.png)
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
The Dark Crystal: Deep Thoughts About False Binaries, World Building, and What Emily Isn't Willing to Accept From Her Puppets
What was sundered and undone shall be whole–the two made one.
On today's episode of Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t, Emily returns to a beloved film from the Guy girls' childhood: Jim Henson's 1982 epic fantasy The Dark Crystal. Though the film's main character Jen the Gelfling follows the familiar beats of the hero's journey, baby Emily didn't understand the allegory of divine beings that are incomplete as Mystics and Skeksis without each other–and for good reason. Jim Henson drew inspiration from the book Seth Speaks by psychic medium Jane Roberts, which he claimed not to completely understand. But Henson's masterful attention to world building, his willingness to create a scary story for children, his exploration of spirituality through fiction, and his loving creation of ugly characters, all made for a meaningful--if imperfect--film.
Listen, Gelfling, there is much to be learned. So throw on your headphones and begin!
Mentioned in this episode
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
As a kid I really struggled with the idea that the Skeksis and the Mystics were two halves of a whole, because the Skeksis were so clearly awful and the Mystics were so clearly good. And one of the things that I read last night that really stuck with me was that the Mystics for a thousand years have just been chilling in this valley by themselves, and it was saying part of this duality is passivity versus action, and so the mystics are good but they don't do anything with it.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Speaker 1:I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I will be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1982 Jim Henson film, the Dark Crystal, with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you. Let's dive in. Okay, trace, I know you've seen it. This is part of our shared childhood, but tell me what's in your head about the Dark Crystal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, I loved it so much. I think we must have watched it with Chris, our cousin, like, oh God, I loved it so much. So what's in my head? I actually, I feel like I watched it again within the past must be 13 years like since my daughter was born and I remember being like, oh no, like I remember thinking like you can't go home again sometimes. So so here's my recollection, though.
Speaker 2:There were these little fairy creatures I remember a boy and a girl, and then they had like wings, or one of them did anyway, and there's some sort of an adventure and there are bad guys.
Speaker 2:They're called the skeksis, I think, and they're all like hunchbacked and like like that weird Frank Oz voice that he does when he's like being a hag, you know, like a crone, and they had magic and they had this giant crystal and there was a small shard missing from it, and I don't remember any of the journey of the adventure, but I remember there was like an impulse either to or not return the shard back into the giant crystal, and then like a unification, because the Skeksis and the whatever the fairy creatures are called they had a different name like were actually from the same creature. That had been like like cosmically or magically, like separated into two parts, like separated into two parts, and the skeksi for some reason wanted to destroy that part of them. That was like the magical, childlike attractive versions of them. You're a little bit off, but okay that's cool well, go ahead, you'll correct me.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's the thing. This is what's in my head, this is in my head and there is some sort of like reunification and like a big light shine. I remember like being very enamored with the relationship between the two of the fairy creatures whose name I don't remember, and there was a romance between them and I remember sort of really being like enamored of that, whatever that relationship was, whether it was actually romance or I projected romance, like that's what's in my memory and in rewatching, I think the thing that sticks in my head from like as an adult seeing it, was like there's no there there and the thing that I had totally like idealized and really like been enamored with was just vacuous. So that's what's in my head. It's like complicated and like this is you know Anyway. So that's what's there. But I would love to hear from you like why are we talking about it today? What are we going to talk about today?
Speaker 1:and like, correct me on the plot so as for why we're talking about it today, like you, I really loved this film as a child. It just holds a place in my my memory as this like journey. It is like the movie version of the book Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs. I don't know if you have any kind of relationship with that book.
Speaker 2:Not really so. My relationship with the book maybe we'll do this on another episode actually came after the movie, because the movie made me laugh so hard. I was like, oh, I feel like we read this. Anyway, carry on.
Speaker 1:I actually haven't seen the movie because it is so different from the book. Oh my God, it's hilarious, I'm sure it is. It's just the thing that I loved about the book was I liked the story, but each illustration was just full to bursting with its own little stories and so, on rewatching this film, I remember feeling the same kind of like sense of wonder and discovery and like I'm in on something, because I notice all of the creatures, all of the different little details that create this world of Thra. I wanted to kind of revisit that. There was also it's been about six years ago now but Netflix did a prequel where they and they did all Muppets, they didn't do any CGI other than like the background stuff that they couldn't do in 1982.
