Roxanne: Deep Thoughts About Big Noses, Smart Women, and the Delicious Comedy of 20 Perfectly Worded Insults

Earn more sessions by sleeving!

This week on Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Emily enjoys analyzing film tropes in the 1987 Steve Martin comedy Roxanne, based on the Edmond Rostand play Cyrano de Bergerac. As a romance loving child, Emily adored the updated storytelling of the remarkable man with a big nose who falls in love with a beautiful woman and helps his handsome but shy lieutenant woo her in his stead.

While much of the comedy from the original French play translates remarkably well into 1980s era Washington state, writer and star Steve Martin wanted the humorous tale to be a true comedy rather than the tragic tale of missed opportunities and self-loathing (and lack of agency for women) that Rostand originally wrote. Which is why Roxanne and CD get to have their (slightly awkward) kiss and happily ever after at the end, and Chris gets to live on in Tahoe with Sandy the cocktail waitress instead of dying nobly.

Throw on your headphones, pour yourself a glass of wine to snork, and take a listen!

Mentioned in this episode:

https://seeingthingssecondhand.com/2022/04/10/roxanne-1987/

Tags

deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, comedy, women, pop culture, storytelling, romance, analyzing, film tropes, movie reviews, film, cultural commentary, feminism, film analysis, gen x childhood, 80s and 90s movies, romcom, nostalgia, steve martin, daryl hannah, cyrano de bergerac

This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Why Roxanne
• 2:05 Childhood Memories And First Impressions
• 3:45 What’s At Stake: Romance And Words
• 6:56 Plot Walkthrough: Nelson, Washington
• 13:53 Letters, Wires, And Farce
• 20:03 The Reveal And Fallout
• 24:03 Cyrano’s Tragedy Vs. Roxanne’s Agency
• 29:28 Compersion, Desire, And Honesty
• 34:43 Masculinity Without Toxicity
• 41:28 Who Fits Whom: Matching Minds
• 46:43 Feeling Feminine Beyond Looks

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:24

What I appreciate about Steve Martin's, because he wrote this, he wanted to do an update and he wanted it to have a happy ending of Syrano de Vergiac is he gave Cyrino the happy ending. And he gave Roxanne a lot more agency. Yeah. So and even the like the compersion aspect of it, he wanted her to be happy, but he was not self-sacrificing like Serena was. Even in the the moment of him, like at every point, he was doing these things thinking of her, and then kind of belatedly realizing, like, ah, crap.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12

Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.

SPEAKER_03: 1:33

I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit. Because pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1987 film Roxanne with my sister, Tracy Guy Decker. And with you, let's dive in. So, Trace, I know that you've seen this film. It's one of our shared childhood films, but tell me what's in your head about Roxanne.

SPEAKER_02: 1:59

Yeah, so immediately what comes to mind is Steve Martin in A Prosthetic Nose. I think I learned about Serena de Bergerac from this film, or because of this film, I should say. What I always remember first is Steve Martin in the nose, and then it's actually at the end after all of the shenanigans and the truth has been revealed, when Daryl Hannah, Daryl Hannah, right? When Roxanne says that she's discovered this comment, she's gonna she's naming it Charlie, which was Steve Martin's character's name, and then she says, it's my dad's name. So that's what comes to mind. Sierrana de Bergerac, Steve Martin in the nose, and Charlie's my dad's name. So, but why are we talking about it today? What's at stake for you?

SPEAKER_03: 2:42

I loved this film very, very much. And I loved Sierrana de Bergerac, which this film introduced me to. I actually accidentally stole the English language version of Sierrana de Bergerac for my ninth grade classroom. I I borrowed it and never returned it. I think it's still in her mother's house. I was such a little romantic as a kid. What's at stake is the the romance of this. I loved the idea of the fact that what attracted Roxanne to her paramour was his words and his mind. That's part of it. And then you probably don't remember this, but another thing about this movie that has stuck with me forever was when it was first out. I can remember our dad and our Aunt Valerie talking about it over dinner.

SPEAKER_02: 3:43

Huh. Do you not remember that? I mean, I remember that dad had seen it that we talked about it with dad. Because I'm pretty sure he's the one who said it was Cyrano.

SPEAKER_03: 3:51

But I don't remember that, him and Valerie talking. Because they were talking about, you know, in the modern world, it doesn't make sense that, you know, a Cyrano de Bergerac character wouldn't just have rhinoplasty. And so I remember them talking about they have a reason for it. Right. And just kind of talking and joking. And for whatever reason, that stuck with me because it they talked about movies a lot. You know, the way that you and I share movies, dad shared movies with his siblings, with his sisters. I don't know why that in particular was one of the movie moments that stuck with me. We were over there once a week for dinner, but the way that dad and Valerie talked about this movie was just a like a moment of playfulness.

