try to get him to stop killing them. When he gave the location to his first mate Barbosa, and Barbosa then led a mutiny and left Jack on an island with just a single pistol with a shot in it, because there's not much you can do with it except kill yourself after several days of starving to death. And then Barbosa and his crew, including Bootstrap Bill, Will Turner's father, went on to steal the treasure, which turned out to be cursed, which made them basically zombies. They can never feel pleasure or pain when they eat. The food turns to ash in their mouths, the drink doesn't slick their thirst. No pleasurable company can slick their lust. And they cannot die. And moonlight shows what they are, they appear as skeletons in the moonlight. So they have spent the 10 years since they realized this trying to find all of the medallions. There were 882 of them that they had spent once they realized what had happened, and then giving up their blood, putting it back where they found it. But they had, because Bootstrap Bill had been uncomfortable with the mutiny, they had put him overboard, which means the poor man is a zombie in the sea. Like at the bottom of the ocean. At the bottom of the ocean, yeah. So he's like constantly drowning, but not. That sounds like Greek tragedy type stuff. It's awful. Because he had sent his medallion to his son. And that's the one that Elizabeth took off of Will. So they have been searching for that last one. And because Bootstrap is at the bottom of the sea, they need to find his child to get the blood from his child. They knew he had a kid, but they didn't know anything else about his kid. So at the onset of the story, Elizabeth has a dream about the day she met Will. She goes and finds the medallion. It is dusty, so it's clear she doesn't look at it that often. And she's interrupted and puts it on her neck to hide it when her father comes in. This becomes important because she later falls into the ocean and the medallion sets out, sends out a pulse because and it calls to the cursed pirates because they can feel it because it's in the water. So they come and siege, like attack Port Royal the same day Jack Sparrow arrives in Port Royal. Jack rescues Elizabeth from the water. And even though he's just rescued the governor's daughter, because he's the pirate, they're going to kill him. He then threatens her to get out of being almost killed and goes to the blacksmith to break his chains, where he gets into a fight with Will Turner, one of many. He's subdued again and is put in jail where they plan to hang him in the morning. It's overnight when the Black Pearl arrives. The pirates come and kidnap Elizabeth. She tells Barbosa her name is Elizabeth Turner. And in the meantime, Norrington has proposed to her, but she hasn't given an answer because she had fallen in the water. Because she was wearing a corset and couldn't breathe. So they take her with them. She knows they want the medallion. They take her with them and she doesn't realize that they're not going to put her back on shore. And she learns that they are cursed and with the skeleton thing and stuff like that, because they look normal, normal, unless the moonlight's shining on them. Will goes to Norrington, is like, we have to go after her. And Norrington brushes him off. So Will goes to Jack Sparrow and says, That's your ship, the Black Pearl. You know where they're going. Help me. And Jack is uninterested until Will tells him his name is Will Turner. And Jack doesn't say so, but makes it clear, like, he's like, oh, Will is short for William, I'm sure, right? Name for your father. And like, so they do this delightful maneuver to steal the Intercept by stealing the Dauntless, which is the other main ship, and then getting the whole entire Navy to get the Intercept to come after them. And then they take the Intercept because they would not have been able to get the Dauntless out of the harbor, just the two of them. And then they have disabled the Dauntless, so it can't come after them. It's a delightful plan. They then go to Tortuga to raise a crew and then go to La Muerta, where they find Barbosa and the crew with Elizabeth. They return the medallion and just cut her palm. It's just a little bit of blood because she's afraid that they're thinking they're going to kill her. And it doesn't do anything because she's not actually Bill Turner's child. Will ends up betraying Jack Sparrow and returning to the Intercept with Elizabeth. Jack tells Barbosa that he knows where Bootstrap's child is and who he is, and is trying to manipulate and work his way into getting what he wants. The Pearl chases after the Intercept. They end up firing on them. And the Pearl wins the fight, and Will figures out what the everything is and basically gets them to release Elizabeth by saying, I will kill myself in the water so that you can never lift the curse if you don't release her. And so they do, but since they're pirates, they do it the way that they double cross. And so they have her walk the plank to the same island where Jack had been marooned 10 years before. And so they also maroon Jack there. And they have also sunk the intercept. We finally find out how Jack escaped because it was a big mystery this whole time. People have different stories about how he escaped, and they're all each one is more ridiculous than the last. We finally find out it's the island had been a cache for rum runners. They left rum there. He'd been there for three days when the rum runners came by and he negotiated a passage. But the rum runners don't work anymore because Captain Norrington has run them out of business. So they're stuck there. So Elizabeth encourages Jack to get so drunk he passes out, and then she burns all of the rum. So it makes a huge fire. And because her father and Norrington are looking for her, they arrive. Her father and Norrington refuse to go rescue Will. And so she says to Norrington, please do this for me as a wedding present. And so he agrees. They go to Illa Muerta, and Jack Sparrow says, like, here's how we can do this. And he is again playing both sides. He goes in alone and suggests that Norrington stays out and they will fire on the Black Pearls crew as they come out. But what he doesn't realize is they are going to instead take the boats, they walk underwater and climb up onto the Dauntless and attack that way. Meanwhile, Jack has made it clear to Will you wait for the right moment. And Jack steals one of the gold pieces. So he becomes cursed as well. So he's immortal. And so he and Barbosa end up fighting. Elizabeth comes in and is helping Will. And at the exact right moment, Will and Jack return their pieces, cut and cut themselves. And so that Jack is able to kill Barbosa. With that one shot, with the one shot, which he had been saving for 10 years. And in the final scene, they have brought Jack back to Port Royal and they are hanging him. Will comes to see where Norrington, the governor, and Elizabeth are standing. He tells Elizabeth, I should have told you this every day from the day I met you. I love you. And then he goes to rescue Jack. He throws a sword, which we know he can do, so that Jack can stand on it so that he doesn't fall and cuts him down and they fight their way out, but then they are surrounded because they're surrounded. Elizabeth stands with them to say, like, you're gonna have to kill me too. And of course, the governor's like, No, no, no, protect my daughter. Basically, they allow Jack to get away, and Elizabeth says, I want to be with Will, and the governor gives his blessing, and we see Jack meet up with the black pearl, and he resumes his captaincy of his ship. And that's the end of the movie. Okay. Relatively concise. It's pretty good for us.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