Speaker 1:So my son got really into it, and so that's another reason is because there's this connection I have with my son being really interested in this world building. So what I want to talk about like I do want to talk about gender a bit and some of what you were talking about, you know, remembering there being this romance there's an aspect of that as well, and specifically I want to talk about gender and the hero's journey. So that's one aspect of it. Another thing is spirituality is like deeply embedded through this, and some of it is. Jim Henson had these very like grand ideas and in fact Jim Henson took some ideas from the book Seth Speaks by Jane Roberts, who was both a science fiction writer and a psychic medium. Roberts, who was both a science fiction writer and a psychic medium, and so Seth Speaks was she would go into these trances and speak with an interdimensional being.
Speaker 2:I've heard of her. Have you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, because Esther Hicks, who's like a famous person who claims to be channeling guides, talks about Seth Speaks.
Speaker 1:Cool, okay, sorry, carry on so. And Henson in fact bought like a bunch of copies and gave it to everyone who was making this film and, like read this. And he actually said, like I don't entirely understand it, and you will understand it or not understand it in your own way. Some of the things that I found puzzling as a child I think are part of that, and that's something that I'm hoping you can help me with is religion and looking at like duality and things like that. I'm going to want to talk about like there's a lot of like these duality and like pushback against the usual way of looking at like binaries. I want to talk about why Henson was so comfortable writing, or not just comfortable, or not just comfortable. He wanted to write stories that could scare children, because he felt that we need to scare them a little bit. Stories can't be too safe. And I want to talk about the visual beauty of this film, because it is unbelievable. Those are the kind of things that I want to get into.
Speaker 1:Let me give you a synopsis of the plot, though it's not said during the story. This is the land of Thra, and there's a voiceover saying that it's another world, another time, during the Age of Wonder and it explains that a thousand years ago the Great Crystal was cracked and the land that had been good and green became like this horrible desert. And there are two kind of ethereal beings, types of ethereal beings, sort of thing. The one set lives in this like castle that is just this ugly blades, basically, is what the castle looks like. And they're the Skeksis.
Speaker 1:Now, skeksis is like moose in that it is plural and singular, but I'm probably going to refer to an individual Skeksi as without the S. So there are 10 Skeksis left and on this day the emperor is dying. The Skeksis are evil and cruel and materialistic. They are like rat vulture creatures that wear these like velvets and, like you know, royal garb Like draping robes. I remember Draping robes, yes. At the same time, we learn that there are 10 mystics that live in a valley and the wisest of the mystics is dying.
Speaker 2:Oh right, it's not the fairies and the Skeksis, it's the Skeksis and the mystics. Right, got it?
Speaker 1:Sorry and so the wisest mystic calls his protege to him, and that is a gelfling named Jen, and Jen is the last of the gelflings, because all of their kind were killed by the Skeksis. So we see the Emperor die. We see the wisest mystic die. The mystic tells Jen that he must find the shard and take it to the castle and he's like where do I find the shard? Go to Agra. She is about a day's journey away and must do this before the three sons meet. We see the Skeksis without the emperor, there is a power vacuum and the emperor and the wisest mystic both die at the same time. So there's this kind of connection between them, this kind of connection between them. The Chamberlain and the general fight over who will be emperor and they do trial by stone, where they each have a sword and they are hitting a huge stone and whoever knocks it knocks, the top off wins. The Chamberlain has this really interesting way of they talk about him whimpering he goes, and that when I learned the word obsequious was what I thought of.
Speaker 2:I think that's what I meant when I said like Frank Oz doing this sort of like crone voice, yes, and actually that's not Frank Oz's doing the voice. Oh, interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a different voice actor and puppeteer, I think as well. So the general wins and because he has won, the Chamberlain becomes an outcast, which means his robes are ripped from him and he is sent away. Jen starts on his journey. There's a lot of really weird voiceover where it's just his thoughts. That I think don't serve the film well. I think it would be better if we just watched him.
