Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast

Mannequin: Deep Thoughts About Hiding Seriously Subversive Messages in Deeply Unserious Movies

• Tracie Guy-Decker & Emily Guy Birken • Episode 93

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Two things I love to do: fight and kiss boys!

This week, Emily revisits another of the silly Pygmalion movies from the Guy girls' childhood: Michael Gottlieb's 1987 film Mannequin, starring Kim Cattrall, Meshach Taylor, and Andrew McCarthy. While the story of an underemployed Philadelphia artist who falls in love with a department store mannequin is as insubstantial as dandelion fluff, the film slipped some delightfully subversive and progressive gay representation into the movie with the character of Hollywood Montrose, played to flamboyant-but-fleshed-out perfection by Meshach Taylor. Not only is this one of the few movies of the era to allow a gay character to have a romantic and sexual life (off-screen, unfortunately), but Gottlieb's script allows Hollywood to be a hero, friend, and integral part of the plot of the film. Additionally, the scene where Hollywood holds off the police-coded bad guys using a firehose is both hilarious and historically powerful, making it even more impactful by being included in an unserious romcom.

Be careful! If you stand very still while you listen, someone might think you're a mannequin.

Mentioned in this episode:

Hollywood Montrose: Mannequin's Gay Hero

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/mannequin-1987

This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thou​​ghts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls

We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.

We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com

We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.

Speaker 1:

And that's one of the things like why I love Kim Cattrall is you get the impression that she is uncompromising. All of her characters feel like they got moxie. They're uncompromising, like even in these silly little like romantic comedies, in this ridiculous Egyptian beginning. She's like I want all these wonderful things and you feel like you know what? I got a lot of them.

Speaker 2:

I want all these wonderful things and you feel like you know what. I got a lot of them. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know what's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.

Speaker 1:

I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1987 film Mannequin with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you, let's dive in. So, tracy, I know you've seen this movie, but tell me what's in your head about Mannequin? With my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you, let's dive in. So, tracy, I know you've seen this movie, but tell me what's in your head about Mannequin.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I know I've seen this movie, but maybe not since 87. It's been like a really long time. My recollection is that a good looking dude I don't remember the actor, but I remember liking the way that he looked was a window dresser or something, somehow worked with mannequins and fell in love with one in particular, and then she becomes real. So, as we noted at the end of last episode a Pygmalion story I have vague memory of a Black gay best friend, and that's really it. That's what I got for this film, like that's all there is in terms of Furniture of the Mind. I mean, it was on the list and so, and I was like, oh yeah, kind of sort Okay, but I knew it wasn't one I was going to lean on. So tell me, though, why are we talking about it?

Speaker 1:

So we are recording this on June 22nd, so still in the midst of Pride Month, and originally, actually, according to our schedule, we were going to record Overboard and I was like I can't do it, I cannot do it. That movie is very problematic even in my memory and so I.

Speaker 1:

Actually it's because of the gay black best friend played by Meshach Taylor, who I also remember fondly from Designing Women, anthony Bouvier. We should put that on the list. I remember just adoring Hollywood Montrose, the character that he played. He had the most amazing outfits. His glasses were these funky 80s-tastic glasses. His clothes were amazing. He was hilarious, he was flamboyant, but he was not the joke, he was a real person and I just remember always loving when he was on screen and he was a great friend to.

Speaker 1:

It was Andrew McCarthy's Jonathan, and so, because it's Pride Month, I was thinking about like I loved that character. Does he hold up? Because Meshach Taylor wasn't queer as far as I know, you know he was married to a woman. He sadly passed away about 10 years ago. Know, you know he was married to a woman. He sadly passed away about 10 years ago, and so I was like so was this a good representation? Do I remember it well? Or is this just my childhood memory of a flamboyant character? Or is this, you know, like 80s, rosy, rosy, rose colored glasses?

Speaker 1:

And, honestly, I didn't have high hopes for it, because this is a ridiculous premise. And, honestly, I didn't have high hopes for it, because this is a ridiculous premise. It's ridiculous. Critics hated it and I watched it last night and, oh my God, this movie is surprisingly great. It is surprisingly wonderful. It reminded me like I love Kim Cattrall, like I really do Everything she has been in. She is not an actor that I go to for, like gravitas exactly, but everything she's in is just a delight. She's got moxie, yeah, and like I'm reminded of. I think I've talked before about how the reboot of Sex and the City is dead to me Because she's not in it. It's not because she's not in it, it's because of how they wrote her out of it, because her character was ride or die for her friends and the way they wrote her out of it was that she got her feelings hurt and would not speak to them again, just wrote them off.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and so, and it's like you know what there are many ways that you can write a character off where she's still ride or die for her friends and like I'm sorry, no, don't do Kim Cattrall like that, don't do Samantha Jones like that.

Speaker 2:

No, all right. All right, let's talk about.

