.png)
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Comedy Podcast
80s and 90s movies and early 2000s tv may be called stupid shit by some, but you know it matters. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, sister podcasters who love well-crafted fiction and one another. In this comedy podcast, we look at the classic movies of our Gen X childhood and adolescence, analyzing film tropes to uncover the cultural commentary on romance, money, religion, mental health, and more. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, comedy to drama to horror, we use feminism, our super smart brains, and each other to uncover the lessons lurking behind the nostalgia of pop culture. Come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Comedy Podcast
Titanic: Deep Thoughts About Pop Culture Feminism, Jack as a Trans Man, and the Relative Buoyancy of Wardrobe Doors
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Send us a message! Include how to reach you if you want a response.
Draw me like one of your French girls...
This week, Emily finally introduces Tracie to the pop culture juggernaut Titanic, which the elder Guy sister somehow completely missed. Even in 1997, Emily appreciated how the spectacle, costumes, special effects, and even the storytelling serve writer and director James Cameron's purpose, because the rich girl/poor boy romance allows us to see the entire ship.
But Cameron's purpose doesn't seem to amount to anything more than "this is a thing that happened." Like Cameron's occasional pop culture examination of social class, feminism, and mental health within the 3+ hour runtime, the film shows us things that happened with no moral, thesis, or commentary. Which is why Emily appreciates a fan theory that Jack is actually a trans man. This puts a different spin on the relationship, turning Jack from a Manic Pixie Dream Boy who is practically perfect to a kindred spirit who understands being trapped by society.
No matter your opinion about Jack's ability to fit on that door, throw on your headphones and take a listen!
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
Don't miss out on updates and event invitations from Tracie & Emily! Join the Guy Girls VIP List at guygirlsmedia.com/keepintouch
We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com. For our work together, visit guygirlsmedia.com
We are on socials! Find us on Facebook at fb.com/dtasspodcast and on Insta at instagram.com/guygirlsmedia. You can also email us at guygirlsmedia at gmail dot com. We would love to hear from you!
Introduction to Titanic's Class Divisions
Speaker 1The third-class passengers have to go through a health check where they're checking for lice for them , whereas the first-class passengers don't . We see how tiny the rooms are in steerage , whereas Rose and Cal's staterooms are enormous . It's just huge , huge class differences . This is post-production , emily . I'm here with a little mea culpa . This is post-production , emily . I'm here with a little mea culpa . Throughout the episode you're about to listen to , I keep saying the Titanic sank in 1915 . It sank in 1912 . For some reason , I got my dates mixed up , I think , because it sank on April 15th . I got it stuck in my head that it was 1915 . Please excuse the error .
Speaker 2Other than that , I think you're in for a great episode . You know what's worth talking and thinking about , and so do we , so come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit .
Speaker 1I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit , because pop culture is still culture , and shouldn't you know what's in your head head ? On today's episode , I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1997 blockbuster film Titanic with my sister , tracy Guy-Decker , and with you , let's dive in , literally . So , tracy , I know you haven't seen this film , but you can't have missed it in the zeitgeist . Tell me what you know about it .
Speaker 2Yeah , I don't need to see it . That's why I never have .
Speaker 1It's also a million years long , like a million . Like I started watching it three months ago . I'm still not done watching it .
Speaker 2Right . So what I know about this film , james Cameron it was like very important to him that this be sort of historically accurate . So he studied all of like the photographs and even I went to this museum exhibit that I think was at national geographic like seven or eight years ago , that like had like some of the science of the like finding the wreck and like what they found at the bottom of the sea and plus the movie , plus like the recreations of some of the stuff that had been on the ship . So I know that there was a lot of like attention to historical accuracy for this film .
Speaker 2I know about Rose and Jack and they like connected across a class divide and she was like engaged or something to some blowhard , to some blowhard , and he was an artist and like below her station , class-wise , and at some point she says draw me like one of your French girls , and after they're all in the water , like she's on a door floating and he's like somehow like holding on to the door and like sacrifices himself to let go . And I know there's a huge debate in the culture as to whether or not there was in fact room on the door for Jack . And yeah , I guess that's it . That's what I know . That's what I know . So why are we talking about this historically accurate , very , very long movie from the late 90s ?
Speaker 2that everyone in the world has seen besides me .
Speaker 1So this movie came out . We recently talked about another blockbuster from 97 that you didn't see .
Speaker 1In my defense 1997 , I was in England for half the year as my senior semester abroad and then I was graduating from college , so seeing movies was not exactly my like top , but anyway carry on , and that's actually I bring that up because you were not in a point in your life where getting to the movie theater was a priority , so that's why I bring that up . Whereas I was in the midst of my like , movies were my thing . I went to them weekly . Sometimes I'd see more than one movie a week . That was what I did in high school , so this was one actually . When it came out , I remember saying like I'm not sure I want to see that . It looks really depressing .
Speaker 2I mean , you already know what happens , right , I know how it ends .
