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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
The Sword in the Stone: Deep Thoughts About Animation, Squirrely Romance, and Merlin's Terrible Pedagogy
Hockety pockety wockety wack! Odds and ends and bric-a-brac!
In revisiting this classic Disney animation from 1963, Tracie found that the charm she remembered from her childhood wasn't nearly as charming this time around. While the comedy of Merlin, Archimedes the Owl, and Arthur (known as the Wart) was still humorous, the film feels more like a series of unconnected events rather than any kind of storytelling. The only named woman in the story is Madam Mim--although looking for feminism in any kids movies from the 1960s, animation or otherwise, may be a fool's errand--but at least she's a wonderfully subversive pop culture witch who is fun to watch. But the oddest thing about the film is Merlin's ineffectiveness as a teacher. His instruction does nothing to help Arthur pull the sword from the stone. In fact, the wizard is a terrible and irresponsible tutor.
Even with these uncomfortable realizations, there's much to admire. Even though The Sword in the Stone was made during Disney's low period, the animation is lovely and there are several parts that made Tracie laugh out loud. Just make sure that's really a squirrel before you fall head over heels in love with him!
To and fro, stop and go, listening to podcasts makes the world go round!
Mentioned in this episode:
https://disnerdmoviechallenge.com/blog/review-the-sword-in-the-stone-dmc-38
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
Madame Mim is the only named female character. She is fascinating, right Like she is unapologetically who she is and in fact she's ugly. And she says she's ugly and she narrow waist, big hips, long hair, like pretty face and she's like but why would I do that? She don't want it and that's kind of awesome. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Speaker 1:I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? Culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1963 Disney animated film the Sword in the Stone with my sister, emily Guy-Burken, and with you. Let's dive in. I know you saw this movie. We watched it together a lot when we were kids. I feel like it was one that we watched with our cousin Chris. But tell me, like what's in your head, what comes up for you when I mention the Sword in the Stone? So there's a couple of things.
Speaker 2:There's Arthur Wart. I remember identifying with him as being like overlooked people, underestimating him because he was just a kid and he didn't fit in. Because he was just a kid and he didn't fit in. I remember really liking that. I remember loving the bad guy, madame Mim, like the dark magic. I just thought she was funny, this very tiny detail. When they first meet her I feel like, or at some point in their encounter with her she's playing solitaire and she's cheating, and that just delighted me. I remember Wart in his lessons with Merlin being turned into various animals. There's a point where he says, oh, I always wished I could fly, and Merlin very quietly turns him into a bird. I remember him being turned into a squirrel and there's a lady squirrel who, like, falls in love with him and I.
Speaker 2:That really always really bothered me that part of the story because, yeah, it's bothersome For so many reasons.
Speaker 2:Yeah we'll talk about it. When Arthur pulls the sword from the stone, which I also as a very literal child and they actually they do something about it in the story because it's like this, pull the sword from the stone and anvil because the way they've drawn it it's a sword in a stone and an anvil. So I'm like it's not in a stone, it's in a stone with an anvil. I remember like the way that it is animated is very magical. I also recall loving the fact that once Wart has pulled it, then Kay, his cousin, half-brother, adopted brother, who's like big muscly guy, is like oh, anyone can pull it once it's been pulled and he can't get it. So that was so satisfying to me as a child.
Speaker 2:I haven't seen the movie in. It's got to be 35 years. That chosen one trope I find troubling as an adult watching now because it removes agency. As an adult watching now because it removes agency from the character, there's no free will. So as satisfying as I found that moment watching it as a kid, I think revisiting it as an adult and it's, you know, that's not the fault of like this Disney movie. It's baked into the Arthur myth. But because it stops there, we don't even get to see like okay, you know, all right, he's the chosen one, he's a kid, what does he do with it? You know, we don't even get to see the like, the Neo moment of like. Okay, now I'm going to use my chosen one to, like, fight back against the evil, or anything. So tell me, why are we talking about Sword in the Stone?
Speaker 1:today. I swapped it in for a different animated movie that we had on the list for now. We recently talked about Beastmaster, so I was thinking about fantasy. Maybe that's why it sort of resonated more than what we had originally planned for right now. It was one that, like I, was totally charmed by when we were kids. It really really stuck with me, and so I wanted to kind of revisit it. Regular listeners will know that I'm a big fan of animation. As a, when we were watching this the first time, like my aspiration, like when people would say what do you want to be when you grow up, tracy, I would say I want to be an animator for Disney, and so the Disney animation remains really close to my heart, and this one was one that really was pretty formative, and so it seemed like it was time. So that's why, now A few things, just some postcards from the destination, from the analysis I want to talk about.
