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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Stand By Me: Deep Thoughts About Nostalgia, Mental Health, and Cherry-Flavored Pez
Mickey's a mouse, Donald's a duck, Pluto's a dog. What's Goofy?
Emily and Tracie always assumed their father loved the 1986 Rob Reiner film Stand By Me because the music and pop culture references were a delightful reminder of his childhood. Reiner’s period masterpiece features incredible performances from its child actors–a rarity in movies about childhood–and offers a sometimes-idyllic portrayal of the freedom enjoyed by kids in the 1950s.
But as Emily discovered this week, Stand By Me is not nostalgic for the toxic masculinity, mental health struggles, abuse, and neglect that were normal for a mid-century boyhood. This coming-of-age story is clear-eyed about what was harmful in the late 1950s while celebrating the joy and unintentional comedy of adolescent friendships.
If you have also wondered what the hell Goofy is, throw on your headphones and take a listen.
CW: Discussions of parental abuse and neglect, fatphobia, violence against children
Mentioned in this episode:
Everything There and Around Us
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
Rob Reiner did this thing to before they started shooting. He had the four boys at a hotel for two weeks where they just hung out and they played acting exercises so that they could bond. They became actual friends. There are points in there where they really are like playing off of each other because they've become friends.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Speaker 1:I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1986 film Stand by Me with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you, let's dive in. Know you've seen this film it was on regular rotation at our dad's house, so but just tell me what's in your head about Stand by Me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I haven't seen it in a long time but yeah, it's definitely definitely seen it many times. So what I remember is the dad loved it and like I had, I think, from him explicitly a sense that, like watching this movie helped me understand his childhood. In terms of the actual like plot of the movie, I remember a group of adolescent boys young adolescent boys go on like a long walk to see a dead body. I remember that there's a frame story with a writer at the beginning and the end who's remembering. He's like in contemporary time, in the 80s, remembering his childhood, I guess in the 50s or 60s, and in my head it's a Stephen King book.
Speaker 1:That's correct. That was one thing I remember dad being like I can't believe one of my favorite movies you know came from because dad was not into horror.
Speaker 2:Not a horror fan, yeah, yeah, and like. I remember feeling sort of sad, but I don't actually remember what happens on the long walk to see the dead body. Train tracks feature, I think. And then I I have very clear memory of the sort of frame story author standing up from his typewriter and like walking away from it, like, and like the last words being like something like I. I never had friends like that. Again, jesus does anybody. I don't know why that stands on my head, but it really does and that's it. That's what I got, that's what I. But why are we talking about it today?
Speaker 1:Well, there's a couple of reasons. Some of it is just it kind of came up. So we have plenty of movies that we watched with our dad that we are revisiting. A lot of this project is about our dad. That's part of it. Talking about it today, in part because this was a film I knew intimately. I knew it very, very well and in fact I remembered it pretty well from childhood. But this was the first time I had seen it, I think since becoming an adult. I think I had seen it in college, so like basically an adult, but still I really resonated with the kids. This is the first time I've seen it as an adult with children, and my children are about the age of the boys in this film and this is a situation where the movie hasn't changed. But I have and it was a very, very different experience watching this film and it was a lot sadder than I remembered it, in part because there were things that I understood I understand now that were completely outside of my ability, my framework to understand as a small child, to understand as a small child. So I really wanted to kind of explore that and we're recording this on April, 25th April's a weird month because we lost our dad on April 5th 2013, and his birthday is April 20th. So April is a month I spend thinking about our dad. So that's also part of it. Was watching this movie is kind of a tribute to our dad is part of it. And then realizing, like after I watched it, I was like I really should have watched this with my boys, and I think I'm going to watch it again in the next couple of days to show it to them. So that's where I'm coming from with this.
Speaker 1:Since it's been so long and for our listeners, I'll kind of get into years old. In the summer of 1959, the first time I saw a dead human being. It was a long time ago, but only if you're measuring it by years. And so we are introduced to gordon, also known as gordy la chance, played by will wheaton, who was 12 years old almost 13 when the film was was made. He has three best friends. The closest is chris chambers, who was played by river phoenix. Then there's teddy duchamp, who was played by Corey Feldman, and Vern Tessio, played by Jerry O'Connell.
Speaker 1:So it starts off. We meet these four boys. It's right towards the end of summer and Vern comes to. They've got a tree house where they hang out and he comes in all excited. He had been under his porch because he had buried a mason jar of pennies under there at the beginning of the school year and he'd drawn a map for himself so he could find it again. But then his mother cleaned his room and threw out the map. So all year he's been digging under this porch.
Speaker 1:And, by the way, this takes place in a fictional town called Castle Rock, oregon. As with many Stephen King adaptations, king set it in Maine and then the film puts it in Oregon, so they can still talk about Portland. That's funny. I don't know why that's so weird. And he overheard his big brother, billy, talking to his friend Charlie about Ray Brower, the boy from a nearby town who'd gone missing three days before. He was a 12-year-old, and so Gordy and his friends had paid close attention to it because it was a kid their age. So the older brother and his friend Charlie had stolen a car and gone joyriding and come across the body and they were talking about where they had found it. And Vern overheard all of this. They didn't want to report the body because they were afraid they'd get in trouble for having stolen the car. So Billy and Charlie are just they're keeping it to themselves.
