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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Rosemary's Baby with Ryan Cunningham: Deep Thoughts About Gaslighting, Monstrous Men, and Satanism in Pop Culture
This is no dream! This is really happening!
On this week's episode, Tracie and Emily are delighted to welcome award-winning writer/director and producer Ryan Cunningham to talk about Rosemary's Baby, the film that most influenced her own filmmaking and storytelling--but also made her wonder if she was a bad feminist considering the terrible deeds Roman Polanski later went to commit. The conversation covers the absurdity of two Jewish men shaping the idea of Satanism in pop culture, the mundane evil of how pregnant women are routinely gaslighted by the "guys" and doctors in their lives, and the complexity of admiring Polanski's genius. Also: Ruth Gordon as Minnie Castevet is delightful.
We won't make you eat the mouse. Just take a listen!
Content warning: Brief mentions of sexual assault and statutory rape
Learn more about Ryan here. And see her TED talk here.
Mentioned in this episode:
Rebecca Solnit on Women’s Work and the Myth of the Art Monster
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
I just think it's an incredibly amazing movie that talks about as like. Horribly unfeminist as it is, it's also weirdly feminist because it's like the horror is the gaslighting. Really, you know, and you see it so clearly, and I find so many things about this movie delightful and I know that it is directed by a monster.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know what's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit overthink, with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Speaker 3:I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'm very happy to welcome Ryan Cunningham to share her deep thoughts about the film Rosemary's Baby with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and me and you let's dive in. So I'm really excited to have Ryan Cunningham here on the show today. She is a queer award-winning writer-director and Emmy and Peabody award-winning producer who uses comedy to tackle the stuff we're usually too polite or too scared to talk about. Her credits span film Lone Wolves, tv, including Broad City and Expecting Amy, and theater, including Sugar Daddy and Wit's End, with a focus on stories that center women, lgbtq plus voices and neurodivergent perspectives. A RISD alum and trustee, she co-owns the NYC Post House Running man and lives in Brooklyn with her gloriously opinionated daughter. She recently gave a TED Talk on neurodivergent comedy and believes the punchline is often where the healing begins. So, ryan, welcome. I'm very, very excited to have you.
Speaker 1:Thank you, I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 3:So, since we're going to be talking about Rosemary's Baby, I wanted to start by asking Tracy what she knows, remembers, what relationship she has with this film.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks, em, and welcome Ryan. I'm excited to have you. I don't think I've seen this film like, at least not all the way through. So the furniture that's in my head about Rosemary's Baby is the Antichrist, who is carried, born by a human woman, and evil shenanigans. That's about it. That's about the furniture of the brain that I've got for Rosemary's Baby.
Speaker 1:So, em, what about you? Evil shenanigans, evil shenanigans.
Speaker 3:So I saw Rosemary's Baby for the first time in the summer of 2009. I remember because it was when I was still teaching, but it was summer. I liked it so much that when my husband came home I made him watch it. So I watched it twice in one day, and he does not do horror. So he's like why are you making me watch this? It's not like really horror though.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that was especially significant because my first child was born in the summer of 2010. So because the film is really about Rosemary's pregnancy, it was very much in my head during my pregnancy with my first child, so part of what really got me was the gaslighting Not that the term for that was necessarily in the zeitgeist either in 2009 or in the 70s when the film was made of.
Speaker 1:Rosemary 60s.
Speaker 3:Thank you was made of Rosemary 60s, thank you, 60s, yeah, of Rosemary. But that was what was going on with Guy, her husband's lying to her about what was happening because her obstetrician was in on it, and all of that. And there was an aspect of that that resonated with my pregnancy because, for instance, there was a point in my pregnancy where I got a urinary tract infection that the symptoms were masked by the pregnancy until all of a sudden it was like I was doubled over in pain. And that was like a Tuesday and I had an appointment with my doctor on Thursday and so I called and was like, can I please go get Eurostat? And they're like, yeah, we can't advise that. We can't advise that. And I'm thinking like, oh, my goodness, it's going to give the baby flippers. So I go in on Thursday and the doctor prescribes basically the prescription form of Eurostat and she's like, take this, it'll turn your pee orange. I'm like that's exactly what I was going to get. Over the count. You mean, I've been in pain for two days for no reason.
Speaker 3:So that reminded me of the crap that they gave to Rosemary about lying to her about the pain that she was in. Friends are saying like this isn't normal, this isn't right, really really stuck with me and also seemed odd to me in a way, because it was written by Ira Levin, so written by a man and then directed by Roman Polanski, who's not only a man but a monster. Anyway, that's like the major thing that's in my head about this film. So, ryan, tell me, why is this film important to you? Why are we talking about it today?
Speaker 1:This is one of my favorite movies of all time and it makes me feel like a really bad feminist to say that, but it's perfect. I am really drawn to the direction and the level of detail in this movie and also I think this movie is incredibly funny and I think that the gaslighting is so like gobsmackingly awful that it's almost entertaining to watch. It's terrible, but I watched this for the first time when I was in college and I was sick, and as soon as Ruth Gordon shows up, as soon as Minnie Kastavitz shows up, she delights me. I think it's one of the best supporting performances that has ever existed. She's like one of my favorite actresses of all time.
Speaker 1:I just was like why has no one ever talked about how funny this movie is? And I think in the early aughts, when I first moved to New York, they were doing a screening of it at the Film Forum and I was so excited to get to see it in the theater and it was fascinating watching it, because I didn't realize quite how campy it was and it didn't totally play that way when I was watching it at home, but when you see it on the big screen and you have a whole audience, the audience was like roaring laughing, and I will never forget. Isaac Mizrahi was sitting directly in front of me and just laughing his ass off and I can never think about this movie without thinking about him laughing. He particularly Laura Louise Laura Louise, I think, is one of his favorites. Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so since Tracy, if she's seen it, it's only bits and pieces and it's been 16 years since I saw it. Back to back, remind us of the plot, give us kind of a synopsis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've seen it many times. I saw it in a theater last year I actually took my daughter to see it, who's 13, because I was like you should see my favorite movie in a theater. And then, kind of halfway through, I was sitting there and I was like, should I have done this? I don't know. After the whole like devil rapes her scene, I just looked over at her and I was like, are you okay? And she was like what just happened?
Speaker 3:I want to show my kids the Big Lebowski eventually, but that's one where I'm like, maybe when you're late high school, for similar reasons.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know, I just watched the Big Sleep and I didn't realize what a parallel that is to the Big.
Speaker 1:Lebowski. Okay, so do you want me to walk you through the movie? So there is it kind of starts with this like shots of New York City and Central Park and there's this like neon pink very girly script in the credits pink very girly script in the credits and it kind of eventually settles in on the Dakota building, which is a very legendary building in New York, but in the movie it's playing the Bramford and there is this young couple with a real estate agent, rosemary, and Guy. Guy is an actor which we hear repeatedly throughout the movie. He's been in Hamlet and the Sandpiper and Luther and Nobody Loves an Albatross and some commercials. It's like this thing that Rosemary sort of like repeatedly refrains like a very excited cheerleader and somehow, him being an actor and her not working, they can afford an apartment in the Dakota, but it's, you know, the 1960s, so slightly more believable.
