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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Firefly and Serenity: Deep Thoughts About Storytelling, Strawberries, and Sci Fi Cowboys
May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.
When Tracie first encountered the fan-favorite Western-in-space television show Firefly 20 years ago, she was delighted by Joss Whedon's subversion of tropes, his mastery of the written word, and his commitment to excellent storytelling. At the time, Whedon was heralded as a modern feminist and Firefly (and its follow up film Serenity) were presented as proof of his feminism bona fides. This franchise gave us kick-ass women like Zoe, Inara, Kaylee, and River and a future society where sex work is revered.
But in hindsight, Whedon's storytelling shows a few cracks--from the weird absence of any Asian characters (despite everyone speaking Mandarin) to the sometimes toxic romance tropes. There are still plenty of delights in store for the modern viewer, including cultural commentary on how humans will continue to be awful to each other in space, as well as the beloved crew of misfits and outlaws who navigate the horrors with aplomb and cunning hats.
Everything's shiny, Captain! Just throw on those headphones and take a listen.
CW: Mentions of sexual violence
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
Whedon, I think, was a writer at heart. I've read a little bit where other directors might allow their actors to kind of feel into the character and ad-lib a bit. Whedon wanted the dialogue delivered precisely as he wrote it, because he was a writer at heart, and that leads to some interesting things, I think, in the way that it maps out in this show. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the Joss Whedon property, Firefly and Serenity with my sister, Emily Guy-Burken, and with you. Let's dive in. Okay, Em, I know you've seen these because we've talked about it, but tell me what is in your head about Firefly and Serenity.
Speaker 2:So I know that this is one of those shows that was like the victim of corporate meddling. So I know that I think it was airing on Fox and they decided that it was confusing and so they aired it out of order, like the second episode first and then the first episode, and so it did not get traction, except among a very vocal fan base who loved it because it's very, very well done. Vocal fan base who loved it because it's very, very well done. And so I know Joss Whedon made Serenity to like finish the story so that his fans could have like closure, the things that I remember. There's a cunning hat, the kind of tough guy he has, a hat that someone knits for him. That's cunning, oh, oh okay yeah, janeane's hat, jane, jane's hat.
Speaker 2:I remember inara and the kind of like will they, won't they with um nathan fillion's character, who's malcolm? Yeah, mal mal and there's.
Speaker 2:there's a point where everyone's watching them with popcorn. I guess they're meeting for the first time in a while and Inara was a companion. Companions were considered like legitimate business people and yet there was still some baked in like ickiness about sex work. So like it was like yes but no. And oh, shepard Book. I remember Shepard Book who liked strawberries, I think. So weird, random details. Yeah, those are interesting details that you wrote. Oh, and the Reavers. Yeah, the Reavers, which were horrifying. So tell me, why are we talking about Firefly and Serenity today?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we've been talking a little bit about science fiction recently.
Speaker 1:It's been on my mind and we've been thinking about, you know, our dad and science fiction, and this was one that we were already both out of the house because it was like oh two was when it, when it aired, oh two or three, and then the movie was in 05.
Speaker 1:But so we were both already out of the house, but this was one that, like dad really loved, it was Cowboys in Space, which was like two of his favorite genres, and so since we've been talking about that a little bit recently, it sort of came up and I wanted to go back to it.
Speaker 1:For that reason and also because, you know, you and I we recently talked about fandoms in our Galaxy Quest episode and we're sort of deeper into fandoms now than we were when we were kids, and I think this was the Firefly fandom was one of an early one where, like, the fan demand actually did result in something happening, which has happened many times since, but it was an early example of that, and so that was another reason I wanted to sort of go back and you know, that popped up in my head as a result of our recent conversations both about science fiction and thinking about that and about fandoms. So that's why, and let me just briefly tell you what I kind of want to talk about today before I do a, I'll do as concise as I can synopsis, although we both know I'm really, really good at concision here In some ways it's a little easier because it's a TV show, because it's more like you can just give us what the yeah, I'll probably do.
