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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
The Shawshank Redemption: Deep Thoughts About Friendship, Slow Storytelling, and the Role of Prisons in American Pop Culture
Though it's now consistently named #1 on IMDB's top 250 list of classic movies, Frank Darabont's 1994 film The Shawshank Redemption started out as a commercial flop with no pop culture cache. It's understandable why Shawshank struggled to find its audience: there's no romance or women, the storytelling is slow with anything resembling action occurring in the final 30 minutes, and nearly the entire film takes place within the walls of a prison. But just as the story takes its time to explore the psychology of Andy Dufresne, the innocent banker who refuses to let the brutality of prison break his spirit, the film itself took its time to find that audiences appreciated its message of hope, resilience, and redemption.
In this episode, Emily never once utters the phrase "shenanigans ensue" about this gorgeous film. She and Tracie unpack the cognitive dissonance of this film topping Americans' list of favorites even while our country's prison system continues to institutionalize men like Red, Brooks, and Andy and discuss the Christian allegories within the film that they may have missed, as nice Jewish girls. The sisters also discuss the rarity of watching male friendship on screen and how Andy's view of money resonated with Emily even before she became a financial writer.
I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy listening on your headphones or get busy listening on your bluetooth speaker.
Content warning: Discussion of sexual assault and physical and emotional abuse
Mentioned in this episode:
Why ‘The Shawshank Redemption’ is the best movie about investing ever made
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
We are able to say like oh, that person deserves it. Like so easily if we can like trace it back to like whatever they did to begin with and that is, like so perfectly encapsulated with the American prison system.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know what's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Speaker 1:I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit. I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? Today, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1994 Frank Darabont film, the Shawshank Redemption, with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you, let's dive in. So, tracy, I'm pretty sure you've seen this film. I have. Tell me what's in your head about it.
Speaker 2:Like I have like a whole bunch of like Polaroids in my head from this film, so like I don't know that I actually have a plot, but like I have Polaroid like vignettes, like I know the guy was accused of killing his wife and he didn't do it and he ends up in jail and he's really good with money and like cooks, the books for the warden, which gets him special treatment, including like his rapist gets beaten till he's paralyzed.
Speaker 2:But also the guy who actually did kill his wife gets shot and they make it look like he's trying to escape so the warden can keep him and he gets out with his rock cutting thing that's inside the Bible and he's friends with what's his name, Morgan Freeman. And this sounds like a fever dream the way you're describing it. Totally, that's how it is in my head. And the warden discovers he's escaped when he throws one of the little figurines he's carved out of stone through a poster of Raquel Welsh that's covering the hole, oh, and he gets out through a shit tunnel. So that's what I remember about Shawshank Redemption. So why are we talking about it today? What's special about Shawshank Redemption?
Speaker 1:So this is a film that's really beloved. If it's not number one, it's consistently in the top five on IMDb, which is like user-generated, like most favorite movies of all time most favorite movies of all time. It's a little film that could. It was a critical darling when it came out, but it did not make back how much the studio put into it. It made $16 million at the box office when it came out in 1994, which I don't remember how much they spent on it, but it was not a huge amount of money. I mean talking millions. It's a lot to us but not for studios. It was something like they spent $25 million and they made $16. So it was a flop and there were a couple of reasons for that One. They didn't know how to market it.
Speaker 1:It is a very slow-moving movie. There are pretty much no women in it. The story takes place over 20 years. There are no car chases. There are, like it's a character study. Basically.
Speaker 1:The title is, admittedly, baffling and hard to say. I remember it came on TV when I was in France, while I was living with a host mother, and I was so excited I was like, oh, the Shawshank Redemption. And she was like the sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh. And she spoke English very well, but she was like, and I was trying to explain it to her and she was just like baffled. So there's that Also, like movies with the word redemption in it, just they don't sound like a great Saturday night. So there's a number of reasons why it just didn't. And then movies set in prison were not box office gold. And then movies set in prison were not box office gold, but it made its money and its legacy through word of mouth and VHS tapes and also through the sense that people discovered it, and so that is how it became this enormous phenomenon. I am not certain, but I think that the way that I saw it for the first time was my high school boyfriend introduced me to it. I think that's how I saw it for the first time, and I didn't see it from the beginning. I think I went over to his house it was on. He was like, oh, haven't you seen this? And we watched it.
Speaker 1:Now, why I'm bringing it today is because I write for Fast Company. I have a fantastic editor and I like to occasionally write about pop culture, financial stuff, and so I was thinking about how the main character in this, andy Dufresne, was a banker before he was falsely accused and convicted of the murder of his wife and her lover, and he's quite good with money and how actually the film both the story of the film and the meta-story of how the film became this phenomenon are an excellent allegory for investing, and so I wrote an article about how Shawshank is this incredible story of how to be a good investor. So that's why I was thinking about it right now. But I also was thinking in this particular time where we are right now in the world, because one of the things that Andy says to Red that's Morgan Freeman's character hope is a good thing, maybe the best thing, and good things never die, and it is something that I need right now in this time in the world. So I was really interested in revisiting this film that I have loved since the first time I saw it, and you know it was just.