Speaker 1But you know , everyone went to see it . I heard that it was an amazing spectacle , just for the costumes like the costuming I wanted to see . Say what you will about James Cameron . Say what you will about James Cameron . He does spectacle right . I mean , he did an amazing job with this movie . The man commits to a bit . He really does . He doesn't do it half-assed , he puts his whole ass out there .
Speaker 2Oh my God , I just broke my sister , she's muted so you can't hear her . Oh man .
Speaker 1So now the reason I've been thinking about it is because I was on social media , I think Threads it's been a few weeks ago where someone was saying , like you know , there are films that people look at as trans allegories , like the Little Mermaid and a couple others , and there's a recent one that I wasn't familiar with . But what are some films that people are unfamiliar like that you wouldn't think of as trans allegories ? And I had read this theory years ago . I'm very as someone who likes to cite my sources . I'm sad that I don't remember where I saw this , but I had read this theory years ago that Jack is a trans man and that explains a bunch of different things about the story . The specific thing that because , as a 18 year old watching this , the Jack and Rose have sex in a car in steerage and you don't see anything but the windows are fogged up in the backseat of the car and then someone's hand is like on the window and like leaves a smear and the placement of the hand and the way that they are positioned feels weird for traditional heterosexual PIV sex . So I had always been like , as an 18 year old , been like exactly what are they doing in there ? And so that was one of the reasons given for , like , an explanation of Jack being a trans man . And then there were several others and I latched onto that theory . I thought that was really cool and that also helped because Jack is kind of a manic pixie dream boy for Rose , like he is perfect in every way and it explains things in a way that makes the romance feel better for me . So I mentioned that . On Threads , I had a conversation with the person on Threads who was like , wow , that is fascinating , that is really interesting and that got me thinking about this movie again and wanting to rewatch it with that in mind , because I hadn't rewatched it when I'd read that theory . So that's why I'm talking about it today and then rewatching it was really interesting because it's been at least 20 years since the last time on that theory .
Speaker 1But I want to talk about some of the weirdness about this movie in that like when I watched it , even as an 18-year-old , I remember leaving the theater going like what's the point of this story ?
Speaker 1Why did I watch this story ? It's not even like because it is a disaster movie , like what we talked about with Independence Day , but it doesn't even give like the kind of comfort of a disaster movie , because it's not exactly the same kind of thing , because we know who's at fault . In this disaster movie we know exactly who's at fault and we see like who's noble and who is cowardly and whose hubris has been brought to bear and like it's moving . There are times when I , even last night , was brought to tears , but at the end of it it just seems like and then that happened and I remember feeling that way in the theater at age 18 . And with the supposed character arc of Rose , if Jack is a cisgender man , I don't really understand other than the spectacle of seeing this . And I'm not saying that we don't need that , because it is important to have this historical understanding of this enormous tragedy but why we're not really humanizing this tragedy exactly the way that James Cameron wants to Like there's no moral of the story , sort of thing .
Speaker 2Yeah , there's not really any there there , like there's no thesis to underline , yeah yeah , it doesn't feel like there is , so there's that to it .
Speaker 1There's also the fact that at the time , there was a lot of talk about how Kate Winslet was so chunky to be the lead . Yeah , I remember that at the time .
Speaker 2Yeah , she's not a big woman .
Speaker 1Yeah , I know when I was watching there was kind of the background information trivia . They were talking about the dress she was wearing was a size four and they intentionally had the coat she was wearing was a size 8 so that it looked bigger on her , so she'd look more vulnerable . I'm like , yeah , size 4 . So big .
Speaker 2Size 4 . I know .
Speaker 1Part of the reason why it felt like there's no point is like there's this kind of discussion , there's this kind of like class distinctions , where they show it over and over again where there are these class distinctions and how Rose is in this gilded cage because
The Titanic in Pop Culture & Context
Speaker 1she is , you know , in the first class and she's being forced into this marriage that she doesn't want , to the point where she's suicidal and she does not have the kind of freedoms and vivacity that the women in the third class clearly have . And the third class passengers are treated like animals and treated like crap . But again , there's not really any point to it . It's just pointed out in the same way that there's this kind of like underlying feminist message . That's just kind of like , and so that's a thing . All of those I think are just . It's very interesting , that I think is worth looking at . And then I have an opinion about the Jack and Rose and the door Excellent , excellent , and I'd like to get to that too .
Speaker 2Excellent . Well , before we get there , can you like give me a little more meat ? I mean not all five million hours , but like what I mean ? Like , basically , my understanding of the plot is like boat people , iceberg disaster , like that's like the plot that I've got so fill me in a little bit more .
Speaker 1When I was in college I had a friend who summarized the film as something about a diamond Pretty lady gets naked , Camera angle sucks Iceberg Ship sinks .
Speaker 2That's about it All right then .