Speaker 1:The previous tenant had passed the apartment that they're going to look at. She had been in a coma in a hospital. She didn't die in the apartment, so all of her stuff is still in the apartment and they go in and she's an herb gardener and there's all these gardening things everywhere and Rosemary sees a handwritten note on her desk that says I can no longer associate myself. But the apartment is incredible and Rosemary is just like effusively in love with it and the real estate agent said is like looking around, he's like that's odd and there was a cabinet that had been moved in the hallway and he's like I'm pretty sure there's a closet behind them and Guy helps him move it and jokes like, oh, I see now why she was in a coma. And you know, the real estate agent's like, but she was 89 years old, like she couldn't have moved it herself. And Rosemary thinks it's weird that she covered up the closet where, like, her vacuum and her towels were. And that night they have dinner with Hutch, their current landlord, who's an older friend, and they mentioned the building, the Bramford, and he's like, oh, that was the home to the Trench Sisters and Adrian Marcado and he was a witch who claimed to have conjured the devil and he was attacked outside and there had been a baby found in 1959 and wrapped in newspaper in the basement and they're just like, wow, that's weird, but we still love the apartment so we'll be taking it. They spend their first night in the apartment. They can hear this loud older neighbor through the walls and there's lots of shadows and Rosemary goes and inspects the closet that's been covered and notes that there's shelves that have been removed and they have like a floor picnic on the first night. There's a lot of people like doing things sitting on the floor.
Speaker 1:In this movie it's like a repeated motif. And you know they're eating dinner and she suggests that they make love and then they both very awkwardly strip down in just like a single shot where the two of them are just like taking off their clothes in the most unsexy way possible and then they sort of get together and it becomes a little bit more sexy. They make love in this extremely creepy apartment and Guy jokes that you know he thinks he hears the Trent sisters. And there's, you know then, a montage.
Speaker 1:Rosemary's fixing up the apartment. She rushes to see a commercial on the TV for Yamaha that Guy is doing and she's doing laundry in the basement. She sees this other woman doing laundry and they get into chatting. She says that she's staying with the cast of Vets on the seventh floor. Terry mentions that their apartment is next door and the woman that used to live in their apartment used to grow herbs for Minnie, but now Minnie grows her own. They hear a loud crash and Terry says she's just really creeped out by the basement and maybe they should coordinate and go down together in the future. And she shows off this good luck charm that Mrs Castavette's mini gave her and Rosemary checks it out and she notes that it has this like very funky smell. Terry says it has herbs and the necklace.
Speaker 1:I was watching this with my girlfriend last night and she's very, you know, sort of witchy and she was like that's a witch's ball, like at the moment that she held up the necklace. It's also called a charm ball. And Terry tells her that the cast of Vets have been amazing to her. They picked her up off the street she was a drug addict and they took her in and at first she thought that they wanted her for some weird sex thing but they turned out to be real grandparents. And Rosemary says oh, it's nice to know that there's people like that.
Speaker 1:And later she and Guy are in their bedroom and they hear Minnie through the walls and they start making love and all of a sudden they hear this like really creepy chanting coming through the walls of a lot of people. And later they're coming home from being out and they notice this crowd and police outside the building in a very creepy scene because it takes place almost in the exact same spot where John Lennon was murdered, in the same building, like 10 years later. They're sort of all walking up and Terry is dead on the sidewalk, having jumped out of the seventh floor window and there's blood everywhere. Her necklace is still on sidewalk, having jumped out of the seventh floor window and there's blood everywhere. Her necklace is still on but it's like kind of pulled away from her head. And the cast of vets come walking up in this very eccentric getup and they're told that Terry has jumped and Minnie's like that's not possible. And Roman says she was prone to depression. Minnie says I just don't believe it. And Rosemary introduces herself and that's sort of it. They move on with their lives and later on Rosemary and Guy are sleeping.
Speaker 1:Rosemary has a dream. She sees the nuns that haunted her childhood in Catholic school and she hears Minnie's voice coming out of the nuns that haunted her childhood in Catholic school. And she hears Minnie's voice coming out of the nuns' voices. There's a lot of repressed Catholic guilt in this. The next day the doorbell rings and in such an iconic shot we see Minnie through the peephole and Minnie comes in and is like oh wow, you put the table there and starts snooping around and Rosemary tells her that they're planning on having children but she's not pregnant yet. Minnie's going through the furniture and asking how much things cost and Rosemary tells her that Guy's an actor and Minnie insists that they get together for dinner. She says I won't take no for an answer and it's like and then? And then she, you know, walks out the door and like picks up Rosemary's mail and hands it and like starts like looking through it before handing it to her. She's just one of those neighbors.
Speaker 1:And Guy comes home later. Rosemary hugs him and he pats her ass and he's upset. He says that Donald Baumgarten got the part that he had wanted in the play that would have gotten him noticed. And Rosemary tells him that the cast of Vets have invited them for dinner. Guy's really reticent to go, says you know, oh, this old couple like, if we do this, we'll never get rid of them. They're right across the wall. But he reluctantly agrees.
Speaker 1:So they go into Minnie and Roman Kastavet's apartment, which is very old and baroque. She keeps being like oh, you're an actor, they're very complimentary of his acting and she says oh guy, I'll tell you, I'll tell everyone, I knew you when. And gives them a drink that they say is from Australia. And Roman says you know, you name a place and I've been there. Go ahead, name a place and dinner goes well.
Speaker 1:There's a reference to the fact that the Pope is going to be visiting that Rosemary says and Roman disses the Pope and she sort of reveals that she was Catholic and it's just like this very awkward moment. And then Roman starts like really sucking up to Guy about his acting, says that he saw him in Luther and there was this one thing that he moves and asks if he's up for any parts and they sort of start this conversation and Rosemary and Minnie go do dishes together in the kitchen while Guy and Roman talk in the living room. There's this amazing shot where Rosemary looks out from the kitchen and we just see a doorway with no people but you just see like cigarette smoke drifting from the sides of the doorway and they leave cigarette smoke drifting from the sides of the doorway and they leave there's. There's so much about doorways in this and hallways and framing in this movie that I actually like referenced a lot in my movie lone wolves, but we'll go back to that later and guy seems to have really liked them. They leave, they're laughing about it and they kind of laugh about how bad the dinner was and that all the dinner plates didn't match. But Guy says he's going to go back over the next night that Roman's stories are really interesting and Rosemary's like you know why did they take all their pictures down? Like they had hooks on the walls and clean spaces, but there were no pictures on the wall.
Speaker 1:And the next day she's relaxing reading a book and Minnie rings the bell and just kind of barges in and introduces her friend, laura Louise, who's this like very eccentric older woman with these very, very thick glasses, and Rosemary says she's not feeling well, she has her period, and the both women just start sitting there and like immediately like knitting or embroidering or crocheting. Minnie mentions that she has a present for Rosemary and Rosemary opens it and it's the same necklace that Terry wore. The diamond studded sphere locket has this like Celtic knot weave pattern. It's kind of like a circular locket and she smells it and Laura Louise is like oh, you'll get used to the smell, you know it's tannis root. And Minnie insists that she puts it on.