Speaker 1:It's a lovely, lovely film that I actually this is another example of. So the film is based on a Stephen King novella called Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption. That is a very nice novella. Frank Darabont improved on it. It is one of three stories that Frank Darabont has adapted to film from Stephen King, and I know that Darabont has improved at least one other. The other one that I know that he improved was the Mist, which he improved it by making it bleak instead of hopeful, although the original Stephen King in this was also hopeful. But we'll get to the improvement.
Speaker 2:Wait, he made it bleak instead of the mist. Oh, oh, oh. But you're saying that the Shawshank was hopeful in the King.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, shawshank was already hopeful, but he improved the plot greatly. All right, I'll get to that. I'll get to that.
Speaker 2:Why don't you remind me of the plot? That's not just my fever dream memory.
Speaker 1:Why don't you remind me of the plot? That's not just my favorite dream memory of a district attorney basically describing the night of a horrible crime. We learn that Dufresne's wife had said that she's glad that he knows she's really unhappy with the sneaking around, that she is leaving him for the golf pro whose name is Mr Quentin and she packed a bag and left to go stay with Mr Quentin, and that Andy Dufresne had gone to several bars and gotten drunk and then he had taken a gun and gone to Mr Quentin's house. In the courtroom scene the DA asked well, what had you planned to do? And he said I don't really know, maybe just scare them. And we see that he got out of the car, he dropped his bottle of whiskey that he'd been drinking. And we see that he got out of the car, he dropped his bottle of whiskey that he'd been drinking and then a couple of bullets dropped as well. And then we see him being sentenced. Andy at one point says like I threw the gun into the river. And the DA says they tried to find the gun in the river and couldn't. Don't you find that convenient? And he is sentenced to two life sentences. And the judge says you're a cold character and it chills me to the bone to see you At that point. We never see things from Andy's point of view again.
Speaker 1:We then go to within the walls of the Shawshank prison this is all taking place in Maine and we see a parole board interviewing Ellis Boyd Redding, played by Morgan Freeman, and Andy Dufresne is played by Tim Robbins. He is in front of the parole board. He has served 20 years of a life sentence and they ask if he has been rehabilitated and he goes oh, yes, sir, yes, sir, of course, and tries to tell them what they want to hear. And we see that they stamp rejected on his form. And in the prison yard afterwards he is talking to some of the other guys and they're like yeah, them's the breaks. I'm scheduled to be rejected next week. Hey, I got rejected last week.
Speaker 1:And they see the bus coming in to bring the new inmates and they are betting with each other over who is going to cry first that night. And Red bets on Andy and through the voiceover Red talks about like it's probably not a great thing to be betting on who cries the first night, but it's something to do. And he bets on Andy because he looked like a stiff breeze would have blown him over and he didn't think much of him when he first saw him. Andy does not cry the first night. Another man does. He's an overweight man and one of Red's friends, haywood, bets on him. He cries to the point where it brings Captain Hadley who is the captain of the guards. It brings Captain Hadley, who is the captain of the guards, who is a cruel, sadistic man who beats him, beats the fat man, and leaves him in the center of the cells. The next morning the rest of the inmates pay up to Haywood who is in a great mood because he's won the bet, and so he asks another inmate who is working the infirmary, like how's my horse, you know? Because that inmate says dead. They left him overnight by the time the doctor came in. Because the doctor had already left by the time he came in this morning. There was nothing anybody could do. And Haywood feels guilty and is lashing out. And Andy asks what was his name? You know and nobody knows and Heywood like lashes out at him.
Speaker 1:We meet a few other inmates, including Brooks who is a very old man. Andy at the meal finds like a grub in his food and like pulls it out, grub in his food and like, pulls it out, and Brooks says to him are you going to eat that? And Andy says I wasn't planning on it and he's like do you mind? Brooks takes it and goes ah, nice and juicy. And Andy's like what are you doing? Brooks opens up his. He's wearing a sweater and inside of it there's like a baby bird and he feeds it to the baby bird and brooks says he fell out of his nest over by the plate factory. I'm gonna hold on to him and take care of him until he can. He's able to fly on his own and he's named him jake and he's a crow. So there is kindness within the walls of shawshank.
Speaker 1:We meet the warden. His name is Warden Norton and Norton is a hypocrite we learned very early on. He says put your faith in the Lord. Your ass belongs to me. You will not take the Lord's name in vain in here. But it's clear that he looks the other way when it comes to the captain beating up the inmates, when it comes to the inmates abusing each other, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:The first two years are very rough on Andy. He comes to the attention of a group known as the Sisters, led by Boggs. Red warns him about them. He says they've taken an interest in you. And Andy says would it help if I tell them I'm not a homosexual? And Red says neither are they. You'd have to be human first, which I think is a very interesting line for 1994. And he says bull queer, they take by force. They don't know anything other than that, andy being cornered by these men and Red saying over, like in voiceover. I wish I could say Andy fought the good fight and fought them off. But life in Shawshank was no fairy tale. And it talks about how, every once in a while, andy would show up with fresh bruises and he would never say who did it. But we all knew and nothing would happen to Boggs and his gang. It continued that way until 1949.
