Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Comedy Podcast

Grosse Pointe Blank: Deep Thoughts About Dark Comedy, Going Home Again, and If Killing the President of Paraguay with a Fork is Forgivable

• Sister podcasters raised by 80s and 90s movies: Tracie Guy-Decker, lover of animation, Muppets, comedy, and feminism & Emily Guy Birken, storytelling nerd, mental health advocate, and pop culture aficionado • Episode 117

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Yes, I did go to my high school reunion. It was just as if everyone had swelled.

On this week's episode, Emily revisits the ultimate high school reunion film, Grosse Pointe Blank. Rewatching John Cusack's charming and hilarious performance of professional killer Martin Blank made it clear to her that this is one of the movies that you can either enjoy as a dark comedy with a second chance romance and a happy ending, or you can dig into the moral, ethical, and mental health implications of Martin's "moral flexibility," but it's a little difficult to do both. But even while questioning the cultural commentary (or lack thereof?) of a comedy film about a hardened killer, the Guy sisters find a lot to love in the movie's humor, banging soundtrack, examination of masculinity, and exploration of the importance of connecting with your past. Also, apparently even paid assassins want to unionize.

If you're ready to give this comedy a shot (but don't shoot anything!), put on your headphones and take a listen!

Tags: deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, comedy, movies, pop culture, comedy podcast, romance, cultural commentary, mental health, psychology, john cusack, film, movie reviews, classic movies, fiction, society, storytelling, women, feminism, soundtrack

This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus content, live zooms with Tracie & Emily, discounts on merch, and early access to Deep Thou​​ghts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls

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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.

We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.

We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com. For our work together, visit guygirlsmedia.com

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SPEAKER_01:

And so he goes, just as Grocer's trying to kill her father and rescues him, because their father's out for a jog. And so he grabs him, pulls him into the car, and says, I was supposed to kill you, but I'm not. And it's either because I'm in love with your daughter or because I have a newfound respect for life. And meanwhile, Grocer is in a van behind him with a bunch of his like union assassins going, like, that punk either is in love with that guy's daughter. He has a newfound respect for life.

SPEAKER_00:

Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit. Because pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1997 comedy Gross Point Blank with my sister, Tracy Guy Decker. And with you. Let's dive in. Tracy, I actually don't know if you've seen this film or not. I have not. Really? Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Do you have anything in your head about it? A little bit. So, like, actually, a friend of mine recently, like, I was talking about the podcast, and he was like, Oh, have you done Gross Point Blank? And I was like, I haven't seen that one. And I mentioned it to you, and you were like, Oh, I love that one. So, what I know is that an assassin comes to his tenure reunion and shenanigans and sue. Mm-hmm. That's what I know. Yeah. Yeah. So aside from the fact that I reminded you of it because of my friend, why are we talking about it today?

SPEAKER_01:

So this film came out in April of 1997. That was my prime watch every movie that came out years. Oh, I was in London. That's why I didn't. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. And it actually watching it again last night, I was really interested to see the number of parallels with the fact that I know that I saw it with my high school boyfriend and the assassin who comes back for his 10-year reunion. He had abandoned the love of his life, his high school sweetheart, on their prom night. He disappeared on their prom night and had not seen her for 10 years, but had been obsessed with her. Like he'd had he had recurring dreams about her for the entire 10 years that he'd been gone and like really was had missed her the entire time. And so this was a seminal relationship for both of them. Like it really screwed them both up that he had left her. And so there is something in that too, because this, like the high school boyfriend that I saw it with, not that I knew it at the time, was like an important relationship for me as well. So and there's uh I saw it when I was 18, and I didn't have the perspective of an adult looking at watching it as a high school senior looking at people who were 10 years older, and now as someone who's much older than that, looking at, you know, not quite 30-somethings going to their high school reunion. It's very, very interesting. Yeah, yeah. So those are all things that I found fascinating to watch again. And so that's all part of why I wanted to talk about it. And then I just loved this movie when I saw it. I know I saw it more than once. I saw it in the theater, and I'm sure I saw it a couple more times. It has a phenomenal soundtrack. It is so good. And it's also just charming and very funny and kind of darkly funny, but also just plain funny. And I love that kind of like dark humor. And John Cusack, who plays The Assassin, is just delightful. And then Joan Cusack plays his secretary. Interesting. Slash personal assistant. And she is she plays kind of like Debbie from Adam's Family Values, where she's so sh sunshiny and dark at the same time. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And that their chemistry, because you know, obviously they're siblings is just off the charts, adorable. So there's just so much there. And then the romance between John Cusack and Minnie Driver, who plays his lost love, the girl he left behind, is also off the charts amazing. Like that there's it's there's a lot to love in this movie. So that's why I wanted to revisit it once you mentioned it to me. I was like, oh yeah, that movie was great. And this is one that uh, for the most part, I feel like I I'm I'm glad to revisit. So I do want to kind of talk a little bit about, you know, some postcards from the destination, want to talk about flexible morality, want to talk about there are some arguments that John Cusack's Martin Blank is his character's name, makes about what he does for a living. So I want to talk about that. About does he have a point? There's some really interesting stuff about toxic masculinity, even though we didn't have words for that in '97. And so I want to talk about nostalgia and romantic love. And I want to talk about forgiveness and what is forgivable if a redemption arc is possible for someone like Martin Blank. I also want to talk about reunions. Like, why do we do these things? Yeah. So since you haven't seen it, I'll kind of catch you up. I'm gonna try not to. There's a lot of shenanigans that ensue, so I'm gonna try to shenanigans ensue the uh synopsis. Okay. So we meet Martin Blank. He lives in Los Angeles now. We meet him in the midst of a job on the phone with his personal assistant. And so he is his sights on the person that he has been hired to take out.