So if the zombie pirates can walk on the ocean floor, why didn't Bootstrap Bill just walk to land?

SPEAKER_01 19:23

I think they did something to him. I don't remember. Like but it is explained. It's not in this film. Okay. Cool. All right. So where do you want to start? Johnny Depp's portrayal. Okay. For anyone who wasn't around before then, that's not what pirates were like. Like now when you see pirates, like you always see pirates like that now. But that wasn't what pirates were like before then.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Do you mean in like popular culture? Yeah.

How Jack Sparrow Changed Pirates

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Or do you mean like okay, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

So, like, just meaning like if you go to like Spirit Halloween and you see like a generic pirate costume, it will look like Jack Sparrow. That will look like Jack Sparrow. And that is what we think of as pirate in pop culture now. And then his weird way of talking and acting and all of that. And like the eye makeup, that is all part of like what Johnny Depp brought, or the people around this movie.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

With Johnny Depp. It was Johnny Depp. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Like, like the shit and his hair was all here. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

It wasn't like a costume. Well, I mean, like, he wanted to make he was like, let me do weird. I want this to be weird. And like he and Gorb Verbinski had to fight for it. Because like Eisner, who was the head of Disney at the time, was like, what the fuck is this? Why are we doing this? And they were worried because there was a movie based on a ride in 2002 called like Bear Country, or I don't really know that ride, that flopped. Everybody hated it. And so they were like worried. And then Johnny Depp comes in being all Johnny Depp. And they're like, who? What? Why?