Speaker 1:In the spring of 1949, the roof of the license plate factory needed to be retard and they needed about a dozen volunteers to do that. Now, red is the kind of guy who can get things for you. So he's got this kind of like underground smuggling that he can do. So he's got connections, and so it just so happened that he and a few of the guys he knew got the job to do the tarring. So it only cost them a packet of smokes each to do that. And Red got his 20%, his usual 20%. They're tarring the roof.
Speaker 1:When they hear Captain Hadley complaining that his brother died and left him $35,000, which I looked up and it's I think it was like $450,000. So it's in 2025 money, so it's a significant chunk of change he's complaining because he's going to have to pay so much in taxes and this, that and the other. And Andy, because he was a banker on the outside, his ears have perked up. So he wanders over to the captain and his friends is like I think he's about to have an accident and almost has him over the edge of the roof when he says because if you trust your wife, there's no reason you can't keep every single penny of that money would have figured out, you would have known. You know. But like it'll cost you if you to pay a lawyer to do the paperwork. But I would do it for almost free. Do the paperwork, you just need to get the papers. The only thing I'd ask is three beers a piece for each of my coworkers.
Speaker 1:And so he ends up getting the beers and from there, because the prison was guards and warden and all know that he is very good with money. They start relying on him to do financial stuff. Now I forgot to mention prior to this he first met Red because he had asked him, like within the first month or so of being there, to acquire him a rock hammer, which is it's like a, he said like a small pickaxe that you use for carving rocks, because he was a rock hound on the outside and he wants to continue that hobby on the inside as much as he can. It would be contraband but he can hide it. It's something that Red can get for him. So from that he had been working in the laundry.
Speaker 1:So the warden has him start working in the library. He doesn't say why. He just says I'm going to have you be Brooks's assistant. Library is in the basement and it's like all moldy Reader's Digest, condensed books and Louis L'Amour and stuff, and so he's like why would you need an assistant? And then Hadley brings another guard down and says that's the one and leaves and the guard says I wanted to set up a trust for my kid's education and so it's clear that they want someone to give sound financial advice. So he's a pet and because they can do that for basically free. They allow Andy to have his own pet project, which is he wants to improve the library, and so he starts. He asks the warden for money for the library. The warden says no. So he says, well, what if I write directly to the state senate and the warden says they're going to say no? He's like, well, what if I write them every week? They can't ignore me forever. And the warden says, well, yes they can but write to them.
Speaker 1:If it makes you happy I'll even mail the letters for you. And so Andy starts sending them a letter every week. During that time we see Brooks ends up getting paroled. He has been there for 50 years. He is now in his 70s. He is upset when he gets paroled and he actually takes a knife to Haywood to try to be allowed to stay. And Brad explains to like the, because Andy doesn't understand it. He explains he's been institutionalized inside here. He's an important man, he's an educated man. Out there he's nothing. He's been institutionalized Like these walls. At first you hate them and then you get used to them and then they become like a kind of safety. You rely on them. So we see Brooks at this point.
Speaker 1:It is now 1955. He has been on the inside for his entire life. He's in a halfway house. He gets a job bagging groceries. He's got arthritis so his hands hurt all the time. He had seen an automobile once when he was a kid and now they're everywhere. And so he sends a letter to the inmates saying he had to let Jake the crow, who's all grown up, go because he can't take care of him anymore. You see him feeding birds, hoping that Jake maybe might show up and say hi. But he doesn't. And so he says I decided I don't want to stay anymore and I doubt anyone will kick up a fuss for an old crook like me. And so in the like lonely old room in his halfway house he packs his bag, he carves brooks was here in the like railing at the top of his room and then he hangs himself and it's just heartbreaking. We see red have his 30-year parole hearing where he says the same thing oh yes, yes, I've been rehabilitated and he's again rejected attacks the lead, sister Boggs, so that he never walks again and is transferred to a minimum security hospital. And no one ever touches Andy again.
Speaker 1:Around the same time that Brooks dies, warden Norton starts an initiative called the Inside Out program where he has his inmates doing work for all kinds of programs like building highways, fixing infrastructure, building buildings and things like that. But it's all a grift, they're basically slave labor. So because he can undercut any bid, he receives kickbacks from companies so that they can get the bids. We see one person saying like I'm going to go under if I don't get this contract and so giving him a bribe. And so Andy is the one doing all of this, getting all of this dirty money and then laundering it. Andy's explaining to Red that he has created a false persona named Randall Stevens, who is the one behind all of that, so that he can launder the money, so it will never come back to either Norton or Andy, so that there's no real person to blame. And Andy says because he knows the system, he knows the cracks in the system. So Randall Stevens has a birth certificate, a social security card, a driver's license and all of that, and he's got the bank accounts in a dozen different banks all over Portland and so he's the one that you can blame and so he's the one handling all that. And Andy says you know, I was an honest man on the outside. I had to come to prison to become a crook. And Red says do you want to be doing this? He says, well, because I do this, I'm allowed to take care of the library because it works him sending these letters. He sends one a week and after six years they sent him a box of remaindered books from the library and $200. So he starts sending two a week until they realize he's not going away. And they send $500 a year and they have the best prison library in New England that they make the Brooks Hatland Memorial Library.