SPEAKER_00:

Like he's on the phone while he's holding the rifle and looking through the freaky.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And so his assistant Marcella is saying, I just got this in the mail. Your high school reunion's coming up. And she is so bubbly. He takes out his mark, and just to show how nutso this is, the person he took out was a cyclist who had a gun who was there to take out another person.

SPEAKER_00:

So he assassinated an assassin? He assassinated an assassin. Or hit a hitman. I actually don't know what the difference is between an assassin and a hitman. I don't except maybe the like level, like the hierarchy of their targets, the status of their targets. Anyway, sorry, that's a tangent.

SPEAKER_01:

He kills the sleep killer who was gonna kill somebody else. Okay. And so the important person who had bodyguards all around him are like, you know, trying to clear the scene. And while that happens, from behind the important person had been coming out of a hotel, someone dressed as a bellhop comes from behind him and kills the important person.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, so Martin had been protecting that man and he dies anyway. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And the bellhop guy is played by Dan Aykroyd, Mr. Grocer, who is an acquaintance of Martin's. And they end up meeting and have this very funny scene where Martin is on the phone with Marcella and she's like, client's very unhappy. He's like, Well, I'm not happy about it either. I was hired to take out one target, not two. And he's like, I know it was Grocer. Get Grocer on the line. And they're on the phone, and Grocer's like, So where are you? And Martin's like, I'm in Budapest. And he's like, Oh, yes. And then Grocer's car comes up and they're still claiming they're in different cities. And then they approach each other like sideways because they don't trust each other. Long story short, Grocer invites Martin to join his uh assassin's union because these sorts of things happen all the time. And if they were to join an assassin's union, they wouldn't be in competition with each other and they'd have more communication. It would be like a babysitter's club for assassins. Got it. And Martin says, no, I'm a lone wolf. And Grosser basically threatens him. Martin goes to Miami for his next job, which goes badly. He was supposed to make it look like a heart attack in his sleep. The man moves while Martin is trying to administer a poison, and so he ends up having to shoot him. So it does not look like he died in his sleep. The client is very unhappy about that. And so they say, if you do another one as a freebie, we'll call it even. And Marcella encourages him, says, Hey, this is fate because the one they want you to do as a freebie is in Detroit. And then you can go to your reunion in Gross Point. And he's like, I don't want to go to my reunion. And she says, I went to my high school reunion. And this is this is one of the things that has stuck with me for what is it now, 28 years. She's like, it was great. It was as if everyone had swelled. So he takes the file for the mark and he goes to Dr. Oatman, his therapist, who's played by Alan Arkin. Dr. Oatman says, I'm not actually your therapist. Because as soon as he found out that Martin was a professional killer, he's like, I can't be your therapist anymore. He was coming for several sessions and finally told him what he did. And he's like, I can't be your therapist. You know, I can't conceal what it is you do for a living. I, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Martin makes a joke. He's like, Oh, no, no, it's okay. You know, like I trust you and blah, blah, blah. And anyway, I know where you live.

unknown:

And Dr.