SPEAKER_02: 4:40

Well, I get why that might have stuck with you because that's not exactly how Dad and Aunt Valerie like interacted most of the time.

SPEAKER_00: 4:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 4:47

Yeah. I saw the sibling dynamic, the playful sibling dynamic that was there underneath, even when it wasn't there. So that's that's what's that's what's in it for me. Let me give you some postcards from the destination, you know, some of the things that I want to talk about. I want to talk about romance, like what is romantic. I want to talk about masculinity. I want to talk about femininity as well, because that's one of the things that Roxanne says is that the letters made her feel feminine. I want to talk about adaptation because the Cierna de Bergerac, the original, is a tragedy. I want to talk about what it means to love because CD, his name is C.D. Bales, and Roxanne calls him Charlie. She he tells her she can call him Charlie, but most people call him C D. CD loves her, and because of that, he facilitates a relationship with someone else. And compersion. It's called compersion.

SPEAKER_02: 5:53

When you have joy, yeah. We know it from the polyamory sphere. Okay. It's when you have joy for one of your partners, like having love or joy, I guess.

SPEAKER_03: 6:03

I want to talk about beauty, what beauty is, what it means. And I want to talk about intelligence and comedy. This is a very funny film, but it's also based on a very funny play. So there's there's a lot in there that I that I want to talk about. And mostly I kind of just want to squeal about this movie because it's fun. This is not going to be one where uh this is not a revenge of the nerds where it's just gonna be tearing strips off of it. All right. Well, remind me of the plot. The film takes place in Nelson. I had always, for some reason, thought that it was Nelson, Colorado, but it's actually supposed to be Washington, although it was filmed in, I believe, British Columbia. But it's this gorgeous mountainous area, and that's actually one of the cinematography showing all this wooded place is absolutely brilliant and beautiful. And we meet C.D. Bales, who is the fire chief. He is the only actual employee. It is a volunteer fire department of this tiny town, Nelson, Washington. And he has a giant nose. When we first meet him, he is going to return a tennis racket to his friend Dixie that he'd borrowed like a year and a half before. When he runs into two tourists, because it is a tourist town, who immediately they're jerks, one of them played by Kevin Nealan, oddly enough, who start making fun of him for his nose. And so he very easily and handily like beats them with the tennis racket. Oh, yes. And so we immediately recognize that CD is just a very competent, intelligent, funny man because he's very funny while he's doing this. So he goes to meet with Dixie, who is like a local entrepreneur. She owns a diner called Dixie's, but she also owns several homes in the area. Meanwhile, Roxanne, who has rented one of Dixie's houses, is trying to get her cat to come in. It is the evening. As she's trying to get the cat to come in, she gets locked out and her robe gets caught in a door. And so she is locked out of her house completely naked. So she goes to the fire department to say, Can you help me get in my house? And CD is the one who answers the door to her. She likes hides and is just like, I'm not wearing any clothes. Can you please help me get in the house? He's like, Would you like a jacket or something? And she's like, No, I want to be out here in the freezing cold and nothing. And so he takes her at her word.

SPEAKER_00: 8:54

So maybe he's a little neurodivergent and doesn't understand sarcasm.

SPEAKER_03: 8:58

I don't I I don't know. Like, I'm not sure if that's like he's playing that or I don't know. Or if he did that on purpose so that you could I don't know. In any case, he brings his toolkit and all it has in it is a credit card. And it w it he can't use it to Jimmy the door open. And so this is when we learn that he does like this acrobatic thing where he climbs up the side of the wall. Yeah, remember that. Like he does like parkour to get into her house and then basically lets himself in and like cuts up some cheese and and some grapes and stuff to like have a snack in her house. And they get to talking, and she explains that she is an astronomer getting her PhD, and she is here because there is a comet that she may have discovered that will be passing over in like something like five weeks. So she's here to look at it. So they chat and he is clearly smitten. She really enjoys talking with him. He makes her laugh, but is just very interested in him as a friend. There is a new firefighter who comes in town. He is a professional firefighter who has come in to help train the volunteers who are all universally not good. They just don't know what they're doing. And there's a lot of very funny moments where they are just really bad at what they're doing. The new firefighter, his name is Chris, and he is just a hunk of man love. He is very, very good looking. And so another one of the volunteers brings him along and is like introducing him to everyone. Roxanne is out with Dixie, and they are also friends with Sandy, who is a bartender, when they see Chris, and there's like some eye flirting between Chris and Roxanne. Chris runs away and vomits because he gets so nervous around women. It takes a while before CD and Chris actually meet each other, and all the other volunteer firefighters are telling Chris, like, don't stare. He's kind of funny looking, he's got a big nose, and he's like, It's, you know, I'm not that rude. I wouldn't stare. Why are you warning me about this? There's another point where Roxanne is out to lunch with Dixie and Sandy, and she sees Chris come in to the same restaurant. Again, they make eye contact and he rushes into the bathroom and like is panicking. He like runs the water to try to like splash some water on his face, and he like manages to spill it all over his pants, so he looks like he's peed himself. I remember that. Yeah, I remember that. And so he breaks out of the window because Roxanne has decided, okay, I'm just going to like, I'll say something to him, you know, ask him out when he comes out of the bathroom. And he never comes out of the bathroom. Dixie and CD are having lunch at one point, and Sandy comes by and says, I think Roxanne's in love and doesn't know it yet. And CD thinks she means about him. So CD goes to the firehouse, and finally, even though it's been like over a week and a half, he finally meets Chris. And Chris is like overwhelmed and entranced by his nose. And he's like, They told me it was big. I didn't know it was big. Oh, I have forgotten. There was another amazing scene, and this is like direct from the Edmund Rostand, where he is out at the bar when a guy insults him, calls him big nose. And right, and he says, You can do better than that, and then does all these amazing.