Speaker 1:

Mannequin. Let's talk about Mannequin. So part of what's fantastic about this movie is, yes, Hollywood is a lot of stereotypes and very flamboyant, but in service of a fully formed character who is allowed to have romantic and sexual relationships. Not on screen, 1987 was not quite prepared for that, but still he talks openly about his relationship and other people are encouraging him about them and talk to him about his relationship and what he can do to encourage his relationship with his on-a-gun, off-a-gun boyfriend is Albert. He is heroic and loyal to his friends and in a lot of ways he is the hero with agency in this film and he is the only character brought back for the execrable sequel. It's terrible.

Speaker 2:

They made a second Okay.

Speaker 1:

But if you fast forward to the parts with Hollywood, that's worth watching. So that is quite amazing. And then, as I said, it's a Pygmalion story. But it fixes the problems with Pygmalion stories because Kim Cattrall's character, emmy, is notxy-yesterday creation who comes alive because her creator falls in love with her. Her creator does fall in love with her, but she is actually a 4,000-year-old muse who has come alive in artistic creations over and over and over again over these 4,000 years when she has felt something for an artist who has fallen in love with his creation because she is looking for her true love.

Speaker 2:

That's really interesting. So she's not, I think, Pygmalion, I think Born Sexy Yesterday, unless it's like Eliza Doolittle, I suppose. But it's really interesting that instead of that, she is a muse. That's really cool, Although I will say I think there's this sort of like if we think about Leeloo from Fifth Element. She was also an ancient being, yes, and still born sexy yesterday, yes, and even Wonder Woman we talked about. Wonder Woman had that sort of like. There is a sense of ancient wisdom that comes along with Born Sexy Yesterday, yes.

Speaker 1:

And I think in some ways, emmy, well, we'll get to it, we'll talk about that, we'll talk about that.

Speaker 2:

Sure, so why don't you remind me of what happened, since I have so little actual plot in my head?

Speaker 1:

So the film starts in ancient Egypt. It says I can't remember. It's like Elfu, egypt, thousands of years ago. Oh, so she's not a Greek not from Greek mythology. No, she is.

Speaker 2:

Egyptian Kim.

Speaker 1:

Cattrall is Egyptian. Blonde haired, blue eyed, kim Cattrall is Egyptian. It is surprisingly fantastic. That doesn't mean it's without problems.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

I'm with you. So it kind of sets the scene for how ridiculous it's going to be. Because it says, like the subtitle says, el arranged to marry because Emmy has turned down all of her suitors and this is the last one who's interested in marrying her and he is a camel dung salesman. Because she's turned down the jeweler, she's turned down the I can't remember what they all are and so Emmy is praying to the gods, saying please get me out of this. And so there's a strike of lightning and Emmy disappears.

Speaker 1:

Then we go into an animation with music that shows an animation of Emmy going through history and appearing to artists and coming alive from their art. Now I will admit, even last night I have trouble paying attention to this animation because it's like, just for whatever reason, like you change format and I'm like, oh, is this the same story? But it's basically showing that she has done this multiple times throughout the intervening 4,000 years. Then we see it's Philadelphia, current day, which is 1987. And we meet Jonathan Switcher, played by Andrew McCarthy.

Speaker 1:

He is working in a mannequin factory, or I don't know exactly how it works, and he is speaking to a mannequin. He says you know, you get more beautiful every single day he has created the head and torso of a mannequin and he's like all right, let's get you some limbs. And he starts finding legs and arms for it. The boss comes over and asks how it's going. He's like oh, I think I've really got it now. You know, it's only taken me like six days.

Speaker 1:

And I finally like, look, she's perfect. And he's like I think if I keep going at this rate, I can do like three or four in a month. He's like you're supposed to do three or four in a week. You're fired. And then you see a montage of him getting fired from a bunch of other jobs. He then picks up his girlfriend Roxy from the Illustra giant department store on his Harley Davidson motorcycle. She is horribly embarrassed that he's picking her up in something with outdoors and all of her co-workers are like making fun of her that she's being picked up on a motorcycle I mean, it's a harley, it's not a.

Speaker 1:

I know, you know little putt putter I mean okay, okay, all right, but it's not. It's not like a, anyway, it's a little Harley, but still, okay. Okay, all right, carry on. They're not wearing helmets, which I have a problem with, but anyway. So they end up arguing. She says I'm not coming home with you. You really need to figure things out Like you have no ambition, things out Like you have no ambition.

