.png)
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Pretty Woman: Deep Thoughts About Bodily Autonomy, Realism, and Who Gets to be Human
“We say who; we say when; we say how much.”
This week, Emily takes a deep dive into Pretty Woman, the 1990 blockbuster romantic comedy that catapulted Julia Roberts to stardom. The film was originally written as a tragic story about awful characters, and many people (including those close to the Guy sisters) lamented the Hollywood happy ending as “unrealistic”–but Emily argues that by giving Vivian and Edward the fairy tale ending, the film offers a feminist blueprint for knowing one’s worth. While the movie does not offer a nuanced view of sex work and falls into the “not like other girls” trope, it does show a woman who claims bodily autonomy and sets clear boundaries without shame or apology.
Not listening to this episode? Big mistake! Big! HUGE!
Content warning: Discussion of attempted sexual assault and death by drug overdose
Mentioned in this episode
Why ‘Pretty Woman’ Should Be Considered a Feminist Classic
‘Pretty Woman’ 25 years later: The good, the bad and the revenge shopping
30 Years Later, Pretty Woman Is So Much More Than A Guilty Pleasure
Response to treatment of sex work in Deadpool
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
So the other aspect of this that is part of the reason why sex workers both appreciate this film and are critical of it is it's not a very realistic portrayal of sex work, in part because Julia Roberts is freaking Julia Roberts. So if she had been a plain looking woman who went into prostitution, none of this would have happened.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know what's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Speaker 1:I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1990 film Pretty Woman with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, and with you, let's get started. So, Trace, I know you've seen this film. Tell me what you remember about Pretty Woman.
Speaker 2:It's been a minute, but I definitely have seen it. Julia Roberts is a prostitute and Richard Gere is a rich, pretty boy who doesn't know how to drive a stick shift, which means I didn't respect him from the very beginning. The picture I have of this film in my head is sort of a retelling of Pygmalion, where he fashions I'm putting quotes around that fashions her the way he wants her and then falls in love with her, which, just as a chassis, is kind of gross, at least gendered the way that Pygmalion and Pretty Woman are. There are vignettes that I remember her boot being held up by a safety pin and the woman in the shop being dismissive and snubbing her, and one of Richard Gere's friends like propositioning her after he learns who she is. So I have like these, like kind of flashes, but I don't have like a comprehensive picture of this film.
Speaker 2:It wasn't one that was particularly important to me. I don't think If it was, then that has faded. So anyway, that's what I got. But tell me, why are we talking about it today? What's at stake in it for you?
Speaker 1:for you. So it's something I've been thinking about a little bit lately, in part because we've talked, most recently in Ladyhawk, about realism and how the soundtrack for Ladyhawk isn't realistic for a movie about a woman who transforms into a hawk during the day, right, right. And the reason why this came up for me is because I can recall our stepfather saying, like well, the movie was supposed to end in tragedy where? So Vivian is the character played by Julia Roberts. Her friend dies by an overdose and Vivian goes back to street walking and it's a shame that Hollywood had to put the stink of happiness on it. That's what our stepfather said. That's what our stepfather said, like what a damn shame it is that you know, like we had to have that super happy ending In his mind, the story would have been served better by being quote unquote more realistic and therefore tragic yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I remember because I was 11 when the film came out. I don't remember exactly when this comment when our stepfather made this comment, but you know, I wouldn't have been much older than that and I kind of took what grownups said as gospel, right Right, but it's stuck in my head because I like the happy ending and felt like, okay, well, maybe I have the wrong opinion. Yeah, so you judged yourself for liking it.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and so I've actually been thinking lately about like, in part because I'm thinking like, who gets to decide what's realistic? A story is already a constructed thing, it's already something. That is that's how stories are. We're not watching, you know, people. It's not a documentary, it's not a documentary, and even documentaries are constructed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're still curated, sure.
Speaker 1:And so I got to thinking about that and thinking about what this story does, because it is a romantic comedy that it wouldn't do if it were the tragic film that the screenwriter's name is JF Lawton and the film was originally called 3000, as in the $3,000 that Edward, richard Gere's character, pays Vivian for the week he spends with her. And I actually I don't know because I haven't read the screenplay as it was originally written, I don't even know if it's possible to do that, but I think it would have been kind of anti-feminist if it had been had that tragic ending. That would be quote unquote, realistic, whereas it's hard to say. But one can say that this is a feminist film, like one can make that argument that it's a feminist film, and I actually think I believe it, with the super-duper happy Roses and Rainbows ending that we get. That's why I've been thinking about it lately and why I wanted to talk about it. So let me just kind of remind you because it has been a while since you've seen it.
Speaker 1:So when the film opens, we meet Edward Lewis, played by Richard Gere. He is at a party being hosted by his longtime kind of friend, kind of business partner, or definite business partner, philip Stuckey, played by Jason Alexander to absolute smarmy, oily, icky perfection, to the point where I have trouble seeing Jason Alexander as a good human being because of how well he plays this character and then the fact that Alexander went on to be oh gosh, I've forgotten the character's name in Seinfeld, who's also yeah, I hate that guy, George George.
