Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast

Independence Day: Deep Thoughts About American Exceptionalism, Sci Fi Disaster Movies, and Jeff Goldblum in a Flight Suit

• Tracie Guy-Decker & Emily Guy Birken • Episode 91

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Welcome to Earth.

The 1996 Roland Emmerich-helmed film Independence Day was one of the touchstone movies for Emily's generation, so her flabber was absolutely gasted to learn Tracie had never seen it until a few years ago. Just in time for the 4th of July, Emily walks Tracie through what made this movie such a monumental hit in the U.S. and abroad, despite its jingoistic American exceptionalism and skin-deep application of science fiction storytelling tropes. 

Both in 1996 and again in 2025, Emily appreciated feeling seen as an American Jew via the characters of David and Julius Levinson (played by Jeff Goldblum in his absolute prime and Judd Hirsch, respectively) and she loved the way German-born Emmerich celebrates America's diversity as our greatest strength. That celebration of diversity includes Emmerich's behind-the-scenes fight to have Will Smith in the lead role when the executives balked at a Black leading man. 

But this mashup of disaster and sci-fi movies also appeals to some ugly stereotypes Americans believe about the rest of the world while refusing to ask any deeper questions about how aliens or people would react to enormous, world-changing events.

Release…me…   by listening in to this episode!

Mentioned in this episode:

Space Opera by Catherynne Valente

This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thou​​ghts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls


We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.

We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com

We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.

Speaker 1:

This is an American story about how Americans figure it out and Americans share it with the rest of the world and Americans are the best. And like that's particularly ugly with the fact that these aliens are trying to destroy the major cities around the world, except when it comes to, you know, the places where we don't imagine there are major cities to you know the places where we don't imagine there are major cities.

Speaker 1:

Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters. You know what's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. Hi, I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1996 Roland Emmerich film Independence Day with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you. Let's dive in. So Trace shocked the hell out of me to learn that you had not seen this movie until like last year or something.

Speaker 2:

I think it was a little longer ago than last year, but not much. But tell me what you know about.

Speaker 1:

Independence Day yeah, I think it was pre little longer ago than last year, but not much. But tell me what you know about Independence Day, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I think it was pre-COVID or maybe during COVID, but it's definitely in the past like five years that I saw it for the first time.

Speaker 1:

So I remember Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum, both looking very attractive. Oh my God.

Speaker 2:

I remember aliens and a virus.

Speaker 2:

I remember aliens and a virus and that's how we get them, because Americans are toxic and I remember so the scene when Brent Spiner is like the doctor and he gets like the scientist and he gets like slammed against the wall and then through his voice the alien goes release me Muppets from Space, spoofs that. So that scene when I finally saw it, was sort of like a validation of Muppet movie, which was hilarious and delightful to me, like I'm finally watching this cultural touchstone and I'm like, oh, look, the Muppets.

Speaker 1:

Whereas the Muppets were hoping you'd go oh look, Independence Day, Independence Day, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Well, I'm a little backward about a lot of things, so anyway, sometimes you put the alien before the horse. What can I say? What can I say? Muppets are my touchstone, so that's what I remember. But tell me M aside from the fact that here we are, right in front of the 4th of July, why are we?

Speaker 1:

talking about this film. So this film came out in 1996. I was 17 years old. This was back when I saw at least one movie a week in theater. I was an avid consumer of pop culture and films specifically. Just, really quickly, the fact that it's 96, that actually makes a lot of sense to me. Now, why I haven't seen it?

Speaker 2:

Because that was the middle of my college career, so we were at very different kind of like very specific moments in terms of consumption of pop culture.

Speaker 1:

Anyway, carry on. So, yeah, if there was a cultural touchstone from like, let's say, 2011, I would have missed it because I was in the midst of early parenthood and so television from my college years I missed. I still consumed quite a lot of movies it was. Also there was a huge marketing campaign. So this was a movie that was not to be missed among my peer group and I was very excited to see it. It also was Will Smith, was the hottest thing out there and I was very excited to see him in this because he was at the height of his fame, the height of his charm, the height of his line delivery, because he's very funny in this movie. Line delivery, because he's very funny in this movie.

Speaker 1:

So I was really excited to see this movie and I remember that summer 1996, I went to the Kenyon Young Writers Program, which was over the 4th of July weekend, and I am trying to remember if I had seen it before I went or if we were talking about it, that I was going to see it afterwards. But there was definitely discussion among the other young writers about this movie. So this was it was important to those of us who were, you know, around that age. It was important to you know, those of us who were in high school at the time and it was huge. It was everywhere. It was a very expensive movie to make and it was the biggest movie of 1996. It was a blockbuster and made huge amounts of money both in the United States and internationally, which is kind of incredible considering how America-centric this movie is.

