Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast

Home for the Holidays: Deep Thoughts About Memory, Cringey Romance, and Why Tracie Can't Be Fooled Into Thinking BWI Looks Like O'Hare

• Tracie Guy-Decker, lover of animation, Muppets, religious allusion, fantasy, and feminism & Emily Guy Birken, storytelling nerd, finance writer, mental health advocate, and pop culture aficionado • Episode 112

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Well, that was absurd, let's eat dead bird!

Just in time for Thanksgiving, Tracie brings her deep thoughts about the 1995 "romantic" comedy Home for the Holidays. Although the dysfunctional dynamics of the Larson family makes for realistic and funny storytelling, the romance between Holly Hunter's Claudia and Dylan McDermott's Leo seems to imply that women are just lacking a handsome man's tongue down their throat, no matter what they claim. (To be fair, Leo was simply following pop culture expectations of romance of the mid-1990s, but his actions seem pretty gross when analyzing film tropes in 2025.) 

Still, the film offers lovely commentary on the nature memory, joy, and family connections. Tracie and Emily conclude that even the actions of the biggest asshole in the film--Tommy, played by Robert Downey, Jr.--make sense within the context of his family's homophobia. The naked polaroids ain't cool, though, dude.

Whether your family is more or less dysfunctional than the Larsons, throw on some headphones and listen in!

Mentioned in this episode:

https://womenshealth.obgyn.msu.edu/blog/memory-telephone-game

This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thou​​ghts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls


We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.

We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com. For our work together, visit guygirlsmedia.com

We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.

We are on socials! Find us on Facebook at fb.com/dtasspodcast and on Insta at instagram.com/guygirlsmedia. You can also email us at guygirlsmedia at gmail dot com. We would love to hear from you!



SPEAKER_00:

It's a trope, it's a stereotype. And I think we as a society ought to stop pushing back against it. Like even if you did make me laugh, which I don't think most of Tommy's hijinks are particularly funny, but even if they were, that doesn't erase bad behavior. You and I have talked about this, like as individuals. We do this and have done with boyfriends past. But even as a society, I feel like I like, I feel like we learned that from somewhere. I want us as a culture to start pushing back on that. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be talking about the 1995 film Home for the Holidays with my sister, Emily Guy Birken, and with you. Let's dive in. Now, you just told me before we hit record, so I know you haven't seen this film, but is there anything in your head about this film?

SPEAKER_01:

No, it's one of those like it's of a like a genre of films that I like the I think of I think I get it mixed up with The Family Stone, which I have seen, which has Sarah Jessica Parker in it. And that's about it, where it's like, I I just told you before you hit record, like if you told me this film was like the Mandela effect, it didn't actually exist, I would have believed you. That like people like made it up. There's a movie called Home for the Holidays, and they're thinking of the Family Stone or something like that. I don't know how I missed it because it was in the prime of my movie watching life. Like you, I because I was asking, when did this come out? Early 2000s. You're like, no, 1995. I'm like, how did I miss this? I saw every movie that came out in '95. So I got nothing, like absolutely nothing about this movie. Okay. So tell me. Now I know why we're talking about this movie today, but tell me, why are we talking about this movie today?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, right now we're talking about it because it's a Thanksgiving, one of the few Thanksgiving movies, right? We have lots of Halloween movies, we have lots of Christmas movies, but we don't have a whole lot of Thanksgiving movies. And this is in fact a Thanksgiving movie. So that's why we're talking about it now. It was on the list for us to talk about it now because I have this fond memory of it. I don't know how I did see it in 1995 when I was a freshman in college. I think maybe I saw it a couple years after on cable or something, but I remembered it as a sweet comedy with like a bunch of a sweet romantic comedy specifically, with a bunch of sort of like family drama around it. And it is a romantic comedy with family drama around it. I don't know if I'd call it sweet anymore. It's also set in Baltimore, which maybe also is why it sort of came across my desk to use the idiom. I don't know. It had been a long time since I'd seen it. So, and I re-watched it with a friend, and the actual romance like really bothered me this time. It's between the main character, Claudia, played by Holly Hunter, the love interest, Leo Fish, played by Dylan McDermott, at his super hottest haughtiness. Like he really brought it with the looks in this movie. Maybe that's was enough for me when I was in my like late teens, early 20s.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, we let me give you some.

SPEAKER_01:

We're nothing if not consistent here. It's true. It's true.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So let me give you some quick postcards from The Destination. I mean, I just did a little bit, but let me give you some quick postcards from The Destination, and I'll try and do a synopsis of the plot. This movie really makes me think about what we accepted in from romance in the late in the mid-90s. It also, in the person of Tommy, the character's name is Tommy, played by Robert Downey Jr., really is making me think again about what we forgive when someone makes us laugh. Which we have talked about both between us and also like on the show on air repeatedly, that somehow, like if he can make you laugh, the fact that he's being a dick gets overlooked. That is very much the case with Robert Downey Jr.'s character in this film. There's also a lot in this film about the nature of relationships and the fact that they sort of the tentacles that they have. You know, that you walk into a room with someone and all like a whole bunch of memories and crap comes with you. And this film really illuminates that, not to give insight, but to sort of witness it in a way that is really beautiful. I also want to talk about the nature of memories because of this film, because there's a lot about sort of like recording them. And then there's at the very end, like before the credits, there's some things that we know from the dialogue were not recorded, but it's as if we're watching old film of them. So there's something kind of interesting about the nature of memories and how we save them and who gets access to them. And then lastly, like this is just a weirdness. Like it's meant, she's Holly Hunter's character, Claudia, is meant to live in Chicago, but be from Baltimore, and she flies home to Baltimore from Chicago. But the beginning scenes that are supposed to be in Chicago, like I recognize, and they're Baltimore. And like, what's happening? What's happening with that? That's BWI. That is not O'Hare, it is not Midway, that is BWI Airport.

SPEAKER_01:

Is did it have those big red pillars? Yes, yes, yes, the red pillars.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Anyway, that's probably all I need to say about that. But okay. So let me see if I can give a synopsis. So the film opens with like very close-in of like someone's hands working, and it takes a minute to realize what's happening, but it's someone restoring an old piece of art. So, like using egg yolk to mix with the powders with a palette knife, and it's this old fresco. This is it's Holly Hunter. Holly Hunter is Claudia Larson, and she has this job at a Chicago museum, which is actually filmed in the Baltimore Museum of Art. And she's restoring this fresco and she's listening to music on our headphones, and she's like really into it. Her boss interrupts her, says he needs to speak to her in his office. He's acting real weird. She's like super like, oh, I just get lost because the angels just so her smile is so calm, you know? She's so calm. And he says, I have to fire you. We lost 90% of our federal funding, and I just can't afford to keep you. Which rang really different, maybe. Now that's yeah. Too soon, too soon. Anyway, and then she hugs him and like actually ends up like smooching him, like kind of he's there. And at first you're like, oh, are they sleeping together? But no, they're not, because he's like, Oh my god, I'm sorry, I shouldn't attend that. Weird. So she's in her car, she's like, it's cold out. She's in her car and sort of talking to herself to like get it together, like it's gonna be okay. And her daughter knocks on the door. Her daughter's name is Kit, played by Claire Danes, who was in fact 16 at the time she was. Right. She was right off of the coattails of My So-Called Life. So Claire Danes is her daughter and she's like, Let me drive. You're already late. So Kit drives her to the airport. She is not going with her to grandma and grandpa's house. As Kit is about to drive away, she rolls down the window and says, By the way, mom, I'm gonna have sex with Tommy or Tim. I'm gonna have sex with Tim this weekend. We're ready. I paid attention to what you said, like we're grown-ups. Like you see Claudia's face sort of fall. It's all the wonderful. Yeah, exactly. And the cop like makes her drive away. And this is the days before for cell phones. So Kit has given her the boyfriend's parents' number, like landline on a slip of paper. She's walking through the airport, her very fashionable wool coat falls off of the like bag or like crossbody bag, and we see it gets left behind. She's sitting on the plane, and the woman next to her is like very in her face, very nosy. She does one of the there was like a phone, which this is like a real throwback to those days. There was like a phone in the seat, in the middle seat that you could like use a credit card to make a call. It was like$5 per minute. It was super expensive. So we see her make a call. She gets the answering machine of her brother Tommy, and she admits kind of in tears a little bit that she, you know what happened? I made out with my boss. I got fired. I don't know what I'm gonna do. And kids probably having sex. And the nosy, and then she hangs up, she goes, that was moronic. And the nosy next seater goes, you know who's a moron? My son. Like it's so bizarre. Her parents greet her in the airport in Baltimore, although they never say Baltimore. I think like all of the stuff around it has said that it's Baltimore. And I think it is supposed to be Baltimore, but they never actually say that. Anyway, her parents greet her in the airport, and it they are played by Anne Bancroft and Charles Derning. So two like megastars, aging megastars, but megastars. And they're like adorable and nosy and embarrassing. Mom has brought an extra parka in case Claudia has lost her jacket, and she has. And so it's this very unfashionable like 1980s puffer coat, like long duster, like in a bright fuchsia. And so we just sort of see her kind of like being miserable in her childhood home. She says to her mom, I might change, I'm thinking I might change jobs. I don't know if this is the right place for me. And her mom goes, Oh, they fired you.

unknown:

Oh God.