Speaker 1:So Vern comes to his friends. He says hey, there's a body, let's go find it and we'll be heroes, we'll get in the news. And so they all agree They'll tell their parents they're sleeping at each other's houses and they're going to walk the 20 to 30 miles to get to where this boy's body is and bring it back so they can get on the news. Body is and bring it back so they can get on the news. All of the boys are excited about it, except for Gordy. He says, yes, I'll go, but you can tell by his affect he's not feeling great about it.
Speaker 1:They each go to their homes to get the stuff they'll need to go to camp out. And that's when we learn that Gordy describes himself as being the invisible boy that summer because his older brother, denny, had died in April in a car crash. And it's clear he's trying to get his parents' attention to ask where his canteen is, and his mother just isn't paying any attention. His father says it's in Denny's room. So he goes in to get it and his father basically confronts him in Denny's room like, closes the door, making it clear that this room is now a shrine to their older son, who is clearly the golden boy. And Gordy's father says why can't you have friends like Denny's? And he describes Gordy's friends as a thief and two phoebes, which is just so gross.
Speaker 2:I don't know what that means. What does that mean? I?
Speaker 1:think he means that they are feeble-minded, or? Oh, so Teddy and Vern are not scholars? Okay. And then there's also it might have something to do with feeble-bodied, because Teddy has a screwed up ear and he wears very thick glasses. The screwed up ear is because his father is very abusive and had held his ear to a stove. Vern is the fat kid, even though watching it now, he just looks like a normal kid to me. I mean he is. The thing that I noticed while watching it is because when I was watching it as a kid, I was younger than 12. And so they just look like kids to me. Will Wheaton's Gordy reminded me of my younger son, who's 11 right now, who is just skinny as a rail. Children come in all shapes and sizes, but compared to Gordy, vern is chunky, but he grew up to be Jerry O'Connell, right, right, it's just, it's a way of being a kid, okay.
Speaker 2:So Gordy's dad is comparing not just Gordy to Denny, but Gordy's friends to Denny's friends. Yes, yes, okay.
Speaker 1:We see some flashbacks where Gordy remembers Denny, who was played by John Cusack, who was like 18 or 19 years old and playing that character. It's clear that Denny was a great big brother and saw Gordy and was the only person in the house who did, because Gordy writes stories and Denny encourages him and wants him to do that. Nobody else cares because Denny is the football player and he has the pretty girlfriend and he's like all conference or, you know, all state, whatever it is, so he's the golden child and Denny's or, excuse me, gordy is the afterthought. They meet up in the town of Castle Rock. Gordy meets Chris. First Gordy is wearing the Yankees hat that his brother gave him and Chris says hey, check it out. And he shows that he stole his father's pistol and he also stole some ammunition. And so they are behind a diner and like, of course they're very excited about it. And Gordy's like it's not loaded right. And Chris is like no, of course not. And so Gordy pulls the trigger and it was loaded and shoots a trash can and they run off. Gordy's really angry at Chris and Chris says I swear, I pinky swear, I didn't know it was loaded.
Speaker 1:They run into one of the older boys, that Billy and Charlie, vern's older brother and his friend, hang with. Ace, played by Kiefer Sutherland as a real sociopath, he steals Ace and then also Eyeball, who is Chris's older brother. So, eyeball Chambers, they steal the Yankees cap. Gordy's like give it back, that was my brother's, give it back. And they don't care. Like the whole town knows that Denny has died and they don't care that they've taken this from this grieving boy. And so Chris like starts insulting Ace but they're clearly so much bigger than these you know 12-year-old boys until Ace like gets him down on the concrete and holds a cigarette to his face and says apologize. And so he does and Gordy has lost the hat.
Speaker 1:They meet up with Vern and Teddy. Vern is kind of the comic relief. He's brought a comb with him so they can comb their hair, so they can look good when they're on TV, when they're heroes and they are talking about what route they're going to go. They have to go through the junkyard and Milo, who runs the junkyard, runs off kids who go through there. But they need to go through there because there's a water pump there. So they go to the junkyard, they flip coins to see who's going to have to go buy the food at a like. There's a local little store where they can get some food and Gordy is the one who loses the coin flip. And so while he's there, you see the storekeeper shopkeeper talking to Gordy, about Denny. He's like shame about your brother. You know, do you play football? He was really good. Well, if you don't play football, what do you do? And Denny says I don't know, or excuse me. Gordy says I don't know.
Speaker 1:When he gets back the boys are no longer where they had been and he's like what's going on? They had always heard that Milo, who runs the junkyard, has this like really ferocious dog named Chopper, that he had not only taught Chopper to sick people but specifically to sick balls. Once Gordy realizes what's going on, the other boys are climbing the fence and so he hears Milo shout chopper sick. And he says I know he said chopper sick him, but I heard chopper sick balls. And so he like runs hellbent for leather, just manages to make it over the fence and then he turns around and it's not a dog you want having chasing you, but it's not the like ferocious hellhound that he was expecting. And he says that was my first experience of myth of reality not living up to the myth. So they end up because all four of the boys are surprised at how small the dog is. They're taunting him specifically Teddy, who is? They call him the craziest person they knew. Who is? They call him the craziest person they knew? So he really pushes the envelope all the time.