Speaker 1:

So on re-watching the film last night and I've seen it many times since the thing that really struck me and there's several aspects of it Now there were a couple things that bothered me, not necessarily when I saw it at 17, but as I re-watched it as I got older, in my 20s, as I was studying cultural imperialism and things like that was the way that it's used American exceptionalism and there's kind of a double-edged sword. So some of the American exceptionalism is good and I found out there's some behind the scenes stuff with American exceptionalism in that the studio didn't want Will Smith as the lead because they didn't want a black actor yeah, I've lost who it was that they offered it to, who read the script and was like this is garbage and didn't want it. It was like Ethan Hawke or someone like that, but I might be misremembering, but they wanted a white actor, so it wasn't just American exceptionalism as the country a white actor.

Speaker 2:

So it wasn't just american exceptionalism like, as the country was explicitly like white nationalist americans.

Speaker 1:

Well, but that's the thing. So, within, like roland emmerich, who is actually was born in germany, so he's german-american, which I also I find interesting. But the american exceptionalism is that this group of disparate people, which is part of what America fuck yeah, we do is like you know, we are this disparate group of people and we work together and we make it work is part of the American exceptionalism story we tell ourselves. So like there is this double-edged sword of American exceptionalism and nationalism. And there was some of that behind the scenes as well, because Roland Emmerich fought for Will Smith. Oh, I see, I see, I see.

Speaker 2:

So it was like corporate meddling, yes, corporate meddling, that didn't want Smith.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I see that's one thing that was important to me about this film. The other thing that I was amused by as a 17-year-old and I'm now realizing I felt seen, without realizing how special it was was feeling seen as an American Jew because Jeff Goldblum's character is Jewish and his father, who's played by Judd Hirsch, is everybody's Jewish dad or grandpa, father or uncle. I read something last night from a Jewish commentator saying that Judd Hirsch's character is a Jewish stereotype, or cringy Jewish stereotype, and I was asking my husband afterwards I was like have you seen it recently? He's like, because he didn't want to watch it with me. He's like not recently. I was like does he seem like a Jewish stereotype to you? And I was describing a couple of things. He's like no, everyone's got that uncle. I was like no, everyone's got that uncle.

Speaker 2:

I was like isn't that the definition?

Speaker 1:

of a stereotype, but I feel like a stereotype is when it's turned up to 11, whereas this is not turned up to 11. It just is Okay. So you're saying it's a relatable character, not a caricature.

Speaker 2:

Yes exactly.

Speaker 1:

I feel like Judd Hirsch is just being Judd Hirsch Character, not a caricature, and considering the last 18 months of being an American Jew, that felt really good last night watching this movie.

Speaker 1:

I hear that I hear that. And then the other thing that I felt that was really interesting watching this last night was recognizing how much this film owed like, how much of the DNA of this film was disaster movies. Like how much of this the dna of this film was, uh, disaster movies. Disaster movies have never really been much of my favorites, but I remember watching towering inferno and the poseidon adventure with dad growing up.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, he like dug those right like I feel like he showed us poseidon adventure on purpose. Yeah, there's something very those share a, a DNA with a type of haunted house slash, murder mystery slash there's only one left kind of story that I also enjoy. I think there's something specific about the disaster films, though, that like kind of it provides that like, oh yeah, I could survive, because you relate with the hero and then it's like it gives a certain amount of comfort because these disasters are terrifying and there's very little one can do to actually survive.

Speaker 1:

You know, it's a lot about luck. But then we put ourselves in the role of this hero who then survives and we're like oh yeah, I'll be all right.

Speaker 1:

It's like a comfort. There's also this sense of then. There are people who are self-sacrificing to help everyone else of then there are people who are self-sacrificing to help everyone else. And then there are the people who die because of bad luck, but others are compassionate towards them and we see we can put ourselves in these human moments and say like I wouldn't be the weasel, I would be the compassionate person who is like searching for survivors and helping who I can and the ones who can't make it. I would stiff upper lip and be there for the children. You know like there's something very like comforting and like I would be the good ones.

Speaker 1:

Not Right. It allows us to sort of stroke our own ego without having actually to go through the trauma. Yes, exactly, exactly. There's something about that, and so it's. I feel like this is the first. I don't know I might be wrong, but this marriage of disaster movie and science fiction is really interesting. It is interesting. I do not think it's the first. I mean, aren't the like giant monster movies kind of bad? Yeah, I suppose that's true. Like the not King Kong, but like Godzilla, I feel like, and like other. But do we actually get to know and care about the characters who die in those. I haven't seen them in long enough, but and like I've never seen the original, like the original Godzillas, I know the Matthew Broderick version yeah, but that's also.

Speaker 1:

Roland Emmerich and it came after, but it was based on something earlier right, but that's interesting that it's also rolling emmerich.