Speaker 2:I wonder if that was somebody telling Jim like we don't understand what's happening.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't know. So Jen continually says and thinks things like I'm only a gelfling and he doesn't understand what he's doing or what's going on. He comes upon Agra, he's doing or what's going on. He comes upon Agra, who was the character I remembered best, other than the Skeksis. She is this like wizened, like old creature. She has enormous breasts, but she also has ram's horns and like kind of not quite a beard, and she only has one eye, which when we first meet her Jen has been like pulled up in a trap that's up high, and so she's holding her eye up to see him and she is kind of Yoda-like in not really answering questions. She takes him into her home and she explains I was there when the Great Crystal cracked In her home. Is this like observatory? That's what they call it. I can't think of what it's called, but it's like the whirling like planets and stuff Like a planetarium. Yeah, but it's like an orloge or something like that. There's a specific name for For the like kinetic sculpture, that is the planet.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, the like kinetic sculpture that is the planet. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes. And so she says, like the great conjunction is coming, when the three suns meet, could be the end of the world, could be the beginning, no idea. And so he says, well, I need the shard, you have the shard. And she says where is it? And she finds a box and she pours it out and there's like a dozen of them, there's a dozen shards. And he says how do I know which one it is? Which is it? And she says I don't know. So he has seen an image of the shard. So he narrows it down to three that look like the image. And then we've seen him playing his little flute and we see that the mystics like kind of chance, like that om kind of thing from meditation, meditation, and so he pulls out his flute and plays a note and it causes one of the shards to glow and he knows that's the correct one.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile the skeksis have learned that there is still one gelfling left and we learned that they killed them all because there was a prophecy that it would be a gelfling that healed the crystal and ended the Skeksis. So they send their army, which are these kind of like giant crab, spider creatures called the Garthim. So they send them to find Jen and they arrive at Agra's home and destroy it and Jen is able to get away, but he is far away and can see it burning and he thinks that Agra is dead. So he's still not entirely sure what it is he's supposed to do with the shard. He continues on his journey and he is kind of tracked for a little bit and he knows someone is tracking him but he doesn't know what's going on. And then he runs into this tiny little puff ball of a creature, fizgig, that like barks at him I remember that it's like a tribble with a dog face, yes, and a dog tail. A person with a hood comes and is talking to Fizgig in another language and he has fallen into some water and like is stuck in the mud and is talking to Fizgig in another language. And he has fallen into some water and is stuck in the mud and is talking to Fizgig. And then she pulls off her hood and she's another Gelfling and he's like I thought I was the only one. She's like I thought I was the only one. She gives him her hand to help him out of the water and they dream fast, which means they can suddenly hear and see each other's memories, and so we learn that Jen was rescued after his family was killed by the mystics and raised by them, and Kira, which is this other gelfling's name. She was saved from the destruction of the gelfling village because her mother put her in a tree and then was taken away, and so the Garthim didn't see her there, and so she has been raised by the Podlings, which is another creature that lives in this area, and we've seen Podlings that are like less colorful, working as slaves for the Skeksis. So Kira brings Jen back to her village. There's this lovely scene of the Podlings celebrating them and dancing and eating and having a wonderful time, and they talk a little bit about what's happening.
Speaker 1:The Garthim come and destroy the village and Jen and Kira get away. Jen is injured and he's really upset because he feels like he's responsible for the village being destroyed. He throws the shard away from him and Kira says the Garthim have always come. This was not your fault. She heals his arm, they sleep and the next morning they realize where they are.
Speaker 1:They're at an old gelfling village and Kira says I don't want to go here. We don't go here anymore. It's a bad place because of the things that happened here. But they still go and explore and they find a mural that's carved in stone, that shows the great crystal. They showed it cracking. Kira says, well, what is that up there? And he says it's writing. She's like what's writing? He says words that stay, my master taught me, and so he's able to read it and read the prophecy, which tells him that the shard must heal the dark crystal at the moment of the great conjunction.
Speaker 1:While they're there, the Chamberlain, who has been following them, finds them and says I'm trying to be your friend. We made a horrible mistake killing the Gelflings. We did it because we were afraid of them, and if I take you to the castle and show you that we all just want peace, everything will be okay. And Jen is looking like he might be listening to the Chamberlain and Kira saying no, let's go away, let's get away. And finally Jen says no, no, I'm not doing this. So they run and Jen is kind of despairing, like well, we have to get to the castle. I don't know where it is, I don't know how to get there, I don't know how far away it is. And Kira says oh well, I can help you. And he says well, you don't have to come with me.
Speaker 1:She's like calls some animals that are these giant creatures called land striders, and even as a kid I could tell that it was a person on stilts with stilts in their hands. And so they ride. It's just amazing character design, like even knowing that that's a human being in there. I still remember finding it magical. So they ride the land striders to the castle.
