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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Comedy Podcast
80s and 90s movies and early 2000s tv may be called stupid shit by some, but you know it matters. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, sister podcasters who love well-crafted fiction and one another. In this comedy podcast, we look at the classic movies of our Gen X childhood and adolescence, analyzing film tropes to uncover the cultural commentary on romance, money, religion, mental health, and more. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, comedy to drama to horror, we use feminism, our super smart brains, and each other to uncover the lessons lurking behind the nostalgia of pop culture. Come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Comedy Podcast
Brassed Off: Deep Thoughts About Collective Bargaining and Politics in Pop Culture
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The truth is, I thought it mattered. I thought that music mattered. But does it bollocks. Not compared to how people matter.
Tracie goes back in time to her semester in London in 1997 by revisiting the British film Brassed Off. This “emphatically empathetic” piece of 1990s pop culture crystallized the importance of collective bargaining, worker solidarity and mutual aid for a not-quite 21-year-old Tracie. With today’s eyes, both the film and the politics of 1980s-1990s Great Britain it depicts are more complicated than the pop culture made it seem 30 years ago. Nevertheless, there are some beautiful storytelling–and musical–beats in this real-life story of a coal mine and the brass band associated with it. North American audiences may never have realized this, if they only went by the marketing copy that inaccurately described the film as a “delightfully entertaining comedy treat.”
Remember, band’s on Tuesdays. Tonight’s origami class, so throw on your headphones and take a listen.
Mentioned in this episode:
Den of Geek: https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/brassed-off-a-90s-uk-film-that-demands-not-to-be-forgotten/
Tags: deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, pop culture, film, movies, storytelling, movie reviews, comedy, comedy podcast, romance, women, fiction, cultural commentary
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
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The film poster is you and McGregor and Tara Fitzgerald like smiling at each other as if it's a freaking rom-com. And to be frank, like that relationship is kind of a side note. It's a subplot. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know what's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. This is Tracy Guy Decker, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1996 British film Brassed Off with my sister, Emily Guy Birken, and with you. Let's dive in. Okay, so you told me right before we hit record that you have not seen this film.
SPEAKER_00:So is there anything in your mind about this movie? Tabula rasa. You were saying, like, what do you know about this? And I was like, Is it the one with Christopher Reeve? Which I think is Noises Off that I'm thinking of, which maybe. So I got nothing. You said Ewan McGregor was in it. I was just like, okay. I got zilch. Okay. So tell me what this is.
SPEAKER_01:This should be fun. This should be fun. So this is a film, 1996. I think I probably saw it in '97. When you were in London? When I was in London, I believe so. And it's a British-made film about Britons. And I associate this film with my understanding of the importance of collective bargaining and, you know, worker solidarity, and also like all that goes with that kind of antagonism that happens between management and unions. I was in England my junior year abroad, studying British politics. And so, and we we talked a lot about class consciousness in England and in Britain, Great Britain writ large.
SPEAKER_00:It's really weird there in ways that I don't entirely comprehend. Yeah, it's much more complicated compared to America than it is here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And so I remember it very fondly. I also associate it with that chumbawamba song. I get not kicked out. He takes a whiskey drink. Yes, that song. That song was sort of kind of about this movie. Like it samples one of the key speeches. Really? In the album version, it has um Pete Passworthwaite's, I used to think that music mattered, but does it bollocks? Anyway, so those are the things that I associate with. But when we were thinking about what to do, I was thinking, I was really thinking about like going back to this now, that my political consciousness is so much more nuanced than it was in 1997 when I saw this movie originally. And the world has changed a lot. So I wanted to go back and sort of see how it holds up and if it gives me the goosebumps the way that it did back then. So that's why we're looking at it. So before I give you a little bit of a synopsis, a couple of postcards from the end, like I want to talk about the craft of this movie because it's is very much has a political message. And it also very rarely feels like propaganda. So I think that's like the skill of the movie makers. It's about a pit closure, a mine closure, coal mine. And so, like looking at it now that we more fully understand the environmental impacts of coal, like kind of changes. It doesn't change exactly, but it it complicates my feelings about the film. So I want to talk about that a little bit. There's one key female character who like navigates all male spaces, and some kind of like there's some kind of uncomfortable things said to her that she sort of takes in stride because it is part of the culture. And I want to talk about that and the way that that happens for people who are like the only in the room, and the way they learn to kind of navigate that. And this is an example of that. The idea that music matters, that music is permanent and important, and that what role that has in people's lives where other things that are like less permanent, like that's an important question that this movie asks. So we'll talk about art in that role. And then finally, like, I want to talk about North American art audiences and this movie because it was sold as like a rom-com to US audiences, and it is not. So I want to talk about what that says about our culture in the US. So before I get there, let me see if I can give you a synopsis of the plot. I don't need to give a blow blind blow, so let's see if I can avoid doing that. How often do we say that? Every week. I know, I know. So this movie is about the fictional town of Grimley in Yorkshire, in England, which is a very thinly veiled version of Grimelf?