Speaker 2:

Anyway, sorry we are like we haven't even started the synopsis yet. I keep distracting you.

Speaker 1:

I'm a bad influence today so let me kind of remind you what's going on with this. I had forgotten. I thought this movie was a tight 90 minutes. That's how I remembered, remembered it. No, no, it's nearly three hours. Are you serious? It's like two hours and 42 minutes. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Oh wow, that's probably why it took me so long to watch it.

Speaker 1:

So the synopsis. This time I'm going to do something a little bit different because the way this movie is set up we are introduced to a bunch of different groups of characters who end up converging on Area 51 in Nevada, and so I'm going to introduce the different characters and then kind of talk about in broad strokes what happens. So the characters are Will Smith is basically our protagonist. We don't meet him until like 20 or 30 minutes into the movie, but his name is Captain Stephen Hiller. He is a Marine and fighter pilot. He's a squadron leader with the Black Knight Squadron stationed at El Toro in California. He wants to be an astronaut. He is in a relationship with a woman named Jasmine who has a little boy named Dylan, who is not Steve's son. But he is very serious about Jasmine. He's bought an engagement ring for her. But his friend Jimmy, who is played by Harry Connick Jr oh, another very handsome man, so beautiful Steve gets a rejection from NASA. Jimmy says you're never going to get to fly the shuttle if you marry a stripper, because that's what Jasmine does for a living.

Speaker 1:

Then we meet President Thomas J Whitmore, who's played by Bill Pullman. He is a former fighter pilot and a Gulf War veteran. He is married to Marilyn Whitmore, who's played by Mary McDonnell. So the president is in the White House. The first lady is in Los Angeles for some sort of conference. When we meet them they're on the phone talking about how she's heading home after the conference. At a luncheon they have a small child, patricia, played by Mae Whitman. So she's like about seven. I mean very little girl. So that's the first family. Then, also in the White House, is Constance Spano, who is the director of communications. So she's got the Carolyn Levitt's job. Now Connie's ex-husband is David Levinson, played by Jeff Goldblum. Wait, who's Connie, connie, constance, the, oh, the communications, yeah, okay, david Levinson, played by Jeff Goldblum. He's MIT educated and he's a satellite engineer and tech expert, but he works for a cable company in New York City. His father is Julius Levinson, played by Judd Hirsch. So there are multiple people we meet at David's workplace as well.

Speaker 1:

There are several other people in the government that I kind of skipped over. There's General William Gray, who's the Commandant of the United States Marine Corps. He's played by Robert Lagia. There is the Secretary of Defense and former CIA Director, albert Nimzicki, played by James Rebhorn. There is Major Mitchell, who is from the US Air Force. He's a commanding officer at Area 51. We meet him later on, but he's played by Adam Baldwin. And we also meet in California an alcoholic former fighter pilot named Russell Case, played by Randy Quaid, who I think is just being himself. He is a crop duster. When we first meet him he's dusting the wrong field. He has three children named Miguel, alicia and Troy, and I think that's the characters. So characters are based in New York City, washington DC and Los Angeles.

Speaker 1:

So as the film begins there's a shadow over the moon, over where the American flag is planted from the moon, landing in 69. There's a giant ship coming towards Earth. Things break off from it and enormous ships come over and settle over major cities all over the world, including Los Angeles, new York and DC. They start scrambling cable signals. David Jeff Goldblum is looking at like the signal that's scrambling it and he's like, oh, if we just wait seven hours it'll clear up. Because he realizes the signal is like binary and it's a countdown. And then like finally looks at what the president is saying in the intelligence briefings, he's like, oh no, that's not a countdown until it goes away, it's a countdown until destruction.

Speaker 1:

So he tries to call his ex-wife, connie. It turns out that they divorced because he felt like she was spending too much time on her political career. And she hangs up on him because she refuses to listen to him, because he's saying you have to get out of the White House. And she's like, oh, this old saw he goes to get his father because he doesn't drive. You see Jeff Goldblum go everywhere on a bike, so he goes to get his father, who has a car, and they drive down to DC. So this obviously takes forever and they only have seven hours and basically are able to. At the he became president, they got into a fistfight because he accused him of having an affair with Connie. So he's able to convince him this is a countdown and they're able to take Marine One, the helicopter out and then get to Air Force One.

Speaker 1:

So meanwhile New York is being destroyed.

Speaker 1:

We see several of David's co-workers getting killed In Los Angeles. Steve Hiller, will Smith, has been called to the Army base or the Marine base. Rather, he has told Jasmine hey, just in case, why don't you and Dylan pack up a few things and come to the base? You know, just to be safe, up a few things and come to the base, you know, just to be safe, and she has gone into her workplace just to pick up her check. She's talked into working, so she's running behind and she sees, you know, that people are like gathering on rooftops. So Jasmine and her son Dylan are stuck in traffic trying to get out. When the destruction comes. They're in this like tunnel and like balls of fire are coming. They have their dog with them and there's this like locked door for like some sort of access panel. She manages to kick the door open, gets in and like calls the dog who comes running and jumps in with the balls of fire behind him. It was like why would the fire not go in there? It's not, there's oxygen.