Speaker 1:During all this time we have been seeing the mystics are starting to make their way to the castle as well. They're walking very slowly. They get close to the castle and they see the Gartham that had attacked the village with like a bag, like a cage full of the podlings. And Kira says we have to help them. And she rides her land strider over and is attacking the Gartham and Jen goes and tries to help her. They manage to open the cage to let the podlings out. The Gartham are coming towards them and so Kira grabs Jen they're right on the edge of a cliff grabs Jen and jumps over the edge and then wings pop out and so they float down. When they get to the bottom, jen says and I remember loving this as a little girl like I don't have wings. And she said of course not. You're a boy, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is like a gender essentialism interesting thing that I want to talk about as well yeah, it's funny because when I was telling you what I remembered, I was like they have wings. Nope, one of them has wings, and I like that was in my head that it wasn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sorry, carry on they find a back way into the castle. Kira again is afraid, but she goes with jen. They had, by the way, he had thrown the shard. They did find it the next day, so they do have the shard when they get into the castle. The Chamberlain finds them there and ends up grabbing Kira, and one of the two of them strikes him with the crystal, which causes like, not only cuts him but also causes this like sound that all of the Skeksis and all the mystics hear. We have meanwhile seen that one of the Skeksis, who's like a scientist, put a new podling into a chair, like tied down in front of the chamber where it's like a long column where the crystal is, and opens it up slightly with a reflector so that the purple of the crystal like shines into the podling's eyes and that drains his essence, which then the emperor drinks to remain young. It works, but the effects are. I found myself going sadly temporary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like Beaker, like Beaker, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me me.
Speaker 1:So the effects are very temporary. The emperor is angry and he's like you're a liar. And we hear the scientists say like it worked better with gelflings. So, oi, yeah, lost basically his will and that is why the slave podlings in the castle look so different from the ones in the village. So Kira is fighting to get away from the Chamberlain. The Chamberlain had been trying to entice them and gets angry and throws something at Jen that causes like a stone collapse. So not sure if Jen is okay or not, and Kira is being pulled away. Fizgig is trying to follow Kira and Kira says no, stay with Jen. So the Chamberlain comes into the main chamber with Kira and everyone was like Gelfling, gelfling, they're so afraid Kira. And everyone was like Gelfling, gelfling, they're so afraid. And Chamberlain says you know, this is my Gelfling, I found it, I'm bringing it back. And so the Emperor says all right, fine, you can have your robes back and I want her essence. So Chamberlain gets his robes back and Kira is brought to the scientist's room, which is filled with cages of animals and Agra, because the Garthim had brought her back after they had destroyed her home. So Kira is terrified that she's strapped in the way the podling had been and you can see her will being, her essence being sapped from her. Somehow, jen and Kira are connected. He comes out of the rocks and he goes. Kira fight them and she hears, even though they can't actually hear in terms of how far away they are. Agra says call the animals. They listen to you. You have that gift. And so she begins calling all the animals that are in this little dungeon area and they force themselves out of their cages and they attack the scientist and they help her get, they close the entrance and they help her get out of the restraints. Something that I just want to point out because it is so amazing she has like lines under her eyes afterwards that she didn't before, because some of her essence has been like she gets bags under her eyes. Yes, she gets bags under her eyes afterwards that she didn't before, because some of her essence has been like she gets bags under her eyes. Yes, she gets bags under her eyes. So jen has gotten out and found his way to the crystal room and there's a skylight over it that shows where the suns are.
Speaker 1:Kira finds her way to the crystal room as well, as the Skeksis are arriving, because they will become immortal and rule forever if they can get through the Great Conjunction without the crystal being healed. Fizgig finds Kira and starts barking, which attracts the attention of the Skeksis, and so Fizgig gets pushed into the giant shaft down like lava or whatever it is, and they grab Kira. So Jen jumps onto the crystal and he has the shard and he loses it and ends up on the floor and Kira grabs it. They're saying give it to us and we'll let you go, we'll let you free. Jen's saying yes, don't hurt her, don't hurt her, let her free. Kira says no, heal the crystal. And throws the shard to Jen. He's sitting on top of the dark crystal just as she is stabbed by a Skeksis and dies. And Jen waits until the three sons are one and plunges the shard into the crystal.
