Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Comedy Podcast

Love, Actually: Deep Thoughts About Christmas Movies We Hate to Love, Creepy Cue Card Romance, and Early 2000s Fat Shaming

• Sister podcasters raised by 80s and 90s movies: Tracie Guy-Decker, lover of animation, Muppets, comedy, and feminism & Emily Guy Birken, storytelling nerd, mental health advocate, and pop culture aficionado • Episode 115

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If you look for it, I've got a sneaky feeling you'll find that love actually is all around.

This week, Emily brings her deep thoughts about the first of two Christmas movies the Guy Girls will be covering for the 2025 holiday season: Richard Curtis's 2003 romcom Love, Actually.

While both sisters thoroughly enjoyed the 10 interlocking stories of romance, parental love, heartbreak, dubious comedy, and even dubiouser feminism when the film debuted, Curtis's storytelling style hasn't exactly aged well. Not only does Love, Actually lean into the ubiquitous early 2000s culture of fat shaming despite Curtis trying write pointed cultural commentary about how ridiculous that was through the story of Martine McCutcheon's character Natalie, but the women in the movie are consistently treated as objects and prizes to be won, rather than fully formed people. But as Tracie argues, if Curtis believes in True Love, which can happen At First Sight (with the capitalization of those romantic ideals implied), then of course he paints himself into the corner of love based on physical attraction, which means young, slender, beautiful women--and it something we see repeatedly in his movies.

There are still plenty of laughs and poignant moments in this film, so no shade on anyone who puts this in their rotation of Christmas movies to revisit each year. But it definitely works as a time capsule for where we were in 2003.

If Christmas is all around you, put in your earbuds to get it out of your head for once!

Mentioned in this episode:

https://www.jezebel.com/i-rewatched-love-actually-and-am-here-to-ruin-it-for-al-1485136388

This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.

We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.

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SPEAKER_00:

So I have to tell you, my husband, who had not seen this movie, wandered in while I was watching this, and he's just like, What is this? And then, like, the music's playing. He's like, This music is annoying. And then he's like, What the hell? Colin Firth is in this. Why the hell is Alan Rickman in this? Like, Emma Thompson should be ashamed of herself.

SPEAKER_01:

Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit. Because pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 2003 Richard Curtis film, Love Actually, with my sister, Tracy Guy Decker. And with you. Let's dive in. Alright, Trace. So I found out that my spouse has not seen this movie because he walked in while I was watching it and was horrified. But I know you've seen this movie. So tell me what's in your head about it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I have seen this movie, and um I remember a lot of it. And I've seen it multiple times. And in 2003, you said, is that when it was released? I loved it. I really loved it. I loved there's several love stories that kind of intersect and don't. And I particularly enjoyed the one between Hugh Grant as the prime minister and sort of everyday girl whose name I don't remember. Martine McCutcheon is the actress. Thank you. I remember even at the time, like they make a big deal about how chubby this girl is. And I remember even at the time, like she's not. And even if she were, like, what the fuck is wrong with you people? The way they were talking about her. Like, it really bothered me even at the time. Things that didn't bother me at the time that now looking back, like even in my memory, I haven't seen it recently, like really creep me out. Like the guy with the cards, like for his best friend's wife. Um, ugh. And um, looking back on it, there's a an adultery love storyline. And I remember sort of feeling like we were supposed to, I don't know, understand why Severus Snape, is that the actor? Colin Rickman would why Rickman would do what he did, even though like Emma Thompson is like the coolest ever. So anyway, obviously I have a lot in my head that like mostly what I'm bringing to you in terms of the furniture of my mind is like a little embarrassed as to just how much I enjoyed it. Because looking back on it, even without re-watching it, just what's in my head, I'm like, oh, oh, oh, and I'm like cringing like the whole way. So yeah. But tell me, um, why are we talking about it today? What's at stake for you about love actually?

SPEAKER_00:

So I had a similar kind of reaction to it where I liked it the first time I watched it. And I liked it even after that. Like, you know, I've I've watched it multiple times. And I have friends who are like, I know it's problematic, but I still really like it. There's that kind of like, I feel like there's a Christmas gets a pass. Um, I feel that way about Christmas music. There's a lot of bad Christmas music out there that people are like, but it's Christmas. Which is why one of my scorching hottest takes is that uh Christmas music can be played or should be played from midnight on December 24th to midnight on December 26th, inclusive.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I'm with you.

unknown:

With you.

SPEAKER_00:

Which I said that last year I was taking an art class at uh the Milwaukee Institute of Art and Design, and it was early November, and there was a 17-year-old kid who was taking the class, and she's like, Oh, we should play Christmas music, and I said that, and she turned to me, she's like, It's okay to be wrong. I was like, I could be your mother child. No, and that's because there's enough good Christmas music to last that long.