Speaker 2:

Don't bother me with physics here, I also.

Speaker 1:

I love animals. I do, and like I care whether or not Boomer the dog lives, I do.

Speaker 2:

But what about all the people? That's not how movies work, Em.

Speaker 1:

All those people are dying and you want me to carry about the golden retriever?

Speaker 2:

that is how movies work anyway.

Speaker 1:

So jasmine, dylan and boomer make it. Meanwhile, hiller and the rest of the black knight squadron are sent to shoot at the giant ship over Los Angeles. It does nothing because they have shields. Little fighter pilots from the giant ship come after them and all of the squadron are taken down, except for Hiller, who manages to shake all of them except for one. He is able to eject and destroy both his and the other ship and pulls the alien out. He has the welcome to Earth line before he punches it and then, like, wraps it up in his parachute and is dragging it through the desert. So meanwhile, jasmine has found a municipal truck, found the keys in the visor, which is just have them be in the ignition.

Speaker 2:

That's how movies work.

Speaker 1:

Well, but it was abandoned. It would make sense if it was abandoned in the ignition. But you know what? Okay, roland, it's fine. It's fine, roland, it's fine, I'll give you that. Anyway. So it's this huge municipal truck and she's going around and gathering whatever survivors she can find. She finds the first lady who has been very, very badly injured. Oh, wow. So she is heading to El Toro base to try to get to Steve. To try to get to Steve, steve, in the desert, comes across the caravan of RVs which includes Randy Quaid's Russell Case because that's where he and his kids live among a whole bunch of other people. And he says I saw a base as I was flying over. They're like it's not on the map. He's like I know it's there and so they take him there.

Speaker 1:

While on Air Force One there's a large argument between the president and a bunch of other people and Julius says, like what about Area 51?

Speaker 1:

And the president's like I assure you, there's no Area 51. And Nismiki, who is the former CIA head and the current Secretary of Defense and the human antagonist, is like well, and so they come to area 51 where they meet brent spiners, dr okun, who is just dr noonie and sing from star trek, the next generation, totally. So he shows them they have a crash-landed vehicle from the 50s, one of their little fighter pilot spaceships, and they have three alien bodies on ice. And they're like you have to have clearance. And he's got, you know, this whole caravan of RVs. He's in the back of a pickup truck. He's like, oh, you want clearance, I'll show you clearance. And he, like, opens up the parachute and shows him the alien body. And they're like, whoa, okay, let him in. And so that leads to the scene that you remember the release me because they start trying to operate on it and it's not dead and causes all kinds of havoc and has some sort of like psychic yes.

Speaker 1:

Because, they determined. It doesn't have any kind of vocal cords, so the only way it can possibly communicate is telepathically. So it does something to Brent Spiner, dr Okun, and then it beams its thoughts to the president and tells him basically, basically, this is what we do. We're locusts, y'all are in trouble, yeah. So they decide to try to nuke the next ship that is over Houston, because that's the only possible way to just destroy it. That doesn't work. And they've nuked Houston. Just destroy it. That doesn't work. And they've nuked Houston.

Speaker 1:

David, who is very idealistic, is like freaking out because, like you know what's the point, let's just destroy the planet and they won't want it anymore. His father finds him and says you know, we all lose our faith sometimes. You know, I haven't spoken to God since your mother died. And he says something that gives David the idea like, oh, what if we give them a computer virus and then we can bring down the shields? Steve learns that the El Toro base has been destroyed. He steals a helicopter to go look for Jasmine, finds her, brings everyone back. The First Lady lives long enough to see the president and her daughter and then dies. Lives long enough to see the president and her daughter and then dies and Goldblum says or David says, let's take the old ship to the mothership, I can give it a computer virus that'll take down the shields and then we can use fighter pilots to destroy the ships. And then you know, victory, all good stuff.

Speaker 1:

Nismith's Nismicky the weasel is like you know, this is terrible. You've made so many mistakes. This is the CIA guy, the CIA slash Secretary of Defense, and the president fires him and says yeah, let's go ahead with this, but we're gonna need more pilots. So they like all right, we need as many pilots as possible and they coordinate across the world. They have to use Morse code possible and they coordinate across the world. They have to use Morse code to reach out to everyone across the world because the aliens are using their satellites and they're able to do that. Steve and Jasmine get married before they go. Connie tries to convince David that he doesn't have to go because she's like great, now he's ambitious. And we see Russell sober up and say okay, I'm gonna do this, be a fighter pilot. Steve and David are able to get to the mothership. They upload the virus no problem. Like yeah, I have to try three times to get my. Get a thumb drive in.

