The Nanny with Zina Kumok: Deep Thoughts About Yiddish, Subverting Jewish Stereotypes in Pop Culture, and Elevated Mob Wife Fashion Artwork

Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Comedy Podcast

80s and 90s movies and early 2000s tv may be called stupid shit by some, but you know it matters. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, sister podcasters who love well-crafted fiction and one another. In this comedy podcast, we look at the classic movies of our Gen X childhood and adolescence, analyzing film tropes to uncover the cultural commentary on romance, money, religion, mental health, and more. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, comedy to drama to horror, we use feminism, our super smart brains, and each other to uncover the lessons lurking behind the nostalgia of pop culture. Come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.

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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Comedy Podcast

The Nanny with Zina Kumok: Deep Thoughts About Yiddish, Subverting Jewish Stereotypes in Pop Culture, and Elevated Mob Wife Fashion

February 24, 2026 • Sister podcasters raised by 80s and 90s movies: Tracie Guy-Decker, lover of animation, Muppets, comedy, and feminism & Emily Guy Birken, storytelling nerd, mental health advocate, and pop culture aficionado • Episode 125

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"But I've got style, I've got flair. How did I become the nanny?"

On this week's episode of Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, the Guy sisters welcome Emily's colleague Zina Kumok to share her analysis of the 1990s-era sitcom The Nanny, starring Fran Drescher. All three women appreciated the pop culture representation of a beautiful and funny working class Jewish woman on this TV show, since Drescher's portrayal of the titular nanny subverted many stereotypes about Jews, even as it leaned into others as part of the weekly fish-out-of-water comedy.

While not everything in the show has aged as well as Nanny Fine's amazing sense of style, comedic timing, and parenting psychology--specifically, there's some unpleasant 90s era fat shaming that we don't have much nostalgia for, and it's a little difficult to tell if there's an undercurrent of feminism in a show whose main character is obsessed with romance and marriage--but this piece of late 20th century pop culture is definitely worth a rewatch. Come for the one-liners and blue comedy that soared over your head the first time you watched it, stay for subversive pop culture that offers some trenchant cultural commentary on class, money, religion, and sex.

Good things come to those who wait, sir. Unless they wait too long and then they slip through their namby-pamby fingers. So don't delay in throwing on your headphones and listening in to this episode!

Welcome And Why The Nanny

SPEAKER_01 0:00

It's funny, as a kid, I feel like what stood out was she was basically like the fun nanny. She was kind of like that fun mom archetype of like, you know, she would give the girls tips on like makeup and clothes and all that, but also, you know, be aware of like, hey, you're 18 and you're trying to date a 25-year-old. Like, no, that's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just up culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit. Because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I am so pleased to welcome my friend Zina Kumak, who will be sharing her deep thoughts about the 1990s era sitcom The Nanny with my sister, Tracy Guy Decker, and with you. Let's dive in.

Guest Intro: Zina Kumak

SPEAKER_02 1:06

So I am so glad to welcome Zina Kumak. She is a dear friend of mine who is a licensed financial advisor and nationally recognized personal finance writer and speaker. That's how we know each other. Her advice has been featured in Money Magazine, Nerd Wallet, and The Wall Street Journal. She has written for publications like Business Insider, Bankrate, and Invistopedia. She also paid off $28,000 of student loans in three years. As a financial wellness speaker, she has spoken to organizations and groups including Creative Mornings, the Broward County Library, and ScholarCon. She is available for one-on-one help at chdouglas.com, and all of this will be available in our show notes. So welcome, Zina. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm super excited.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

So when you mentioned that you wanted to talk about the nanny, I was pretty psyched about it because it was a show that was on when I was in high school. And I remember a lot of my friends would talk about it. And it was one of those shows that it was not appointment TV for me. But every time I saw it, I laughed and I really enjoyed it. I always really liked

First Memories And Cultural Impact

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Fran Drasher. There was a joke that still sticks with me where she and I think her mother were talking about, and I wish I could remember the setup, but it was something about how it was a funeral home that used to be a Chinese food restaurant. And they were worried that, you know, once you went there, you would grieve, and then after an hour you'd feel the need to grieve again.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

It's so good. It's just like rapport.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Yeah. And that has lived rent-free in my head for 30 years. So that has stuck with me. And I remember talking to one of my close friends in high school about the show. And it was appointment TV for him. He was like, Oh, I never miss it. And so I just remember it being a very important cultural touchstone, even though it was one I kind of drifted in and out of. So those were some things that I remember about it. I remember really loving Fran Dresher, like leaning into being Jewish with both her voice and the fact that she talked about being Jewish. There was a lot of Yiddish that she used. That was a part of her character that was very important. It was the cultural aspect of her character. And then also the clothing that she wore, like that were, I felt like were stereotypically kind of Jewish. You know, that this idea that, you know, leopard prints and things like that were something that Jewish women wore, but she was glamorous and gorgeous.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Like I watch it back. She is so beautiful. She is, yeah, glamorous and fabulous. And her like, I want to rate her wardrobe so bad. It's like a lot of design, it's like elevated mob wife, I would say.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

That's an excellent way of describing it. Yeah. So those are those are kind of the things that that I have in my head. And then Mr. Sheffield was like just a tall drink of water. Like I can see why she had a crush on him all that time. Yeah. And then the enmity, and I do not remember their names, but the blonde woman and the butler. The enmity. C.C. and Niles. Yes, Cece and Niles. That I also remember really enjoying. So those are the things that are in my head about it. Tracy, what this would have been out when you were in college, so it kind of probably just passed you by.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

No, not completely. Like you, I sort of drifted in and out. It was never, it wasn't one of my like touchstones, but I