SPEAKER_00:Let me get this right. Is this one of those towns that's got like 67 letters or oh, okay. No, no, no.
SPEAKER_01:I just want to make sure I get it right. So Grimley is a very thinly veiled version of Grimthorpe. So it's a real life story. So there is a it's a mining town, and coal mining is the industry. All the men work in the mine, pretty much. There is also a brass band associated with the pit. So it's the Grimley colliery band, which is again, there was an actual, there is still a Grimthorpe colliery band that this movie was based on.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna need a little what is a brass band that's associated with a pit? The miners' hobby is playing musical instruments. Just didn't know if that if it was like, you know, how like on ships you sing while you roam. No, no, no.
unknown:Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I just didn't know if it was like a wall or if it was like a hobby. Gotcha. It's a hobby. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:But it's very serious. It's been around for a long time. So it It's a tradition. It's a tradition. The band was formed in like 1913 or something. The movies made in 96, is taking place around 92 or 93, so just a few years prior. So the context of the movie that I think British movie makers would not have needed needed explaining is that the Thatcher government, so co the coal industry is a public utility, the government owns the pits. And the Thatcher government is closing mines, like one after another. They've closed, by the time this movie opens, they've already closed, I think, six or seven. And what happens is there are unions or a union, there's a coal coal miners union, but in '84, there was a huge strike, one of the largest strikes in terms of impact and people affected, like in the history of the world, apparently, this coal miners strike. The miners lost in a lot of ways. And that sort of broke the spirit of the unions. And then and now these pit closures are happening. And what happens is that the management offers a really big severance package, and then the miners get to vote to take the package or to stay working. And of course, they make it like it's take it or leave it.
SPEAKER_00:This has been happening throughout the country. So just when was the Thatcher era? When did that end? Actually in '97.
SPEAKER_01:Really? Yeah. Her successor in the Tory party was still was in rule in '97. Labor actually took parliament. Is when Labor took over. Yeah. Okay. The year that I was there. I actually canvassed for the Labor Party while it was there.
SPEAKER_00:I did not know that.
SPEAKER_01:You didn't know that? It had been 17 years of Tory rule at that point. Wow. Okay. So Thatcher was not the prime minister that in those entire 17 years, but most of them she was. Okay. Okay. So this movie shows us what's happening in the mines, the men actually working, like the soot and the coal dust all over them, and then also the band, which we learn is this very important thing. We're introduced to a cast of characters. Pete Passlethwaite plays Danny, who is the band leader. He's a retired coal miner, and the band is like his whole life. The music is the whole life. He keeps telling everyone it's the music that matters. That is like his mantra. We also meet his son, Phil, who's a trombonist who plays in the band. Phil is married to Sandra. They have several kids. I'm not sure how many. And things are not good for Phil and Sandra. They don't have enough money. We learned through the course of the movie that the strike in '84 was very hard on him, and he's still paying off the debt that happened as a result of the strike 10 years earlier. We also meet a whole cast of characters who are minors and band members. And they actually, even these minor characters are fairly well fleshed out, and you really feel like you know about them and care about them. The other one that is really important is Ewan McGregor's character, Andy Barrow. And Andy's a young guy, grew up in Grimley working in the mines. And then we meet Gloria, played by Tara Fitzgerald. She sort of shows up and she's in like a boarding house, she has all this stuff, and we learn that she has a fugal with her, which is some sort of brass instrument, kind of like a trumpet. I don't know enough about brass instruments to know the difference between a fugal or a trumpet, but apparently it matters. Anyway, the landlady sees this instrument and she's like, Do you play? And she's like, Yeah, sometimes I was hoping maybe I could get some practice in. And then Landy's let landlady's like, uh, not here, and sends her to where the band practices. She shows up, it's like 50 dudes with all their breast instruments, and they're like blinking at her, you know, like, what are you doing? She's like, Is this the band practice? And here's a moment of humor, which is infused. One of the guys says, No, that's on Thursday. Tonight is origami class, you know, with these 50 guys sitting around with brass instruments. So turns out she is from Grimley. She grew up in Grimley. She was actually Danny, the band leader's best friend's granddaughter. The best friend Arthur was one of the best men that ever was until his lungs gave out in 79. So she comes in and plays with them and takes like some song where there's the fugal has like this solo and it's gorgeous, of course. So she joins the band while she's in Grimley for work. We don't know why. So we start to see this slice of life. We get to know all these people. Like things are really hard. Fill in Sandra. We see Sandra at the grocery store. This is the son of the band leader, his wife, Sandra, with all her kids at the grocery store. And she's checking out and she doesn't have enough money. She has to send the kid to put something back. She still needs is like 40 pence short. And one of the other wives that