Speaker 1:After Dear Brooks, tommy Williams comes in for a two-year stint for breaking and entering Andy, takes him under his wing because he'd never gotten his high school diploma to help him get his GED. And at that point Andy has learned not to talk about what brought him there because everyone claims they're innocent. And so he says what everybody says I'm innocent, lawyer fucked me. And so it's after Tommy has taken the GED and is certain he's failed it and is really angry and feels like he's let Andy down, that he's talking to Red and says what brought him here, why is he here? And Tommy has been in prisons all throughout New England Like he's just kind of a ne'er-do-well fuck up. And Red tells him what happened and Tommy goes white and he says he had a cellmate who bragged about having killed a man and the tasty bitch he was sleeping with and that some banker got fingered for it and went to prison for it.
Speaker 1:So Andy goes to the warden to tell him like we can reopen my case. The warden at first says like oh, it's clear, this young man looks up to you and you know I'm sorry, you're taken in by it. And Andy is like are you kidding? No, there's going to be records. There's enough that we can reopen my case. And then the warden continues to kind of kindly put it down until Andy calls him obtuse and then says you can be assured, I will never say anything about what goes on in here.
Speaker 1:And then the warden puts him in solitary for a full month While he is in solitary. And while he is in solitary the warden asks to speak to Tommy alone outside and says like I need to be sure that I'm making the right decision here. Are you telling the truth about what you heard from? That cellmate Would up and gives a signal and the captain shoots Tommy. And so the warden then comes down to where Andy is in solitary and says it's a shame, he only had a year to go, young man like that. And Andy says it all stops, I'm not helping you anymore. He's like, oh, nothing stops, you're going to be gone from that one bunk. Hilton. I'm going to cast you down with the sodomites. You're going to think you've been fucked by a train. You're going to continue. Yeah, it's ugly, it's all going to continue and everything continues. And that library you built. We're going to have a book bonfire. We're going to see it all the way in Portland, all the books being burned. And then he says give him another month to think about it. So he has two full months in solitary.
Speaker 1:When he gets out, he and Red talk. Andy says I killed my wife. I didn't pull the trigger, but she always said I was a hard man to know God. I loved her, but I didn't know how to show her and so I pushed her away and that's why she died. And Red said that you didn't kill her, like you were a bad husband maybe, but that didn't mean you killed her. And so Andy says to Red when you get out of here, I want you to go to this hayfield in Buxton. There's a tree there and there's a rock wall. You're going to find a rock that has no business being in a main hayfield Underneath of that. There's something there that I left for you. And then he tells him about this town in Mexico called Zuantaneo. It's right on the Pacific Ocean. The Mexicans say that the Pacific has no memory. That's where I want to spend the rest of my life.
Speaker 1:Red's concerned because he's like I've never seen Andy like this. And Haywood says like, oh goodness, like he asked for a length of rope today and they're worried that he's going to be like Brooks. We see him doing the work for the warden, like he always did, you know, like three deposits tonight putting things in the safe, like he always did. And so we see Red saying like I've spent some long nights in stir that was the longest one I ever spent because I didn't know what was going on with Andy. The next morning they do, you know, the check for everyone, and Andy doesn't come out of his cell. And so guard comes in and goes holy mother of God, and we still don't know what's going on. And then we find out he's missing, he's not in his cell, so at least he's not dead. And the warden is like he had asked Andy to shine his shoes. And he goes to put them on the next morning and it's Andy's shoes.
Speaker 1:And we find out that Andy had tunneled through his wall over 19 years with that rock hammer and had covered it up with the poster of Rita Hayworth, which then became Marilyn Monroe, which finally had become Raquel Welch, and learn that over time Andy had put together all of these different things so he had stolen the suit from the warden. He had stolen the ledger with all of the information and had switched it with the Bible, because the warden gave everyone a Bible at the beginning and the Bible is where he had been hiding his rock hammer. Salvation did lie within, yes, and we have that wonderful scene of when he gets out, when he has crawled through the sewage pipe, and gets out and is in the rain and is with his face up to the rain, and then the next morning he stops at every single bank where Randall Stevens had an account and withdraws the money from the account because he has the Social Security card, randall Stevens' Social Security number, and the license and the signature is a perfect match, right. So he left town with $370,000 of the warden's ill-gotten gains, which in 1966, which is in 2025, it was about $3.7 million. And then at the first bank, we see the banker say is there anything else we can do for you? And he says could you put this in your outgoing mail for me? And it is the ledger. And he mails it to the Portland newspaper. And so we see the DA arresting the Captain Hadley, the captain of the guard, and then coming to arrest the warden. The warden wasn't going to go quietly. He has a gun, he has it aimed at the door and as they're knocking on the door they said come on, warden, make it easy on yourself. And he like looks, and then he points it at his chin and kills himself. And Red's voiceover says I'd like to think the last thing that went through the warden's mind before the bullet was how did Andy get him? Best him? So we then see Red go through the next year, because it's one year later, is his 40th year in prison, and his parole board.
