The Land Before Time: Deep Thoughts About Grief, Animation, and How Much Scientific Verisimilitude We Require From Talking Dinosaur Cartoons

Let your heart guide you. It whispers, so listen closely.

This week, Tracie brings her deep thoughts about the 1988 Don Bluth animated film The Land Before Time. Although both Guy girls were a little too old to appreciate this staple of Millennial nostalgia when it originally came out, Tracie loved the hand-drawn animation, the way Bluth's storytelling offered a kid-friendly meditation on grief, and the pop culture trope of found family when she watched the film repeatedly while regularly babysitting dino-obsessed kiddos. There's still a lot to love in this gorgeous animation, even if you discount the technical skill of the artists. The story offers kids a framework for understanding loss and death and the long-term mental health challenges that can remain after experiencing grief. Considering how often children's movies don't allow their protagonists to feel sad for more than a scene, this is truly remarkable.

But as much as the animation doesn't talk down to its audience in regards to Littlefoot's grief over his mother, it also underestimates kids' ability to understand what's happening on the screen and their ability to handle anything other than a MegaHappy ending.

(Also: those dinosaurs lived millions of years apart. Tracie and Emily feel kind of hypocritical that they don't care.)

Throw on your headphones and join us for a scientifically inaccurate but artistically beautiful prehistoric adventure!

This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.

We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Opening, Premise, And Why This Film
• 3:48 Memory Check And Neurodivergent Coding
• 6:53 Plot Walkthrough In Brief
• 11:43 Grief As The Film’s Core Strength
• 16:53 Anti-Discrimination Intent And Its Limits
• 21:23 Dino Accuracy, Science, And “Who Cares?”
• 25:23 Narration Choices And Underestimating Kids
• 28:53 The Too-Perfect Ending Problem
• 34:23 Hand-Drawn Animation: Beauty And Blur
• 38:03 Found Family Tropes And Mixed Lessons
• 43:23 Recap, What’s Next, And Support

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:48

Because the reality is that you don't move on. You don't get over you it. You just get on with your life eventually. You do eventually get out of the footprint and start walking toward the Great Valley, but like you're still thinking about the deceased with you. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1988 animated film from Don Bluth, Land Before Time, with my sister, Emily Guy Birkin, and with you. Let's dive in. Okay, I don't think this was one of ours because we were kind of too old for it when it came out. I watched it many times when I was babysitting in grad school, which was my primary job, aside from being a student, while I was in graduate school. But what's in your head about Land Before Time?

SPEAKER_02: 1:59

So I do remember it. I remember the main character's name was Littlefoot. I remember liking that as a name. That's right. And I remember there was a leaf that his mother had given him and that he carried it around. And I remember there was a point at which, because he was a an herbivore, where it was like, eat the leaf! Because he was hungry. And I remember the animation being beautiful. And that's all I got. That's about it. Recently, someone said to me, and I wish I could remember the context where the conversation was, because I was talking about how I look at a lot of film and media that I consumed and recognizing like how it was neurodivergent-friendly without realizing it. And someone said, Oh, yeah, I feel that way about The Land Before Time now that you mention it, because there's a character who might be coded as a neurodivergent. And I thought that was a really interesting comment, but my memory of this film was so spotty that I had no clue as to who that character would be. So that I found really interesting. But that's it. That's all I got. So why are we talking about this film today?

SPEAKER_03: 3:20

So, listeners, we have a list of like a hundred plus pieces of media that are like on the possible list. And like every six to eight weeks, we sit down and we figure out what we're gonna do for the next set of episodes. And for whatever reason, this one jumped out right now. I don't actually have a good reason for why I'm doing it right now. In fact, as I was prepping, I was like, I should have done the American Tale if I was gonna do Don Blut. I should have done American Tale first, which I'll come back to American Tale. But so I don't know why right now, except that for whatever reason it jumped out at me when we were looking at the list of and thinking about what to do. As I mentioned, I saw this movie a lot as a young adult, 25-ish, when I was babysitting for some kids. I was like a regular babysitter in graduate school for kids who are now grown-ass adults, which freaks me out a little bit. But this was one, this was one of their favorites. And so we watched it a lot. And I just had this in my memory, like hand-drawn animation, like in a moment in our culture when animation was kind of at a low point, like starting to come back in the late 80s and early 90s, but really not what it is today for sure. And just remember I just remember really enjoying it and feeling like it was a more nuanced and interesting movie. And so that's why I put it on the list. I'm not sure it lived up to my memory in rewatch. But let me give you a couple of postcards from The Destination. It's a very short film, it's only 66 minutes of running time. Really? So it almost felt like a TV show. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's only 66 minutes. But some of the things that I think are interesting that I want to bring forward are this movie, especially for a children's movie, does a very nuanced job of portraying grief. And I think it gives some really useful lessons to the children watching about grief and about the person who is lost and how they're still with you in some sense through your memory and through your love, which I think is really nice. There's some well-meaning work to try and like combat discrimination that doesn't quite live up to, I think, what the movie makers were hoping for. There's also, I have that sort of nuanced picture of grief. And I want to contrast that with the lesson of a very happily ever after at the end of this movie, which feels totally disingenuous about a movie about dinosaurs. Just like that fundamentally.