SPEAKER_00 21:16

So And Pirates, like, I think of Captain Hook as like the, you know, which I who was much more formal. Like, I mean, Hook is like from this children's depiction, but like there was a formality and a ruthlessness, which I think we get in the other pirates, Barbosa, but like Depp, I mean, in some ways, in my mind, like Depp made possible our flag means death. Oh, yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's based on true events. Yeah. But like the way that we receive Captain Steed and even Blackbeard in our flag means death, like, I think we need like we, the broadest cultural. We needed Depp's Jack Sparrow to like open us up to receiving these like weird and touchy-feely, even though they're based on real people.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah. And like, now some of it is like the other aspect of this was like part of the reason why it was expected to flop was because pirate movies didn't do well. Like they they used to, like the Errol Flynn era. Uh-huh. But in the early 2000s, that's not where we were. Yeah. And like we hadn't had pirate movies that did well since like the 50s, maybe. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

I mean, there's Pirates of Penzance and like all of that, but Oh, but that was a but Pirates of Penzance is a is a spoof, right? Taking the idea of a pirate decently seriously. Yeah. Like not since like mutiny on the bounty.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

And then the other thing about Captain Hook is that it's very sanitized. Hook is, yeah. Hook is, yeah. Whereas these pirates are dirty. Because that was the other thing that Eisner objected to. Johnny Depp had like gold caps in his teeth, and he's like, What are you doing to your teeth? And he's like, I'm a pirate. Same thing with like the braids in his beard and stuff like that. And like if you look at his hands, they are gross. Like grimy nails and stuff. Grimy nails and yeah. And similar, like now, the thing is, if you look, if I don't know how recently you've been to the Pirates of the Caribbean ride. I mean, it was with you in the 80s. Okay. So I was there just last year. There is some like there's some grittiness to the pirates, but it's still like it's campiness. Uh-huh. And like, this is certainly campy. Yeah. But you do feel you feel the grime. So and that when I say I can respect the choices that Johnny Depp makes as an actor to some extent. It was another Gore Vrabinsky uh movie that flopped where um Depp played Tonto in The Lone Ranger. Yeah, that's a bad look. I have trouble respecting that. But the fact that Depp took his craft seriously, but not at all himself. It's pretty great. He made a character that has is iconic to the point where a hundred years from now people are not going to recognize where it came from that this is what we think of when we think of pirates.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Right. That is cool.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

That's really, really cool.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah. Let's see. Can we stay here? Because the postcard you gave me was Depp saying pirates are rock stars of the 18th century. And your response is that's insulting in both directions. Tell me why.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

So the idea that pirates are the rock stars of the 18th century. Well, first of all, a pirate is

Pirates As Rock Stars Debate

SPEAKER_01 25:00

like we have this idea of a pirate as a thing. Whereas, like it's not like you're in high school and your guidance counselor is like, so let's see what kind of career you want to do. Similarly, rock star is not something you're a guidance counselor as you go towards. But piracy is something that you do in part because of economic need. So the idea that pirates are the rock stars of the 18th century is like insulting because it's an economic reality that you become. And it's insulting also because rock stars are aspirational. And I don't think pirates were ever aspirational. That's that's insulting. Like people don't want to be pirates. Like, why are you saying they are the rock stars of the 18th century? Like, are they the rock stars of the 18th century to us now? Because we are far enough removed that we can romanticize them. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

I don't know. I'm not a historian of the 18th century. Well, and I'm not sure if that's what Johnny Depp was saying. Like, well, I think what he was saying that was though that there was like a notoriety. This is what I like, yeah. Just based on you saying it, I'm just responding to what you you know, you saying it. There was a notoriety and uh like a name recognition, a brand recognition, you know, like Blackbeard was the most feared pirate of like whatever, you know, that sort of thing, in a way that like today we might talk about the notoriety of rock stars. I mean, the difference in I hear the I actually in what you just said, I hear the insult insofar as like rock stars are artists and they gain notoriety because of their ability to either create art or to entertain us, whether or not you like their art, versus pirates who do what they do, as you say, for an economic necessity. And also like their notoriety is for living outside of the kind of lane, like outside the prescribed lane and making money as privateers and as merchants, like catch is catch can, as opposed to sort of like, you know, these are the ways that people make money.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Yeah. Now, if we just say it like that, okay, sure, they are rock stars. Notoriety thing. Well, the notoriety and making money outside of the normal way.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Well, I was I was actually suggesting, yes, yes. I was actually suggesting that might be a way of saying that's an insult because like a rock star cre is creating art and a pirate is like stealing things and selling it.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Now, the other thing though is like pirates raped and pillaged and destroyed. Like that's the other thing. Like the reason why pirates were notorious was because they left destruction in their wake. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