SPEAKER_01:

Oatman's like, see, see, that's exactly what I'm talking about. And Martin's like, I'm just joking. So that's where we find out that he is still thinking about Debbie Newberry, the girl he left behind at prom night. And he asks him, like, please give me advice. Should I go to this high school reunion? And Dr. Oatman tells him, Yes, go spend the weekend, get back in touch with who you were 10 years ago. Don't kill anybody for a weekend. And Martin says, okay, I'll give it a shot. And Dr. Oatman's like, no, no shooting. No, do not give it a shot. So we see him arrive in Gross Points. We see him kind of charmed being back in his old hometown, which clearly he has not been to since he was 18 years old. We hear Debbie, she is now DJ for Radio Free Gross Point. And she is the reason why this soundtrack is so good. She is playing an all 80s lineup for the Points High School reunion. And so we see him drive by the radio station, which maybe in small towns, smallish towns, they have this, but it has a window where you can see her like look out. So, like K-Bear Chris in the morning. Yeah. That's exactly what I was thinking of. Yeah. So Martin stops by the high school and he runs into his old, I think, English teacher, and they have this adorable interaction where you get a sense of just how freakishly intelligent he is and charming. I mean, we've already seen how charming he is, but just um amazing. She says, Oh, so where are you heading after this? And he's also like kind of charmed to see the high school. And he's like, Oh, I'm going home. And she acts, she reacts a little strangely. He goes back to where his old house was, and the house has been torn down and it's now a mini mart. Oh. And so he goes in and he like freaks out at the guy behind the counter. He's like, How long have you been here? And the guy's like, we're gonna double shift. I don't wait. It's very, very funny. And so he gets on the phone to Marcella and he's find my mother. And so his mother's in a nursing home. She clearly has some kind of dementia or something like that, and clearly has not been well for a while. And she said, I talked to your father. He's like, Well, I think that must have been pretty difficult. And he then goes to visits a gravestone. And his father passed away three years after he left. He starts running into people he knows. He runs into his old friend Paul, a childhood friend, who is delighted to see him and who is now in real estate and takes him along on a house showing. And it begins where he tells the truth about what he's doing. Paul's like, Oh, I'm in real estate now. What are you doing? He's like, professional killer. And uh people were like, ah, wow, uh, does that let you travel much? Or, you know, like people just don't believe him. So it reminds me of in Lucifer where Lucia will be like, Yeah, I'm the devil. And people are like, uh-huh. So meanwhile, we see that Grocer was the one who had originally been contracted to take the mark that is now Martin's job. The freebie that Martin's doing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And Grosser is pissed off about it. So he contacts, I think the CIA, but he contacts someone in government. He contacts some spooks. Lardner and oh, I can't remember the other guy's name. Anyway, they're played by Hank Azaria and Todd Freeman. Oh, and says to have them kill Martin. So they go to Gross Point, all three of them, so that when the government agents see Martin take out the mark, because the mark is the hits on him because he is a whistleblower for something. So he's um under government protection. Yeah. But it's not a big enough deal that the government has him in witness protection, but they do want to take out the hitman. So we see them following Martin around. Martin shows up at the radio station, and Debbie is like overwhelmed to see him. At first, she's like, Uh, shake my hand. And then she's like, It's been 10 years, where have you been? And then they kiss, and like it's really clear that they like really loved each other. And then like he freaks out and leaves, and then he turns around and comes right back. And so on the air, she like dresses him down and says, What should I do, Gross Point? How should I handle this person who left me high and dry in a$700 dress in 1986? Which I meant to look up how much that is. Actually, hold on a second. I will do just that. That is a$2074 dress in$2025. That's a lot of money for a lot of money for a prom dress. So left her high and dry on prom night with not a word, disappeared, no one knew where he went, no word, nothing. And now he just waltz back in. So she's doing this all on the air. She's doing this all on the air. She's taking calls. What should she do? And so she's lived in Gross Point her entire life. People call in, and so one person says, okay, he should grovel, you know, make him wear the dress. He doesn't sound remorseful at all. And he keeps like trying to cover the microphone. He's also very uncomfortable with his back to the door and like switches seats with her and stuff like that, and saying, like, can we go someplace private to talk? And the government agents call in and start asking very pointed questions, like, why is he here? He still has not looked at the dossier. He ends up leaving and she's very off kilter. He then clocks that there is another assassin in town who appears to be following him. Besides Grocer? Besides Grosser. He calls Dev uh he calls, excuse me, Marcella and asks her, like, can you tell me about all these people? Because he clocks the government agents, and then ends up meeting with Grocer, like, at a diner to just be like, okay, what's going on? Finds out from Grosser that the additional hitman is a, I think his name is Felix. He was hired because a hit that went that it went fine, except there was a dog that got involved by accident that was not Martin's fault. There was something people were playing with dynamite, and the dog was a retriever and it retrieved the dynamite. And the dog belonged to a millionaire. And so the dog died. And the millionaire blamed Martin. And so now Martin has a hit out on him because of the dog's death. Dog's death. Yes. And Martin at that point, he's like, I would never hurt an animal, which feels kind of ridiculous