Speaker 1:The characters, yeah, yeah. So I want to talk about there's been a lot of ink and airtime spilt about whether or not this franchise is feminist, which is something I want to get into, and bigger than that, actually, joss Whedon. There's a lot of opinions about whether or not Joss Whedon's work is feminist or not. So I want to talk about gender in the film and sort of the difference between having strong female characters and being feminist. Like I'd like to kind of pull apart and discern between those things. I also want to name, like you talked about, the fact. So Inara is a companion, which is the guild of prostitutes in this future world that's been envisioned. It's not regulated. It's not that it's regulated or it's self-regulated because there's a guild, so it's not that it's government regulated and it is to a certain extent, as you said, respectable. But also, as you said, there's this kind of push me, pull me about sex work. So I want to talk about that within the and this is kind of in the context of, like our dad, like we didn't envision this future. It's like 500 years in the future where we have cowboys in space but there is not a single alien in sight and in fact, the movie gave us an explanation of how the Reavers came to be, and they are very much human. They've lost their humanity, but they are very much human in terms've lost their humanity but they are very much human in terms of like species, and I think that's really interesting and I think that was one of the things that dad really liked about it. So I think that's something that I want to talk about. But also, like in that sort of question of like what that future is with no aliens, there's also some things that, like whedon, I think was think was a writer at heart I've read a little bit where, like where other directors might allow their actors to kind of like feel into the character and ad lib a bit Like Whedon wanted the dialogue delivered precisely as he wrote it because he was a writer at heart, and that leads to some interesting things, I think. In the way that it maps out in this show, for instance, he's envisioning a time, 500 years in the future, so everyone speaks at least some Mandarin Chinese, which feels like a thing that one would say like well, with the way population is growing, probably everyone speaks some Chinese and we've seen that in other places. Blade Runner had the same logical conclusion and yet not a single character is of Asian descent. I was just going to ask that, Are there any? No, no, no. So there's some tension there which I want to get into my own kind of reaction to this.
Speaker 1:I loved this whole franchise from the moment I was exposed to it. I am a writer and so that focus on like sharp dialogue like really appeals to me. And now, watching it with a more critical eye, there are moments which maybe I'll name them where I'm like oh, that would have read really nicely but it actually doesn't make sense because, like once it's like done in the writer's mind, like what does the other character do? He just sort of like walks away awkwardly. So I want to kind of get at that reality, that comportment of the artist, the auteur in this case Joss Whedon as a writer making something that is not only written, and like what works and what doesn't about that. I think that's kind of going to be interesting for us.
Speaker 2:I just saw a meme on Writing, about Writing, that said I hate how songs can just fade out at the end. How come, when I don't know how to end a story, I can't just let it go Fade out at the end, fade out. And so I'm thinking like that is like the difference between writing a story and like having something that is a different genre.
Speaker 1:Yeah, A different medium.
Speaker 2:A different medium.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Whedon did it well. I don't want to suggest otherwise, but I think he led with the writing. Now there's a lot of controversy about Whedon. I actually don't want to spend a lot of time on that in our hour together. We have talked about it before and I can link in the show notes to our episode about Buffy when Kate Moody came on to be our guest. So there's a lot out there.
Speaker 1:The only thing I want to say about it and maybe we'll do another episode, I think, like Neil Gaiman, actually, I think Joss Whedon had a very lonely and awkward childhood because of how smart and weird he was. My read is that he was always observing so he could predict how people would behave, but everyone in the world was a non-player character to him, and I think that's true of Neil Gaiman as well. There are no other players in this game except for him, which and also he's an astute observer of human behavior, and so he's able to show us these stories that really ring true. But he's just moving things around on a board, and that's my take on Whedon. It is similar to that of Gaiman, and I don't actually want to go any further than that. I don't want to pull apart, like what do we do as the consumers of the art? We should have that episode, but I want to talk about Firefly this time. Fair enough, All right. So let me see if I can set the stage about this franchise. I'm not going to do a full plot synopsis. There are 14 episodes and a feature-length film, so I'm not going to try, and you know, do a plot synopsis of the whole arc. Rather I will talk about sort of the key recurring characters and paint the background picture.
Speaker 1:So we're approximately 500 years in the future. This Earth, our Earth, has been completely used up and so humanity left it and terraformed planets throughout the universe to greater and lesser extent. In the planets sort of closer to one another I guess they call them the core planets created this group called the Alliance, which is a united government, and they had most of the resources. And then the outer planets, further from the core, have fewer resources and less access to sort of the 500 years in the future technology and they're living much more like american western frontier. There was a civil war, fought and lost by the rebels, and it's now six years later when we meet our key cast n Nathan Fillion's character. Malcolm Reynolds was a sergeant in the brown coats was what the rebels called themselves and experienced extreme losses.
Speaker 1:In fact, the series opens in the pilot, which did not air first, with a battle scene where he thinks that things are turning around and it's actually the exact opposite and, like, everyone in his platoon gets killed, except for him and his second in command, Zoe, played by Gina Torres. So now it's six years later and he has a ship and he's basically just trying to live off the grid. A bit of a mercenary like, takes jobs as he gets them. So on his crew is Zoe, Gina Torres, who was in the war with him. His pilot is Wash, played by Alan Tudyuk, who is Zoe's husband. I have no idea if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, but Wash, I know I'm pronouncing that correctly. I think it's.