SPEAKER_02: 12:49

And I remember asking dad, what did it mean when CD said that he could pleasure two women at once?

SPEAKER_00: 12:55

Yes. And dad being like, I don't know, ask someone else. Like he just didn't want to, like he did not want to deal with that question.

SPEAKER_03: 13:03

Yes. So he's like, I could do, I could do better. I could do, you know, better uh insults. He's like, well, how many insults? And he's like, here, throw a dart. And the the guy's a darts champion and gets 20. It's actually 24 because he he goes through and he's like, How many was that? And he's 14. I was like, no, actually it was 18 if you're if you're actually keeping count. But anyway, they're hilarious. Many of them are directly from Cyrneau de Bergerac and just in English and updated. Some of them are a lot dirtier. And so that was the other thing that Sandy said was like Roxanne would not stop talking about how great you were. I think she's in love and doesn't know it yet. So that's the other reason why CD thinks because Roxanne witnesses the Roxanne witnesses that incident. So when Chris is like, they said it was big, I didn't know it was big, and then realizes, like, oh my God, you're gonna kill me now. And he's like, Normally I would, but today I'm not going to. And he's like, Well, why not? And CD said, Well, yesterday she didn't, but today she does. And the next day, Roxanne sees him and says, Hey, can we talk? And she, and he's like, Okay, great. And so they they go off, they're up in the mountains, and she says, There's someone I really want to get to know better, and I'm hoping you can help me. You know, he's he's smart, he's kind, he's funny. And she had witnessed him picking up a copy of Being in Nothingness for another one of the firefighters who was too embarrassed to pick it up himself. So she thought he's an intellectual Chris.

SPEAKER_02: 14:39

So Roxanne saw Chris picking up being in nothingness.