Speaker 2:

Right or to like connect to Instagram and Facebook.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, bluetooth is not able to connect ever on the first try. Also, like aliens, write in computer languages that David knows. Oh, he's brilliant, he went to MIT.

Speaker 2:

They use C++. Obviously, David knows.

Speaker 1:

Well, he's brilliant, he went to MIT. They use C++, obviously, but they're stuck, they can't get out. So they have a nuclear missile and 30 seconds to get out. So they're like, okay, we'll set that off. And they know they're going to die. So they set that off. And then they're unstuck and they're like, oh, maybe we can get out. And so they're able to just barely make it out. The fighter pilots are trying to destroy the ships, but even with the shields down they're not making enough of a difference until russell case flies up into the ship as it is opening to put out its like laser beam, huge death star weapon right, like from the meme with the yeah, which brings it down, destroys it, and so we see rejoicing across the world, including really offensive, like african children wearing very little and holding spears rejoicing, and I mean it's just awful.

Speaker 1:

I thought there were ships above all, like lots of major cities around the world. Yeah, but only one had, whatever the guy's name was, go up into its belly. No, they say. Now we know what does it? So share around the world. Share around the world what they need to do. So it's a repeatable disaster for the. It's a repeatable thing. Yes, all right. So then they go out to the desert to. They're like, okay, we need to go get hillar and david and they find them. They're looking fine walking out of the desert, like that is. I remember going to erica's house and we watched it, we rewound and watched and rewound and watched the two of them walking in the desert in those flight suits.

Speaker 2:

I think like 10 minutes worth, and apparently we are now mapping Emily's erotic map.

Speaker 1:

Well, I was texting Tracy last night going like 1996 era, Jeff Goldblum is my sexual orientation. Apparently we have reached the end of it. The one thing I glossed over was Bill Pullman, the president, saying you know, today we celebrate our independence. You know, it is fitting that it is July 4th, American independence, but it will be the world's independence. Oh, we are all Americans now.

Speaker 2:

All right, all right. Where are we going to start with it? I mean, are we going to start with American exceptionalism, since we just said that?

Speaker 1:

I want to start in the good place.

Speaker 2:

Rather than in We'll make it a sandwich, let's make it a shit sandwich.

Speaker 1:

We'll put the shit in the middle. I don't want to put that. Let's start with the. Let's not lead with that. Yeah, let's start with the marble rye that I really enjoy, Okay, Okay, not lead with that. Yeah, let's start with the marble rye that I really enjoy, okay, okay.

Speaker 1:

So, feeling seen as american jew because I so enjoyed judd hirsch as julius levinson, I so enjoyed the relationship between david and julius. So when we meet them, they're playing chess in the park in New York City and Julius is like haranguing David in that like very particular Jewish parent to son or child way, where he's like you're still wearing your wedding ring, what it's been four years since the divorce, and David's like it's been three. It's like it's not healthy. And David's like you're smoking. That's what's not healthy, Like it's just, it is so familiar and so delightful. And I'm like afterwards I'm like is Roland Emmerich Jewish? Because he wrote it along with the producer Devlin, Dean Devlin? And no, Emmerich is not Jewish. Dean Devlin has a Jewish father and a Filipino mother and apparently he based the Judd Hirsch's character on his uncle. And so I was like, okay, all right, that's where this is coming from. All right, All right. Like this is from life, clearly.

Speaker 1:

And then the thing that I also really loved and I think this is also partially coming from Hirsch and Goldblum themselves Jeff Goldblum gets up because they're playing chess and Goldblum wins. Like completely surprising Hirsch and this is checkmate Pops he gets up and he goes over and he puts his arms around his father and he gives him a big kiss on the cheek and he's all right, I'll see you later, pops, I love you. And that like the, just the affection that is so natural and unashamed unashamed yes, that's exactly the word which we do not see very often in pop culture between two grown men, even father and son, and in the biggest film of 1996, the cultural touchstone of the 90s. And then the fact that when David is freaking out, so we see multiple times like so the other thing that David is giving his father a hard time about is he has coffee in a styrofoam cup. He's like do you know how long it takes for these to decompose? And David is like looking at the chessboard and his father says I'm decomposing while you're deciding.

Speaker 1:

They're having that kind of back and forth, the banter, yeah and so. And he's constantly like you know, there's a recycling bin right here and blah, blah, blah, blah. And meanwhile there's so much product placement and it's like a Fruitopia thing which I'm like. Oh my God, do you remember Fruitopia? I don't. Was that a soda or something? It was a juice drink.