SPEAKER_00:

So her mom's able to somehow like read her mind. So many shenanigans ensue. We think that the brother who's who she left the message for can't come, but then he shows up in the middle of the night with another man in tow, and he is a jerk. He the brother. I think he's supposed to be, he, the brother, is a jerk. The brother, Tommy, played by Robert Downey Jr., is just manic and all over the place. And when he comes into the house, it's the middle of the night, they're already like everybody's already in bed, and he sneaks into her bedroom and like throws the covers off and immediately like takes a Polaroid picture of her, like with the big flash, and she's like, what's happening? And then he like lifts her shirt up and like puts the camera under her shirt and takes another picture, which, like, what the actual fuck, dude. Anyway, she thinks that the friend who's in tow is his new boyfriend, and she keeps saying, What happened to Jack? Jack was his boyfriend, who the whole family apparently liked. And so she's like a little upset that like there's this new guy here. We meet her sister, Joanne, who I think is meant to be the middle sister, because we hear mom tell Claudia that Claudia is her oldest and her smartest. So Joanne comes with her husband, played by Steve Gutenberg. His name is Walter. The character's name is Walter. So, like, this is like an all-star cast. And they have two obnoxious kids. They are very conservative, like small C conservative, like very old-fashioned dress that she's wearing with like a little white lace collar, and like he's like buttoned up, and we see immediately that Walter does not like Tommy, and Tommy does not like Walter. Tommy's the brother. Walter's the brother-in-law.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, real quick, is Holly Hunter, is Claudia divorced? Is she a widow? We don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

We don't know at this point. We just don't know. So Joanne and Walter have brought their own turkey, and like weirdness ensues. There's also Aunt Glady, who is the mother's sister. So the mother, Anne Bank, Anne Bancroft's character's name is Adele. So Adele's sister Gladdy is there, who is totally off her rocker, and like goes off on these this weird tangent about how she's had a crush on Henry, the dad, played by Charles Derning, like since she first laid eyes on him, like 50 years ago or something. And the thing is, like, the whole table is like watching, I think it's new information, and yet none of them are particularly surprised. A turkey carcass lands ends up in Joanne's lap, the buttoned up one, and she like, and it's Tommy's fault. And she just like loses her mind and curses at him. And then she yells at him, How dare you that he got married to Jack on the beach in Boston, and she has people in Boston who are talking, and it's so embarrassing. How could he not realize that there are other people in this world? And you're like, oh, I'm like, oh, she's not just sour. Like, she's awful to send that kind of homophobia at him. And like, he's a jerk. And I'm sure he's made her life miserable, but like the thing that she actually goes after him about for being out, ew. F off. Yeah. Like, so in the meantime, like Leo Fish has been very friendly with Claudia the whole time she thought he was gay and with her brother. Like at one point, she is out on the street, she's walking in this terrible coat, and a high school acquaintance pulls up in a convertible with another high school acquaintance. They're together now, and is like, it's one of those very awkward moments. And Leo Fish actually sort of saves her from that. Like the friend, the frenemy says, How old is your son now? Didn't you have a son? And she's like, Oh, my daughter, she's actually, and Leo comes up and says, She's 18 now. She's we're so proud of her. And then he says the something, I don't remember the what why it's appropriate, but he says, Speaking of that, isn't your coat endangered? Because she's wearing the frenemy's wearing a fur coat. And the woman says, Well, yes, but it wasn't when I bought it. And he goes, Well, then you did your part today. And it's like this beautiful comeuppance for this woman who was really trying to humiliate Claudia. So there have, and there have been sort of sweet moments like that where he's clearly like being friendly. She thinks he's with her brother. Now that it's come out that Tommy and Jack are married, he's like, You really thought I was she's like, Yeah, I really did. So shenanigans ensue, and he says to her, that the two of them are in a car together, and Leo says to Claudia, Your brother showed me your picture, and I wanted to come meet you. And she's we see that she actually sort of likes the attention. He's very handsome. She has said to her brother, Yeah, he's a pretty boy. She thought they were talking about him for Tommy, but she did acknowledge that he's good looking. And then as he's getting out of the car, he says, That picture your brother showed me, that was something else. Then we cut to her, she's in the car and she's like fixing her lipstick. The POV cuts to Leo, who's inside a diner or something, asking for a cup of coffee. And the kid behind the counter, who's like a teenager, does not is like, we're close. And he says, Look, I'm here, aren't I? Like, give me some coffee, I will pay you for it. And Leo says to this kid, for us, the viewers, to hear, you're putting up this boundary because you're so young, you don't know, you think there are plenty of wonderful girls out there who can make you happy. And I'm telling you, there just aren't. So just give me the cup of coffee, the two cups of coffee, please. But after he delivers that monologue, she comes into the diner and she says, Was I naked in that picture? And she's very upset. A few minutes in the movie later, they're talking and he's like, Come on, Claudia, give me the time of day. Just give me the time of day. And then he forcibly kisses. Oh God. Oh god. And because it's 1995, she's into it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So they sort of end up back at the house, they're making out on the couch, and the brother like interrupts them. They didn't know he was there, like under her blanket. And she goes, she's like, you know what? I gotta go. And she goes up to her room, which is her childhood bedroom, and Leo follows her. And at the door of her childhood bedroom, she's like, No, like this isn't gonna work. Like you live too far away. It's like, it's just it's too much. Just no. And I was a little worried as I was watching it that he was gonna sort of be coercive again. But in fact, he just is like Claudia. Like he whispers her name, touches her cheek, and walks away. Thank God.

SPEAKER_01:

Where does Tommy live and Leo?

