Daria: Deep Thoughts About 90s Feminism, "Misery Chick" Animation, and Who Gets the Privilege of Being Cynical

I don't have low self-esteem. I have low esteem for everyone else.

On this week's episode of Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Tracie returns to an icon of 90s era feminism, the animated MTV television show Daria. Just like the eponymous Daria Morgendorffer, the people around Tracie thought she was a "misery chick" who wore her feminism, sarcasm, and impatience with the idiocy of the rest of the world on her sleeve (although Emily objects to that characterization of her beloved sister).

Still, in her early 20s, Tracie found a lot to love about this pop culture take on how smart and disaffected young women navigate unreasonable expectations in a chaotic world. In addition, Daria was savvy enough to let smart jokes land without explaining them to the audience and self-aware enough to offer cultural commentary that doesn't let Daria herself off the hook for her role in perpetuating unjust systems. It also does a great job of holding a mirror up to reality when it comes to the psychology of high intelligence, since recognizing the brutal nature of the world can lead to poor mental health outcomes that look like low self-esteem. And even though Daria falls victim to some of the ideological purity testing of 90s feminism, it also offers some pretty great examples of feminism in action.

La la la la...Before the theme song is stuck in your head forever, throw on your headphones and listen to this episode!

Tags: deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, feminism, animation, mtv, women, pop culture, cultural commentary, psychology, mental health, comedy, comedy podcast, cult classic, millennial nostalgia, mike judge, 90s television, daria, daria morgendorffer, social justice

This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.

We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find. 

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Transcript

Opening And Why Daria Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:00

But in the end, Daria says to Jane, it is not your fault that guy died. And Jane says to Daria, people don't think. And you do. And this death is forcing them to think. And what they're saying to you is, How do I deal with the fact that I'm thinking? How do you manage thinking all the time until I get back into my vegetable state? Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the late 90s animated TV show Daria with my sister, Emily Guy Birken, and with you. Let's dive in. Okay, I'm pretty sure you remember this show. I don't think we watched it together because I was a senior in college when it came out, which means you were a freshman in college. But I know you've seen it. So tell me, what is in your head about Daria?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

So I remember that it's a spin-off from Beavis and Butthead, which I don't doesn't really compute like how Daria lives in the same universe as Beavis and Butthead. I like I just know that's a fact. And I remember the animation style. And there's one specific episode that I remember. Oh. And actually, it's just a detail of it, which is Daria is trying to write a short story, like a fiction story, and she's having trouble. And so the teacher, who is like clearly a space cadet, says, you know, sometimes having boundaries lets your creativity fly free, or something like that. And so said, Why don't you include a card game in the story? And so she ends up writing the story, and the card game is so not at all important to it, just to meet that. And for some reason that's stuck in my head. Huh. And in my head, Jeanine Garofflo is the voice of Daria. But I think even then I knew like it wasn't, but I just wanted it to be. Same energy, not Janine Garofflo, though. But that kind of like flat affect.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah. Yeah. The woman who voiced Daria is named Tracy Grandstaff. She spells Tracy wrong. Actually, I spell Tracy wrong, but she doesn't spell like I do. But yeah, Tracy Grandstaff was Daria's voice. So that's what I've got. Okay. So tell me, why are we talking about Daria today? Well, Daria was kind of like stuck in my head in part because our stepfather, Daria, is called Misery Chick. The Misery Chick, in fact, in the season finale of the first season. And our stepdad, I guess, was watching this show and was like, hey, that's Tracy. Daria's like Tracy. Like, so it's sort of stuck in my head.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

I mean, I earned it a little bit. No. I mean, I know I'm the one with the I'm a ray of fucking sunshine.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

I thought you that mug.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

You did.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Yeah, I mean, it was more than that. But, you know, Daria, like, she's very smart. She takes no guff. She like makes lots of like quippy, sarcastic comments. Like, our family has the joke about the what century is this? Because right around the same time

Memories, Voice Casting, And First Impressions

SPEAKER_01 3:45

as Daria was out when you graduated from college. I'm just, I know you know this story, but I'm telling our listeners, like, I was in the tiny one hotel in tiny Gambier, Ohio. And the poor young man who was working the front desk, he had to like, I had to hang up and call back so he could make the connection I wanted him to make. And like, full sneer, like, I think my lip was actually like up in like an Elvis sneer. I was like, what century is this? Which is a total, except Daria would have said, I thought this was the 20th century.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

21st at that point. It was right. It was 2000. I do want to make sure that it is entirely clear you had hung up by that point. The poor young man could not hear you. I'm not sure that I had actually. You had. I'm not sure that I had. You hung up and you were like, what century is this?