Speaker 1It's a three plus hour movie . There is a frame story where Bill Paxton it doesn't matter what his name is is a modern day , as in 1997 , explorer , underwater archaeologist who is excavating the Titanic , specifically looking for a jewel that no one knows about . He only knows about it because of insurance records , called the Heart of the Ocean , that had belonged to Louis XIV , I think had been purchased by a man named Cal Hockley and had been asked the insurance had paid out for it . After the sinking of the Titanic he finds in a stateroom a safe . They bring it up , they open it , assuming that the jewel be in there , and it's like worth millions of dollars . They do not find the jewel but they do find a portfolio of drawings , including a drawing of a nude woman wearing the jewel , which is put on the news and an extremely old woman sees it on the news and she and her granddaughter contact Bill Paxton saying that is me in that picture , and she comes to the ship where Paxton and his crew are based and tells the story of how she came to be in that picture . So that's Rose . That is Rose , okay . So now Paxton's crew doesn't believe that is Rose , because Rose DeWitt Bukater , who had been a passenger on the ship , was not listed as among the passengers who got off .
Speaker 1Who you know among the survivors ? This woman arrived in New York , rose Dawson , and there's a record of her , rose Dawson , who married someone else and had this career . She was an actress . And so because she was an actress , and although she's the right age she's nearly 101 , they're worried that she's faking . Cameron did a very intelligent thing in order to kind of give the audience an expectation of what will happen . The crew has a simulation of what happened the night of April 14th to the 15th 1912 , of when the ship hit the iceberg , and shows like a kind of a recreation of how the ship sank . And they do it in a very insensitive way to someone who'd survived it , like they do that to Rose , who , I'm like this , is an extremely old woman who this is the most traumatic event of her life . What the hell is wrong with you ? But OK , she then begins telling her story , and the majority of the film is Rose as Kate Winslet . She tells the story they called it the ship of dreams , but for me and she says it was a slave ship because she was being forced to marry Cal Hockley , played by Billy Zane , who , even then . So Billy Zane is so my type . I don't know if he was wearing eyeliner , but he looked like he was . He has the dark hair and the and he's a horrible , abusive , controlling asshole and I was just like , if you just stopped talking and didn't move , I would just like to look at you . But anyway , he's clearly got all kinds of money and we see them bored .
Speaker 1We then also see Jack Dawson , played by Leonardo DiCaprio , and his friend Fabrizio playing poker , and they win tickets onto the Titanic from the people they're playing poker with five minutes before the ship leaves and they just managed to get on before the ship leaves . We end up seeing like and again , I think Cameron did a really intelligent thing in how he handled this . Now , this cross class love story allowed him to do what he wanted , which was show off the ship . So we see Jack and Fabrizio get on . We see that the third-class passengers have to go through a health check , where they're checking for lice for them , whereas the first-class passengers don't , passengers don't . We see how tiny the rooms are in steerage whereas , like Rose and Cal's , state rooms are enormous . It's just huge , huge class differences . We see that the first class passengers are bringing dogs on board and they are bringing them down to third-class decks to have them shit on third-class decks .
Speaker 1So Jack sees Rose at one point and it's love at first sight . He sees her and can't keep his eyes off of her . We also see that he draws . We also see Rose and Cal at dinner and he is already ordering dinner for her . Speaking over her , she lights a cigarette and her mother says to her now Rose , you know I don't like that . And Cal takes a cigarette out of her mouth and says she knows , and stubs it out . And the unsinkable Molly Brown is there and says , after he orders the dinner for her , she says you're going to chew it for her too , cal . And so we get a little bit of the 90s feisty , because she's at the same table with Mr Andrews , who built the ship , and Mr Ismay , who was the idea man behind it . So Mr Andrews designed it and built it and Mr Ismay was the one who wanted it . I wanted it to be big because of safety and I called it Titanic . And so we get some like 90s feminism , like so have you heard what Mr Freud has to say about men's ?
Speaker 2obsession with size . Does Molly Brown say that ?
Speaker 1No , Rose says that .
Speaker 2Molly Brown laughs , oh good .
Speaker 1And Mr Ismay says who is this Freud ? Is he a passenger ? He has no idea . Oh , so he's an idiot too . Yeah , well , and it's also an ignoramus anyway yeah .
Speaker 1So the next night and we hear older roses voiceover saying like I , I saw my life ahead of me and it was nothing . Like I would go where I was told I was going to be parties and cotillions and like I would disappear . And so we see her , like running across the ship , running to the back of the ship where she gets over the railing , and Jack is on the deck and sees her and then goes to talk to her saying , saying you're not really going to do it , and basically talks her down . But as she's trying to get back over the railing again and he says to her if you jump , I jump , I'm invested now . And he takes off his shoes and his coat and she's like that's ridiculous , you can't do that . And he's just like well , I'm not the ridiculous one , you're the one who's threatening to jump . This is just , I have to do this . And he tells her , like he grew up in Wisconsin , when he went ice fishing , he fell in the lake and it's so cold , it's like a thousand knives in your body and basically talks her down . But as she's climbing back over the railing , she slips and he grabs her . But she screams and so people come running and he gets her back over again . But the assumption because it's this upper class woman and this third class steerage man , they are planning to arrest him .