SPEAKER_00:

They left Boston. Okay. The next morning we see Claudia awake really early and look out the window. Tommy and Leo are getting in the car. Mom Adele is like sending them off and wishing them well, and they drive away. We have a quiet moment with Claudia and her dad in the basement. He's watching video or film, like old film of like when they were when the children were kids. And we've seen him with the video camera the entire time. Like he keeps being told he needs to put it down. And they're watching and they sort of have a sweet moment, and he tells a story about when they were kids, when the kids were little. We know that he's that he was an airplane mechanic. He worked at the airport. And so he got them into when the 727s were released, and they stood at the end of the runway and they like were very close to watch it take off. And the other kids were terrified and like clinging to his legs. But there was my girl. She was just standing there. You were fearless. And then they take her to the airport, and like they all have been talking about how they can't wait for this holiday to be over, but of course they're crying when they're saying goodbye at the airport. And then we're watching Claudia in the airplane, sort of it's a relatively empty airplane. And then who should walk down the aisle but Leo Fish? So he's on the plane. He has bought a round trip to Balts to Chicago, rather, where she's going. And he just wants to like spend a couple hours with her on the plane and just see what happens. He's not promising to move there. Like he has his return ticket already for later that same day. And the final minutes of the film are these look-like home movies of moments that we know were not recorded. So we see that airplane moment. We see the moments when Aunt Glady and Henry, who is dad, like danced and he kissed her that one time, which we heard the story about. We see Jack and Tommy's wedding on the beach, which Tommy told us there are no pictures because mom asked to see some. And then we cut back to the two of them on the plane. So there are a couple other like key moments that I think are significant in analysis that I'm just gonna say one of them out of order, which is that they seem to be acceptance without acknowledgement of Tommy's homosexuality. And except for Claudia.

SPEAKER_01:

You mean Joanne?

SPEAKER_00:

No, I mean Claudia d didn't actually acknowledge Dan Dixon. Oh, I see. I see. Like she actually was like embracing of Jack and everything. Joanne Neither. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, okay. That's what I mean.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. But now that the family knows that Tommy and Jack are married, Jack actually calls because remember, landlines. So he calls to speak to Tommy, and the dad takes the phone, or he's the one who answers the phone, and he says, You know, Jack, and I think I really mean this. Congratulations.

unknown:

God.

SPEAKER_00:

And then he looks at his son and he goes, You deserve better. You're a good kid. Which honestly, I agree with him. He deserves better. I don't know him, but like Tommy's a dick. So that felt a little bit important, especially with the Joanne homophobia. There's also a moment when Claudia Fowler like goes to Joanne's house to talk to her, and like Joanne accuses her of thinking she's so much. She says, like Joanne says to Claudia, you think you're so much better than we are. Which Claudia thinks she's a complete fuck up. Like she's convinced she's a complete fuck up. There's a scene when the it comes out when Joanne breaks the news that Jack and Tommy are married. Somehow it also happens, like Tommy shares, he had listened to his messages and says that Claudia got fired. And then Claudia goes and sits on his lap and she like basically gives him permission to tell the whole of everything. And then we learn that when we hear that Kit might be having sex, she doesn't, by the way. We learn that Claudia was a teenage mom and she never actually married the Kit's father. Okay. Kit's father. We learned that when the frenemy.

SPEAKER_01:

Why the frenemy was being okay. So so well, and I because I don't have a sense of Holly Hunter's age, so but she would have been about 32.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think she she was early 30s. Because she says to Fish, I was a young mother, I wasn't that young. She's only 16, not 18. So it was a little out of order, but it kind of doesn't matter because it's like a series of vignettes. Like, and in terms of like I mean, it's not it's a it's a slice of life. In terms of the direction and like the sets and the characters and the costumes, if this were just a family drama and we remove Leo Fish altogether, where he actually was, in fact, a new boyfriend, I would have loved this movie. Yeah. Like there's something like real and resonant in the like when Claudia goes to talk to Joanne after, you know, the dust has settled and and they've left, and it got real messy. Walter and Tommy were like literally came to fusticuffs and were like rolling around on the ground outside, and dad like sprayed the hose on them to break them up, like in the middle of November in Baltimore, or late November in Baltimore. So like it was real ugly. And after all of that, like Claudia goes to talk to Joanne, and Joanne just she's like she says to her, if we met, if we just met on the street and you gave me your phone number, I would throw it away. And Claudia says, We don't have to like each other, Joe. We're family. And like I think that actually is the heart of it, right? I would have really enjoyed this movie. The insertion of the romance, which is what I remembered most about it. Yeah. Like made it, it left a very bad taste in my mouth. And one of the things about it that I want to name too, that makes it sort of not forgivable, but I do see sort of the cultural piece of it. Adele and Henry, mom and dad, like there's this constant sort of like loving bickering. And at one point, he grabs her and starts dancing, and she says, No, I don't have time. I don't want to dance. But then he keeps going, and she eventually like stops fighting and in fact seems to enjoy herself. Like she's smiling and dancing too. So that sort of like not just like not consent, but sort of against like expressed decline that then gets overcome and is enjoyed by the object of that. We see in this other place, in this relationship that I don't know that we're supposed to think is like perfect, certainly, but is kind of a model. Yeah. Well, it's at least the model for these relationships. Right. So I just like I just wanted to name that in in particular because the coercive moment of the like, give me the time of day and he kisses her anyway, like was so uh upsetting to me as to you when I just relate it. And yet it had this precedent. I don't want to dance right now, Henry. So I think speaks to a little bit of like what we thought was romantic in 1995. Yeah. There was almost like this sense that like she was supposed to like resist in some way. The wearing her down was that's what courtship looks like. Which, like, in retrospect, like, ew, ew, ew, ew.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, I've been thinking about this. We're recording this in late October. It's just after Diane Keaton passed away. And I remember really liking the movie Baby Boom. Do you remember that movie? Yes. I didn't see it for a while and then watched it again, like, and I still in my teens. I don't think this was just Diane Keaton, but there were several movies that she was in where it did this where it seemed like the point of the movie, the point of the love interest of the movie was to humiliate her because the love interest was the local vet. I don't remember what happens. I think she has a panic attack or something like that. And so she ends up like waking up in his hospital and she thinks he's a doctor. And like, but oh no, no, he's not a doctor. He's a vet. And like she finds out in the most humiliating way possible. And then there's a similar scene where when he kisses her for the first time, she's it's the same sort of like, no, I'm not interested. And then he kisses her, and then she like becomes boneless and is like, oh, this is all I've ever wanted. I remembered loving that when I saw it when I was a kid. And then, like, less than 10 years later, when I was a teenager seeing it going, like, what the hell am I watching? And so it's the same sort of thing where it's like all we ever wanted was a man's tongue in our throat. You know? Like all of a sudden that that overcomes everything we thought we wanted. It's not that that's all we ever wanted.