Speaker 1:Guy comes home, rosemary shows her present but then immediately takes it off and Guy's like what, you're not going to wear it? Well, if you took it, you ought to wear it. And she just puts it away in a drawer. The phone rings, guy answers and suddenly Donald Baumgarten has gone blind and now Guy has gotten the lead part in the play. That's going to make a difference and he's like well, it's a hell of a way to get it. And Guy says he wants to go tell Roman and Minnie and runs off.
Speaker 1:And Rosemary later is visiting Hutch and she tells him the news about Guy's part but she's very sad and upset because Guy's very preoccupied. He hasn't been paying attention to her. And Hutch mentions that he heard there was another suicide. Rosemary's like oh, didn't I tell you? And Rosemary comes home and Guy has gotten her like a dozen roses and he says he's been a creep and he apologized. He's been really worried that Donald Baumgarten is going to regain his sight. And he says let's have a baby. The calendar and I figured out when we have to do it and it's tonight. And she's like overjoyed and it's very weird that he knows that, especially in like 1965. They make a fire in the fireplace and they have dinner and it's supposed to be like this, like sexy night at home because they're going to make a baby and the cast of that's ring the doorbell and guy goes and answers it and she's like no, don't let them in, don't let them in. He comes back in.
Speaker 1:Many had just wanted to drop off this chocolate mousse or her famous chocolate mouse that that's what she calls it. And she tries it and says, oh, it has this like chalky undertaste. And Guy's like downing his and he's like what are you talking about? Just eat it, just eat it, it's fine. And he goes up to change the record and she kind of scoops it all into a napkin after taking like a couple bites and shows him that it's empty.
Speaker 1:And then later, while she's cleaning the kitchen, she gets really faint and dizzy. Guy catches her and carries her into bed, says oh, you've had too much booze and you didn't eat enough. And he puts her to bed and we hear this clock ticking and she says you know, oh, we have to make a baby, but we just need a nap, I just need a nap. And she's dreaming and suddenly she's on this like fancy yacht and then she's like floating in the water on a mattress and they're back on the yacht and Hutch becomes the captain of the boat. She wakes up and Guy is taking her clothes off and telling her to go to sleep. And now in the dream she's naked on the boat and then she's in a bikini and Hutch is suddenly down in the port and they're saying he's not coming with us because it's Catholics only. And then suddenly she's being lifted up to the Sistine Chapel ceiling and it's very unnerving and there's a lot of these like shots, sort of scanning around the Sistine Chapel ceiling and she's walking.
Speaker 3:That whole dream sequence is so unnerving it's easy to lose track.
Speaker 1:Unnerving. It's so unnerving, okay. So then, like Roman, they're back on the boat and Roman is warning that there's going to be a typhoon and she's walking around below the boat naked and she sees this room with a fire and a mattress and she lays down. And then, all of a sudden, all of the older people are there, including Roman and Minnie, and they're all naked and they're chanting and Roman is painting these like red lines on her chest and Guy is there and said no, she's awake. And Minnie says no, as long as she ate the mouse, she's dead to the world. As long as she ate the mouse, she's dead to the world.
Speaker 1:Terry is coming down the stairs in a white dress all of a sudden and says you better have your legs tied down in case of convulsions. And then there's like men tying down her legs, like she's in a mental hospital, and then she dreams that she's having sex first with Guy, and then there's like a devil hand and she looks in his red eyes and she says this is no dream, this is really happening. And they cover her face. And then the Pope comes and says he heard she was mitten by a mouse and Rosemary apologizes for not being able to come see him and he gives her his ring to kiss and it's the witch's ball from her necklace. So that's like this whole crazy sequence. And that was the point when my daughter turned to me in the theater and was like what just happened?
Speaker 3:I think my husband did the same thing to me.
Speaker 2:I have definitely not seen this movie. I would remember that it's such a good movie.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that sequence and the like, the this is no dream, this is really happening. And as long as she ate the mouse like just yeah, live, rent free in my head, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so vivid and real. Oh, and also the eyes of the devil are supposedly oh, I should look up his name, I should awake and says you know, it's after nine. You got to get up and she has a terrible headache, she can't remember anything. And he says oh well, you know you passed out. You can never have cocktails and wine together anymore. And she's naked and she has all these like scratches all over her and she's looking and she's like's like what? And before she can say anything, he's like oh, I know, I know, don't say any, I I've already filed them down. And he says you know, I didn't want to miss baby night and his nails were ragged and and it was kind of fun in a little necrophiliac kind of way. So basically he's telling her like oh well, I raped you last night because I didn't want to miss baby night, you know. And then they're like oh, it's fine.
Speaker 1:And uh, guy's a monster just, she's just, oh, absolutely, he's like the king before you find out how much of a monster he is he's an actor but he's like the king of gaslighting monster.
Speaker 1:Rosemary is just like incredibly confused. She says that she dreamt she was being raped by someone inhuman. And he's like thanks a lot, you know. She's just really bothered and that, like this all happened and he was like well, I was loaded myself, you know, and just really tries to like totally brush it off. And you know, she returns the cups for the chocolate mouse to Minnie. Minnie, hilariously, is like oh, where are you going? You go get me groceries. She's like get me six eggs and a Sanka, which has nothing to do with anything. But I just found it really funny.
Speaker 1:Guy is back in the apartment, guy's practicing walking on crutches for the role and she's like you know, you haven't been looking at me, like what's going on? You know you've been avoiding me and she's really bothered and he says he's just, oh, you know, just preoccupied with the part, don't worry about it. And at breakfast, a couple of days later, she keeps looking at the calendar and he is like noticing and he says you were supposed to get your period two days ago. You're two days late, which is just so creepy that he knows that. And it's like not actually marked on the calendar and he bets her a quarter that she's pregnant marked on the calendar. And he bets her a quarter that she's pregnant and she goes to see Dr Hill, who's played by a very young Charles Grodin and with a very, really sleazy mustache.
Speaker 3:It's like almost non-existent, but it's there, Even for the 60s it's sleazy.
Speaker 1:Even for the 60s. It was like what is that? Yeah, so she goes to see Dr Hill, who was like a recommendation from a friend, her friend Elise, to get a blood test. And she gets a call when she's home and she's told that she's pregnant. She's just so happy and it's clear that like her whole life has been sort of building up to this moment, like this is like the pinnacle of what she thought life was going to be. And you know, he says, you know, come see me next month and let's get prenatal vitamins. You know, the baby's June 28th. We just need another blood test for sugar, for blood sugar, it's no big deal. And he comes, guy, comes home and she sort of greets him at the door with her hand out with a quarter in it, and he's elated and says let's make this a new beginning. She says let's make this a new beginning with openness, that he hasn't been open and his first reaction is to say, oh, I want to go tell the cast of us. And she's like, okay, and they come running in and he leaves, they all come running back in and they're so excited and they're just a lot and they sort of take over. They insist that she goes to Abe Saperstein, who's one of the finest OBs in the country. Guy mentions he's even heard of him and Minnie goes into their bedroom to use the phone to call Abe to make an appointment for her the next morning. And this is a moment that I really love because she's framed.