we've met who's working behind the counter, like says, Oh, you'll just pay us next week. Don't forget your receipt, and like slips her a bill, you know, some sort of pound note to like help help her with some money. And things are really hard in the town. We see union meetings and arguments, and it's really hard. And we hear from the guys, not from Danny, but we hear from the guys that if the pit closes, the band's gonna fold. There just is no band without a pit. Turns out Andy, Ewan McGregor's character, and Gloria, when they were kids, were a thing. And she pretends she doesn't remember him, says, Barry, Barry Andrews. His name is Andy Barrows. And later she admits she always knew who he was. Cause and he at one point calls her the love of his life. Like, so they're reunited. Meanwhile, the guys are saying, Wait, Gloria Mullins, the chubby girl? And there's like a kind of some yucky, like fat shaming about her when she was younger. One of the other guys says, Gloria, when she first comes into the band room, she says her first name. Danny asks her last name. He says Gloria, like waiting for her to provide her last name. And one of the other guys says Stits, Gloria Stits. And like, yuck! Like she could hear him. Anyway. That took me a second, but ew. Yeah. He doesn't say Gloria Stits. He says Gloria tits. But yeah. So we see them. She navigates it actually really deftly. At one point, they're they get on a chartered bus to go play at some festival or something. And she gets on and sits between two guys, and they're clearly like over the top flirting with her. And they want to know what she does for a living. She says, Well, I'm a surveyor. And one of the guys says, I got something for you to survey. And she says, Well, I do say no job too small. So, like, she like navigates it sort of deftly. We see that the band are pretty much out of hope. And they they're doing this festival where they play something like 14 songs in like in different competitions with different bands. And like their playing gets progressively worse as their beer consumption gets progressively higher, which really upsets Danny because it's such an embarrassment. Meanwhile, Danny is coughing up coal dust. He has black lung, nobody knows. And like shit's just falling apart. They do like a semifinals and they do pretty well for some sort of brass band competition. And Danny wants to go to Albert Hall for the finals, the big competition. But when they they're doing really well, the vote takes place. Like it's in it's not happening at the same time, but it's interspersed in the movie. So we're like cutting back and forth between them playing and the votes happening. So the the union vote about whether to take this right. The union vote and the management has offered them 25,000 pounds severance plus a 3,000 pound sweetener. I looked it up, I did the calculations. That ends up being almost$100,000 in today's dollars. So with the exchange rate plus the um inflation, 28,000 pounds in 1992 or four, whenever this was, is like 97,000 2025 dollars. And these guys are like we we just see over and over again just how desperate and poor they are. So just as Ewan McGregor's character has predicted, they vote four to one to close the pit. We learn that what Gloria does, the reason she's in Grimley, she works for the National Coal Board, which is management. She's writing a report about a feasibility study, basically. Like, is this pit still profitable? And it is. And it doesn't really matter. She thinks she can save her town that she grew up in. But in the end, we find out, which the miners actually mostly knew, the government has decided two years ago to shut this pit down. So they needed to the optics of this report that she's working on, but they were it never was gonna make a difference. They get back from doing really well at the semifinals to find the pit already stopped operations. And it's really like quite a scene. And then Danny is sort of the band leader, Pestle Fwaite, is like walking and he collapses. So he ends up in the hospital, and there's this really touching scene where the band gathers on the lawn outside the his hospital room and play Danny Boy. And meanwhile, like Ewan McGregor has like lost his instrument in a pool game. So he's like whistling, and they're all wearing their like mining caps with the lights. And then they finish Danny Boy and they like click them all off. So the sound of the clicks after the brass band, he can hear them and he's really touched. And he sends a nurse down to say, like, message from Mr. I can't remember his last name. You need a little more loudness in the tenor, all tenor brass or whatever, like some like note on their performance, which they all appreciate. So Danny still thinks they're gonna go to Albert Hall. Like he's been working on the arrangements that one of the other guys is gonna conduct for them, but we learn that it's gonna cost 3,000 pounds for them to go. It's just not possible. Gloria leaves. She's not wanted because now they know she works for management. And we see a brief confrontation of her and her boss where she realizes she's been played. So she comes back and they're like, What are you doing here? And she said, I thought you would want this. And she gives them a checkbook. She says it's a new account in the name of the Collier band with 3,000 pounds in it. They say, Is this your money? And she says, Yes, I don't want it. It's dirty money. So they go to Albert Hall. Phil had been tasked with telling his dad that they weren't going. He kept putting it off. He put everything off. This poor guy, he's like works on the side as like a birthday clown and ends up attempting to take his life. And there's this like scene that's like really haunting of him dressed as the clown and hanging from one of the mine operations. He doesn't die. He the some cops are walking and like hear him