Jewishness And Representation

SPEAKER_03 4:45

definitely have seen multiple episodes, like when it was new and enjoyed them. What's in my head about it actually is some of the same things that you're talking about. One of the things that like always kind of struck me as interesting was, and maybe we'll get into this, like, there's definitely like class as a piece of this, right? Because of Mr. Sheffield's wealth versus Franz. But also, and also she's Jewish, but she's the lower income, like the lower class in the hierarchy. And so that always felt sort of interesting to me. Cause I feel like there are some Jewish stereotypes that come out in the person of her character, or at least in my head, there were. I don't know if that's actually accurate, but in my head there are. And yet the wealth inequality is not where the Jewish person is the super wealthy person. And I, and in my head, that was like, oh, cool. That's a good thing. Right. Like that felt like a thing to like counter some of the dangerous stereotypes about Jewishness. So that's one of the things that's in my head. And like some of the things you guys have that you have already talked about, just how gorgeous Fran Dresher was at the time. And and the juxtaposition of how physically beautiful. And then that I hope put on, but maybe not, like that sort of super nasal voice of hers that like is maybe takes some getting used to, possibly. I felt that or there was a juxtaposition between the way she spoke and the way she looked, which was part of the comedy, I think. So those are some of the things that are in my head. I again, it was not a regular thing, but they're definitely, it's not a it's not a tabula rasa for me for the nanny. So that's where I'm coming from. But Zina, like when we talked about having you, we invited you on the podcast, you were like, yeah, I want to talk about the nanny. So, like, why is the nanny so important to you? What's special about it for you? What's at stake?

SPEAKER_01 6:36

You know, I would definitely say it wasn't like when I was growing up, my parents were really nice about letting me watch almost anything I wanted. And so I watched a lot of Golden Girls reruns with my mom, designing women reruns with my mom. And again, also we kind of, I don't remember us watching a lot of the nanny as oh, we have to see this. It wasn't, I remember watching ER every Thursday as a child, like I have to watch the show about the Chicago hospital. But also, again, I don't know. Yeah, the nanny was kind of like, oh, when I watched it, I liked it, but I didn't seek it out or didn't like I wasn't aware of like, oh, the reruns error on these days or whatever. And then sometime I think during lockdown, I was going through shows of like, I'm gonna watch all of Friends for the first time. I'm gonna watch all of like this show for the first time. And I did that with a nanny, and I was like, holy crap, this is so funny. And it it was funny in a you know, kind of a similar 90s sitcom way, but being a Jewish three Jewish women on this podcast, again, the Jewishness of it really stood out. Like it is so in your face. There's so much Yiddish, there are so many references. It feels the writer's room had actual like Jewish people in there, and like real New York Jews, which I'm sure a lot of like writers' rooms have, but it's not like a it's not a footnote. It is a huge part of the show and the character, and there's something like cozy about it. There's something that feels like, oh, I could have, I mean, if my grandmother were English speaking, we could have sat down and watched together and she would have gotten a kick out of it. And maybe that's kind of the hominess of it for me.

SPEAKER_03 8:21

Very cool. So talk to us about well, we'll get into the conversation, but remind us and our listeners the setup, like, or take us through, well, remind us quickly of the characters because we've referenced them briefly in our sort of what we remember, but remind us of the characters and then take us through, you know, either it's an episode you want to talk about or some of the dynamics you want to talk about, but like kind of set the context for us and our listeners, please.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah.

The Premise And Core Characters

SPEAKER_01 8:46

So the setup, which I have to say, if you've ever watched the nanny, you know that the theme song, which is this like amazing kind of like 50s, 60s callback, but it basically lays out the whole pilot. It's one of the few things theme songs I don't skip, even though I've seen it now, like, I don't know, a hundred times. But the basically she is working for her boyfriend in a bridal shop in Queens, and he dumps her and fires her on the same day, and dumps her for another woman who later is played by Pamela Anderson in an amazing like three-episode arc or something. So she has to go find another job. She's knocking on doors, trying to sell makeup, and she ends up at the Sheffield ref residence, which I believe is like Upper East Side. Side note, a friend of mine actually lived in that building, which is just a bunch of apartments, like regular apartments. It's still on the Upper East Side, but very regular. But it was amazing to see like that facade. So she knocks on the door and she like instantly develops a rapport with his three kids. He's a widower and he's just lost his nanny because she couldn't handle the kids. So she instantly develops a rapport with the three kids, and he ends up hiring her. And it is this very like odd couple. You know, he's highbrow British Broadway producer, and she's very like lowbrow queens, Jewish woman, you know, nothing in common. Instant sexual chemistry, obviously, and a very good will they won't they vibe that does get resolved later. And so that's kind of the main arc that brings them together. And then you have, I think my second favorite relationship on the show, besides her and the kids, is her relationship with Niles the butler. They are BFF, they are fast friends, they have this awesome dynamic, they get along super well. And the third person kind of in that dynamic is Cece Babcock, who is Maxwell Sheffield's business partner. And she and Niles hate each other, and she and Fran, I guess you could also say kind of like hate each other, because she is in love with Maxwell, and she can see that he finds Fran like attractive and flirts with her a lot, and you know, and they have a great dynamic, so she's very jealous. So it's a lot of moving parts. It's like Cece loves Max but doesn't love like his kids and doesn't love Niles or Fran. And then Fran and Niles like like each other, and Max and Fran like like each other, and she obviously loves the kids as their nanny. So it's a lot of like different moving parts, and then there's the side characters of

Humor, Parody, And Iconic Bits

SPEAKER_01 11:26

like her dumb Italian best friend, who's like a great Italian stereotype, I guess. And then her mom and her grandma, who are these amazing older Jewish women, and they're so the mom is so brassy and loud, and the grandma is like elderly and forgetful, but hilarious. So I think it's like the same dynamic that I loved in the Golden Girls. You see it in the nanny. And I always think the Golden Girls, I'm like, We have four Jew, four women in Florida, and there's no Jewish person. Like, are you kidding me? So maybe that's that is a very good point. And I think I think it was supposed to be like Sophia and Dorothy were supposed to be there. I think they were supposed to be Jewish at one point, and then they switched it to Italian, which works, but I think I get like my wish fulfillment in the nanny, where I'm like, all right, finally, like some Jewish, some good Jewish representation. That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

Hollywood producers, if you're listening, I think there's definitely demand, like there's a market for the Golden Girls reboot with some Jewish women included.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

So I mean, seriously, if you go to like, I mean, I don't want to start. Especially in Florida.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

Right. Yeah. Well no, I'm with you. I'm with you. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right, cool. Thank you for setting the stage. So, our whole project on Deep Thoughts is to like what some would say overthink, what we say is keep our eyes open. But what do you want to talk about? What do you want to unpack? What were the lessons that you were sort of taking when you were casually imbibing this as a kid? And then even in lockdown when you're re-watching it, like what are the things in there that you know that that it was giving you, whether you knew it or not?