Speaker 1:

We learned that Jonathan is actually a sculptor and he is like chronically underemployed because there's not much call for sculptors these days and it starts raining. So he's he and his motorcycle won't start. And so he's walking it down the street past a different department store and he sees his mannequin in the window and he, like, walks over to it and he's like, oh, I know every artist falls in love with their creation, but you were the first thing that really made him feel like an artist in a long, long time. And then he goes back to his motorcycle and he's able to turn it on and ride home and he's like, wow, okay. So the next morning he goes back to the window and he runs into Estelle Getty's Claire Timken, who is the owner of Prince and Company. It was her grandfather and her father's store, so you know it's been there for 100 years. They're putting up a new sign that says 100 years years. They're putting up a new sign that says 100 years and they're chatting when the new sign falls and Jonathan pushes her out of the way and like, grabs the sign and is like swinging from it and saves her life. And so she says, oh, my goodness, young man, I owe you my life, what can I do for you? He's like well, I need a job. And she's like what can you do? And he's like I'll do anything. So she brings him in, introduces him to the store manager who we see, before they get there, is on the phone with BJ Wirt, who is the manager of Illustra, and so is clearly in cahoots with Illustra, who wants to do a hostile takeover of Prince and Company. And so the manager of Illustra is played by James Spader in like unctuous, greasy perfection. I mean he is just having a ball chewing the scenery. And so Claire says give this young man a job. And so he just makes him a clerk where he's putting packages away. Richards is the name of James Spader's character, so he uses the job where he's putting packages away to.

Speaker 1:

Richards is the name of James Spader's character. So he uses the job where he's putting packages away to try to find his mannequin and he stumbles into the window dresser, hollywood Montrose, played by Meshach Taylor. And because he's been looking for the mannequin, he's accidentally walked into a couple of changing rooms, which is not okay. And Hollywood is like, oh, I'm so glad you're here. Really, he's like, yeah, I never thought they would hire anyone stranger than me. And so Hollywood ends up having Jonathan help him with window dressing, and they are using his mannequin. So, emmy, and so they get the window dressed.

Speaker 1:

Hollywood starts telling Jonathan about his troubles. He and Albert have just broken up and so, again, this is very subversive in 1987. Jonathan puts his arm around Hollywood and says, like you need to go home and get some rest. You need to. Because Hollywood's saying, like he said, my thighs are too fat. Does he think it's true? And Jonathan's like I don't know anything about men's thighs, but you know like you need to get some rest, you need to. You know, like, take good care of yourself and is being a good friend.

Speaker 2:

When in 1987, it would have been perfectly normal for a movie to be like ew normal for a movie to be like ew man, I don't know, or worse, or worse, you know, just like ew, I don't want to talk about that man.

Speaker 1:

And so, once Hollywood leaves, he had put a scarf around the mannequin's neck and it has fallen. And so Jonathan leans over and picks it up and says oh so you don't like your new scarf? And Emmy comes alive and says, not, especially no. And he, like, freaks out, not enough.

Speaker 2:

I have a vague memory of that he like, kind of like backs up a little bit.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So she like wanders around the stores just talking to him, tells him a little bit about you know what's what's going on? She says you remind me of my boyfriend Chris. I told him the world was round and then I never saw him again. And together they end up creating this like amazing window dressing that brings a huge number of people to the store the next morning, which is another aspect of the movie that just like, seriously, window dressing is going to make a huge difference.

Speaker 2:

I feel like movies in general kind of gave us the impression that that was like a thing that people care a great deal about.

Speaker 1:

So at some point that night he runs into and I am not going to remember the character or the actor's name so he runs into the oh Felix, the overnight security guard, who is a bigot he's played by GW Bailey, who was also the bad guy in the Police Academy movies. And so he runs into him. He's like, oh, I'm helping Hollywood. And he's like, oh, so the Mary has an assistant. So where do you all come from? And so Jonathan says Ohio, no-transcript. Jonathan, in trouble for this amazing people, because people are talking and it's Richard's, but Richard's also like talking about both sides of his mouth, saying like I'll protect you. To, uh, to Jonathan, Hollywood, who has met Jonathan the night before but was Jonathan, was kind to him, shows up and says I will go in and fight for you. And, uh, he starts like, uh, he's like I didn't want to do this. But he starts like unbuttoning his suit and Jonathan's like no, I didn't want to do this. But he starts like unbuttoning his suit and Jonathan's like no, I don't think it's that kind of thing. And he takes off his suit and underneath it's a completely conservative suit. He's like that's hilarious. And he's like please do not tell anyone. You saw me like this. I have an image to maintain. So Claire Stelgetti says you know this is ridiculous. We're going to hold off on the discussion about selling for another six weeks. We're going to see what happens. People come to look at these windows, they stay to buy and I'm promoting Jonathan to manager of window dressing basically Merchandising or whatever. So he's like I'm not sure I can do it because like I had help. And she's like believe in yourself, it's fine. So he starts working overnight.

Speaker 1:

Now Roxy, the girlfriend is told to try to poach him. So she takes him to lunch and he tells her like what if I told you I'd help? She's like oh, that's fine, Bring him along. And he says what if I told you it's a beautiful woman? And she says that's okay, I'm not jealous, even though they've basically broken up at this point.