Speaker 1:We will talk about gender briefly. I want to talk about magic in this movie and the way they talk about it versus the way it actually shows up as an element of the story and, to your point, about sort of the chosen, one kind of trope, if we have said on Deep Thoughts and I stand by this that one of the hallmarks of a protagonist is that they grow and change through the story. And if that's the case, there is no protagonist to this movie, so I want to talk about that. And what does that mean to have this chosen one who really doesn't grow, even though the whole movie is about his education? So that's kind of like an interesting tension. You remember, madame Mim? She is the only named female character in the whole movie. She's pretty fantastic actually, so I want to talk about her a little bit. Versus Merlin, who is a terrible tutor. He's like a really rotten, rotten mentor. His owl is a better teacher than he is, so we'll talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 2:Well, Al's do always have a graduation cap on, so like you know that they're educated, they're just smart. They're going to be good teachers.
Speaker 1:One of the things that is interesting with Merlin for the audience, the contemporary audience, this is 1963. And he has this he sort of sees the future, which I don't think I fully understood as a kid. But he sees the future including the 20th century, and so he makes these references to the 20th century, which actually pretty funny. There's actually a lot of humor in this movie. There's like from Merlin but also from Wart, actually like these kind of snarky asides that are quite funny.
Speaker 1:And then briefly like since, since we talked about animation, it's interesting that like ages ago I don't remember which episode we talked about Disney's Robin Hood, which has a similar sort of start. It's 10 years later but it's like more foundational in my memory. So that's kind of an interesting thing to the way that, as consumers, when things are all predate us, the order in which we encounter them is not necessarily the way that, as consumers, when things are all predate us, the order in which we encounter them is not necessarily the order that they came. And so to a certain extent, like re-watching this movie, I was like, oh, it starts out just like Robin Hood. Actually it's the other way around.
Speaker 2:I was. When you said it was from 1963, I was like wait, it was. It was my first reaction.
Speaker 1:I was like I had no idea it was that old. My first reaction I was like I had no idea it was that old, yeah, yeah. So let me give you a quick synopsis. This one, I'm not even going to say it. I'm going to say shenanigans and sue a lot in this synopsis because it really is like a series of vignettes, almost.
Speaker 1:So it opens like Disney's Robin Hood, with sort of an illustration of a like an illuminated manuscript that we open up, and so we learn that England's king Uther Pendragon has died, leaving no heir, and there's fighting and there's going to be a war. But then a miracle happens and this sword in a stone or like appears in London and on the sword it says whosoever shall pull this sword from this stone will be the rightful king of England, or something like that. And everybody tries and nobody can get it out and it just sort of gets forgotten. And there's England is just kind of kingless and the narrator makes it clear that's a bad thing. England is just kind of kingless and the narrator makes it clear that's a bad thing.
Speaker 2:So you know because monarchy is the best method of governance. It's the best form of governance, as we have proven throughout time.
Speaker 1:Over and, over and over again. So that's the book. And it's funny because I say the Robin Hood thing. I kept waiting for one of the little illuminated characters to start talking to me, like the rooster bard does in Robin Hood, and that doesn't happen. It actually is just like sort of still paintings which felt kind of almost lazy. It's like really obnoxious of me as a viewer to say that, but it really sort of felt like lazy animation to have these like still. They're beautiful paintings but like they aren't moving.
Speaker 2:I knew you were going to start talking and singing about Sir.
Speaker 1:Kay and Wart wort. So it starts being animated. When we meet Merlin, he's pulling water from a well and he keeps getting all tangled up in his big long beard and complaining about the medieval mess and how he misses modern technology. So from the get we meet him and we see that he like has knowledge of our time but is sort of in this medieval time and is just a little bit bumbling Like he's got this beard that goes almost to his knees and it keeps getting tangled up and stuff. So he goes back to this little thatch roof cottage which is like maximal, with like crap everywhere and he's making tea and like arranging the house. And he starts talking to his owl, archimedes, who is a intelligent talking owl Just go with it. And he's expecting someone and they're going to drop in for tea and he tells us it's a young boy. And then he's like envisioning and we see, like in his like thought cloud we see Kay who is the adoptive brother. He's a lunk of a man, like just a total meathead, and Merlin says, oh no, that can't be him. And then behind him comes this scrawny little thing about 11. That's who we're waiting for and Merlin doesn't know why.
Speaker 1:Yet Kay the lunkhead is hunting with an arrow, with a bow and arrow. He's hunting a deer and Wart accidentally messes up his shot and the arrow goes way up, high and down into the forest and Kay's like gonna, he's chasing after W Wart we don't know his name yet and is like really mad at him for messing up his shot. And Wart says it's okay, I'm gonna go get the arrow. And Kay says you can't go in there, there are wolves in that forest. And Wart says I'm not scared, I'm gonna go get your arrow. So Kay says whatever, you know I don't remember exactly how he says it, but basically, like your funeral is a sentiment.
Speaker 1:So we watch Wart go into the forest and a scrawny wolf takes interest in him immediately. Wart is just wandering the forest and he sees the arrow. It's stuck up in a tree. He climbs up the tree to get the arrow, a branch breaks and he falls through the thatched roof exactly onto the chair that Merlin has left for him. So now the two meet each other. Merlin doesn't know why this boy's important, but he knows he is. We learn his name. My name's Arthur, but everybody calls me the Wart. Merlin says that's an unfortunate nickname. So the three of them meet.