SPEAKER_01 13:09

I mean, I think it's funny, as a kid, I feel like what stood out was she was basically like the fun nanny. She was kind of like that fun mom archetype of like, you know, she would give the girls tips on like makeup and clothes and all that, but also, you know, be aware of like, hey, you're 18 and you're trying to date a 25-year-old. Like, no, that's not gonna work. But she knew how to parent the kids in a way that Mr. Sheffield didn't. Like, she knew that you can't just say no to a 16-year-old girl. You have to let her kind of figure it out for herself in a safe way, but let the kids make mistakes. And I feel like there's a lot of good. I'm not a parent, but I feel like there are some good parenting lessons in the nanny of you can't just like keep your kids locked up. Like you have to let them like try things out for themselves and fail and learn the hard way, but in a way that's gonna give them like real world experience and confidence for the future and show that you respect them as individuals. But the comedy is so good. I mean, some of the jokes I definitely did not understand as a kid. There's one scene, I don't remember, again, I don't remember the setup, but the mom, Sylvia, says something like, Oh yeah, I'll just pretend to do this. And Fran says, I hope you fake it better with daddy.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

And she says, I was his first. What does he know?

SPEAKER_03 14:38

Okay. So takeaway, nanny, not for kids. Not actually for kids, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Yeah, it's like, I know I watched that as a kid. I'm sure I watched, you know, like there's sex jokes in every episode. And again, it's just it would have just been like faking. I don't know. Yeah. Right. Wow. Okay. So the humor I feel like is yeah, it works on so many levels. Yeah, there's this, I think one of my favorite episodes, they Fran and her mom get held up at the at there's a bank robbery at their bank, and they get held up. And it's this brilliant parody of Dog Day Afternoon with Al Pacino. And Dog Day Afternoon is like a very serious, intense movie. It holds up really well. I actually watched it recently, and this episode is basically like Dog Day Afternoon if the bank robber was just like a complete idiot and had no, like, he just wanted the money, but he's an idiot, and there's just a lot of great humor in that. And there's there's this really funny line where Max comes down to where the bank robbery is happening, and he's like freaking out, and and he's asking the police, like, have you heard anything? Have you heard gunshots, anything, any noise? And uh, the officer says, No, it's been completely quiet. And he says, Oh my god, she's dead. Because she's has this, as we said, she's this loud nasal voice that I think was when you hear her talk now, like the nasal is there, but it's definitely not as pronounced. It's almost like a female Steve Urkel, if you will. But yeah, it's just things like that. And there's this great scene in that episode where they're trying to figure out where to order food from, and the mom, Sylvia, says, Oh, I'm feeling something light, like

Will-They-Won’t-They Frustrations

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Fettuccini Alfredo. Something light. That's funny. So it's just it's a lot of the episodes, like if you wanted to just jump into a random one, you could, you would not really need to know much, except the will they won't they dynamic between Max and Fran. Really, I mean, I think my only complaint about the show is how long they drag out the relationship between the two of them. Like it takes them, I think, until the second to last season to actually get together, which isn't as long as some shows or about the same as some shows, but they have this moment, I think in season three, where he tells her he loves her as like they're about to die in a plane crash, and then he takes it back, and it becomes this running thing of like, Oh, you said you love me and you took it back. And when you binge a show, you know, it's like, oh my god, they talk about it all the time. So that's like why I think my only complaint is like they really drag out, like, are they gonna get together or not? Storyline. It it really feels like there's just like it's hitting you in the face like every episode.

SPEAKER_03 17:42

Yeah. That feels like a like an American sitcom thing, right? Because we don't like we learn from what was it, moonlighting that once they get together, the show kind of dies. So like I feel like that's a an American show kind of thing that happens because the producers don't want them to actually get together because then the tension is what makes people keep coming back. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I would like, if I may, I have two like brilliant finance minds on with me,

Class, Parenting, And Power

SPEAKER_03 18:11

right? Like two like finance writers on with me. And we're talking about this show at with like where class is like a kind of a central like component of the plot and the storyline, right? Is this class difference? I would really like to talk about that, like even what you said about the parenting tips or the parenting like wisdom that comes from Fran, which I think is a like a an interesting insight. I'm glad you brought that. And I would like to like ask what lessons are we getting as the consumers when that parenting wisdom comes from Fran, who is the the woman, the sort of working class woman, the Jewish woman, like versus the man who is owning class, who's British? Like, are there, do you think that there are sort of like lessons and stereotypes about who owns parenting wisdom or like who is capable? Is there anything about class do you think, like baked into that, or other pieces of Fran being sort of actually wiser, maybe, than Mr. Sheffield, despite the kind of like the meritocracy that would suggest that his money would bring wisdom, or he got his money through wisdom, or whatever. I don't know if that's enough of a question, but like I'd love to hear either one of you expound on sort of what kind of lessons or assumptions about society or subversions of assumptions about society that are baked into that dynamic.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