Speaker 1:Costanza. Thank you, I hate that guy. I can't even be in the same like if it's on the.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hate that guy, George. George Costanza, Thank you, I hate that guy. I can't even be in the same Like. If it's on the TV. I have to leave the room.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like I don't truly believe that Jason Alexander is like that, but he's kind of gotten typecast and so like I just so we meet them. We see Edward is on the phone with his girlfriend back in New York, because he actually lives in New York. He's in Los Angeles which is where this takes place for a business deal for a week and he and his girlfriend are fighting because he expected her to be in Los Angeles with him and she says I speak to you more often, or speak to your secretary more often than I speak to you, and so she is going to be moving out of his apartment and on his way out Edward greets a woman who was very happy to see him, who we find out they used to date. She just recently got married and he said when we were dating, did you speak to my secretary more often than you spoke to me? And she said she was one of my bridesmaids. That's a good line, which I have to say, well done, jf Lawton. Like that is a very good way of establishing this character.
Speaker 1:So he leaves the party. It is a very LA kind of neighborhood, like it's an expensive house, but you know it's these small streets and so they have a valet car park, but the limousine that Edward took is stuck and so they would have to move like seven or eight cars. So Edward takes Stucky's Lotus and says he's driving it to the hotel, and as he's leaving, stucky's like do you even know how to drive a stick shift? And he clearly does not. He gets lost and he ends up on Hollywood Boulevard where Vivian Ward and Kit DeLuca, her roommate, are in their corner, which is like it's by which stars there are they're Carol Lombard, I think and he like stalls in front of them. And so Kit encourages Vivian like yeah, go over there, that guy, that guy will have the rent for us, because it's clearly a very expensive car and someone who's driving it badly. And so she goes and asks if he wants a date. He's like actually I just want directions. She says that'll be five bucks. He's like I have to pay for directions. She's like now it's 10.
Speaker 1:And so she kind of impresses him immediately because she doesn't take any shit, and she negotiates with him and she ends up getting in the car with him and saying like I'll go with you, and he like hands her a 20. She's like do you have change for a 20? And she's like no, it's just the 20. So as they're driving, she's like man, this has got to like turn corners, like it's on rails. And he's like I have no idea what you're talking about. And she's saying like, oh well, you know four cylinders, blah, blah, blah, blah. Have you really seen what this thing can do? And so in the conversation in the car she ends up talking about how, where she grew up, all the boys that she grew up with would like buy, beat up old muscle cars, fix them up and sell them. And she paid attention. And so she ends up offering to drive because he's really struggling with the stick shift.
Speaker 1:And they end up at his hotel it's the Beverly Regency, wilshire, something like that which is very posh. She is dressed for the job she has. So she's like all right, well, I'll take a cab with my 20 bucks. And then she goes and sits at a bus stop bench. He goes to go in and then he comes back and says to her like why don't you come up with me? And they had before established that she charges $100 for an hour of her time. And he's impressed by that. I looked it up $100 in 1990 would be like $330 today. And he gives her his overcoat to wear. And she's like why? And he says because this kind of place doesn't charge by the hour. So she kind of makes an impression on people. They see how she's dressed and they head up to he has the penthouse suite. He tells her he has the penthouse because it's the best, but he never goes out on the balcony because he's terrified of heights. She is trying to get down to business and he's like no, this isn't working for me, how much would it cost for the whole night? And she says okay, $300. He says okay, fine. And so he's still doing some work. She's watching I Love Lucy and laughing and just like as luminous as Julia Roberts is capable of being, like just wow. And so he then kind of like like all right, now fade to black.
Speaker 1:The next morning he wakes up and sees she had been wearing this blonde wig and so now her natural red hair is showing. He gets up and has room service, bring breakfast. And she's trying to get out. She's like, oh you, let me sleep in. He's like, no, no, no, it's okay, stay, I brought breakfast. Have something to eat. And makes it clear like hospitality is fine. And so she's like do you mind if I take a bath? He says, sure, go ahead.
Speaker 1:He gets a call from Stucky saying that Morse, who is the head of the company that Edward is there to take over and dismantle, wants to have dinner with him that night. And Stucky is saying like I'm a little like I kind of don't want you to do that, I'm worried it's going to mess up this deal. You know, like if you say something it's going to tick him off. And he says why don't you take a date and make it a social thing? And so Edward's like, huh, actually that could work.
Speaker 1:And so asks Vivian if she will stay with him for the rest of the week, which is how long he'll be in Los Angeles. And they negotiate that it'll be $3,000. She asked for $4,000. He says $2,000. They come to the middle at $3,000. And then, as he's leaving, she says I would have stayed for $2,000. And he says I would have paid $4,000. He also gives her money to go shopping so that she can have some appropriate clothes to wear. And that's the moment you remember.