Speaker 1:

And he says no, I found a place where people care about me. They like me for who I am. I'm not leaving. If there's anything that I am, it's loyal and so, no, I'm not doing this. So Roxy and Armand, who is one of her co-workers who is constantly sexually harassing her, sneak into the building at night to try to get pictures of whoever this woman is so they can try to poach her to get Jonathan to come. And Richards has told Felix to keep an eye on Jonathan and find out what's going on. Keep an eye on Jonathan and find out what's going on. So every night Jonathan and Emmy are like just having fun in the store and also designing these windows and Felix catches Jonathan and Emmy like having fun but then she turns. She is only human when jonathan is around. If another person sees her, she turns right back into a mannequin.

Speaker 2:

She's like the the weeping angels from yes yes, doctor, yes, felix catches him.

Speaker 1:

In what?

Speaker 2:

dancing with a mannequin.

Speaker 1:

Well, actually rolling around in a sexual position with a man. Oh, that.

Speaker 2:

That's ridiculous.

Speaker 1:

And so Armand and Roxy are at the top of an escalator and like taking pictures of this the funniest line in the whole movie because one of the things Armand will say something gross and Roxy will like hit him. And so he has the camera and he's taking pictures and he's saying something really gross. And so she hits him and he falls down the escalator and you hear a crash and she looks down and she goes oh my camera.

Speaker 2:

Right on sister.

Speaker 1:

And then Felix starts hitting Jonathan Like it's really weird Physically hitting him. Emmy waits until Felix's back is turned and she helps and then they're able to like knock him out. So Claire fires Felix and Richard the next morning because Felix is like knocked out until the next morning. And they find him in the morning like asleep, like knocked out in the middle and sales keep going down at the Lustra. Things are going very poorly and they end up making Jonathan the vice president of Prince and Company. Everyone is just okay with him carrying this mannequin around everywhere. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1:

They're like you know what? He seems like a nice guy. It's not the way I'd do it, but it's working, so carry on. He's seen the pictures of Jonathan with the mannequin that Armand and Roxy got. He says, okay, go steal that dummy. So you know we've got something. So he sends them to go basically kidnap it. That is the same night where Jonathan says you have been stuck in the store too long, I want to take you out. So he takes her out on a motorcycle, even though she's like aren't you going to feel weird when people see me? I'm going to turn back into the mannequin. He's like I don't care, you deserve to have some time. And so they go out and when no one is looking, she's Emmy. And when people are looking, it's the mannequin.

Speaker 1:

And they go past Roxy and Armand in Armand's car and she's like there's something wrong with you. And he's like Roxy, you haven't met her, emmy, this is Roxy, roxy, emmy. And he's like I really don't care what you think. And I think that's at the point where Armand says like you know what would make you feel better? Sex with someone you loathe. And I would like to perform that and like be that for you. It's so gross.

Speaker 1:

But the next scene is they're in Armand's really gross apartment and he's like holding up a blanket and she's like angry, putting her shoes on. He's like this has never happened before, it never happens. So he couldn't perform. So she said yes, and then he was. Well, she says she says drive fast before I change my mind. And they get there and he can't and I'm like I'm very glad for Roxy that that's what happened, but it's gross, it's gross. So they take this ride. They come back to the store. During the ride they're being chased by Felix and Richards who saw them leave. They're like they're kidnapping the dummy before we got a chance to kidnap the dummy, or he's kidnapping the dummy. They're chased by them and then they go back to the store. In the middle of the store with some camping equipment, they make love, which I'm like find someplace a little more private.

Speaker 2:

But okay, does Jonathan know he's being chased?

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah, they elude, pursuit Felix and Richard's car gets stuck, like because he's in a motorcycle he can go down these like really narrow alleys, so like it like gets air, and then gets stuck five feet off the ground. So I think he has reason to believe they're safe. So get back to the store, make love in the middle of the store. He falls asleep and she's like, oh, I need to get to the window. And so she goes to the window that they've designed and becomes the mannequin. Richards and Felix arrive. They're supposed to just take Emmy, and Felix is like, oh, I know exactly which one it is. And then he's like they all look the same, so they take all the female dummies. So Jonathan wakes up the next morning to everyone staring at him looking at him, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And like when he wakes up, they applaud Is he dressed? Nope, and then Hollywood shows up and says, yeah, there's, you've missed the news. All of the women mannequins are gone, including your favorites. He's like, oh my God. And Hollywood is like I know you're sad, but you helped me when Albert and I were broken up and I can tell you what you can do. He's like, no, no, no, I know where she is. And this is again.