Speaker 1:This one is different, because they ask him have you been rehabilitated? He's like I don't know what that word means. And they start well, it means he's like I know what you think it means, but it's a bullshit word. And he basically says like it's what you like, it's a reason for you to wear a suit and tie and have a job. And he's like well, are you sorry for what you've done? And he's like I look back on that kid who did that terrible crime and I wish I could talk to him. I wish I could tell him like what's what, but I can't. That boy is gone and all that's left is this old man. So you know, just stamp your stamp, because I don't have time for this shit. And they release him.
Speaker 1:So we see him going through.
Speaker 1:He basically gets the same life that Brooks did and we see that it suits him as badly as it did Brooks. And the only thing that keeps him from going down the same path Brooks did is the promise he made to Andy. So he goes to that field and he finds what Andy buried and it's a tin box and in it is an envelope full of cash and a letter that says you've come this far. Are you willing to come a little farther? Do you remember this name of the town? I need a man to help me, because Andy had said he wants to get a worthless old boat and fix it up and he wants to start a hotel.
Speaker 1:And so Red says I'm going to break the law for the second time in my life, parole violation this time and he says and I doubt anyone's going to kick up a fuss for an old crook like me, just like Brooke said and we see him buying a bus ticket and he's like I'm so excited I can hardly sit. Still, I can't wait to see my friend again. And the last moment we see is them on the beach. Andy is fixing up an old boat and Red approaches him, and apparently this was the first scene they filmed which worked out well because they didn't know each other that well. And so there's that hesitancy of friends who haven't seen each other in a while, but they're glad to see each other, and then we see them embrace and that's the end of the film.
Speaker 2:Wow, you did not say, shenanigans ensue. There are no shenanigans that ensue. So where do you want to start?
Speaker 1:All right, I'm going to start with dehumanization, because I've been thinking about how part of what goes on with this film is part of the story of the American prison system and that's part of like human nature, but we see it over and over again in this film. So, by deciding that someone who has committed a crime is no longer human, we are okay with whatever happens inside the prison system. Okay, well, the ones who are actually innocent are like. They deserve our pity and our compassion, you know, and like. What's remarkable about this film is that we get the. We are given the opportunity to feel compassion for everyone and even though we see sympathetic characters dehumanizing others. So, like Heywood at the very beginning, like the fat man who cries and dies, heywood calls him fat ass and is indirectly responsible for his death. But we like Heywood. Heywood's a good guy.
Speaker 1:Heywood did something horrific because he's there for 20 years at least, because he's been there before. He's been there a long time. He's a lifer, but he's a friend and he did something awful and was dehumanizing. He was not the one who suggested that they do this, but he was real all in on. Like, all right, we're going to see which of these fish cry because that's what they call them the new fish. So like it's just this very interesting examination of how complex humans are, and I feel like Andy is one of the few characters who doesn't like, because his first question is does anybody know his name? And you know, I was thinking about the fact that Hadley beats up Boggs once. It's clear that Andy is useful and it's not a kindness, this is not to protect Andy because he likes him, it's because Andy's useful and we don't want to hurt that brain, right? You?
Speaker 2:know it's interesting too, though, like so you're pointing to the fact that Andy is like one of the few characters who maybe doesn't have that both and. But it's interesting because I'm not sure at least based on the way you just described the plot, I'm not sure that it in a first viewing that he could be guilty of killing his wife and her lover. So it's true that in retrospect he's sort of like a stand-up guy all the way around, except for the money laundering, but we don't know that.
Speaker 1:And he did for complex characters. He did get drunk and take a gun to, I mean, that's to the guy's house where his wife was Right. And last night, as I was watching it, I had this thought that like where's his grief over his wife? And then I was thinking like well, she said he's a hard man to know and like throughout he plays everything close to his vest. So like just because we don't see his grief for his wife doesn't mean he's not feeling it. So I was thinking about that dehumanization, in part because right near our house there is a new billboard up that says imagine going to a music festival and never coming home and it's in reference to the October 7th attacks in 2023 in Israel, and because I see so many signs that are pro-Palestinian in a way that is worrisome that it is worrisome because it is like erasing, dehumanizing Israelis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's dehumanizing Israelis and erasing the agency of.
Speaker 1:Palestinians, so it ends up dehumanizing israeli, dehumanizing israeli and erasing the agency of palestinians that, so it ends up dehumanizing palestinians as well. Exactly, I was thinking about that as I drove past it this morning and about how, like, how, we are able to say like, oh, that person deserves it, like so easily if we can like trace it back to like whatever they did to begin with and that is like so perfectly encapsulated with the American prison system.
Speaker 2:And then, especially when it comes to like prison rape is a joke so commonly in American culture, yeah, I was just thinking that that Red says you have to be human first to be homosexual, which is an interesting like in your in this, this specific thread that you're pulling on about dehumanization. Wow, I'm not sure where to go with that.
Speaker 1:Well, it's a, it's a moment that I'm glad was in a 1994 movie, in a moment that was taking place in 1947. Yeah, because it could so easily have just been homophobic.
Speaker 2:Right, but instead it actually divorced homosexuality from the sadism.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, it was making it clear like they're not doing this because they're gay. Yeah, this is not about sexual pleasure.