Speaker 2:Tudyk, but I might be wrong.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Then we have Inara, who you remember she's the companion played by Marina Baccarin, jane, who's the doctor, and Shepard Book, played by Ron Glass, so he's a preacher. And there's another guy whose name I don't remember he turned out to be a bad guy and in the cargo, hold in a box, is Simon's sister, river Tam, played by Summer Glau.
Speaker 2:Their names are so similar, I love it, I remembered the character's name is Summer instead of River.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's the actress's name. And River is beyond a genius Like she is out of this world, smart and also, to a degree, a genius Like she is out of this world, smart and also, to a degree, a psychic. And the Alliance had sort of lured her into an academy where they did experiments on her. They basically turned her into a weapon. We don't fully learn that until later. So Simon and River are wanted by the Alliance, so they're fugitives. Mal has no love of the Alliance, since he was on the side of the rebels in the Civil War, so he decides to let them stay. And what we get?
Speaker 2:is this, isn't there like an engineer too? Oh yes, kaylee, thank you.
Speaker 1:Yes, kaylee is the mechanic and she is played by jewel state. And kaylee is another sort of prodigy where she's not trained, just knows how engines work intuitively and she's like a master mechanic and can fix anything. And she's like a master mechanic and can fix anything. She's also like adorable. She totally has the hots for Simon. He's kind of busy like trying to like not die and save his very damaged, very gifted sister.
Speaker 1:So that's our cast of characters and we get to know each of them relatively well, except River, mostly a plot device, and mal is definitely our hero, right, like I mean, each of them has a role but like mal, as the captain, is our hero and he has this integrity. But it's like honor among thieves, like we watch him from the very beginning, kill people, double cross folks, like we learned that he in the past there was somebody that he wants to go see who tried to shoot him because of a deal combat. Like he's this anti-hero who's also a hero, which is kind of fascinating, I think. But we're meant to see him as this sort of like tough guy with a heart of gold. Right, and he's definitely our hero. But we're meant to see him as this sort of like tough guy with a heart of gold Right, and he's definitely our hero. And what's also interesting about him is Fillion is very handsome. I think he's still very handsome, but back then when he was I mean this is 20 years ago and like he was a heartthrob yeah.
Speaker 1:He really was, and also he tends to be comic relief often, which I think is also like a really interesting move on whedon's part. You know that he took this very handsome man and we get to see him handsome, we get to see him shirtless occasionally, you know, but we also see him sort of ridiculous, you know, or like in some way kind of made to look silly or left holding whatever I can't think of the idiom, but you know what I mean Like.
Speaker 1:and there's this, this comic relief at his expense somewhat regularly which is another sort of interesting way in which I think Whedon understands tropes well and then subverts them just enough to delight us and I think that's an example of one of the ways that he does that.
Speaker 1:Okay, so in this universe, 500 years in the future, it's sort of like think Hunger Games, right, because we've got the folks in the center who've got a lot of resources and the folks on the edges who don't, and they're definitely suffering. And now we've got our crew on the ship which is called Serenity that's the name of the ship. It's a Firefly class, hence the name of the show, and they're kind of Robin Hood. They're looking for jobs where they can steal stuff or move stuff or whatever, and you know, and make money at it. But we are shown over and over again that, to the extent that he is able, mal wants to do it in such a way that he's stealing from the Alliance to help out folks on the outer planets, like folks who have less.
Speaker 1:The bad guys there's sort of two villains there's the Alliance who are bureaucratic, out-of-touch, kafkaesque bureaucrats, and then there's the Reavers, which you remember, and the Reavers are human but monsters, like absolute monsters, and when we are told what they're going to do because we're told many times, like the people in the in the core and the alliance believe that this is like a myth, like campfire stories, that they're not real. They're very real, but every time we're told what they're going to do, they'll rape us to death. Then they'll eat us and they'll turn their our skins into their clothing and if we're very, very, they'll do it in that order. So, like these guys are boogeymen Yikes Boogeymen Like they cut on themselves and stuff like bad, real bad.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of the universe that we're in and the show, the 14 episodes, there's various adventures, it's episodic, where we get to see some backstory and we get to see some character development, and it's delightful, it's really delightful. I think whedon tends to like kind of frame stories. The first few minutes we see something and then two hours earlier or whatever like, and then we and then we we catch up with ourselves from the beginning. He tends to like that frame and in that frame too there's one episode Out of Gas I believe it's called where through that we also get a whole bunch of backstory through flashbacks, which is, I think some folks might find it hard to follow because it's not linear storytelling. I found it absolutely delightful. So, yeah, that wasn't much of a synopsis, but that's the kind of universe in which we're working Among the crew.
Speaker 1:Zoe and Wash so the former veteran that he brought with him and Wash, the pilot, are married. Serious sexual tension between them and romantic tension and like all of the mutual pining that makes for great fan fiction and like really shitty actual human romance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but since it's only 14 episodes, it works.