SPEAKER_03: 14:42

Yes. So, and then she also, and he's handsome. And CD says, like, see, isn't that wonderful about like when you have feelings for someone, it can make you think they're handsome? And she's like, No, everyone thinks he's handsome. And he's like, and that's when he realizes it's not him. So she says, Can you maybe encourage him to come talk to me? And so he does. And Chris is like, Oh, that's great. She wants to talk to me, but oh my god, I can't talk to women. I like, I can be myself, I can be loose with you guys, I can be funny, but like I just I freeze up around women. So CD suggests, why don't you write her a letter? So he spends all day working on a letter and it's terrible. And he brings it over to CD to look at. And CD is like, this is not, this is not good enough, and starts to try to help him. And Chris is like, why don't you write it? You're you're saying what I feel anyway. And at first, CD says no, and then he starts like kind of getting into it. Like, so he's like, You write it, I'll sign it, it'll work. And she loves it and says, Let's have a date. So Chris shows up for a date with a hunting cap on to hide a wire so that CD can feed lines to her, which doesn't work because the radio he's using starts picking up like CB Yeah, from um like police chatter. And so Chris is such a dimwitty, is just like, we need car 405. It's like repeating it. And so uh he ends up taking the cap off and and it says really stupid, horrible stuff to her, and she storms off and goes back into her house. So they come back, both of them, and CD ends up speaking to her while concealed as Chris, until basically he talks her into Chris going up to make love to her. Which at first he's like, I did it. I did it. He then, and this is another one that's direct from the original play, he falls out of a tree in front of there, these four older women that we see over and over and over again, who are just kind of these funny old ladies, and he pretends to have been abducted by aliens with the Does he do the suckers? Yeah. Yeah, like at his arms up, yeah. So he pretends to have been abducted by aliens, and they're looking for older women to have sex with because they really know what they're doing, and they're at Roxanne's house. And so he's like sending them over there to try to interrupt things. And again, that's directly from the play. So the next day, Roxanne comes by the firehouse to say she there's big news with whatever's going on with her PhD. She's going to be out of town for a week. Could he let Chris know her address while she's out of town? Tell him to write to her. And so he ends up speaking to Chris, kind of hoping that things didn't go well. And Chris is like, no, I I well, I couldn't do it a third time. Poor CD. So CD writes letters, doesn't tell Chris about it. Meanwhile, we see Chris getting into a conversation with Sandy at the bar, and it goes really well. Like he doesn't have any nervousness with her. And she at some point says, like, I'm kind of friends with Roxanne, you kind of go with her. We we shouldn't be talking. He's like, No, no, no, it's okay. And she mentions that she's moving to Tahoe in a few days to be a cocktail waitress. And he shuffles and she's like, Wow, you could be a dealer. CD is at Dixie's writing a letter when Dixie comes by and they are are chatting, and she says, It's clear that you're in love with Roxanne. He denies it. One of her his firefighters comes in and he's like, Wait a minute, why are you dressed to be on call? And he's like, Oh, well, Roxanne came came back early and he asked me to take his shift so that he could go go see her. And he Chris asked me to take Chris asked me to take his shift. And CD's like, oh no, he doesn't know about the letters. So he rushes off to Roxanne's house, leaving the letter he's working on, and Dixie immediately reads it. And so there's shenanigans ensue with him climbing up the walls and all of that and trying to trying to tell Chris that he wrote a few letters. And he's like, How many's a few? He's like, um, about three a day. Like, well, she's gone six days, so it's like 18. He's like, Well, maybe 20 or so. And so Roxanne's like, Well, do you know why I came back early? And he's like, Well, is the letters? And she's like, They were beautiful, they were wonderful. And he's like, Well, and she's saying, like, I want you to talk to me like you did in the letters. And he basically runs away. He then goes to meet Sandy, who says, Are you coming with me or not? He's like, I'm coming. And she says, Did you break up with her? And he said, Well, I couldn't do it. And she says, You have to tell her. It isn't nice not to. And he's like, I'll write her a letter. Do you have any paper? And then you see Dixie come by and push a letter under the door of Roxanne's house. Roxanne calls C D and asks him to come over, and she shows him both those letters. Didn't Dixie write? Yes. So, but it takes a minute before that. So shows shows him Chris's letter, which is like, I'm really sorry if I hurt you. I met another girl and she's real cute too. Like, it's not good. And then the other one is she. Like, please read it. And then it like and it peters off at the end. And she's like, finish it. And he's like, well, that's that's all it says. And she's like, turn it over. And then on the other side, it says, CD wrote this, call me Dixie. So they have a huge argument because she's like, You wrote the letters. And he doesn't deny it. Then he kind of slut shames her. He's like, you know, it didn't didn't take much, you know, a few, few nice words, and you're counting ceiling tiles, which is a weird, gross way to say it. And they end up out on her porch and she's like, You get out of here. And he's like, I am out. You get in. It's not love. She goes in, slams the door, and he goes, like, 10 more seconds and I'm leaving. And then she comes out and opens the door. She's like, What did you say? And he said, 10 more seconds and I'm leaving. She said, Oh. And he goes, What did you think I said? I thought you said earn more sessions by sleeving. He's like, What does that mean? I have no idea. That's why I asked. So he's counting. And then he like starts sniffing the air. And he goes to the firehouse and he smells a fire somewhere. And his fire department like follows him as he's sniffing the air and he finds a building that's on fire. And they are finally, even without Chris, able to put out this fire. And they are afterwards, they're celebrating at Dixie's. He says to Dixie, I need to talk to you later. And so later comes, he's talking to her, and like he kind of gets up and she flinches, which I really don't like. And he goes home and you see him up on his roof. And Roxanne comes to the house and is quoting one of his letters to him. Then she says to him, Charlie, you have a big nose. And he's like, and she goes, You have a big, beautiful nose. Like, it's not like the flat, boring faces of other people. And like, I loved your letters. And, you know, yes, Chris was pretty, but what I fell in love with was the words. I fell in love with the mind. I fell in love with all of that. So he comes down and they kiss, which takes a minute because it doesn't work the first couple of times. And she finally negotiates a nose. Yeah. So then they go into his house, and then that's the moment that you remember where she had talked about how she could name the comet. And she'd said she was gonna name a comet Kowalski, which is her last name. She's like, Yeah, Comet Charlie. He's like, Oh. He's like, Yeah, that's that's my father's name. That's the end of the movie. What's the word you you were saying where you you are happy for your loved ones? Compersian. So that is what's going on in the original Cyrneau de Bergerac, because it's a tragedy in the original Christian dies without Roxanne ever finding out that he's not the one who wrote. And there is no sex in the original because it was from the 17th century. And so Cyrno keeps the secret for 30 years because to him, Roxanne's happiness is more important than his own. And I never really knew how to feel about that in the original. Like in some ways, I found it utterly romantic, and in other ways I was just like, Sir No, get over yourself, dude.