Speaker 1:She goes down to Rodeo Drive and goes into a boutique where they run her off. They're very, very mean to her very cruel because of what she's wearing. She's feeling kind of dejected and comes back to the hotel and the manager of the hotel played by Hector Elizondo, his name is Barnard Thompson and she immediately starts calling him. Barney sees her and talks to her and says I trust that there are no other people that you'll be meeting with here in this hotel. So, in a much more dignified way, basically saying it's totally fine that you're here with Edward Lewis. I really don't think you can come back. And then he says something about what she's wearing and she's like I tried to buy clothes. I have all this money and they were mean to me and I couldn't buy clothes.
Speaker 1:So Thompson picks up the phone. She's like all right, great, call the cops, here we go. And actually he's calling a friend of his who works at a local Macy's or something like that, a department store, and says I'm sending a woman over to you. Her name is Vivian, I want you to help her find a dress. And so he sends her to. Her name is Bridget, is the woman who works at the store, who is very kind to her. They had said that Edward is her uncle and Vivian, when she goes, bridget, the woman at the store is just like so I hear that you're going to dinner with your uncle, and she's like he's not really my uncle. And Bridget goes. They never are dear. So once she's gotten the dress she realizes like oh, I don't know how to go to a fine dining restaurant. What do I do? And so she goes back to Mr Thompson and says can you please help me? I don't know what to do. And he's like okay, these are the forks you need. He has a whole plate set up and stuff like that and very kindly walks her through that.
Speaker 1:They go to the dinner. Mr Morse is there with his grandson, david. Mr Morse is played by Ralph Bellamy, who was one of the Duke brothers in Trading Places. Thank you, I lost the name of the movie. He is kind of a delightful old man and David is also clearly like a nice guy who is very angry at the projected takeover of the company. There's a point where an appetizer is served and Vivian's like wait, where's the salad? This isn't this, this isn't. I don't know how to eat this. And uh, and Edward is like salad comes after the dinner and that's when Mr Morse says I can never figure it out either and just picks it up and eats it with his hands and is like just very, very kind to Edward and the Morse's get into an argument. David Morse gets up and leaves and says Vivian, it was a real pleasure meeting you. And then Mr Morse also says I should go with my grandson and good luck, miss Vivian, something like that. So it's clear that she made a really good impression on the two Morse's.
Speaker 1:When they get back to the hotel, vivian says to Edward like I can tell you, like Morse. And he says, yeah, but emotions don't come into it. And she had told him before she doesn't kiss on the mouth. And he says we're the same creatures. We both screw people for money and we both do what we can to avoid getting emotions involved. So the next morning edward says to her like you need to buy more clothes because she'd only bought a dress for that night. And she's like, well, it wasn't as fun as I thought it would be to go shopping because they're mean to me, and he's like they were. What now? And he says to her stores aren't nice to people, they're nice to credit cards. So he takes her to a small store and tells the manager like we are going to spend an obscene amount of money and so you also need to be sucking up. And the manager's like how obscene are we talking? Are we talking like mildly profane or truly obscene? And he's like truly obscene. And so there is this shopping montage.
Speaker 1:Edward ends up leaving to go to work and one of the salespeople who's helping Vivian, she says Edward would love that tie. And so the manager's like give her the tie. So she just basically takes this tie from the salesperson and then that's when she goes back to once. She is dressed to the nines, carrying all of the packages. She goes back to the Rodeo Drive boutique and says do you remember me? And the woman's like I'm sorry, we haven't packages. She goes back to the Rodeo Drive boutique and says do you remember me? And the woman's like I'm sorry, we haven't met. She's like oh, I was here yesterday and you wouldn't sell to me. You work on commission, right, it was a big mistake, huge, showing all of the packages she has.
Speaker 1:So we then see she and Edward doing all kinds of stuff together. They go to a polo match because David Morse is a polo player and there is a senator there that Edward is talking to who's on the House Appropriations Committee because the Morse company, which does some kind of shipping thing, is looking at a potential $350 million contract for the Navy and so they're trying to put a wrench in that contract so that it's easier for Edward to buy Morse's company. So he's at Polo and Vivian ends up talking to David. He sees her, he's like, oh, come, meet my horse. And all of that. Stucky sees that and is paranoid, thinking she might be some kind of corporate spy, because where the heck did Edward find her? And so Edward ends up telling Stucky that Vivian is a prostitute and Stucky immediately starts treating her like a piece of meat.
Speaker 1:And when they get back to the hotel, vivian and Edward have an argument where she says like I can't believe. You told him I've never felt so cheap. And he says I have a hard time believing that. And she's like that's it, I want my money, I'm leaving. So he gets the $3,000. He promised her puts it on the bed and she leaves and she doesn't take the money. I'm sorry, that was cruel. I hadn't thought about how to talk about us to people and I should not have done that. I want you to stay, please don't go. And she said all right, but it won't happen again. And he said absolutely, it's a really well done movie, apology, I have to say. She convinces him take a day off, which really pisses off Stucky. He also he takes her to the opera, and the opera that they go to see in San Francisco is La Traviata. I'm not very familiar with opera, but apparently it's an opera about a sex worker.