Speaker 1:This is just as the mystics have arrived and strange things are happening. The Skeksis are kind of running around, light goes everywhere and the mystics and the Skeksis merge together as the Ur-Skeks and they explain to Jen, who is now on the ground with Kira's body. You know, through our arrogance we split ourselves and fractured the crystal and now we are whole again. This is now the crystal of truth and try to remake the world in its image. Hold Kira to you, she is yours again and they've brought her back to life. Agra arrives, she has rescued Fizgig and then the Urskaks like ascend in light and that's the end of the story. That's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot, and it's a 90-minute movie. So I want to talk about, like, the hero's journey in gender, and specifically they actually use the term Jen is the chosen one and I was like they chose the wrong one.
Speaker 2:Kira's a badass and she has wings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kira's got wings. She would have just flown up to put the thing in there. I think they're gliding wings. I think they're like wings that, like you, can fly down. I don't think they fly up. She thinks she needs gravity to help her.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But so Kira's a badass. She can call the animals, she knows Gelfling history, which Jen does not. She has the presence of mind at the end to say no, heal the crystal at the end, to say no, heal the crystal to Jen rather than save me, because they're not going to let me go free, and so she's afraid.
Speaker 2:And does it?
Speaker 1:anyway, that's the definition of bravery. Yeah, so she's amazing and she's a sidekick. Only thing that jen brings to the table is he can read I mean that's a lot.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying it's not, and so like now, one of the things that I think is interesting is I, as a kid, I really struggled with the idea that the skeksis and the mystics were two halves of a whole, because the skeksis were so clearly awful and the mystics were two halves of a whole, because the Skeksis were so clearly awful and the mystics were so clearly good. And I understand that people are souls, are complete, like they have the capacity for good, they have the capacity for evil. But I was just like I don't see how the mystics are bad without the Skeksis, like I can see why the Skeksis are bad without the mystics. And one of the things that I read last night that really stuck with me was that the mystics for a thousand years have just been chilling in this valley by themselves, and it was saying part of this duality is passivity versus action, and so the mystics are good but they don't do anything with it, whereas the Skeksis have incredible agency. They are consistently like jockeying for position and making decisions and changing things and manipulating, and so that I was able to be like, oh, that's good, that is a good thing that the Skeksis have that they're using for evil, and so, with that in mind I was thinking about.
Speaker 1:Like Jen is a very passive character in a lot of ways, like he doesn't want to leave the valley where he's lived, he doesn't want to go on this quest. Like this is not like, oh, I finally get to explore the world. It's just like I really wish I were back in my valley. He's willing to listen to the Chamberlain because that's easier by the Podlings, who are, you know, they're not the same as her Gelfling family, but they are people who recognize, like, the danger inherent in the world they live in and they find a way to live within it. Like the fact that we see them just celebrating and joyful is really important and impressive, I think. Important and impressive, I think, which leaves me in this weird place with the Hero's Journey, because Jen is in some ways feels more like the Virgin's Promise, which I only recently learned about, and recently in the past couple years.
Speaker 1:So the Virgin's Promise is another archetypal story, like the Hero's Journey, that focuses more on stories that are more likely to have a female protagonist, where there are expectations placed on the main character that she must break out of to be true to herself. And while there's a lot that's, you know, jen refuses the call, has an older mentor who dies, you know, descends into the underworld, all of those things that fit the Campbell hero's journey. There's aspects of the Virgin's promise in the like, the passivity, and like not to say that Virgin's promise is always passive, but there is the starting off with the expectation of living for others and so, and then the fact that Jen's name is Jen in 1982. And the look of Jen and Kira is kind of humanoid, very feminine, looking Like. I texted you last night while I was watching I was like Jen is a Muppet twink. She did. She texted me that who is the driving force once they meet and is the one who knows things. It's just frustrating because so often stories have a hapless male protagonist and a badass female sidekick.
Speaker 2:So that's really interesting to me though, seeing that duality and like kind of the idea that jen and kira are complete at the end because they complement each other in the ways that the skeksis and the mystics complement yeah, I definitely think there's meant to be a mirror there, right like jen may be the chosen one, but he couldn't do it without kira, like they're actually the chosen two, you know, and like the sort of holding both of a binary is the thesis of this film. It sounds like, right like that, the two halves of the binary. You must have both in order to be complete and whole and healthy, and whatever. And jen and kira are two halves of a binary.