Speaker 2:

If you see it, you'll be like, yeah, I recognize it, yeah, yeah, and then Coke cans everywhere and stuff like that anyway.

Speaker 1:

So like you constantly see him like, and when he says he's, he's going, when he's talking to connie and she's like now, you're ambitious. He says, well, I've always been trying to save the planet. So when he's freaking out after they, they nuke houston, and he's just like his dad's, like what are you doing? He's like I'm making a mess, I'm destroying everything. Because you know, like if we, if we mess up the planet, maybe they don't want it. And his father says to him like we all lose faith sometimes. You know, I haven't spoken to God since your mother died.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you said that in your synopsis. That really struck me, because the fact that his father understands what David's faith is and recognizes that it is just as real and just as meaningful as his own faith in God, in the Torah, that feels very Jewish too. And then, as David is leaving to get on the spaceship, he gives Julius his kippah and Torah. Torah, yeah, like a book, a Tanakh Like a book, yeah, like a Tanakh, a Tanakh. And it says, just in case. And there's a point where Area 51 is deep underground and they get all Wait, sorry, julius gives it to David, or David gives it to Julius.

Speaker 2:

No, david gives it to david. No, david gives it to julius.

Speaker 1:

He has okay, uh-huh, okay. There's no explanation of how he has it, why he has it. I mean it doesn't make sense, but whatever, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, area 51 is deep underground. They have gotten all the people in the rvs like down and so julius has put the keep on and he started praying and he brings people around. He's like come around, come aroundah on and he started praying and he brings people around. He's like come around, come around. And he's just started praying and like he's probably the only Jew there. I mean, really, what are the odds? And Nizmiki the weasel, like, comes to sit down and Julius has started praying and Nizmiki says but I'm not Jewish. And Julius says nobody's perfect. Now another one feels so seen. So like all of that it's just lovely to have in a major motion picture, you know.

Speaker 2:

That wasn't telling a Jewish story, that wasn't telling a Jewish story.

Speaker 1:

You know, yeah, yeah, and that's part of the nice part of American exceptionalism, because Hezbollah asked for parts of this film to be cut or the film to be banned or boycotted, because there are points where they're reaching out to people internationally, where you see camps with Israeli flags and Palestinian flags where they're working together, oh, wow. And then they also were like you know, it's propaganda that a Jewish scientist figures it out. They said that and Jeff Goldblum responded like clearly you're not paying attention to the film, because it's like people working together figure it out. Right, because it's like people working together figure it out.

Speaker 1:

And that is part of what's the idealism, the positive side, the positive side, the idealism of American exceptionalism Right, the idea that our diversity is our strength.

Speaker 2:

Yes, which we seem to have forgotten lately.

Speaker 1:

Yes, there's a scene that I remember really sticking with me as a 17-year-old when Jasmine has found the First Lady, she doesn't say anything to her about having recognized her but she's, like you know, taking care of her, being very kind to her as best she can in this wasteland, and she brings her son over, like they're talking a little bit. And she brings her son over and says Dylan, come meet the First Lady. And so Marilyn says I didn't realize you'd recognized me. And Jasmine says Dylan, come meet the first lady. And so Marilyn says I didn't realize you'd recognized me.

Speaker 2:

And Jasmine says well, I didn't make a big deal of it.

Speaker 1:

So Marilyn asks what do you do for a living? She says I'm a dancer. She's like, oh, ballet. She says no, exotic. And the first lady says oh, I'm sorry. And Jasmine says I'm not, I make a good living. Says I'm not, I make a good living, it's good money. I have my own house and what I do for my like I'll do anything for my son and he's worth it. And the first lady has this like kind of look of like I don't know.

Speaker 1:

It's this very interesting conversation between these two women of very different social classes and that is another aspect of like what I feel like Roland Emmerich was trying to say. He was trying to make it clear that NASA was wrong and Harry Connick Jr's character was correct when saying, like you know, you're not going to be able to fly the shuttle if you're married to a stripper. Like I think that is a correct assessment, that nasa would not do that right. But emmerich is judging nasa for that. And emmerich is judging nasa for it and making it clear like that jasmine has nothing to be ashamed of and the first lady was wrong. And does she come to see that? Yeah, so, and that's another aspect of it.

Speaker 1:

Part of American exceptionalism is like you can make your way in whatever way works for you, and that Jasmine is, in a lot of ways, the like, compassionate heart of this film, because you see her at every point doing whatever she can to take care of the people around her, including another one of the dancers. She has a conversation with a dancer who wants to go greet the aliens and she's like please don't. I'm really I got a bad feeling about this. Please get out of town. And you know she's the one who, like she, finds this truck and instead of using it just to get out, she's trying to find other survivors, gathering survivors.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so that's lovely. That's lovely. On the other hand, this is an American story about how Americans figure it out and Americans share it with the rest of the world. And Americans are the best. Right.