Speaker 1:This is about deviance in terms of, like, sadism in terms of power, yeah, yeah, and they are no different from Ward and Norton and Hadley, Right? So that, like I, just I find it really fascinating, Right, so so that, that, like I, just I find it really fascinating, and what is like really lighting up for me is like the fact that this is such a beloved movie for Americans when we have such a problem with our prison system. Like, yeah, Talk about both.
Speaker 2:And I mean. In some ways it makes sense, though, because it allows us to feel like we're doing the right thing, because, like, oh, but I love Shasha. Yeah Right, I feel the same way about To Kill a Mockingbird. You know like people can love To Kill a Mockingbird without doing anything at all to fix the bias in the so-called justice system. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And that actually, that brings me a little bit to I hadn't seen it and it's because, like, we're nice Jewish girls but people see Andy as a Christ figure, which once it was pointed out to me I was like, oh yeah, of course they do. And even the way he stands in the rain I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, like death and resurrection. Okay, okay, I gotcha.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they think he's dead. They think he's dead when the morning, but the cave is empty.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh, yeah. And even like there's a removal of the rock. There's even like there was a suggestion that the moment with the beers is like the Last Supper, which I was like I'm not following you here, but okay, because he didn't partake, I don't know, I don't like it. Okay, he has disciples and like he is without sin, unlike the rest of his disciples, unlike the rest of us. There is the moment where he plays the opera, which everyone stops and listens, and it actually we see men in the infirmary rise from their beds. So he like actually even heals the sick. So like I think that's all right on, I definitely see that, although Darabont makes it clear that he did not mean it that way, and I think Tim Robbins is atheist and is just like yeah, nah. So I think that goes to how Americans can love this film and not necessarily hate it, see the irony and the hypocrisy of it being an indictment of our prison, an indictment of our prison system, and still love this movie and not do anything about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then there's also the fact that we never learn any backstory of the horrible crimes that any of these characters committed, with the exception of Tommy, who he's a petty, petty crook like was there for breaking and entering. It's all like small time crime, so breaking and entering. He stole a car, like it's a bunch of little things that he's done, like a little bit of time for every time. And so the film is set up in a way where we can see the humanness of these men, without knowing the monstrousness that they are also capable of, while showing us the monstrousness that they are also capable of, while showing us the monstrousness, the mundane monstrosity, of the warden and the guards Right, which that's part of what makes it an effective film. But at the same time, every single man and woman who is serving time is also human, no matter what they have done Right, and they are just as capable of salvation and redemption as Red and Haywood and Brooks. So it's a both end. It's a both end.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I want to talk about money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's talk about money. I mean, it's you, it's me.
Speaker 1:So one of the things that, like this movie, always appealed to me, in part because money's a tool for Andy and I actually I suspect that Stephen King, just based on a couple of the things that I've read about him I've read of his that he doesn't necessarily look at money the way that I do, but just the way that he was raised and a couple other things I think he looks at money as a tool, sort of the way that I do, because I really appreciated that for Andy, money wasn't just his job as a banker, like that, it wasn't just what he did on the outside While he was listening to the guard complaining about this inheritance, like the rest of Haywood and Red were like, yeah, poor Hadley, it's got to be rough, it's got to be rough it's got to be rough.
Speaker 1:You know, $35,000 falling in your lap. Andy didn't just hear that and go meh, meh, meh, meh and go, which is a natural reaction. He is like already two, three steps ahead, going like I know what is going on with that, I know how to help him, I know how helping him could help me and I know I can take a calculated risk right now by approaching him, because approaching him is risky. I mean he could have, if he had not timed it right, killed him. He could have ended. Who think about money that way, think about money that way, people who tend to have that nature Also. The other thing I appreciate about Andy as a character is that he thinks about letter a week to the state Senate. He recognizes that his punishment is time, but that also means that he has a benefit, a currency. Yeah, he has a currency that the people on the outside don't Right.
Speaker 1:He has a currency to trade in that they just don't have yeah because he has the time to write a letter every week and be a nuisance, Whereas they got kids to pick up from daycare. They have bills to pay, they have shit to do that he's going to be a pain in their ass. He has the time. He has the time to be a pain in their ass and, like other inmates, are not able to see time as a currency that way, Like other inmates are not able to see time as currency that way. Now you do hear about like it's very common to hear about inmates becoming like, really buff because they use the time currency to exercise and stuff like that. Right, that's a lot more common. But using time currency to get a different kind of goal less common.
Speaker 2:And to agitate for the outside.
Speaker 1:Yes, I feel like we also hear about a lot of inmates who read a lot and and actually do, yeah, or they'll educate themselves and stuff like that. But agitating for the outside, using that time currency to affect others outside you'll hear about inmates who become like experts in their own case and that sort of thing. Yeah, but he's agitating for the outside to improve other people's lives, not his own.
Speaker 1:On the inside, yeah, on the inside, yeah, I just find that fascinating, and I feel like that goes hand in hand with that understanding of money as a tool. There's a couple other things I want to talk about. I know we're running low on time, but the other thing that I think think is lovely about this movie is it shows male friendship in a way that is very unusual, because these are two male friends who are not engaging in a car chase, trying to defuse a bomb, fighting over a woman like trying to save a MacGuffin. They are just spending time together and talking Like they play checkers. Andy offers to teach Red chess. They're talking philosophy, they're telling jokes.
