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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Bill & Ted’s Excellent Adventure: Deep Thoughts About Destiny, Work, and How to Engage with History
Strange things are afoot at the Circle K.
In 1989, Bill & Ted’s Excellent Adventure introduced Emily to a baby-faced Keanu Reeves–and to the idea that two easy-going dopes could change the world by encouraging us all to be excellent to each other. In this episode, Emily shares how this surprisingly well-crafted comedy teaches us that destiny can’t be achieved without putting in the work and why it’s important to look at history from the perspective of average people, not just rulers. While the film is a product of its time (sorry, Missy), the laughs, intelligence, and sweetness shine through the future Wyld Stallyns.
Put on your headphones, do some air guitar, and take a listen!
Mentioned in this episode:
A Historiographical Analysis of Bill & Ted
15 Most Excellent Facts About Bill & Ted’s Excellent Adventure
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We both have super-serious personas in our "day jobs." No, really. Emily is a Finance writer who used to be a classroom teacher. Tracie writes and consults on social justice and mindfulness and works as a copywriter and project manager for non-profits. If you really need to see the bona fides, please visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
For our work together, what you need to know is that Tracie is older (3 years), Emily is funnier (by at least 3 percent), and we're both hella smart, often over-literal, and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction and murder mysteries, good storytelling with liberal amounts of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find there.
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
There's just something lovely and charming about Bill and Ted as characters, and I wanted to see if they still were 35 years later, because there's this exuberance, this optimism, this sweetness and joy to them that I remembered and I was hoping that it was still there, and I think it is, although there are some things that definitely didn't age well.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know what's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Speaker 1:I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1989 film Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you, let's dive in. So, tracy, I know you've seen this movie.
Speaker 2:Definitely seen this movie.
Speaker 1:Tell me what's in the furniture of your brain about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's a lot, although it's very disjointed. But I remember a time traveling phone booth that, unlike the TARDIS, is not bigger on the inside, it's just a phone booth and my recollection is that these two guys, keanu Reeves and the other one, alex Winter Him, they need to get an A on their history project for some reason, and so they're using the time machine to like meet historical figures and they bring them back. And I remember, like the mispronouncing people's names, like Socrates they call Socrates, and I remember, at the end, a thing where they're like oh, we can have so-and-so, do such and such, and then like a trash can shows up on somebody's head or something like that, and the whole punchline is be excellent to each other and that like a new religion is created based on that, which is really, I mean, in our current climate, like, I'll take it y'all.
Speaker 1:I will take the excellent to each other. Re-watching this film, I could imagine if it came out today it would be like this is woke propaganda. This film I I could imagine if it came out today it would be like this is woke propaganda, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I mean like that's basically what I got. I remember enjoying it immensely, like immensely in the in the late 80s, early 90s, like just finding it hilarious and finding bill and ted like cute and just really liking it. But those are like just the little, like flashes that I have. I have no sense of an actual plot or dialogue except for socrates and be excellent to each other. Oh, I do remember. No, no, that's Wayne's World.
Speaker 1:That's Wayne's World Anyway that strange things are afoot at the Circle K. No, no, that's part of the furniture of my brain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's all I got. That's all I got. But tell me, besides the fact that it's woke propaganda, why are we talking about it today?
Speaker 1:So a couple of reasons. One I have had a crush on Keanu Reeves for going on 40 years almost now.
Speaker 1:Same same. So maybe not quite that long, but 35 years and started with this movie. Yeah, this is the movie that launched him to stardom. I also there was a point in time in the 90s where it was a lot of it was kind of considered acceptable to kind of shit on Keanu Reeves as a bad actor and so like in the past few years where it's become clear what a like just a mensch he is or appears to be. I'm being very careful.
Speaker 2:I don't want to call anybody a mensch at this point. Like public figure. Yeah, very careful, as if they'd call anybody a mention at this point.
Speaker 1:Like public figure. Yeah, like when he takes photos with fans, he makes sure his hand hovers behind them, he doesn't touch them, so like stuff like that. And he has said I have more money than I can ever possibly dream of spending in my lifetime and so he makes sure he gives back, because what's he going to need more money for?
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's Hawaiian, isn't he? Mm-hmm, yeah, so also nice, right after our Lilo and Stitch conversation last week, to talk about another famous Hawaiian.
Speaker 1:Yes. So that's part of it. Part of it is like I love time travel movies and you know the 80s were big on like we had quite a few. I mean, we had Back to the Future, and then, just a couple years later, this and then this is a movie that I kind of associate with our cousin Chris. I feel like the three of us watched it together.
Speaker 1:There's just something lovely and charming about Bill and Ted as characters, and I wanted to see if they still were 35 years later, because there's this exuberance, this optimism, this sweetness and joy to them that I remembered and I was hoping that it was still there and I think it is, although there are some things that definitely didn't age well. So that's kind of why I was interested in it. And then, having just rewatched it and done a little bit of research, apparently historians are fans of this movie. Oh, that's cool For a number of reasons, although they also have some valid critiques, but I think it's silly fun that actually has a lot more beneath it than you might think. So you know, it's our thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is our thing Silly fun with a lot more beneath Cool.