SPEAKER_01 4:36

I don't think I did, but because I have a memory of this poor boy being like, sorry, like on the other side of the line. Anyway, I still have the same outlook, but I'm slightly, I give slightly more grace now in my middle age, I think. Slightly more. Anyway, I've softened a bit. Anyway, that's why Dario was important to me. I'm not sure why it showed up now, except that I guess in my brain, I thought I was like, it's time for another animated piece, which I just did animated like a few episodes ago. So obviously, animated is really important to me, which is no surprise to regular listeners.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

It's kind of our thing.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

It's very much your thing. It's kind of important to me. So no surprise to our listeners. So anyway, that's why Daria, that's what's at stake for me, is that to to at least to some members of our family, I bore a striking resemblance to Daria. So that's why. So let me give you some postcards from the destination, and then I'll remind you a bit about the show. So I want to talk a bit about like this show was Daria herself was in many ways very self-aware and didn't like hide that from the viewers. And so there was a degree to which it really like did not talk down to the viewers. It just like told the smart joke and expected you to get it, which is kind of refreshing for an MTV show. I wonder, I was never a Beavis and Butthead viewer because I just found those two guys. I didn't find them funny. But I wonder if there was a degree to which they, as anti-heroes, were the butt of the joke. And there was still some of that because Daria was a recurring character on Beavis and Butthead. So I don't

Why Daria Now And Family Parallels

SPEAKER_01 6:20

know. I never watched it, but it makes me wonder because this show does not dumb down the jokes or explain the jokes for the viewer. Like they just expect you to get it, which is kind of cool. There's through some minor characters, Jody and Mac, who are both black, we actually get some reckoning or at least acknowledgement of the role that racism plays in people of color's lives, and a particular smart people of color who like Jodi and Daria are in many ways counterparts, but Jodi has a totally different way of dealing with the way she sees the world, the smart, same smart ways that she sees the world as Daria. And it's at least in part because of race. And I think that's a really interesting thing from the late 90s, early 2000s. Jodi actually gets her own spin-off. I think it was originally meant to be a show. It ended up being, I believe, a feature film, not for the like direct to TV, but a film length treatment rather than episodic. But I think that's also an interesting thing that Jody then gets her own spin-off. As a result of that kind of reckoning with race, we see the degree to which being cynical is actually a privilege position. Like it takes privilege in order to be cynical, which I think is something that we can wrestle with a bit, you and me. I also want to talk about sort of the assumption that this film reifies and really like leans on that being smart means being depressed, that those two things like are necessarily go together, or at least being perceived that way. And there's sort of reckoning with being smart and sort of not caring about the things that other kids care about, which includes like being popular and like how one looks, but it also includes romance, which is interesting and gets kind of poked a little bit, which feels real. Like that actually reads us really real. So I want to talk about that a bit. And then finally, there's a way in which Daria again is very self-aware and aware of like the psychology of what's going on in the background of everyone in her life, including herself, that and we also see from the very beginning that she is identified as having lowest self-esteem. So there's something like I'm not sure what where I'm going with that, but I want to hold it up to the light and look at it. So that's where we're going. So I'm not gonna give you plot summaries because it's a TV show. There were four seasons. I did not re-watch every single episode. I rewatched the whole first season in preparation, but I did not watch every single episode. So I'm gonna start, I'm gonna give you the main characters the way that we've done for other TV shows. So I'll start with Daria Morgendorfer. She is a sophomore at Lawndale High in the season, in the first season. So presumably she advances through grades in the other seasons. And in fact, Jody, the movie about Jody is sort of post-college. And I believe the final season of Daria was the kids like preparing to go off to school. So they've moved to a new town. She's new at Lawndale, and she is kind of alternative, we would have called it in the late 90s. You know, she's wearing like a skirt and combat boots and a green blazer that she always wears. The we get a lot from the credits screen with a song by one of the members of Riot Girls that's like sort of tuneless and like it was super cool in '97 with a the little chorus of la la la