Speaker 1:So Milo comes over and starts taunting Teddy, saying that his dad is a loony. Teddy has said my dad stormed the beach in Normandy and the guy starts saying he's in the loony bin. He's loony. So it's clear that his father has some pretty severe PTSD, to the point where and then Teddy takes it so hard that he's like I'm going to tear your head off and like is trying to get over to fight this guy who's a full grown man. And Chris manages to pull him away and Teddy is like sobbing, like he just he ranked on my old man. He ranked on my old man. And the voiceover says I had a hard time understanding why Teddy was so attached to his father, who beat the shit out of him and like abused him always and like I couldn't give a crap about my father, who hadn't raised a hand to me since I was three years old, and that was because I was eating bleach to hand to me since I was three years old and that was because I was eating bleach.
Speaker 1:So they get Teddy calmed down and they keep going and they start talking a little bit about what they expect to find. When they find Ray Brower's body and they start it was still very childlike understanding of it they're like, oh man, what if his body looks like this or that or the other? And again, all the boys except Gordy are the ones who are kind of thinking about this and they're thinking about like the kind of horror aspect of it. Only Gordy really seems to understand the gravity of it was hit by a train. And they get to a point where there's a trestle bridge and they're like maybe we should go down to. You know there's a bridge over the river like this way, but it's five miles down. That way it's gonna be a lot faster to just go across the trestle bridge. Well, when's the next train coming? I'm sure it'll be fine. Well, what do we do if it comes? Just jump, you jump into the river. It's 100 feet, it's fine.
Speaker 1:So Chris and Teddy are ahead. Gordy is stuck behind Vern who is like scared and kind of going on all fours when a train starts coming, and so Chris and Teddy make it to the other side and Vern is like terrified and like kind of like clinging to it, and Gordy's like we're gonna die, and so they run and they just manage to escape. They jump off the side of the bridge just as it gets to where it's on land again, and so it's terrifying. It's a terrifying moment Once they get to a place where they camp, they make dinner, they talk about all the things that were the serious things that you worry about before you've discovered girls, and so there's this very funny scene where they're talking about you know, if Mickey's a mouse and Donald's a duck and Pluto is a dog, what is goofy? You know, it's just this lovely scene.
Speaker 2:Do they talk about the fact that, like Mickey, only wears pants?
Speaker 1:but Donald only wears a shirt. No, they didn't get to that. And there's also Vern says if I could only eat one food for the rest of my life, easy Pez, cherry Pez.
Speaker 2:That's so disgusting.
Speaker 1:So they go to bed, they go to sleep and they are woken up by howls in the night that are probably coyotes. But Teddy starts teasing Vern like oh no, it's Ray's ghost. Ray's ghost is coming to get you. And so they decide to keep watch overnight. And so Teddy takes the first watch. They hold the pistol. Teddy is obsessed with the military because of his father and so he's like talking to himself like Corporal Teddy Duchamp, and they're like would you shut up? We're trying to sleep. Then we see Vern with the pistol. He has the next watch and like every cricket cheap, he goes. It's like pointing a gun in every direction and it's just like it's a really good thing. None of these kids shot their foot off.
Speaker 1:Chris has the third shift and while he is keeping watch, Gordy is having a nightmare and we see it where it's at Denny's funeral, and it's clearly this is a dream, it's not a flashback. But it's also not entirely clear if this is like, if this is his guilt or his belief. But his father turns to him and said it should have been you, gordy, yeah. And so Gordy wakes up and he goes to talk to Chris and says I didn't cry at Denny's funeral and Chris is just really lovely. They end up talking more. The reason why Gordy's father called Chris a thief is because he got suspension for stealing the milk money at school and everyone knows that the Chambers family is bad. It's a bad family and so there's no way Chris is going to escape it. Everyone knows it, even Chris. And so they're talking about that. And Chris says nobody even asked me, they just gave me a three-day vacation. And Gordy says did you take the money? And he says yeah, I did. You knew I did, teddy knew I did, I bet even Vern knew I did. And then they're quiet for a little bit and he says but maybe I felt bad about it and maybe I took it to Old Lady Simon's to return it, and then maybe the money didn't get back to where it belonged. But old lady Simons came in the next week in a new skirt. Gordy's like oh yeah, it was brown with like polka dots, oy, no-transcript. And so the next morning, since Gordy has the last watch, he's the only one up and he's sitting on the train tracks reading one of his magazines when a deer comes by and he has this kind of moment that he communes with the deer and the voiceover says like I thought about telling the guys about it, but I ended up not saying anything. I've never spoken or written about that deer until this moment. Not saying anything. I've never spoken or written about that deer until this moment. They are continuing along.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile we keep seeing Ace and Charlie and Billy. Charlie and Billy managed to keep the secret for a full 36 hours, which is a personal record for them. But then they finally end up telling Ace and the other people in that gang and Ace is like, oh, we're going to get that body, we're going to be heroes. And so they have two cars and they're going to go get Ray Brower's body. And we see more instances of Ace being like just really cruel and awful. So the boys have to cross a field. They could follow the train tracks to get to where Ray Brower is, but it's going to be, they're going to save like an hour if they cross a field. They come upon like the swamp and Chris like pokes at it. It's just like, ok, it's not too deep, we can, we can go. So they take one step and it's like only up to their ankles, and take the next step and it's up to their their their necks yeah, and so they start horsing around and like Vern is like oh, does this make you happy to Teddy?