SPEAKER_02: 5:39

There is something a little odd. Yeah. I feel that way sometimes reading historical like the happily ever after. I'm like, but they're all dead now. Set in 1850. They're all dead now.

SPEAKER_03: 5:56

Yeah. I mean, yeah. I want to talk a little bit about storytelling because this is a found family narrative. And so we get tropes, like each of the members of the found family of this found tribe kind of has a trope. And maybe we can get to your acquaintance who or friend who said this was there was maybe a neurodivergent coded one. And it does and doesn't hold up with these five dinosaurs. And so I want to talk about the ways that it does and doesn't. And also the storytelling of it. There are ways in which it felt like the movie makers kind of underestimated their viewers. So that's some postcards from the destination. Let me catch you up on the plot of this thing, which for once I think maybe I can be shorter than the actual runtime of the movie.

SPEAKER_02: 6:45

It might be equivalent this time.

SPEAKER_03: 6:49

Maybe. I'll do my best. I sort of think somebody was like, hey, let's make Bambi, but with dinosaurs. And that was like the pitch meeting. Cause so we meet Littlefoot, as you remember, who is the dinosaur that's not a Bronosaurus because that doesn't exist in the world. Actually, he's an apartosaurus. Now exist again. Okay, I can't keep up. So anyway, in the movie, they call themselves and everyone else calls them long necks. So fine, he's a long neck. And the narrator lets us know that like the only people, the only long necks left in their tribe is this newly hatched Littlefoot and his mom and his grandma and grandpa. So how mom had him remains a question. But I don't know how long long necks just ate their eggs. So maybe dad died. I don't know.

unknown: 7:42

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 7:43

Anyway, Littlefoot hatches and he's all the hopes and dreams of his tiny little tribe. And we learn that they are trying to make their way to the Great Valley because the weather is changing and shit is changing, and like all of their the food that they eat is dying. In voiceover, we learn that there are two kinds of dinosaurs. There are plant eaters and there are meat eaters. So Littlefoot, obviously a plant eater, and we meet several other plant eaters. Here's where the sort of well-meaning thing about discrimination happens. Littlefoot, while they're like they're walking and they walk as far as they possibly can every single day. And at some point, they Littlefoot ends up kind of playing with a baby Triceratops called Sarah. C E R A. For all the time I watched this, I thought it was S-A-R-A-H. So, but it's not. It's C-E-R-A because she's a Triceratops. And they start playing and they're having fun, but then the daddy Triceratops like stands between like his giant foot between the two baby dinosaurs and says, three horns don't play with long necks. Okay, fine. So terrible things happen. It's like a big earthquake and like the lane, like huge new mountains and chasms and stuff. And Littlefoot is separated from his grandparents. Oh, and meanwhile, I totally skipped. There was a Sharptooth, a T-Rex, who heard Sarah and Littlefoot playing. They started playing again despite the injunction from the daddy's Ryceratops. And the T-Rex tries to eat them. Mama Longneck intervenes and saves them, but she ends up getting bitten several times. And then after she's been bitten, this huge earthquake with like chasms opening up, she takes a big fall. Littlefoot is separated from his grandparents. Sarah is separated from her parents. Littlefoot goes, finds his mom. She's like laying down. He's you gotta get up. You gotta get up. She says, I don't know if I can. She gets up, she falls again. She dies. Her last words to him are, remember how to get to the Great Valley. And they're like specific landmarks. You have to go past the rock that looks like a long neck, go past the mountains that breathe fire, and you'll find the Great Valley. Great Valley is a mythic place where there's all the food you can eat, and there's water, and there's everything. It's just Valhalla. And that's where they were walking towards. She's never been there. Mama has never been there. She's told us that, but she believes that it's there. Because sometimes you can, some things you can see with your heart, some things you see with your eyes, and some things you see with your heart. And she sees that the Great Valley is in fact there with her heart. So those are the last words to Littlefoot. This baby is devastated. And this is where I say, like, I think the grief is really well done. Like he curls up in her footprint and is like too upset to do anything. Eventually, what gets him going again is he remembers her instruction. And so he keeps going. He gets up and starts walking. Along the way, he collects a little band of baby dinosaurs who have all been separated. Before mom died, while they were walking, they said there were going to be plenty of green food to eat in the Great Valley. And as they're walking, they see a tree and there's one leaf left on it. And she says, Oh, it's a tree star. That's what she calls the leaf, because it's got five points or whatever. It's like an oak as opposed to an almond-shaped one. And she says, There's so many of these in the Great Valley that we'll be able to feast on them. But she pulls it down and gives it to him. So he's been carrying it the whole way. And he had sort of lost it with the death and the everything, but kind of that's part of also the like mom is still with him. Like he hears her voice, and then he is reunited with the tree star, which ends up getting rolled and he's carrying it. Anyway, so along the way, on the way to the Great Valley, trying to find the way, he's supposed to follow the great circle, which is the sun, past the rock and the mountains and the whatever. So he picks up a little band of other dinosaurs. There's first he meets Ducky, who is a little amphibious dinosaur, who she's the one, they're the one. I actually don't know what gender they're supposed to be. They're the one who the kids I babysat for love the most because they respond, they respond to things. They always say, like, yep, yep, yep. I remember that. And it's like super cute. Yeah. Yeah. So there's Ducky who's very like cheerful. And then we see sadness in moments where no one's paying attention from Ducky. But they say they're the ones who they say, yep, yep, yep. And nope, nope, nope. And they're it's just they're just really adorable. Then they meet Petrie, who is a pterodon who's terrified of flying, and has a very odd verbal affect as well. Like he Petrie falls out of a tree and he's like, I fly. And they're like, No, you fell. You falled. And he has this weird, sort of like almost accented English. Eventually, Ducky finds an egg that's snoring and helps it hatch. And that this is Spike. He's a stegosaurus. Ducky names him because he's a spike tail. That's the kind of a dinosaur he is. They name him Spike. And he does not speak like at all. And it's possible he's the one that your friend thinks is neurodivergent coded. Maybe. Like, I think in 1988, he was just what we would have called slow back then. He almost reads, like, you know how Goofy's a dog and Pluto's a dog, but like Goofy's a human dog and Pluto's a dog dog. Okay. It's kind of like that, where the under dinosaurs are like people dinosaurs. Okay. Spike's a dinosaur dinosaur. Like he's more like an animal. That's the way it sort of reads. And then Sarah. So those are the dinosaurs, and they're making their way, and there's fights between them, and they have conflict, and they're trying to find food, and they like fall down hills. And along the way, there are moments of what I want to call like magic or like mystical, like I would almost call them like divine encounters that Littlefoot has that are not with God, but with his dead mom, where she leads him in one way or another. But we see sort of like light shining down from above, and like the music is oh, and it like we know that something magical is happening. It's always the mom. It happens several times throughout. It's like Inigo Montoya, Guide My Sword Father. Yeah. Yes. Kind of, kind of like that. Except rather than Littlefoot saying, Mom, help, there's a more of a proactiveness from the spirit. Okay. Meanwhile, the Sharptooth, who they thought had died, actually didn't, and is like chasing them. They do manage to kill him, and they think the Petri died while they were killing the Sharptooth, but he didn't. He survived. And like they all love each other and they help each other, and it's beautiful. And at the last minute, they're about all like Littlefoot's kind of ready to give up. And then he sees like a cloud that's sort of shaped like a long neck, and it's like mom or whatever. And he like follows it. It turns into like wispy smoke, and he follows it like around through some caverns and around the bend, and there's the Great Valley. And in the Great Valley are the other dinosaurs, like, in addition to his own grandma and grandpa, Littlefoot's grandma and grandpa, are the other dinosaurs' families, like all of them, like siblings and parents, and all of them are there waiting in this amazing Great Valley, and they live happily ever after.