What The Show Expects From Its Viewers

SPEAKER_01 10:05

la la, which is gonna haunt my dreams now from having like binged the whole first season over the past few days. Anyway, Daria is long-suffering. Her younger sister, Quinn, is the president of the fashion club. She is a freshman. She is very popular because she has super bouncy hair and equally bouncy boobs. She wears a little like baby doll t-shirt and jeans all the time. She does not want to be seen with her older sister and in fact disavows her and tries to convince her friends that Daria is like her cousin or something rather than her sister. We have both of their parents, Mr. and Mrs. Morgendorfer. They have first names, Jake and I can't remember mom's first name. It doesn't matter. She is a very high-achieving, maybe lawyer, maybe, I don't know, it's not clear, but the high achieving professional, like always wearing like skirt suits and high heels and things and having very important phone calls. And she knows she needs to be supportive of her daughters, but it's this sort of lip service, so that everything either of them says is responded to with, great, that's great. Until it's something she doesn't like, and then, you know, these weird things happen. Dad is like kind of clueless, and sometimes mom will be like, back me up, Jake. And he's like, um, yeah, with this like, you know, deer in the headlights look, like, what's your mother said? You know, that sort of thing. He also has a professional job. We're not sure what it is. Darry's best friend, Jane Lane, is very good at art. She has an asymmetrical haircut. She also wears skirts and tall, much taller boots that lace up. She has, yes, Emily, just you just marked her ear. She has earrings like all the way along her cartilage, up and down her ear, like rings, silver rings. And she is equally sort of deadpan. Well, no, she's equally cynical, slightly less deadpan. And they become friends immediately in the low self-esteem class, which I'll get to. There's also Kevin and Britney, who are the quarterback and a cheerleader, respectively. They are a couple. There's Jody and Mac, who I mentioned briefly, they're like the only two black people, apparently in all of Lawdale. They also apparently are a couple. Mac, Kevin, the quarterback, regularly calls Mac Mac Daddy every single time. Mac goes, don't call me that. Every time. He responds to the question and then says, and don't call me that. Then we have their teachers. There are a couple of other students who are sort of minor recurring characters, like the members of the fashion club, or there's a really like a geek who thinks he's like a I don't know what the word is. He thinks he can get in their pants. Like he's always giving these like terrible one-liners, but he's a Pasanova type. Yes. His name is Charles. Everyone calls him Upchuck. And then their teachers. We see a number of their teachers in a recurring way. The one that you remember probably is Mr. O'Neill, who can't remember the kids' names at all. He's the English teacher, but he is also the teacher for the self-esteem class. The history teacher is like very

Jodie, Race, And Cynicism As Privilege

SPEAKER_01 13:40

high strung and like very sarcastic and gets agitated really easily, so that like one eye kind of bulges because he's so like agitated. Their science teacher is a woman who is like coming out of a divorce and is always talking about the she's the ex-husband and sort of like projecting his behavior on all of the boys in the classroom. Their principal is Mrs. Lee, who is struggling with the fact that the high school needs more money and makes some questionable choices as a result of wanting more money. And there are probably others, but those are the major players. So this movie, excuse me, this TV show passes Beckdell flying colors every single episode. Like, not just like I have to look across the entire oove to find it. Like it passes Beckdel with no problem. Jane and Daria talk about stuff besides boys and men all the time, as do Daria and Quinn. Like it passes. I think one might argue it's even feminist. I think you could argue that. I mean, it is this particular brand of feminism from that late 90s time period. But at one point, Daria, they actually put in the mouth of Daria, it's not in the first season, but I read about it in future seasons. There's a moment where she says, People always call me a feminist when I say things that distinguish me from a doormat or from a prostitute. And so there's a degree to which, like, it's just assumed, which is another reason I suspect that our stepfather like associated her with me, right? But one of the things that I want to talk about that kind of possibly undercuts that is the way in which there is also assumed that Daria is miserable because of her intellect and maybe because of her feminism. In the final episode of the first season, they actually address this directly. The episode is called The Misery Chick. So in this episode, an alumni of the high school who was the star quarterback is coming back. It's only been a few years, like three or four years, and he took the team to state championships. And this guy's a jerk. Like we and Daria witness him proposition or insult every single person that he meets. And he's just terrible. He and Jane meet him, and like Daria says, excuse me. And he's like, You gotta be kidding, I'm not gonna talk to you. And she's like, I don't want to talk to you. And he's like, You just said excuse me. And she's like, Yeah, you're leaning on my locker. Anyway, he's a jerk to them. And he says, he's the one who says the phrase misery chick. You're one of those misery chicks who thinks about how terrible the world is just to distract everyone because from the fact that you're a loser, something like that. As he's walking away, Jane says something like she wishes he would die. And it's just like a sarcastic joke. But then almost immediately the goalpost, which they were going to name after him, falls on him and he dies.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

I mean, it's supposed to be funny. And then all of a sudden, all of her classmates and even one of her teachers are like coming to Daria for advice on how to like handle being miserable and feeling so rotten because she thinks about dark things all the time, because she's always miserable. And this is like hard for Daria because at the end, she and Jane actually have a conversation. Jane had been avoiding her, and then they actually do meet and talk. And Jane was feeling awful about the fact that she wished for this man's death and then he died. And she didn't think that Daria would get it because Daria was like making jokes about it and just being sort of like, whatever, he was a jerk. And Daria's like, no, I'm I'm sorry he died, but that doesn't make him a good person. He was still a terrible person. And then Daria says, you know, people keep coming to me because you're miserable, Daria, but I'm not miserable. I'm just, this is how I see the world, or whatever. I don't remember the exact the way she talks about it, it doesn't really matter. But in the end, Daria says to Jane, it is not your fault that guy died. And Jane says to Daria, people don't think. And you do. And this death is forcing them to think. And what they're saying to you is, How do I deal with the fact that I'm thinking? How do you manage thinking all the time until I get back into my vegetable