considering the number of people he's killed. Yeah. Martin convinces Debbie to go to a bar with him and they actually talk. He says, Will you go to the reunion with me? I'll pick you up at seven. And she's like, that really seems like no. Fool me wants to shame on you. Yeah. And she never gives him an answer. When he speaks to Marcella again, she's like, I'm worrying about your safety. You need to get out of town because of this other hitman. And then the two spooks, they're there just until you've done the job, which they just they weren't fast enough to catch you doing it, right? You've already done it, right? He's like, nope, I'll do it tomorrow. And she's like, What are you doing? What are you doing? Because he still hasn't looked at the dossier. So he goes over to Debbie's house, that her childhood house, and like it's clearly an old thing. He knocks on the door in a particular way, which clearly was something from high school. And so she lets him in, and they have this adorable interaction that is again something from before. And she says, Okay, you can pick me up at seven, and now you have to leave. So the next day he is late to pick her up. He is calling Dr. Oatman because he's kind of freaking out. And Dr. Oatman is telling him, just breathe, just remember who you are, just breathe. And he leaves his gun at the hotel. He picks her up. It's he said he was gonna be there at seven, and he picks her up at like 7:30, or maybe even later. And he goes in to talk to her father. And her father is like kind of, you know, I'm glad you left my daughter. And she doesn't still live at home. She says something about how there was a fire at her apartment, so it's temporary, so she doesn't actually live there usually. I'm glad you left my daughter, this, that, and the other. But then again, he's so quick witted and so funny that like he charms dad and they have a lovely conversation. Dad says, Why don't you sit down and have a drink with me? And he says, No, we're already running late for the reunion. They go to the reunion, they dance, they meet with Ken. Who gives Martin a pen and says, make sure you look at the cap. And that becomes important later. Martin meets with someone named Tracy, who he's very excited to see, who has a baby, and he sits and she gives him the baby, and like he ends up like looking into the baby's eyes and like being like overwhelmed, like, oh my God, wow. He and Debbie go up into the nurse's office and are kissing, and she's like, something's not right, something's missing. And he's like, Wait, well, what is it? And she slaps him. She's like, ah, that's it. Welcome home. And so they, it's implied they have sex in the nurse's office. Then as they're leaving, she says, I'm gonna go say goodbye to some people. He's like, Okay, I'm gonna swing by my locker. Then there's a guy who's been really aggressive towards him, named Bob Desposito or something like that, who comes and is very drunk and wants to fight with Martin. And Martin says, What is this? Well, there is no we. There's there, whatever aggression you think there is between us, there is none. So what is it you really want? And Bob tries to read him a poem, and Martin de-escalates it, and Debbie is charmed by this. Meanwhile, the other hitman has come in, poses a as someone who didn't show up at the reunion, and comes and attacks Martin at his old locker. Martin is able to get the drop on him, kicks away his gun, and kills him with the pen that Ken gave him. It's an amazing scene. Yeah, it's an amazing scene. But Debbie comes as finds him as just after that happens and sees him covered in blood in front of that man, the dead man, and then freaks out and runs away, which is when Paul is like, Hey, where's our boy? And she's like sobbing and running away. And Paul comes and is like shocked, but ends up helping Martin cover up the body and then put throw it in the furnace in the bottom of the. So, whoa, friendship. Debbie comes to his hotel room and was like, okay, explain. And he's like, No, I was serious when I told you I'm a professional killer. He tells her a little bit more about it, about what it is he does. He's like, you know, governments do it all the time, you know, and rationalizes it. And she's like, You don't get to be with me. Don't you understand this? And so he's like, Okay, it's done. So next morning he opens up the dossier finally and sees who the target is, and it's her father. And he's like, Oh my god, dumb fucking luck. And he realizes that Grosser is gonna try to kill her father if he doesn't. And so he goes, just as Grocer's trying to kill her father and rescues him, because their father's out for a jog. And so he grabs him, pulls him into the car, and says, I was supposed to kill you, but I'm not. And it's either because I'm in love with your daughter or because I have a newfound respect for life. And meanwhile, Grocer is in a van behind him with a bunch of his like union assassins going, like, that punk either is in love with that guy's daughter. He has a newfound respect for life. So he brings him and Debbie into the house, and he's like, Look, on night of promo sitting in that random tuxedo, and I knew one thing for sure that I wanted to kill someone and I I loved you, and I couldn't do both of those things. And so I left and I joined the army. And like I was tested, and I had this certain found I had a certain moral flexibility. And they recruited me into the CIA and I worked for the government for a while, and then I went solo. So he has them like locked into the bathroom. He kills everyone except for Grocer. He and Grocer are talking back and forth. Grocer keeps saying, join my union. The two government agents come in, like guns blazing. He and Grocer kill the two agents. And then he and Grocer are like only two left. He manages to kill Grosser. He comes back up to where the bathroom is and he's like, You don't have to answer right now, but I love you and I want you to marry me, but you don't have to answer right now. And the father goes, For what it's worth, you have my blessing. And so the final scene is Debbie and Martin leaving in her convertible, saying, and she has left a pre-recorded thing for on the radio saying, sometimes you just gotta get out of town. And that's the end of the film.