I mean, I think they definitely show him being out of touch with his kids, kind of that stereotypical, like rich person hires a nanny to raise his children. And I mean, obviously, I feel like I shouldn't have to say this, but obviously working parents deserve like need to have childcare arrangements and all that. But he there's definitely a lot of like he's a kind of a work working all the time and doesn't know what's going on. So there's definitely that. And then there's also just he doesn't, I mean, he comes from an age where once he hit, I don't know, a certain age, he was just sent off to boarding school and his parents weren't around to raise him. So it's almost like I think there's almost an implication of, well, I'm not doing that. I'm actually like living with my children, so I I am parenting them, but he doesn't really know what's going on. Like he doesn't really know what the kids are dealing with, and there's a little bit of like he does trust Fran to make the decisions, but there's also like an episode where Brighton, his son, wants to go to a mall in New Jersey with some kids, and she says no, because she's like, I'm not letting you drive to New Jersey with a 16-year-old that just got their license. Like, that's not safe. And he comes to the dad and she and he basically accuses Fran of overprotecting him, and he's like, Well, you know, like that's okay for the girls, but like I don't need that. And the dad agrees with him, which in 2026 does not look great. And he's like, Oh yeah, like Brian doesn't need that. And then she has the kid who's driving them, driving in quotation marks, come to the door, and she's basically like asking him all these questions and he can't answer them. And then it turns out, like, oh yeah, they just like paid this responsible looking kid to come and pretend that he's the one driving. And that would have fooled Max, but it wouldn't fool Fran because she's streetwise. So it's almost like book smarts versus street smarts, I think, is the dichotomy you see is like, yeah, he knows about culture and opera and you know, all these things, but she it's almost like she's young enough to remember what a kid would do to get out of something, and she She is just she's got like an innate sense of okay, the kid wants this thing. This is how they're gonna try to get me to say yes, and this is how I'm gonna figure out what it's actually going on.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

And it sounds to me like, just quickly, it sounds to me like the showrunners actually wanted us to see that Fran's way was better. Yes? Like that's I think so.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Yeah, yeah. I think they're trying to show you.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

Like we judge Mr. Sheffield for the decision that you just described. Like we are meant to judge him.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's almost yeah, he is smart in his lane, but the kids are like her lane.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Yeah, yeah. So the thing that struck me with the fact that he would just say no, and she wants to give them like scaffolded independence is the way that people with money tend to solve problems and think of money as the only solution to a problem. So, like, once once you have money and you're used to using money to solve problems, that is the that's the go-to solution. So, like, oh, okay, I can't do this. Well, if I throw money at it, I can do it. And so, oh, my kid is looking to do something that I disapprove of, I say no. And that is the only solution, that's the only tool in my toolbox. And so it's a similar kind of mindset, I think. And so it feels to me like there's a similar, and it's also, I think, a more masculine mindset as well, where it's just like, this is the way I deal with it. I say no, and you obey me, and that's it. Um, I have the money, and so

British Reserve Vs American Vigor

SPEAKER_02 23:40

you have to do what I say, and that's it. Whereas someone who has had to figure things out because they don't have money is going to be in a much better position to recognize, like, well, just because I'm told no doesn't mean I'm gonna obey, and also is going to recognize there's lots of other tools in the toolkit. If you don't have money, if you can't just say no to someone and all of that. So I think that's an aspect of it as well. There's it's there's that heavy-handedness of being a powerful person with money.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

So you're saying you think that's like a reflection that the showrunners are reflecting reality. That's how a man with that kind of money and privilege would actually act rather than some sort of like. I think I was trying to suggest that maybe there were some like assumptions about I mean, which is true, but but maybe some like actually pronouncements about the way things should be. But you're sort of saying this is a reflection of how things are.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Yeah. And not in a like, I mean, Mr. Sheffield, as I remember it, is uh he's a good sympathetic character. He's a sympathetic character who loves his children and is doing his best, but you know, he's still out of touch. He's out of touch, yeah. And he doesn't know what else to do other than throw his money around and say no. Right. Cool.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Yeah, and I feel like, and this is probably such a huge swing, but I feel like watching this in 2026, there's almost like a parallel to how we've watched like Prince Harry and Meghan Markle navigate the British monarchy. It's a very like, you do this, you do it this way, this is the way it's always been done. And then you get like an American coming in who's almost like the fly and the oyman who's like, well, why do we have to do this? Like, why do we, why are we doing things the same way we've been doing them for hundreds of years? And it almost feels that way, like when Fran comes in, like she's very much like, Why are we doing it this way? Like, why are you saying no? Why are you saying yes to these things? Like, let's live in reality. And he's living in his like British nobility bubble, and she's coming in with like, no, like we don't need to do that, like we could just do this. And it's fun to see the kids respond to, like, oh yeah, like that way, even if they're not always saying that way is better, it's almost like they're saying, like, well, yeah, this feels like the more modern way to do things or the more equitable way to do things.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

That's a really interesting since he is British. No, I think it's really interesting. Like, whether we're talking about Harry and Meghan or just British culture versus American culture, like when we did our episode about a fish called Wanda, we talked a lot about the ways that sort of we see the two cultures juxtaposed in different pop culture. And it's interesting to see it juxtaposed by British writers versus by American writers. Both seem to think that Americans are better at some things, but we're vulgar and we're crass. And like that actually seems to be reflected even by these, I assume American writers in The Nanny, where Fran is better at a lot of things, but she's brassy and whatever. So I think that that's a really interesting extra layer that you've brought in by making that connection. Thank you for doing that.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah. Yeah. And as someone who's been watching Downton Abbey for the first time recently, I feel like it's like they're always saying, Oh, Cora doesn't the American Cora, like, oh, she doesn't respect tradition. She doesn't understand tradition. And then

Grief, Family, And Saying Her Name

SPEAKER_01 27:00

you see, like, oh, this the way you've been doing things is not maybe like the most helpful. And I'm only on season three, so no spoilers. I haven't watched it at all. So watch three more seasons. Yeah, you're ahead of us.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