And trauma.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

That's insulting. That's insulting.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Yeah. Although the fact that he chose Keith Richards, I mean, like the stones were known, but like, weren't they notorious for like trash in hotel rooms and groupies and stuff? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

So that's insulting to rock stars. But then it's also like, in some ways, it's insulting to pirates because the fact that I think that pirates might have just uh like the known ones, I guess, are not necessarily doing this. But the ones who are just trying to survive to survive are not like the dissolute rock stars who are destroying things and are like complete assholes to the unrepentant. Yeah, yeah. But then there is, I think, something to like what you're saying, like, yeah, trashing hotel rooms and like the problem with the Altamont where the Rolling Stones hired Hell's Angels. Hell's Angels. As security and people died. Yeah. So like I kind of understand where Johnny Depp said that and where that came from. And that's, I guess, where my respect for him as an artist comes from is he makes those creative leaps that most people will be like, What the fuck are you talking about, Depp? Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Right. And by making that leap and modeling his performance after Richards, then he's created this iconic character, as you say, that informs all pirates that come after. Yes. All depictions of pirates, I should say.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

All depictions. Yeah. And like is a delightful character and uh scene stealing, charming, funny, hilarious, like just amazing. Just an amazing performance that he got like all kinds of nominations for. So, like, essence of creativity.

SPEAKER_03 29:39

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

And weird as fuck, which is great. Like it's so great. So I really appreciate that. And that again, that's what elevates this from something that honestly would have flopped. As good as Jeffrey Rush and Orlando Bloom and Kira Knightley and Jonathan Price and Jack Davenport, who plays Norrington, all of them are great. Like they are all very good actors. But it's just a a dimestore romance. Yeah. With them. And even with the curse, because originally they they did not have the supernatural element. And the supernatural element also, I think, makes this a better story.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

It changes the stakes.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

Yes. So while we're talking about story, like and and the stakes of the storytelling, like let's talk about you, you named that the the writing is part of, in addition to Depp's performance, part of what made this a success, when it by all measures, maybe should have been a flop. So talk to me about that. Talk to me about the storytelling.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

So it's very tidy how it handles things. So the fact that when we first the first scene that we see is Elizabeth's dream, where she's remembering the dream is when she first met Will Turner. And so what that does is it gives us this exposition that introduces these characters as children and introduces the medallion,

Tight Writing And Smart Exposition

SPEAKER_01 30:58

also introduces how Port Royal handles pirates, just it all of this introduction. And like the thing is starting with a dream, starting with a character waking up is so cliche, but it's cliche because it's effective and it's efficient.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Also, this is a movie based on a ride.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yeah. When you do a cliche really well, it just shivers. It starts off with like an ocean and fog, and you hear a small child's voice singing the song from the ride. Yo, ho, yo, ho. And it's very creepy. And it's the child playing Child Elizabeth singing it by herself. So like it sets the tone. And so that is very efficient. And what we then do is we see like her eyes as a child, and then like a cut to Kira Knightley's eyes as she wakes up. And so because she was thinking about it, we see her go find the medallion in a drawer and it's dusty. So we know that this is not something that she does often. And it's been a and it's been a long time. It's been a long time. And not just because she's aged, but just, you know. Yeah. So we then also have the tightness of the storytelling that we've already seen that her father is overprotective and kind of overbearing. And then he knocks and comes in the door, comes in her bedroom, like without really giving her time to hide the medallion again. So she puts it on. We've already established that with what she remembers from her dream. And he has brought her a gift. It is a new dress with a corset, because it's the biggest fashion in London. They're a little behind the times in the Caribbean. And it's her first corset, and her maids are helping her put it on. And she's complaining, like she's like, ladies in London must have learned how not to breathe. And she has to wear, she's keeping the medallion on because it's the only way to hide it from her dad. And he is telling her that Captain Norrington is getting promoted that day, and that he thinks that he will want to talk to her as well. So, like all of this, really well done. Like suggestions about things. So, and we see, because it's a hot day, we see her during the ceremony, like fanning herself and having trouble breathing. And when Norrington afterwards asks her to speak, he takes her to it's this like kind of balcony over the water, and it's way high up. And she's fanning herself, and he tells her, like, this is thrown into stark relief. This promotion is thrown into stark relief. What I have not yet achieved. Marriage to a fine woman, you have grown to be a fine woman, Elizabeth. And like he kind of turns his back because he's like so overcome, he can't look at her. And she says, I can't breathe. And he thinks it's with emotion. But she literally can't breathe because look at her. She literally can't breathe. So just this part the fashion, the doting but overbearing father, the fact that the medallion is something that she doesn't look at often, but because of the way her father treats her, she has to wear it. The corset, she can't breathe. It's a hot day, she falls in the water. Like just gorgeous. Just gorgeous, perfect writing. All of it is it's character driven. The exposition is seamless. Like it's not and the setup is so plausible. All of it. All of it is so plausible. And then meanwhile, that Jack Sparrow is in a spot where he can save her, also plausible. We see like how he happens to be, he is on either the interceptor or the dauntless, because he's trying to steal a ship. And there are only two soldiers guarding the ships, and they did not send the brain trusts because everyone else is at the ceremony.