Speaker 1:and Teddy's like no, but this does, and he starts like pushing him down in the water and they're horsing around. Meanwhile, gordy is just kind of like trying to get across the the water and his voiceover says it was almost an obsession. At this point, I needed, I needed to see that body. Once they get across the water and his voiceover says it was almost an obsession. At this point, I needed, I needed to see that body. Once they get to the other side and they're still horsing around they realize that the lake is full of leeches.
Speaker 2:Oh, I remember the leeches. That was my first introduction to the like idea of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, mine too. And so they like strip off and they're pulling leeches off of themselves and each other and they're all just in their underwear. When Gordy like gets a strange look on his face and like he pulls his underwear away from his body and looks down, he's like oh Chris, oh shit Chris. And he pulls out a leech that's covered in blood and like throws it aside and then faints just falls over faints. A little bit later he's still like he's, he's back to himself, but he is not talking and like just kind of staring off into space. They're all dressed again.
Speaker 1:Chris says I think we should take gordy home and like teddy and verner are arguing with him until like they're almost coming to blows, until Gordy like goes, stop it. And then shouts stop it, not going back, keep going. So they continue on. They get to the road that they know is is near where where Ray Brower is, and they continue along the, the train tracks until they find him and they see, basically just from his knees down and there's like a KED sneaker hanging from a tree and you see, it really hit the other three boys. What it is that they're witnessing, what it is that they're witnessing. They come over and Chris gets a branch and kind of lifts because Ray is underneath like some leaves and stuff like that and lifts the branch up so they can see his face and the voiceover says the kid was dead, the kid was not sick, the kid was not sleeping, he was dead. And like it's, this real, visceral understanding of what it is that has happened to this kid is no longer an adventure. This is real. So Chris says let's find some long branches so that we can make a stretcher for him. And Gordy sits down on a stump and is like, sits down on a stump and is like off again. Chris sends Vern and Teddy to go find the branches and he sits down. Gordy says why did you have to die? And he starts like really just sobbing, like I'm no good and my dad hates me. And Chris keeps saying he doesn't hate you, he just doesn't know you. Which is heartbreaking in itself. And it's this very amazing tender moment between these two boys where Chris is doing the best he can to comfort his friend for something that just there is no friend, for something that just there is no comfort.
Speaker 1:And then Ace shows up with several other, the teen boys. He says we're taking the body. Chris stands up to him and says no, you're not Fair's fair. We walked here, you drove, we earned this. And Ace pulls out a knife. Vern had left at the moment. Ace showed up. When he pulls out a knife, teddy, who is like fearless, is like nope, too much for me. And Chris is like then, fine, if you're going to have to kill me, kill me. So he's getting closer when Gordy shoots the gun in the air to get everyone's attention. So it becomes a standoff between Ace and Gordy. And Ace says what are you going to shoot all of us? He's like no, just you. And he's like you don't have the balls. He's like why don't you suck my fat one? You dime store hood. And he said no, one's taking the body, you're leaving, we're going to call it in when we get home. And because he has a gun and Ace has brought a knife to a gunfight, they stand down and the boys use one of their bedrolls to cover Ray and then head back home. They say they made an anonymous call when they got back to town and then they each went home.
Speaker 1:The voiceover tells us what happens to each of them. Vern got married right out of high school, had four kids and is now a forklift operator. Teddy couldn't get into the army. He tried several times but between his ear and his eyes he was 4F. He's been in jail several times and is now doing odd jobs around Castle Rock. He and Chris did end up going into the college prep classes, because that's something they talked about before how Chris is smart enough to go on the college prep classes. But no one believes he can do it because he's a Chambers and became a lawyer and life took them in separate directions and he hadn't spoken to him in over 10 years and he had just learned that Chris was at a fast food restaurant when an argument broke out between the two men in line ahead of him and always the peacemaker. He tried to intervene and he was stabbed in the throat and died almost instantly and so we learned. That's why he is telling this story.
Speaker 1:So we end with him at his very 80s computer, green font on black, and his son and a friend come in and said Dad, we're ready to go. And he's like what's that? His son's like Dad, we've been ready for an hour. He's like oh, just give me a few minutes. And the friend says he said that a half hour ago and the son says, yeah, he gets like this when he's writing. So that's when he types in the line that you remember I've never had friends in my life again like I did when I was 12. Jesus does anyone. And then you see him go out and meet the boys, have them get into the car and they go to wherever they're. They have towels and clearly they're going swimming and there's something very hopeful about that. Ending Not short.
Speaker 2:Yeah, concision is not exactly our forte. Not good at concise.
Speaker 1:So I want to talk about cycles of abuse as part of this and toxic masculinity as part of this, and like toxic masculinity because what we see over and over again, like the reason why gordy doesn't feel seen, it isn't seen by his parents, is because he does not meet the 1959 ideal of what a boy is supposed to be, right, he's. He's shy and quiet and sensitive, and he's indoorsy. He's indoorsy, yeah, and sensitive. He's indoorsy. He's indoorsy, yeah, and he's a writer and so he makes up stories. He's not an athlete, so he's not an athlete.