SPEAKER_02: 15:34

Until the meteor.

SPEAKER_03: 15:36

I guess. Like the thing is, like at the beginning of the movie, you sort of think the meteor has already happened because shit's real bad and there's no food. And they're like in this great migration to try and find new food. So, anyway, I mean that's what happened. There's a lot more. There are actual like episodes that I could relay, but like I don't feel like I need to. Sure. I mean, so anyway, that's the plot. Look, it's only 16 minutes worth of recording, and I managed to get through a 66-minute movie. I'm proud of myself. Don't admit it to my accomplishment. It's okay, it's all you. It's not Don Blues, it's all you. Uh-uh. I'm just so good at summarizing. Anyway, okay, so let me start with the grief piece because that is the thing that I think is the core strength of this movie as storytelling. I think that we often underestimate children. Like part of me wants to like have a whole conversation about what is children's media, what is appropriate for children's media. I think offline, I don't know if we've talked about it on the show. You and I have talked about the ways in which like we consumed media that was made for adults that sort of taught us how to consume stories in ways that our kids didn't. And now we're needing to like help them figure out. I don't think we've talked about that on the show, but this movie, I think, is from an era where, in some ways, we actually expected more of our kids. And we like recognize that like they live through shitty stuff too. And so as a guide for how to deal with, maybe not how to deal with that's the wrong phrase, but as a as a model for like how grief shows up, as a normalizing vehicle for how grief shows up. I think this movie is really beautiful in many ways. The way that the that Littlefoot like is like curls up in her footprint as a way to try and stay near her. It's just really lovely. There's also a moment where he expresses a great deal of anger at her, like right after she's died. He's like, it's her fault. She should have known better. It was a sharp tooth. And like a little dinosaur who's called Ruder, like an adult, it was like, oh, honey, it's not her fault. Once he realizes what has happened, like it's just the circle of life. It's how it happens. And it's, he doesn't say it sucks, but he says it's hard, but it's not her fault. As mom was dying, she said, I'll always be with you, even if you can't see me. And that bears out. And so I think that in that sense, as like a model thinking about the deceased, this feels really like powerful and useful for children. Like the kids, those kids I babysat who are now grown-ass adults. Like, I'm actually glad that they have that in their the furniture of their minds for dealing with grief. That like Littlefoot's mother is she never leaves. She dies in the first few minutes of the movie, but she never leaves. She never leaves him. And she continues to be there to comfort and guide as memory, spirit, like however you want to, whatever metaphor you want to use for that, she's there. And I think that feels like something I'm grateful for that the kids who were consuming this now have in the furniture of their minds.