SPEAKER_02: 23:59

Yeah, that definitely feels like I don't know. You know, I always say to you, to me, to anybody who makes the mistake of asking me for advice, you should always move toward what you want, not away from what you're afraid of. Yeah. Right. That's very much moving away from what you're afraid of. Cyrno was.

SPEAKER_03: 24:16

And had Christian not died, it would be much clearer to me in the original story. Yeah. Because there's a like, it's not as fair. They had decided, we'll let her choose. Oh. And then he died. And so it's not as fair. Then she ends up with no love of her life.

SPEAKER_01: 24:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 24:37

So it's not fair to her either.

SPEAKER_01: 24:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 24:39

And then the end of the play is Cyreno receives a mortal wound. He knows he's dying, and he goes to visit Roxanne. It's 30 years in the future. She has become a nun, I think, because without Christian, she does not want to marry. Ugh. Sorry. I know. I know.

SPEAKER_00: 25:00

And so definitely a man, definitely wrong. Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 25:04

Yeah. So she, she, so he goes to visit her. She's always glad to see him. Like he has been a steadfast friend. They have, they like he has had like he's enjoyed the friendship of this woman that he loves all this time. And so he is sitting there bleeding to death without her knowing it, because he's like hidden the fact that he's dying. And he's quoting the letters he wrote to her, to her. And she understands in the last moments of his life, oh my God, I wasn't in love with him. I was in love with you. And so there's it's this like gut-wrenching agony of like she loses him twice. That's where it's like, no, you should have told her.

SPEAKER_02: 25:57

Somebody once told me the truth is not always easy, but it's always your friend. Yeah.

unknown: 26:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 26:05

You know, sometimes your friends need to do a little tough love, but like the truth is your friend.

SPEAKER_03: 26:09

Yeah. Yeah. So what I appreciate about Steve Martin's, because he wrote this, he wanted to do an update and he wanted it to have a happy ending of Serena de Bergiac, is he gave Cyrino the happy ending. And he gave Roxanne a lot more agency. Yeah. So, and even the like the compersion aspect of it, he wanted her to be happy, but he was not self-sacrificing like Syrano was. Even in the the moment of him, like at every point, he was doing these things thinking of her, and then kind of belatedly realizing, like, ah, crap. I'm not sure that I would describe what happens in Roxanne as Comperd. Yeah. But what I kind of appreciate about it is he's getting into the loving aspect of it because he gets to do what he wants to do, which is write her letters, which is tell her how he feels, because that is actually more important to him than the sex. And that's not to say the sex isn't important to him. But he's not thinking about the sex because what he's thinking about is like, I get to tell the woman I love how I feel about her. And that is amazing. So there's something so romantic about that and so fulfilling and satisfying about that. It's a farce because of how it's going about, how he's going about it and how it happens. But there's something delightful about it's all rooted in the fact that he is so in love and that his love is pure in a way. Like he cares about her, not her body, not her looks, even though of course he is attracted to her physically, that what is important to him is capturing that with words.

SPEAKER_02: 28:25

I mean, yes, and she's friggin' Daryl Hannah, and he met her when she was naked. So I feel like that takes away a little bit of your point here. Yes. I mean, I like it. I'm glad that Steve Martin made this Roxanne a brilliant astronomer working on her PhD and not just some pretty face. It is more than just the fact that she's beautiful. Like there is a deeper connection that's about their intellect and all of those things. And I think to his credit, that that's the way he wrote it. Great, great. But your point that this is somehow like pure and and like not about the physical is undermined by the casting and by the fact that he meets her naked the first time he meets her.

SPEAKER_03: 29:13

Well, what I'm what I mean is every other man we see when talking to any woman objectifies them just completely.