Speaker 1:The way that Ace treats the people in his gang, so when he sees the children, he calls them girls and ladies. Consistently. They use the word pussy to denigrate each other. That is constantly what they are saying to each other, and this is something that I struggled with as I was watching yesterday, because the toxic masculinity that we see is not necessarily something I want to expose my kids to, and I was thinking about, like you know, how was this something that dad was okay with exposing us to, but at the same time, it's not saying that it's a good thing, like there are aspects of the toxic cultural norms within both 1959, as written by Stephen King, and then the screenwriters for this film and then the 1986, where it didn't question some of them. But the story is about that moment in time and it feels important to see the toxic soup that Gordy and Chris and Teddy and Vern were swimming in.
Speaker 2:It's also the case that the worst perpetrator of it is the villain right, and so it's not like our hero is, even if he does sort of kind of play with it, because that's what the soup he's swimming in the vitriol is from the villain.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, very much so. And then also from Gordy's parents, who also are sort of villainous, because we see a flashback of a dinner table of the four members of the family at dinner, where Denny is trying to get his parents to hear about Gordy's story that he wrote and they don't care. Like the mom goes, oh, gordy, that's lovely. And like the dad is just like see, you're splitting his attention, he's got to focus on the game. And so poor Gordy only had this one person in the house who saw him and believed in him, and now that guy's dead. And now he's dead and he feels survivor's guilt Right that it should have been him, because, like, the family would have been okay without him, whereas the family is broken without Denny, without Denny, yeah, is broken without Denny, without Denny, yeah. And so that's one of the things to think about, like toxic masculinity.
Speaker 1:I think it's really important that the writer you know Gordy as an adult has a son and it's boys, because what we see at the end is he is distracted, but he's not ignoring his son and his friend, right, and he has made sure to end that cycle by when, you know, when he gets to a stopping point, and even though he is overcome with grief for the loss of his friend Chris, and the way that his father was overcome with grief for the loss of his son. He knows his son needs him and he takes him to go swimming and to make good memories, and so that's something I feel like I did not get as a kid.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I feel like dad did, you know, like dad recognized. You know it's only a moment, but you see, gordy has grown up to be a good father. Gordy has grown up to recognize that you center the children in your life, even when you're dealing with personal heartbreak because he is. He is heartbroken that his friend Chris is gone, even though and he says we hadn't seen each other for 10 years, but I know I will miss him forever. And that is phenomenal. And that also speaks to the reason why Chris is such an amazing character is that it's clear that he is also trying to break the cycle of abuse in his own life. He's trying to break free from what is expected of him. You know, yeah, he took the money, so he tried to do the right thing when he realized, like I don't, I don't feel good about this, and he was betrayed by an adult, right right, which makes then sense too that he became a lawyer.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, One presumes a, you know a defense.
Speaker 1:Yes, and at every point he is trying to stop his friends from making the choices that are going to hurt them. So there's a point where, teddy, there's a train coming not on the trestle bridge, it's before that and Teddy's like I'm going to try to dodge the train and they're like shouting at him get off the tracks, get off the tracks. Until finally Chris goes up and bodily carries him off the tracks and Teddy's pissed at him, like I could have dodged it. I could have dodged it. And Chris actually is just like you know what you'll dodge one on the way back. I just didn't, you know, got to stay focused, and so he is amazingly emotionally intelligent.
Speaker 1:Similarly, like he says to, at one point he is talking to Gordy about like soon they're going to be going to high school and Gordy's going to be going to college classes. Vern and Teddy are going to be taking shop and Chris assumes he is too Gordy's like to be going to the college classes. Vern and Teddy are going to be taking shop and Chris assumes he is too Gordy's like no, I want to stay with you guys, I want to be with my friends. And Chris is like no, don't do that. That's ridiculous. You could be a real writer someday and Gordy goes fuck writing, it's a waste of time. Chris tells him like sometimes I wish I were your father. And so he does take that kind of role with the other boys where he is trying to give them the guidance that they're not getting at home and like protect them from their own inner demons.
Speaker 2:Exactly yes.
Speaker 1:Even though he has Outer demons, outer demons, demons, outer demons. That kind of speaks to his emotional maturity and and intelligence, that he is able to be so giving and so comforting to his friends, even while he's dealing with these horrible things and, additionally, his, his ability to recognize that Gordy is right, that this is not an adventure, they're not there to be heroes. It's really that understanding of mortality is something that I think Chris gets, that Teddy and Vern don't necessarily Gordy kind of did from the beginning. He's never been super enthusiastic about it Because of Denny's death.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's really, it's poignant, it's beautiful, like how this friend is able to provide for these kids what they are not getting, provide for these kids what they are not getting. The thing that struck me last night because, again, as a kid I was watching it and they were older than me because this came out when I was seven and I know I saw it around then and many, many, many times after that and so like they were big kids and then even when I saw it like late teenager, early 20-something, I still felt like a kid. Seeing it this time and seeing how badly these kids are betrayed by the adults in their lives, with the exception of Vern, vern seems to be the only kid who basically he's fine Teddy has been horrifically abused. Chris, we know nothing about his parents except that everyone knows that it's a bad family right. And then gordy, it's kind of malignant neglect, it's not benign neglect even yeah yeah, yeah, and through an unimaginable grief which the parents went through.
Speaker 2:An unimaginable grief too, but they're adults, they're parents Right, they're the grownups in the relationship.