SPEAKER_02: 19:03

Well, I'm just thinking about how grown-ups so often want to shield children from hard things. And so we've mentioned our father passed away in 2013. My eldest was two when our dad died. And then two years later, we lost, we had three pets, and we lost two of them within two months of each other. We had our greyhound Obi and our cat Charlie. Obi, we had to put down in August, and Charlie we had to put down in, I think, November. And so at that point, my eldest was four then five. And because he remembered his grandfather and then the two pets, for the the year that followed, he kept saying, Well, if everyone dies and I'm the only one left. Because he was thinking about the our remaining pet, our cat, the dude, who's like, you know, our two pets died, and the dude was who was left. And that is something that happens in children's lives. They experience loss at a time when they don't have the experience or the emotional bandwidth to, or, or just the language to articulate what it is they're worried about. Because for him, it was the idea of being the only one left, was what scared him. And so, like this film, I think, could have been very helpful to him because for him, it was like the he really was focused on there was only one left. And that's where Littlefoot is. But he's not the only one left.

SPEAKER_03: 20:40

Right. Not only does he have his mom through the mechanism of memory and spirit, like he also makes a lot of friends who become his found family. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's also the case that I think in children's media, in terms of that shielding, there's like, I mean, dead parents are all over children's media. But usually it's sort of like we then distract, it's like one moment of sad, and then we move on. That's another thing that I feel like this movie got right. Because the reality is that you don't move on. You don't get over you it, you just get on with your life eventually. You do eventually get out of the footprint and start walking toward the Great Valley, but like you're still thinking about the deceased. You carry it with you. Yeah. You know, like the grief, exactly. And I think a lot of media for children that does include death doesn't recognize that. And so that felt, I don't know. I'm really like pleased and glad to be able to like share that with you. The other thing that I think the movie makers were trying to do intentionally, because that that feels intentional to me. That way of addressing grief feels really intentional to me. The other thing that I think they did intentionally that I don't think they did as successfully is this attempt to kind of like counter discrimination. Like we have these grown-ups saying we keep to our own kind, and then the kids make friends anyway. And then in the Great Valley, we learn at the very end that like they all worked together and they were a community and their kids, kids, and for generations to come, they were no, they continue to not have those rules. Right. The thing that feels off is that race is made up, but dinosaur species difference is not. And so that feels like a little off. And also, even within the universe of this film, there's still two types of dinosaurs plant eaters and meat eaters. There's the good kind of dinosaurs who we can be friends with, they're the plant eaters, but then there's the bad kind who we have to try and kill. So, like, even within the universe of the movie, okay, let's put aside the fact that race is made up and the different species are real. Like, you still didn't quite get there because you made this the dinosaurs into like the terrifying sharp tooth. Who knows if he even has a consciousness? He never speaks, he only growls and snarls and like bites people. And then we have the plant eaters who, aside from Spike, are completely anthropomorphized. And it's B. Are all of the voice actors white? I don't know. I don't know. I didn't look into that. I mean, just from the way that they sound, maybe I don't know. There's no one whose voice is like coded as like American black. But each of them has these like I flies. Yeah, so Petrie has the I flies. Sounds like English with an accent. Ducky has the yep, yep, yep, and nope, nope, nope, and whatever. Littlefoot is just a kid, probably a white kid. Sarah is tough and proud and like always right. She's kind of a jerk, actually. But I don't know. I didn't do that research. But anyway, I I appreciate the effort, I guess, is what I'm gonna say.

SPEAKER_02: 24:23

It's the well-meaning white person attempt.

SPEAKER_03: 24:26

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's and for 1988, I guess it was an important step in the right direction, but it did not hold up as successfully as the work around grief.

SPEAKER_02: 24:40

I was teaching. I taught to kill a mockingbird every year, and this was part of the curriculum. It was a story that we had passed out beforehand that it was about like the prejudice against the green-haired people, and you know, how I don't want my kids learning next to the green-haired kids, and like how it just passes on. And I taught it every year because it was part of the curriculum, but it was the same kind of well-meaning white people wrote it, and it was the same kind of like this doesn't actually say or do or mean anything. So it reminds me of that kind of thing, and I bet it was written about the same time, even though I was teaching in 2006 through 10.

SPEAKER_03: 25:26

Yeah, probably. Yeah, yeah. So okay, so let me move on to the I don't this is a thing that I don't know if it matters or not. But if you Google Land Before Time movie analysis, which is part of how I do my research, here's a behind the scenes folks. That's how I that's how I do it. I just Google. But if you do that, Google, what you'll get, in addition to a lot of people who just love the movie, is dinosaur nerds who have a bone to pick with this movie. Because because like dinosaur nerd kids grow up to be dinosaur nerd adults. I think they just know how to read the room a little bit better, and that's why we don't hear about it quite so much. But apparently the species that interact lived like millions of years apart, like totally different eras. Like one person said, we are closer to T-Rex than T-Rex is to the little foot apatasaurus species. So does that matter?