Speaker 1:

Hollywood thinks that he has a weird thing for this mannequin. He's in love with this specific mannequin, yeah. And so Hollywood takes him in his car and like drives him to Illustra. So he goes and confronts Roxy, who's in the boardroom with BJ, who's like how, about $55,000 a year? And like he like grabs BJ and like holds him up against the wall, like, like really threatening when is she? Where is she? He's like all right, 60,000. And this is when Roxy is like you know what, you're never going to see her again. And like runs off because she's jealous, but not like it's like ew, it's a wooden mannequin. And like I'm a real person. And like ew, ew. So like that's what I told you before we started recording, like it's a very human response that she has. It's a human like. That is so natural. It's yeah, it's plausible. It's a plausible reaction that she would have. So she goes down.

Speaker 1:

They were all in, like the basement of the, the building where there is this like giant trash shredder thing. So she grabs all of the mannequins they stole and starts putting them on this conveyor belt to go into the trash shredder. And so they have called the police, all of security, and Jonathan goes through this race. Hollywood had kind of gotten separated from him and so it's very difficult for Jonathan to get away from the security. But finally he's in the basement and Hollywood appears, and so it's very difficult for Jonathan to get away from the security. But finally he's in the basement and Hollywood appears and again he thinks he's helping his friend get a mannequin. And he appears. There's like about a half dozen police officers or security guards. Hollywood has a giant fire hose, industrial fire hose that he has turned on the police and he's like there's two things I like, and that's kissing men and fighting. He's keeping these law enforcement officers at bay with a fire hose and I want to spend some time on that.

Speaker 1:

And so Jonathan races to get there at the last minute because of course Emmy's the last mannequin to get there. At the last minute he's able to grab her, but there are people watching, she's still wooden and he can't quite get her because there's a conveyor belt and all of that. And then she turns human and is able to hold his hand, but it's still like she's heavy, he can't grab her. And then there is like a janitor there who sees her and is able to hold his hand, but it's still like she's heavy, he can't grab her. And then there is like a janitor there who sees her and is able to stop the machine and he's able to pull her up and she goes. Oh my God, that man can see me and I'm real, I'm alive.

Speaker 1:

The entire cast of the movie shows up at that point, at that point and Claire is able to say, like once we fired the overnight security guard, I put in surveillance cameras, which were new in 1987. And so I saw you two steal all the mannequins, richards and Felix. So we've got the police are going to arrest you and I know I can't prove it yet, but I know that you're behind it, bj. So, and like Jonathan's like, did the surveillance cameras see everything? Did they see me and Emmy and she's like they only saw what I needed to see, and the final scene is Emmy and Jonathan getting married in the window, with Hollywood as best man and Claire as a bridal attendant or a maid of honor.

Speaker 2:

So why did Emmy?

Speaker 1:

become real Because the gods granted her the wish, because she she wanted to she wanted, yeah, basically.

Speaker 2:

Huh, okay, all right. Where do you want to start with the analysis here?

Speaker 1:

Let me talk about that moment with the hose. Yeah, you want to start there. That's the moment I remembered and I don't like because I just thought it was fun when I was a kid. You didn't see the historical relevance with the 60s yeah, so just recognizing and, like I suspect, that Meshach Taylor completely got the oh, he knew he knew.

Speaker 1:

And I'm thinking like, had I seen this in my 20s, I would have gotten the historical significance of it in terms of the Civil Rights Movement and Black Liberation. But I'm wondering if, in terms of Stonewall and the historical significance of it for the pride movement, the fact that it is a flamboyantly gay black man holding back these law enforcement officers- Now they may be store security officers, but they are wearing blue and with badges and stuff like that they are coded as cops with a fire hose.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's so yeah, it's so subversive, powerful imagery for this like little trivial, fluffy movie about a mannequin that comes to life, which?

Speaker 1:

honestly makes it even more powerful, because it is a movie that more people are going to see, because they don't expect it in there. Like this is a movie that little kids and, like you know, people just go to watch and eat popcorn. This is not a movie that people are going to say like black power, right and they get it and so like good on you, michael gottlieb, who is the the writer and director of this film.

Speaker 1:

Good on you. That is amazing and it stuck with me. That is like like other than Hollywood's clothing and affect.

Speaker 1:

That was the scene that I remember being like oh, I loved that part and like part of that is because I always, I always like the like give them their own back kind of kind of thing about the underdog in movies. But watching it last night and just realizing like oh my god, that moment is so significant in this insignificant little like cotton candy fluff of a of a movie I mean, that is the project of deep thoughts.

Speaker 1:

yeah, and so I want to talk about like why I loved Hollywood as a character so much. I'm not going to say like. I know that this was not the first gay character I encountered and I'm sure it's probably not the first like fully realized gay character I encountered. But I can't recall a gay character who had such a heroic part and who throughout is treated with dignity and respect. There is one joke at his expense there is a point where, after Jonathan is offered the vice president position, he takes Emmy into the ladies' room so they can have some privacy to tell her about the job. And then they're, a bunch of the staff are like listening in, and like he's talking to the dummy again. And so they're all listening in. And then Hollywood comes by and he's like oh no, no, I know you are not eavesdropping without me. And they're like is that my beloved Jonathan in there? They're like yes, and he's like well, I need to go in. And so they're like you can't go in there. He's like oh, yes, I can. And so he goes in and of course Emmy turns into a mannequin. And then Hollywood asks Jonathan, please help me make a window. Like that was my job. And like you're outpacing me and I need to know what it is. You do, I need your help.