SPEAKER_00:

Huh. It's a pretty high body count.

SPEAKER_01:

It really is. It really is. It's a delightful movie. It's tough. It's a tough movie in some ways. Yeah, where do you want to start? Let me start with flexible morality and toxic masculinity because there's I feel like they're connected. Okay. Because so Martin has this flexible morality. Like when Debbie confronts him at the hotel, he says to her, like, if I show up at your doorstep and he says this more than once, it's because you've done something awful. I'm not killing nice people. Except that her father, when we because he says, like, you've been a naughty boy or something like that, you know, if I've been sent to kill you. And then her father says, it's as they're coming in, he's like, it's leaking sunroofs. You know, that's all we get about what it is that he's a whistleblower about. So Martin's flexible morality started as, you know, he it was seen as an asset by the American government. And the thing is, his flexible morality, he did recognize, and what makes it somewhat forgivable that at least that he abandoned Debbie was that he recognized that he couldn't be with her because of what it is he knew he wanted to do. And that, okay, I think that his leave his abandoning her was forgivable. Okay, like, okay, I get it. And the fact that he but what's interesting to me is that he does not carry any kind of weird toxic masculinity because he has this flexible morality. I don't know. So the scene with the Bob Desposito, I'm getting his name wrong, but it's something like that. So Bob is like that guy who peaked in high school type guy. He has a BMW dealership and he's got like the porn mustache, and he's like the first time we see him, he's really mean to Martin for no particular reason and is like a little like overly not flirty, but just like weird to Debbie.

SPEAKER_00:

So he's just a it's like who has the bigger dick kind of a contest with this guy.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yes. And then when he runs into Martin, and Debbie isn't Debbie's there, but in the background, like Bob can't see her because he's very drunk. And he's like, Oh, you want to go? And he starts taking off his jacket to like fight with Martin. And Martin disarms him so easily and says, What do you think is happening here? There is no we, there's no aggression between us, and so easily disarms him. And he's like, What is it you really want? And Bob pulls out a poem, a poem, and it's terrible.

SPEAKER_00:

It's like, Oh, Bob has written this poem.

SPEAKER_01:

That Bob has written. This is like, when I feel sad, or like when I am sad, when I am blue, and Martin is like, This is fantastic, this is really outstanding. He starts to keep going. He's like, I wouldn't sell the dealership, but I think it's great. So why don't you skip to the last line? And Bob's like, oh, okay, for a while. That's the last line. And so, like, it what it's so amazing to me because like Martin doesn't have any issue with I feel like going to a therapist in the 90s was not something that manly men would have felt comfortable doing. He's uncomfortable with the fact that Debbie is talking about their stuff on the radio, but not because he doesn't want to talk about his feelings, just because he doesn't want everybody to know it. And then he like disarms Bob so easily. But then there's that moral flexibility, and I'm like, is that why he doesn't show these toxic masculine traits? It's so weird.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't even know. I mean, I don't know. I'm kind of not impressed. Like, he doesn't have to prove it because he knows. Like, Bob's like, I could kill you, but he's worried that he can't, right? He knows he could.

SPEAKER_01:

So I killed the president of Paraguay with a fork.