SPEAKER_02: 26:29

You know, that's so I don't know. Since you mentioned that before we hit record, I've been thinking about that. Because we are it's an animated film with talking dinosaurs. So no, it doesn't matter. Fuck that. On the other hand, when we're like, and like the thing is like dinosaurs are a thing that we care deeply about, that we know very little about on the whole, honestly. Like we're in our lifetime, our understanding of dinosaurs has changed greatly. And something that blew my mind when I first learned it was that dinosaurs had not been discovered as of the founding of America. So like George Washington did not know that dinosaurs existed, which like weird. Which is so cool to me. So there's a part of me, because like I think I take scientific discovery seriously in some ways, and like, well, we should be making sure that kids are, but on the other hand, this is how we introduce them to dinosaurs.

SPEAKER_03: 27:37

Yeah, I am torn as you are, because like on the one hand, I'm like, who cares? Yeah, it's a movie.

SPEAKER_02: 27:43

It's not scientific about bears. I wouldn't care.

SPEAKER_03: 27:47

On the other hand, like when I think about some of the like very early movies, like at like early movies that had like cavemen and dinosaurs interacting. I'm like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, so what's different, Trace? I don't know. I mean, maybe it's because the early movies, the black and white films, like involved humans, but I don't know. For some reason, like that really offends me. And like the dinosaurs who are from totally different eras, I'm like, eh, whatever. They're talking. Who cares? I don't know. Like, I I see the hypocrisy and the inconsistency in that.

SPEAKER_02: 28:25

Well, and it's so I mean, it's a meditation on grief that's different from dinosaurs and cavemen just duking it out.

SPEAKER_03: 28:35

True. That's true. That's true. Now, some of the dinosaur nerds, some of the good things they have to say is that the ways in which dinosaurs were social creatures, like that they moved in herds, is sort of accurate and it's nice for us to recognize, though they were not attentive mothers, probably in the way that the movie depicts. And the dinosaur nerds also appreciate that the movie really conveys like how dangerous it was just to hatch. And that was like a thing that like a lot of that's why they laid so many, because it was so dangerous in early childhood. Exactly. Exactly. So scientific veracity matters, doesn't matter. I think that we're like kind of sort of, but maybe not. Okay. So moving on. I want to talk about the storytelling and sort of underestimating kids. Like we've talked about it tangentially regarding grief. There is a voiceover, like a narrator who comes at the beginning and lets us know what's happening and tells us the thing about the two different kinds of dinosaurs and whatever. And then at the end, they make it to the Great Valley and we hear sort of the epilogue from the narrator. And I'm cool with that. That makes sense. It's part of the medium, and like I dig it. It's like there's a convention that that's a thing that we do. The narrator, though, makes an appearance, or not, because I don't see them, so like metaphorical appearance in the middle of the movie multiple times, including one moment where like Littlefoot and Sarah kind of argue a lot. They are like butt butt heads as to like who's the leader of this little band, and they disagree about which way to go. Sarah wants to go to the easy way. Littlefoot is pretty sure this hard way is the right way. And they split up, and then Littlefoot was right. And so we see a scene of Sarah kind of curled up by herself and like looking real sad. And the narrator, the voiceover, comes over and says, Sarah was still too proud to admit that she had been wrong. And I'm watching. And I'm going, like, the fuck? Why did you just need to tell me that? I can see it. And also, what's the very first thing that any creative writing teacher tells you? Show, don't tell. Like, you were showing me. You didn't need to tell me. And I know this movie was made for kids, but kids are not stupid. They're just kids. And so that was a piece that I was like, what you doing here, Don? You know, like this was a Steven Spielberg, George Lucas produced film. Like with those storytellers in the room, who thought it was a good idea to record that voiceover? And I don't know. I didn't do the research. Maybe in early tests, people were like, what's wrong with Sarah? And they felt that they needed to. I don't know. Did her dog just die? I didn't do the research.

SPEAKER_02: 31:35

Did she get a bad grade on her math?

SPEAKER_03: 31:37

But as a viewer, but as a viewer in 2025, I'm watching it going, yeah, duh. It's like, you didn't need to say that. So that was like a little piece that like I think is it's just a small piece about this one movie. But I think it also sort of speaks to just in general, like what we expect of our audience as storytellers, and sort of, especially if that audience is children. So it was just like a little moment that made me think about that. And on that same score, on that same score, these little guys have plot armor. And I think that's appropriate for children, right? There's a scene when they are defeating the T-Rex where Petrie kind of goes over the edge of the cliff, and the dinosaurs are pretty sure he's dead, like his friends. And then they're like they're going off and they're like all crying because they think Petri's dead. And Petrie climbs up onto the cliff that they think he has perished from, and he goes, You're leaving without Petrie. And like everybody's super excited and whatever. So great. I'm glad Petri had plot armor. This was for children. I think if it was made for adults, Petrie probably should have died, but it wasn't. But the thing that bothers me is this happily ever after that we get, this happy ending that we get. And like I made a joke, like it's disingenuous that it's about dinosaurs, and but that's kind of a joke, right? What really does bother me though, they made clear how arduous this journey was, like how far and how hard, and there's not enough food. And yet, when these little guys, who are all children, like finally make it, a hundred percent of their families who we didn't actually see die on screen are there. And this is one of those things that feels like it's underestimating children and feels like it's like protecting them in ways that actually are causing harm. I immediately thought of this episode of Sophia the First that I watch with my daughter when she was appropriately aged for Sophia the First.