SPEAKER_00:

It's more that's what we needed. Because we didn't think we wanted it, right? Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

It's it's really it's unfortunate. And then you mentioned that Jodie Foster is the uh is the director.

SPEAKER_00:

This is not her debut. This is her second directorial endeavor. Yeah, I would like I actually said that to the friend that I watched it with. I was like kind of disappointed that it was directed by a woman, that it also had this this romance. Who's the writer? SR something Richter. It was not a name that I recognized. Screenplay was by Chris Radent or Redont and W. D. Richter. I knew Richter.

SPEAKER_01:

Either of those could be any gender.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I found that piece a little disappointing, but also all the more evidence that like this was culture. This is what we thought romance looked like and was supposed to look like. And it did, you know, work at the time. So Yeah. On that score, in terms of like what we accepted, I let's talk about this idea of like forgiving bad behavior when a person makes us laugh. Tommy, Robert Downey Jr.'s character, is like there was all these practical jokes and like never serious. And just he does this thing where, so he's driving and he says something that's really, really obnoxious. And so Claudia gets out of the car. She's like, I'll just walk home. I don't want to be with you right now. And she's kind of playing, but kinda not. That's when the friend of me confronts her on the street. She's gonna get back in the car, and Tommy's like, Come on, we gotta go. We are running late. Seriously, get in the car. Get in the car. And then, you know, when she goes to the handle, he drives away. Like multiple times. Maybe that would be funny the first time. Maybe the third time, it ain't funny. Like, it's just not. And the thing with the pictures and that he's showing them to his friends. Oh, yeah. Like, there's nothing charming about that. And yet we are meant to see and believe that the relationship between Claudia and Tommy is real and based on on mutual affection, a little bit because it was us versus them in the family. Like they had each other against like their very sour sister and their like overbearing and just out of control parents. But also there's meant to be like real affection there. And I think we are meant to sort of take in all of Tommy as this sort of lovable road charming cad sort of thing. Exactly. And it's a trope, it's a stereotype. And I think we as a society ought to stop pushing back against it. Like even if you did make me laugh. Which I don't think most of Tommy's hijinks are particularly funny. But even if they were, that doesn't erase bad behavior. And I feel like as like you and I have talked about this, like as individuals, we do this and have done with boyfriends past. But even as a society, I feel like I like, I feel like we learned that from somewhere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I feel like we I want us as a culture to start pushing back on that.

SPEAKER_01:

It's also something that I struggle with. And I feel like it's not solely white men that you find this, but I'm more likely to find it among white men than not taking anything seriously. I really struggle when I come across someone who doesn't take anything seriously because it's just like, who are you? Like, what do you actually believe in? Because like I'm all about humor. I love to laugh. I love to make jokes. I like, if you can make me laugh, I really am glad to be friends with you. So it's not I want everything to be serious at all. And in fact, someone who takes everything seriously, I also have trouble comprehending. But someone who takes nothing seriously makes me feel like I don't know who you are. There's no there. I don't know, like when the chips are down, what you're gonna fight for. Right. Right. Right. And so, and like when you're like making that like, you know, pulling ahead while your sister's trying to get back in the car, like what safety do you worry about? Whose safety do you worry about? Yeah, you know, not that like there's it's one of those things where like I know that she's not actually unsafe, but still, she's under a lot of stress. She's having a bad week.