Speaker 1:Archimedes and Merlin and Wart meet and Wart is very polite, not at all scared by the magic, like there's a little sugar dish with a spoon and his little lid that he uses as a hat, that like moves around the table and like puts sugar into the tea and stops when the person says when and like. Wart is not freaked out by this at all, which I think is significant. Wirt is not freaked out by this at all, which I think is significant. He's not freaked out by Archimedes either. He thinks he's a stuffed owl initially and Archimedes gets offended. But even when he gets offended it's not like oh my God, a talking owl, it's just like, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, he just takes it in stride.
Speaker 2:That's kind of the definition of Wirt.
Speaker 1:So he kind of is yeah. So Merlin says I'm going to teach you. And Wirt's like, okay, I mean what? Merlin's like you know, I'm going to give you an education. And you know we learn that Wirt is an orphan and like that's not a thing that he can do. He has to get back to the castle because he has duties. And Merlin's like, ok, I'll come with you.
Speaker 1:And then we see the first, like big magic, where he has this weird little incantation that he sort of sings with lots of bippity, boppities and like all of the maximalist stuff that's in this little cottage like shrinks down, tiny, and goes into a carpet bag. And Wart is charmed by this, but again, not phased. So then they set out and Merlin's like giving this speech about like how important it is to have a direction, and it's like and like do the things. And then they're like striding purposefully through the forest like up hills and over dales, meanwhile the scrawny wolf chasing them, trying to eat the wart, like totally missing him. The two humans are completely oblivious to the wolf. Finally, merlin like runs out of breath in his like monologue about the importance of direction and says where is this castle, by the way? And Ward says, oh, it's actually the other way.
Speaker 1:So they turn around and stride the other way and the poor wolf is like, exhausted and thwarted, cut to the castle where Sir Ector, who is the adoptive father, is berating Kay who couldn't care less, is like eating meat off a bone with his feet up. And Ector's like how could you let him go into the forest? He's a scrawny little thing. And Kay's like I'm not the warts keeper. And Ector's like why I am Like I said I would take care of him. And how could you? I'm like he's going to, he's gonna, he's gonna die. And k's like what if he does? You know? Like it's really. K is not a good guy, so and ector's not, actually doesn't, actually care, doesn't seem to actually care about the child's well-being, just his, his reputation status, I guess yeah, that's kind of how I read it.
Speaker 1:So Merlin and Wart march in. Hector yells at Wart and gives him demerits for having worried him half to death. And then Merlin introduces himself.
Speaker 1:He's in boarding school, yeah, and he's going to have punishments for these demerits. We hear that a lot. He gets a lot of demerits in this movie and Merlin and Hector kind of face off and Hector's like you're not welcome here with your magic. And Merlin like disappears. And Hector's like oh, I made him go away. And then you hear Merlin's voice is like did you? I could still be here, you don't even know. So if I leave or if I don't, you never know if I'm really gone. And Hector's like okay, you can stay.
Speaker 1:And he puts Merlin up in the I want to say the West Tower. It doesn't really matter, it's this like dilapidated tower that like half it's going to fall down any second. Hector says it's a little bit drafty in the winter, but in the summer it's the best, best room in the house. So we see later we see Merlin in this tower room like sticking umbrellas up through holes in the roof. So these anachronisms happen over and over again. And then Sir Pelennor arrives and we hear him arriving and there's another like sort of anachronistic joke where Merlin says I can't wait for the London Times because that won't be published for over a thousand years and he asks Archimedes to fly down and listen. So it turns out they're going to have a tournament on New Year's Day and the winner of the tournament will be crowned king. And so actors like okay, you're up to be knighted at Christmas time. You should, you know, stick to your training and then you could be in this tournament and Wart will be your squire, and Wart's really excited about that. So that's sort of like a frame story.
Speaker 1:There's this tournament coming on New Year's Day Right now it's still summertime. So we see Wart helping with the night training. Kay is terrible at it and like the static horse that he's like jousting against, keeps knocking him off his horse. And Merlin comes and finds him and is like hey, you know, let's, I want to give you a lesson. And Wart's like I got stuff to do. And Merlin convinces him to go. So they go for a walk and they end up at the moat and Merlin turns him into a fish and they're swimming in the moat and I suppose it's meant to be physics. There's like a little song that they sing like to and fro, stop and go, that's what makes the world go round. Oh, my goodness, I remember that. It is a bit of a musical, but like not a high production musical. It's like just these two kind of thin voices with this child and this old man. So they have a great time swimming until this pike takes interest in little wart and is going to eat him and Merlin's like kind of stuck in a helmet from like a suit of armor and he's like brain over brawn. My boy like outthink him. And so Wart does a little bit but like just eventually like he's tired and like the pike almost gets him and he's like jumping up out of the water and Archimedes actually saves him, finally gets turned back into a human and I don't like I don't know what the lesson was. Anyway, he we see him sort of then explaining to Hector and Kay what happened. They do not believe him.