SPEAKER_02: 33:40

Where a little background of what that I've seen an episode or two of it, but I don't know it that well.

SPEAKER_03: 33:45

It's a Disney TV show about a girl whose mom marries the king, and so she becomes the stepdaughter to the king. So she goes from being like just a village girl to being a princess overnight. And so it's like a it's a preschooler TV show that Disney's making right now, or not right now. My daughter's 13, so in the past 20 years they were making it. They may still be making it. I actually don't know. Sophia lives in a kingdom where magic is real. I mean, it's a Disney property. So there's one episode of Sophia the First where Sophia meets this flying horse who's like kind of a couch potato, but also wants to enter in this competition. It's like a race, it's like a chariot race with flying horses, and Sophia wants to enter it too. And so they like train together and they do the race and they win. I'm sorry, no. Like, that's not the lesson I wanted my four-year-old to get, right? Like, I wanted, I'm glad they trained and had fun. And but like I actually wanted them to lose, maybe even come in dead last and still think it will have been worth it because they made friends with one another, the horse talks, and because they had fun training, and because now they have this new skill, and next year they'll do better. But like they won. And that's kind of what this Great Valley with all of their family being there felt like. It felt like not just like unrealistic in the story, but also giving unrealistic expectations to the kids. Like, I think it's fine to be like stay the course, follow your mother's dead spirit, and good things will happen.

SPEAKER_02: 35:31

But not unicorns and rainbows and sparkles and everything. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_03: 35:36

Yeah. Perfect. Right. Like, I maybe some of their families were there. Maybe like even 60% of them. But the fact that it's like this perfect place, like the rest of the earth is like fire and brimstone. But this one valley, this mythical valley that actually exists, is all lush and green and beautiful. And do the sharp tooths not know where it is? So there's part of it's like the realism of the movie that like I cannot suspend my disbelief enough. But part of it is actually also the pedagogical component of it. What are we teaching these five and sick year olds to expect from life? And I don't want to kill people's dreams. That's not what I'm suggesting. But like there, it does feel like there's an opportunity to sort of also be grateful for what we do have.

SPEAKER_02: 36:26

Well, it the way you're describing this, it kind of reminds me of my antipathy towards the last book in the Chronicles of Narnia, which is analogous kind of to the rapture, I guess. I I don't know. I don't really because I don't know the Christian scripture. But in the last battle, what happens is all of the Pevency kids and other humans we've seen go to Narnia, which is coded for heaven, end up in Narnia for the last battle. But it's real heaven now, except for Susan, because she and it's because they were in a train crash, because they were all on their way to because there was this horrible battle going on in Narnia. And so they're all on their way to try to help in Narnia, except for Susan, because she stopped believing in Narnia because she's interested in nylons and boys and lipstick. So, like, oh how dare she care about things that people care about. And because of that, and then not only all the people who've gone to Narnia, but the Pevency's parents too, Pevency kids' parents too. So Susan loses in one fell swoop her entire family and her her uh her uh like family friends, because who all die in this train crash and they all go to heaven, and then in heaven, it's Narnia but better, and further up and further in, and it's like the grass is greener and the sky is bluer and everything is better, and it's a description of heaven that in a way feels too good. And also it reminds me of at the beginning of the show The Good Place, like, what about all the people who didn't make it? Don't worry about it, don't think about them. And that it's that same sort of thing where it's like, if it's so good, why isn't Susan here? If it's so good, why isn't Littlefoot's mother here? If it's so if everything's so perfect, why how do we keep the sharp teeth out? There's a right, we have to joy is not sustainable like that. There's just there's something in there, like it's not a lesson we want to teach our kids that yeah, it becomes an either-or.

SPEAKER_03: 38:37

I think that's you just said it, because in this movie, the Great Valley becomes an either-or, it's an all or nothing, and that's just not how yeah, life works.

SPEAKER_02: 38:47

And I want to adopt Susan and have her become like a social media influencer for makeup. Like I have this, yeah, I have like fan fiction, yeah, for her.