Speaker 1:There's this documentary called Visions of Light about cinematography. It came out in like the late 90s. It's really fantastic and the cinematographer for this movie is interviewed in it and I'm so sorry I need to look up his name, but he talks about how, when he was framing that shot specifically of when she goes in the bedroom, that he set up the shot so that she was like perfectly framed within the doorframe and Roman Plansky was like oh, no, no, no, no, no, no and like moved the shot so that she was partially covered. We only see like about like half of her head and like her shoulder and her back and not the rest. And the dp was like what are you talking about? And roman flansky was like, just trust me. And then the dp talks about later, when he went to the premiere and he saw the film in a theater with an audience, that at that moment, when she goes in the bedroom to make the phone call, that every single person in the theater craned their head to look around the doorframe to see and listen in and the cinematographer was just like mind blown at how genius that was. But there's so much of that in this movie. There's so much of like door frames and like you see things but you don't. You see like partial images and you're kind of like looking around and searching. You know you have that feeling from the film language just of unease and like trying to figure it out as you're just watching it anyway.
Speaker 1:So she has an appointment the following morning, uh, with abe saperstein, and minnie can't wait to tell laura, louise, rosemary's like, oh, please do not do that. And at night rosemary's lying in bed. She's thinking of baby names. She constantly is changing what her baby names are. Throughout she's always referring to like little Andy or Jenny or little Susan or little, you know, little Timmy. She hears Minnie laughing through the door, through the wall, and then she hears an ambulance and it freaks her out and she gets up and she decides to put on the good luck charm necklace that Minnie gave her. And the next day she goes to see Dr Saperstein, who's played by Ralph Bellamy, who you just talked about in your Pretty Woman episode.
Speaker 3:And I was just.
Speaker 1:I just wrote an article about trading places, so yeah, yeah, but Ralph Bellamy was also in His Girl Friday. He's the fiancé. That's like annoying, anyway. So Dr Saperstein is taking her on as a patient tells her please don't read books, don't listen to your friends. No two pregnancies are alike. He tells her he doesn't want her taking prenatal vitamins. He wants her taking Minnie has an herbarium and he's going to prescribe these herbal drinks that'll be really fresh, with fresher than vitamins, that he wants Rosemary to drink every day. The next day Rosemary brings her the drink. She sort of I'm sorry. Minnie brings Rosemary the drink. She sort of mentions that it has like a raw egg and tannis root in it.
Speaker 1:Next day Rosemary comes home and reveals that she's gone to Vidal Sassoon and she has this really chic haircut that's like short and blonde and it's one of my favorite haircuts of all time. But absolutely everyone hates it, including her husband. When she first walked in he's like what the hell did you do? And then suddenly she says oh my God, I have this pain. And she goes back to Dr Saperstein. She tells him she was afraid it was an ectopic pregnancy and he berates her for reading books, says she's fine, she's fine, it'll move on Like it'll be fine. And later Rosemary and Guy are playing Scrabble on the floor at home. The introduction of the Scrabble game is very important and she's in a lot of pain and she just absolutely breaks down, says she knows something is wrong. She's looking really sickly. She's like I feel awful and he's like you look great. It's the haircut that looks awful. He says want to know the truth, that's the worst mistake you ever made. And she's like craving really rare meat, sometimes raw meat.
Speaker 1:Hutch visits and he's really freaked out by her appearance. She's gotten really skinny, she's got black rings under her eyes and she tells Hutch that she's pregnant and he asks her who her OB is and she says Dr Saperstein. And he's like oh, he delivered two of my daughter's babies. So again it's like reassurance, everything's fine from people that she knows. But he's really concerned that she's lost too much weight. But he says well, dr Saperstein knows what he's talking about.
Speaker 1:And the doorbell rings and Roman is there and he seems very, very interested in who is inside the apartment and Rosemary invites him in. She notices as he walks past him that his earlobes are pierced, which is not so weird now, but I think you know in 1965 was very weird. And they have a discussion about the fresh herb drinks, like in front of Hutch, and Rosemary mentions the tannis root and Hutch is very confused and you could tell Roman is like uncomfortable that Hutch is hearing about all this. And Rosemary shows Hutch her necklace and he is really repulsed by the smell, says it doesn't smell like a root but more like a fungus. Hutch is, oh, I have to look it up. And Roman excuses himself. And later they're sitting in the kitchen, hutch and Rosemary, and Rosemary mentions that Roman has pierced ears and Hutch says and piercing eyes. And suddenly Guy comes like storming into the apartment, still in his stage makeup, and Hutch says he's leaving. Guy gets his coat and Hutch is like oh, I seem to have lost a glove and he leaves. And Rosemary's real upset, says that Hutch told her she looked terrible and Guy just sort of very much dismisses it. And later she's napping and the phone rings. It's Hutch. Guy brings her the phone and Hutch asks her to meet him the next day at the Time Life building. He hasn't found his glove and as soon as she's off the phone Guy's like what was that about? What are you doing? What's the plan? And wants to know where they're meeting and when. And then suddenly he's like you know what? I'm craving ice cream. And he runs out and she's just so sick in bed.
Speaker 1:The next morning Rosemary stops and sees Minnie and says she's going out and she won't have her drink that day and then she's waiting on the street for Hutch, who's late. She feels awful. She sits down at one point and says pain be gone, I will have no more of thee. And then she kind of laughs at herself and she calls Hutch's apartment from a phone booth and she's told that he's taken ill and that he's in a deep coma in the hospital. And she is really distraught and she catches her appearance in the window reflection. She's really horrified and Minnie just suddenly appears and she insists on taking Rosemary home and Rosemary is just so, so, so ill and they have a new year's party for 1966 at the castettes and she meets this like this group of sort of older eccentric weirdos basically, and at new year's roman toasts and like to 1966, year one, and rosemary is still in pain, she's doubled over, she's craving raw meat like she truly is having the worst pregnancy ever and I really felt for her and related to that part because I really had a terrible pregnancy and she decides that she's going to have a party for their young friends.
Speaker 1:She says it's a very special party. You have to be under 60 to get in. And Guy is like is this a good idea? Have you checked with Dr Saperstein? Like why would she need to check with her OB to have a party?
Speaker 1:And Minnie comes in the day of the party and she sees to give her the drink and she sees the sort of spread of food and Minnie's like oh, I want to help. And you know Rosemary kind of pushes her off and Rosemary refuses to drink Minnie's drink. She ends up dumping it. And at the party everyone is like congratulations, but like you look like a piece of chalk, like make sure he feeds you something. What is happening? And Guy is just very stressed out the whole party and is very much keeping his eye on Rosemary and what she's doing. And every time she talks to a female friend and he will locking Guy out of the kitchen and sort of circling her and being like what's happened? They want her to go to another doctor. You know say pain is a warning that something isn't right. And she's like I won't have an abortion and they're like honey. We're not talking about having an abortion, like just chill out Again, just Catholic guilt coming like crazy yeah.