Speaker 1:More demerits, and by the way, the demerits come with kitchen duty. So doing dishes is the punishment that feels a little bit important for some of the lessons that we were taking. So he's stuck doing like I don't know, like a kingdom's worth of dishes, like the only humans we see in this castle. Besides, we see Wart, kay, hector, and then we meet a maid later and Merlin, but there's dishes like there's like a hundred people eating Anyway. So Ward's cleaning dishes. He's like singing his little to and fro song and Merlin's like, hey, let's have another lesson. He's like, no, look at all these dishes. I got to do so, even though Merlin told us from the very beginning, when he made all of his stuff small and to fit into the carpet bag, he said magic can't solve all your problems. But now he's solving his problem with magic because he enchants the dishes to do themselves and they're like they set up like an assembly line and they're like washing themselves. And so the two, merlin and the wart, leave the kitchen.
Speaker 1:Next time we see them they're squirrels and they're like jumping through the trees and Wart is just like running and leaping and like not thinking first, and Merlin's like very carefully, like jumping and still missing, and you know that's kind of cute. And then, what you remember, a female squirrel takes interest in Wart and she will not take no for an answer. She has decided that he is her mate. And we learn from Merlin that squirrels mate for life. And Merlin thinks this is very funny, like very funny, until another female squirrel takes an interest in Merlin.
Speaker 1:And there are some funny moments where, like, wart is saying to the squirrel, like I'm not a boy, I'm a squirrel. No, I mean, I'm not a squirrel, I'm a boy, a human boy. And then later Merlin's like I'm not a boy, so a really sort of bizarre thing that Wolf from the beginning comes back and almost eats Wart, squirrel Wart, but female squirrel, who has the hots for wart, saves him, actually like biting on the wolf's ankles and stuff, and merlin finally turns himself back into a human to dissuade the female squirrel that's into him and then turns wart back into a human and the little squirrel that saved his life is like heartbroken, like we see tears, like, and she and she's like has this little like whimper, like like it's really, really sad, like it's actually quite bothersome and the lesson from that was not physics but about love, which is more powerful than magic, merlin tells us Meanwhile the maid who does not have a name like freaks out because the dishes are washing themselves. Which, girlfriend?
Speaker 2:pause a second here do not look a gift self-washing dish in the mouth like you see that happening. You turn around, you go back, you put your feet up yeah.
Speaker 1:So she freaks out, sir, actor and k come in and they're like fighting the dishes and like losing badly, like break their swords and get like knocked into buckets and stuff. So we're. And merlin come back in and like this is black magic of the worst kind. How dare you? And Merlin's like washing dishes is black magic. Anyway, wart gets more demerits. The maid is like don't you dare come near my kitchen again, which again, girlfriend, that's your kitchen. Like what are you doing?
Speaker 1:And Merlin feels real bad about like getting him in trouble and in fact Wart loses the squireship and Hector gives it to Hobbs, another kid, because Wart talks back to him. He says Merlin's a good person, he's not bad and it's not bad magic, it's awesome and whatever. He talks back to Hector and, as a result, gets like I don't know a hundred demerits or something and he loses the squireship and he's very upset and merlin feels really bad. But whatever, now you have more time for your studies. Then they get turned into birds and archimedes teaches him to fly and a hawk shows up and like at this point, like maybe look around for predators before you turn the kid into an animal. So, running from the hawk, he ends up in Madam Mim's cottage. So she says she's the greatest magician, but she's a black magician. Archimedes flies in, realizes Madam Mim goes and gets Merlin. Merlin comes back, they have a wizard's duel where they make some rules which Mim immediately breaks. Ultimately Merlin wins the wizard's duel by becoming a germ and making her sick.
Speaker 1:So then we sort of fast forward and the tournament is coming and Hobbes, who had been given the squireship, is sick. So Wart gets it back. He goes to Merlin. He's like look, I'm a squire. I'm a squire. He's wearing this like tunic that's way too big for him. And Archimedes is like that's great boy. And Merlin is like why would you do that? And he's like kind of yells at him. Merlin is like why would you do that? And he's like kind of yells at him. And Wirt's like what do you want from me? I'm an orphan, I'm poor, this is it, this is as good as it gets for me. And Merlin just gets really frustrated and says blow me to Bermuda and leaves. So they go to London. Archimedes sticks with.
Speaker 2:Wirt.