The “Misery Chick” And Thinking’s Burden

SPEAKER_01 18:20

state? So the show addressed directly this perception that Daria's intellect makes her miserable, which is interesting. And I appreciate it. Like because we hear from Daria's own mouth, I'm not miserable. But I'm not sure the show actually shows us that she's not miserable, right? Like she in the first episode in the in the pilot, she ends up in this low self-esteem class. And while the class itself is ridiculous, and she and Jane end up getting out of it because Jane has taken it six times and knows all of the right answers to the test. The implication is not that they don't have low self-esteem. Quite the opposite. Like the test was on to something, it's just that the school doesn't know what to do about it in actuality.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

And you said this before we started recording. The reason why she ends up in that class is because when she started at the school, she had to take a psychographic.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

A psychographic test that put her in that class. That put her in this class that her sister didn't end up in. And interestingly, when her parents hear, like, this actually was very funny. Her dad's like, what's wrong with you, Daria? And the mom's like, this isn't gonna mean I'm gonna have to go to like parent teacher conferences or anything, is it? So that actually was very funny. I laughed out loud at when the dad, he actually like smacks the table, like low self-esteem. What's wrong with you? We always tell you you're wonderful. Oh my goodness. So I guess what I'm trying to tease at is like the show, well, like the showrunners are like, yeah, people think this, and like they're wrong, but they're also right.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

I do want to like I wanna stick with this for a minute because I feel like that's not necessarily like I I feel like what they're doing is they're reflecting a reality in some ways. Yes, because it's not that people of high intelligence like Daria and Jane have low self-esteem in the way that like we think of it as as like low self-worth, it's that they have a clearer understanding of reality, which leads to a better understanding of their place in the world. And so, do you recall there's the moment in the greater Heicheker's Guide to the Galaxy like trilogy that became a five-book series, being increasingly poorly named. Yeah. Yes. And I don't remember which book it's in, but there's a point where they put Zaphod Bebelbrocks into a machine that shows you just how unimportant you are. Yeah, it shows you your place in the universe, but his has been his has been like and he was placed, they created an alternate universe for him.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Right. So he's the only one who ever comes out not insane. Yes. Yes, I do recall.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

So I'm thinking of that because, and like Zaphod Beal Brocks, I have for years thought that like he is a smarter and more charismatic version of Trump with more arms and heads. But he went into it supremely confident and came out of it feeling like I'm the most important person in the entire universe. Because that's what the box told him. Because that's what the box told him.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

And it feels It feels like, and I know this is something that I have seen over and over and over again. Like, very intelligent people whom I love are like burdened with reality. And it's not that they have low self-esteem, it's that they're they're burdened with reality. And then like dipshits have like egos the size of Mount Rushmore. Because they don't, they're not smart enough to recognize how little they are.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah, I think that may be right. I mean, at one point, Daria says, this is in a later season. I I watched it in a clip. Daria says to Jody, actually, because Jody's like, you're so negative all the time and it doesn't serve you. And Daria says, I'm too smart and too sensitive to live in this world with the sister I have and not be this way. It's how I cope. So I think you're exactly right. There's another scene where she goes to a therapist and she basically says exactly what's wrong with each of her family members, including herself. She says to the therapist, I actively work to make people dislike me so that when they do, I'm not disappointed. So, yes, I think you are probably right. Like we see her over and over again like not like a situation and figure out a way to like manipulate that situation, herself out of it, or the chain to change things somehow. And she also is very aware of like relational dynamics. In an early episode, she and her sister both end up at this party at a classmate's house whose parents are out of town. And at the end of the night, they like they lose their ride, like whatever. And Quinn says, Should we call mom and dad? And Daria says, and give them that much power? No way, we're walking. So there's like this constant assessment of the power dynamics, the whatever, like, so I think you you are probably right. And to your point about sort of reflecting reality, I want to sort of stay with kind of the perceptions of how this disaffected, smart teenage girl is, and like the way that this reflects it. So in that episode where they go to the party, these two boys hit on them, hit on Daria and Jane. And Daria gives them, they're like, Where you girls been all our lives? And Daria says, We've been standing in this room, we were born in this room, and we've been waiting, wondering if we would die in this room alone. And then you came along.