Speaker 1:We'll talk about that. All right, I haven't seen it in 10 years, so Kaylee and Simon also have some tension, which gets relieved in the movie. But I mean, he's kind of distracted and she does the mutual pining or the pining thing, like with this kind of she ends up because she's like a like doubts her attractiveness and doubts her desirability or worthiness or whatever it ends up she ends up becoming that she's beautiful because she doesn't know if she's beautiful. It's kind of gross.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, the other thing that's gross that I remember about Kaylee was that she gained like 20 pounds for the show because she was supposed to be a little bit overweight and then when the movie was greenlit, it happened quickly and she lost the weight and come back to her natural weight and so she didn't have time to to bulk up again and like I read that going like she went what yeah, she's not overweight, she's not even remotely overweight during the show. No, and like she's adorable. Yeah, she's adorable and Weird.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that. I did not know that there's some tension, not sexual. Well, there probably are some shippers, but I'm not going there Because Mal, actually, in the flashback from five years ago or six years ago in the war, we see him kiss a cross right before disaster and, like all of his people, die, and so he has some like serious resentment against God, I guess, and religion, and so Shepard Book, who is a preacher. There's some explicit tension between them. There's also tension between Jane the muscle and pretty much everybody. So that's sort of the culture on the ship. Oh, shepard Buck pays for his fare with strawberries.
Speaker 2:That's why I remember the story. That's what it was.
Speaker 1:That's what I remember, because they don't have like actual fresh food most of the time. So since I just was naming relationships, let me start there.
Speaker 1:Actually let me start with gender and Bechdel and then move into relationships. So the Bechdel test listeners reminder from Alison Bechdel we ask ourselves three questions. Are there at least two named female characters? Do they talk to one another and do they talk to one another about something other than a man or a boy? They talk to one another and do they talk to one another about something other than a man or a boy? Now, if we look at Firefly and Serenity, in total, yes, it passes Bechdel, but if we look at any one individual episode, it may or may not pass that third question. So there are several named female characters who are not cardboard cutouts. River's a little bit of a cardboard cutout but Zoe and Kaylee and Inara are all like actual characters Fully formed yeah.
Speaker 1:And they talk to one another, but they're often talking to one another about a man, about Mal or about Simon, so in any given episode it may not pass speck tell completely. So that's worth noting, yeah, especially like when we get into the question about whether or not this is a feminist franchise. And then let's talk about relationships, let's talk about romance, and like part of what I found delightful about this 20 years ago was the romance and now watching it, I'm watching and Zoe and Wash have a great relationship.
Speaker 2:I remember really loving their marriage.
Speaker 1:They have a great relationship and the way that Wash interacts with Zoe is delightful and like real.
Speaker 2:It's like there's a moment where he knows that she could like Kill him. Kill a moment where he knows that she could like kill him.
Speaker 1:kill him, and he loves that about her yes, but also like there's a moment where they're arguing in one of the episodes where she's getting really agitated and he's not sure why, or he thinks she's overreacting, basically, and she's like this is serious and he's like this is serious and he's like I'm getting that, but it's not like you're overreacting. He doesn't say that, he does not belittle her, he sort of is like yeah, I'm getting that.
Speaker 1:And there's that specific moment between the two of them just felt like arguing among equals, which I really really appreciate, even in Rewatch. So that relationship feels really good to me, like a good model of heterosexual coupling. It is the only example. So Inara, who was born on the planet where the academy is for companions like, this was always her path. So she's been trained to be attuned to other human beings from childhood and yet the sexual tension and the misunderstanding and the talking past each other that happens between her and Mal is straight out of 2005.
Speaker 1:And that feels disappointing, because part of, I think, what can be delightful about science fiction is when we sort of say like okay, well, what if? And then we spin out the logical conclusions and I think we didn't start to do that. Say like okay, well, what if? And then we spin out the logical conclusions and I think Whedon started to do that with like what if sex work, if, like, elevated to an art form, became sort of a respectable profession? Like what would that look like and would it be respected everywhere? And like he asked those questions and gave us some really interesting answers but didn't think about how that would work out with someone with whom she was actually like, potentially interested in romantically.
Speaker 2:I'd like to stay on this for a second, just that, because that that really sparked something in me. So the thing that I remember, that I remember kind of bothering me a little bit or maybe I don't know. So companions are respected, but anytime Mal is annoyed at Inara, he uses kind of derogatory terms for prostitutes to her and she's like that is not what I am and that felt icky, not what I am and that felt icky. Now I'm thinking about because there are we have had that happen where professions become elevated over time.