Speaker 3:That scene was something that really stuck with me the like locking themselves in the kitchen and like this, like group of women being like what is going on?
Speaker 1:What's?
Speaker 3:going on Like please rely on, like our you know combined experience. There was a point, like we're just saying get a second opinion, that's all yeah.
Speaker 1:So after the party she stands up to Guy and she says that she's going to go see Dr Hill and that she's not drinking Minnie's drink. She hasn't drunk it in three days and Guy gets really angry, basically says like don't listen to these bitches. And that he doesn't want her to go to Dr Saperstein because or he doesn't want her to go to Dr Hill because it's not fair to Dr Saperstein, and she's like what the fuck? And then all of a sudden she freezes because the pain has stopped and he is freaking out. He starts interrogating her about what was in the drink she's been making for herself. But she's just so happy she says I feel it kicking, it's alive, it's moving. And then everything kind of goes great through the second half of the pregnancy. We see this montage. She's like taking drinks for Minnie, she's setting up the nursery, she's packing the bag for the hospital and fast forward. And now she has kind of three weeks left until she's due and she gets a phone call that Hutch is dead and she takes a cab to his funeral and ends up talking to his daughters and his friend Grace, and she gives Rosemary a book. It says that he regained consciousness and thought it was the next morning when he was going to meet Rosemary and he made the doctor promise to give Rosemary the book that was on his desk. Rosemary, and he made the doctor promise to give Rosemary the book that was on his desk. And then, as she's like driving away, grace rolls down the window from the car and yells out oh, and I'm supposed to tell you, apparently the name is an anagram. And she goes home. She puts on these like gigantic, fluffy blue slippers that just felt so ridiculous. Minnie rings the bell. She gives Rosemary the drink, sees the book, she's very inquisitive of it. She's really inspecting the name on the package because it's addressed, but she ends up leaving.
Speaker 1:Rosemary opens the book. It's called All of them Witches. Hutch has underlined some things. He says in rituals they use this fungus called devil's pepper, which is spongy, with a strong odor, worn on charms, and Adrian Marcato. There's this black and white painting of him that really resembles Roman slightly, but with like a lot more hair and younger. And Marcato had been attacked by a mob outside of the Bramford and she's like this is ridiculous, there are no witches, like not really. And she sort of dismisses it. But then she looks at the cover and thinks the name is an anagram and she gets out her Scrabble set game. She puts out all of them witches and mixes the letter up, comes up with a, comes with the fall elf, shot lame witch, how is hell fact me? And she's like this is so stupid, like whatever, this is dumb. And she opens the book again and she sees that he's underlined a caption that Adrian Marcato had a son named Stephen. And she puts Stephen Marcato in Scrabble letters and rearranges them into Roman castabette and Guy comes home and she is freaked the fuck out and she tells Guy all about everything, shows him the book and Guy just dismisses it and says well, no wonder he changed his name.
Speaker 1:He had a crazy dad, like that Can you imagine. And Rosemary is like they have covenants, they use the blood of babies in their rituals. It's the most powerful. And he takes the book away, puts it up on a high shelf. He actually puts it above this like pillar of the two Kinsey books, the sexual behavior in the human female and in the human male, next to yes, I can the story of Sammy Davis jr. But like the books are taller and they look like a pillar and it's like they're using kind of psychological and sexual manipulation and they're like supporting this like main witchcraft book.
Speaker 1:You know, she goes to Dr Saperstein. She tells him about steven marcato and he's like I totally understand, you don't have to take anything more from minnie. And he says you know, maybe this will be good because roman's actually dying. He only has a couple months left and he's been really wanting to travel but they didn't want to leave her because she's about to have the baby. So Saperstein will tell him that they can leave and then she'll feel better and it'll all be fine. And they sort of see them off and Rosemary is trying to find the book. Guy says he put it in the garbage. He didn't want her to worry herself and she's really upset and out of it.
Speaker 1:She kind of wanders into traffic and she's crossing the and out of it. She kind of wanders into traffic and she's like crossing the street. She dumps her necklace in the sewer grate. She goes to a used bookstore. She gets another copy of the book as well as a book on witchcraft. She reads about how a coven could blind, deafen, paralyze or ultimately kill the chosen victim. In some cults it's believed that a personal item of the victim was necessary and the spell cannot be cast without a possession of the victim. And she goes home and she calls Donald Baumgarten who is voiced uncredited, by Tony Curtis and I guess the phone call that they're having. He was actually on the phone call and she didn't know it was going to be Tony Curtis. She just thought, oh, I'm talking to Donald Baumgarten. And she mentions a time that Guy and Donald had met up and that Guy has something of Donald's and he's like, oh, you mean my tie. Donald says they traded ties but he gave it to him, so it's fine. Donald says they traded ties, but he gave it to him, so it's fine. And so she knows that they had a personal thing and she grabs her hospital suitcase and she leaves.
Speaker 1:She goes to Dr Saperstein, she's waiting, she insists that he see her. She's sweating. It's like 94 degrees out, it's middle of June. She's like looking at a cover of time magazine that says is god dead? The receptionist at the hospital, at the sorry, at the doctor's office, is like, oh, you smell better today. And she says, oh well, I was wearing tannis root on a necklace but I threw it out. And the receptionist says good, maybe the doctor will follow your example. And rosemary's like what? Oh no, she asked to be excused and she runs out.
Speaker 1:She goes to this phone booth and it's this really cool shot. That's like just one continuous shot while she's in this phone booth for several minutes and she's calling dr hill's office and then she has to like fake another call to keep someone else from coming into the phone booth to use it. And she keeps saying all of them, all of them together, all of them witches. And Dr Hill calls back. She tells him what's going on and that she wants him to deliver her baby. She's like so desperate she has to see him.
Speaker 1:This very sort of creepy man appears behind her in the phone booth with his back and it kind of looks like it could be Roman Kastavet. And she turns around and is just like totally freaked out and kind of runs out of there and asks the cab driver to wait, like while she's inside, and she goes to see Dr Hill, tells him everything, lays out all of her evidence. She's like I know this sounds crazy, but like I have the books, I have the proof. He asks to keep them. He looks really interested. She says you know, they have a coven and they want my baby. And he's like, like it certainly seems that way. And she's relieved. Until she tells him that her doctor is Dr Saperstein and he's like, oh, he's so respected. But he says do you want to go to the hospital tonight? Lie down and get some rest, I'll see what I can do. And she's just like, so relieved, says these are unspeakable monsters. And she has a dream that she's like she has the baby and she's surrounded by family. And then dr hill opens the door and saperstein and guy walk in and say that they'll take her to a mental hospital if she mentions witchcraft again. And saperstein basically holds her like a prisoner and like leads her out to the car.