SPEAKER_01:

And even the bad stuff you only have to hear once.

SPEAKER_00:

But anyway, so I think there's some of that. I think some of it is like the nostalgia of when we we consumed it uncritically. Some of it is the like the eye candy. I think some of it is Richard Curtis what he does, he does well. And so the first time you see it, you you enjoy it. And then like I think some of it I like didn't even realize until I read Lindy West's absolutely delightful takedown, which I will link to in the show notes. Where she, if you're not familiar with Lindy West, she is a just an amazing essayist. She wrote a book called Shrill, which is hilarious, where she re-watches it. And as she's watching, she's writing like, this is not how this works. This is not how anything works about everything. And her delightful takedown helped me see how screwed up so many things were, even though I had already begun to be like, yeah, this is not okay. This is not okay. That's not okay. Like, yes, Colin Firth is gorgeous, but that's not okay. So I have a feeling this might be a controversial episode because people love this movie, or people hate this movie, or people love to hate this movie, or hate to love this movie. But we're talking about it now because it's tis the season. We went back and forth over who was gonna cover this episode, and I think I won.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, we decided to do a two-barreled Christmas this time, so I'm gonna do Gremlins next time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So because as you said, it is intertwined stories. I'm not gonna go straight through because it's impossible. I'm going to basically explain the timeline. We start six weeks to Christmas, and then we go week by week up until Christmas. And then I'm going to introduce the various characters. And there's about 10 stories that kind of intertwine. I might skip a few. I'll just go the the major characters. Yeah, like the guys who go to America. Like, I don't think we need to talk about it. Well, except that I do want to talk about. Okay. All right, carry on. I felt that was so fucked up the first time I saw it. So we meet Billy Mack, who is an aging rock star who is no longer relevant, and his manager, Joe. Billy Mack is recording a Christmas version of the Trog's song Love is All Around, except it's Christmas is all around, and he's doing it intentionally as a like crass money grab. Why he's recording it six weeks before Christmas, no idea. Like you don't do the Christmas song six weeks before Christmas, you'd do it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Procrastinators unite. And he has um intentionally done this because he wants to have a number one hit to get back on top because he is now irrelevant. And so we see him like peppered through. And while he is not related to anyone else in the story, we do see other people watching him on talk shows and listening to him on the radio and stuff like that. And his goal the entire time is he wants to celebrate Christmas, like having gotten the number one Christmas song with Elton John, because Elton John is known for having lavish parties so that he's back on top as a major rock star instead of having like the lonely, like single guy party with his manager Joe, who he's constantly calling fat. And he does end up getting the number one single, but he leaves Elton John's party and goes to Joe's apartment because he realizes that Christmas is when you're supposed to be with the people you love, and he realizes that over the years that Joe is the love of his fucking life because they have been friends all these years and spent all this time together. And then he says, let's get drunk and watch porn. And honestly, classy. Classy, uh, his speech to Joe is kind of my favorite part of the movie. So Billy Mack is played by Bill Nye. We meet um Juliet, Peter, and Mark. Juliet is played by Kira Knightley, she was like 17 at the time. Peter is played by, I do not know how to pronounce his name, Chuotel Ijoophor. I'm sure that's wrong. I know that's wrong. And then Mark is played by, oh god, what is that guy's name? He went on to be on the zombie show. Anyway, so Juliet and Peter are getting married. Mark is secretly in love with Juliet and he has distanced himself from her, like pretends he doesn't like her because, as a self-preservation tactic, he is Peter's best friend. People think that Mark is in love with Peter because of the way that he acts, but no, it's he's in love with Juliet. She accidentally finds out because the photographer screwed up at the wedding. And she knew that Mark was taking video. So she shows up at his apartment to be like, hey, can I see the video? He had been dodging her. So she finds the video and it's all close-ups of her, not creepy at all. And so she realizes, like, oh, it's not that he doesn't like me, it's that he's in love with me. And so he like runs away. Later on on Christmas Eve, he shows up at the house and does that thing that you remember with the cue cards almost. Cue cards, yeah. Saying that basically to me, you're perfect, and I'll my wasted heart will love you until you look like this and like has a mummy. It's creepy. And then he goes away and she rewards him by kissing him on the lips and then goes back to his best friend, her husband, her husband. Her husband. Then we uh there's Jamie and Aurelia. Jamie is played by Colin Firth. Aurelia is Portuguese, and I have lost the name of the actress. Jamie attends Peter and Juliet's wedding without his girlfriend because she's sick. He comes back in between the ceremony and the reception to find that she is cheating on him with his brother. So he leaves and goes to the south of France where he has a house, and the uh woman who maintains his house has brought him a woman, Aurelia, who is Portuguese and speaks no English, and neither of them really speak French. So he falls in love with Aurelia because she's pretty.