Speaker 1:Yes, Just seems like Jen's half is like a little mid.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, art reflects life, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I know, as a child I really struggled with the idea that the Erskinex were whole. I'm like, what did the Skeksis bring to the table? And that's actually one thing I wanted to kind of talk to you about, because you have the background in religion, like that idea of duality. Why do we need the ugliness, the capacity for cruelty, along with the good and the passivity in action? Really helped for me to see that and like, honestly, in our current political climate, I feel like I see that where we have, you know, like we sent a strongly worded letter with 13 points to the people who are like currently taking a chainsaw to the government, right, right. So like I definitely see like okay, yeah, we need a little more of that. That's kind of action. But what am I missing?
Speaker 2:here. It's such a complicated question and I actually want to zoom out a little bit and ask an even bigger question. I think that we have been given this idea of binaries and binary thinking, especially in the West, binary thinking as, like, the way to think right.
Speaker 2:And it comes from religious sources. We have from Torah and from Christian scripture. We have there's clean and unclean, there's holy and there's profane, there's day and there's night. These two sides of binaries is like over and over again in religious texts as well. Male and female and body and soul is a classic one that we think about religiously.
Speaker 1:So the Skeksis would be body and the Mystics would be soul.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually think that we are ill-served when we think of binaries hurt because they are hurt by the traditional male-female binary, but I think the point that they are making is actually much, much bigger, like there's a specific way in which that binary hurts our siblings, who are gender non-conforming. But I think there's an abstract way in which binaries, when held rigidly, hurt us. Period, right. And it's not just like ketchup or mustard Well, actually I like relish. It's not just sort of those sorts of preferences, it's also like the rigidity in thinking and the inability to sort of see third paths or fourth paths or tenth paths through. So that's like just like a broader commentary I want to talk about In terms of, like what Henson was drawing on, the cultural kind of lessons within the binary thinking.
Speaker 2:The body and soul is a great one to talk about, because I think there are those, you know. You think about the classic Cartesian, I think. Therefore, I am Nope, that ain't it. Ai thinks, is it a person? Mm-hmm. And my thinking, I know, is deeply influenced by my embodiment, right.
Speaker 2:So I'm just staying within the duality right now, like not even like the materiality of the fact that if there weren't a physical brain, there would be no thinking, because somebody might argue with me that it's soul and not brain.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure I agree with them. But also, like I know the ways in which, like when I'm exercising regularly, when I'm eating well, my thinking is clearer, is clearer, and the ways in which, like, we feel and think, when people talk about thinking with your gut, that's not just a metaphor, right like there's a, there's a thing that happens in embodiment and there's research that's been talked about, about, sort of like the secondary brain or whatever that's you know, like literally in the gut and the gut biome affects thinking. Like all of these things, all of these ways in which the idea of a duality that can be truly separated the way that the Skeksis and the mystics did, is false. And so I think, like within that received understanding of duality, like Henson's message is real and powerful. And I think for you know, for you, I mean there's theologians have been talking about this the actual question you asked me why do we need evil Like? Why did God make evil in the world? What purpose does it serve?
Speaker 1:Like we've been asking.
Speaker 2:Humans have been asking ourselves that question, or versions of that question, for thousands of years. So I don't pretend to have the answer, but some of the answers that have been offered are like you can't recognize the light if there is no darkness. If you live in a world of constant day, you just take it for granted, right, and you don't recognize the ways in which it's good. So there is knowledge in the contrast. You can't have holiness without also something that is mundane and I'm saying mundane, not profane Sort of that sense of like contrast actually teaches us. I think that's one of the answers. I think also, like some of the ways that you notice with that activity and passivity, like I think that that is real. I think too, like you said you know that is good that Skeksis is used for evil. I actually think all of it is neutral. That can be used for good or for evil, right. Like even the sort of like chilling in the valley, like meditating, is neutral and it can be used to improve the world and it can be used not right.
Speaker 1:But I think the mystics did not stop the genocide of the Galfords.
Speaker 2:They didn't right. I mean, they saved the one who ended up with them. But, they, you know they didn't actually use it to, like, improve the world in bigger ways.
Speaker 2:And so I think that's also a piece that I wanted to like kind of name, that I think there's a lot of things that we tend to like associate with negative or positive, but actually the thing itself, the tool itself, is neutral, like a brick is neutral. It can be used to build a house, it can also be used to be thrown through a window, but the brick itself is neutral, and I think that's true of all, just as money is neutral, exactly Exactly. And I think that's true of all, just as money is neutral, exactly Exactly. And I think that's true of all sort of the characteristics that we're naming and in some ways, like assigning them as good and evil, is part of what makes the confusion.