Speaker 1:

And Jonathan feels like he can't do it without Emmy and so he's like I don't know, I don't know if I can, and like Hollywood starts crying. He's like you know, I thought, like I thought we were friends, and then, like Jonathan's like okay, and so Hollywood starts sobbing in that very flamboyant, over-the-top kind of way and a man comes out of the men's room and says who's that crying? And one of the women says to him it's either our new VP, a dummy, or the fairy, and it's so gross. But it's also so much more gentle than it could have been. But it's gross, but that is in the movie. That is the only thing that is at his expense and it is a throwaway character. So I feel like in a lot of ways, this does.

Speaker 1:

This was like a push forward when we needed it and like we kind of needed it to be in this intellectual candy movie Mm-hmm, because we're not taking the movie seriously, so we can. So it slipped in. So it slipped in. Yeah, it's a spoonful of sugar and Meshach Taylor does a fantastic job. He gives like, even with the flamboyance he gives like he has fun with this character. But this character is a real person and the writing allows. He's not asexual, he's not this over-the-top flamboyant character who has never had sex, who doesn't have relationships, who you know and who is not sacrificed at the end or anything like that. Now we never see Albert or anything along those lines, but I don't think that 1987 could have handled that, to be honest.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

That was like when I was texting you last night. I was like this movie is surprisingly great. That's part of what it was, and the other thing that I want to point out is so there's Hollywood and then there is Jonathan's character, first of all pushing back against Felix like the homophobia that was perfectly normal in 1987, calling it out you're a bigoted jerk. And then putting his arm around Hollywood when Hollywood is upset about his recent breakup. So I saw a film analysis last night and I'll link to it in the show notes that reminded me because I had forgotten the timeline that this was at about the same time when Princess Diana made headlines for going to a hospital that was treating HIV and AIDS patients. She made headlines because she shook their hands and made a statement saying you're not putting yourself in danger by shaking the hands or hugging people who have HIV or AIDS. Because people were at that time, were even afraid to be in the same room with someone who was gay. And so when Hollywood talks about being upset and is upset about having broken up with Albert, jonathan immediately puts his arm around him. So that was also so huge and subversive Mm-hmm At that time At that time, and just Estelle Getty's role in this was also this I didn't realize. In that same video, estelle Getty was an ally, lgbtq ally her entire life. She had an important boundary in what roles she would take. She would not take any roles that used homophobia as the butt of a joke. She did not allow any jokes to make being queer the punchline. So like right there, the fact that she was in this movie showed that this was a movie that recognized that there are many ways to love and that's totally okay. So I also want to talk about like the romance is actually pretty great too, even though it's a Pygmalion story.

Speaker 1:

So Kim Cattrall's Emmy the movie just barely passes the Bechdel test because Emmy and her mother oh wait, does her mother have a name? Hmm, it might not pass the Bechdel test. They talk about the fact that Emmy wants to do more than just be married to some dude and she wants to invent things and see the world and fly and all of these things. And her mother says, yeah, I know, but that's not the way it works for women. And then Emmy basically becomes a muse where she inhabits the artwork created by different male artists and comes alive and she tells Jonathan like I really liked the way that your hands felt when you were creating me as a mannequin, which seems so silly. But she has made it clear she is looking for true love and at one point Jonathan says why me Like, maybe there's some other guy 5,000 years from now who's going to be better than me. I'm just some dude. And she's like well, I like the way that you look at the world and the jobs he keeps getting fired from. He's getting fired because he is taking his time trying to make things perfect. So he gets fired from making pizzas because he's trying to distribute the peppers and onions and make things that are worthy. And she recognizes that in him that it's not just like getting by. He really wants to do something that is important and he recognizes that that is true even in something mundane like pizza or like Prince and Company's window display, which is kind of lovely.

Speaker 1:

And then, because she has had these life experiences all throughout these 4,000 years they're brief, but she is not someone who appears with no experience. She has had sexual partners before. She has had love, but not like you know, the deep love that she's looking for. But she's had love before. You know she's had previous boyfriends and so when she falls in love with Jonathan, we know it's not because he's the first guy she's met, which I really, really appreciate.