Low Self-Esteem Class And Reality Vs Worth

SPEAKER_01 24:40

And one of the guys goes, Hey, she likes you. And so there's this, like, you know, to fit the stereotype. Like, she is not interested in romance, or at least not with like certainly not with that dude, right? Jane ends up going into the makeout room, aka the laundry room, with one of them. Jane lies about it to Daria because she's a little bit ashamed of it. So it's like I watched that one. I was like, I wonder if Daria is meant to be like asexual. We mostly weren't using that term in the broadest cultural sense back in the late 90s, but certainly asexuality existed, or if she just has high standards, or like Jane certainly isn't, because she's like, I mean, he's dumb, but he's cute. And so she like goes into the laundry room with him. But in later episodes, we see Daria has a big crush on Jane's older brother, Trent, who is like still living at home and trying to make his band work, which is called Mystic Spiral. But Daria says that sounds like a doors cover band that plays at brew pubs. To which Trent's like, oh, maybe you're right. What if we spelled it with two whys? We spell mystic with two whys. So, but Zarya has a big crush on him, which I think is also like reflecting of reality, right? Like she eschews all the things that she's supposed to want, but she's still a teenage girl. And so, like having her have this crush on Trent, which is unclear if it's required or not. Like, at least in the first season, nothing actually happens between them. But like, there are moments where, like, so in an episode, they end up going to Alternapalooza together. Jane and Zarya and Trent and Trent's bandmate Jesse. They all go to Alternapalooza, and like Daria, like Trent and Jesse will say something, and Zarya will think some snide remark. And we hear it, but she's not saying it. Her lips stays still. Eventually, Jane's like, say it, Zarya. Say it. Whatever you're thinking, say it. Because they're gonna go on like this for hours. And then they drive past some like big billboard that said, if you lived here, you'd be home by now. And Zarya like forgets she's trying to be quiet and whatever, demure, and she goes, and be bored out of your mind. And then she immediately like covers her mouth. But the two guys think it's funny. So, like watching Daria kind of do those things that are like normal teenage girl things and like have it like the way she's thinking about herself. And I find that to your point about being like a reflection of reality, like I actually really appreciated that. Like, I think that probably, I mean, I was a little bit older when this, you know, I like I said, I was a senior in college when this first came out. So, but like if I had been 15 when I first watched Aria, I think I would have been like really validated. Sure. By that in particular, that sort of like, she acts like she doesn't care about it, but she's still, you know, she still has a crush on Trent or whatever. So that was something that, like, just the way you said, like, reflection of reality with the intellect and the the weight of the world just reminded me of that. So staying on that, actually, and the the weight of the world, let's talk about Jodi, the black counterpart, and sort of what she says to Daria and kind of where that lands. There's an episode, I think the same one, where Daria says, I'm too smart and too sensitive for this world and a sister like mine. In that same scene, Daria is sort of giving Jodi a hard time about being like seeing the world as it is and still being like accommodating in some way. Jodi says to her, You don't something like you don't know what it's like, right? Like, you don't know what it's like for me. Like at home, I can just be Jodi and I can say what I think and I can just be me. But at Lawndale, I have to be the queen of the Negroes, and I have to be a role model for all of the other black students at Lawndale High. Oops, where did they all go? And so there's this

Crushes, Asexuality Questions, And Trent

SPEAKER_01 29:30

very self-aware moment where effectively Jody says, you know, it's a privilege that you can be cynical, you can actually out loud be cynical the way that you are. Jodi says to her, Sometimes I wish I could, I could be more like you, but I can't. Daria says, Sometimes I wish I could be more like you. And Jodi makes a like a satisfied face. And Daria says, I didn't say all the time.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

So the idea of cynicism as privilege is something I've been thinking about a lot, especially politically over the past 10 years. Just, you know, so often we'll have people say, like, both parties are exactly the same. I'm sitting it out. And that kind of cynicism only comes from people who are pretty darn sure they're not going to be rounded up because of the color of their skin. Mm-hmm. Are pretty sure that they're not going to lose, you know, affirming healthcare because of their gender identity. I went to the uh women's march in Madison in 2017. And as we were leaving, we ran into this guy, give you three guesses as to what race he was, who as we're leaving said, you know, Obama used their own strikes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, to us as we're leaving the women's march in January 2017. And it was just like, what what do you think you're doing right now, dude? Like, you weren't here marching with us. Like, if you were marching with us and also said that, like, I'll give you a teensy bit more grace. You're just sitting on a bench yelling at women who are worried about what's going to be coming. And that that kind of cynicism reminds me of when I was in high school and I had to do a group project and I did all the writing for something for the first like third of it. One of my group mates came in and just sat with a red pen on the thing that I had written. And it was just like you're not helping in any way. And it's, it's, you're so privileged to be able to sit there and say, I point out this is wrong and this is wrong and that's wrong and that's wrong. Okay, what solutions do you have? Like, you have the privilege of cynicism because nothing bad is gonna happen to you.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