Speaker 1:And when it's finally the day to go meet with Morse, because Morse changes his course, he's like okay, we'll accept the deal, please make sure my employees are taken care of. And Edward says I want everyone to leave the room except for me and Morse. I want to talk to him alone. Stucky tries not to leave. He's like no, I said me and Morse alone.
Speaker 1:One of the things that Vivian has said to Edward is like so you don't make things, you don't build things. And he's like well, I make money. So he says to Morse like my interest has changed. I don't want to buy your company and dismantle it, but it's vulnerable even if I don't do it. So I want to invest in your company so that you can continue doing what you're doing and pass it along to David, so that we can make things together, we can build things together. It was a billion dollar deal, and so that means Edward's company has lost millions of dollars by doing this. And Edward is like kind of just off communing with himself and Stucky shows up at the hotel very angry. Edward isn't there and Stucky hits Vivian and is I didn't remember that.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, he physically remember that, oh yeah, physically strikes. He physically strikes her. Um, she's saying to him like he's he starts off somewhat socially acceptable, appropriate, but angry, and he's saying like I'm really not happy, but you know, maybe if I screw you I'll be as happy as Edward is, ew, and she's like folding up into herself and trying to get away from him and he tries to grab her and she says don't touch me. And that's when he hits her. Edward gets back as that's happening and he throws Stucky off of her and punches him, probably breaks his nose. That's what Stucky says.
Speaker 1:And Stucky's like we've been together 10 years, I've been your friend for 10 years. And Edward says it's the kill that you love, not me. Like I've made you a lot of money, that's enough, we're done. So, vivian, thanks Edward. Edward offers he says I'd like to see you again. And he offers to put her up in an apartment, have a car, have an amount of money available. And she says no, no, that's not acceptable to me. And he's like what are you expecting? And she tells the story of when she was a little girl. Her mother would lock her in the attic when she was misbehaving, and so she would pretend she was a princess, princess Vivian, who is locked up, an evil queen, and then a prince on a white knight came and rescued her.
Speaker 2:A prince on a white knight, yes.
Speaker 1:A prince on a white horse. Thank you, that's a very different movie. Thank you, that's a very different movie. But you know in all the times that she had that dream, that fantasy, he never said I'm going to set you up in a really nice condo. And he says to her like I never treated you like a prostitute. And she says you just did so. She has, even though there's one night before he leaves, she has packed up and is leaving and she says I'm not staying for anymore. He gives her the money. It's not transactional, it's, it's much more like. He gives it to her and says thank you. So there is a a sense of equality there in a way. And as she's leaving she says goodbye to to Mr Thompson and thanks him and he says I hope you come back sometime. And she says I'm going to get a cab to go home. He says no, no, no, Daryl will take you and that is the hotel's limo driver. So you see her back at her apartment with Kit and she gives money to Kit, who we know has struggled with drugs, and she says to Kit don't let anyone tell you, you can't do something, you know.
Speaker 1:And Vivian has decided to move to San Francisco and Kit's like what are you going to do? She's like I'm going to finish high school, get a job. You know like I got grades until I dropped out. And meanwhile Edward is as he's checking out of the hotel. Mr Thompson says to him like it's probably tough to leave something so beautiful, and they're nominally talking about the jewelry that Edward had borrowed for Vivian to wear. But Thompson is clearly talking about Vivian and Thompson also mentions by the way, dara will take you to the airport, but he also drove Miss Vivian home. By the way, daryl will take you to the airport, but he also drove Miss Vivian home.
Speaker 1:So at the end we see Edward stopping to pick up some flowers and right next to that is Kit talking to another prostitute saying like I'm going to have to charge you more rent than I did, vivian, because I'm going to go to beauty school and I'm not sure how much I'm going to be around. So we get the sense that Kit is going to make you know, make different decisions. So Edward pulls up to the apartment, calls out to Vivian and then he climbs up the fire escape, overcoming some of his fear of heights to be the prince, and he says to her so what happened after? The prince rescued the princess and she says she rescued him right back and then it ends with this is a man we saw at the very beginning. There's a man who's just kind of like walking and talking, like you see sometimes in, you know, downtown areas, going like Hollywood. Everyone comes to Hollywood with a dream. What's your dream? And that's the end of the film.
Speaker 2:Hmm, okay, all right, so where do we start?
Speaker 1:So, because we do Bechdel so often, let's do Bechdel passes flying colors, okay. So Kit and Vivian talk about all kinds of stuff multiple times. They do talk about their profession, they talk about love, but they also like talk about, like the rent, they talk about food, you know, and Vivian gives Kit that advice, those sorts of things. Sure, we also see Vivian and Bridget talk, so there's multiple opportunities for conversations.
Speaker 2:So, as a reminder listeners, the Bechdel test from Alison Bechdel asks three questions Are there at least two female characters with names? Do they talk to one another? And do they talk to one another about something other than a man or a boy? So okay, so Pretty Woman passes back down. Great.