SPEAKER_03 34:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

And so when she goes in, Norrington tries to jump in after her, and everyone like stops and is like, the rocks, like it's a miracle she missed them. And so Jack is with the two soldiers and he's like, Will you be saving her then? And they both go, I can't swim. And he's like, oh, fine, and jumps in after her. So, like, it's just, it's gorgeous. Like, and not what you would expect from like a shitty big budget summer blockbuster based on a ride. Based on a ride.

unknown 35:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

So the thing though, I note that like the corset is like part of the tight writing that makes all this stuff plausible. So while we're talking about corsets, like you mentioned that you wanted to talk about the sort of performative feminism of the early 2000s. Tell me what you mean by that and how Elizabeth fits into that. What's what's going on?

SPEAKER_01 35:51

So I can remember, even though I wanted to see the film in the trailer, there's a moment in the film, and it made it into the trailer, where Elizabeth says, You want to know about pain? Try wearing a corset before hitting one of the bad pirates. And I remember even at the time

Performative Feminism And Elizabeth Swan

SPEAKER_01 36:10

as a 24-year-old going, Oh, for fuck's sake. It's like a man wrote that line. And he did, because the screenwriter, screenwriters are all men. And that's kind of what I mean about performative feminism. And like the same thing with the like, oh, the ladies in London must have learned how not to breathe. And Elizabeth as a character, and I think Kira Knightley did a bang up job with what she was given. But Elizabeth as a character is written in a way that feels like, look, see here. This is a strong woman. See, see, this is a strong woman. She is really feisty and snarky, and she doesn't do what her dad says. And see how strong she is? And she is gonna say silly things about corsets and stuff. And look, she's gonna house this turkey leg because she's not like other girls.

unknown 37:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Okay, I hear, I hear the critique. So my question for you is and it's been a long time since I've seen this movie, maybe since it was new-ish. I assume that by your pointing this out, like it's not backed up. Like, is she given agency? Does she claim agency? Like, I like I hear you saying, like, she's there's performative ph feminism in the same way that like the Spice Girls were like girl power, but then also, you know, and we did an episode about the Spice Girls. It was a both hand with them. Like, tell me, like, what substance, if any, is behind that?