SPEAKER_03: 38:57

Yeah, yeah. So two more points that I want to make briefly, I think briefly. One is about animation. So I named that this was a moment when like the field itself, like from the highs of Snow White, when they first came, when Walt first envisioned a feature-length film, and it was a masterpiece, like a million masterpieces in each cell, to sort of much like sort of lazier style by the 80s. This film was an attempt to return to beautiful hand-drawn animation. And the backdrops are absolutely gorgeous. And the dinosaurs are adorable, and it's really fun to watch them the way that they move. There's one moment where Littlefoot is riding on his mother's back and he says, Have you ever been to the Great Valley? And she turns around to look at him. It takes a really long time for that big head to come around all the way to where he is, which is delightful. So I think in many ways, like they accomplished that. I think that's why it's so short, because it was like true, it was hand-drawn animation. At the same time, as it started, and I don't know if there's something in the like translation from film to video to now digital that loses integrity, but it's like fuzzy as I'm watching it streaming, at least in the beginning, in ways that like I found distracting. And I suspect it is because of that translation from film to video to digital streaming, but there's something distracting about it in the way that we receive it now, which is unfortunate. And it's interesting too, watching it with 21st century eyes and what we've come to expect from our animation. There is a crispness that we get with Toy Story and the Pixar films that's just not there from hand-drawn, which is part of hand-drawn's well, it's part of its charm. But because we've become so acculturated and accustomed to watching that digital, born digital animation, there's something like it, there's a little bit of cognitive dissonance and disappointment, which is unfortunate that I found in myself. Like from the moment it started, I was like, oh, it's kind of fuzzy.

SPEAKER_02: 41:17

I kind of I and I may be misremembering, but I kind of remember there being like water droplets.

SPEAKER_03: 41:23

Yeah, that's the yes. The initial credits are over, like an underwater with like bubbles.

SPEAKER_02: 41:31

Like water droplets on the leaf or something.

SPEAKER_03: 41:33

There's one moment when he remembers his mom where the water droplets come from the five points and gather into a little head. And I remember that being just absolutely lovely. Yeah. Oh, it's beautiful. It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02: 41:44

So, and the skill to make the water look like water. Yeah. Like water. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 41:51

And move and all those things. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And then the last thing I wanted to name before I wrap us up, or you add any additional things, is the sort of the notion of found family. Like I think this is a thing that we see over and over again. It's a trope. It's a lot of people. But it's one I think I feel like our dad really liked. Definitely. And I think the reason that we keep making these movies is because it's really appealing to us, especially Americans, especially like sort of post whatever bowling alone, like that phenomenon that that guy named, where as advertising and housing pushed us into these like much smaller family units of just the nuclear family, that often families of origin aren't super like fun or comfortable, right? And so I think there's a reason that we, as a culture, are so drawn to these found family stories. Something I found interesting about this found family, like we have these tropes of the two would-be leaders at Loggerheads and like the super anxious Petrie and the possibly neurodivergent Spike, who is almost like a mascot for them. And then the cheerful, but actually also very sad and lonely Ducky. There are like tropes here that where we can recognize ourselves in one of them. And we see them sort of like there's a moment where again, Sarah's super stubborn and thinks she can do everything on her own. And so they do find some leaves that are like hard to get. And so the other four are like climbing on top of each other to try and get to the top because Petrie won't fly, remember? And she says, I don't need they get a whole bunch of leaves down. And they say, Sarah, come eat. And she's like, I don't need your help, I don't need anything. She starts like hitting her head against the base of a tree to try and get to shake leaves down. She does it like two times and nothing happens. And on the third time, as she goes to hit the tree, Littlefoot like drops some leaves around her. She doesn't see him do it. She thinks they're because she brought down. Yeah. And she eats them. She says, See, I don't need you. And like he kind of shakes his head. But that, like seeing those kind of interactions and like people taking care of each other. And then Sarah comes around eventually and like it's because they save her life. And like, really? That's what it took, Sarah. That's why I say she's kind of a jerk. Like, they save her life from the Sharptooth. But by the end, like she actually, when they find the Great Valley, she says, Littlefoot, you did it. Whereas previously, at every step of the way, I did that. Right. So we see sort of her embrace the found family and like that sort of coming around. Like, again, like we love that as a culture. And I don't know. Like, I wonder if that is one of those sorts of narrative patterns, like Beauty and the Beast, that is maybe doing us this a disservice where we're putting up with like bad behavior from our friends because we think that eventually they're gonna like come around and be the friend we want them to be. Like, I wonder if all of these found family, which I totally get why we want them, but if they like again, like create furniture of the mind that makes for unhealthy dynamics in the real world.

SPEAKER_02: 45:21

See, it's interesting because I feel like part of the reason why we like the found family trope is, and I feel like part of the reason our father liked it is because it felt like he needed found family because his family of origin didn't necessarily provide him the support he needed.

SPEAKER_03: 45:38

Totally. That's what I agree. I completely agree.

SPEAKER_02: 45:41

So there's this like healthy and powerful underpinning of okay, you're gonna find your family because your family of origin doesn't necessarily have your back. And then I don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 45:55

Yeah. I think what I'm saying is that these like movies with the trope with the loggerheads, yeah, reluctant member, the reluctant member, I'm saying that that maybe makes it so that we don't actually recognize them when we think that someone is a part of that found family who's gonna give us support when they are not. That's what I'm suggesting. I completely agree with you. I think many people want and need found family because families of origin don't get them or don't support them or don't whatever it don't exist anymore. There are so many reasons, even just aren't enough. Maybe they're wonderful, but they're just not yeah, yeah. So, like I completely agree the need. It's these versions of it where it's the enemies to friends that makes me think actually, like, maybe that person isn't actually going to be your friend and you should not try to pursue them. Yeah, it's that's what I'm getting dynamic.