Speaker 1Rose lies and says I slipped when it was an accident . I slipped . I was looking over to look at the propellers and Jack rescued me . And so she manipulates Cal into inviting Jack to dinner the next night . And Cal's valet , lovejoy , is the only one who notices that Jack's jacket and shoes were undone . So this was a lie . But Rose doesn't want anyone to know that she was suicidal .
Speaker 1So the next two days we see Rose and Jack talking to each other more . So Rose sees Jack's art . We have already established that she has an eye for art . She's collected some Picasso and Monet and other artwork and she recognizes Jack's talent . Jack asks if she loves Cal and she refuses to answer . They have a conversation about how his parents have passed away . He is kind of rootless but goes all over the world and that she should learn to do things like a man , like spit , like a man , and ride a horse like a man , not side saddle things like that . And they should . They could go to some place together and ride the roller coaster until they both puke .
Speaker 1They run into molly brown who asks jack , do you have any idea what you're doing ? And he says not really no . And she's like what are you gonna wear ? Says not really no . And she's like what are you going to wear to dinner ? And he's like this . And she's like no . So she gives him her son's tuxedo so that he can show up for dinner appropriately dressed . And although he does , okay , rose's mother continues to put him down , asks like how are the rooms in third class ? And he says oh , they're great . Hardly any rats . And makes people laugh . And she's like well , do you really want to live this rootless lifestyle , like he has any other choice because he has no money ? And he says well , you know , two days ago I was sleeping under a bridge and here I am drinking champagne with all of you fine people . I love this , you know , make every day , make every moment count .
Speaker 1He takes Rose to a party in the third class steerage
Jack as a Trans Man Theory
Speaker 1. They dance . Cal finds out because Lovejoy has followed them , and he yells at her , slaps her and tells her that you know she will not act like this , that she is his wife in deed if not in legality , meaning that they've slept together already and that she can never see him again . So she's taking a tour of the ship with Mr Andrews , who's the one who built the boat , and she remarks on the fact that there are enough lifeboats for all the passengers . She did the math in her head . Mr Andrews says yes , I wanted there's enough room for all the lifeboats , but I was told that it made the deck cluttered . But don't worry , look , I won't bother you again . I just I'm worried about you . You're in a trap . They've got you trapped Like . You need to get out of this .
Speaker 1We have learned that from Rose's mother , that they are penniless . Their father , rose's father , died , leaving them indebted , and the only thing they have is their name . And so this marriage must happen or else they lose all of their money . And her mother cannot imagine living without the luxury that they're used to . And Rose says no , I have to keep doing what I've been expected to do .
Speaker 1Later on she comes back , she finds Jack again and says I've changed my mind . And so they have an adventure all over the ship . So you get to see everything , like the engine room with these giant pistons and all of that . She takes him back to her room , she puts on the diamond necklace and poses naked and says draw me like one of your French girls . They run away into steerage and have sex in the car and they are on deck when the ship runs into the iceberg .
Speaker 1And they are on deck when the ship runs into the iceberg . She had left a note for Cal saying like with the image of her and the diamond in the safe , saying now you can keep both of us in your safe , meaning the diamond and the picture of her when they hit the iceberg . She's like this is bad , we need to go tell mother and Cal . And so she goes back and that's when Lovejoy puts the diamond in Jack's pocket . They use that to arrest him . So over the next several hours the ship goes through the process of sinking and we see a number of like disaster movie cliches and while jack is handcuffed in a room in third class at first , so rose gets to one of the life boats with her mother and molly brown , her mother is saying I do hope they won't let any third class passengers on the lifeboat and Rose says to her shut up , that's yucky , oh yeah .
Speaker 2Mother's awful .
Speaker 1Yeah , she says shut up , people will die . You heard what Mr Andrews said on the tour there's only enough for half the people on this boat . People will die . She turns around and she says goodbye , mother , and turns around and leaves and Cal says where are you going ? Are you going to be his whore ? Get off of this boat , get off this ship . And she says I'm going to find him , whether I have your help or not . It will take longer without your help . And so he tells her where to find him . She has to find a like stakes . She has to find an axe to break his handcuffs .
Speaker 1There are several back and forth with Cal . You know Cal tries to buy his way onto a boat because it's only women and children . We see Mr Ismay , because Cal has lost track of Rose again and then Lovejoy has found her with Jack , and so Mr Ismay takes Cal's spot on the boat that he bought and see , like the judgment , because it's Mr Ismay's fault ultimately that all of this is happening . We see the musicians playing on the deck . We see a mother , like putting her kids to bed in third class , telling them a story , and a husband and wife like holding each other on a bed as the water comes up and Jack and Rose are being chased by Cal . Rose ends up getting on a boat . Cal and Jack both encourage her to get on the boat and they lie to her , saying Jack will get on a boat with Cal Halfway down because they have to , like , pull it down on ropes . Halfway down she jumps back onto the Titanic and says I'm not leaving without you , jack . You jump , I jump From when they first met and so there are no boats left , although Cal grabs a loose child and claims that's all she has in the world and is able to get on a lifeboat that way . Get on a lifeboat that way .