Speaker 1:

We turn everyone into Americans, yes, especially with the Independence Day and the Fourth of July thing this day on the 4th of July thing and like that's particularly ugly with the fact that these aliens are trying to destroy the major cities around the world, except when it comes to, you know, the places where we don't imagine. There are major cities when we Americans don't imagine.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, right.

Speaker 1:

There's really thriving, beautiful major cities.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, right, right and that's Ew.

Speaker 1:

I didn't see that as a 17-year-old Like. I remember being like a little bit with the images of like I thought it was cities when you see like the very stereotypical tribe, the tribal yeah I'm putting quotes around that yeah but I didn't have the ability to articulate that yeah, but it's also there are, just as were, even more brilliant analysts. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, all over the world, all over the world, All over the world, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So you know, why is it all Americans Like? Why are we not coordinating with other people throughout all of this, Right, right? And so that kind of brings me a little bit to one thing that actually Roger Ebert brought up in his review of it. This is very skin deep science fiction, and part of that is because it's a disaster movie, but it doesn't ask deep questions. It's a video game science fiction. It's like oh, it's bad guys, let's get rid of them, but it doesn't ask all right. So if this is what they do, what's their original planet like? How do they live? Why are they doing this their? Why all those things? Why did they send something here in the 50s? If they have telepathy, what does their pacifists do, Are they?

Speaker 2:

no-transcript.

Speaker 1:

And I think what you're saying here about this and the skin-deep science fiction is that it didn't even ask the what-if.

Speaker 2:

It just said we need, let's make it an alien and didn't go any further.

Speaker 1:

There wasn't, there's no, there are no what yeah yeah, and even like it doesn't even really ask like the human, what ifs. Yeah, I mean it does a little with the people who are like I'm gonna go greet the aliens yeah, I mean, there's a teensy bit of that like how would people react to this?

Speaker 1:

and like there's a teensy bit of that Like how would people react to this? And like there's a teensy bit of like. I read this great book called Space Opera by Kat Valenti, where, basically, to determine if a new species is discovered and where the new species humans are, you have to compete in a singing competition, because art is how you determine it, Because art is how you determine it. And so, since David Bowie, Prince, and like several others are dead, there's the character David Bowie, Prince, Freddie Mercury are dead the character has to compete and one of the things that it says is, like you know, upon meeting new alien, people generally fall into one of two categories they want to kill it or fuck it. Okay, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, that's about right. Even that, like I was noticing, like after Jimmy dies, Harry Connick Jr's character dies. There's a moment where Will Smith goes no, Jimmy, and then he's, like you know, fighting for his life, but then he's like dragging the alien through the desert, quipping, and it's hilarious, he's like you know like I'm not mad.

Speaker 1:

You know this is supposed to be my weekend off and what the hell is that smell and it's hilarious. But at the same time he doesn't know what's happening with Jasmine and the little boy he thinks of as his son. His best friend is dead, as is his entire squadron. It's also kind of like Will Smith's schtick, exactly, but that to me it's a movie, you know, like that to me, takes me out of the story and tells me, yeah, it breaks the illusion for you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm watching a movie.

Speaker 1:

I'm not seeing a story of how humans would handle this. Yeah, I hear that. I hear that we are running out of time and I want to make sure you get to the things that you want to get to. So do you want to come back around to the marriage of disaster movies and science fiction at all? I think that combination of disaster movie and science fiction is really an interesting I think it's an interesting genre combination because it seems like a natural fit in a lot of ways, but I think that it has the problem of being skin deep. I think that's exactly right.

Speaker 1:

I was just thinking that it sort of necessitates the skin deep because in order to get the trappings of the disaster film, we don't have time to spend. We don't have, like the real estate, if you will, the airtime, real estate to spend on the what-ifs that make science fiction more than skin deep. And that's why, when you get to the oh, we'll give the, the computer, a virus, like. It has to be that easy, it has to be that quick, because otherwise you're gonna have, instead of a three-hour movie, you're gonna have a seven-hour movie. Right, even with that it was a three-hour movie, exactly right. Even with super easy like killing the big bad was actually not that hard once you figured out how to do it yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's interesting. If there was one other thing that you do, do we need to circle back to? Oh just the. I do find it really interesting that Roland Emmerich is German, american and was born in Germany and this is such an America fuck yeah. Movie. I mean that makes a certain amount of sense.