SPEAKER_01:

Also, she likes tries to save his manuscript.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, which he's typing out in the open air. And it blows into the water and blows into the water and she takes off her clothes to go get it.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right, right. So she gets naked to save his manuscript.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, who could blame him?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and she's got a tattoo like right above her uh her tailbone. So, you know, that's classy.

SPEAKER_01:

Classy.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, you know, also whatever.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, it's classy that he's turned on by that. I mean, like, whatever. She can have a tattoo wherever she wants. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Then there's Harry, who is played by Alan Rickman, Karen, played by Emma Thompson, who is his wife, and Mia, who I don't know who she's played by, who is the secretary or the administrative assistant of Harry. Harry is the boss at company. It is unclear what the company does because they don't do anything remotely professional. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01:

It's not the point.

SPEAKER_00:

So uh yeah, when we first see them at work, Mia is coming in and said, Sarah's ready for you. Sarah is played by Laura Linney, and Sarah comes in for a meeting with Harry, and Harry's like, so when are you gonna jump the bones of Carl? The other guy works here. Like, that's I mean, he doesn't say that directly, but he says, so when are you gonna tell him that you want to get married and have all the sex and babies? Like, at work. Now, I don't know employment law in the UK. I don't, but I suspect shit like that is frowned upon. Yes. Anyway, Mia is young and very sexy and has made it clear that she really, really wants to get in Harry's pants. And like, you know, Alan Rickman was Alan Rickman, but WTF. So Karen is um a stay-at-home parent and is awesome, but she's also appropriately aged for Harry. Although Harry is older than Karen, and Harry is older than Mia. So Mia basically manipulates Harry into buying her, not even manipulates, she basically just tells him, like, I want something pretty for Christmas. And you can have anything you want if you do that for me. And so he buys her a necklace.

SPEAKER_01:

From Mr. Bean.

SPEAKER_00:

From Mr. Bean, yes. And uh Karen finds it. He comes home late. She's like, Where were you? He's like, Can't a man have any secrets? And she checks in his jacket and finds the necklace and thinks it's a Christmas gift for her. And then when she actually opens her Christmas gift from him and it's a Joni Mitchell CD, because they had had a conversation about Joni Mitchell, about how much she loves Joni Mitchell, she realizes that he gave it to someone else. She says to him later, like, What would you do in my situation when your husband has given a necklace to someone else? Do you wait around to find out if it was just a necklace or necklace in sex or necklace and love, knowing forever that your life is a little bit worse? And he says, Oh, I've been such a fool. And she's like, Yes, but you've made a fool of me too. You've made a fool of my life and all of my choices. Karen's older brother, which doesn't make any sense because Emma Thompson is older than Hugh Grant, who plays her older brother.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, actors and characters are not always the same age.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. But so Karen's older brother, David, who is the prime minister, the new prime minister, which also this is not how things work, because elections in England are in May.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, maybe it was a snap election. Like maybe it was one of those no confidence votes and the other guy lost.

SPEAKER_00:

Possibly. Anyway, so Karen's brother, new recently elected prime minister, is David. He is single and he has just started, he's just arrived at 10 Downing Street. He's introduced to his new staff, and Natalie, who is the catering manager, is played by Martine McCutcheon, who is a soap opera star in the UK. And so she is just adorable and like immediately charms him by saying, like, oh no, I thought I was gonna say like some shit. And then she's like, oh no, I've just said shit on my first day, because it's also her first day. So he is immediately smitten. The president of the United States, played by Billy Bob Thornton, comes and he is uh like a combination of Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. David catches the president trying to kiss her and then immediately goes to a press conference where David like basically cuts the America off at the knees, which is not how international diplomacy works. I mean I mean which was not how international diplomacy worked in 2003. He then also has Nina Sosania, who is um in Good Omens and you know Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

She plays Nina.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And also one of the sisters of the Chattering Order. Yes. Has her, who is his chief of staff, move her because now he's uncomfortable with her, because it's her fault that the president of the United States was trying to kiss her. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. And then she also has mentioned that she dumped her ex-boyfriend because he told her she was getting fat and he offered to have his Secret Service or whatever they call it in England kill him. Train killers phone call away. Cute. It's adorable.

SPEAKER_01:

That's adorable courtship right there.