Speaker 1So Jack and Rose end up on the stern of the boat because that's the last part that goes into the water and he helps her . He knows like , okay , it's going to try to suck us in when it goes down , take a deep breath and then push up as soon as and hold onto my hand . They do all that . Then they find the door , so she gets on the door . He tries to get on . My opinion on the door is it's not that it's not big enough for both , it's that it's not buoyant enough for both , because when he tries to get on it , it almost turns over .
Speaker 1There are a bunch of people . They're screaming , they're shouting and there are all of these lifeboats , molly Brown's lifeboat . She's saying like come on , let's go back , let's go back and help them . And they refuse . And the captain of that lifeboat not captain , but the White Star Line employee says we're not going back , they would swarm us and if you don't keep your mouth shut then there'll be one less person on this boat and last person on this boat . So only one boat comes back to look for survivors . And old Rose says there were 1,500 people who went into the water . Only one boat came back and only six people , including myself , came out of the water .
Speaker 1So Jack and Rose talk . She says she loves him . He says don't say that You're not saying goodbye . Promise me you'll hold on . Promise me you're going to live , to be an old woman , you're going to die in a warm bed , you're going to do all the wonderful things we've talked about . And when the boat comes back , she sees it . She tries to wake Jack up , but he has died . And she manages to get the boat's attention . She gets into the boat .
Speaker 1We later see another ship has come and rescued them . Cal comes looking for her on the third class deck where all the third class passengers were . She was hiding and he did not see her . She saw him . She says that's the last time she saw Cal . At one point he had put his coat around her and that's where the Heart of the Sea diamond was in his coat and he had forgotten when he put it around her . And she found it when she got onto land . So we see that we never see anyone tell Bill Paxton that .
The Sinking & The Famous Door Debate
Speaker 1So we're back in the modern times . We see Bill Paxton talking to Rose's granddaughter saying like you know , I've been focused on this for four years but I never really understood , I never really got it . And he has a cigar . I was saving this for when I found the heart of the sea . And then he throws it into the ocean . And it ends with old Rose in her night gown on the ship , barefoot , going to the end of this ship with the heart of the sea in her hands and throwing it out into the ocean . And then she goes back to her cabin where she's got all of her photographs of her life and sees that she flew a plane , she became pilot and riding a horse , like not side saddle , like a leg on each side , with a roller coaster in the background , and then she's dreaming of being on the on on the titanic again with jack , and then that's the end of the film why'd she throw the ?
Speaker 2I know I mean it could have been really helpful for her granddaughter and shit it could have been really helpful for rose in 1915 yeah , I mean it's just a rock . Like did other people value highly Like get that bread . Get the money , rose .
Speaker 1She's kept it for 84 fucking years . Okay , get that money , rose .
Speaker 2Okay , I mean , she could have even like struck a deal with Bill Paxton and he could have said that he like found it and they could have like split the money , sorry , he like found it and they could have like split the money , sorry , like okay , what did you want to say about ?
Speaker 1this movie so I'm not even sure . I think I know what james cameron thinks he was doing with her throwing the heart of the sea in the ocean I think .
Speaker 2And what's that ? Because I don't think I get it .
Speaker 1I think she was letting go .
Speaker 2I think Of what ? Because didn't the heart of the sea represent cow , not jack ? I don't know , I mean Weird . Okay , not jack , I don't know , I mean weird okay , I told you like that I was .
Speaker 1as I was watching it last night my feeling was , like what is the point of this movie ? That's part of now like I didn't have that exact response 30 years ago as a teenager watching this . But I did go like what the fuck is that lady doing with the ? Like okay , why did you hold on to it for 84 years ?
Speaker 1to throw it in the ocean now , only to throw it in the sea , yeah , yeah , now , if Rose had thrown it in the sea in 1915 , I would have totally understood , totally . That would have made perfect sense to me .
Speaker 2Because it represented , like all of this terrible stuff . I mean it wasn't the iceberg , but it certainly caused suffering for the man that she thought she loved .
Speaker 1Yeah , so like I totally would have understood that , but for her to hold on to it for 84 years , yeah weird as a symbolic gesture .
Speaker 1it means nothing , it does not mean anything , so that's what I mean like , and then the fact that jack died also feels like now that's a symbolic gesture . That is actually not . It doesn't mean nothing in that if the ship hadn't sunk , like if the titanic had , because she'd said , when we dock , like before they hit the iceberg , so when we dock , I'm going to go with you , jack , that was never going to happen . Yeah , that was never going to happen . Yeah , that was never going to happen because Cal was wealthy Would have pursued her , and powerful , yeah , and she could not have remade herself .