Speaker 1:And they go to London and it's the middle of the tournament and Kay's up next and Wart realizes he's forgotten Kay's sword back at the inn. He goes back to the inn to try and get it but it's locked up because everybody's at the tournament. And Archimedes says oh wait, look, there's a sword over in that churchyard. And they go over there and Archimedes is like maybe you should leave this alone. And Wart's like no, I need a sword for Kay. So he like pulls his sword out of the anvil and like golden light bathes down on him. He takes it back to the tournament grounds. Ector immediately recognizes what it is. Wart says where he got it and nobody believes him. So they go back to the churchyard and they stick it back in this thing and he goes to take it out again. And that's when the thing you remember k is like anybody can pull it. Once it's been pulled, k can't pull it. Other people try, finally, like some stranger with a beard's, like I say let the boy try. And other people like yeah, that's what I say. So arthur pulls it again, bathed in gold light, it comes out and so ector immediately kneels, apologizes for treating him bad, makes Kay kneel to his king.
Speaker 1:And then we cut to the throne room and this scrawny little boy is wearing like the ermine and the crown and he is miserable. And Archimedes is with him. He's by himself, just him and the owl. And he's like what am I going to do? And Archimedes is like can you sneak out the side door? And he tries, but when he opens the door you hear the crowds going long live King Arthur. And he's like well, let's try this other door. Long live King Arthur. So he's like stuck and he says, well, I wish Merlin were here.
Speaker 1:And apparently, having said his name, he's like Beetlejuice and he shows back up wearing Bermuda shorts and he says the 20th century isn't as cool as I thought. And then he or as I remembered something like that. And then Merlin realizes he's King Arthur of the round and he says something about a round table and Arthur's like round. And he's like well, would you prefer square? And Arthur's like no, round is fine. Merlin says you are going to be the stuff of legends. They're going to write books about you and histories about you and, who knows, they may even make a motion picture. So it's like a reference to the movie we're watching, where it says what's a motion picture and Merlin says it's kind of like television, but without commercials, which was very funny when I was watching it, because I have Disney Plus supported by commercials, so I just watched the movie with commercials.
Speaker 2:And that's the end of the movie. Commercials. And that's the end of the movie. So shenanigans, many, so many shenanigans so where were so many shenanigans?
Speaker 1:I'm going to start with gender because it's easy we can get out of the way. This does not pass the bechdel test. So reminder are the bechdel test from allison bechdel are there at least two? Named female characters no we can stop there. Do they speak to each other na? Do they speak to each other about something other than?
Speaker 2:a man or a boy?
Speaker 1:NA, so it does not pass back time, so that's interesting. And Madam Mim is the only named female character. She is fascinating, right, like she is unapologetically who she is and in fact she's ugly. And she says she's ugly and she's short and she's like round and she has like funny hair. She says I can be beautiful and she makes herself beautiful and the way they draw her when she says that is like big boobs, narrow waist, big hips, long hair, like pretty face and she's like but why would I do that? She don't want it and that's kind of awesome. You know she don't want it and that's kind of awesome. And she like she's just like clever and like interesting. And the thing you remember about her you know playing solitaire, like I don't know. There's something like really fun about her. So if we only got one, I'm kind of glad it was, madame Mim.
Speaker 2:Kind of like the, you talk about feminine archetype, she is kind of the witch, I mean she's the.
Speaker 1:She's a witch and a crone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she's like both Like the zero fucks to give postmenopausal. Like I am not dealing with this man's bullshit, breaking the rules, like it's kind of that. Like oh, this white dude, it's kind of that like oh, this white dude, sure, you can make rules, fine.
Speaker 1:Do whatever, except she's the one who makes the rules. She's the one who makes the rules All right, fair enough. It's not him. She makes them to break them. Fair enough, yeah, yeah, so we got that out of the way, like I actually don't have anything else to say about gender in this one.
Speaker 1:Well, actually I do, I do the squirrels, the squirrels. So there are four female characters total. There's the maid, who is kind of hag-ish. There's Madame Mim, who is absolutely a hag. There's Madame Mim, who is absolutely a hag. And then there are these two squirrels who are very like sensual, sexual, lovestruck creatures who like really get the raw end of the deal, and also they're chasing these two male squirrels who are clearly not interested, which in one sense, like it's a little bit refreshing, because usually these movies it's the other way around and the female squirrel, or human, is like eventually just worn down and falls in love anyway.
Speaker 2:But it's not okay when it happens in any direction. It's also a male fantasy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I don't have the words for it, but watching it this time, there was something disturbing about this picture of femininity that was so oblivious and just lovesick, sex crazed like crazy that's all there was to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the sum total of the personality, and there was something disturbing about that, especially thinking about, like you and me, as little kids watching well, and the the fact that merlin's lesson is love is stronger than magic, which I don't think is necessarily like, and considering the arthur legend and includes guinevere and lancelot and that love triangle, and that is the only thing that causes lancelot to not be like a perfect knight, and all of that that is within the story of the original myth. So I think that's actually a worthwhile lesson within a children's movie, except that it's at the expense.
Speaker 1:It's at the expense of these two creatures female creatures female life and it also was not actually the lesson. He called it love. That's not what we saw on the screen. What we saw on the screen was attraction.