Speaker 1:Yes, so that's great. The other thing that Pretty Woman does and part of the reason why I feel like it's a feminist movie is that celebrates the bodily autonomy of women. So at one point early on, kit and Vivian are talking about how they're struggling. Early on, kit and Vivian are talking about how they're struggling and Kit says maybe we should get a pimp, and Vivian says no, because then we got to do what he says and he'll take our money and they repeat together we say who we say when we say how much, and that's-.
Speaker 2:That's their mantra. That's their mantra and that's something that Vivian says when she's upset and she's not able to get it out.
Speaker 1:But when she's fighting with Edward she says I say who, I say when I, and I'll put a link to in the show notes. But I read some analysis talking about the kind of subversive autonomy that Vivian gives to Kit at the end. Because she gives Kit money but she does not put any conditions on it, on it right, knowing, because we we saw at the beginning kit took their rent money to buy drugs, knowing that kit is not necessarily a good bet. But kit has her own bodily autonomy, her own like life autonomy, and so it is her decision what she does with that money. Right, and so vivian calls it the the edward lewis scholarship and she also says she's like we see such potential in you, kit, and kit actually like beams, she's like really. So there is a little bit of the like. All you need is a kind word and some money. Yeah, but at the same time, there is something very impressively subversive about this is for you do with it what you will, and here's why I hope you'll make different decisions than you have before. But you're an adult, so that I feel like is really kind of impressive. You're an adult, so that I feel like is really kind of impressive.
Speaker 1:The other thing that I found really interesting is there is a point at the polo match where Edward introduces Vivian to two sisters, gretchen and Gwen that is very difficult to say and says they have made marrying well an art form. And then one of the two snubs Vivian and the other one says don't mind her, edward is our most eligible bachelor. And I know just a general like someone watching. It is not necessarily going to make this connection, but it really lit something up for me which is really going to make this connection. But it really lit something up for me, which is there is not really a material difference between them and Vivian and Kit, except for time frame. And similarly, when Edward is offering the apartment to make her his mistress, he says well, at least it'll get you off the streets. And she said that's just geography. So there's this parallel and that's why I think it's fair to call this a feminist movie, because it makes it clear that women have these kind of constrained options, for whatever reason.
Speaker 1:Now Vivian's backstory. She tells Edward that her mom calls her a bum magnet and the first guy she fell in love with was nothing, and so it was the second, the third bum, she followed to Los Angeles, and then he didn't stay and so she was here in Los Angeles. She had dropped out of school in 11th grade. No bum, no job, no money. But she was too ashamed to go home. So she started off working fast food. Couldn't make rent, and then she met Kit, who made turning tricks sound glamorous, and so she decided to try it. The first time was awful. She cried the entire time, but after that she got some regulars and she decides who, she decides when. She decides how much. So, considering the way that we see edward's peers treat women, there's something that feels a little more honest about the way that vivian lives, because at least the negotiations are out on the table.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, in addition.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in addition, vivian negotiates with Edward at every point, like she says this is what I will do, this is what I will not do.
Speaker 1:When he offers something she is unwilling to accept, she says no and is figuring something else out for herself, which is just a wonderfully feminist take on it. I read a lot of historical fiction and so you'll often find kept women in historical fiction and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that either and in fact, vivian says if you'd asked me this a week ago, I would have said yes, but she has fallen in love with him and she's not willing to accept anything less than full partnership Mm-hmm, like being with him in the open, mm-hmm. Which is why that's the fantasy of the white knight coming to save her is not as icky as I thought it might have been, because it's this specific woman's specific dream that she said she will not take any less than, and she says she rescues him right back, which I always felt like that was like we got to stick something in here for the ladies, except that we do see that she has made positive changes in his life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she's been rescuing him the whole time. Yes, from you know, from not knowing how to drive a stick shift, to selling his soul, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Yes. So there's a bit of a yes end there, because this is very much like the. It's a manic pixie dream girl hooker with a heart of gold trope.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:And even the it's a little bit born sexy yesterday, Not exactly, but Well, because of the Pygmalion connection that I named.
Speaker 2:Yes yes, I mean Pygmalion is like maybe the original born sexy yesterday Exactly.
Speaker 1:And like she's a fish out of water in you know this high society. But because she's, you know, just so plucky and wonderful, she manages to disarm people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I feel like there's something like you named that while she's watching I Love Lucy and she is as effervescent as Julia Roberts is capable of being, which is pretty fucking effervescent, like there's something about that that is that sort of exceptional like the not like other girls. Yes, like she's a hooker who's not like other girls, which is, I guess, the hooker with the heart of gold trope.
Speaker 1:But yeah, there's definitely a exceptionalism to julia roberts as vivian specifically because if edward had picked up kit right, this isn't how this would have gone right and like, on the one hand, like well, yeah, because they're uniquely suited to each other, because they fall in love, but on the other hand, it's because she's special.
Speaker 2:Right, right. That's what makes him able to fall in love with her because she's special.
Speaker 1:She shouldn't be a prostitute.