SPEAKER_01: 29:23

Right. And like Chris doesn't give a shit that she's an astronomer, right? Like that's not why he likes her. He likes her because she's pretty, because she's Daryl Hannah. Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 29:31

And like we see her deal very ablely with people who like objectify her. And we see her like talk about how like I just I want someone with a brain. I want someone who is not just about like Daryl Hannah knows, or Roxanne knows she's Daryl Hannah. Roxanne knows that she's gorgeous, and like that is not what she wants from an encounter with a man. She she doesn't want a man who's just gonna be like, you're pretty. Like, she doesn't want that. And she knows she's pretty. She doesn't need someone to tell her that. She doesn't need someone to talk about her looks. And we see only some of or hear only some of the things that CD writes to her. One of them, the the letter at the end that he didn't finish. He writes about You changed your hair. Yeah, you changed your hair only a little bit. Remember. Um, but I noticed. But I noticed. And it was like I like staring at the sun, because every time I close my eyes, it's there, it's imprinted on my eyelids. And so, like, that is about how she looks, but it's not about her looks, it's about how she presents herself, it's about her choices still. That's an interesting take. And so that to me is for someone who constantly gets praise for her looks, that's gotta be like intoxicating.

SPEAKER_02: 31:07

So I usually take some notes on where you want to go, and we didn't do that before we hit record today. Yeah. But I'm trying to remember some of the postcards that you gave me. You wanted to talk about masculinity and femininity. You wanna go there?

SPEAKER_03: 31:21

Yeah. So in terms of masculinity, CD is interesting in that he is like he has mastered a lot of different aspects of masculinity. Like he wins that fight initially against two guys. He can eviscerate people with his words. The scene that I mentioned where he does the 20, which is actually 24 insults against the guy. Once he's done that, the guy tries to like then make it a physical fight. And he, while walking away, CD like punches, like hits him in the balls and then punches him in the face. And then he goes up to Roxanne. Like over his shoulder. And then he goes up to Roxanne. He's like, has he fallen yet? And she like looks over, she's like, now yes. And then he's like, Great, thanks. And he walks away. So, like, and this is Steve Martin, who I don't know exactly how old he was, but he was about 40, I think. And, you know, slender, gray-haired guy, big nose. So, like, he can fight, he's a good manager, like, because he's he's he's a boss, he's a good cook. They establish that. He can write, so he's very smart, he's very funny. So, like, he's kind of like the top of his game in all the ways that a man might want to cultivate himself. Okay. But he is very clearly very sensitive about his nose. And it's interesting because it seems like he's cultivated all these like masculine skills because of it. Because of the nose. Because of the nose. And now, some of it, like a lot of comedians were, you know, bullied kids. So, like, if you if you are the one making the jokes, then like they're not laughing at you, they're laughing with you, you know, that sort of thing. Sure. But it's interesting about the like the this idea of like masculinity, he's not, he doesn't exact he doesn't have the kind of toxic masculinity you see from so many other people. You see other men being like toxic to women, saying things like I don't remember, like, are you playmate of the month from July 85 to women as a way of flirting with us? As a pickup line. As a pickup line. Yeah, it's gross. And you see the mayor played by Fred Willard, but he's great in the role, kind of like putting people down in a very Fred Willard kind of way. I would rather pee with the people of Nelson than with the finest people of the world. So there's there's this kind of toxicity that that CeeDee avoids. You know, his best friend is Dixie, who's played by Shelly Duval, by the way, who I love. Oh, and there's there's this wonderful moment where there is a kid up on the roof of his house who's been up there for a day. They send CD up because he's the the fire chief to get him down. And so he climbs, climbs up because that's what he does and talks to him. And the kid is a heavy kid. He says, Why are you up here? What's going on? He's like, kids at cool school call me porky. And CD immediately goes, God damn it, why do they have to do that? He's like, Oh, I shouldn't have said that in front of you. And he talks to the kid, and the kid ends up calling the other kids at school bastards. He's like, Oh, I shouldn't have said that in front of you. The kid says that. And so, and he's very, I was worried when I saw that because I was just like, Oh crap, where how does this go? And it goes fine. It really goes fine. The kid says to CD, like, do I have to come down now? He's like, No, you can stay up here. We'll stay up here together. And like, just is is like open to just having the kid be.

SPEAKER_02: 35:10

So do you think here's where maybe you're going with this when you like the way you mentioned comedians being bullied. Like, do you think that within the universe of this movie, that if CD had been born with a typical nose, that maybe he wouldn't be so non-toxically masculine? Possibly. Possibly.

SPEAKER_03: 35:31

I think that it has definitely made him compassionate. Like that made him the right person to go up to talk to the kid on the roof. Mm-hmm. Who was being bullied. Who is being bullied, yeah. And I think it also made him more likely to be Roxanne's equal. Mm-hmm. Because he has worked so hard to improve his thinking, improve his wordplay, improve his physicality, all of that. Yeah. But it also has made him very self-loathing rather than like entitled, which is what the men we otherwise see exhibiting is that kind of entitlement. I mean, uh it not exactly. Like Chris, there's something kind of adorable about the fact that he like vomits the first time he sees Roxanne. Right. And there was a reviewer I read who talked about what works for this film is that Sandy and Chris fit together. And Roxanne and CD fit together. They are appropriate. And I have always liked that. Like that when Chris meets Sandy, he's able to talk to her. And his jokes make her laugh, even though they're much less intelligent than CD's jokes. Like he's having lunch at her bar and he's like, Yeah, I'll have a beer, and she's like, draft. And he's like, Oh, a little, but I'll put my sweater on if it gets too cold.