calling for help and cut him down. But in the hospital, the same hospital where his dad is, that's where he ends up saying, like, we can't go because we can't afford it. So when Gloria gives the money, he comes back and like leaves a note that just says we're going. And dad, Danny, like just leaves without being authorized. They go to Albert Hall, they're all playing. Danny comes in from behind, watches them play a really stirring version of William Tell overture, and they win. And like, again, interspersed with this amazing thing is like the town just sort of shutting down, like, and all the terrible things that are happening to the town as a result of this closure. And then this, the final moments, Danny accepts, except he doesn't, the award. He says, This is that speech that Chumbawamba sampled, where he says, We're not going to accept this because then it'll be newsworthy. I used to think that music matters, but does it bollocks, not compared to how people matter? And he says to the crowd, if these men were seals or whales, you would be up in arms, but they're not. And so you don't care. And they're all these like beautiful, talented, wonderful human beings, and not one of them with an ounce of hope left. It's really stirring. And then they do end up taking the trophy because that they're on a double-decker bus playing like pomp and circumstance as they drive through London. And that's the end of the film. So it's a very one commentator called it emphatically empathetic. And I think that's like well put. Re-watching it, like I remember why this felt like I won't say it radicalized me, but it crystallized in some ways for me the importance of collective bargaining and unions and solidarity and mutual benefit. I didn't have any of those words at the time, but that sort of sense of the importance of workers' rights. So let me just stay there since that's where I am. Because in watching it now, I watched it again. As an American in 2025, I happened to be in London for six months in 97. And so I had a little bit of the culture in my brain, but not really. So without that full context, I'm watching this and I'm going, like, yeah, this is horrible. What happened? Like 250,000 workers ended up being laid off as a result of these pit closures.
SPEAKER_00:And can you give me a little context? Why were they closing the pits? Like, let me get to that.
SPEAKER_01:Let me get to it. Okay. Okay. So watching it now without that context that you're asking for, I'm watching, I'm saying, like, yeah, this is terrible that these people were left so destitute. And also, like, coal is awful. Like, it's so bad for the environment. And it was killing the miners, which we saw. Like, the best friend had been dead since 79. Danny is dying of black lung. Like, it's so awful. Like, it felt like more complicated to me than it had when I watched it in '96. And then I started doing some research to answer the questions that you have. Okay. So I thought, like, my initial thought was the Thatcher government wanted to invest in nuclear, and that was that was why they were disinvesting in coal. But no, they actually just decided it was cheaper to import than to mine in Britain. And when I realized that, I was like, what the actual fuck? Right? Like 250,000 people and these towns that like apparently, if what I read is to be believed, in the 80s and 90s, Grimthorpe, that is the town on which Grimley was based, was like the poorest, I don't know what they call the municipalities, but the poorest municipality in the whole region. So it's like taking scraps away from starving people. Yeah. It's like, and in order for like not for environmental reasons, which is my initial kind of reaction, not like to protect workers from the black lung, but just for straight up, straight profit, not even to change the basis of energy. They're still going to use coal.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And importing it is actually making is worse for the environment. Exactly. Well, and as I understand it, like Thatcher's like awful. Like everything I hear about Thatcher is that she was awful.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, I think if you were rich, you didn't think so, but Well, of course not. Yeah. So the coal industry had been made a public benefit, like in I don't remember the exact date. I I read it this morning, but sometime in the 20s, I think. Or maybe it was in the no, I'm sorry, it was in the 40s. In like 47, it became a public benefit. So I guess after the war. And so it was a, or public benefit's the wrong word. It was a government. Public utility agency. Yeah. So it was the government behind the National Coal Board. It was again privatized, like in the, I think, late 90s or early 2000s. And now it's very, very small. Like this used to be a huge industry for the region and or for the country. And it is not anymore, as a result of these, these pit closures. And the thing is that the movie makes clear that the government understood the desperation of the miners and exploited it by making these very generous severance offers. And so we have that explained to us through exposition, through the characters. So you and McGregor's Andy is arguing with Gloria and she's like, no, it's not a done deal. I'm working on this report. This is a profitable pit. It's profitable. I can like, that's what we want is to like know that it's profitable so we can keep it open. And she is very naive. And Andy knows, because he's seen it with these other pits, that he actually says they're gonna vote four to one to take the deal. And they know we will. That's why they give us such a huge amount. And she says, Well, are you gonna vote to, you know, to take the deal? He says, No, of course I'm not. But that's because I have principles, something like that.
SPEAKER_00:With that severance, there's no retraining or anything like that.