Speaker 2:She's in the wrong profession.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:As opposed to Kit, who maybe deserves it. Yeah, as opposed to Kit, who maybe deserves it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now to be fair to the film and Gary Marshall, the director, and even JF Lawton, kit is fully human. We see that Kit is a full human being who is making the best of the situation she's in. So we're not comparing Vivian to a cardboard cutout, yeah, but at the same time. So the other aspect of this that is part of the reason why sex workers both appreciate this film and are critical of it is it's not a very realistic portrayal of sex work, in part because Julia Roberts is frickin' Julia Roberts. So if she had been a plain looking woman?
Speaker 1:who went into prostitution, none of this would have happened, even just as bubbly and effervescent as in terms of her character, but if she didn't have Julia Roberts' smile. So there's lookism to this, and the fact that she's a white woman, a white cisgender woman, is also like. This would only work in a story about a woman played by Julia Roberts. And to get to the realism aspect of it, because sex workers say this isn't realistic. Another thing that I read I think the same article, saying that there is something subversive about the fact that Vivian doesn't have trauma. She has not been sexually assaulted or have any kind of trauma. That led to getting into this, and that was very subversive and I hadn't thought of it that way. It just, you know, showed how someone can fall into a life that they didn't plan because they didn't feel like they had any other options.
Speaker 2:Yeah, can we stay with that for a minute? Because I feel like there's something, too, that like I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this, but there are a couple of public intellectual sex workers who talk about it as like. Like, don't feel sorry for me, this is the life I want.
Speaker 2:And like people use their body for work all the time and like movers, but the film itself a judgment of them as sex workers that, like you know, we understand they made the best choices they could, but like we wish they didn't have to make this choice and my sense from sex worker advocates is like that that attitude actually is less than helpful.
Speaker 2:Like sex work is work and like if you don't like it, don't do it, but don't shit on people who actually do find it fulfilling for whatever reason, and I think that next level is missing, which maybe in 1990 is too much to ask for, yeah, but I do think it's like worth kind of naming.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It's not just that we need to remember that sex workers are people, it's also that it's a literature to make choice for occupation.
Speaker 1:And the only mainstream film that I can think of that has done that and that I know sex workers actually really appreciate is Deadpool, because Deadpool's girlfriend, vanessa, is a sex worker and I remember reading something talking about how, after he disappears, she stops specifically turning tricks. She's doing other types of sex work. I think she's dancing and this essay I read was saying like, yeah, if you're in an emotionally vulnerable place, sex work is kind of like the original emotional labor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:And the idea that, like she could turn tricks while she was and I don't know if that's an appropriate word term to use, but I'm trying to. So my apologies if that is offensive, but the fact that she did that while she was with Wade and then stopped when he went away and she thought he was dead makes sense and is not any kind of like weird situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, it makes sense psychologically.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah, situation, yeah, sure it makes sense psychologically. Yes, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, and that's part of the reason and this is one of the things that sex worker advocates are big on decriminalizing it and making it legal is because there are a lot of vulnerable people who have been trafficked or otherwise fallen into sex work that they don't want. But they're not the criminals. Yes, and the thing is like that happens because it's not a legitimate way to work. It wouldn't happen.
Speaker 2:If it were legal as much as much. Sure, we're running a little short on time. I know I sort of interrupted you. You were talking about realism and the fact that Vivian doesn't have any sexual trauma. I feel like being locked in the attic is kind of traumatic.
Speaker 1:Yes, but she doesn't have any sexual trauma that we know of, and that that was subvers. It's unlikely that Vivian would be a pretty white woman. That's not realistic. So this is already a fairy tale. It's a modern fairy tale, but it's a fairy tale and there's plenty of rags to riches. Beautiful young, impoverished young woman is rescued by a rich man, and so that's part of the reason why I feel like if this film had been created as the gritty drama that JF Lawton had originally written, it would not be a feminist film. Because, yes, it's a fairy tale and fairy tales are generally kind of anti-feminist, but what we have is a fairy tale that humanizes something that was very much demonized in 1990, to the point where conservatives and critics will say like it glamorizes prostitution. And while it's not a very realistic point of view of prostitution, early on we see Vivian, see a colleague, skinny Marie, dead in a dumpster. Oh, probably an overdose, it's not clear exactly what happened to her, so like no, this does not glamorize prostitution, it shows it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it allows the prostitutes to be human.
Speaker 1:Yes, and smart, as effervescent as Julia Roberts can be yes, and also savvy, like having the negotiation ability. And like recognizing her worth, even in a way that people find difficult to accept, like recognizing your worth in terms of per hour. Feels icky if we don't think of sex work as work, so that I think is pretty subversive. So that I think is pretty subversive. And then the fact that it has a happy ending means that we get to see a woman demanding what she's worth and getting it. If it had been a gritty drama where apparently he like in the original version, Edward threw the $3,000 into the gutter after she got out of the car.
Speaker 1:So way to metaphor there, jf. So if we had had that, it would have just been reinforcing the idea that sex work is not real work, which this already kind of does but like reinforcing that she's not worth that money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she's not worth. She's not human, she doesn't deserve a happy ending.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah and so like. Why is that?