Speaker 2:Activity and passivity are both actually neutral. It depends on when and how they're used. Soul and body are actually neutral. It depends on when and how they're used, whether they're good or evil. And so I think that that, like I just wanted to point that out that part of the consequence of binary thinking is that we line all of the like binaries of one together on one side and all the binaries of the other on the other side. That's part of how we end up with the problems of race in america where you know, white, straight, christian aligns on sort of good and desirable, and black and queer and not christian ends up on the other side. But all of like there's no merit or demerit in either side and this film doesn't necessarily help with that Right, because we see that the Skeks were anything other than pure good when I was a child and I think some of that is like the world building is amazing.
Speaker 1:The script is not great in this.
Speaker 2:I think that's my reaction as an adult. Yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:And some of it is also like as a child, I needed a line drawn, I needed the thesis underlined that the mystics are not using their nature to improve things and in a lot of ways they are the same as the Skeksis, even though they are not actively harming. But at the same time, the fact that it bothered me from the time I was, you know, four years old and saw it for the first time that the Skeksis and Mystics become one creature like that has stuck with me and I have turned it over in my head whether or not I got the thesis underlined and as a very black and white thinker as a child and also thinking like Jim Henson was the bee's knees Well, he was, yeah, man was a child. And also thinking like Jim Henson was the bee's knees Well, he was, yeah, man was a genius A genius. So there's so much. Even though this is a flawed film, it really gave me a lot of meat to chew on for years, even though there was a lot that I still didn't understand up to today and still don't understand. So we're running a little short on time, so I want to make sure that I get to another like kind of binary where I feel like Henson was pushing back is ugliness and beauty.
Speaker 1:Oh, so what I recall from this film from being a child, I recall Agra, because I thought she was awesome. I loved that she could hold up her eye oh, her eye, yeah. And then I loved that she knew things and had been around forever and took no shit and like I just really, really liked her. And then the Chamberlain, the mmm and all of that. But also there's one of the Skeksis wears three different eyeglasses down its nose. I didn't really remember Jen and Kira Not that I didn't remember them, but it just kind of glosses over them, except for the wings. And I was thinking about the fact that Jen and Kira are beautiful Like the puppetsets are made to look human-like and they're made to be like high cheekbones and like big eyes.
Speaker 1:They're traditionally attractive, traditionally attractive and they're kind of boring, whereas the really ugly characters like Agra is ugly are just fascinating. And even the Podlings are like they're little potato people, you know. They're not even like as attractive as like Kermit or Miss Piggy. And then all of the creatures that we see, they are all like bell-led, like you know, the beautiful ugliness, like they're all ugly, like the land striders are these amazing things, but their faces look like a giant moth's face. It's creepy. And so I was thinking about why Henson decided to do this. Because one thing I was thinking about, like Fizgig is more expressive than either Jen or Kira, and it's a much simpler puppet. There's a point where Kira says, no, you're not coming with me, and Fizzgig opens his mouth and goes, ah, and it is like you know exactly what that character is feeling, whereas I don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's not a lot of emotionality in those two.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I was thinking about that kind of binary, that duality of beauty versus ugliness, and there is some of that like the beautiful is good because the gelflings are good, but we see the podlings who are not beautiful and they're also good. All of these, the land striders, are good and Agra.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that this is related to another thing that you said, which is that henson's not afraid to scare children. I think it's related insofar as, like, things that are safe and pretty don't teach us very much and they're not that interesting and I think that's related. It's all part of the same aesthetic and understanding of the world potentially you.
Speaker 2:You know that, like there's a reason that the things you remember were the ugly characters and the reason that he put them in there, they're all related. He thinks that's where the interest is, that that's where the lessons are and that's like where like life is. How does that land?
Speaker 1:I think that makes sense and I don't want to talk about the prequel much. I watched one episode of it and I don't want to talk about the prequel much I watched one episode of it and I couldn't keep going because it's about the Gelflings.
Speaker 1:Oh God, it's about genocide, yeah, and so it ends well before the genocide begins.