SPEAKER_01 37:43

So there is a bit of a both and so she uses what agency she has. So when her father and Norrington refuse to go save Will, she says, Okay, I will marry you, Norrington, if you go save my boyfriend, basically. Sort of buttercup. Yeah. Yeah. And like right on, Elizabeth, do what you have to do. She knows how to get out of sticky situations with pirates by invoking parlay, because the code requires you to get a meeting with the captain or whoever the leader is. She, when she is locked up when they go to rescue Will, they lock her up in the captain's quarters. And so she breaks out and takes a rowboat to go and do stuff. When the black pearl is attacking the inter or yeah, the interceptor, and this is the other thing, it passes Bechtelt in a squeaker because one of the members of the crew that they gather in Tortuga is a woman named Anna Maria who is played by Zoe Saldana, and they talk about strategy. And so Elizabeth has good strategic ideas. Okay. So there's some of that, but they also like when she does her stand where she like gets in front of Will and Jack and says, like, if you're gonna shoot them, you have to shoot me too. I watched this with my 15-year-old last night, and he was like, Why are the governor in Norrington just letting them go? And I was like, plot armor, they just are. And he was absolutely right because basically what she does, the agency she has is given to her. Her father gives her his blessing just because. Like, she's not actually like she's exercising her agency, but it's just because it was written in 2003 that she actually gets what she wants. An actual young woman in the 18th century would have been like, nope. Her father would have been like, You want to marry a blacksmith now? Absolutely not. You're marrying Norrington. You are going to be tied literally into the mansion and have lots of babies. So that's kind of what I mean by performative feminism. And like, I'm not asking for realism in a movie about zombie vampire, zombie pirates.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Right, right. No, I I don't I hear what I hear is not a critique that it's not realistic, but rather that there's a lot of attention drawn to it, like in the way that you just kind of mimicked, like, see, see, see, like this and the the comments about corsets and stuff that were like trying to get feminist cookies as opposed to actually like figuring out and and it sounds like they backed it up a little bit to the extent that they could in the story and the time that it was being written. It's an interesting question. It's always an interesting question. Like, if a woman had been in the writer's room, like how would Elizabeth have changed? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

I feel like she could have been more involved in that final scene. Uh-huh. That would have been a true test of her agency. Because all of that was like what Will did was ultimately kind of useless. I mean, it wasn't. It got him off of because he said if he said, All if all I've done is given the um the hangman two pairs of boots, then I I'll consider it good. Because you saved Jack, but if you know, we're both hanged, okay, fine. So it wasn't useless. But it's only because she is saying to her father when they're hanging Jack, like, this is wrong, but it's not doing anything. Anyway, the other the moment that, like, where I'm talking about like the housing the turkey leg, like Barbosa invites her to eat with him. When he she first starts, she's eating the way she's been taught, with like a single fork full and like very and then he's like daintily, and he's like, uh, there's no need to stand on ceremony, you must be hungry. And she like immediately like drops the fork and like ha ha rah. And he's like, here. And like she's like housing everything. And he's acting weird, and it's because he can't taste anything. And that is the another one of those a part of the performative feminism because Kira Knightley is a slip of a thing.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and so it's tiny.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

Yeah. And it's the like, oh yeah, not like other girls. I can put away food. Yeah, but I'm still, but I'm still I'm still size zero. Yeah. So, and that's I'm not in any way having a problem with Kira Knightley for that. That's the right thing.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Sure, sure. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

But that I remember that pissing me off at the time too. Because it was per first of all, I'm like, I'm sorry. That young woman who has been raised the way that she has would not drop it that quickly, no matter how hungry she is. Uh-uh. And then secondly, like, why are we doing this? What are we doing in this moment? What is this scene showing us? Now, yes, showing us she's hungry and like then slowly realizing, like, whoa, he's being really weird. Is he poisoning me? And like, it is how we come to understand what the curse is. So we only have a little bit of time. I really want to make sure I get to the both end nuance. Yeah, talk to me about that. So, Will doesn't know who his father was. He had been told he was a merchant sailor. And so when he learns that his father was a pirate, everyone says bootstrap Bill was a good man and a pirate. And he's like, No, he was not a pirate, he was a good man. And that's repeated multiple times, where people will say Jack Sparrow was a good man and a pirate. And over time it becomes clear that

Good Man And Pirate Both True

SPEAKER_01 43:22

the very binary thinking of Norrington and the governor of like pirates are bad. If you're good, you're not a pirate, is wrong. And then also the idea that you either play by the rules or you're bad is also wrong. And there's a point where Jack and Will are arguing because Jack defeated Will in their first fight, and Will said, I would have beat you in a fair fight. And Jack says, That doesn't give me much motivation to fight fair, then does it? Which is a really good point. And it's in part because of like the time of when this is set and then the uniforms that the officers wear. It reminds me of Revolutionary War and the things that my third grade teacher taught me about how like the British officers were wearing these red coats with a white X target target right over their heart. And so the Americans were in guerrilla warfare and hiding, and like the British were like, that's not fair.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