Speaker 2:So I'm thinking like doctors doctors used to be that was kind of like a lower class profession. That was now. It was never had the stigma that sex work has, but it was not something like a gentleman's son would do, because it would be like being a shopkeeper. But now, like you know, you have a doctor in the family. That is something you brag about to everyone. This is amazing. I have a doctor in the family and so I'm thinking about like and I guess the difference is that a doctor was never, never carried the stigma that prostitution and sex work does, but like calling someone a sawbones when you're annoyed at them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's also to Whedon's credit on this one in particular, like because of the way that he has built this universe with the central planets and the outer planets central planets and the outer planets and we see that there are different cultures, like in the episode called our mrs reynolds, where mal accidentally gets married on an outer planet. I remember that one. Yeah, because he doesn't know that's what's happening. He doesn't know that when this pretty girl like puts flowers on his head and gives him a bowl to drink from that.
Speaker 1:that's a marriage ceremony in that she talks about having been in the maiden house like just waiting to be basically sold off for marriage, and so we definitely get the sense that there are these different cultures within the broader alliance culture who have different attitudes. I think it is within the universe of serenity and fly or fly. I think it is cohesive that among the alliance companion is a respected and that no one within the alliance kind of culture would call her a whore, that's the word that he uses, but that's not where Mal's from.
Speaker 1:Gotcha and he's actually very like, kind of antithetical to alliance culture, and so I think that tension actually does make sense, cohesive, like it's comprehensible within the universe that has been built within the world, that's been built within this franchise. Okay, that makes sense, but let's actually stay with sex work within this franchise. Okay, that makes sense, but let's actually stay with sex work within this franchise. This girl who he accidentally marries turns out to be actually a trained companion who is now gone rogue and mercenary and tricked him and tricked him, and so I mean that episode in particular is like I could probably do a full episode of ours, on just that episode, because there's some very like feminist sentences.
Speaker 1:Right when we have Mal sort of saying to Saffron this girl like hey, nobody can own you, that's not how this works, like you're a full person, which sounds very feminist, except that it's like a dude saying it to a woman. Yeah, and she turns out to be a woman who, like was using, was very savvy and using her sexual wiles to trick him, which then just sort of reinforces the idea that the 20th century idea that, like men have to be careful of, like conniving women, Well, and isn't like?
Speaker 2:one of the plot points of that is like he's like no, no, I'm not going to sleep with you You're? You know this innocent young woman who has no idea what's going on? I'm not going to do that. But she, like, seduces him and he's like yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean she shows up in his bed naked, yeah, and then she has like a drug on her lips, yeah.
Speaker 2:And knocks him out. I remember reading something or something we're talking about, how like Mal is not a hero in that moment. If, watching that, we're invited to be like, how could you do anything else? Look at that beautiful woman in your bed and like, easily, you can easily do something else because it is inappropriate and he says it at the time.
Speaker 1:I mean, he actually says that. Mal says that in the moment.
Speaker 2:Well, does he say like I'm going to hell or something?
Speaker 1:Well, shepard Bookhead told him that there's a special, special level on hell. For he said, if you take sexual advantage of that girl, you will go to a special level on hell. For he said, if you take sexual advantage of that girl, you will go to a special level of hell reserved for child predators and people who talk in the theater, in the theater and so he says, yeah, I'm going to special hell, or something like that as he kisses her back.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, I mean. So there's that moment in this story arc and that's one of my favorite episodes in part because of at the end, and nara actually like, oh mal, you sweet idiot, like she kisses him when she finds him knocked out.
Speaker 2:And then she gets knocked out which you know.
Speaker 1:20 years ago, I thought was the height of romance. Yeah, yeah but then there there are other episodes how do I want to say the only women who show up as like guest stars, you know, like in one episode or in two episodes. The vast majority, if not all of them, are prostitutes or companions or both?
Speaker 2:Are you making a difference between prostitute and companion?
Speaker 1:Yes, I am Well companions are prostitutes who are like at the like guild level.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Like they're masters of their craft.
Speaker 2:Okay, they went to you, know they went to the academy, so they have a PhD.
Speaker 1:Yes, as opposed to just some like, as opposed to someone who like dabbles Put out a shingle. Yeah, they're not doodlers, they're artists. And there's one episode where we meet a former classmate of Inara's who is now running a brothel on an outer planet, and the girls in her employ are not trained companions.
Speaker 2:I see they are prostitutes.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so there's this, like there's this tension that I don't even quite know what to do with, where I think that, like I actually think Whedon thought he was being feminist, right explicitly so, and I'm not sure that he actually was he gave us some kick-ass female characters, which is on the way to feminism, but it's not all the way there. And I think, and like it's true, that the sex workers that we meet, even the prostitutes who are not trained companions, don't have pimps, they have full agency, they choose their clients, like the things that you know kind of give dignity to sex work and make it work and not servitude.