SPEAKER_00:

Like it would be one of those if he didn't actually have those on call. That would be possible. Flirtation. I don't know. I don't know. On Christmas Eve, he is looking through the Christmas cards he received. He got one from her where she apologizes. She apologizes. For being the object of affection of a rival head of state? Yes, saying that she is his. Oh, how sweet. And so he goes off to find her. She had said that she lived in the dodgy end of Wandsworth or wherever it was. And she just said which street. So he's on the street knocking all doors. On every single door, like singing Carols. Because, you know, it's not possible that they keep, you know, employment records. Employment records. He's got train killers that he could call, like one phone call, but he can't Google. But he can't get Natalie's address. Yes, knock on doors. She's on her way to her her uh kid brother's nativity play. And so he ends up going with them. And he doesn't want to be seen there because then, you know, sleazy politician at a kid's nativity play. She's like, no, no, no. Well, this is my old school. I know where we can hide. They hide backstage, not realizing the curtain's gonna come up at the end of it, and they're kissing at that point. And so, whoo! Hi there. That would be an international incident. Well, I mean, she is British. It's the same.

SPEAKER_01:

It would still be an incident. It was the same play as the other storyline, too, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. You're getting to that? It was the same play that Karen and Harry's kids were were at, right? So there's Daniel and Sam. So Daniel played by Liam Neeson and his stepson Sam. At the beginning, Daniel's wife, Joanna, has just died. Daniel and Karen, so it's Emma Thompson's character, are very close friends. So Daniel is, of course, like grieving. And he's also, Sam is 11 years old, and he's just not sure how to be a parent to Sam. He's trying really hard, but Joanna was the one who handled the emotional stuff. And Sam is withdrawn and in his room all the time. And so he finally was like, okay, I gotta find out what's going on. Like, is it just mom or is there something else going on? Is he being bullied? Is it drugs? What's going on? And Sam finally confides in him and he says, I'm in love. And Daniel's like, Oh, thank God. I thought it was something worse. And Sam's like, worse? There's something worse than this all consuming feeling. Oh, puppy. Yeah. And so this is actually in some ways the best of the storylines, but not. Daniel really does a lovely job of parenting this kid and trying to help him understand and like navigate this love. The kid that he's in love with, her name is also Joanna, same as his mother. And so they are like watching romantic movies and talking about love and all of that. The problem is Daniel is not telling Sam to just go talk to her. So Sam comes up with this idea of like, oh, like women love musicians and she's singing at this uh concert. And you know, if I learn to play an instrument and play it perfectly, she'll pay attention to me. Which is just like, what? So he learns the drums and plays while Joanna sings All I Want for Christmas is you. And so, and then Joanna is moving back to America that same night. Christmas Eve, Christmas Eve, right after she finishes singing the song. And so that's what happens. And so they follow her to the airport and he misses her, and the flight is being called. And so Sam like runs through the airport, like and is like being chased by security, so he can go go see her. He catches her right as she's about to get on the plane, and she's like, Sam, and she's like, and he says, You know who I am? He's just like, Yeah, I've always known who you are. And it's like, if you had talked to her. And Daniel, why the hell didn't you tell him to talk to her? So there's that. There's Sarah, played by Laura Linney, who is in love with Carl, played by, I don't know, someone gorgeous, um, who is she is an employee at Harry's firm, where who knows what they do at Harry's firm other than get involved in each other's lives. She has been in love with Carl for the three years that she's worked there, has never said anything to him. Harry is getting way too involved and telling Sarah you should tell Carl that you want to marry him and have babies. Sarah keeps getting phone calls at all hours, where she keeps saying, like, hey, babe, no, no, I'm not busy. I can talk. Sarah finally dances with Carl at the office party, and Carl drives her home. They are kissing, and things are moving along nicely. And she gets a call and she stops in the middle of things and talks, and you hear more, and the person on the other end sounds a little off. Get off the phone, she explains that the person on the other end is her immensely ill brother, Michael. She and her brother came to England with their parents. Their parents died, and she is the only person left to take care of Michael. And so she feels obligated to answer his phone calls, and he truly is not connected with reality. And so he calls right back. And Carl asks, Will he be better if you answer? And she says, No. And he says, Then why don't you not answer? And she's like, I have to. And then he gets up and puts his clothes on and leaves. Nice. Which is like, what? What? She dodged a bullet. Yeah. Yeah. Then there's Colin who decides that because he's British, American girls will love his accent. And that's why he's striking out in America. He goes to Milwaukee. No, he's striking out in Britain. Thank you. He's striking out in Britain. He goes to Milwaukee, where immediately he goes to the nearest bar. He immediately meets three unbelievably hot women who instantly fall for his accent. They invite him home where they're joined by their fourth roommate, who's the hot one. And um I have I have things to say. And then there's John and Judy. John played by Martin Freeman. Uh, they're professional stand-ins for films. The film they're standing in for is some sort of porn. Porn? I don't know, because they are talking to each other. They're they're like very basic chatting about like traffic and what they're doing for the holidays and things like that. While super sexual things are happening around us. Yes. And so and they're very like shy about each other. And in they are the most healthy relationship of the film. And then there's an epilogue of a month later showing everyone arriving at an airport because it begins and ends in an airport. So I have to tell you, my husband, who had not seen this movie, wandered in while I was watching this. And he's just like, what is this? And then like the music's playing. He's like, this music is annoying. And then he's like, what the hell? Colin Firth is in this. Why the hell is Alan Rickman in this? Like Emma Thompson should be ashamed of herself. Oh. So let me start with the good part. There are some things that I think are kind of lovely about this, and that I think what Richard Curtis was trying to do, and that I think he did well, which is show that there are lots of different types of love. And like the voice over the beginning, Hugh Grant's David is saying is like love actually is all around us. And so while the focus is on romantic love, there are examples of many different types of love. So there is like the love between parent and child with Daniel and Sam. And then the fact that it's a stepparent is, I think, especially poignant. Poignant. Yeah. And even though I am like so frustrated that Daniel is not saying, like, you should talk to her. How about I have a party and you have all your friends over and you can invite her so that you have an opportunity to talk to her, which would be a much more healthy way of dealing with this, his unrequited crush. I'm really frustrated by that. 2003 Daniel is working with the scripts that men had, right, even as recently as 20 years ago. Right. So, like, he's like, when there's a night where Sam can't sleep. And so he's like, all right, you know what? We need Kate and we need Leo. And so they're watching Titanic. And they're talking about the love story in Titanic. So he's giving him what he's got. And he's telling him the story of his love story with Sam's mother. And like, you see, there's the connection between them. And like sometimes it's icky because he's saying, like, well, Joanna was the one for me. There's not going to be anyone else. But, you know, if there is, you're going to have to move out right away because we're going to want to shag in every single room in this house, including yours, which is so gross.