Speaker 1:And the music does so much for the tone of this movie, like there'll just be a scene of like a person walking out to a car, but the music's like, you know, like it's really it does a lot. And then, coming in, she drops a bunch of things from her bag as a distraction to get away from them and she jumps into the elevator, runs out, gets inside the apartment just as Guy is coming out of the next elevator, and she's like go to hell, you promised them to baby. And she calls a friend from the bedroom. While she's on the call we see a bunch of people over her shoulder walking into, like tiptoeing into the apartment and then suddenly Guy and like all of the coven come into the bedroom and it's this really terrifying scene. Dr Saperstein has a syringe and they hold her down and she's just like completely freaking out. It's really horrifying.
Speaker 1:And they inject her. And then Dr Saperstein feels her and says she's in labor and she's just like completely freaking out. It's really horrifying. And they inject her. And then Dr Saperstein feels her and says she's in labor and she's like somebody help me, you know. And then she's out and she wakes up and Guy tells her that she had the baby. It's a boy.
Speaker 1:And she wakes up again. She's just very out of it. Laura Louise is reading next to her and Rosemary's like where's my baby? And then she goes and runs and gets Dr Abe Saperstein and he comes in with Guy and they tell her that there were complications but it won't prevent her from having other children. But the baby died. It was in the wrong position and if they had been at a hospital they could have done something about it, but she wouldn't listen. So basically like it's your fault and says you know, they can start again in a few months. And she's like you're lying, you took the baby, you're witches. And they sedate her again. And Guy comes back in and says you know. When she wakes up and says, oh, you know, you have the pre-partum crazies. And he's laughing that she thought he and Dr Saperstein were in the coven too. And he says you know, everything's going to be amazing from now on. And she asks to see his left shoulder to see if there's a mark. And he takes his shirt off, makes like a big joke out of it, like he's like stripping for her. There's nothing there.
Speaker 1:She's watching TV later and she hears a baby's crying and the lady from the coven who's there is like what are you talking about? Like take your pill. And Rosemary puts the bill in the bed stand and Rosemary's pumping. Laura Louise takes the milk. Rosemary's like well, what do you do with it? Laura Louise is like oh, we just throw it away. And Guy comes in and says there's new tenants above them and they have a baby. And she says oh, I heard it crying. And she goes to throw her medicine spoon in the milk glass and Laura Louise just like freaks out. It's like don't do that and Rosemary's like why? And she's like, oh, it's just a little messy.
Speaker 1:And the camera pans over and we see Rosemary has put like a week worth of pills in the bed stand and she sneaks out, she opens the closet that had been covered and she takes out the shelves and she walks forward and she finds that the back of that closet is the back of the closet in the castabette's apartment and that she can see it through the keyhole. Someone like there's like a light passing by the peephole on her front door and realizes that it's Guy coming in and she runs in and she hides in the baby nursery and at one point she has to stop the cradle from rocking, like with her knife. She sort of like goes like this she sneaks into the cast of its apartment with the knife. She sees all of the art on the wall. There's like a Goya painting called the Witches and everything's sort of very fiery and helly.
Speaker 1:When she comes into the party, like no one seems to notice her. But then Guy does and then suddenly Laura Louise screams and there's this Asian man there. He asks her if she's the mother. She sees this baby bassinet in this black shroud with an upside down cross. She approaches it with a knife and everyone is silent and frozen watching her. And she looks in the bassinet and she sees the baby and she's like what have you done to its eyes? And Roman says he has his father's eyes. Satan is his father. He begat a child with a mortal woman. His name is Adrian and he will overthrow the mighty, wreak vengeance. Hail Satan, hail Adrian.
Speaker 1:They're all chanting this suddenly, all of these older coven members around her, and Minnie is there. She's in this crazy getup with this blue eyeshadow. She's like, in this crazy getup with this like blue eyeshadow. She's like he chose you out of all the world. He arranged things because he wanted you to be the mother of his only living son. She's like, just very matter of fact, and Guy is just in the background while she says that, looking incredibly guilty, and she's like no, it can't be. And they're like look at his feet, you know. And we see these like devil, the devil eyes, the same devil eyes that she saw while she was being raped, superimposed. For a moment. We never actually see the baby. She drops the knife and sits down and they're all like hail satan. The year is one. God is done.
Speaker 1:There's this tiny little moment where, like Minnie grabs the knife out of the floor and just like uses her finger to like fix the floor where it had got in, and for some reason I love that moment so much. But it's like moments like that, it's like these little details like that that I think are what like make this movie so incredible. And Roman is like help us out, like be a mother to your baby. Minnie and Laura Louise are too old, it's not right. And Rosemary's like oh God, you know. And she's crying. And Laura Louise is like oh, shut up with your oh gods, or we'll kill you. Milk or no milk.
Speaker 1:And this very fancy man comes in, roman's like come view the child Guy comes over and is like they promised me that you wouldn't be hurt and you haven't been. Not really, it's just the same as if she had had a baby and she lost it. And he's like we're getting so much richer. And she just like hisses at him and spits in his face and the baby starts crying and Laura Louise is rocking the cradle too vigorously. And Rosemary comes over and she's like you're rocking him too fast.
Speaker 1:And Roman says let Rosemary rock him and sit down, laura Louise. And she protests and then sort of sticks her tongue out at Rosemary as she walks away and Roman's like aren't you his mother? And she goes over to rock him and everyone sort of gathers watching and smiling. Like the Asian man at the party is like taking pictures and Rosemary is. You can just see that she's like she has that maternal instincts, like she sees the baby and she's just like sort of falling in love with the baby. And then we hear the like music you know if rosemary was singing a lullaby and we pull out from the building and the credits roll and that's rosemary's baby.
Speaker 1:Um that's a ride it's like incredibly, incredibly detailed, but I think that there's so many details in this movie that are so specific and every single thing is in there for a reason and pays off, and I just think it's an incredibly amazing movie that talks about as like horribly unfeminist as it is, it's also weirdly feminist because it's like the horror is the gaslighting, really, you know, and you see it so clearly. And I find so many things about this movie delightful and I know that it is directed by a monster and somewhat cursed and really, really untrue to witches, like does not represent witches and really kind of kicked off the satanic panic in the United States and everything Like it has a terrible legacy, yes, but I still like I watch it and I just think it's perfect.
Speaker 3:Let's talk a little bit about Roman Polanski and, like Tracy and I both know, but just very briefly, just for our listeners, roman Polanski, he was a Holocaust survivor.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's right, yes, and filmmaker in. Czechoslovakia, I think, or poland, and um came over.
Speaker 3:The reason he's a monster is he basically abducted a. She was 13, I believe I think she was 14, 14, yeah, but a child, yeah, and raped her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a year after this movie was made, he was married. Roman Plansky was married to Sharon Tate. She was eight months pregnant with their child. He was out of the country and she was murdered by the Manson family, the Manson family, yeah. And that really fucked him up.
Speaker 3:Like it does. Yeah, Does not excuse in any way?
Speaker 1:No, but I think he was in a very dark place and, you know, within a couple, I think another year or two later, he basically was like at a party at Jack Nicholson's house and had this like 14-year-old model, like drugged her and raped her, and he was convicted of statutory rape of like several women and had to flee the country I think in 1971, and has lived in Europe as a fugitive ever since since.