Speaker 2:It's messy, it's messy and it's, and it was playful. That's really what it comes to is. It's the fact that we are given a chance to feel pity for the squirrel that fell for wart, but overall, the entire thing is played for slapstick for both of these squirrels. And isn't it so funny how boy crazy girls are, rather than it being like. Love is a force more powerful than magic, which I think is is a worthwhile thing to think about, think about and tell children about and say like be cautious, recognize that this is that love is a powerful force and it can cause people to do things that are irrational and can really, really hurt people. So be cautious. Yeah, yeah, I remember always feeling terrible for that poor squirrel who we watched her cry and she risked her life.
Speaker 2:She risked her life to save.
Speaker 1:Wart.
Speaker 2:And the fact that Merlin says squirrel's mate for life, which I don't know if that's true or not. I don't either. I didn't look it up, but Merlin tells in the universe of this animation, and so I'm sitting there going like this poor heartbroken squirrel is going to, for the rest of her life, be lonely well made for life doesn't mean mate once.
Speaker 1:I mean, the squirrel that she was in love with is dead. Yeah, because he's a boy. Yeah, a human boy.
Speaker 2:I think the widow can find another squirrel well, that's not how it works for like swans who make for life. If they're, yeah, if their mate dies, they're done yeah, poor swans so that's just, I'm like, just a little romantic emily as an eight-year-old just remembered, like I remember, like through that being like, I'm feeling for the squirrel and feeling for wart, knowing that as a little menschley boy, knowing he'd, he'd have a pang for her he does, he says, like I tried to tell you and knowing every once in a while.
Speaker 1:He actually feels bad.
Speaker 2:Every once in a while, he'd be thinking about this world, going like I'm sorry, you know. Yeah, as a king, going like maybe I could leave some acorns for her, yeah, so.
Speaker 1:So let me talk about Merlin for a second. So let me talk about Merlin for a second. So, like as a kid, the references to the 20th century were hilarious. They were so funny.
Speaker 2:I remember the Bermuda shorts charming me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was really charmed by the references to the 20th century. Or, like I can't wait for the London Times. Or like you know, he talks about helicopters and even the mention of television and whatever. Like I was very, very charmed by that anachronism. It's kind of like a dramatic irony which you love.
Speaker 2:Which.
Speaker 1:I love. But within the universe it's actually kind of annoying and irresponsible. Like at one point he's teaching Wart and he talks about how we're going to discover that the world is round, and Wart's like you mean it's going to become round? He's like no, no, it's round right now. And Archimedes is like if he goes around saying that the world is round now, people are going to think he's a lunatic, he can't handle it. Like stop, you can't give this 11th century kid, 20th century or whatever, I don't even know if it's 11th century, but you can't do this. And so Archimedes takes over as tutor. Archimedes isn't a great tutor either because, like work, can't read. And so Archimedes is teaching him the alphabet and he's like writing on a chalkboard and he's not doing a great job. He does some letters backwards and Archimedes like smacks him on the head and like says can't you get anything right?
Speaker 2:Like he's not a great tutor either.
Speaker 1:But better than Merlin. You know I didn't see that as a kid, that sort of he's not a great mentor.
Speaker 2:no-transcript it's more of a straight fantasy story. There's not the humor or the references. Like I think, merlin can see the future but he doesn't travel, doesn't have time travel, because this disney and he doesn't make humorous references, he just knows yeah.
Speaker 1:So what I was getting at in terms of storytelling and he's a teacher is that what's missing from this film? Like we have these vignettes of like he turns them into a bunch of different animals, and what's missing is how those experiences actually change and teach Wart. There's no evidence of that. Like I think it would have been much more satisfied. So we see him pull the sword from the stone. He was just in the right place at the right time and happened to be the right kid. There was no sense in which, like, what he learned from being a fish helped him pull the sword from the stone. Like I think that would have been a much more satisfying kind of story arc if somehow the lessons were lessons that helped him be the right kid. But he was just as you say, he was just ordained.
Speaker 2:There's no agency, there's no growth, there's no like growing into the court, even if his lessons were what led him to be reinstated as the squire. I'm thinking of what I was saying about how Frank Darabont improved on the Shawshank Redemption, where the money was from the warden's corruption right, yes, yes, exactly. If somehow, like he had proven himself on the tournament grounds because of to and fro, yeah, or if Hobbes had gotten sick because of what he learned about germs from Madame Mim's downfall yeah, something, something, something Instead it's just coincidence.
Speaker 1:It's just luck. And so Wart starts this movie as like a mensch. He ends the movie as a mensch. There's not really anything, there's no growth for this kid, and the whole movie is about his education. But we don't actually see how it changes him, how it makes him better suited to be king, how it makes him better suited to be what has he learned it just doesn't, yeah, he just doesn't change, and that's unsatisfying, sort of from a storytelling perspective.
Speaker 1:I'm saying it now because it's also sort of proof that Merlin's not a great teacher. Because we don't actually see any kind of growth in his pupil.