SPEAKER_01:

It's why would you say that to an 11-year-old?

SPEAKER_00:

It's so gross. And like, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew. But it's also like Daniel's doing the best that he can. Because we've also seen Karen say to him, like, you need to stop crying. Don't be a sissy. No one's going to want to shag you if you cry all the time. So like there's this like undercurrent of like that's the humor that they're swimming in. I judge Richard Curtis for using that humor, but I'm not judging Daniel for it, because that's what that's what he knows. Okay. So like there's that. Then there's um Sarah, Laura Linney's love for her brother, who can't reciprocate in a way she has to give and doesn't receive exactly. Although after Carl leaves, she gets up and goes to Michael's facility, and she gives him a gift, and they're they're having a conversation. And he at one point tries, Michael tries to hit her, and one of the nurses comes and stops him, and she says, Please don't do that, my darling. They have a conversation, you see them hugging. And so he gives back as best he can. But that love is so important as well. So you do see the love. And even like Karen and Daniel, the friendship between them, it's icky, like that humor. And like it's one of those, like I could call you like the greatest compliment you ever gave me was to call me a subversive bitch. Right. But but someone else can't call me that.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and also like the relationship between Karen and Daniel is not icky. The masculinity and the understanding of what is acceptable masculinity that informs that friendship that Karen's character reinforces with that joke is icky. Yeah. Like I feel like that's an important nuance.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Definitely. And then the love between Billy Mack and Joe is like the fact that he says, You're the love of my fucking life. When he realizes that the person he most wants to spend time with is this person he's been insulting the entire time. That really like I find that moving. I find that really moving when I watch it. And he makes a like a comment about how like there were young women there who are willing to do anything. And he's like consistently been crass and icky about women as objects. And women are objects all up, down, and throughout this film. Yeah. And this doesn't change the fact that he thinks of women as objects, but he recognizes that what's important to him is this person that he has created a life with, even though it is not a traditional life in any way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_01:

Honestly, in some ways, it actually reifies the women as objects because he realized that he doesn't need objects. He needs a human being. And Joe is a human being, and these women are not.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that gets me to the Juliet, Peter, and Mark. And watching it this time, because I do love romance novels and I read a lot of them, and I love me a good pining storyline. I like mutual pining. Yeah. As I was watching it this time, I was thinking, like, up until she shows up at his apartment, I kind of feel like, okay, has he done anything wrong? Like, it's not his fault that he fell for someone who's not available. It's not his fault he fell for his best friend's fiance's and wife. It happens, you know, like you can't help who you're attracted to, who you feel for. And what he has done is tried to distance himself from her, both as self-preservation and also to kind of preserve his friendship with Peter. The video he took at the wedding is kind of creepy. Like, why did he take that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And I think that the implication that I think we are meant to interpret is that he didn't even mean to. Like he was taking video. But because he was so in love with her, like he kept being drawn to her. And that that it wasn't like that's my recollection of that, is that it was almost like in the way that she is discovering, oh, you're in love with me. Like he kind of like the video is Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So it's not a creeper thing, it's just the process of discovery.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. That's I think that's the way we're meant to interpret it. Not that he's like taking this video so he can watch it later or whatever and do whatever it is that he does with it. But rather, like he was taking a video of his best friend's wedding. And because he's in love with the bride, like she ends up being the focus of everything. That's what I think we're meant to interpret.