SPEAKER_00:

You're gonna do this to her? And he and he knows it, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

She knows the bad week she's having. And you're gonna do this to her in that awful fuchsia Barca. Yeah. Like, and this is someone that you love very much. I don't like who are you? Who are you really? If it's like, and you and I've talked also about how we grew up in a family where it was go for the joke, go for the joke, and how we've had to unpack that a little bit. Even having grown up with that, there is still a like above the go for the joke, there is like, but you're my sister and like you're having a tough time. I'm gonna take care of you, you know? Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Which presumably is why he wasn't supposed to come to Thanksgiving. And he comes anyway, and he brings a guy he thinks that might be coach for Claudia. So, like, maybe in his own way, he thinks that's what he's doing. Yeah. Even like within the universe of the movie.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think like what you were talking about is like the kind of the truth of like these kind of family dynamics. I think that there's something very interesting. Like, what happened in their childhoods that made Tommy this way? Like, what made him such an unreasonable dick, but who does still care enough about his family that he shows up anyway? And he brings this guy who he showed a naked picture of his sister to, but thinks that she'd like him. And like, if he's not a sociopath, how should he end up this way?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. To that question, too. Like, Joanne is like so type A and she wants everything just so. And at one point she says to Claudia, I can't do everything. This is like in the parents' home while they're trying to get everything on the table. And Claudia like picks something up off the kitchen table to take it to the dining room table and says, Nobody asked you to. So then we see that with Joanne too, where she feels as she needs to be into control of everything. And then she resents it, which I think we all know people like that. I have been that person occasionally. So the screenplay and the actors, and like they really get to something that feels like real and resonant. And I appreciate that. I think Foster's direction is part of that. I wish she'd left the romance of it, I guess. As much as you know, Dylan McDermott is really drew worthy with the way he looks, but the way he acts is more cringe-worthy. Yeah. Although he is like there's an easy camaraderie between him and Tommy. Like they even like he gives Tommy a piggyback at one point. And thinking about it just right now, uh talking out like thinking out loud right now, that he is in fact a straight man with that kind of easy level of comfort and physical touch with a man uh uh a gay guy who is his boss. Oh, really? Like he worked for him. They are like food sales people. Like whole things. Like they go up and yeah, food and liquor. It's not that the movie wants us to believe that Claudia's falling for like a complete reprobate or something. Well, it's and in fact, he's following the script that was the script for the leading man in 1995. It's just that Well, it's from 2025 that it's just it's it it's very unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01:

And the thing is, if he didn't look like Dermot Mulrooney, would she have been like into the kiss? Dur Dylan McDermott. If he didn't look like Dylan McDermott, would she have been into the kiss?

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. If he had looked like Danny DeVito or Steve Buscemi, who I know you find oddly sexy. But if like if Steve Buscemi was like, just give me the time of day, Claudia, just give me the time of day and kissed her, we would all be like, even in 1995, we would have been like, Ew, don't do that. It shouldn't be a different set of rules.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. Yeah. You did say you wanted to talk a little bit about like how Tommy's queerness fits into like family dynamics.

SPEAKER_00:

This felt really real too. Like the older sister Claudia just fully accepts, like, she's actually upset that they've broken up and she doesn't know, or she thinks that he and Jack have broken up. So her congratulations are like so genuine and unqualified. And in fact, if anything, she's just annoyed she wasn't invited or even told, but not that he's married.

SPEAKER_01:

And is there a reason they didn't invite anybody?

SPEAKER_00:

It is not explicitly given, but when Tommy talks to Jack on the phone, Tommy says something like, How's my real family? And we see Jack in his in wherever the Boston apartment with a whole bunch of people. And he says, Your real family is just fine and we miss you, and so and so is doing this, and so and so I think it's really one can extrapolate that it's because like mom and dad like don't aren't kicking him out, but also aren't super like they don't want to talk about it. They just don't want to deal with it. They don't want to deal with it. And Joanne is actively antagonistic. So I don't know why Claudia wouldn't have been invited.

SPEAKER_01:

Maybe that was like that would have invited that would have in involved everyone else knowing.

SPEAKER_00:

Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. But that sort of like acceptance without acknowledgement in the mid-90s, that actually felt real.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And this moment of like, I think I really mean this, congratulations, is like backhanded. And yet I think for 95 was probably pretty progressive. Yeah. One commentator I read said that that final scene that is like film that doesn't actually exist of the beach wedding between Jack and Tommy was this person, this commentator was queer and was saying, like, that was actually the first like on-screen gay wedding I ever saw. Was this like few minutes, it's like, I don't know, maybe two minutes of film. It's really not much. So, so in that, like, in that sense, like there there was something there's something about sort of reflecting reality where the film is not judging Tommy and Jack. Right? It and it is judging Joanne. Yes. Yeah. So that piece of it and in the family dynamic, and maybe that explains the clowniness of him too. Because if they're annoyed at him for his antics, they're not talking about the fact that he's gay. Maybe. That yeah, that that is understandable. That's a in terms of your like, why is he like this? Yeah. So that was just something that like occurred to me, especially when I read this commentator who said that was the first on-screen gay wedding that the that they had ever seen. That like put it a little bit into perspective of its time in '95. Yeah. Yeah. I also wanted to talk about the nature of memories. As I was watching it, actually, I turned to my friend after the credits are rolling and I was like, I don't understand. Like those final clips, like, we know they didn't actually exist. And so and it's so it's actually had to bake for me, which I don't know if that recommends it or doesn't. But it's had to bake for me a little bit in terms of thinking about like the nature of memories. Because the dad says, I wish I could have gotten that on film about the airport moment. And in fact, the film that we see is slightly different than the way he described it. Because he says, You were there standing on your own. And in the memory, we see the other two kids like grabbed onto his legs, and he's got her in his arms, and they're both like looking, like she's not cowering at all, like the other two are. But she's in his arms, not standing on her own. And so one like those subtle changes kind of make me think that there's a commentary subtext layered in there about the nature of memory and about like this need to capture it versus like what is real. I'm putting quotes around that word. And like, is which is real? The way that Henry remembers it or the way it actually happened, and like, does it really matter? And like those sorts of like those questions actually start to come up for me when I look a little deeper at the way that this film ends. Which I think is really like that actually is interesting to me. But I still don't know what it has to say about the love, the subplot of the of the romance, right? Like, I think like Roger Ebert seemed in his contemporaneous review, he actually quite liked it, but he seemed to think like that this wasn't like suggesting this was the romance for the ages, just that they might get along if they had more time. Maybe. Maybe. But like I'm just not sure where to put it or what lesson I'm supposed to take. I mean, like, clearly, Claudia, she says like Boston is so far away, like this will never work. Like, she doesn't want just a casual one night sort of a thing. We're not left to think that there's anything more possible. Like he's turning around right away. But maybe that's enough, and maybe that's sort of the memory, like this thing that dad was describing as his best day ever. The actu he even says it was actually like maybe three minutes. And so so sort of that like that tension between the fleeting nature of the joy itself and the longevity of the memory of the joy, and the fact that like the actual like logistics of the moments don't need to align in order for him to continue to have that joy. I'm like saying like this is actually new ideas right now as I'm speaking.

SPEAKER_01:

So this is bringing up several things for me. One being that, and I'll have to look this up, but I've read that when you remember something, you're actually remembering the last time you thought about it. Oh like, which is why memory is so malleable and not something that you can count on. Like that's why like uh eyewitness testimony is not that great when it comes to court cases and things like that, which is like held like uh it's a great example of that, that his memory is that she was standing alone, and then we're see the real story is that he's holding her. And so that gets to, I took a memoir class earlier this year where I was writing, and I've always struggled with memoir because it's like as soon as I write it, I'm fictionalizing it because anything you put down, like it's not exactly as it happened. But the thing is, what I remember isn't exactly as it happened because it's impossible. And so, like, the nature of memory is already fictionalized because it's gone through like my own little filter, and then I am remembering the last time I thought about it. And so there are some things from my kids' early childhood. So we happen to get my younger son's first steps on video, and it's on social media, one of the social media platforms that you know shows you things like on this day so many years ago. So I see it every year. And I don't recall my older son's first steps. And I've wondered like it's a joy to see that every time. But I now don't remember, like, because it was my husband taking the video. So I remember seeing the video. I don't remember being myself because my son was And watching him take him take the steps towards me because he's walking towards me. I remember seeing it from the side. And so from from your husband's from my husband's point of view, and so like that doesn't make like re repeatedly seeing this any less joyful. Every time I see it, it makes me happy. But at the same time, like I've lost the point of view. That's something that I've come to appreciate as I'm thinking about, because I get anxious when I think about the fact that like once I'm gone, all of my experiences are gone. But they're mine and like they kind of have to be gone when I'm gone. You know, like that that finding that balance between like if I were to like have them all recorded in some way, they'd still be gone because you'd only have it from the side. You wouldn't have the first person POV that I've lost anyway, because it was my husband who took the video. Because it's the nature of memories.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that definitely aligns with sort of whether consciously or unconsciously is happening for Foster. I think that's a Jody Foster thing. I think this is a directorial thing to have those final moments the way that they were. Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