SPEAKER_00:

He doesn't need to like get in the pissing contest. Yeah. Because he already knows how big his piss is, or whatever. That metaphor dissolved. Um, but so to speak, it's just not necessary. You know, like when you're secure in your masculinity, there's no need for the toxicity of it, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Which I in some ways is directly related to the flexible morality because the violence is a part of the toxic masculinity or the threat of violence. So he doesn't need to threaten violence because he's living it all the time. I have to say though, I'm not like when you're talking about what is forgivable, I haven't seen this film, but I'm not convinced that the abandonment is forgivable. He couldn't have said, like, I'm freaking the fuck out. I'm really sorry. Like he just didn't show. He just ghosted her. Yeah. I'm sorry. That's not understandable, even with the I know I couldn't be with you and go to the fucking prom and then leave the next day. Well, yes.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm not saying when she finds out why, after having not known any reason why, I think that that is like because it wasn't about her, it was about what he was going through and then his with his mom. Clearly, whatever is going on with her like has been going on for a long time. Has been going on for a long time. Also, having just learned that he's been killing people for 10 years, and then like, yeah, I realized that's what I wanted to do. So I had to get the hell out right away. That could be like, okay, yeah, yeah, you wanted me to not have to deal with any of that.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

I guess so. I don't know if she doesn't just forgive it. She then like that's where I have like, I don't know. And even as an 18-year-old, I was like, I don't know if this earns the happy ending it gets. Yeah. Because I think him leaving her at 18, because also remember, you're an idiot at 18. Yeah, totally. Like him leaving her at 18, I think is forgivable. Because your brain's not done cooking.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

He didn't have anyone to talk to about it. He didn't have the perspective, he didn't have the understanding. Like, I think that is forgivable. I don't think him spending 10 years killing countless numbers of people and with the evidence just then that some of them probably didn't deserve it, like her father. Yeah. That I don't know. But not to be fair, but one of the things, like, there are several rationalizations that Martin gives her. He talks about what governments do, what soldiers do, what riot cops do, how if he didn't do it, someone else would. How all of these rationalizations. Now, none of those change the fact that he does it. And that isn't okay. Yeah. But it does bring up some really interesting questions like what do like when is it okay? Because he started off as a soldier and he was trained by our government because they recognized in him a certain flexible morality. And we see a conversation between the government agents because they get bored. They're waiting around for him to kill Debbie's dad. His name's Bart. They're waiting around for him to kill Bart so they can kill Martin. Because they don't actually care whether or not Bart lives. And one of them says, I wish he would just kill Bart so we could kill him. And he's like, Well, we can't wish that, because then we'd be the bad guys. And then he's like, Well, we should just kill him. It's like, well, no, then we'd be the bad guys. Okay, so we gotta wait for the bad guy to kill the good guy so that we can be the good guys by killing the bad guy. So, like the movie acknowledges how fucked up all of this is. Yeah. Cause it is, it's all ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And the moment when Martin holds his classmate's baby, and he says to her, like, because she he's like, How are you? What's going on? She's like, Well, I'm married now. And he's like, Yeah, and clearly have kids. And she says, Yeah, the first year is mostly just trying to keep him alive. He's like, I guess they're not very um, how does he put it? They're vulnerable to the elements at this age, or something like that. And she's like, Oh, I'm gonna get his bottle. Here we hold him. And he's like, No, no, no, I don't know. And she's just like, No, no, no. And so you see him hold the baby and they get an utterably adorable baby. And babies are adorable, but this baby is just gorgeous. And they got a moment where the baby's eyes like kind of light up, and this baby has like long eyelashes, and they get the baby like to smile. And then John Cusack, who also has very long eyelashes and very expressive eyes, like his eyes kind of light up, and you see this like awe and wonder in his eyes, and you see the moment where he's like, Oh shit. Oh shit, what have I been doing? And so from that, like the body count from that moment on is only people who are trying to kill him. So I don't like it's really like I don't know, I don't know if his happy ending is earned.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know how I feel about Debbie saying, let's get out of town, we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because that's all that she gets. That's all he gets is we'll go out of town, we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And Bart going, for what it's worth, yeah, my blessing. The history between them and the real, like early connection that you see, that's part of what was uh not tough to watch, but it was it brought some stuff up for me because I saw this with my high school boyfriend, and we had some of those same, like when he knocks on the door and it's a special knock and clearly something from their high school days. Yeah. And there were things like that that I had with my high school boyfriend. And there's uh she he says, You haven't given me an answer, and she's like, I'll give you an answer if you give me an airplane. And so what it is is where he lies on the bed and and she like he holds her up on his feet, puts her up on his feet, and so like things like that that were just like their intimacies is like that history and continuity of intimacy.