But like in Fish Called Wanda, which was written by John Cleese, who is British, there was this sense that like the Brits are like very proper and they're very smart, but they're dead inside. And Americans are brass and vulgar and maybe not so smart, some of them, but they're alive. And I like that I see that actually kind of reflected in this American show, the way that I know it, the way you've described it with Fran, she's very much alive. Yes, you know, like she's a presence, and it's brassy and annoying sometimes, but it's alive, it's vibrant.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

That even gets back to what your beef with the show is. Mr. Sheffield doesn't say only says he loves her when he thinks he's about to die, and then he takes it back. Yes. So, you know, and she is lively and vibrant and for all of the seasons and is happy to be loving and alive through all of the seasons, but he's right now, right now. Even when there's not like a even when there's not a plane crash coming, right? But she has to coax him out of being a little dead inside.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Yeah. I mean, you really see it in how he doesn't talk about his late wife. I think she's been dead for several years. I want to say like five years when the show starts or something. And he never talks about her. And there's this episode, I want to say season one or two, where Fran and the youngest daughter, Gracie, do a mother-daughter pageant, and then someone is like, You can't do this, that's not your mom. And she's like, My mom's dead. And she gets really upset, and Max is trying to comfort her, and he's like, This is why I didn't want you to do this pageant. And she says, I'm not upset because I'm thinking about mom. I'm upset because I don't remember her because I was so young when she died. And she says, And you never talk about her. And you kind of see that play out. Like Max doesn't talk about her because he thinks, well, if you talk about her, that makes you sad. And you see the kids kind of say, like, well, you never talk about her, and that makes us feel like we can't talk about her, and we can't talk about how much we miss her. And there's this beautiful episode in the last season, I think, where Fran, once Fran and Max are married, she wants to adopt the kids, like legally adopt them as her own, partially because the youngest two are still under 18. So if something were to happen to Max, like she wouldn't, you know, get custody. And the parents of the late wife come and they want to fight her on that. They don't want her to adopt them legally. They say, like, well, we think like you're just forgetting about Sarah entirely. And the kids say, No, it's actually Fran who will show us videos of her when we miss her. And they light a Yortsite candle for her. Oh. Which is like a beautiful. I'm like, oh, that's like one of the best traditions that the Jews have that we folks have. I feel like we're always like Fran even says she goes, if we didn't talk about the dead, what would we talk about? And Max is the opposite. He's like, no, like that's sad, and therefore we don't broach the subject at all. And it feels very real. Like the British kind of famously don't talk about their feelings. Yeah. Whether that's like a fair stereotype to in today's age or not, I don't know. But that's like a very feels like a very real thing. And Jews are always, I mean, it's like we only name each other, we only name our kids after like dead people. Yeah. So it's almost like, yeah, like we we love talking about the past and who came before us and all that. So it's this, it meshes really well when you have someone who's dealing with the passing of his late wife that he can't really deal with. Then the kids who are American do want to deal with it. That's really interesting. Was his late wife British or was his late wife American? She is American. Okay.

unknown 31:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

I want to circle back to something that we talked about like

Fashion: Garish Or Genius

SPEAKER_03 31:06

very briefly, almost tangentially, when you talked about how great she dresses, like how great Fran dresses. Let's dig into that a little bit. I think I want to talk about a couple of things in that. One is like, I feel like you're like the influence on you and your fashion, but I also really want to talk about in terms in within the layers of class and crassness. Like my recollection is that she dressed kind of like garish. Like I was meant to think of her as yes. Yes. Yes. And yet you're saying like fabulous. Can we like unpack that a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Because I think I'm a little, I'm like just a few years younger than Emily. And Emily, you're like just a few years younger than Tracy, not to bless everyone. I don't think we're I'll be 50 this year. I'm happy to say it out loud. And I'm 37. So I was, yeah, like a child watching this. And so I remember as a kid thinking, like, oh, she looks, yeah, like she looks trashy. Or I meant to think she looks trashy. And I feel like that's kind of the joke sometimes is like, oh, she looks like a hooker. But watching it as adult, I'm like, first of all, rockin' bod on Fran Dresher, like she wears a crop top a lot and like not an ounce of fat on her. That woman is a goddess. I mean, like, wow. Yeah. And I think there's some, like, you hear about it later. I think there there was like some, like, I don't know if it was like an eating disorder on her end, or more just like control from her husband of like how she looked and if she was like thin enough and stuff. So Oh, you mean the actress? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:35

Actually, had some sort of disordered eating.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

I think she did. I think her husband was like a little controlling when they were doing the show of like you have to look at the floor. Still sounds disordered. Yeah. But not because of her mental state, maybe. Yeah. And on the show, like she, you know, kind of does the traditional thing of like, I'm a woman and I eat whatever I want, and I still emer size zero. But very 90s thing where like you can have it all. It was a flex. It was a flex. Yeah. Yeah. But watching the show as an adult, I'm like, she looks amazing. Her outfits, I think, are great. It's all designer. I've tried to look it up a lot. Um, it's all designer. And it's funny. I think one of the episodes where she's responsible for like doing the costumes in one of Max's productions, the actor that plays like her cousin, who's helping her with the costumes, is actually like the real designer Todd Oldham, whose fashion she wore on the show like a lot, which is a fun throwback. But she does a lot. And I was reading about the fashion because I was like, oh, there's a unique style. She does a lot of like short skirt and turtleneck with tights. A lot of tights. And she does, or she does turtleneck with like mini dress a lot. So it's like there is some coverage, like when she's like being the nanny and like being around the kids, of like, okay, I'm wearing tights and I'm wearing a turtleneck, but it's still a short skirt. But then when you see her go out on a date, I've noticed even then there's a lot of like there's a short dress, but she's still wearing tights or something. So it's like, yeah, as a kid, I was like, oh yeah, she's supposed to, we're supposed to think she's dressed like a hooker. But I'm like, I would wear that to a party, like a short dress and tights, especially in these Indiana winters. But yeah, I realize now I do a lot of like a turtleneck with like a pencil skirt. I mean, my skirts are nowhere near a short because I have a real job. But I realized the other day I was getting dressed and I was like, I think this is like the nanny coated in my head. But I'm like, oh, this looks so good.