Speaker 1She couldn't have escaped . She could not have escaped , and like the thing is , if Jack had survived , like if he could have gotten up on the door if the door had been buoyant enough , because it was big enough , yes , but it wasn't point enough , I don't know . Like this was a three-day love affair , right , that doesn't mean that they were compatible .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1And like I don't know what they actually have in common with each other , you know that is not the making of lasting love , of a lifelong commitment to each other . That doesn't mean it's not real . That doesn't mean it's not like life changing and we've made friends there and never seen them again .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , mm-hmm . That also is kind of like part of why I feel like what's the point of this is like circumstances changed Rose . She didn't change Mm Interesting , and she even says Jack saved me . In every way a person can save another person , and that feels kind of gross when I do feel like James Cameron was trying to be feminist question mark Right . There's this one scene where Rose is dressing for dinner and her maid , trudy , who's very kind to her , is lacing her corset and you can see Rose like flinching . Rose's mother comes in and says Trudy , get some tea .
Speaker 1And Rose's mother takes over with the corset and is like pulling even harder .
Speaker 1And so it's just like not subtle . Rose's mother is saying , like you have to behave yourself , cal is our last chance . We have no money . And Rose says you remind me of that daily and you care more about the money than you do about me . And Rose's mother says , like the one thing that makes her in any way sympathetic , which is we're women , our choices are never easy , women , our choices are never easy . And so , like you do get the sense that cameron was really was trying , but all of this just happens to rose now , like you get the 90s feisty , not like other girls . Like she gives love , joy the finger at one point which I cannot imagine in 1915 . In 1915 ? Yeah , yeah , well-bred young woman .
Speaker 2Mm-mm .
Speaker 1Mm-mm , mm-mm . Not that I like the term well-bred , but you know what I mean .
Speaker 2Even the fact that she contemplated suicide rather than , you know , go through with the marriage , I think , kind of gives you that sort of feistiness and , as part of Cameron , I think , trying to sort of show us how horrible it was for her , how trapped she was in this gilded cage , sad side saddle like . If jack is a trans man then he's speaking from experience of having learned to do those things right . Yeah and there's a certain there's a level of like , like , almost mentorship from someone who's been through it that a cis man saying those things does not convey .
Speaker 2Like a cis man doing it , it feels like saviorism . A trans man doing it feels like solidarity .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , yeah , it feels a lot better Now . Part of where this comes from is the fact that Leonardo DiCaprio , in 1997 , was at his so pretty , so pretty yeah . So pretty . 1997 was so pretty . Yeah , so pretty . I mean he was and like completely clean , shaven , like , whereas billy zane like had a five o'clock shadow right after he shaved .
Speaker 2So like the comparison , even though billy zane is very , very pretty like yeah , yeah , those eyes , oh yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1But there's a kind of boyishness and they keep calling him a boy , even though DiCaprio , I think , was 25 , 24 , 25 . So I mean , he was a grown man at the time , fully adult man , but he was very , very pretty , very slight and so like had they cast a different actor . This would not have been this
Questioning the Film's Message
Speaker 1theory , wouldn't ?
Speaker 2wouldn't fly so well , or at least not as convincingly , like not as neatly , yeah , yeah and then it also kind of fits with some of the backstory that he gives .
Speaker 1He has been on his own since he was 15 . And it kind of , you know , we don't get any backstory other than the fact that he was born in Wisconsin . There's like some shitty , not shitty , it's fine . There's some fan theories that he's a time traveler because he mentions a lake in Wisconsin that didn't exist in 1915 , saying he grew up on that lake , and so people are like , oh , he's a time traveler , because he mentions a lake in Wisconsin that didn't exist in 1915 , saying he grew up on that lake , and so people are like , oh , he's a time traveler . That's just bad , it's just fact checking on Cameron's part .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's just bad fact checking . When she is looking at his sketches there's one woman that he has sketched multiple times he's like , I think . She says I think you had a love affair with her and he says no , no , just with her hands . She was a one-legged prostitute and so he has been hanging out with people who are on the margins of society . So it would make sense that a 15-year-old first of all like thinking if an orphaned 15 year old girl began dressing in male clothing to get by and then fully transitioned to get by and to avoid being sexually harassed or trafficked .
Speaker 1If she could pass yeah , yeah , and then fully embracing it , and then that also . There are some things like there's a point where when he is dressed up in the tuxedo and he sees Rose , he kisses her hand and he says I saw that in Nickelodeon once and I've always wanted to do it . That is a gender affirming behavior and a lot of the kind of survival things that he does , where the Manic , pixie , dream Boy stuff , where it's like make every moment count fits with the idea of be who you are .
Speaker 2Well , and also it fits with the someone who's lived with the constant threat of danger .
Speaker 1Yes , which a trans man in 19 in the early 20th century would have , and it fits with him recognizing how trapped Rose is .