It's quite a lot for a throw away a little rom-com.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So the last thing I'll just mention because it was actually really funny. It was one time when both my friend and I laughed really hard, was near the end, they're watching the TV, or at some point they're watching the TV. Claudia and her dad are watching TV, and it's like maybe like a 32-inch tube TV. And she says, That's a really big TV, dad. And he says, Yeah, it's too big. And I'm watching it on my like 50-inch like flat screen, you know? Like that was that actually was pretty funny. We both laughed out loud. So there's actually kind of a lot in this movie, as much as it was like, yeah, like you say, kind of a throwaway rom-com. It passes Bechtel so many ways. That's right. So many ways. Left, right, and center. So, as a reminder, listeners, the Bechtel test from Allison Bechtel, who is an amazing cartoonist. You should check out her work. We ask ourselves three questions. Are there at least two named female characters? Yes. Do they talk to each other? Yes. Do they talk to each other about something other than a man or a boy? Yes, yes, and yes. Like there's Adele and Claudia talk about things other than men, and Claudia and Joanne talk, and Claudia and Kit talk, and Joanne and Adele talk, like all of the many named female characters talk to one another about many things besides men and boys. So Aunt Gladdy and Claudia talk about things other than men and boys. So that's a good thing. It still has a bit of an ick factor, but it does pass back time. So let me see if I can reflect back some of the things that I brought you, some of my deep thoughts about home for the holidays, just in time for Thanksgiving. So this film has kind of an icky picture of like courtship and romance. I think is characteristic of the time. But there is a sense that, like, even if she's saying no, she actually really does want that, whatever that might be, in this case, his tongue down her throat. And he has sort of a his task in courtship is to kind of wear her down, to interpret that no, which is really gross. Now, to the film's credit, thank God, when he's standing at the door of her bedroom, it was really gross. The way he was trying to wear her down right there, he was like, Come on, Claudia, be brave. Which, like, ew, yucky, dude, there's no there's no moral merit in sleeping with you. But I don't need bravery to anyway.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Get in a pan. But when she is like, yeah, no, he sort of expresses affection for her and walks away. Thank God. But earlier in the film, like he forcibly kisses her and turns out she likes it. Which gross. That's a choice. That's a choice. That's a writing and a directorial choice. What this film does really, really well and is like very resonant is sort of the family dynamic where people, even though outside of this childhood home are like fully formed adults, like they get back into their childhood space and they are snarking at each other like their kids. And all of the old hurts come to the surface at this Thanksgiving table, which reads as very, very true. It just reads as real and the way that people are. And even some of the types, right? The overfunctioning middle child who feels like she has to do everything, even though no one asked her to. And she's resentful for having to do everything. Like, I know her. I've been her. Like that really reads as true. I would never castigate my sibling for getting married publicly in an embarrassing way. But hey, look, it was a moon bounce.

SPEAKER_01:

It was fun.

SPEAKER_00:

That motorcycle made great. Baked into that family dynamic is also Tommy, the character Tommy, played by Robert Downey Jr., his queerness, his gayness, which is like also, again, like I think characteristic of the time where there's from the other characters, most of them, an acceptance without a full acknowledgement. Like, yeah, it's okay that you're gay, but like, don't put it in my face from most of the fan the rest of the family. And even this moment from the dad, like, I think I mean this, congratulations to the husband, which I think for 95 was probably pretty progressive. It's it does not feel that way anymore. The there was also like they kept asking Tommy if he had worn a dress, which was WTF. Yeah. They just have a hard time imagining a wedding without a dress, apparently.

SPEAKER_01:

Because that's an integral part of a service, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

Like obviously. So in our talking, we also wondered if maybe Tommy's charming roguishness, which does not read as particularly charming in 2025, but maybe there was something of that that was a coping mechanism to distract the family from talking about Tommy's gayness because they were too busy talking about his antics that you and I kind of speculated about. In answer to your question, like what made him like this? Right. He his antics are really gross and embarrassing and not okay. And we're meant to accept them because Claudia does as proxy for the audience. We're meant to also accept them because the the movie's from her point of view. But there was some interesting stuff in there, I think, about the nature of memories. And that's made possible in part by the medium of film, right? And the question about like memories committed to film or some other thing, that then that capture becomes real rather than the memories. And then you shared an anecdote about how you've lost the point of view of your younger kids' first steps because your memory is tied up in the video that you have of it, which was from your husband's point of view at the time, which I think is a really interesting kind of personal lens reflection of what I think this film is getting at about the nature of memory and recording those memories. I was a little disappointed that it had this yucky romance stuff and was also directed by a woman. At the same time, there are things about her direction that were masterful. I think the family dynamics, the choices about the home, like all the little knickknacks and shit that's in the home that like makes sense for people who've been living there for 40 years or whatever. Like it really was believable. I had a moment very early on where I was like, that's not Chicago, that's the Baltimore Museum of Art. That's not O'Hare. That's the that's BWI. And then they were supposed to have flown from. And so, and then in my head, I'm thinking, like, well, maybe she only had to pay for like on location in one city if she did it that way. Which I mean, that I guess that makes sense. Because the other neighborhood scenes definitely do look like Baltimore. I don't know. As someone who's lived in both Chicago and Baltimore, like I wanted this movie to be better than it was.

SPEAKER_01:

I wanted it to be on location in both cities.

SPEAKER_00:

But I guess you, you know, you take what you can get. Anyway, what did I forget? Did I forget anything that we talked about? No, no, I think that's you think you you got everything. Well, listeners, I hope that you are able to leave some of the drama away from the Thanksgiving table. But if you can't, we have a whole back catalog and you can go distract yourself by listening to old episodes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Just put on the bow's headphones, you can't hear anything else. Just us.

SPEAKER_00:

Just laugh with us. All right. Well, so next time, Em, what are you doing? I'm bringing you my deep thoughts on Strictly Ballroom. Oh that one. I loved that movie. Yeah. Hi. So I'll look forward to that then. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon. There's a link in the show notes. Or leave a positive review so others can find us. And of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompitech.com. Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head?