SPEAKER_03 34:44

So I think that's really interesting. Like that we're meant to think that she looks cheap. Yes. And yet it's all designer. Like the kind of tension in that is really interesting to me.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

And she doesn't pretend that she's buying not designer. Like, there's there are several episodes where she's like, Oh, I have no money. Oh, look at my new dolce purse. Like, it's not as bad as the Sex in the City kind of carry wardrobe, but she is always going to Lowman's and like buying things like 80% off. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And she's always trying to get a good deal, and because she is living on like six dollars an hour or whatever her pay was. But she's very into like what she's wearing and all that. So yeah, it's supposed to think I think it's like, oh, she's dressing like slutty, and I'm putting that quotation marks, but everything is like high-end at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

You know, what's interesting is it feels like she is pushing back against, and I don't know how old Fran Dressher was at the time. I'm guessing in her 30s.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

I'm guessing. The character is in her 30s.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Okay. But it feels like, and you'd mentioned like she's like high-end mafia wife. Yes, high-end mob wife.

Deals, Debt, And Stereotypes

SPEAKER_02 36:03

High-end mob wife. What it feels like is the way that she's dressing is eye-catching. And you're not supposed to do that once you're a real grown-up, once you're an adult. Like eye-catching is like at best into your mid-20s. And that's part of what I feel like is subversive about her character and her fashion choices, is that she is happy to be eye-catching, and she doesn't think that there is any, there's an age limit to eye-catching. And I think I feel like that's true of Fran Dresha herself, because you see the actress now, she still wears very eye-catching clothing. And then that I feel like has made a difference culturally. So our great-grandmother used to say when she would see an older woman wearing something that our great-grandmother deemed too young for her, would say, mutton parading as lamb.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Which I've heard that before. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Yeah. And like the line itself is like I can I had found it funny at points in my life, but I'm now like horrified that was something that was passed down for so many generations.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

I think that there's that's also everything about the way Fran dresses, I agree with you, Emily, but that it also is a continuation of some of the things we've already talked about: American versus British, right? Alive versus dead, working classes versus owning classy. Like the owning class are meant to be classy. Like that's why we use the word. And like classy is like modest and neutral. Yes, which Fran is neither. Yeah. Although there it's she's not immodest either, as you pointed out, Zina. She's not immodest. Let's come back to the fact that Fran had a rock and bod. And it turns out actually that rockin' bod was like at least in part the result of like not cool control of someone else. Like, let's talk.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

And I should say, like, I don't know, like the real I only saw in like one interview. She suffered like a really I think it was like her and her husband, they I think their house was broken into and there was a sexual assault on her. And I saw an interview with her about that, and she talks about after that her husband got worse in terms of like controlling. So it was like a really horrific event in her real life, and I think it happened while the show was still airing. And I wish I was old enough to remember, like, well, did we talk about how because there was so much fat shaming like in the 90s and the 2000s, and oh yeah, it was just normal, yeah. And I don't know how like in the people magazine, I don't know if we were like, oh my god, Fran Dressure looks great, or if there was any kind of like, or if it was just internal between the two of them. So I don't know the dynamic, but on the show, there is so much fat shaming on Fran's mom, and it really that's the only thing that kind of like bums me out when I re-watch it, because it's just like it just feels mean to for a daughter to say that to her mom. Oh yeah, yeah. So that's the only thing I'm like, that's a real person. Like, that's I don't know if the actress is wearing like any padding or like doesn't matter. Yeah, but if the actress actually if that was her body, it's even worse on a grander scale. Like, oh my god, you're actually making fun of like a real person's body right now.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

And lots of real people who look like that, who are watching the

Beyond Hanukkah: Real Rituals

SPEAKER_02 39:35

show, yeah, right? Well, and I remember Sylvia having like great style too, because that's where Fran got it from. Like, I remember like she dressed in the similar kind of like sequins and you know, similar kind of catching where it's like, yeah, lady, get it.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Sylvia dresses like real mob wife, and Fran is like I said, elevated. Yeah, Sylvia is I've been watching uh the Sopranos for the first time, and I feel like Sylvia dresses like 80s sopranos, like if the that kind of timeline of just like very of its time, and Fran is just like a little more like, okay, well, yeah, I'm gonna wear like a designer version of Leopard Print or something.

SPEAKER_03 40:14

There's another thing that we've talked at several points, like kind of tangentially, about the fact that this is like a Jewish show, that there's like Emily started by saying how much Yiddish there was in it. Yes. So I would love for the three of us to like unpack a little bit. Like you mentioned Zina, like probably there were actual New York Jews in the writer's room. Like it's it's real. So I want to unpack like how much of this representation was like awesome, I feel seen, and how much was like stereotypes. Sometimes those things are the same, but like how much like let's unpack the good, the bad, and the neutral from the Jewishness of the nanny.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Yeah, I mean, it feels very like the Yiddish again. Like, I'm I guess my family, we had a smattering of Yiddish phrase, like Masuga, like a very basic level. But I watched the nanny and I'm like, I don't know what a haza is, but I I guess I know now. Or like, if someone had put a gun to my head and said, What does Yenta mean? I don't know if I could have gotten like the full definition. So it's almost been like an education in some ways of like, oh, I'm learning like Yiddish phrases, like that's cool. And the I think that's where it feels very Jewish because I'm like, you can't fake this. You can't, yeah. And back then, like you couldn't have Googled, like, what are some key Jewish phrases I should put in here and how I like there's like a way to use them that feels authentic.