Speaker 2:It's an intellectual and emotional intimacy.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you don't ever see that it's beautiful. And like you saw me tearing up when I was saying, when they meet at the end, like Red talks about after Andy is gone before his parole, how much he misses his friend and how excited he is to see his friend when he's on his way to Zoetaneo, and recognizing like Hollywood never recognizes the importance of that kind of intimacy, like in Hollywood we get to see romantic intimacy and we get to see parent to child intimacy.
Speaker 2:That's pretty much it For the most part. Yeah, well, it's sort of slow storytelling. Yes, like to really convey it. Well, it's slow and that's not the way that Americans have been taught to expect their entertainment.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that is part of like. This movie breaks a lot of rules. It's a two-hour and 20-minute movie. It's a long movie. It's a long movie. It takes place over 19 years. Actually, it takes place over 20 years, come to think of it, 1947 to 1967.
Speaker 1:And it doesn't have like a traditional narrative arc. It's kind of a series of vignettes. The action really is in the like last, I don't know third of the film. It's a character study. It's hard to say is. I tend to think that stories with a narrator, even if the narrator is like focusing on one character and that character is supposedly the main character, I think that it's about the narrator is like focusing on one character and that character is supposedly the main character. I think that it's about the narrator. I tend to think that because Red is the one who has a real arc, like he's the one we see change from that first parole board hearing to the end. He goes from being very cynical to accepting Andy's view of hope and Andy doesn't actually change much. No, now he does accept some sort of responsibility for his role in his wife's death.
Speaker 2:Right, even that we're, I think we're meant to question.
Speaker 1:But he is quietly working to just maintain the hopeful, forward-looking, still warm self that he is Right and this is not the life he chose. But he will work to be who he is in the circumstances that he finds himself in. That, I think, is really fascinating. Another aspect that I think is lovely is that this is very much a pushback against toxic masculinity, because Andy is very he's just like a kind of warm, positive masculine character.
Speaker 2:Well, and the men who exhibit toxic masculinity. All are villains. Yes, right, the captain and the warden and some of the other inmates? Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well, and even I mean even Boggs, I mean like he is quote unquote queer, he's queer, but the way he takes by force is certainly toxic masculinity. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so before we hit record, you told me a couple of things you want to talk about. We are already over time, but one of the things that you said that I would love to hear you actually get into is the ways in which this film may be that it was maybe an unintentional tribute to the power of cinema. So tell me more about what you meant by that.
Speaker 1:So there are a couple of times where it's clear that film gives the inmates an opportunity to kind of escape. So when Andy asks Red for the poster of Rita Hayworth, the prison is screening a film of I think it's Some Like it Hot, but no, that's not it. They're screening of Rita Hayworth. The prison is screening a film of. I think it's Some Like it Hot, but no, that's not it. They're screening a Rita Hayworth film. It's the one with Gilda, I think it's Gilda is the name of it, anyway. And so Andy comes to find Red and he's like hey, red. And he's like hold on a second. I just want to see this part. I love this when she does the shit with the hair, where she does the flip with the hair that's so famous. And apparently there was a different movie they were planning on doing. And that's part of the point is that it doesn't really matter what movie it was, because for a moment these men could escape where they were and just see that film.
Speaker 1:And Red says that and Andy says oh yeah, I know, I've seen it three times this month. So he asks Red, can you get me her? And Andy says oh yeah, I know, I've seen it three times this month. So he asks Red, can you get me her? And Red says yeah, but it'll take me a couple of weeks. And Andy goes a couple of weeks. He's like yeah, I don't have her stuff down the front of my pants and at the time it's not clear what they're talking about, but it's the poster.
Speaker 1:As Andy leaves, boggs attacks him and then goes into the room where the film is, like the film canisters are, and the guy who's the inmate, who's manning it, says like I got to change the film. And Boggs and his friends are like beat it, get out of here. So Andy grabs one of the film reels and like hits them with it. Reels and like hits them with it. And so the analysis I was reading was saying like not only is the actual like film that they're watching an escape, but Andy is using the physical film to protect himself. So there's that aspect of it. So it's like a tribute. That's an interesting metaphor. Yeah, it's an interesting metaphor.
Speaker 1:And then the fact that you know it's like a camera lens and so, again, there's this kind of like, it's this tribute to the power of cinema to provide an escape, a sense of story and hope, and so I just I found, found that really fascinating, and that's with Frank Darabont's oeuvre, he that seems like something that he has revisited, not necessarily intentionally, and all filmmakers are film lovers, you know like so it's, of course. And in the same way that, like, writers write about writers and bookstores and libraries and stuff, and there are all these TV shows about TV shows, yeah, exactly. But once that was pointed out to me I was just like, oh yeah, I see that, I can see that. And even the moment with the music all over where all of the inmates are listening, that's not film, but it's the tribute to the power of art to uplift and provide freedom in any circumstance, it's just lovely, it's just lovely, cool, all right, is there anything else that you wanted to make sure that you said before?
Speaker 2:I see if I can reflect back to you your analysis here.