Speaker 1:And there's this still, like this, push me, pull me. Like in that episode I just named, where there's the brothel, like there's a scene that's very disturbing with one of the women who has betrayed her sisters from the brothel for money. And the man, the leader of the bad guys, is like now you're going to show everyone a woman's place and he makes her kneel and go down on him Like on a balcony, yeah, yeah. And like we're supposed to react that way, but also we see it happen.
Speaker 2:Like we don't see the whole blowjob, but we know what's happening. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so like there's that sort of like, I don't know, it leaves me feeling icky in ways that I'm not sure I saw 20 years ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think there's also part of the kind of tension that I'm feeling is that I think this show, this franchise, is sex positive, but I'm not sure it's as sex worker positive or as woman positive as Whedon thought that it was, or as I thought that it was 20 years ago when I was watching it. All right, let me talk about the storytelling piece now. So there's a scene in the pilot where Simon, the doctor, who's a fugitive kind of confronts Mal. This is near the end and is like why are you even letting us stay? And they go back and forth in this sort of clipped pithy back and forth and it ends with Mal sort of saying like it's enough, like I'm still flying, it's enough, and like there's no real answer that Simon could give. Or let me restate that I think the writer in me says that's a complete thought.
Speaker 1:But the human being who actually has conversations with other human beings is like the conversation isn't actually over, right. So, like this time watching it, I'm like what does Simon do now? And he just, like the camera, watches Nathan Fillion look off it, you know out the window of the spaceship because he's flying, he's, you know, at the helm and sort of like this cute little smile and in the background Simon just walks away. So it's like the song fades out on Simon and, as a writer, chef's kiss. It's beautiful dialogue and as like a viewer, I'm like I think someone would have said something else.
Speaker 1:You know, and there are other moments sort of like that or not precisely, but sort of where, again, whedon is a writer first and uses this weird flowery language which is kind of fun, like it's a cowboy show and he's got them like riding horses and oxen and stuff, and so like they use weird kind of old-fashioned sort of which feels really cunning hat, cool, yeah, or like.
Speaker 1:There's one point where Kaylee says I ain't had nothing between my nethers that ain't run on batteries in over a year and like, and Mal says I don't need to hear more about that and Jane says I'd like to, but the use of the phrase nethers like, and there are other moments like that where they say I suppose and like, like, just sort of like folksy and old fashioned, and also they speak Mandarin and like I loved it and like I loved it. I don't know that it's actually like. Just based on the way that language we've seen language in the past 20 years, it doesn't feel true and like it's Cowboys in Space Trace, like why are you looking for true but also science fiction? Like he's taking it seriously. He actually is trying to ask the questions like what, if? What would it look like?
Speaker 1:I think the language of Firefly and Serenity, as much as I love it, is not what it would look like. So that's like a tension that I'm seeing now that I did not see at all 20 years ago. I just ate it up. I just ate it up. I loved it.
Speaker 2:You know I'm thinking about the. What you're talking about, about the writing, where it's like chef's kiss. But it doesn't really work in this medium, exactly because that's not how human beings have conversations. Similar to how, like, nobody ever says goodbye on telephones in movies, and once you see it you can't unsee it. But at the same time it's just like. There are things that I just excuse. So, for instance, enormous apartments in New York City, in sitcoms, because logistically that's all that's going to work, not saying goodbye when you hang up the phone, those sorts of things or like people speaking English in the ancient Near East.
Speaker 2:Yes, those sorts of things right, or like people speaking english in ancient, in the ancient near east, yes, but what it sounds like you're pinpointing here is like an incomplete job of the writer, so like or like he's refraining from killing his darlings.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is that. And the incomplete yes, both the incomplete job and the refraining from killing darlings. Yes, yes, and the darlings are darling and I loved them the first time I watched it. But the incomplete shows up in the fact that they all speak at least some Mandarin and there are no people of Asian descent Right Like that's where the sort of incompleteness is.
Speaker 1:It may be the case I did not do like a very careful line by line analysis, friends but it may be the case that Alliance folk speak with more sort of standard grammar and lexicon than the folks like Kaylee and Mal who are meant to have been from outer worlds. That may be the case, I don't know. But even sort of the idea that there's something poetic about the idea that the language and the dialect would have reverted to I don't know Appalachia in these worlds that look like Appalachia, I don't think it's actually. It's a darling, I guess, or maybe it's a shorthand, maybe I'm not being fair.
Speaker 2:Now, to be fair, to Whedon the Appalachian dialect. As I understand it, linguists believe it is the closest to the English dialect from the settlers who came to America.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've heard that too. I've heard that too.