Speaker 1:

And that's one of the things like why I love Kim Cattrall is you get the impression that she is uncompromising. All of her characters feel like they got moxie. They're uncompromising, like even in these silly little like romantic comedies, like in this ridiculous Egyptian beginning. She's like I want all these wonderful things and you feel like you know what. I got a lot of them and I fell in love with this ridiculous window dresser because I got these cool things and he has this quality that I've been looking for, even though he's some random sculptor in Philadelphia. You don't get the sense that she's settling for some less than guy. He's not mid. Even though he's just some random guy in Philadelphia. You know there really is a sense that he is worthy and somehow there's something special about him.

Speaker 2:

He's not just a dude.

Speaker 1:

He's not just a dude with a pretty face.

Speaker 2:

Right, right.

Speaker 1:

Which in a different movie. Sure, that's what it would be Definitely.

Speaker 2:

I mean most of the Born Sexy Yesterday. Pygmalion type stories. That's what it is.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and so that that is what I like. I really appreciate it. I feel like there is there is a sense of equality between them.

Speaker 2:

Can we talk about the ways in which she is and is not born sexy yesterday, sure.

Speaker 1:

She isn't, because she has agency over when she appears and that is not something that you see in the born sexy yesterday. So, like Leeloo from Fifth Element did not get to choose.

Speaker 1:

Right when she came back, whereas emmy has made it clear that like, oh, I like this one, I'm coming back for this one, um, and so that agency really makes a big difference, like I'm gonna show up now because I like this guy and so, so that that is. That is very counter to porn sexy yesterday. Because that level of agency, the wisdom, like when he's like I don't think I can do this without you, and she's like, yes, you can, I help you, but you have that creativity within you. That is like the manic pixie dream girl Wise beyond her years.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's part of the trope, I can sex you into being the man you can be. That's part of the trope I can sex you into being the man you can be. So that's part of it, and the like helping you break free of your own mental prison, kind of bullshit.

Speaker 2:

But it's also hard to say, because the fact that Jonathanathan embraces, like you know what. I'm just gonna be the weird guy who carries a mannequin around is why he's worthy of her, you know?

Speaker 1:

yeah, I see why you say it's not quite aligned but it's definitely adjacent, it's, it's, it rhymes, it rhymes. There's a scene where she accidentally stumbles onto a huge stereo and music starts playing. She's like, oh, where are the musicians? So she hasn't come back for two or three hundred years, apparently, and so there's moments like that where it's like Like squarely in the Born Sexy Yesterday with that wonder and she sees like this department store they sell the weirdest shit.

Speaker 1:

So she sees like a hang glider and like one of the things. One of her dreams has always been to fly, and it's this huge, gorgeous, like old fashioned, like from the early 20th century department stores and in fact they said it in Philadelphia, because they specifically scouted to find a department store that looked like this and so she flies from like the seventh or eighth floor all the way down, and that also feels like born sexy yesterday sort of moments. When it comes to that, though, that sort of story also needs to not needs to be told. But that kind of like wonder, that kind of like I can do wonderful things, I'm not mad about telling that story you know, no sure.

Speaker 2:

I mean I think wonder is great and like it's interesting to think about the gender, like the difference between like this and like big, where the born sex yesterday character is actually a man, you know, which was actually really gross because he was 13 or whatever he was.

Speaker 1:

but I definitely think that adults need to be reminded that like wonder and joy are allowed and like it's complicated yeah yeah, yeah it is, and the fact that what makes her fully alive is love, because had the mannequin been destroyed, she would have just become a muse again.

Speaker 2:

Some, some number of years later, she wouldn't be gone.

Speaker 1:

She would be gone to jonathan, right, but it's a love story. And she does does say, like, of all the things she wants, she also wants. It's not that she doesn't want marriage, it's not that she doesn't want that part of life, she just wants it on her own terms. And she has said to Jonathan like you are special, you are different from the other men that I've been with. So you know it's a both ends.

Speaker 1:

Like this is part of, like it's. It fits within this particular genre. It's a romantic comedy and it's telling this specific type of story. And whose story is it? Like that's? That's the other question. Like is this? Is this emmy's story? Is this jonathan's story? Is this hollywood story? And, honestly, I'm not entirely sure. You know, my little romantic heart loved that the ending happened the way that it did, because it, you know, allowed them to be together and you know he was worthy of this amazing woman, who was so incredible. She was able to become a muse simply by asking for it. But is that really what was best for her? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know well, we're running short on time.

Speaker 2:

Do you have have any other key insights you want to share before I wrap us?

Speaker 1:

up. One last thing is the janitor who stopped the machine. He then starts kissing mannequins and he finds Roxy, who had been covered in detritus by the machine and knocked out, and he kisses her and he's like, oh, it's a miracle it works. And she's like get off of me. And like it's Roxy is done wrong by this movie. Yeah, sounds like it, and then, like you know, he starts, she runs away and is fired and like poor Roxy, but then at the end like he dives into the detritus and starts trying to kiss other mannequins and it's really like. I know it's done for comedic effect, but it's gross, yeah, it's gross.