So that message comes across from Jody to Daria on multiple occasions, like not just the one I just named, where she says, I wish sometimes I wish it could be more like you. In the episode with the football player who dies, Jody's on the student council. And so she's giving a speech. They're renaming a new goalpost after this dude before he dies. And she says, she comes over and she says, Daria, I'm having a hard time with Ice with my speech. I can I read it to you. And she's like, she starts out and she's like, Welcome, fellow students and faculty and honored alumni. Do you have any ideas? Like nothing. She's written nothing except for the welcome. And Daria like offers something that is so sarcastic, right? And Jody says to her, I have to do this. I'm on student counsel and it's an important job with a lot of responsibilities. And now I just feel bad about it. So she's like, not only did Daria not help her, she also made her feel bad about the fact that she has to do it. And she's she sort of calls it out. And poor Mac then comes up and says, Hey. Jodi's like, stop talking to me, or like, shut up. It's like, you know, she like takes it out on poor Mac. Don't call him Mac Daddy. Anyway. So I think you're like that that feeling that you're naming this show exhibits through the person of Jody at Daria. I mean, and Daria is our hero. Like, we completely sympathize with her, but the show like shows us that it's not all quippy quips and light. It's also, you know, it has this effect on specifically on Jodi. So I think that's a really I was like surprised, like pleasantly surprised by that level of nuance.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

I appreciate it also in that it's late. I mean, I like I think this is more of a millennial show than a Gen X show. Yeah. But like part of what Gen Xers like about themselves is that we are unsurprised and disaffected. Like, and I kind of get that. I kind of get the like, you know, you can't surprise us. Like, we we've been through it all, we can do. And like we're so worldly. We were like that. Yeah, we're so worldly. And we were like that as like teenagers and young adults, and we are like that as 40s and 50s somethings. And there, there's like, don't trust the man, don't trust like, you know, uh major institutions, all of that. But there's this negative side to this, which is that

Party Politics: Power, Romance, And Snark

SPEAKER_00 34:40

like, well, then you never trust anyone, and nothing is ever serious, and you can never be sincere about anything. Sincerity is like poison. It's like social suicide to be sincere. And that is a very negative thing. And so while this now, I know it's Mike Judge, I'm sure, who is Gen X.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

I mean, it's a spin-off of his show, but he does not appear to have been involved. I actually looked for his name in the credits. He does not appear to have been involved in the actual day-to-day work. It has a different look than like King of the Hill, MB Vist and Budhead. So I'm not sure how involved he was from the beginning. I actually suspect maybe this is the Gen X cynic in me that MTV was like, we need more female viewers. Let's spin off a TV show about one of the female characters from Vist and Butthead. And that's how it came to be.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Well, even so, because of when it came out, it would have been Gen X, presumably. Making it. Making it. Agreed. And so good on them for being self-aware enough to be able to put embody what we like best about ourselves in Daria while also holding her accountable for it.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

I mean to a certain extent. To a certain extent.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Yeah. Yeah, agreed. Agreed. There was something I thought of while you were talking that I wanted to name. Oh, yes. So to your point about sort of Gen X and like the sincerity and all, there's also a degree to which we are we were raised up on kind of ideological purity and sort of like black and white thinking. Like the whole, like what we talked about in in reality bites, don't be a sellout. In fact, one of the characters, Jesse, Trent's bandmate, says, This guy's no sellout. And Jane says, Well, that would require someone to want to buy what you're selling.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

And that's one way to stay pure.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

And Jane looks at Daria and it's like, well, somebody had to say it, said something because Daria was keeping her mouth shut. Anyway, this show kind of a little bit grapples with that. There's an episode about plastic surgery where Quinn's, some of Quinn's friends, end up getting plastic surgery. Quinn is the younger sister who is already very attractive. And Quinn decides that she wants to get plastic surgery because she was cuter than these girls, but now they've had this surgery, so they're cuter than she is. So she needs to go get surgery. But then of course they're gonna go get surgery and it's just gonna be a vicious whatever that thing is called. It's a butter battle book. So Quinn says, too, Doria. And it it ends up going badly, like the girl who got her nose done, it like caves in or something. So we have that very clear lampooning of the need to like change our appearance. Like the doctor like shows Quinn like what she could look like if she got cheekbones and lips and like all the things, and then turns the camera on Daria and shows Daria what she could look like and turns her into Quinn. So there's very clear lampooning. At the same time, mom, we get sort of a couple of scenes of mom, like I mentioned earlier, where she's like, we shouldn't be judged by our parances, maybe, but we are, and that's just the reality. And so she's like almost talking herself into it. And there's another episode, not about plastic surgery. They end up on a college campus. It's the alma mater of mom and dad. And this college student, a boy, comes up to mom and is like, Can I have your underwear? And she's like, What? And she's like really offended, but also a little bit flattered. But then he says, Our frat house moved off campus. And so when we fly underwear on the flagpole, it can't be seen from the quad. But I've been watching you and I think yours is big enough that it would be seen from the quad. So we get this like kind of gross. Not like kind of totally gross. The whole thing is gross. What I'm saying is kind of gross is the takedown of mom. Like what the show wants us to think about Mrs. Morgendorfer as a result of this is what feels kind of gross. Gotcha. The college student is all the way gross. But what the show runners, I think, sort of want the viewer to feel about Mrs. Morgendorfer feels kind of gross. Like sh there's this, she says they go up to Jake's old room and he's like trying so hard to be liked by these