SPEAKER_02: 37:03

Chris says that.

SPEAKER_03: 37:04

Chris says that. So, like, that's a solid B plus pun. Sure. But she laughs really hard at it. And then, like, she's really impressed with the fact that he's been to San Francisco and New York City. And the fact that he can shuffle cars well. Yes. Yeah. And then he's originally from Albuquerque. And the reason I know how to spell it is because, like, he he says he's from Albuquerque, and she's like, A-L-B-U-Q-U-A-L-B-U-Q-U-E-R-Q-U-E. She's like, Oh, it's an old bar bet. So I know how to spell Albuquerque because of that. And so, like, they fit together in a way that he would never fit with Roxanne. Right. And I felt like that, that's part of the thesis of this film, is that love should be a meeting of the minds in a way.

SPEAKER_02: 37:50

And I think it's, yes, right. There are people to whom you are suit. I I think it's it's even more than that. Yes, I think that's right. It's a meeting of the minds, but it's actually more than that. There are people to whom you are suited physically. And there are people to whom you are suited intellectually. And there are people to whom you may be suited both, but the intellectual should drive. I think that's the thesis, right? Like that's the suggestion here. Because Chris and Roxanne are suited physically. Like they like the way one another look, but that's not the basis for a long-term romance. Yeah. Says this film. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 38:28

I do want to also talk about femininity.

SPEAKER_02: 38:31

Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about that. Because you've pointed out the fact that Roxanne here is someone who's constantly getting praised for the way that she looks. And yet these letters made her feel feminine.

SPEAKER_03: 38:41

So let's talk about that. So I didn't remember that from the film. You know, she says, I loved your letters. They made me feel alive. They made me feel feminine. And I was really struck by that. Cause I was like, what does it mean that something made you feel feminine? I mean, the movie doesn't tell us. It doesn't tell us what she means by that to feel feminine. And this is, you know, a 30-year-old movie, right? No, 40, nearly 40-year-old movie, excuse me. So, you know, this is not someone who has any questions about her femininity. But it made her feel desired, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 39:20

It's more than that, though, because I think someone who gets all the praise for her looks constantly feels desired. Yeah. But this is actually an interesting nuance from this film that was, I'm sure not like super intentional, right? But like as a smart woman, right? Like it's complicated. You know, I recently saw something like, you know, it was some stupid thing, like some bro talking about different things that he would judge women on. And like, he's not even in the orbit. Like this dude would never desire me. And I don't want to be desired by this. You know what I mean? And yet feeling desired, being desirable is something we all want. But it's complicated, I think, for a smart woman. Because if a smart woman feels as though she is desired for her looks and body alone, it's like not the whole self. It's like I have to check the thing that makes me me at the door in order for you to desire me. Yes. And that that's not real. And so for her, for Roxanne to say that these beautiful intellectual letters made me feel feminine. I'm doing this in real time. Makes me like project that she felt desired in her totality, which for smart women, I think you and I can say by experience, is fairly rare. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 40:51

Yeah. This reminds me of Pierce Brosnan, is married to an absolutely gorgeous woman who had been a model, but she, as many of us with bodies do, has gained weight and is now an absolutely gorgeous woman who's probably about 40 or 50 pounds more than she was when they got married. And Pierce Brosnan is still clearly very much in love with her. Like every time you see pictures of them that they're clearly devoted to each other. He is someone who has aged. His genetics have made it that he is gorgeous at every age. And I've seen people talk about like really shitty, horrible things, like why hasn't he upgraded and bullshit like that? And that's kind of what you what I feel like you're talking about. Like where it is very clear that the love and the desire between the two of them is about the essence of each other.

SPEAKER_02: 41:47

I mean, the physicality matters. Oh, I'm not saying it doesn't. Right? You changed your hair and like the sun, it's in burns into my brain. Like that's about the way she looks. Yes. But it's not all right.

SPEAKER_03: 42:01

It's backed up. Yes. And like the essence of who you are includes how you look. Right. And I feel like also feeling feminine is being able to let go of that, like, oh, you only like me because of how I look. And just enjoy the like, oh, you see how smart I am and you like how I look. So like that feeling feminine is like, oh, I can enjoy the fact that you like how I look. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02: 42:30

Yeah. Which is also rare. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Shout out to all of my partners who make me feel that way. We're running a little short on time. I want to make sure you have time to talk about anything. So you in your postcards, you also mentioned romance. Have we talked about that to the extent that you wanted to?