Speaker 2:

It's like the zeal of the convert.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and there's the zeal of the convert. There's also he's German, american which I can remember when I spent six months in France with a host mother who was just barely old enough to remember World War II and she at one point asked me what I thought of Germans. Where she was talking about her best friend was British and they fought like cats and dogs but had this deep affection for each other. And she said that's how she felt about the English is that they bickered but they loved each other. Where she was very, very polite with Germans but did not trust them because of her experience remembering World War II, and I told her I felt bad, I felt very bad for Germans my age and anyone who was born after World War II, and she's like, really, and I was like, well, you know, you live with this legacy that you have no control over, you're born into and it's so horrific. So I feel like Emmerich, who was born after World War II. It would be very appealing to think of that American exceptionalism where you can remake yourself.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

It would be a very appealing kind of sensation to want to take on. I can see that that makes sense. Let me see if I can reflect back quickly some of the highlights that we talked about in this movie. There was a lot actually that we talked about here, so in no particular order. In fact I'll start with the most recent is sort of like you named, a certain skin deep science fiction in this film that like kind of puts aliens in the role of bad guys but doesn't actually the deep what-if questions that make science fiction really interesting and that we agreed, that we seem to have a consensus that that actually is necessitated by the fact that this is a science fiction disaster mashup. Science fiction disaster film mashup. It's not pure science fiction, it's science fiction as disaster film and there just isn't room in the story for the deeper kind of what ifs and iterating of science fiction at its core. That asks these interesting questions, these deep, deep questions.

Speaker 1:

The American exceptionalism in this film, both what is good about it insofar as, like our diversity is our strength, and like a whole bunch of misfit, disparate people pulling together for the greater good and that sort of that mythos of America that is remains appealing, and certainly we understand, how the German-American writer-director would have latched onto that potentially, especially given his German heritage that you just talked about and sort of the legacy of Nazism in his history, to try and like rebuild oneself and remake oneself, not based on even one's profession but just one's like moral character, as epitomized by Jasmine, the exotic dancer who is the emotional heart of this film. But there's also an American exceptionalism which is just kind of jingoism, which is doesn't even see people in the rest of the planet as people. But there's no sense that there are scientists in China or in Turkey or in Bogota or in Lagos who could have helped?

Speaker 1:

Or Mozambique.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there's no sense that there are brilliant minds, brilliant humans around the world.

Speaker 1:

It's just missing and there's also just straight up up like racist images of these like stereotypical African tribal people celebrating the destruction of the aliens, which is kind of icky because we have this strong relationship in a very thick Jewish accent between Julius and David that kind of recognizes different ways of being faithful.

Speaker 2:

That sort of says to someone like you're not Jewish, Well, nobody's perfect.

Speaker 1:

You know that just is kind of delightful and like feels like you're in on the joke.

Speaker 1:

I think is sort of what I heard there and also within that Like feels like you're in on the joke, I think is sort of what I heard there and also within that, which is not necessarily Jewish explicitly but is beautiful the relationship between father and son, this unashamed affection, including physical affection, which we never get or almost never get between two grown men who are presumably straight in mainstream media, especially not in the mid 90s and the fact that this was in this blockbuster like hugely expensive and highly promoted film that everyone was talking about in 1996 feels really special.

Speaker 1:

Let me see, I think that those are the main things that we talked about. I mean, I think on the Jewish question there was a little bit of conversation about like is Judd Hirsch's character a stereotype in a negative sense? And we kind of made the distinction between being a character that reads as true, useful, not universal, versus being a caricature which exaggerates to humorous extent, like different components In terms of this. Let me just come back really quickly to the skin deep science fiction. That also led to a sense that the solution was like really freaking easy because the aliens apparently code in linux or c++ or something else that that jeff goldblum's character, david, would know, you know, even though they don't like, have mouths or vocal cords and and communicate via telepathy they obviously code in

Speaker 1:

the language that Jeff Goldblum can speak. I mean, coding is universal, of course. Yeah, clearly I missed and then we really need to wrap up is the fact that smith's shtick in the desert was hilarious but actually broke the illusion for you because it did not feel truthful, it did not feel plausible for a man who had just been through what he'd been through. Yes, yeah, and there were other moments like that, like the fireballs in the in the tunnel, damn dog. I mean like, yeah, I'm glad the dog lived, but right, but it broke the illusion. It made you remember you're in a movie. Yes, very much so, anything I forgot. And then we need to say goodbye. I still can't believe you.

Speaker 2:

You didn't see it until you're in your 40s until a few years ago and it was a validation of a muppet movie for me, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yep. So next time, what are you bringing me? Pretty sure I'm bringing you weird science next time.

Speaker 2:

Ooh, I think that's not going to be a good one.

Speaker 1:

I'm really worried about how that's going to go.

Speaker 2:

I don't think that's going to hold up. I haven't rewatched it yet, but like I do not have high hopes for this one.

Speaker 1:

All right, we'll see you then. See you then. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking.

Speaker 2:

You can support us at our Patreon.

Speaker 1:

There's a link in the show notes, or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening Our theme music is Professor. Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture.

Speaker 2:

And shouldn't you know?

Speaker 1:

what's in your head.