Alternapalooza And Saying The Quiet Part

SPEAKER_01 39:20

college students who are like, whatever, old man. And she's like, Remember when you and your friends used to lean out that window and scream horrible things at me? And then she's like, Quinn is on this campus. Like she suddenly realizes that her daughter is gonna be the subject of this. And there's this sort of critique that, like, what we see is that she knows she shouldn't like it, but she kind of sorta did, which is different than we accept different things now than we did 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Like, which is true. I mean, that happens. Like, things that I took for granted as just kind of the way things were, because I was a fish and it was water. If they happened to my daughter, I'd be like, oh, hell no. But there was a there was a degree to which like the sh I feel like the show was like judging her. Judged her for it. Yeah. Which undercut some of the feminism of Daria herself, but actually feels like that 90s feminism.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

Where we judged less enlightened women.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Yeah, ideological purity.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

And the ideological purity. It's all related. It's all related.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Yeah. Well, I've had this realization recently that that ideological purity that we require of ourselves is the same kind of like self-policing that like high control religion forces on people.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

And that realization came about because of I saw an interview with one of the Dugger kids who has not exactly escaped, but is no longer exactly under them. But growing up, she was told that music with drums in it was like of the devil. And so she accidentally heard music that had drums in it, and she's like, oh my God, I'm going to hell, like as a kid, and was like having heart palpitations, which like broke my heart. And she was talking about this, and that's why she's no longer with that specific branch of the church. And it occurred to me that like when I am like, I have to get something, and it's the convenience, there's nothing as convenient as Amazon. And I feel like, oh God, I'm not a good liberal. I'm not a good leftist. And I realize like I'm having the same heart palpitations where it's like, yeah, I don't want my money to go to Bezos, but I'm one person. And like, I'm not going to hell. Now, and this is obviously different because like she didn't choose to listen to that music or anything like that. So it came upon her. I am making this choice, but it's a it's a choice that I'm making in this sea of other choices that are like are with or without my agency. And so like the level of ideological purity that we require of ourselves, like, at least for me, makes me feel like I'm in a smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller box. Because like I gotta do this the exact right way, or else I'm not ideologically pure. And that just might be my anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Maybe. But I would label it actually as perfectionism here, as like I think it's ideological purity that judges others the way that this TV show, I think, judges Mrs. Morgendorfer for uh enjoying feeling desired, even though she's a high-powered woman. I think it is perfectionism in ourselves that sort of we've been trained that we will be worthy, loved, successful, safe. I mean, for the Duggar kid, safe if we are perfect, and only perfect will do. And it this is a semantic distinction that I'm making, but I think there is it's it's slightly different. Like, because we're not actually asking Mrs. Morgendorfer to be perfect exactly, though she maybe is asking herself to be perfect.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

So one thing to be f impossibly fair, although I think this is way too nuanced for an MTV

Jodie’s Constraint And Student Council Weight

SPEAKER_00 43:30

cartoon, is like maybe it's asking Mrs. Morgendorfer to be more introspective. It's not that it's a problem that she is enjoying being desired. It's not that it's a problem that she like realizing how gross it is. It's that she doesn't spend time thinking about it. She just wants to get back to her vegetative state. Maybe. But that is very nuanced. That is not something that, like, even for a show that is smart enough to just let The audience get the joke, the audience isn't gonna get that. They're just gonna judge her.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Well, the thing is, Mrs. Morgendorfer, yes, she we judge her, we are expected to judge her. The show sets it up for us to judge her repeatedly for not being introspective. You're not wrong about that. You know, even in the way that, like, when she hears that her oldest has low self-esteem, her first reaction is, this doesn't mean I'm gonna need to have any parent-teacher conferences, does it? So, yes. I feel like it's a slightly different category when we're talking about sexuality. And part of that is that it was the mom. And this is from the teenager's point of view, right? Like there's one scene where Quinn and mom go to see an organization expert, and the organization expert, who's a woman, asks them to name their top priorities. And Mrs. Morgan Dorfer lists off a bunch, like four or five, that are about like number one is spending more time with family, and then it's about work and it's about whatever. And then she adds, like, number five is like put more spice back in our marriage. And then Quinn lists, and Quinn goes, ew, uh, and then she crosses that off and says a different thing for number five. And then Quinn lists a bunch of that are like be more popular, be like very shallow things, and Mrs. Morgendorfer like judges her for it. The organization expert says, No, no, it's important to like be clear about what really matters, like no judgment, just what really matters. And Mrs. Morgendorfer turns back to her list and says, number one, put spice back into my marriage. So there's like this through line about sex and sexuality, which she's not judged for that, I don't think. Quinn judges her, but we are not as a viewer. Quinn's 15.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Her daughter, yeah. Yeah, and her daughter and parents getting it off is gross, but right.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