SPEAKER_01:No. It's just a lump sum. And Phil, the son, who works, you know, who does the side hustle as a clown. We see repo men come and take everything. The couch, the TV, the tables, like everything. Sandra leaves him and takes the kids, and there's a heartbreaking scene where she's on a playground with her kids, and her oldest son says, I hate seeing dad so sad. That's why he bought, oh, Phil buys a new trombone, which they cannot afford because his dad has said, like his trombone's falling apart. And his dad has said, You need a new trombone. You're a good tromboneist. You need to get a good one. Don't get a cheap one. Like Danny just doesn't see. He's such tunnel vision. Like the way he copes is just such tunnel vision on the music. And so he does it to make his dad happy. And the son says to the mom, the little boy says to the mom, like, he bought it for granddad to make granddad happy. And he says to his mom, I hate seeing dad so sad, but I'd rather I see him sad before I not see him at all. He says it in like a Britishism. Yeah. He's in in like a British idiom way, but it's basically I'd rather see him sad than not see him. And it's really like it's a powerful moment. And like, you know, you see it affect the character. So I think what I want to say about this movie is that I think Mark Herman was the script writer and director. And his first film was something called like the Bellboy or something that did terribly. Like it was a flop. It was a Dudley Moore picture. And it just did not do well. And he had a hard time getting a bite on a second film. This is the one that he ended up doing, and he did get some money for it. He got funding for it, obviously. And the thing that I think that he did really, really well, it's a well-written script, but also like he gave us the humor in like there are these little moments, like some of the ones that I named, without making it a farce. And he married the story of the music and this band to the pit closure. So that there was enough going on that it, as I said at the beginning, like it didn't feel like propaganda, although in many ways it is. And I think that was I I feel like that was actually really well done. Another key choice is that the band on which it was based, the colliery band, the grandpother Collier band actually does the soundtrack. Oh. So it's it's actually them doing the soundtrack. And many of the men who are members of the band are extras in the movie to sort of give a little extra like flair and reality that like really works. It really, really works. So I think those are some of the things in terms of like the storytelling that I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00:Do you know I and this is just based on your description of it. You said that a commentator said it's um emphatically empathetic. The fact that we have these men saying these things, and like Gloria shuts them down, but saying these things that are kind of gross, but that we are still empathizing with them. Yeah. Well, I think that's well, no, I think that's I appreciate that because at least if you're very online right now, if someone does something that is like gross and doesn't immediately apologize for it, it's like you're done sometime. Cancel, you're canceled. And so, like the fact that we can still be like, this is heartbreaking what's happening to you. This is wrong. Like, I really don't like the way you're treating Greek Gloria, and you really shouldn't be talking to her that way, even if she can handle it and has handled it fine. That's not okay the way you're talking to her. But you know what? That still doesn't make it okay what's happening to you and your town and the way that you that your life is being taken out of your control. And that's I just wanted to say I appreciate that. And some of that is, I think, the 30 years in between then and now.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. And I think the thing, part of what allows that is that this is really a picture of a culture. So it's not that like the dude who said Gloria Stitz is a horrible human being.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:He's a product of his culture. And we see him in other moments like be really sweet. We see these men like argue with their wives and also like be comforted back and forth with their wives. Like we see that throughout. And we see, like, this film does pass the Bechtel test. So aside from Gloria, none of the women who show up are sort of like what I'd call main characters, but that doesn't make them not important characters. And they do talk to each other about like their multiple named female characters, wives of the minors, who talk to one another about things other than men. You know, they talk about groceries and they talk about the band and they talk about like, what are we gonna do if the pit closes, you know? And they also have agency to the degree that they are able. Like two of the wives who are close friends, they see Gloria in the band uniform heading to the bus. And they're like, Oh, I see why they didn't quit when they said they were gonna quit because it's too expensive. And so they decide to go on the bus with them. And it's adorable. They become the cheering section and they like dye their hair purple because that's the color of the band. And like if like throughout, it becomes a thing. Where in the beginning they're like, they actually want their husbands to quit the band because it's expensive. And then by the end, these two women are like the biggest cheerleaders for this band.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I what you're you were saying about how like saying these off-color, like kind of sexist jokes is part of the culture. I'm thinking like that's part of what's the heartbreak of what Thatcher did to these towns is it's destroying these cultures. Yeah. And like these are cultures that don't make sense to you and me as like nice Jewish girls from Baltimore. Like, I do not comprehend these cultures and where, like, you know, Danny is dying from black lung and still not seeing it. And the fact that, you know, we want to keep the pit open, even though it's killing us, is not something that I can I can comprehend. But that doesn't mean the culture isn't valid or meaningful. It is still a culture, and that's environmentally and health-wise, and all of those things, I would prefer that we get our energy elsewhere. But if we could do that while retraining these people and allowing them to keep their town and their culture, that's what we do so that we can reduce suffering.