Speaker 2:It feels like this is not a reciprocal relationship. For Merlin, like teaching is like parenting, where it's not about you know father seeing kids, it's about father and kids seeing each other. Teaching is not about like teacher, like imparting knowledge. It's about the teacher and students interacting with each other and exchanging. It's about an exchange so that both are changed by the experience.
Speaker 1:In some way Changed yeah.
Speaker 2:Where Merlin's? No different at the end either.
Speaker 1:No, merlin hasn't changed either. Agreed, agreed. All right, two more things I want to talk about and then I'll wrap up. So one is, I actually want to talk about the humor in this movie because it actually is quite funny. It was funnier when I was a kid, just for the record, but it is quite funny.
Speaker 1:Like Merlin's little asides are pretty funny, his sort of anachronistic asides, and Wart makes some snide asides too, no-transcript. And like merlin's kind of buffoonery with, especially with his beard, he's often trying to prove, like, the merits of the of this future that he can see. So he has this flying machine that's like a little airplane, like a model airplane, and he like winds up the propeller and his beard gets all caught up in it and then when he throws it because his beard was caught up in the propeller, it just plummets down into the moat below and so he was trying to prove that humans will fly in these machines and instead, like this thing falls. Archimedes thinks this is the funniest thing. It is pretty funny, it's amusing. But Archimedes the owl loses it and laughs for a full I don't know 30, 45 seconds with this laughter.
Speaker 1:He can't breathe, he's tears away from his eyes too and he falls down on a window sill that he sort of falls on. He's laughing so hard he's like gasping for breath. That was the only time I actually laughed out loud watching it now as an adult besides the no commercials thing, but like he just kept going and it was infectious and I don't know like whoever, whatever animator or director was like no, keep it going. No, keep going. Like it was the right call.
Speaker 2:So funny. We were just talking about this. Our dad would tell this story when he saw I think it was Blazing Saddles in the theater. There's the scene where all the cowboys around the campfire eating beans and farting and for whatever reason it struck dad. It just tickled dad and he laughed so hard that he was like almost crying and like our dad's laugh is kind of like that, or it was kind of like that where it was so like just over and over, so infectious, just kept going and apparently on his way out the out of the theater he overheard some guy saying like it wasn't that funny, but that jackass just laughing so hard got me.
Speaker 1:So it happens, it happens, it happens, yeah. So I wanted to mention that. So, like, good on, whatever creative made that call, it was the right call, sometimes those just staying in those moments. And then the last thing I wanted to mention actually is the animation style. So, as I said, like I pay closer attention to animation than some, and one of the things I noticed about this one is that has a slightly sketchy kind of a style where you can sort of see in as the cells go, you'll see like a straight line or things. It's just it's a little bit sketchy, which is intentional, I believe, although it reads a little bit as laziness, like this sort of still photos.
Speaker 1:From the beginning I don't think that it was, because there's a lot of work put into hand-drawn animation. But what I but I want to name is that it does feel a little incongruous with the subject, like another commentator on Disney Films, which I'll link this blog in the show notes because I think that I want to give them credit. But another commentator on Disney Blogs noted that it's a similar sort of style sketchy style to 101 Dalmatians, and this commentator and I agree says that 101 Dalmatians sketchy style like works better with the content, because it's sort of like a more whimsical and I mean, this film isn't whimsical, but it's sort of more improvisational, like with a jazz soundtrack and you know the timing time there's it's like a yeah, time frame, it just like sort of fit the actual, like ethos and the vibe, if you will, of the story, in a way that I'm not sure the sketchy style fits this high fantasy, medieval setting like.
Speaker 1:I want it to be more like an engraving and less like a sketch or like an illuminated manuscript sort of, and so that was just something that I am sure I did not notice as a kid. But in rewatchwatch, as I'm watching, I'm like, oh, it's kind of what is. Oh, and there's also, like they reuse like a series, like a you know, a scene, so like when Kay is being reprimanded for having let Wart go into the forest. He's like, as I said, he's got his feet up and he's eating meat off of a bone and we see the same like 30 seconds of film like three times in the film which, again, as a kid I never noticed. Now I'm watching and it was another thing that made me think like, oh, that's kind of lazy, which again, I don't like using that word.
Speaker 2:Like I think that and I'm immediately like no, it's smart to reuse, yeah, but, and I'm immediately like no, it's smart to reuse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but my first reaction to it was oh, they're reusing.
Speaker 2:That's, you know, like a shortcut of some kind. We saw that in Disney's Robin Hood too, Like there were like some like dancing scenes with the little kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in that era I think there was a lot of that it was also like in that era in the 60s and 70s it was a little bit of a nadir. The 60s and 70s it was a little bit of a nadir. Oh yeah, you know like they.
Speaker 1:Just they were still trying to and you have the talent and they didn't have the disney wasn't disney, like it didn't have the kind of the brand power that it has today, and they were still like finding their footing. So, anyway, that was just something that I wanted to note on air.