Speaker 1:So the fact that that is what really got me watching it this time, especially as I mentioned, like Will Wheaton is skinny little slip of a thing, as is my younger son, and so like I really felt this like parental sense of like the kid needs a hug.
Speaker 1:Yeah, take care of him, yeah, yeah, I hear that, I hear that and then that's also the other thing that I think really resonated with dad is that dad had two lifelong friends and dad had not super easy childhood, yeah, and with the same kind of toxic masculinity and expectations For heaven's sake.
Speaker 2:His nickname was Butch.
Speaker 1:Only in the 50s could you call a kid Butch Guy, not ironically. Only in the 50s could you call a kid butch guy, not ironically. So that is the other aspect of it is like. I know that that resonated with dad the idea that you can get the emotional support you need from friends that you're not getting at home. That to me this time around was I kind of remember this being a nostalgia film for dad and like it is. I mean in the same way that like Stranger Things is nostalgic for, you know, for the 80s, but I feel like Stranger Things is a little more intentional in it, whereas this is a period piece, right, and the thing is it's not something you really want to go back to like and it feels clear that this is not something you want to go back to, which I didn't get as a kid, right right.
Speaker 2:it's an interesting point about nostalgia, because we think about nostalgia as sort of a idealizing of the past, and I don't think that's what this does Right, like Stranger Things. I don't know if it idealizes, but it certainly celebrates some of the culture, like the music and fashion and stuff a little bit.
Speaker 1:And I will say the music is amazing In this film. In this film. It has an amazing soundtrack. The music is amazing, and I think that's what I focused on and then also the idea that, like four boys, could go off on an adventure which was more something you could do in the 1980s, but you wouldn't have been able to do it overnight. So like I know that there was a little bit of a nostalgia for that kind of like innocent time, of freedom.
Speaker 2:Freedom, and theordy character certainly has nostalgia for the friendships that he had. Yes, I mean, that's like the whole point. Yes, that's the line that I remember.
Speaker 1:Yes, Jesus, does anyone yeah?
Speaker 2:But that's more about like adolescence than about 59.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it really 1959 seems awful. And it really 1959 seems awful. I mean, like that a grown adult could taunt a 12-year-old boy about his father and consider that perfectly okay, well, a 12-year-old boy who we knew was being abused by that man and Milo even says something about his ear.
Speaker 1:He's like your father did that to you and it's just like that that would be considered. Ok, yeah, that a teacher and I'm not saying that that wouldn't happen now, but that a teacher could say like well, no one will believe Chris, because he's a bad.
Speaker 2:So I'll buy myself a new skirt Buy myself a new skirt with this free money.
Speaker 1:Like I, I that aspect of it is like 1959 sounds awful. Let's keep the music there's, there's. Uh, like it'd be nice if we could have a little bit more more freedom for for kids, so they can, you know, have coming of age moments that aren't helicopter parented yeah, although at the same time you said it's a.
Speaker 2:it's a good thing they didn't shoot themselves in the foot. It's a good thing they didn't shoot one another Exactly. I mean that's like the number one cause of death in kids that age today Exactly.
Speaker 1:So, like, yeah, that's yeah, so it. It made it clear how much and I don't know if this is true of all kids who were like children in the 50s, but it was common enough that it resonated with so many people. It is clearly an aspect of Stephen King's childhood and he's, you know, four or five years older than our parents. Like I think he was born in 46. I think, like summer from 1959, he was 12, going on 13. Right, and our parents were nine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is common enough, but this idea that you were raising yourself and that there was, like, the sphere that your parents lived in was different from the sphere that you lived in, which is different from the sphere that the like older teenagers lived in, and ne'er the twain shall meet unless the like older teenagers lived in, and near the twain shall meet unless, like, the older teenagers are trying to kill the 12 year olds. Yeah, that sounds awful. Like I wish that there were more freedoms for small children now than there often are, but like the fact that these kids were figuring all of this really deep shit out without a single guide is horrifying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's almost. I want to call it clear-eyed nostalgia. It needs a different word, something about really taking a hard look at the past, trying to remember what's good, but also clear-eyed about what was not good and conveying that, which you know we don't always do with these sort of. You know, there's several movies that we've even talked about, like Dirty Dancing, which was a bonus episode we talked about. That's like a Gen X touchstone, the movie that was telling a boomer story. This feels like another one, like that, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think that's part of what, like what I'm talking about, with realizing how much toxic masculinity is within this, but it it's not celebrated.
Speaker 2:Right, right, it's just. Christmas story is another one. Yes, it's a similar sort of like Gen X Touchstone telling a boomer story.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that one also has some, you know, toxic masculinity and and and interesting stuff yeah yeah, it's more of a comedy than a drama, but still yeah and that's.
Speaker 1:I think that that's. That's something that we'll see. Each generation and like it changes as as the media changes, the media landscape changes. But there's a reason why, like Stranger Things is telling a Gen X story. Mm, hmm, yep, totally. And while there is humor throughout this story, it is a meditation on mortality Right, and there are multiple times where the boys could have died during this story. Understanding mortality and recognizing that you have to live while paying respect and finding a balance between those because Gordy's parents were not living Right and the boys when they first set out, at least the three other than Gordy were not paying respect, they didn't have respect, it was just an adventure, so like recognizing, like, oh my God, we could have what could have happened to us, what could have happened to Ray could have happened to us very easily.