Speaker 2:Better. Better, and if that's realistic why, right Like I think, what our stepdad Wavalu was getting at was that it's more statistically likely that Kit dies of an overdose and Vivian continues to walk the street. More statistically likely, but this isn't statistics, it's a story. It's a story, yeah, and there are lessons that we're trying to convey, and by doing so, we're also like helping to co-create the future in terms of what stories we can tell in the future.
Speaker 1:Yes, and by doing this, you and I, as like 11 and 14-year-olds, see a woman standing up for what she deserves and not allowing herself to be shamed for decisions she's made.
Speaker 2:Right, right, which is pretty great.
Speaker 1:There's a reason why women love this movie.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, yeah before we started recording. One of the things that you told me that you wanted to talk about here, that we haven't quite gotten to, is what we've danced around. It is capitalism, materialism, and who gets to be human. So can I invite you to talk about that a bit?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So this is a very late 80s, early 90s film in that there is, like this, overarching consumerism throughout. Now there are some little pushbacks. So when Vivian asks Edward what he does originally, she's like I bet you're a lawyer. And he says why? And she says you've got that sharp, useless look around you. And she's not wrong because he doesn't make anything or build anything. And Edward even says stores aren't nice to people, they're nice to credit cards.
Speaker 1:Kit visits Vivian while she's all dressed up at one point and Vivian says like you know, it's really easy to clean up, nice when you got money. But the moment that you remember is the shopping spree and then her getting her revenge on the snooty boutique. And you know there's a couple of ways of looking at that Like. On the one hand there's the like. It's the like, money solves everything. Hand, it's the like, money solves everything. But on the other, there is the like you're judging someone based on what they look like. And it's sweet to give them their comeuppance for judging you. But over and over again, when people were like noticing Vivianian because she's blossomed into this high society lady, it's all trappings because she's the same person, right that she was in the cut out. You know, peekaboo dress with the, with the blonde wig and the the thigh high heat um boots. She's just in trappings that society thinks are more acceptable and that doesn't feel great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's sort of, especially if I put my Pygmalion on it again. Like in Pygmalion, it was a sculpture that came to life, so it was marble that became human. But Vivian, prior to the good clothes, was not marble. She was human yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and even seeing how, when Kit comes to see Vivian at the hotel, the way that Mr Thompson treats Kit. He is always very dignified and polite, but he calls Vivian in her room and will not let Kit go up to see her until Vivian acknowledges yes, that's my friend, I asked her to come and so that's part of the like. Who gets to be human. Kit doesn't really get to have the same kind of like.
Speaker 2:I hope you come back sometime, that Mr.
Speaker 1:Thompson gives, and it's the not like other girls. There's a gatekeeping and she's managed to get through the gate. Yes, mm-hmm, in addition to being a sex worker, if she were black, if she were disabled, if she were not cisgender, that gate would have been kept closed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no matter how much Edward would have liked her, how effervescent she was. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because Mr Thompson makes it clear that he is accepting Vivian there, because Edward is a very special client Right. In fact he's a friend Right, and we let things go with friends that we don't with clients. And so money, money allows her to be human.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And then she wins people over, so that doesn't feel great. Yeah, that's kind of disturbing. That really doesn't feel great yeah, that's kind of disturbing that really doesn't feel great, but it's also like it's a product of its time.
Speaker 2:Sure, I mean, that's what we got in 80s and early 90s movies yeah and we see like stucky, very clearly taken down because he refuses to see vivian as human yeah, and and it sounds like edward actually even sort of says you don't even see me as human. I just make you a lot of money and that's why you like me, yes, so but that also that means stucky is abusive because he doesn't see it.
Speaker 1:Everyone's an npc to him, everyone's a non-playerplayer character and I appreciate the film having that in there. Because that's the other aspect that I think is really kind of subversive is it makes it clear that Stucky's abuse is his problem. He is a monster.
Speaker 2:It's not because Vivian has done something wrong or has put herself in a vulnerable position because of what she wore or any of those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and like that kind of reinforces, the we say who we say when we say how much so. That was something that I needed to see as a young teenager and that I think that the mainstream audiences needed to see and have a a way of looking at sex work and abusive sex workers that puts the onus on the abusers yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and doesn't blame the victims yes, yeah, it is something where, like edward saves her in that moment because he he gets home or gets back to the hotel in time and pulls him off of her, which is also like that's.
Speaker 1:I texted you while I was watching. Going like this is actually pretty disturbing because if he hadn't gotten back at that time, saki would have raped her. He would have. It's very, very clear and I mean talk about realistic, like I always do want to see women get themselves out of like situations like that, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can in films Like that actually is very realistic that it would and actually just now occurring to me, probably part of the reason- why she's going to San. Francisco.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, stucky knows she lives in Hollywood, he knows that she walks Hollywood Boulevard, so she needs to get out.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, we are really running short on time, so is there any final insights that you want to share before I wrap up?