SPEAKER_00:

But there wasn't continuity because there's 10 years of gap. Yes. Like, I want to push you to stay on this, but go into for the postcards of the destination. You talked about nostalgia and can you go home again? And like, why do we do reunions, which I think are related. And like, I feel like this movie, at least about this romantic love, is saying you can go home again. But what's Debbie been doing for 10 years? She hasn't dated in 10 years. Like she actually was married and divorced.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

But let's go there. Cause like, you know, I smell bullshit, to be frank, in this, like, these are things we used to do 10 years ago when we were kids, and let's do them again. And oh, all the feelings are coming back. I smell bullshit. So can we talk about that a little bit about like nostalgia and can you go home again? Because it sounds like this movie also sort of said like you can't with the minimum where his home used to be. Can you unpack that a little bit from what's in this movie?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, like, you literally can't go home again. And he actually he calls Dr. Oatman and he says that. And he cannot talk to his mother. At first, she recognizes him and they have a conversation, but then like later in the conversation, she's like, Oh my goodness, you're a handsome devil. What's your name? So there's that aspect of it. And then the why do we do reunions? I wanted to talk about that. I have never been to a high school reunion, and I never will go to a high school reunion. Now, part of it is because Facebook means I don't have to. The people I want to stay in touch with, I'm in touch with. I just don't have any interest in being in a room with the people I don't want to stay in touch with. In part because I really don't want to see that particular boyfriend again. Honestly. And I don't want to feel the way that I felt in high school.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I don't have nostalgia for most of my experience. Right. The nostalgia I have is for things like the culture and the music and the movies. The movies, yeah. But there are things that I think you can reclaim like the connections, like the real connections that you had with people. So, for example, I was on a book tour in 2022, and I'm gonna tear up for my book Stacked with Joseph Sehai, uh, who was on the show a few episodes ago. And I didn't realize how much it meant to me in until we went on tour. Went to a few cities where some of my high school friends were who showed up who I hadn't seen since basically graduation. And that meant so much to me that someone who I haven't seen in 25 or 30 years came to see me because of something, a career milestone. And that feels like a connection I can go home to. Like that someone who cared about me when I was 17 cares about me in my 40s.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And that's beautiful, and that's what reunions are supposed to give us. Yes. Coming back to this movie though, the way that you have traced it out for me, like I'm wondering if all of the angst around like losing mom, she's still alive, but she's not mom, and losing dad, and losing whatever he was and had in Gross Point has been wrapped up in Debbie. Like the fact that that your friends showed up for you at that moment is so beautiful and is making you tear up now. You're not running off with them.

unknown:

True.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, you're not trying to build a life with them. You're just like, it's like a moment of, I don't think that is a going home again. It's sort of a like a reminder that home still exists in a different form. And it doesn't, you're not trying to be who you were then with them. And running off with them. I just, it feels disproportionate. And I think, and I have the benefit of not being charmed by QSAC's delivery, because it sounds like it is exceedingly charming. Oh, he is so charming. And I'm sure when I watch it, I'll be like, oh yeah, I would run off with him too. But in just the narrative, like thinking about the psychology and like what is happening and like what sort of makes sense kind of psychologically without the like layer of the charm. Like running off with Debbie. Feels like a compensation for I literally can't go home again.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's I was doing some reading, and the filmmakers actually had multiple different endings, multiple potential endings, because they weren't sure how to end it. And they wanted there was a movie called Miami Blues that had a similar feel to it, where it was a similar kind of dark comedy. Start Alec Baldwin and Jennifer Jason Lee, where Alec Baldwin was kind of like a narrative wealth, not killer exactly, but he killed a lot of people and he dies at the end. And they didn't want that. They didn't want it to be like he dies at the end. But it was a similar kind of dark comedy.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

And so specifically because of Miami Blues, they didn't want a John Cusack to die. But it's also like you don't get to be with her.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's why he left in the first place.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Because he's all the he's all the more now. Because well, before he just was gonna go join the army.

SPEAKER_01:

He does say he realized at some point he saw something and he realized like there's something more to this. And you know, he's lost his taste for what he does, and there's more to this, and he wants to explore the world more. And like he is changing and he wants to change with her. And it has never like when I say that the continuity is for him, like for him, it's never been anyone but her. She has moved on, even though she's stayed in in place.