Speaker 1:Could have what could have happened to us, what could happen to Ray.
Speaker 2:Could it happen to us? Very easily? What happened to Ray could have happened to us. Yeah, very easily.
Speaker 1:Yeah, allowing for mourning and allowing for grief and allowing for recognition of how awful it is that Ray Brower died Like that. He wasn't asleep, he wasn't sick, he was dead. It's something that really stuck with me in the image of the body's face.
Speaker 2:Oh, they show the kid's face.
Speaker 1:They show the kid's face.
Speaker 2:I didn't remember that I.
Speaker 1:I remember the feet anyway, they said the, the train had knocked him right out of his kids and like the, where it just hits you. This is, I mean I've said, real. It's a, it's a fictional story, but like death is real, but death is real, death is real and this kid is really gone and that's awful.
Speaker 2:Before I wrap up, before we hit record, one of the things that you listed that you wanted to maybe touch on was child actors, and that's something we haven't talked about yet.
Speaker 1:One of the reasons why this movie works as well as it does is because the four lead actors are amazing, and all four of them have gone on, with the exception of River Phoenix. Phoenix, whose life was tragically cut short.
Speaker 1:Because he died, have gone on to do pretty big things. So Will Wheaton obviously went on to Star Trek the Next Generation and because of this film was probably the highest profile name attached to the Next Generation at the time. Corey Feldman had a long career. He's no longer acting but he's still in entertainment. Jerry O'Connell is still acting. He's married to Rebecca Romijn, who plays Mystique, and there's a retrospective and I'll include a link in the show notes talking about how Rob Reiner chose these child actors and one of the things that Will Wheaton says is that basically they're playing themselves. Because he was a very shy and introverted boy who was very sensitive, corey Feldman experienced unimaginable abuse from his parents. Jerry O'Connell was a goofball and really enjoyed getting played. The comic relief River Phoenix was this phenomenal actor and he did have that kind of emotional IQ. But he was such a good actor that they, because they were having trouble casting Teddy, they considered giving him that part until they found Corey Feldman.
Speaker 1:Reiner did this thing to before they started shooting. He had the four boys at a hotel for two weeks where they just hung out and they played acting exercises there's like this famous book of acting exercises so that they could bond and they, they became actual friends there. There are points in there where they they really are like playing off of each other because they've become friends. And in this retrospective Reiner talks about at one point Vern has no lines and he's not doing anything and was not doing anything in the scene and Rob Reiner said to him what are you doing?
Speaker 1:He's like I don't have any lines. He's like you're still in the scene. What would you be doing if this you know were really happening? And so like that was really interesting, like because you do have to teach children the craft. Like you know it's a 12-year-old, they don't know. This gets to like. Another reason why this movie reminds me so much of Dad is Dad had strong opinions about child actors. It was horrific to him the ways that child actors were and still are probably abused by the system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exploited, and I his sense was that they just had their childhood stolen from them.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so it's clear to me that Rob Reiner didn't do that. Like Rob Reiner was not, you know, like what they did to Judy Garland. This was not a thing where it's like dance, monkey dance, and I don't know that Rob Reiner, like I'm sure he didn't know that Corey Feldman was being abused. I'm sure he didn't know that. But there is something like really tragic to me about the fact that Corey Feldman was able to play that character so well because he himself was feeling so much anger and despair over the kind of exploitation and abuse that his parents were putting him through. And like I don't have an answer to that, I don't have an answer to how do we look at that when, like that was a smart way to cast the. So one thing Will Wheaton has said this was not the first thing he was ever in, but it was like the first big thing he was in and it's the best thing he's ever been in.
Speaker 2:In your opinion.
Speaker 1:He said that, oh, okay. He said that, okay, okay, and that it's tough for him because he feels like he's been in a sophomore slump ever since he peaked at 12. Yeah, and which I like that would be tough, that would really be tough. Like you know, you peaked before you even knew what you were doing. Yeah, and one thing he said that really stuck with me in this article when River Phoenix died, he was really angry because Phoenix was the one who was supposed to go on and become the Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks, he was the one who was supposed to go on and do these amazing things, like this was the best thing that Wil Wheaton ever did, and that's okay, because River Phoenix was on to do amazing things. And that broke my heart a little bit too.
Speaker 1:Sort of meta with the movie, yes, and that's something that people talk about is the fact that River Phoenix died seven years later and there is this sense that he and Chris Chambers are very much the same person in some ways, and I know dad would have opinions about this, this. Yeah, so there is one other thing that I want to talk about real quick and that is fat phobia, because the film does a I think, does a very good job of making it clear. 1959 sucked. But the thing that is unexamined is the fat phobia, and it's just a given that it's okay to make fun of people for being fat and to judge people for being fat. Do you remember the story that Gordy tells in the middle about Davy Hogan, who everybody called Lardass? No, so he has written this story and he tells it to the boys over the campfire about a boy named Davy Hogan, who's their age but he's like 180 pounds. But it's not his fault, it's his glands and everyone has called him lard ass his entire life.