SPEAKER_00:

So at that point, like all of that, and he's like, he's anguished afterwards. So like all of that I can feel for him. Like he's really in an untenable situation. But to then go to her and say, like, my heart belongs to you.

SPEAKER_01:

And even like the way with the cards, like tell him that it's Carolers, right? Like, so he's forcing her to have a secret from her husband.

SPEAKER_00:

And he also like it's again, it's all about looks because he says, Next year, I'm sure I will be dating these girls. And he has like taken pictures of like models. But in the meantime, just know that and just because it's Christmas, and at Christmas you tell the truth, you know, my wasted heart will love you until and then he has a picture of a mummy because it's about looks. Because that is that why he loves her? Because she's gorgeous? Because she's Kira freaking nightly. What? And so, and at that point it goes from like, this is understandable, like this is an unfortunate situation that he's in. That man, that sucks.

SPEAKER_01:

To like, boy, you're betraying your best friend, and putting the woman that you claim to love in a very uncomfortable situation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Which she then rewards him by kissing him. Mm-hmm. Ew. Ew. Yeah. So it's gross. It's really gross. And then that gets to like the look-ism aspect of it. So there's so much love at first sight because David sees Natalie and immediately, like, now she is charming in addition to being gorgeous. Like their first interaction is adorable because she's hilarious and charming. But it's all of a minute and a half. And he gets into his office and goes, Well, that's inconvenient. And like, okay, you're smitten. And okay, that's inconvenient, but like it's what? And then same thing with Jamie and Aurelia. Like he sees her body, and all of a sudden, like, oh, I want to like he ends up marrying her after an acquaintance of three weeks, during which time they have had not a single conversation because they don't speak each other's languages. Because that's a good idea. That ain't love. Yeah. That's lust. That is not love. And he had just broken up with the girlfriend he lived with.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because she cheated on him. With his brother. Yeah, that's gross. Like, no therapist worth their salt would be okay with that. So, like, what? It's just all of this undergirds Richard Curtis's idea that love is about looks.

SPEAKER_01:

It's interesting. I think Richard Curtis seems to think that there is like it's almost like when we did the Princess Bride episode and you talked about how literal you were and how that you thought there was like an actual thing that was like true love, capital T, capital L. Richard Curtis believes in that too. I think he genuinely believes that. And like you can feel it when it happens, and it happens really quickly. And if you believe in that, then it has to be based on looks. Because what else could it possibly be based on if it happens in a moment and you know it's capital T, capital L. It's like by taking on that idea, which is said in the mouth of the widower, Daniel, like she was my one. Like you back yourself, you paint yourself into a corner where looks are the only thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, except that then you get John and Judy, who because they can talk to each other while doing extremely awkward things, because they're stand-ins for like right, porn star porn. And Curtis included them because it's funny.

SPEAKER_01:

Are we meant to think, though, that that's like a love that built over time, or that they also had that feeling and just were too shy to act on it? I don't know. I honestly don't know. It's interesting too, though, because I think Curtis, at the same time as that he's painted himself into this corner, he recognizes that it's bullshit, at least to some degree, because he included the storyline with Alan Rickman and Emma Thompson's character and the secretary, right? Which we are definitely meant to see that Rickman fucked up when he followed lust and looks. Yeah. Like we are meant to judge him for that. Because Emma Thompson's amazing and age appropriate. Like, like I definitely think that we are we are meant to think he fucked up. We're we're meant to understand why he did. Like, because of course, when a young, pretty girl's throwing herself at you, you act on it.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that's but you shouldn't. That's another thing that I because I looked up the ages of the actors. So Hugh Grant is 16 years older than Martine McCutcheon. Colin Firth is 16 years older than the woman playing Aurelia. I think Kira Knightley was 17 and so was much younger than both the man playing her husband and the man playing Mark.

SPEAKER_01:

What about Rickman and the secretary, the admin? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I think that's was like uh more than 20 years. More than 20 years, yeah. So that is also in there, too, is like the youth and beauty aspect of it as well.