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. So while I'm talking about gender here and the culture, I'm gonna layer on the storytelling again. Gloria becomes, she became a proxy for the audience for me, because she's the naive one. And so that was helpful, right? It gave a chance for you and McGregor's character to give us some exposition. But when I look at their identities and the storytelling and the way that that's done, like I have to question like, was that choice necessary? McGregor and Gloria are the same age. Andy, Andy and Gloria are the same age because they grew up together, right? And she got out somehow, went to university. Like she managed to get out of the poverty and desperation of Grimly, and has chosen to come back. And yet she is the naive one who does not understand what is actually happening here. And in some ways, that narratively that's necessary because she has to believe she's helping. She says she chose Grimly. She had her choice of what towns to go to to do the surveying and this feasibility study, and she chose Grimly because she wanted to be a help. And so narratively, that's important. And also making the only sort of primary female character the like super naive one, I feel like that reifies some of the ideas about feminine simplicity, or you know, like I'm gonna push back on that.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And I'm gonna push back on that because I tend to be naive. And it's it's it comes, I think, and it's not so much that I'm naive, it's that I take people at their word because of my ADHD. So, unless and until I have a reason to disbelieve someone, I believe them. So Gloria, for whatever reason, has not been given a reason not to believe her boss.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Fine. But I still think the story could have been told in such a way that it wasn't the only female character being the only naive one. Okay. Like we could have had, we could have had one of the other guys. There's a lot of guys and they have a lot of lines. Yeah. Like Harry, who I haven't even named yet, like could have said to both Gloria and Andy, you really think? Mm-hmm. You really think that that study matters? Like it didn't have to be from these two equal, except, like, they're not equal, but like the same age. If age is what gives wisdom, then they're equal. It didn't have to come from the man to the woman. It could have come from one of the other dudes who is older, who's been through this before, been through other strikes and whatever, or whatever. Like I think you're you're not wrong in that like naivete is is not necessarily a character flaw. But when it's the only female character, you know, in the sort of primary group, and she's the one that we choose to make be the naive one, I do think it reifies that sort of sense of feminine. I don't know what the word is.
SPEAKER_00:Wide-eyedness. The oh, honey.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yes. That like I would have rather seen, like, I think it could like she could have convinced Andy that no, she was gonna help save the pit. Yeah. And then one of the other guys has been like, oh, you two, you're children. And we still could have gotten the exposition and we still could have been proof, they still could have been proven right that the vote went four to one and all the things without having her be sort of singled out for her naivety.
SPEAKER_00:And I have not having seen this, so part of this is it's one of my my bug of bears because I like that I tend to trust people.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. No, I she's I don't think she's judged for her optimism exactly, but she is judged for her naivety. Yeah. Because it's her optimism that allows her to give them the three grand.
SPEAKER_00:I get that. And I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying, where the storytelling could have, and if it had been instead of a a man who wrote this, if a woman had written it, you're probably right. It probably would have gone differently. Maybe she would have been naive, but it would have been someone else puncturing the bubble, or it would have been Ewan McGregor might have been like, oh, you you really think so? Wow, okay, maybe. And then have someone else being like, oh God, she she convinced you, or something like that. No, I I get that. It's just the when people throw the word naive around, it tends to get my back up often because it's often used as a cover for someone else's cynicism.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, that is true. And in this movie, the cynicism is proved accurate.
SPEAKER_00:Is well earned. Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah. And the thing is, like what you were talking about with her, how she navigates the all-male environment so adeptly. Like she clearly Well, she grew up there.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And that's why that's part of my to me, that only bolsters my point about that. This is a culture, and it is a culture that she's from. She is fluent in that culture. So she knows how to navigate it. That I mean, yeah. Which is not the same. So I I'm I think where you were going with this is that she's savvy and smart. And so is this taking away? I don't think so, because the culture of Grimly is not the same as the culture of the NCB, where the optics is what matters. So, like, I I don't think the naivete is not accurate to. I don't think the naive naivete is out of character. What bothers me is that the structure of the narrative allows her to carry all of it. And she's the only primary female character. That's what bothers me about the narrative. Gotcha. I wish that the naivete that I think is essential for the narrative were carried. If it had to be carried by her, I wish it were carried, she shared the burden with somebody. Gotcha. Gotcha. So that it could not be accused of her like her gender.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That's what's bothering me about it.