SPEAKER_02: 46:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 46:55

Yes. That that we see it in romantic pairings, but we also see it in these found family friend pairings. That I I'm just not sure. I'm just not sure that that actually is doing us a service, especially the people who need found family because they're family of origin outside of it though.

SPEAKER_02: 47:13

For the people who are watching and see themselves in Sarah.

SPEAKER_03: 47:16

Yes. That's fair.

SPEAKER_02: 47:19

I'm sure there are plenty of kids who are just like, I don't need anyone, and I'm too proud to say I'm wrong, who need an example of what it's yeah, what it looks like to come around.

SPEAKER_03: 47:29

Yeah, that that's fair. And like in kids. Yeah, I'll buy that. I wish she had come around for something lesser than having her life saved, but fair. Fair. I'll buy that. I'll buy that. All right. Let me see if I can. I'm actually really delighted that I had this much to talk about because I finished watching the movie. I was like, oh crap, there's not that much here. So let me see if I can remember what I said and what you teased out for me. So I started this at what I think is the movie's like core offering and the thing that it does the best. And that is it's the way that it addresses grief. The realistic way that it shows that grief is not a thing that you just leave behind with the deceased, but that you carry it with you. And the sort of gift of reminding kids that the lost one, the deceased, is still with you in your heart, in your memory, and maybe in some supernatural way, which it doesn't matter what you actually believe. I think the idea that they can have an active presence in your life even after they are no longer living, is a beautiful one that I'm glad that kids have. And also the normalizing of the fact that grief sticks around, that you don't just get over it. That feels also really important for the children who watched this in the late 80s and beyond. The thing that the movie makers tried to do that I don't think holds up as well is their attempt to kind of push back against discrimination, which they meant well. It's not terrible, but it also like the difference between racism and sort of the species who kept to their own kind is that race is totally made up. Racism is very real. The species, different species of dinosaur are actually different species who lived who like that's the other thing that lived more than a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02: 49:30

They didn't even live in the same time. So that's correct. And three horns do not fly with long necks because they don't live at the same time.

SPEAKER_03: 49:42

Because they don't exist at the same time. That is an accurate statement from Sarah's dad. It's not discrimination, it's it's not discrimination, it's scientific veracity. That's right. So the other thing though, even within the universe of this movie, is that there's still an us and them with the herbivores and the carnivores, which I mean fair prey, don't I don't expect prey to be friends with predators, but then maybe that's not the vehicle to talk about discrimination.

unknown: 50:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 50:13

So on the scientific veracity of it, I think we both had sort of a like complicated reaction to it. Like on the one hand, they're talking dinosaurs, duh, it's not scientifically accurate. On the other hand, why do we need to have these different species? And also, this is like the kids who grew up with this and love dinosaurs as a result are gonna be super disappointed when they learn there's no way Sarah and Littlefoot could have been friends, right? And I still, I'm gonna say it again, and I still see how hypocritical and inconsistent it is. I hate those old movies like from the early 20th century with the like pitted cavemen against dinosaurs. We didn't ex humans did not exist at the same time as dinosaurs. No. Your point that trying to tell a story about found family and grief is very different than who would win in a cage match. So maybe that is ultimately why I feel differently about the two. I don't know. I'm gonna have to think on that. We also talked about like when we're talking about what we're teaching kids, there's something about the sort of too perfect happy ending that feels not just like unrealistic, like it's not just about suspending disbelief. It's also about the either-orness of it that feels like a disservice to kids. And you brought, we brought in some other pieces of media to kind of compare and contrast. I brought in Sophia the First, which is another kids' movie. You brought in the Chronicles of Narnia and the final example where poor Susan is the only one who doesn't die in a horrible train wreck and get to go to heaven. But it's okay. It's not okay. But her last laugh is that she gets to be a rich and famous influencer, cosmetics influencer in the fanfiction that Emily Guyberkin will one day write. We ended our conversation uh talking a lot about found family and the reason that people, especially today, are so drawn to such stories. And we talked about how the danger in sort of the what did you call it, pursuer distance or pursuer dynamic that maybe is giving people not so great models for being friends with folks who they maybe should just leave alone. On the other hand, you pointed out some of them are the stubborn kids like Sarah who need to see a model for coming around. I still wish it were for something lesser than having her life saved. And then finally, in terms of thinking about not underestimating kids, I balked at the narrator making a metaphorical appearance in the middle of the movie to say things that like I was watching. Like I did not need a more explanation. I got it. Yeah, I got this. Duh. So that's what I have from the 66-minute movie. Thank you for going on this little trip with me. We will come back to an American tale, I promise. What are you gonna bring me next week?

SPEAKER_02: 53:14

I am going to bring you a movie I love to hate. Love actually, just in time for Christmas. Oh, yes, for Christmas. Alrighty.

SPEAKER_03: 53:23

I look forward to it. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon. There's a link in the show notes. Or leave a positive review so others can find us. And of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com. Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head?