Speaker 1:I just want to like I think this movie it was a touchstone and I think that it's like we've talked about other movies before, where we needed this to get Vanessa and Deadpool. Yeah, and I know that when I first learned about sex worker advocacy it surprised me because I didn't really. I had imbibed the cultural conditioning that sex work is shameful and that's, you know, only vulnerable people who have no other choice have no other choice, uh, fall into it and no one would choose to do that. You know like it's horrible and you know, taints you forever bullshit. And I'm not going to say that this movie like allowed me to take in the sex worker advocacy that I read like that I wouldn't have been able to if I hadn't seen this movie, but it it gave me a give me a place Like a foothold.
Speaker 2:Yeah, give me a foothold.
Speaker 1:So when I was reading that and feeling surprised like I could think back to like well, wait a minute, I love that movie in a lot of ways. I love the happy ending that she got, even though at the time I was just like it's anti-feminist because he's a white knight, even though actually no, it's, it's not. And same as any kind of film about marginalized groups, since it's the only movie that has a sex worker as the main character, as the titular character. We don't have like another woman going like yeah, I don't want to be your mistress, I don't want any of that. I'm taking the three thousand dollars and and I'm going to invest in blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:Make my own happy ending. Yeah, like trading places, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, we are out of time so let me see if I can very quickly just hit the high notes. So this movie was an incremental progress in terms of humanizing sex workers and sex work and sort of appropriately assigning blame when there is abuse of sex workers to the abusers. Julia Roberts inhabited this sex worker character with all of the effervescence that that actress is capable of giving and so really made her human. And your point, the other sex worker in the movie, kit, is also fully human. So we see there's a little bit of a give and take insofar as Vivian is not like other girls, but the other girls are also human, even though the gates probably would stay closed for them.
Speaker 2:This film does pass Bechdel well many, many times. I mean, you pointed to the fact that there's like there are those, including people who are close to us, who felt that it was unrealistic because there was a happy ending, and you pointed out, like want to ask the question, like what is realism? Because it's not realistic that she would have been gorgeous and white and able-bodied and all of those things. You also pointed out that like it's a story, it's already a fairy tale, and so a desire for realism insofar as statistically sound like the actuarial table or whatever for this person like is not actually why is that a thing that we would value? You also talked about the focus on money as like the solution for everything and the ways in which money actually is the key for Julia Roberts becoming sort of more human in the eyes of all the other characters and therefore the audience, and how kind of icky that is. Because she's Vivian is the same person. She is not unlike in the Pygmalion story on which the chassis on which this is built. She was not a hunk of marble last week. She was a human being and she's still a human being, and so that kind of tension you named some of the tropes that we see here are not like other girls. The specific version of that is the hooker with a heart of gold, because it is sort of a Pygmalion story and she's a fish out of water. She's also sort of born sexy yesterday and all that comes with that, both the sort of naivete but also the wisdom that we get with born sexy yesterday.
Speaker 2:This film gave us Jason Alexander's typecasting as this really monstrous person who views every single human being in the world.
Speaker 2:As a non-player character, he is the only real human being and therefore he is abusive of everyone, including his friend Edward, but physically abusive of Vivian.
Speaker 2:And there is no doubt in either of our minds that if Edward had not intervened when he did, the Stucky would have raped Vivian, which is really gross and maybe the reason that Vivian needs to move from LA to San Francisco.
Speaker 2:As a whole, this film took a step forward in terms of the way the society viewed sex workers, but only a step, because the movie still sort of views this as shameful work that we really want this woman that we love to get out of, even as it gave her some autonomy around, some bodily autonomy and life autonomy her and Kit that the movie gives them, that they claim for themselves, that they give one another. Lastly, last thing I'll name is that I feel like there's a little bit of conversation, even in your mind, about whether or not this counts as a feminist film, because there are things about it that are and there are things about it that absolutely are not. But I would say what I heard from you is that the happy ending that we got actually made it more feminist than if it had been a so-called realistic ending that was originally written, with Kit dying of an overdose and vivian staying as a sex worker and continuing to walk the street.
Speaker 1:Cool the one thing that I want to bring up also is, um, I mentioned how I don't know how much the movie is doing this, because it's not like underlined or anything, but I definitely saw it that there is the sense that what Vivian does is no different from what Gwen and Gretchen do, who make marrying well an art. It's just geography is the difference.
Speaker 2:Just geography. Right, that was the way that she said it. And Gwen and Gretchen are socially acceptable in ways that Vivian is not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which Vivian would be if she were a kept woman. She'd be socially acceptable in a lot of ways, in some ways, In some ways anyway, yeah, yeah, more ways than she is currently as we meet her, yeah. She wouldn't be run out of Rodeo Drive Right.
Speaker 2:Right, she'd just be whispered about yes, yeah, cool, all right. Well, thanks for that. So next week we're going to take a slightly different turn and I'm going to bring you my deep thoughts about the Barry Levinson film Avalon.
Speaker 1:The Love.
Speaker 2:Letter to Baltimore, so I'm looking forward to rewatching that. You cut the turkey without us, exactly, exactly All right.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll see you then. See you then. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevinvin mcleod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes thank you to resonate recordings for editing today's episode until next time.
Speaker 2:Remember. Pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?