SPEAKER_00:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00:I do want to talk about the all-male environment because I find that really interesting. Now you you mentioned it's because she grew up in that culture, but my work environment, which is interesting because I work by myself in my office, but because I'm in financial media, which is not dominated by men, but it is a it's it's a male environment. And I have had experiences where I'm in kind of an all-male environment. First time I was on television, I've never actually seen the clip because I don't want to. It was a uh cable access television program. It's uh Chad and his co-host Chad. I'm not making that up. And Chad interrupted me to explain my point back to me. But I have had to, well, not not even exactly learn, but I've navigating that kind of all-male environment. And I had a friend who saw me speak at one point tell me afterwards, like, wow, you handled the misogyny so well. And I was just like, I didn't even wait, what? I need you to like tell me more what you're talking about because I I don't even know what you're talking about. And I'm think I am thinking about that, was thinking about that when you were describing what what Gloria does. Because I feel feel like Gloria would say, like, if someone said, like, holy shit, you you like handled their misogynistic jokes so well, she'd be like, I did what?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think you're exactly right. Yes, I completely agree. That is, yes, that is a great metaphor for the way she navigates. Like, she's just she's a fish. Yeah. And it's water. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I want to make sure I get to this last thing about no, two more things. One about sort of art and what matters. And there's definitely sort of a like a juxtaposition between what can be taken away and what can't, in terms of like the art and the pit and the making living, but also it's complicated, right? And I think I love that the final scene we have. Danny gives this speech where he says throughout the movie multiple times, he said it's the music that matters. Like that is his mantra. And so the final scene for him to say, I used to think the music matters, but does it bollocks not compared to how people matter? After they've won. Like it could have been that sports movie where they win the big trophy and it's the happy ending. This was not a happy ending, not in real life. This actually happened to the Grimthorpe Collier bands where their pit closed a few days before they won this big national brass brass band championship. It's a bittersweet win at the best. And for this band, the real life band, actually, like side note, the band itself becomes a bit of a lifeline because of the movie and the notoriety that they gain from that, like they they continue to exist. They play all over the world, like they've won other awards. Like it has become a source, I hope, of income for some of these men. But I think I'm grateful to the movie makers for not sort of pretending, like for remembering the empathy that they were trying to engender here and not allowing us. Like we go out on a high note, but we also know it ain't high.
SPEAKER_00:It's not unicorns and rainbows. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and that's because it's a British movie, not an American movie. Right. That's true.
SPEAKER_01:And using the music to do that felt like really interesting in terms of like some of the things that you and I have talked about about the power of art and the legacy of art and like what art does in our lives, our art in the broadest sense. So that was really cool. I'm glad you said the thing about American movies because I want to read to you the like copy that was used to sell this movie, like on the DVDs. It says, This delightfully entertaining comedy treat features hot screen stars Ewan McGregor from Star Wars Episode One, The Phantom Menace, and sexy Tara Fitzgerald from Sirens. It's a critically acclaimed story about two old friends and ex-lovers whose surprise reunion turns their lives and the lives of everyone else in town hilariously upside down. Also starring screen favorite Pete Posselthwaite from Jurassic Park Lost World and the usual Suspects. Don't miss the fun of the laugh-filled comedy that entertained and captivated audiences everywhere. What?
unknown:Like what the actual fuck?
SPEAKER_01:Like when I first, so I read that in a link to it, the guy who does Cinema Geek or whatever it is. I don't remember. Like I read a commentator who was like, couldn't believe this. And I was like, he must have gotten that wrong. He must have gotten that wrong. So I went and looked it up and found an image of the DVD. And even today, when I rented it from, you know, one of the streaming services, the film poster is you and McGregor and Tara Fitzgerald like smiling at each other as if it's a freaking rom-com. And to be frank, like that relationship is kind of a side note. It's a subplot. The actual relationship that matters in this movie is Danny and Phil, the father and son, the band leader and the son who's in such bad streets. That's the relationship that is the core of this movie. This romantic relationship is not. I mean, it certainly doesn't turn everyone's life hilariously upside down. Like when I read that, the bad taste of my mouth is in so many ways, right? On but mostly in either what bad opinion Hollywood has of American viewers, or what horrible people American viewers are. Because either Hollywood is underestimating us or we're really bad.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's like, okay, the only way they can get us into the theater is to lie to us.
SPEAKER_01:And this was on the DVD, right? Like, I cannot wrap my mind around the utility of writing this copy for this movie. Like you and I have talked about like playing a game where you would write hilariously bad descriptions of movies like as a joke. This was not a joke, but this would fit in the what we were talking about when we were suggesting doing that. So, like I just wanted to share that as like that, like the meta commentary of that piece of writing on movie viewers' tastes or Hollywood's assumptions about movie movie viewers' tastes is like damn.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know, man. I don't know. Well, because it it seems like they think that we can't be interested in this film unless we're tricked into it.