SPEAKER_01:

And it it's yeah, it's really there's a degree to which we it sort of seems like Curtis wants to push back on it while reifying it. The same with like the fat shaming with David's love interest. Like he's pushing back on it because she's beautiful and obviously he cares about her. It doesn't matter that she's got thick thighs or whatever it is that Nina says about it. But like it's one of those like cake eat it too moments, you know, where he gets to include this fat shaming and then claim that he's like pushing back on it because she gets the man in the end, but like, what the actual fuck? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and that's not the only fat shaming.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, because Joe is like, I know Bill Nai. Bill? Billy Mack, played by Bill Nike. Billy Mack like repeatedly calls Joe fat and slovenly and yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Aurelia's sister is fat and she talks about it in Portuguese. And then when Jamie comes back to ask for Aurelia's hand in marriage, he goes to her house and he meets the sister, and the dad is like, sure, and brings the sister out. And he's like, No, your other daughter. Because why would anyone want to marry a fat girl? And then there's a point, like they all go together to find Aurelia because she's a waitress at a w restaurant, so she's at work. At one point, like the sister's like, You're gonna let Aurelia do this. She doesn't even know this man. And the dad goes, like, shut up, Miss Dunkin' Donuts 2003. Nice. Yeah. And like the thing is, the sister isn't even that big. Like, she's what fat activists would call small fat.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And the girl, the woman who plays the I can't remember her name, but the David's Love and Love Interest isn't even small fat. No, she's she's straight-sized. She's just, yeah. She's just not not extra small. Yeah. Yeah. It's problematic.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it tells me, because people I've seen memes lately talking about like how fucked up the early 2000s were about body image and body shame. Which like I lived through it, and so of course I knew, but I wasn't a teenager. That's not to say I wasn't affected by it, but it I'm thankfully I wasn't 14. And yeah, it was it was a mess. So there were also some like asides that were some kind of gross. There was one point where Billy Mack is on a radio interview where he's just talking honestly. He's just like, Yeah, the song's crap. I'm just doing it to make money. And they're like, Oh wow, you're being honest. He's like, Yeah, I'll answer any question, honestly. He's like, Okay, best shag you ever had is Britney Spears. Now, in 2003, Bill Nye was in his 50s. Britney Spears was just over 20. Yeah. I mean, she's younger than me. And uh then he goes, Oh, I'm kidding. She was rubbish. Gross. And like, especially now that we're like in retrospect thinking about how we as a society treated Britney Spears, it's like, it's really awful. So, like, ew. It's just there's a lot in there. And that I'm reminded of that in terms of like the fat shaming because of the way that we treated Brittany Spears and her body and any woman who was who had the audacity to actually be a human being with a body and not just a plastic, yeah, you know, mannequin. Yeah. I do want to talk about like what Christmas means, because this is like a Christmas movie.

SPEAKER_01:

It's a self-consciously a Christmas movie. Yeah. Yeah. And we have the in love best man say at Christmas We Tell the Truth. Which what? We have I know I'm Jewish, but I didn't know that was like part of the holiday. Who said that? I actually think it's kind of the opposite. Like, oh yeah, this fruit cake's delicious. Yeah. Right. I'm like, don't we?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh yeah, I love, I love this sweater. Don't we? Well, and don't we don't we lie to children about like a fat beard man coming down the chimney? An actual fat man. Flying, flying deer.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00:

It's not it's not a truth-the truth-telling holiday. Not a truth-telling holiday. Yeah, what? That's something that I find really interesting. And because we're Jewish, we grew up with Christmas because our dad wasn't.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. I'm a sucker for Christmas. I don't celebrate it anymore because it didn't work with my life. Like, I love Christmas, but I am Jewish and I just, it just didn't work. But I am a sucker for like all the the sappy Hallmark Christmas stuff. And so, like, you know, the meaning of Christmas, the spirit of Christmas. So, like, I remember just being like, the first time I saw this, being like, and at Christmas you tell the truth. And I'm like, Yeah. And I'm like, but since then, I'm like, that's not a thing. It's not a thing. It's not a thing.

SPEAKER_01:

I do think that Billy Mac's realization that Christmas is about being with the people that you care about. Yes. That does seem to be in line with the spirit of Christmas, as I understand it. Yes. And like Sarah's story where with her brother.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, with her brother, where Carl's saying, like, will it make him better if you answer the phone? And she says, No. And he says, Well, maybe don't answer it and you know, keep doing fun, sexy stuff with me. And she's like, I can't do that. That's the meaning of Christmas. Because for her, being there for her brother is far more important than like extremely hot Carl head of design. Especially since, like, what the fuck is wrong with you, Carl? You know, like your dick can wait. Seriously. And that to me is because there's a lot of consumerism in this movie, too. Well, because Billy Mack is about he wants to sell this this Christmas song, and he's like clear that this is like bullshit. And Harry buys that expensive necklace. It's like 275 pounds, which I don't know the direct exchange rate, but that's expensive. So there's like a consumerism aspect to this film. But what is it that like Christmas really means? And like I feel like that's just another the at Christmas you tell the truth, that's self-serving. That's not real.