Speaker 2:

It's like the no, no, no that's gross, yeah, yeah, anyway, all right. So let me see if I can reflect back to you what we talked about. So this film maybe passes becksell if emmy's mom has a name, but, but just barely. So we'll start there.

Speaker 2:

I think the thing that you loved the most about it was this character of Hollywood played by Meshack Taylor, who was flamboyant and stereotypical as a gay character from 1987.

Speaker 2:

It was a fully formed character who was not the butt of the joke, except for one very specific exception and the person who said it.

Speaker 2:

It was sort of an offhanded insult from a minor character who wasn't really more of an extra, allowed to have a sexual relationship with someone off screen and like be this fully formed character and friend and be comforted by a straight male friend, physically comforted with his arm around him in the era when princess diana had to, like issue statements that said it's safe to shake hands with and hug hiv and aids patients and and gay people in general, and how subversive that was. And then add to the subversion in the specific scene that Baby Emily remembered, where Hollywood used a fire hose to keep law enforcement at bay, which is significant both that this was a Black character doing that, with sort of echoes like the inversion of those images from the civil rights movement from Birmingham, but also that he was a gay character. So then we're also thinking about Stonewall and the ways in which that marginalized community, or the doubly marginalized community- of black gay folks like Marsha P Johnson, who were brutalized by law enforcement, so and how subversive that was.

Speaker 2:

And you noted that this subversion and this like inversion that we see with Hollywood with the fire hose on the cops, is in this like kind of throwaway, like cotton candy movie that like everybody went to because it was just fluff. And that's kind of the point. And, honestly, that's kind of the point of this whole project of deep thoughts about stupid shit, because that shit is in there whether we're paying attention or not. In this case it's something that we actually you and I are glad to see. So often it's stuff that we're not glad to see.

Speaker 2:

You've spent some time thinking about Emmy as the well, I guess Jonathan is Pygmalion, but Emmy as the sort of creation in the Pygmalion myth, whether or not she chose to come to life now with this creator, she had agency, it sounds like to even to remain human, like it was the gods granted her a wish, rather than like the strength of Jonathan's love or something like that. So it was really about her and she was the center of that transformation, as opposed to Jonathan, and that feels really about her and she was the center of that transformation as opposed to Jonathan, and that feels really good. There are ways, though, in which she fits the born sexy yesterday with some of the wonder, which is not a bad thing, but it just does sort of fit with the manic pixie dream. But the fact that we know she has had previous boyfriends, that we know she has had previous sexual partners, is very different from the traditional kind of born sexy yesterday idea. Let me see you also. You named Estelle Getty as a marker that this movie was not one that would make homophobia like a joke. I think it's really interesting that you sort of name like here it's this genre, and so we have this romance.

Speaker 2:

That was right at the end, like is this actually what's best for this 4,000-year-old entity? I don't know. Like 20th century marriage, heterosexual marriage I'm not so sure that's happy ending. Sorry, maybe I'm protecting here, but I think that's an interesting question. And the other question I think that you asked that I find really, really interesting is who is the protagonist? Whose story is this? I think that's a really fascinating question. Is it Emmy's story? Is it Jonathan's story? Is it Hollywood's story? I think that's a really, really interesting question.

Speaker 1:

Well, one thing that I one of the things that I said is that, like this film is surprisingly great, that doesn't mean it's without problems. It uses sexual harassment as a joke. Roxy is really done wrong by this movie, like she's shown to be materialistic and things like that, but she doesn't deserve what happens to her, and the idea that Kim Cattrall is Egyptian is not okay, right, you also named the fact, regarding Roxy, that that scene, which is in some ways ridiculous that this person is jealous of a mannequin also is plausible the way they set it up in the context, yeah, which I think speaks to the power of the writing

Speaker 1:

yes, yeah, yeah. In this ridiculous movie, like, there's a reason why it's a cult classic, like, uh, even though, like roger ebert gave it a half a star, he hated it, wow. But it is a cult classic in part because of Hollywood there are people who love this because of Hollywood. But then also there is something very cohesive about this storytelling. And then I just want to give my props to Kim Cattrall. I really, really think that she got Moxie and there's just something about like she feels like and I know this is somewhat behind-the-scenes stuff and meta but she is unapologetic and non-compromising and I feel like she takes characters who are unapologetic and non-compromising in a lot of ways, even in fluffy little movies like this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, cool. Well, I'm glad to be reminded of this film. So thank you for that.

Speaker 1:

it's, it's if you want to, if you want to just like have an afternoon with some popcorn, and just it's, it's worthwhile.

Speaker 2:

It's worthwhile, it's a delight so next week, next week, I am scheduled to bring you my deep thoughts about mrs doubtfire oh, very interesting, See you then.

Speaker 2:

This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes.

Speaker 1:

Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode.

Speaker 2:

Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?