Speaker 2:So things do linger Linger for a long time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm not sure that that kind of linguistic history is what he had in mind, though, because he also shoved the Mandarin in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's lingered the way that it has, because, because, the culture are so isolated, yes, and people stayed. They didn't go to far-flung cults, they weren't you know, settlers on far, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah. So the last thing I want to name, which I didn't say in my you know initial but I just want to like lift it up here name, which I didn't say in my you know initial but I just want to like lift it up here in terms of storytelling and killing darlings. He literally kills two characters in like major characters, like it, if the, if we, if serenity is fan fiction of firefly, like mind, the tags, friends, major character death and it's both like shocking and also I have to you know, grudging respect, like that's what the story needed, that's what the, that's what the story demanded. Shepherd book would not have survived the attack of the you know there's in the movie. The alliance has said in a sent an assassin. It's the movie is like kind of after the show but also kind of rewrites a little bit. There's some continuity issues that, if you really care like the Firefly, serenity fans like, go check it out on the wiki.
Speaker 1:I'm not deep enough in the weeds to get into that, but the Alliance has sent an assassin to get River and through the course of running from him we discover actually that the Alliance created the Reavers accidentally. The assassin destroys all of the safe houses where Serenity would go, including now. Shepard Book is off the ship and was running his own little settlement called Haven, and the Alliance destroys all of it, kills them all, and Shepard Book wouldn't have survived. I think, if that is the storyline that we were writing, that is what would have happened Now. Wash dies right before the climax of the film, which I don't think was required by the story, but it did feel useful insofar as, like we're on the edge of our seats, as the viewers, like our guys are in peril, like our beloved heroes are in peril, having one of them actually die lets us know this is real.
Speaker 1:This shit is real and we're not pulling punches and it's a universally beloved character too.
Speaker 2:Like I think if Jane had died it would have been like, well yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I think you're right, Because Jane is a dick Like. He says misogynist things, he says terrible things that, to be fair to the show, the characters call him on Like when he says awful shit.
Speaker 1:people call him on it and like confront him and at one point, because he does something awful like Mal, almost puts him out the airlock. But Wash, everybody loved, like he just was like this goofy. He's a very skilled pilot but just this like goofy guy who like adores his wife and likes the job you know. So, yeah, I think you're. I think you're right that killing wash in particular not jane, I think kaylee would have had a similar effect yeah, really raised the stakes for the fans. I will say that's specifically the Firefly fans. I actually encountered this franchise the wrong way around. I was not a Firefly fan. I was at our dad's friend's house, alan's house, and it was new, and I watched it with their family.
Speaker 2:The Serenity, serenity.
Speaker 1:And I had never seen Firefly and I didn't know what was going on and I was like what is she wearing? Why is she wearing that in space? About an aura?
Speaker 2:because I didn't, I did not understand like why would you?
Speaker 1:wear that on a spaceship. So I wasn't quite as moved by wash's death the first time around because I didn't have that background. So if you took serenity as a standalone which I think you can, actually it's it a good film. But for those who were coming in which is the reason it was made having him die in that moment really raised the stakes in a way, so that we understood that we're taking this story to its logical conclusions, whatever they might be. Whedon is a good storyteller. He's a really good storyteller. Like, I'm not making a judgment on his character, but I think the fact that Wash and Stepper Book die in the movie is actually evidence of his good storytelling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're running a little short on time. You have not yet gotten to the no aliens. Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1:Yes, so one of the things that like I think is is really interesting about this and that the movie like really tied up neatly is the fact that, like Earth dried, like we used it up and we went out there, and, unlike Star Trek, where they use like new alien cultures as the kind of episodic plots plot, there are no aliens. It's not a shortcut. He refused to take that shortcut. There's a shortcut to say like, well, what if there's an alien race? And they do, blah, blah, blah. You know, and there are interesting questions to ask and answer with that kind of shortcut.
Speaker 1:We didn't, didn't do that and I think there's something again like really, really interesting and like speaks to his power as a storyteller and tim manier too, who who helped write it, that they sort of said like okay, well, what does it look like? What does space travel look like? What happens to human culture? Just human culture. We don't need intervention of outsiders outside of the human race in order to like have the drama and the conflict and the war and the mistreatment. We don't need Martians to make that happen. Like let's take this really seriously in humanity, and I remember dad really appreciating that in humanity and I remember dad really appreciating that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know this reminds me of the way that you're putting this I talked, I don't remember, but at some point about. There was this historical fantasy that I read, where it was what if there were zombies in Victorian England? But what had happened was there was actual magic and there was in the midst of a war the French sent tainted face powder, I remember you telling me about that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so it went to like the very rich women and because of that, like an entire ecosystem grew up around. Like protecting these women, so like there was a company that would send them like brain slices so that they could eat. And you know, it was okay to be a zombie. But at the same time there were men who you know, used this as an opportunity to get rid of a wife. Well, she's dead, so I can remarry, and so this wife is without. So, like it thought through the logical consequences. Monsters and Manners, I think, is the name of the book, but it thought through the logical consequences of like, well, what if this happened in something where we know how the society is? And so it feels like what would our society be like in space?