Speaker 1:Just this is. This reiterates what I've talked about a couple of other times, where it's if you make something that you believe in and you make it the best that you can, it will find its audience. Randall Stevens was completely made up by Andy Dufresne. There was no grift from the warden. There were several different wardens and so the money was all Dufresne's and so had nothing to do with the prison, and so just a lot less satisfying if Andy's getting one over on the people who abused him for 20 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, so let me see if I can reflect back to you some of the things that you talked about. So I'm going to actually start with the fact that, like we're over time on this, because this is like a long story, and part of the reason it's a long story is because it's a story about intellectual and emotional intimacy, which is not something that happened. You don't say shenanigans ensue when you're talking about intellectual and emotional intimacy and therefore it's actually not a story that we get very often in Hollywood. It is not the way that Americans have been taught to expect their entertainment, and so there's something really refreshing and beautiful about this, that kind of intimacy in general. You pointed out the fact that the only intimacy we really get out of Hollywood is romantic intimacy or parent-child intimacy, and so this intimacy between two friends, which is not at all romantic or sexual, is unusual and really lovely and had you tearing up when you were thinking about it, and also requires a lot of screen time in order to actually believe it. So, because intimacy is built through trust and time, so it's also the case that you have some resonance with this film. You just wrote that you I don't know if just you wrote an article about sort of this film as like a power of investing, and you notice that maybe Stephen King thinks about money in somewhat similar ways that you do, insofar as money is a tool and so there's less emotionality around it.
Speaker 2:I think is what you're getting at with that. Certainly, andy doesn't have emotionality around money. It is a tool, it is a mechanism through which he can get other things, and telling other people how to do it activates their emotions, which makes him useful. And you noted that he also treats time as a currency when he's on the inside in similar ways, in ways that other folks give up because they get emotional about the continued effort over the time, whereas he just keeps on going and it pays off. So we spent actually considerable amount of time talking about dehumanization and the ways in which this film sort of really holds a both and where we see sympathetic characters dehumanize one another, but we still are meant to sympathize with them.
Speaker 2:There's also this deep irony and hypocrisy in this beloved film, which is in many ways could be seen as an indictment of the American prison system, but which has led to seemingly unchanged attitudes among this population who loves it, about the prison system, and the method of the storytelling sort of somehow contributes to that, insofar as, like the authority in the prison system are all villains and total hypocrites and we see their monstrosity. We don't see the actual crimes of most of our inmates, but we know that they're there. And you pointed out the fact. There's a sort of a Christian allegory, potentially with Andy as a Christ figure. He has no sin, unlike the rest of us, although I pointed out the fact that the both and is there, at least on first viewing with Andy, because we don't know for certain that he didn't kill his wife and her lover until two thirdsthirds of the way through the movie or whatever. So there's a very interesting kind of both and around all of the characters, all of the sympathetic characters at least, and even maybe some of the villains. And regarding dehumanization, there's also that interesting moment where Red Morgan Freeman's character says of the refreshing, because I think it would have been easy to go down the route of demonizing the homosexuality, which does not happen, which I think is really important and positive, and I'm glad that it's there in 1994, set in 1949. That feels like really good and important, let's see.
Speaker 2:You also talked about the ways in which this film what we talked at the end about the ways in which it is a tribute to the power of art in general and cinema in particular there are specific moments where we see the inmates actually sort of escape metaphorically through film.
Speaker 2:There's also sort of metaphors where Andy uses the actual physical film reel canister to protect himself and like the way that shots are framed to make it sort of look like various cinematic moments. That feels a bit like a tribute. A bit like a tribute. I think you also named the fact that like this film sort of breaks some storytelling rules, in part through what I already said about there are no shenanigans and as a result, like it was hard to market the name maybe as confusing, and so it was technically a flop at the box office. But you pointed out that because the filmmaker sort of believed in what he was doing and really like produced a solid product and a good story that had real roots, that eventually it did find its audience and now is, among fan assessments, one of the most beloved American films. So it did in fact find its audience.
Speaker 1:It's also been named by the Library of Congress as a piece of art that is culturally significant, culturally, historically significant. So, yeah, cool, cool.
Speaker 2:So what did I miss?
Speaker 1:in my Just that it rejects toxic masculinity and it, you know, is a clear indicator of like if you write and create something beautiful, you will find your audience.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, you write and create something beautiful, you will find your audience. So, yeah, yeah, I think the last thing I'll say is that you pointed out the fact that this film, that the filmmaker actually improved upon the original source material by sort of tightening the storytelling so that the payoff for andy is also a comeuppance for his abusers. That connection connection was missing in the original King novella and I think that that does like tighten it in a way that makes it very satisfying. Oh, it's so much better.
Speaker 1:I was so disappointed because I saw the movie first, then read the novella and I was so disappointed yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, this was a very big departure from our last, but it was fun. Thank you for sharing your deep thoughts on this, and so next week, I think, we have a guest coming, yeah.
Speaker 1:next week my dear childhood friend Jen Book-Hasselsworth is bringing her deep thoughts on Hook in particular and her lifelong love of Peter Pan in general.
Speaker 2:Cool. I'm excited to have Robin Williams on the show again. Always, all right. See you then. Until then, this show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?