SPEAKER_03 41:39

Right, right. And especially if it's not just like Mazletov or Schmuck, which are the ones that have made it into the American lexicon. Yeah, cool. Okay. So that feels like in the good column.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Yeah, and there's this really funny line. I think it's in the pilot where Fran comes to the door and she's in the house and she goes, Oh, I love your tchotchkis. And Maxwell says, Excuse me? And he's like, My what now? And I legit, like my husband and I had a uh disagreement once because I said tchotchki, and he's like, That's a Yiddish word. And I was like, No, it's not. And he was like, Yes, it is, and he's not Jewish. And I was like, It's not a Yiddish word, it's a regular word. And we looked it up and I was like, It's Yiddish. I've I was just like, does everyone not know what a tchotchki?

SPEAKER_03 42:22

Yeah, she thought it was just the word for knick knack that everybody says, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:25

Yeah, so that I think is good and fun, and I think Yiddish is like a very it's like people don't realize like where it came from and how it's so important, but I think in so the stereotype is Franna's like always trying to find things on sale, and that is a stereotype. And I think in the show you see, like she doesn't come from money, like her parents are very like I would say maybe like lower middle class, like they live in Queens, they don't live in Manhattan. I feel like that's a huge distinction, even back in the 90s. Like her grandmother lives in a home, she's living on a fixed income, like all of that feels very real. So it makes sense that she's shopping like on discount and trying to get like if she's buying a designer dress, she's not going to like the Gucci store, she's going to Loman's and you know, fishing it out and like fighting like 200 women to get that same dress. So I don't it's tough to think how much of it is like hurting the cause versus like showing like a different side of like Jewish culture.

SPEAKER_03 43:29

Yeah, it's that's an interesting particular example, right? Where she's like

Ashkenormativity And Limits

SPEAKER_03 43:34

like living into the stereotype of always seeking a deal. And also we see that she's very working class. So it's like for different reasons than what we're usually given as the stereotype of Jews looking for a deal. It's not because she's a money hoarder, it's because she doesn't have money.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Yeah. And you see her on the show, she is like always, she's always in credit card debt, which I'm like, but yeah, like. Like she's always like basically spending her money on clothes and all that. So I almost like don't have a problem with her being frugal because it feels like, well, she's living on if not minimum wage, then like what was like a little above minimum wage, and she's not good with money, but she also doesn't have a lot of it, and she's not like I keep thinking so. Recently I I said to a friend, like, do you know what Jewish American princess means? And he said no. And I was like, Okay, so that's a phrase that like has died, thankfully. Maybe, yeah, maybe. And I was thinking, like, is she that stereotype? But she's not, it's like, I don't know how spoiled she is because she doesn't really come from a lot of money.

SPEAKER_03 44:43

Right, right. Yeah, it's so her frugality almost in this character almost is subversive because it's not about greed, it's actually about I don't know, necessity, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's an that it's an interesting tension on the stereotype. Yeah. Anything else going on with this sort of oh, sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:07

I'm curious about what other aspects of Jewish culture. Like one of my pet peeves is the fact that any time that like Jewish holidays are mentioned in anything in media, it's Hanukkah. And so just curious if there's you mentioned that they talk about lighting the art site lights for Mr. Sheffield's first wife, but uh, what other aspects of like the Jewish religion are mentioned?

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Yeah, there's this one episode, I think in one of the later seasons, but I think before she and Max are together, where the Fine family has invited the Sheffield family to their home for a holiday. And I wish I could remember the exact joke, but Max says something like, Is this the one where we do this and then eat? And Niall says, No, no, it's the one where we do this and then eat and then get and then stuff ourselves. And I it's I think it it's something like I don't think it's Yom Kippur. I think maybe it's like Sukkot or something, where I'm like, again, must have had real Jewish writers if they're talking about Sukkot or something. Like even talking about Yom Ki fuor feels a little like, oh, okay, like you know, we're getting into it. So yeah, but they still do the thing of she eats pork, and they're like, How do you eat pork if that's not kosher? And she's like, Oh no, it's okay, it's allowed. And it feels like a real, like uh, these are real like reform Jews where it's like you're

Feminism, Therapy, And Agency

SPEAKER_01 46:28

skirting the rules, you know, or well, you know, rules are a construct. But it just feels like these are like I could have grown up with these people in some way.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Yeah. Thank you for asking the question, Emily. I think that that the way you're describing it now, Zina, I'm feeling like it's a positive representation, like rat like where we like what I describe, where we feel sort of seen. Like if they're mentioning Sukkot, if she's sort of, you know, talking about the ways that she follows some of the rule, some of the sort of traditions and not others. Like that's very real. That's how many Jews live in America, you know, especially in Queens, right? Like she's not from, she's not Orthodox. So let's actually see a real that that sounds great, frankly. Like, I'm I'm delighted to hear your description of that. That's pretty cool. And the fact that, as Emily said, it's not just like, oh yeah, we're gonna celebrate Hanukkah because it's the Jewish Christmas, which you know, listeners, it ain't. That's not it. Yeah. So, you know, that there, there's like they're talking about other holidays like that actually are much more important in the liturgical calendar. Like, I love it. That sounds great.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

Yeah, yeah. There's always this internal like battle when when watching the nanny, because some of those stereotypes of how her mother like always wants her to get married, is like always pushing, like, go meet a doctor. Or there was one episode where she meets a guy and she's like, Well, I know you're not a lawyer. And he's like very blonde haired, blue-eyed. And he goes, How do you know I'm not a lawyer? And she goes, Well, not in New York, maybe in LA.

unknown 48:01

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

And that's the kind of humor I'm like, damn, like that's right on the line. Yeah, like would you do that joke now? Like, would that fly?