Speaker 1Because one of the things she says when she , when she talks to him the day after her suicide attempt , she says I know what you're thinking , poor little rich girl Like . And he says I'm not thinking that at all . I think you are really unhappy and it's because he recognizes you feel trapped and that kind of insight , without resentment , would make sense for someone who has lived it , even though she has the trappings of privilege . So I find that a much easier and better interpretation of this film than looking at it just forgive the pun straight .
Speaker 1Because otherwise , like Jack , just is too good to be true . Like why is he so devoted to Rose and why is he so unbothered by the fact that her life , in so many ways , has been so much easier than his ? And why is he so willing , like just because you know she's this ethereal beauty , to do all of these things to try to save her , when he's known her for a few days ?
Speaker 2Yeah , whereas if he recognizes a kindred spirit because he too felt trapped leo is playing a cisgender man . The fact that we have such a strong contrast between cal , who exploits a child in order to get on a lifeboat , versus jack , who sacrifices himself effectively for rose , like I think cameron is trying to show us the nobility in even the sort of face value read of Jack which speaks to potentially like what maybe he thought he was doing with the class stuff .
Speaker 2right , there's like a heart of nobility and goodness and moral virtue among this , literally shat upon people . On the third , you know in the steerage that is completely missing from those in the first class .
Speaker 2Many of those , well , sure , but like the specific instances that you told me in your , you know , in the synopsis that you gave me , like there were , there was multiple examples , from Ismay to Rose's mom to Cal , of people who , like , were just absolute cowards and hiding behind their money and privilege versus . Jack , yeah , that feels like a heavy handed kind of a message around money and class .
Speaker 1That's kind of what I mean , like when I say what's the point Because like it's heavy handed and then she throws diamond in the water for no reason .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean , just because we're in late stage , capitalism doesn't mean we don't play by the rules while we're advocating to change them .
Speaker 1You know you're holding millions of dollars in your hands If she'd done it when she was , you know , if she'd done it in 1915 , that would have been different In 1915 . Like , and that would have been meaningful .
Speaker 2Yeah , because she was throwing away the trappings of the old life .
Speaker 1Yes , the traptor . The trappings of the traptor .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1Was there ? No one Couldn't . Catherine Bigelow Like weren't they still married then ? That , weren't they still married then ? That's Cameron's wife , or ex-wife , now also a director , and she won an Academy Award was the first woman to win an Academy Award for Hurt Locker Like couldn't she have been like James ? No , no .
Speaker 2I mean , I'm sure that there was some sort of like romanticism of having the old lady do it . Yeah , I know .
Speaker 1You know , I know Seeing the like images of all the things she's done in her life , that she has been like Jack has had an effect on her life and that is lovely . There's something very , very lovely about that . But why did she throw the diamond in the water 84 years later ?
Speaker 2So we're running short on time . I just want to name , like I'm looking at what we talked about in advance and like the one thing that I just want to come back to briefly , and then anything that we missed is like the in the frame story . One of the things that is sort of interesting is like Paxson's like I've been chasing this thing for four years and I didn't really understand it and like it was a tragedy , and before we hit record you were like duh , and before we hit record you were like duh .
Speaker 2I do think there's something to this , because I think again like part of the point was like these were real people who really died and it was a real tragedy which , like we didn't need to sit through a five million year movie in order to like be reminded that it was a real tragedy where real people died , and like real lives were ruined . But maybe we did . Maybe cameron needed that . I don't like . That little piece of tension of your door is what I wanted to like . Yeah , maybe unpack a little bit before we run out of time .
Speaker 1I think that's related to my dissatisfaction with the old lady thrown the diamond , because bill paxton's character is looking for the diamond and they actually even have , like when he's on the news with the image , like the drawing of Rose , like they're asking him , like don't people think that it's like unreasonable of you to be looking for treasure when you know this is like museum ?
Speaker 2A water grave for 2 ?
Speaker 1yeah , water people or whatever and he says like well , we have people who are doing this , this and this , and there is this sense like even as he's looking for , like the first scene is him like narrating something and one of his crew is just like , oh , you're so full of shit . And then , like it's clear , he's focused on finding the jewel , and so it's this , like it's the Indiana Jones , like I'm finding the gold that belongs in a museum and like not really taking in the scope of like what this really means , right , and I think , like I think that's worth saying , I think that's worth saying , I think that's worth talking about . And I feel like Cameron was trying to say the heart of the ocean doesn't matter , and that's why she throws it in the water at the end .
Speaker 1But none of that is how human beings operate , and that's why I'm so annoyed by it , because like no one would hold on to that fucking thing for 84 years and then throw it away and then throw it away .
Speaker 1Yeah , if you're gonna hold on to it , you hold on to it yeah , and pass it on , or then your granddaughter gets money for it or whatever . Yeah , or you throw it away right away because you're so angry about what has just happened to you , yeah , and so like I know that this was like this was supposed to be . Like bill paxton understanding something , and like maybe bill paxton
Cameron's Vision vs. Character Logic
Speaker 1is a stand-in for james cameron . Like , yeah , understanding something , yeah , but it's just like it doesn't fit the character , it doesn't't fit human behavior .