SPEAKER_01:

That's not totally self-serving. It's actually underscores your point that that he didn't do anything egregiously wrong until that moment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I don't want to spend too long here because we're really running short on time, but the consumerism piece of it, I think there is a degree to which the meaning of Christmas that Curtis is trying to give us, I put that in quotes, is trying to skewer that to a degree, right? Because we see how crass Billy Mack is. He's straight up about it. And even like the way, like when Harry buys the necklace, the Rowan Atkinson is the clerk and like has this ridiculous ritual for wrapping it, which is hilarious in my memory. And I think that is also meant to skewer sort of the status and consumerism of the purchase, right? Because and it's funny because Harry's like, just give it to me, just give it to me. Like, because it's slowing him down because he's buying it for his would-be mistress. But I think there is a degree to which the movie is trying to sort of skewer that consumerism and like gimme, gimme, gimme of that can come sometimes come with the holiday. I don't know how effectively it skewers it, but just noting, I was just thinking about that when you talked about consumers. Yeah. And the and the and the necklace. Anyway, any final points you want to make before I try and wrap us up? Milwaukee is not like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Those girls don't sound like they're from Milwaukee, and we're not that easily impressed. We're not that dumb. Okay. And that is not what the Milwaukee airport looks like. They didn't even have a recombobulation area. Okay. Well, in 2003 they probably didn't. We weren't taking our shoes off yet. Yes, we were, because the shoe thing was in 2001. The shoe bomber. Or 2002, rather, 2002. Oh, okay. Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_01:

Anyway. So I have thoughts about Milwaukee. Where Emily lives. So Love Actually, a movie we hate to love. So on the good side, this movie actually does portray multiple types of love, not just romantic love. End of list. That's what Emily said to me before we started. That's the end of the list of the things it does well. I don't think that actually is, but some of the things that are like there, we also see among that list like this poignant relationship between a stepfather, widower, and his stepson, which is he's doing the best he can. And also, like, why didn't you tell her to tell him to just talk to the girl? So, so that type of love is really beautiful, dated now. The relationship between the platonic relationship between that character, Liam Nesum Daniel, and Emma Thompson's Karen. Karen also is beautiful. Like this platonic relationship where they really seem to care about each other, which is informed by, I name this, like an understanding of masculinity and what is attractive in a man that is like expressed supposedly humorously by Karen in ways that just don't do not hold up. We see a lot of women as objects in this movie, like not just from Billy Mac, like just in general. Women are prizes and objects and sort of possessions to be coveted. We also see quite a bit of fat shaming that, like I think Curtis was trying, maybe believed at the time in 2003 that he was pushing back on that, but in fact, like really reified it in so many ways. Not just with the person of the Natalie, of Natalie, the prime minister, Hugh Grant's love interest, but also through Joe, so a man who was fat, and also through Aurelia, the Portuguese woman's sister, who, oh my God, why would anybody want to marry her? So there's a lot of fat shaming that's unfortunate in this movie. We got into a little bit of some interesting questions about like what actually is love and this idea of like one person being your everything that you can know immediately with a capital T, capital L true love, like in The Princess Bride, which if you believe that and that it happens super quickly, you kind of default to it being about the way someone looks, because what else could it possibly be based on? Which then Curtis painted himself into a corner that way with that kind of understanding. You push back on me on that a little bit with the Martin Freeman character, the two Stannins, which I still think maybe is is in that same category, just those are two very shy people. So they needed this other mechanism in order to act on this looks-based love at first sight, which in some ways gets pushed back against because we are meant to think that Alan Rickman made a mistake, but in other ways, just over and over and over again reified. This movie has you asking questions about like what does Christmas really mean? Like, what does this movie think Christmas really means? We have the best friend character with the cue cards that has been like spoofed many, many times in culture since then, who says that Christmas is about telling the truth, which no it really isn't. No, that's not what Christmas is about, at least not the way we celebrate here in the US. I think that was everything that we talked about. We had a brief, like little talk about like in that same vein of what Christmas means, that it doesn't mean consumerism. And that's why Mr. Bean is the guy representing the consumerism. But also, like maybe it kind of does, because there's like a lot about like money and gifts and stuff. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

So uh we talked a little bit about masculinity, yes, and talked about how it's a product of its time, just just in terms of masculinity and the fat shaming and even a sense of what courtship looks like, yeah, yeah, very much so.

SPEAKER_01:

And also like the prime minister of England could have found the woman's address. Oh, yeah, just he just could have. Yeah, he just could have. Yeah. So anyway, it was funnier to have Hugh Grant like singing good king whatever. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_00:

Also, Milwaukee.

SPEAKER_01:

Milwaukee. Milwaukee is not the way it's portrayed in this movie, folks. So just remember that. All right, well, we're gonna stay on this Christmas theme next week when I bring you my deep thoughts about gremlins. Sounds good. All right, talk then. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon. There's a link in the show notes, or leave a positive review so others can find us. And of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com. Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head?