SPEAKER_00:

All the more so, though, because like you and I both know 10 years of pining about someone, the person for whom you're pining just has the same face as the real human being. They're not the same person. There's the Debbie of his imagination who has either, you know, stood stayed static or potentially been embellished by his imagination on a pedestal. Yeah. In ways that the actual flesh and blood Debbie did not. Like that's I still call bullshit on continuity.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Yeah. You know, this is before uh because they were class of 86. So this is before he could have kept an eye on her.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. All right. Before we wrap up, but you had mentioned that you wanted to talk a little bit about like worker solidarity in this. So I wanted to ask you about that. Like, is this about the union?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. So when Grocer and Martin are shooting at each other, when the government agents throw open the doors and start shooting at them. And so Martin and Grocer for the first time are on the same page, turn and are shooting at the government agents. And once they are both dead, Grocer says, Workers of the world, unite. And he's consistently using kind of like union language about what it is they're doing. And in fact, it's actually not a bad idea considering what they do and how many snafuos there are.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you think the movie makers meant to sort of lampoon collective bargaining by doing that? By putting it in the mouth of this reprehensible assassin? I honestly am not sure.

SPEAKER_01:

Because, like, what happens consistently is unfair. I don't know. I really don't know how we're supposed to feel about it. Because on the now, the writer of this, so the screenplay was written by an unknown and then was like script doctored by several people, including Steve Pink, who I don't know, but he ended up having a small part, and then and John Cusack and one or two other people. The unknown said it in Gross Point. He's from the Detroit area, but he said it in Gross Point instead of his own hometown, which is Blue Collar, because he thought that it would be a like a better setting than his blue-collar hometown. And so I don't I honestly don't know. The thing that I think is really interesting is that I like I feel like Grocer's idea makes sense. Like that the way that things went down in that first Budapest is a mess. Although someone's happy. Like someone Yeah. Contract killing, I don't know. Okay. So and then the considering the fact that the government agents are also treated as not exactly reprehensible, but they're kind of ridiculous. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But it's that whole like we would be bad guys that they don't, yeah, they don't their morality is just as flexible.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, exactly. And you know, they're basically former colleagues of Martin's. Right, right. So it's a weird, it's a weird thing. And then the worker solidarity, so there is a point where the the other hitman ends up confronting Martin in the mini mart. Like he goes back there another time, confronts Martin in the mini mart. The guy who works behind the counter is playing a video game with headphones on, so he has no idea what's going on, even though shooting behind him. And the hitman sets a bomb. And so Martin is running out and realizes that the clerk has no idea, and he runs back in and gets him and pulls him out. And so that's a moment of like worker solidarity as well. So, like Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know. We are out of time, so maybe we can investigate this a little bit more in the shit we forgot to say for our patrons. But let me see if I can reflect back quickly to you some of the top things that I heard. I mean, we talked a lot about flexible morality, and actually you tied that to sort of the lack of toxicity in Martin's masculinity, which I think is right, because a lot of that toxic masculinity is about violence and threats of violence and who who would win in violence. And since Martin knows he would win, he doesn't need to lean on sort of toxic masculinity, which still doesn't paint a good picture of masculinity. Let's be clear. We also talked about sort of nostalgia and like whether or not you can go home again. And there's this movie sort of says you literally can't, but then also kind of pulls its punches by suggesting that this romantic relationship could just pick right up where it left off, even though there's 10 years intervening, which you said there was continuity because he's been pining for her all this time. I smell bullshit. It doesn't sound I don't buy it. I don't buy it. He's been pining for a woman who looks a lot like her, who is completely imaginary. We also talked a bit about what is forgivable. And I think part of where we implied, I'm not sure we actually said this outright, was like part of the reason the abandonment becomes forgivable is because it wasn't actually about her. It wasn't about rejecting her. It was about him like having a bunch of shit going on and being an unformed 18-year-old versus being a contract killer, which somehow does become forgivable. I don't know. I'm very confused by that piece of this storyline. We also talked about why we do reunions, and I think, and you told a story that made you tear up, which is why we do reunions, because there were we had real connections and life has taken us apart. Sometimes we can be reminded of those connections, and that feels really real. At the same time, social media being what it is today, there's less of a need because we see virtual versions of the high school folks we want to see all the time. Many of us do. Lastly, we talked a bit about solidarity. We have Dan Aykroyd Grocer sort of talking about unions all the time and workers of the world unite, which is I asked the question like, it are the movie makers sort of lampooning the idea of collective bargaining and worker solidarity by putting it in the mouth of this contract killer. We don't know. We don't know. Like there, it feels like a push-me-pull-me a little bit, you know, with the saving of the clerk, but also, you know, there's backstabbing and betrayal across colleagues. We are out of time, and I have no idea what I'm doing next time. Do you remember?

SPEAKER_01:

Don't.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm gonna bring deep thoughts about something next time, friends. Stay tuned for more. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon. There's a link in the show notes, or leave a positive review so others can find us. And of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com. Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head?