SPEAKER_03 48:13

It's also very, I just wouldn't name this, it's very Ashkenormative, like as if the only Jews are Ashkenazi Jews. Jews come in all colors and all, you know, like it's and always have. Most Americans are familiar with Ashkenazi Jews, which is you know what Emily and I are, what I'm assuming you are, Zina, but yes, we're not the only kind of Jews there are. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

No, and we've known like full Jews that are blonde-haired, like, you know, we've known red-haired Jews. Yeah. It's a religion.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

It's like Ashkenazi is an ethnicity, but Judaism is a religion. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

No, it's it's very like putting all Jews in one bubble. Yeah, that joke just like cracks me up, or where she makes she makes a joke about like wanting, she's like, Oh, I'll just meet the doctor the old-fashioned way. And he goes, How? And she goes, I'll faint and temple.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 49:09

Yeah. All right, we are running short on time. So I want to ask, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you wanted to make sure our listeners knew about the nanny?

SPEAKER_01 49:18

I think one thing that's kind of interesting is so

Recap And Patron Teaser

SPEAKER_01 49:21

in the show, her mom is always like pushing her to get married and like, you know, have kids. And she is always talking about that as well. And then there's one point where Max is like, I think you need to go see a therapist and talk about how like all you're obsessed about is like getting married, having kids. And she does do that. Like, she there's like, and it's a very long arc, it's not like a one episode, two episode arc, it's like almost like a season-long or even a couple seasons of like she's going to this therapist and talking about how all she can think about is like getting married and having kids. So it's interesting because there's a point where I'm like, oh my god, this is so anti-feminist. Like, all you care about is like having a house on Long Island with your like husband and two and 2.5 children. But she does try to work on it, and there's a point where she tells Max, like, okay, like if you don't want to do this, like I'm out, like, I gotta leave. So, in some ways, I feel like it's she's trying to get better about it. Cause you know, it's hard as a woman watching a show like that and being like, You have no career aspirations, like you sometimes she thinks, like, what am I supposed to do when these kids get older? What job? Like, it's almost like she doesn't like being a nanny, she likes being in that house with those kids and like them specifically. It's not like she's a licensed childcare provider in any way. She very much fell into this. So it is nice being like a little like, okay, there is a small part of you that's like, hmm, I am a woman with other things to do in my life besides just fulfill my mother's desire. Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_03 50:59

I think I have a feeling we're gonna get into that a little bit in the shit we forgot to say, which is available only for patrons. So head over to our Patreon if you want to hear more about the nanny. But first, let me actually see if I can reflect back some of the things that we talked about in our conversation today about the nanny, which is really we went to a lot of places actually. So I'm gonna start with the place where I think we ended accidentally, which is the ways in which the nanny actually kind of displays a juxtaposition between British culture and American culture, and the way that that plays out in this family dynamic with that also has layered on top of it like class and

Credits And Listener Support

SPEAKER_03 51:36

religion difference. So, because we've got Mr. Sheffield, who is British and presumably Church of England or some form of Christianity, versus Fran, who is American and Mr. Sheffield is also owning class versus Fran, who is working class, Jewish from Queens. She's so much more vibrant than he is, and in every way. She's louder, her clothing is louder, her, you know, she's just big personality, which we are meant to laugh at, but also we see the ways in which she is more alive than he is in the metaphorical sense, which is language I'm borrowing from uh Fish Called Wanda, actually, which John Cleese wrote as a Brit. So that's where I want to start because I think that was a place that I don't know if you expected us to go there when we sat down to start talking today.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

I mean, it's not unexpected because Max talks about it in several episodes. He's like, This house was dead until you came in here. He was like, You brought like love and light and life into this house. And it you it's very sweet. I feel like you kind of see how he's like, You brought me back from the dead, and you brought my kids back. Like you brought you gave them like a maternal influence, and it really feels like there's this beautiful episode where she one of the kids, the son has like a skateboarding accident, and she can't go see him in the hospital because she's not family, and she dresses up as a nun, classic psychiatropic to go like visit, like get to be like a you know, visiting a nun. Yeah. And he's like, Why are you here? and the kids say, like, she did this because she wanted to be here, and he's like, Oh, like you are family.

SPEAKER_03 53:21

Nice. We spoke about fashion and how fashionable Fran is, which there were many things layered into the fashion. There's the fact that like we were supposed to think she looked cheap, and yet it was all designer clothing. She also, we know that she's like spending a lot of money on clothes, but she's doesn't have a lot of money, so she's seeking out deals, which is kind of a Jewish stereotype, but kind of not because she's frugal, not because she's greedy, which would be the stereotype, but because she doesn't have a lot. And so she has to be a little bit more savvy and careful with her money. We also talked about how Jewish this show is, which in many ways is just great representation where we're hearing not just about Hanukkah, the Jewish Christmas, but we're also hearing about Yom Kippur and Sukhot. We're hearing about lighting Yarta candles, and we're hearing about the, you know, we're hearing all these Yiddish words that are used accurately, that are not just the sort of expected ones like Schmir or Schmuck or Mazeltav that are in the American lexicon. There were other Yiddish terms that you didn't even, you didn't know. Yeah. So that felt like positive and accurate representation. And I think we also heard about, we talked a bit about sort of accurate, I think, representation of sort of what happens to someone in that owning class position. So that we're not judging Mr. Sheffield for like being out of touch. I mean, we are a little bit, but we're it's in a sympathetic way because that is an accurate representation of someone who has that kind of positionality, ends up interacting with others and with his kids. And we see him genuinely trying. So those are the key highlights that I remember from our conversation. We are actually out of time. So I'm gonna say thank you so much, Zina, for being here. This was a great conversation. I was delighted to have you. Next week, Emily, you're bringing me your deep thoughts on what dreams may come. Awesome. Look forward to hearing from you then. And listeners, head over to our Patreon if you want to hear more, because we have more to say about the nanny. So we're gonna hit end and then hit begin again. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon. There's a link in the show notes. Or leave a positive review so others can find us. And of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompitech.com. Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head?