And so I don't know, it's like it's complicated. It's complicated. I don't think we are meant to judge her for that moment. There's another moment when the kids go, both girls go to the Alternapalooza festival, and the they ask the parents what are they gonna do? And they say, Oh, we're gonna pay bills. We're gonna maybe do I don't remember what the other thing is that they could say, like some other really boring thing. And the girls are like, Okay, well, don't hurt yourself. And then the parents like watch to make sure they're really gone, and then they're chasing each other around the house, you know, like, hey, foxy lady, dad says. So, like the idea that they have a sexual relationship is treated a little bit as a joke, but not to judge them, like a, you know. But the thing about like her and her like wanting to still feel desirable to this college student because she's in her alma mater, that gets messier. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, except that like the things that we've already talked about. But I do think that like as a society, like women's sexuality, especially midlife women, is like a thing that we still are kind of backward about. Like it's not a thing that we feel comfortable thinking and talking about. So, and this show has a give and take. It it gives with one hand, but it takes with another, on that score in particular. Yeah, yeah. Not that I think that like she was right to sort of want this, but also like she was human. I guess that's where I'm getting at. And I don't think we got that from the showrunners about her at that moment. Yeah. So let me see if I can reflect back some of the things that I had to say about this that you and I had to say about this TV show, this MTV TV show. So I think I guess maybe my biggest takeaway is the way that you named, which I think is exactly right, that one of the things that's smart about this show is not just that Daria is smart, but that the show reflects reality. And so the idea that Daria is a misery chick is less about the idea that or the hypothesis that being smart equals being sad, and maybe more about the fact that being smart makes one like more aware of all of the kind of weight of the world, which makes one sad or can. And so I

Gen X Disaffection And The Cost Of Sincerity

SPEAKER_01 48:20

think that idea of this show as a reflection of things in some degree as they are, is actually its strength. I think that, you know, the way in which Daria is self-consciously uninterested in the things that teenage girls are supposed to be interested in. I'm putting quotes around supposed, and yet has this crush on Trent and ends up like trying to be, at least to a certain degree, more like other teenage girls. Like she put she Jane says, You have lipstick on when they're getting picked up to go to the alternatalooza. And she says, Stop, I just ate a lollipop. Jane's like, No, you didn't. I think that is a reflection of reality, right? Like teen girls who were smart and disaffected still got crushes and then ended up like trying to figure out how they could be more attractive to their crush, just like Daria did with Trent. Or they were like Jane, where they like, you know, went into the laundry room anyway because they wanted to, but then like he's dumb, but he's cute. Tried to hide it. And that makes for the best dogs. It's not terrible, boyfriend. Anyway. So that was one thing that we talked about, and sort of the difference between that kind of sense of one's place in the world versus low self-esteem. Allah Zephad Bible Brocks from Hitchhiker's Guide, Douglas Adams, and the Hitchhiker's Guide series, which is not a trilogy. Another thing we talked about is the way that it takes a certain amount of privilege to be cynical, or at least to be vocally cynical. In Dario, I think it was specifically to be vocally cynical. You brought in examples where it's like actually in the real world as well, because sure both parties make mistakes, but only one is actually gonna actively work to hurt my well-being.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Only one of them is blackbagging people or shooting them in the face. I mean, right.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

So in Daria, we saw that through the person of Jody, who's Daria's black counterpart. So she is just as smart and just as capable of caustic quips, but she does not come at things with caustic quips, in part because as she tells Daria, she represents her race in this most in this all-white crowd. And that's a weight of responsibility that requires her to not be sort of caustic quips. So that's a refreshingly sort of thoughtful take from this late 90s, early 2000s. She still was a minor character, so I don't I don't want to like overstate the case. But I was impressed with that. Let me see. I think what else did what what else did we talk about? What did I forget? We talked a little bit about ideological purity versus perfectionism and the sort of feminism of this TV show, which is arguable, but not, I don't think, I don't think misplaced, but the ways in which sort of actually 90s feminism was all about ideological purity and judging even women who were less enlightened, we thought, than us. And that is reflected in this TV show. In some of the sort of in the ways that that Mrs. Morgendorfer is treated about, like especially in the one episode that I named, but also just in general, kind of the way that like some of the more stereotypical teenage characters are treated, notably the cheerleader. So I think that's all I have to say about Daria. Tell me, um, what are you bringing me next week?

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Next week, I am bringing you my deep thoughts on Say Anything. I'm apparently on a um John Sak tear right now. So I don't think I've seen that. So I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts. I didn't see it till college, so yeah, it's gonna be interesting. Cool. See you then. See you then.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon. There's a link in the show notes, or leave a positive review so others can find us. And of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompitech.com. Find full

Ideological Purity, Feminism, And Judgment

SPEAKER_01 53:10

music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head?