SPEAKER_03: 42:53

Yes. I well, the way that C D goes about romancing Roxanne is so intentional because he writes. He writes letters and then he speaks to her. And that is very rare in the modern world because I mean, uh partially because, like, who writes letters anymore? Even in 1987.

SPEAKER_00: 43:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 43:18

It's also like I was trying to think of what the modern equivalent would be. I like you couldn't do this in 2026.

SPEAKER_02: 43:26

That's like text threads or something.

SPEAKER_03: 43:28

Yeah. Yeah. So the thinking through what you want to say and thinking through how you want to present yourself, because that's really what this is. Like, that's what Serena de Bergerac is about, is about how you present yourself to another human being. There's something very heady about that and very romantic about it. There's a reason why we love this story and we keep retelling it, and there's iterations of it over and over and over again. And there was a version of it with Peter Dinklage as Cyrano. So instead of a nose, it's because Peter Dinklage is a little person, which a little person. Yeah. It's amazing. And because we can all understand that feeling of not being enough for our love. And then that wanting to present ourselves in the best possible light. So there's something both like romantic and tragic about it. And the fact that Steve Martin was able to make it romantic and hilarious.

SPEAKER_02: 44:28

Yeah, that comedy was another thing you wanted to talk about.

SPEAKER_03: 44:30

Yes. This is a very funny movie. And while Edmund Rostand was funny as well, I mean it's it's a it's a funny play because Serena de Bergrac is a funny person. It's kind of amazing the amount of humor that Steve Martin is able to wring out of these moments, especially because I don't like cringe humor. Right. And I still love this movie. Like loved it to the point where I watched it over and over again as a kid. And part of that is just Steve Martin is so charming. He is really charming. He's so charming. But the comedy of that misunderstanding comedy, the comedy of one person standing in for another while also being incredibly romantic. Oh man, that's my catnip. Like, I don't like how do you do that? That's incredible. Yeah. All right. Any final points before I try to reflect back? I will tell you, when I'm trying to get my son's attention and I can't get them to listen to me, in my head, boys, boys, the ladder's up. Boys, boys, the ladder is up. Runs through my head. Because when they're turning from trying to get snowball the cat from the uh tree, they're going with the ladder with the ladder up. It's just that lives rent-free in my head. That's funny.

SPEAKER_02: 45:56

All right. So let me see if I can reflect back to you some of your deep thoughts about this film Roxanne by Steve Martin, which is a retelling, a modern retelling of the Sierra No de Bergerac play. Some of the things that we spent a lot of time actually talking about, like talking about romance and femininity and like what is more important and sort of how people are suited. And we talked about sort of physical, being suited physically and being suited intellectually. And the hypothesis of this film is that the intellectual match is the one that matters, is the one that is sort of more real and drives true love. Like that's what love actually is, is that is where the intellectual match is primary. We also spent some time talking about femininity and what it means for Roxanne to have said that these letters made her feel feminine. And you and I both had some, I think, some like sympathy and like empathy to the idea that for a smart woman to have her intellect be a part of the attraction and not sort of like, I like you even though you're smart, is actually sort of rare and makes sense that that would feel if feeling feminine for this straight woman is also part and parcel to feeling desired and desirable. That makes a lot of sense to us. On the other side of the coin, we talked about masculinity and the fact that this character, C D has sort of mastered a lot of the sort of primary areas of masculinity and done so in a way that has not made him toxic mostly, which we wondered if that's in fact because of the huge nose, about which he is very sensitive, but also which forced him to kind of learn these other skills potentially, which is an interesting sort of hypothesis or assumption underlying the film and possibly even the source material. You talked about the romantic piece of the tragedy of the original play that on reflection does not actually feel really healthy. It removes agency from Roxanne entirely when Cyrene O chooses not to tell her that he had written the letters. And it also denies both of them 30 years of potential happiness. And then we also spoke a bit about comedy and the way that this film and the source material is so very funny. Mixed up with romance is your catnip. And also, I think in the original was sort of the foil to the tragedy. And in this film, like was a really interesting vehicle for very charming Steve Martin. I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but we are kind of out of time. So any like really important thing for us to note. This is well worth the rewatch. So next week, Emma, I'm gonna bring you my deep thoughts about the animated series Daria. Cool. I'm looking forward to that. And listener, if you want to hear some of the shit that we forgot to say in this episode, head on over to our Patreon. You will have to pony up, but we are going to hop on another recording and record the shit that we forgot to say. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon. There's a link in the show notes. Or leave a positive review so others can find us. And of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompitech.com. Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head?