Speaker 3:So what I find really fascinating is, well, for one thing, like I had forgotten that Polanski was a Holocaust survivor. I assume that means he's Jewish. Ira Levin is Jewish. Who wrote Rosemary's Baby? This is a very Catholic story, very Catholic story, yeah, very Catholic story. Yeah, experienced wheelhouse of men, these two men. And then about the gaslighting that women experience. Now it's dialed up to 11 because it's a horror, but the gaslighting that women experience and the body horror that was the thing that's part of why I so appreciated this film is that I have known since I was a tiny, tiny child that I wanted to be a mother Like there was never a question in my mind, and I was delighted to be pregnant, but I hated pregnancy Like hated it.
Speaker 3:I hated pregnancy so much Hated it.
Speaker 1:And it was like it was truly the most miserable experience of my life.
Speaker 3:Yeah, terrible. When I was pregnant with my second, close to the end of it, I said to my husband I was like I cannot wait until I will never be pregnant again. And he's like, oh, wouldn't you want a third? And I was like no. And he said well, what if they're all as awesome as our first? And I said that's adorable.
Speaker 2:No, so, but the body horror of pregnancy is what this film captures so well.
Speaker 2:It makes is the ways in which, like this is only underscoring what you just said, emily, but the ways in which the way that we know that these people are evil is that they gaslight her right, that they gaslight her Right and this is so.
Speaker 2:This is not like we expect it to be. They use the blood of children in their rituals like some sort of like blood libel, like Jewish blood libel, but what it actually is is what happens to women every day, over and over and over again, in their marriages and in their doctor's offices and like everywhere. And so I think there's something really, really fascinating to me that what this movie accuses Satanists of doing, like the people that were meant to imagine are the most evil, is something that women just go through as the price of being women. And sorry, and then I'll let you talk. I got to get this out and you all pointed out the moment when the other women sort of circle her to try and keep the misinformation and the gaslighting out, and I think there's something like, deeply, I do see the feminism in that, in the actual antidote to the Satanism which is that which would tell us we're nuts and like punish us for speaking truth is other women.
Speaker 3:To underscore what you're saying about how the true evil is something that actually just happens to women. Rosemary's husband's name is Guy. Yeah, yeah, that's intentional.
Speaker 1:This film does pass the Bechtel test. No, clearly yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and Rosemary, she has like incredible agency. It's just that she is following a script that she's been given. Motherhood is the pinnacle of her, of her existence, because that's all she's been given to strive for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And every time she tries to express her own agency, you know, she goes to her own doctor, she decides to throw a party, she cuts her hair, she does the things that she wants to do Everyone around her just like shits on her and is like you made a terrible decision.
Speaker 2:There's something, too, about that.
Speaker 2:Ryan sort of really helped us to focus on the cinematography of this and the framing and like the moment where the cinematographer was surprised by Polanski's choice but the effect of like the whole audience kind of craning their neck to see around the doorframe, that also underscores the half-truths and the sort of framing that is gaslighting right, Like I think there's something really beautiful about the way one of the things that we sometimes talk about on Deep Thoughts is the way that the medium can kind of help to reinforce the message, and I think that you're pointing out those about the doorways and the framing and even the moment that you named where we're watching a conversation between two people through a doorway but all we see is the smoke Right, and I think there's there's something about the actual visuals that reinforce the subtext and the text text of the evil of this woman being manipulated the way that she is.
Speaker 2:I think that's really lovely in terms of like thinking about the power of storytelling, not just as stories but as a film per se even the the moment you pointed out where, where mini like takes the knife out of the floor and then like fixes it.
Speaker 3:Fixes it with their finger, fixes it with their finger. That it like. It also surprises me because it's it's director, because I'm sure that was not in the Ira Levin story, but that's a male director recognizing the ways in which women pay attention to the details of keeping a home nice, even in the midst of the coven, welcoming their satanic overworld.
Speaker 3:Like you know, there's no excuse for not putting on a nice spread, so like. That's telling and I think that's part of why, like, polanski is a genius, he truly is a genius. That's what's so difficult. That's similar like, because Mia Farrow plays Rosemary and she I don't know if they ever got married, but she and Woody Allen had that, that long relationship yeah, yeah, I mean, there's just so much, so much, so much, so much.
Speaker 1:She was married to Frank Sinatra at the time. He did not want her to leave and go do this movie and he served her with divorce papers during the uh, filming like on set, that's meta, yeah, and he was like. She was like 23, yeah, yeah gross.
Speaker 3:Of course, that's one of the things, that trying to tease that out, and I was thinking a little bit of Tracy and I. Both are big fans of Good Omens and so, with the recent allegations against Neil Gaiman, and I'm thinking of that because it is very clear, while Good Omens was clearly mostly inspired by the Omen, the Omen wouldn't have come about if it weren't for Rosemary's Baby and so. But there's there's so many art makers, there's so many geniuses, storytellers, creating this gorgeous, wonderful art that expands the way we think about storytelling. They show, like the body horror of drugging a woman and having her raped by a monster he then recreated several years later with an underage child yeah, I mean, I think the thing that I like to tell myself about this movie was that he made this movie before that.
Speaker 1:Well, and but like this movie happened before the Manson murders, like it happened before, you know, and maybe that's like the excuse I like to tell myself and Woody Allen, and having to sort of reckon with that over the last 25 years has been very hard and very eye-opening, and it's like what do you do with the art of monstrous men, you know?
Speaker 3:One of the things that I've been thinking about is there was an essay and I'll link to it in the show notes.
Speaker 3:I wish I could remember who talked about it, but it was a writer talking about how men are allowed to be art monsters, because even if a man is married with children, his time to create art is sacred, whereas women have to figure out how to fit the art in.
Speaker 3:And she used the term art monster, and I think that that is significant because, for one thing, we do protect that time Like oh, you are creative and talented. We need to protect that which then becomes. We need to protect you, which then becomes you can do whatever you want, and so that's how we get Woody Allen, that's how we get Roman Polanski, that's how we get Bill Cosby, that's how we get Neil Gaiman, and so I think part of it is that we have these talented people with penises and they are creating this amazing art and because we have empathy, you know, like oh, he didn't really mean it that way, we have this ability to let them get away with stuff and we don't give women the same opportunity. They are more likely to be shut down the first time they put a toe out of line. So I definitely understand feeling like a bad feminist for being influenced by Rowan Polanski, I think, in movie quotes, and so every time in my head I go.
Speaker 2:Equally creative and hilarious female comedians didn't get to have specials that were aired in the 80s yeah, yeah, we are running over time for our regular episodes, sorry, so, no, don't apologize, but I do want to like. I want to make sure if there's any point that you wanted to make, ryan, that you haven't yet made. Now is the time, and then I'm going to try and reflect back some of the things that came out through your synopsis and analysis.
Speaker 1:I think it's just that I think that this movie is incredibly well-made and I think that every single frame of it is a conscious decision, and I was inspired so much by the level of detail and also just kind of letting people do things in the weird way that they would do them. I think is something that I really took from this, and I took a lot of the movie I made takes place in two hotel rooms with an adjoining door. The majority of the film takes place in that, and so I did a lot of studying of this movie to look at how, on like one side of a doorway, like how do you make that interesting and visually interesting and fun, and so I think if you watch my film Lone Wolves, you would see a lot of the DNA of this film.