Speaker 1And so like duh , this enormous human tragedy . And like good on James Cameron for making me cry . It was the violinist and the quartet . He said it's been a privilege playing with you tonight to the quartet and I teared up because that is what it is to be human to play while the titanic sinks and that is amazing and I will be grateful forever to james cameron for giving me that . But I don't . I feel like he got in his own way there .
Speaker 2Yeah , he got part of the way there and then he got in his own way .
Speaker 1He needed it to mean something to him , and this is a matter of not killing your darlings , because gross throwing the heart of the way there .
Speaker 2Yeah , he got part of the way there . He got in his own way . He needed it to mean something to him and this is a matter of not killing your darlings . Yes , because , rose , throwing the heart of the sea into the ocean is a darling that he should have killed .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , unless he had 17-year-old Rose do it .
Speaker 2Right , right , all right . Well , we are really running out of time , so let me see if I can reflect back to your thoughts on the Titanic . So I'll start with yes , the door was big enough , but it wasn't buoyant enough . Okay , yes . So this movie in some ways lacks a point because we don't have sort of the moral of the story , we don't have the bigger meaning , we don't have the ways in which , like , rose's character changed , right , like her life was changed by the experience , but like there was no like growth that we're seeing . So that is , I don't know , problematic . This movie is frustrating , yeah .
Speaker 2As for the storytelling piece , this movie is much more satisfying if we imagine that the gorgeous , very pretty , very like boyish I'm putting quotes around that Leonardo DiCaprio playing Jack is in fact a trans man and not a cisgender man , and somehow that like really transforms the whole romance and makes it less about Jack being a savior and more about Jack being a mentor who has been through it before , right , so someone who says , hey , I've been where you are and here's how you can get through it , and then that romance , sort of it , feels more co-equal to me in the way that you described it , the thing that I said earlier was that it was less about saviorism and more about solidarity . That is really a very interesting interpretation , and I think that also helps to underscore the feminism question mark that maybe Cameron was like trying for but didn't quite make . And we see that he was trying for it by really getting us as an audience to deeply sympathize and empathize with poor Rose who is trapped in this life . That is not just unsatisfying but causing suffering and forcing her , like taking away her agency and taking away her choices . Over and over and over again . We have her being sort of feisty and telling the boat designer that he has a small penis and having Molly Brown laugh at that and having Molly Brown ask her fiance if he's going to chew for her too , and that sort of thing .
Speaker 2There's also this like regarding that , that sort of feminist piece or there was less like a call to action or even a judgment and more like a here's the thing , here's the thing that happens . And there was a similar sort of here's the thing , here's the thing that happens around class and classism in the boat , in the way that the story unfolds and what we get to see about it , that it wasn't even necessarily judgment . And then there is a judgment , but like what do we do with it ?
Speaker 2Because we see , though , there are some people who are moral human beings among the first class passengers many of them many of them , we see , are just completely morally bankrupt , self-serving and not afraid or embarrassed or ashamed to like rose's mother , to like commit other people to death because they're not of the same class .
Speaker 2Cameron , like showed us something and then didn't quite turn it all the way around . He also kind of got in his own way , where he was committed to this historic accuracy . That was gorgeous and beautiful , made you cry with the musicians on the deck in his hopeless situation , but then also like he needed to throw the heart of the sea or whatever , the diamond into the ocean . And so he had ancient Rose do it , even though it was completely out of character . It's completely out of sync with human behavior for someone who held on to this thing for over 80 years . And so we end up with this darling that maybe should have been killed somewhere in revisions and leaves you saying like , where were his editors ? Where was his wife Saying don't do that ? So what did I forget ? Where was his ?
Speaker 1wife saying don't do that . So what did I forget ? Just the spectacle of this film . Like Cameron , he committed his whole ass .
Speaker 2Whole ass . He whole assed it .
Speaker 1It's an amazing feat , Although , oddly enough , like as high tech as special effects are it has aged . There are some things that , as we all do , I like it a lot better , if I assume that Jack is a trans man , yeah , cool .
Speaker 2Well , I still don't really want to watch it , but I'm really glad to know more about it . So thank you for this . Next week . I am going to bring you my deep thoughts about a very obscure movie that we loved as children , called the Beastmaster .
Speaker 1That was the movie .
Speaker 2That was why you wanted ferrets . That is exactly why I wanted ferrets was because of that movie , so I'm looking forward to rewatching it . I haven't seen it in probably 40 years , so next week I will share my thoughts with you about it . See you then . This show is a labor of love , but that doesn't make it free to produce . If you enjoy it even half as much as we do , please consider helping to keep us overthinking . You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and , of course , share the show with your people can find us and , of course , share the show with your people . Thanks for listening . Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom . Find full music credits
Final Thoughts & Next Episode Preview
Speaker 2in the show notes .
Speaker 1Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode .
Speaker 2Until next time , remember pop culture is still culture , and shouldn't you know what's in your head ?