Speaker 1:Right, and like really thought through the logical consequences of that and his answer is like, just like here, with power hoarding and wealth hoarding and you know, and like ridiculous bureaucracy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the willingness to destroy anything, to gain more power, to create weapons, to exploit talents and the how the Reavers were created was a like, really really like affected me, Like that's something that has stuck with me.
Speaker 1:They pumped some sort of drug into the air in the terraformed planet that was supposed to like calm people. It was like Xanax, it was supposed to just calm people down. And most of the population just laid down and died, but like one. Yeah one percent, one tenth of one percent. It had the opposite effect and they got extremely aggressive and they became Reavers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and like that stuck with me in part because I'm like, oh yeah, that seems like something.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 2:Totally something we would do. Totally something, we would do it also. It contextualize the Reavers, because they're a tragedy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, although it's interesting, we don't really have time for it. No-transcript, which I suppose is a trauma response, but that was like a different explanation from the show than what we had with this sort of drug in the air. I think that we can reconcile the two, but I actually think the solution in the movie was a later decision on whedon's part.
Speaker 1:It worked, it worked, but oh, yeah, yeah all right, let me see if I can remember the things that we talked about. There was a lot. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's sex positive, but it's not always sex worker positive. We've got kick-ass female characters, but they don't always pass Bechdel. And we've got these kick-ass female characters who still end up in these ridiculous miscommunication oh, will he or won't he? She's beautiful because she doesn't know she's beautiful. Kind of ridiculousness. Beautiful because she doesn't know she's beautiful. Kind of ridiculousness. That deeply like, that, just like resonated at the same frequency as my mental furniture.
Speaker 1:At the time I talked about the relationships that we do see. Wash and zoe is really lovely and that was really nice. But then there's this, the pining that we have with anara and Mal and Simon and Kaylee. There's also all of the women we meet off the ship. Most of them are prostitutes or companions, if they have any kind of real speaking role, which I'm not sure what that means in Whedon's imagination of what the world is or what the future is there are other jobs out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and there were other jobs out there in the Old West too.
Speaker 1:And we even name that when Saffron, before we know she's actually a trained companion in this mal-explaining feminism to Saffron moments he's like there's work to be had. You can work in a factory or you can work in a field, or, like we hear it from the character's mouths, it was cowboys in space, which is really fun, and part of the way that that like gets conveyed is the Appalachian type, folksy, kind of archaic lexicon that they use, which is really delightful. And then when I start to scratch the surface, I'm like, hmm, I'm not so sure, and you named it, that was maybe like we didn't not, we didn't mean you're not killing their darlings or not being willing to kill their darlings, they were willing to kill their characters. And also and you named this, I think you're right is that not sort of fully thinking it out? Like not comprehensively? So they thought about the language, the fact that we would all speak at least some Mandarin Chinese, but they didn't put any people of Asian descent on the ship or really any of the like characters, like maybe an extra. So that feels a little inconsistent there.
Speaker 1:I talked about Whedon as sort of in the meta, like Neil Gaiman, kind of being very smart and very isolated but also a keen observer of human behavior and thinking like no one else in the world is another player. They're all non-player characters. Oh, I also talked about Mal, our hero, who's both a hero and an anti-hero because he does things that are pretty reprehensible, but he also has this integrity protects his crew like crazy and like he's sort of the trope of like the tough guy with the heart of gold. I know I'm forgetting things. What did I forget?
Speaker 2:We ended talking about the like how much Dad appreciated the fact that there were no aliens and that that was. It was clearly Whedon just thinking through. Like what are the natural conclusions? Like? If we put humanity in space, what would happen?
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you, and the answer is that it recreates and reifies a lot of the things that are wrong about human culture on Earth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because wherever you go, there you are yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you. Well, I have to say like I'm rearranging my mental furniture a little bit in this rewatch, but I still really like the furniture it still really ties the room together. I still really enjoyed it, like even these 20 years later. So, for whatever that's worth, what are we talking about next weekend?
Speaker 2:So next week I'm bringing you my deep thoughts about poltergeist. Oh shit, that scared the poop out of me Me too, I'm trying to exercise a childhood demon Right, right.
Speaker 1:Well, nice pun, nice pun, all right. Well until then.
Speaker 2:Until then.
Speaker 1:This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode.
Speaker 1:Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?