And the Americans were like, uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

So that both and nuance of like it can be fair to fight unfair if we're trying to protect my own life or protect other people. And you can be both a good person and someone who breaks the rules is actually, I think, kind of a remarkably nuanced take for a blockbuster summer film based on a ride at Disney World.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

With zombie pirates.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

That it is so difficult for people to recognize yes, you can like something and critique it. Yes, something can be good and have problems. Yes, someone can have broken the law and still deserve a second chance.

SPEAKER_03 45:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

You know, I think it's so in our, we don't have time to get all the way into it, but I think it will be interesting in our shit we forgot to say, bonus content to sort of tease that out a little further with the binary of British and American, which is overlain on this, because I think that's part of it too. Like we Americans, like per your example of your third grade teacher, like we kind of pride ourselves on breaking the rules if we think the rules are stupid. And so that makes that both end a little easier to for the American audience to accept. Because we're like, yeah, you're a rule breaker, but the rules are stupid. So we don't need your stupid rules. Yeah. So you're still a good person. So like I think there's more even to tease out on the British and American duality that you pointed to that we don't have time for here, but we will, I'm sure, get into in our in our bonus content. So let me reflect back to you what we did talk about in this main episode. We started actually talking about Johnny Depp and his performance and this Pirates of the Rock Stars of the 19th, 18th century, of the 18th century, that he said famously, and we we spent kind of significant time talking about what does that actually mean? And is it fair or accurate? Is it an insult, as you suggest, in both directions, both an insult to pirates and to rock stars? We then talked about Johnny Depp's performance based on that and the way in which he has changed the way Western culture imagines pirates, like just completely changed the way that we imagine pirates, which is really interesting. There was a footnote, which we will, I'm sure, also talk about in the shit we forgot to say about the fact that you, we, you respect Johnny Depp's acting choices, but not him as a person. And the fact that he made this creative connection between rock stars and pirates, rightly or wrongly, modeled his behavior and movements after Keith Richards. And now we have this iconic character. And you name that as like the soul of creativity or something like that, like true creativity in that, which I think is worth naming. The fact that he and his director had to fight for it. And now, in your opinion, I don't think you're wrong, is part of what made this movie a success. Let's see. We talked some about the storytelling, the fact that this movie is fairly tightly written and the ways in which, though it leans on cliches, it does it well in ways that are satisfying so that exposition happens without exposition. There are all these hints to different things that the viewer is like brought along on. You noted a couple of times the fact that the medallion that we see in the dream, we now see in the the now with dust all over it, which tells us multiple things about it and all of this sort of things with from the overbearing dad to the corset that like set up a very plausible setup for then the sequence of events that follow. We spent some time talking about the what you named as performative feminism of the early 2000s. So Elizabeth Swan is an example of it. You named it it, you know, especially in from these male writers, this like very self-conscious, like, look at how not like other girls this girl is, right? This tiny 17-year-old girl, which we may get into a little bit also. And then lastly, we spent a little bit of time talking about the holding both and, and that the, that this is part of the thesis of this movie, I think, because it is repeated so often and rejected, but then eventually accepted, Bootstrap Bill was a good man and a pirate. And and with Will saying, like, no, he was a good man, and at the end accepting good man and pirate can coexist, rule break, it's not, it's not a it's not a duality in the way that the rule-following villains, well, sort of villains, of the the captain, the commodore, and the governor would have us believe. So, listeners, head over to our Patreon to hear our additional thoughts, which we will explore. We are out of time. Next week, I have no idea what I'm bringing you. I don't know either. Well, we'll find out when I get here, won't we? All right, next time. This show is a labor of love,

Wrap Up And Patreon Plug

SPEAKER_00 50:19

but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon. There's a link in the show notes, or leave a positive review so others can find us. And of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com. Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head?