SPEAKER_01:And that the only thing that interests us is romance. Like there's actually a very interesting story to very interesting it it is a funny movie, yeah, but it's also a really important story about and political and politics and work and fathers and sons and art and life. And yeah, yeah, all those things and culture, like it's yeah. So anyway, I I wanted to make sure I got that into the episode. Okay. Let me see if I can reflect back what we talked about.
SPEAKER_00:I think when you asked that, like, does Hollywood have a low opinion of us, or are we really horrible people? I think the answer is yes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think you might be right. So this movie actually maybe didn't belong in the podcast because it is not stupid shit, but well, none of it really no, that's the whole point. That's the whole point, right? Okay, so this film about a pit closure, a coal mine closure in the early 90s in England, really some of the things that I think the movie makers did exceedingly well were to give us this, in the words of another commentator, emphatically empathetic film that really has a very strong political message without us, at least I did not feel sermonized to. I really felt like I had a story. It didn't feel like a sermonizing or a propaganda, even though it is to a certain extent, both of those things. Part of the way it did that was to layer in these very real stories about real people, I mean, fully formed characters, especially the father and son in Danny and Phil. But all of them, like even very sort of minor characters, have fairly like we we kind of know them. And that is really, really remarkable to have such a huge cast of people that we meet and feel like we actually know a little something about all of them. Like there are no cardboard cutouts in this film, which is kind of remarkable. I think there we talked a little bit about gender. This this film does pass Speckdel test. It's also about a culture that was very like segregated by gender, where the dudes did one thing and the women did others. And so we get that in the culture. And so the one woman character who has to navigate this all-male environment, she does it very deftly, in part because she's from the culture. Like, I you talked about moments when someone like applauded you for navigating misogyny really well. And you were like, wait, there was what? Point that out to me. Because, you know, when you're a fish, like you don't see the water, and that's the misogyny is what she swam in. And you pointed out too that we see that happen, and yet we still have empathy and sympathy for these characters, which is in some ways refreshing in today's environment where people can be canceled for mistakes. On the gender point, like we spent actually some time talking about naivete. And I think that you push back about naivety being something to be judged for. I don't disagree with you, but this film does judge Gloria for her naivete. And the fact that she carries that by herself, though it is essential to the narrative, I bristle at a little bit. I wish that it had been written in such a way that she didn't have to hold it all by herself, that she could have sort of borne the weight with someone else, maybe Andy, maybe someone, another character. It wouldn't really matter. But to have her be the only sort of primary female character and also the naive one, like creates an equivalency that makes me bristle. We talked about the importance of art through hard times and the point that this movie makes, and the way that actually making music and the band as a piece of the storytelling is part of what allowed it to not feel like sermonizing. And to also sort of ask us to think about things, about legacies and what makes life worth living and what lives on beyond us, and all of those questions. It's also because it was about coal miners. There's all kinds of questions in 2025 that remain about the environmental impact of coal, about the impact on the miners themselves, which we see in the movie, as Danny is coughing up coal dust and clearly dying. And also, these 250,000 workers were given no alternative. They were given a lump sum of money and then, like, good luck, which is not sustainable. And then finally, I brought the marketing copy for this film that was presented to North American audiences, which what the actual did I forget anything?
SPEAKER_00:We talked a little bit about Margaret Thatcher and like just the background about how why she was closing these pits and it was to import coal from other countries for cheap. Which is just wowza. I like I've I've heard about like Alan Moore and how V for Vendetta was really about the Thatcher years. And like I I knew intellectually that people really hated Thatcher, but I don't didn't really know or understand the complexity of it. This is helping. Yeah. This is helping.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, when I read that this morning, because I was trying to better understand like the economics of the pit closure, and when I read that they were gonna be that the plan was to import coal, which I assume they did. So it wasn't a move away from fossil fuels, but actually just yeah, it's oh, it's heartbreaking. Whew. Anyway, it's a great film. If you haven't seen it, folks, I I highly recommend it. It's really, it's a it's a good film, and the soundtrack is really great brass band music and some really powerful performances from these actors. So it is not a rom-com, though. Don't go in thinking it's a rom-com.
SPEAKER_00:So what are you bringing me next weekend? So next time I am bringing you my deep thoughts about the 1989 Batman film.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, the first one with Keaton.
SPEAKER_00:With Keaton and Nicholson, the Burton film. Kim Basinger.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it was Kim Basinger, that's right. I was thinking it was, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:All right.
SPEAKER_01:I'll look forward to that. Yeah. See you then. And you know what? Actually, I'm also gonna say, folks, we forgot to say some stuff. We're gonna end recording now and then start recording again of the shit we forgot to say, but you can only listen if you're a patron. So head on over to our Patreon. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon. There's a link in the show notes, or leave a positive review so others can find us. And of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com. Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head?