Speaker 2:Any final thoughts before I try and wrap up, when I got to where I was reading Le Morte d'Arthur and actual King Arthur myths, as well as Once and Future King and stuff like that, I realized that Sword in the Stone did Sir Kay and Sir Ector wrong, because they're not jerks in the original, it doesn't matter, you need. I mean like, when you reiterate old stories, things change and this is not like Amadeus that really did Moliere wrong, who was a real person. I I remember being like, oh no, he really was his brother and like cared about him, about Sir Kay. But that was just one thing that I know really surprised me when I like ended up like reading the myths later on the King Arthur myths, and I was just like, okay, I got to make sure I recognize that these stories change depending on who's telling them.
Speaker 1:All right, let me see if I can remember what we talked about. So, regarding gender, does not pass Bechdel, not even the first question, and Madame Mim is a pretty awesome female character. The squirrels the female squirrels get done dirty. It's played for laughs but it's actually kind of not funny. Regarding gender, we're told the words that Merlin says is that magic won't solve all your problems, but then he uses them to solve problems and there's really not. There's not much of an examination of that.
Speaker 1:Interestingly, wart is completely unfazed by magic, whereas everyone else that we meet which is not that many people are very phased by it. Like, even when they're doing like this maid, whose chores are being done by magic, is like freaked by it. Like, even when they're doing like this maid, whose chores are being done by magic, is like freaked out by it. So that's worth noting.
Speaker 1:In terms of storytelling, I noted that there's no protagonist because no one grows and changes, which is kind of unsatisfying as an adult. Like it feels like there's an opportunity for what Wart learns as a fish and as a squirrel and as a bird to make him a better king or better suited to be the one to be the king or win the squire ship back or something, but it doesn't actually seem to have any effect on him whatsoever. To have any effect on him whatsoever, and that to me, is also additional proof that Merlin's kind of a shitty teacher, like it's his one, like prime directive and he's not very good at it. Like both in terms of pedagogy, because he's teaching this medieval child 20th century science which is just misplaced and he gets mad at him for being a medieval child and also like none of his lessons seem to make a difference, like within the story.
Speaker 2:It's not just misplaced, it's also kind of irresponsible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, irresponsible. So we also noted I noted sort of there's a couple of kinds of humor. We get sort of the anachronistic humor which was very charming to sort of the 20th century children. We were to have that a little bit of a dramatic irony with Merlin, like making including from Wart, which is actually really fun, and then Archimedes, like laughing for like a full 30 seconds until he's gasping for breath, which I couldn't help but laugh, while this owl is like laughing his face off.
Speaker 1:Forget, oh, the animation style. There were several moments that my initial reaction was like oh, that's kind of lazy, which I immediately questioned because there's nothing lazy about hand-drawn animation. And there were shortcuts that sort of showed up for me and like affected my viewing of the movie, at least as an adult. I'm pretty sure I didn't see them as a kid. I also noted in the very beginning the fact that in my mind this is paired with Disney's Robin Hood, which is 10 years later, in 1973, but and has some similarities to it and in some ways, like I find Robin Hood more charming, like in part, I found myself like expecting the illuminated manuscript to be animated the way that the rooster bard is in Robin Hood, because they start in similar ways, with a book opening up and a narration reading it. What am I forgetting?
Speaker 1:Oh, you talked about in terms of the source material. I think that the Once and Future King the series actually does have Merlin's lessons, make Arthur a better king, and that you actually see that happen. I think that's the case. I haven't read it, but that's my understanding. And you noted that in the broader mythos of the Arthurian legend, like ecosystem, that other versions of Sir Hector and Kay are not nearly as uncaring as this Disney version, and that's interesting to note. Oh, you also pointed out the fact that the sort of love is a powerful force. Message is not a bad message, even in a kid's movie, especially within, again, the ecosystem of the Arthurian legend, where there is like a powerful love triangle that wreaks havoc, and also that's not actually what we saw on screen in the squirrel vignette.
Speaker 2:You told me this that I didn't know. I have an acquaintance who went to school for animation and she told me something that you backed up that one of her assignments was to draw the same character 300 times each week. And when you learned that, that was when you're like, oh I don't know if I want to go to animation school, which I had no idea. I had no idea that about you. She had gone to school, I think, in the mid-80s, and so for further proof that there is no such thing as laziness in hand-drawn animation, like an understanding of how much goes into these and why we have such appreciation for them here, on Deep Thoughts into these and why we have such appreciation for them here on Deep Thoughts.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I did have fun watching it, so next week I actually I switched out.
Speaker 2:I was originally going to be talking about Golden Girls. I will be talking about that soon, but next week, because of the recent news about Stephen Colbert's show being canceled, I'm doing V for Vendetta. We generally don't try to be topical here because you know the production schedule doesn't allow it, but because of what's going on in society right now, v for Vendetta is on my mind, so I wanted to do that next week. So Look forward to hearing your deep thoughts.
Speaker 1:I'll see you, then this show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Share the show with your people.