Speaker 1:But I know that the story ends with the main character deciding not to kill the Skeksis because that's not who he is, and so what that basically does is it gets into these, like these it's not so black and white, you know. Choosing not to kill seems like a good thing, but we know that that will lead to the genocide of his people, and so, like, would it have been better for him to do that? Or is there like, is there a kind of moral cowardice? It asks these really really deep questions that I just I don't want for my puppets, like if it were, like, since it's a prequel I struggle with prequels where we know that there's something awful that comes in later, yeah, so I think that that is really fascinating as well that we get into that with these, the beautiful creatures are the passive ones you know, so yeah, I think that that does fit with Henson not being afraid to scare children, and I think it's also like there is something to the like it's much more visually interesting when things are asymmetrical.
Speaker 1:And just a real quick talk about Agra again, because we've been talking about duality and binaries I have since seen, and because there have been like books written like comic books, written in the Dark Crystal world, because Henson had created an entire universe and just was never able to make anything other than this film. Agra like just grew up out of like the earth and trees, like she just kind of created herself and she is non-binary, like it's not just a choice that she has ram's horns and a beard and breasts, she is non-binary and could be he or she or they, mm-hmm, and so like there is something really meaty in that as well.
Speaker 2:And this, like agra, occupies a both end, especially in this universe, with the strong duality of the two.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yes yeah there's a lot here I was. I was actually thinking it was like this is a 30 or 90 minute movie and I could.
Speaker 2:I could do like three episodes on it, yeah yeah, let me see if I can reflect back quickly some of the highlights. I think you talked a lot about the hero's journey, the Joseph Campbell hero's journey, and also its foil, which is the Virgin's Promise, which listeners will link in the show notes to two articles about those things if you're not familiar with those two archetypes, but they're story archetypes that we sort of use to think about that. We talked about gender as a binary and sort of the like in some ways typical kind of mid-man hero and his amazing kick-ass female sidekick. That's in this movie, which a generous read would be that the whole movie's about the fact that we need to stop separating things into binaries. And it's not that Jen was the chosen one, it's that Jen and Kira were the chosen two. Maybe the chosen ones the ones. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2:You brought the question of sort of the like the duality of the Skeksis and the Mystics and like why do the Mystics need the Skeksis? Like how are the Ur-Skeks actually better than the Mystics? And so that actually got into a much, much larger question about the inherited binaries that come from religious texts very much so, and some of the problems with them. But then also even within that thinking, within that structure, like what is it that we're getting at? One of the things that you pointed out is that, from childhood to today, finally, what starts to make sense is thinking about the duality of passivity and activity and the importance of that. I pointed out the fact that each of these characteristics are in and of themselves, neutral, like money. My finance writing sister says, like it's not that money is good or evil, it's how it is used, withheld, earned, etc. That is good or bad, not the money itself. I use the metaphor of a brick, which can both build and destroy.
Speaker 2:You spoke at length about or not at length, but you you were passionate, effusive about the beauty of this film and the cohesiveness of the world's building. You compared it to every illustration in the book Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs and how delightful that is, and also how you felt, sort of like an insider, like you got it, because you noticed a lot of the things. And that was true for both Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs and this film, where every single sort of still is like rich and alive. And then the last thing that I'm going to say and then fill in, what I missed is your focus on ugliness and beauty and the fact that beauty is kind of boring. And you had brought in the fact that Henson is not afraid to scare children and I suggest that his ugliness is more interesting is actually part of that of not being afraid to scare because safe and beautiful and sort of calm and whatever is boring and there's no lessons there and there's no like aliveness there. What did I miss? I?
Speaker 1:don't think you missed anything, but I do want to just highlight one thing. So one of the screenwriters said that if he hadn't read Seth Speaks, he would not have come up with one of my favorite lines, where Agra, when she meets Jen, she says where's your master, meaning the wisest of the mystics? And he says, oh, he's dead. And she goes hmm, he could be anywhere then, which is a fantastic line, and he could not have come up with it without having read this very weird book.
Speaker 2:Very weird, that's so cool, that's so cool, all right, I love it.
Speaker 1:So next week, what are you bringing me? I?
Speaker 2:don't remember. What am I bringing you? Firefly, Really Next week, Okay yeah. Oh well, next week I am pretty excited to bring my deep thoughts about Firefly and Serenity Talk to you then See you then.
Speaker 2:This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Thank you to Resonate. Resonate recordings for editing today's episode until next time.
Speaker 2:Remember. Pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?