Speaker 2:Cool, thank you. Let me see if I can reflect back some of the things that I heard here. You started out, and we've come back to a little bit, that the fact that you love this film makes you feel like a bad feminist. I would push back on you on that. I think that, as someone who has never seen it right, that what I heard, actually there's a lot to kind of lift up that is feminist about this film the agency which rosemary is.
Speaker 2:Given the fact that, as I named already, the fact that the true evil is gaslighting right, it's like the lived experience of every single woman in contemporary America, certainly in contemporary 1968 America, and that's the evil that's being pointed to that Satan is responsible for.
Speaker 2:That feels like a feminist thesis in my mind, especially since, again, as I pointed out and we agreed, that the antidote to that, the potential antidote, the place where she might have escaped, was other women literally creating a circle around her to protect her from it.
Speaker 2:The fact that the Satanists are saying don't read books to a woman, the fact that we put don't bother your pretty head with facts or the opinions of other women, is something that we, that this film puts in the mouths of Satanists. That is a feminist thing to do, and so I just want to push back on you on on that. I think it feels like you're a bad feminist, because Roman Polanski is such a problematic human being, a monster, as my sister called him, and that is true, and also this film has feminist things to say. Both of those things can be true. It's also the case, as we named, kind of in passing, that, though what I just said, what we have been saying, is that the actual hypothesis is that the evil is like removing her agency. It set off this sort of satanic panic and the concerns about something different than the everyday, banal evil that every single woman in America lives with, and many men evil that every single woman in America lives with, and many men.
Speaker 3:Well, that's because we have never been able to make a movie that shows a strong woman, where we don't take the wrong lesson from it. Right, I watched Nightmare on Elm Street, which was the boogeyman for my childhood, and I never saw it, and so I never realized how amazing Nancy Thompson was, because I was too busy being scared of Freddie, because that's what everybody remembered.
Speaker 1:Yeah same.
Speaker 2:Something that we focused on, especially since Ryan is a filmmaker herself, is the ways in which the cinematography and the directorial choices and which every single frame you noted is a choice and the ways that those actually like, support, bolster, like really help to tell the story we're naming, which is not the one that the general public maybe took away, but is certainly there, and we talked about the sort of partial views and the framing and the through doorways and the through like and the ways in which the metaphor holes and people's exactly like like obscure vision and partial vision and the, the ways in which that is a metaphor for what gaslighting is and what gaslighting does, where we make someone believe that they're what they're seeing is not what they're seeing by reframing it in some way, and the ways that those things kind of help reinforce each other through the medium of film.
Speaker 2:This isn't a novel, right? This is not a painting, it is a film, and so it uses the tools of filmmaking to do that. And you pointed out that specific moment that surprised the cinematographer because by putting it a little obscured, polanski actually manipulated the entire audience to have a specific reaction that he wanted them to have. So that's something that felt really interesting and important.
Speaker 2:Now, some of the things that you named in the very beginning, when you were talking about why you care about this film, or what's interesting about this film, are the ways in which the gaslighting is like so dialed up to 11 that it actually becomes campy, becomes campy, and the ways that and now this again speaks to the medium when you saw it on the big screen with a whole audience, some of those were revealed differently than when you watch it by yourself in your living room. I think that's something that we don't talk about very often on deep thoughts, but, but it's something to sort of really be aware of as consumers of pop culture is that the actual modality of watching changes the experience. It's a different experience when I see it on the big screen with a whole theater full of people, than when I watch it by myself and like how that changes, do you?
Speaker 3:know, Tracy, I can watch really depressing movies in the theater and I cannot watch them at home for that very reason. That jibes Because it's an experience when it's in the theater, whereas I'm just inviting sadness into my house watching it at home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like it's been very interesting for me to see my film. You work on a film for like a year and a half at least before anyone sees it, before you have the opportunity to see it in the theater, and I, you know, even when you're editing, I always try to. Whenever I'm doing a watchdown, I always try to bring other people in to watch it, because just having the experience of being conscious of another person watching it as well makes me see things that I wouldn't see, you know, because you start to just like you can't see the film anymore, and it's been such an amazing experience seeing it in theaters with different audiences while we're in our festival run right now. We're talking to a distributor right now, so hopefully it'll be out soon, but I don't think we're going to get a theatrical run because it just doesn't make money in any way anymore, which is just so sad.
Speaker 3:So I've been kind of encouraging. Unless you're a Marvel film, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I've just been kind of encouraging everyone. I know like whenever it's playing anywhere, I'm like just go see it in the theater. Please, just watch it with an audience. It's a comedy.
Speaker 2:It's meant to be seen with an audience Like it. Just it enhances the experience so much and the ways in which our society, because of many, many things, including Emily used the portmanteau.
Speaker 3:That was coined by Kate Mann in her book Down Girl. Thank you Say it again Sympathy, yeah, it's sympathy for men.
Speaker 2:Sympathy, sympathy Thank you, kate Mann and the ways in which we sort of women have to carve out time and men like we carve it out for them, and also I would name that as a society. We don't mind having lots of men who are good at doing a thing, but women have to compete for sort of one spot and they get sort of thrown off. It becomes a rivalry, and we don't do that to men, and so we spent a little bit of time talking about that, which I wanted to just name again.
Speaker 3:Just one thing I wanted to mention. Why Rosemary's Baby was important to me was because of how well it introduced me to the idea of pregnancy as body horror, right, right, and was a gateway for you to feminist horror.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, Even though it was written and directed by two men who are Jewish or Jewish descent, and it's a very Catholic themes, like some interesting things. And, oh, I also want to say again, not representative of Wicca or witchcraft.
Speaker 1:No, not in any way.
Speaker 2:In any way, like, not at all. Like probably should use a different word. Yeah, yeah. So, ryan Cunningham, thank you so much for coming on. Ryan is a filmmaker and producer, and the name of your film. Again, it's called Lone Wolves, lone Wolves, lone Wolves, which we will make sure that we link to your TED Talk and to the movie, so listeners who want to learn more about you or Lone Wolves can find it in our show notes. Thank you so much for coming on to the show.
Speaker 1:It was wonderful to have you. Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun and I love, I love this podcast. I've been listening to it, I really enjoy it and as I said, you know you very much. Speak to the things that were very important to me as a child. Oh, that's so good to hear. If you ever talk about Bram Stoker's Dracula, I really want to be part of it.
Speaker 2:You're on, you're on, okay, but next time, next time, next time. I believe you're bringing me some deep thoughts.
Speaker 3:I actually we have another guest. We don't have guests that often. We have back to back. But now we have two in a row. Yeah, my childhood friend, adam Gwan, who is now an off-Broadway composer of musical theater, will be bringing us his deep thoughts. I'm not sure what's on yet, but something that influenced him as a baby composer. Whatever it is, it's going to be great. Yeah, he was the one who I embarrassed about Silence of the Lambs way back in the day.
Speaker 2:All right, thanks, bye-bye. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?