Speaker 1:And so he plans his revenge. And it's a pie eating contest. And so he enters the pie eating contest and he's there against the mayor, the principal, the high school, the DJ, and they got the actual, because they have music through the Portland station playing often and you hear the DJ. And they got the same actor doing the DJ and used the name. So it's like Gordy is inhabiting this story with real people in Castle Rock and on his way in to join the pie eating contest, one of the contestants, who's a grown man, trips him and the whole crowd is just like hey, lord S, you have a nice trip. So once the pie eating contest starts, he is winning. And then Gordy says but he wasn't in it to win, he was in it for revenge. And before it it started he drank an entire bottle of castor oil and ate a raw egg so that he would vomit.
Speaker 2:And so he does all over another contestant and it causes like a barforama oh yeah, I vaguely, and they're all throwing up on each other, all throwing up on each other.
Speaker 1:Remember that and it's a. It's very gross. It's 12-year-old boy kind of story. It fits, as someone said, it's an 86-minute movie. They spend five minutes in this story within a story. Within a story. Gordy sees people like he sees you know how people treat lard ass. He finds a way to get the revenge and so clearly this Davy Hogan is a stand in for himself, for feeling like he's, instead of being made fun of, he's unseen by the town. But the assumptions built into that story and the assumptions built into the rest of what happens in 1959 are not very sensitive, are very fatphobic, which I didn't, you know, I didn't see as a kid. To remake this movie today, which I don't think we should do because it's a masterpiece we would change, because that is an aspect of our culture that we now recognize as harmful and it would be like the way that the boys call each other the F word or pussy, as like. It might still be in there, but it would be clear that this is not something to aspire to.
Speaker 1:The clear that this is, this is an ugly part of our past right right?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, shall I see if I can reflect back some highlights at you? Yeah, let's. So this film, I think, is it goes into the category of gen x touchstone media that looks back at a boomer story. We have several of those along the way and this one in particular, like for us. It is like it's nostalgic for us, for the guy, girls, because our dad loved it so much. It was nostalgic for him because it sort of captured the feeling of being an adolescent in the late 50s and early 60s.
Speaker 2:But there's something about it that we named that's not an idealistic nostalgia, so it's a nostalgia that I want to call clear-eyed.
Speaker 2:It's a looking back that appreciates the bits that were good and in this case that was like sort of the greater freedom and autonomy that these adolescents were able to afford and also the deep friendships.
Speaker 2:I mean that is the sort of thesis, underlined thesis of this movie is the friendships between these boys, but with a sort of clear view of, like the toxic masculinity the betrayal is the word that you used of adults, of their adolescent children, their own offspring, their students, their neighbors, and the ways in which they did not protect these kids, spent some time sort of leading up to and kind of talking about the ways in which this film gives us models of breaking cycles of abuse, both with Gordy and his son that we see in the sort of present the 1986 story frame story, but also with Chris, who was trying to break himself out of the cycle of abuse as a 12-year-old in 59 and even trying to sort of protect his friends from their own demons and from their parents' sort of psychological influence and abuse which is really remarkable.
Speaker 2:I think it's remarkable even for when adults are able to do that for one another, so that a 12-year-old who was suffering from his own sort of form of kind of ongoing abuse, whether from parents or from the town who knew he was a bad kid, to be able to try and intervene because Gordy's dad doesn't know him, doesn't hate him but doesn't know him. That there's something really remarkable about that and I'm even wondering if it's realistic that we would think an individual could do that.
Speaker 1:I think so. I think there are people who have that kind of EQ, like a native emotional intelligence. The fact that he has also suffered from this abuse makes him like kind of crystallizes that, like sensitive to it. Yes, yeah, I don't think it's common, but there is a reason why, like Teddy and Vern slip away from the friendship earlier. And it's because Gordy and Chris have that kind of sensitivity that Chris turns outward and Gordy turns inward as a writer right, right.
Speaker 2:We also talked a bit about child actors and some of the uncanny resonance between River Phoenix and his character in this film, and also the unfortunate and sort of heartbreaking truth behind Corey Feldman's believable portrayal of this abused boy, behind Corey Feldman's believable portrayal of this abused boy. And then we ended with your meditations on fat phobia and the ways in which this film in many ways is clear-eyed about the things that were toxic and unhealthy about culture in 59 and the ways in which it totally wasn't about fat phobia and just absolutely missed it. So I think that that's where we landed. Let me just think. I think that that captures the highlights of what we talked about. Did I miss anything?
Speaker 1:We talked a little bit about, like the living, even when grieving, yes, and the respect for mortality.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I think that's important. Ultimately, this film really is a meditation on mortality and what it means to live and continue to have relationships while being open to grief and not being shut down by grief. Guilt and the ways in which gordy's parents like exacerbated the survivor's guilt by making it clear he was not as good as his old, his dead older brother. That's a big piece of then. What informs the relationship between adult gordy and his kids, now that he's reflecting on chris's death. So, yeah, thank you for bringing that back up. Cool, it's a masterpiece, if you haven't seen it recently.
Speaker 1:You should re-watch it. It's, it's amazing.
Speaker 2:It's an amazing movie so next week I'm going to bring you my thoughts about a film that probably I won't describe as a masterpiece, when we are going to be talking about splash, where, um daryl hannah is a mermaid mm-hmm, it's where where the name Madison came from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Cool, all right.
Speaker 1:See you then.
Speaker 2:Talk to you, then this show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode.
Speaker 2:Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?