Speaker 1:I'll give you a rundown of the plot such as it is. Okay, we are introduced to San Dimas, california, in 2688, 700 years in the future of when the film takes place 1988. And we are introduced to Rufus, played by George Carlin, who explains how that humanity has achieved this utopia where water is clean, air is clean, even the dirt is clean, and it is all because of the influence of a band called Wild Stallions. However, they are in peril in 1988 because it is possible they are about to the. Bill S Preston Esquire, played by Alex Winter, and Ted Theodore Logan, played by Keanu Reeves, may be separated if they fail their history class, because Ted's father, who is the chief of police, is going to send him to military school in Alaska if he flunks. So to pass their test.
Speaker 1:There is this. It's an oral report and it's like a whole school oral report the next day on historical figures, and their teacher makes it clear to them if you can get an A-plus on this and pass, but anything less than that, then you're going to fail. So, in addition to Ted's father, we meet Bill's father and his stepmother, who was a senior in high school when Bill and Ted were freshmen and who tells them to say hi to Mr Ryan, their teacher Boy. Yeah, and so there's a consistent like he calls her Missy, and she'll be like no, call me mom, which doesn't feel like what a 22 year old would actually be saying to a 17 or 18 year old yeah.
Speaker 1:So we meet those characters and Bill and Ted end up at the Circle K and Rufus arrives in the time machine that looks like a phone booth, but isn't the TARDIS. It is not the TARDIS and he starts telling him what's going on. And then another phone booth shows up with future Bill and Ted there who come out and tell current Bill and Ted that they should listen to Rufus, that they should make sure that they do what Rufus says, and current Bill and Ted test future Bill and Ted to see like well, how do we know you're not lying to us? How do you know you're really us? If you're really us, you'll tell us what number we're thinking of 69, dude yeah, I remember that as soon as you said it.
Speaker 2:Dude yeah, I remember that as soon as you said it.
Speaker 1:The future. Bill and Ted go away. They get in the not-tardis with Rufus and he takes them to 1805 and to one of Napoleon's battles and Napoleon is accidentally pulled with them back because Rufus just takes him to show them and then he takes them back to right outside of Ted's house and Napoleon has accidentally come with them. Rufus then says you guys are on your own, you need to take care of this. And he makes it clear that the time in San Dimas will continue moving at the same rate. Even as they're moving, they don't have infinite time. They still have to be ready by 2.45 the next afternoon, which is when they have to give their presentation. So they discover that Napoleon has followed them by accident and they ask Ted's little brother, deacon, to take care of Napoleon while they're off gathering other.
Speaker 2:I vaguely remember Napoleon saying Merred, merred, merred, merred, over and, over and over again, and the subtitle not actually reflecting what he was saying. Is that accurate? Well, it did, when I watched it today. It did say shit, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:They then go to New Mexico in 1879 and end up saving Billy the Kid's life and then take him with them. They then go to ancient Greece and they encourage Socrates to come with them. Like is he?
Speaker 2:about to drink the hemlock? No, no, no. Did they save his life too?
Speaker 1:No, they don't save his life. He is like speaking to students. There's like a bowl of sand and he's making and they tell us what he's saying.
Speaker 2:Oh, like. So through the hour, like the sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives. Is that what he's saying?
Speaker 1:Well, he doesn't say that until after. Like they tell him, like we're all but dust in the wind. All we are is dust in the wind. That's so stupid. And like he doesn't understand. Because this is another thing that I think is really interesting nobody speaks english. If they didn't, they don't speak english. Yeah, and so like they, they have to kind of like mime to and, and he gets what they're saying and he finds it so profound, so so they take him back.
Speaker 1:Then they end up in the middle age, in the 15th century. In England. They don't have anyone specific in mind. Like pretty much every other time period they go to, they have someone specific they're going to grab. They don't have anyone specific in mind, and so they ask Billy the Kid to keep an eye on the phone booth and on Socrates. Ted had his backpack and he had a little football in it, and so there's a point. But this is such ridiculous humor. You can see Ted and Bill are talking in the foreground and in the background Billy the Kid and Socrates are passing this toy football back and forth.
Speaker 2:So of a pass in this toy football pack. So Socrates and Billy the Kid are playing catch Cool.
Speaker 1:And, like Billy, the Kid has to teach it to him.
Speaker 2:He has to teach him how to play catch.
Speaker 1:So it's ridiculous, it's so silly. They don't know who they're looking for there. So they ask, like there's a bunch of commoners walking by like hey, is there a person of historical significance nearby? And the guy points to a castle up ahead. One of the two of them says oh wait, what about that gnarly goat-looking guy? Let's take him. And originally this is something I just found out today in the original script they were going to take the goat-looking guy who was named John the Surf, who was just a dude.
Speaker 2:He's just a dude. He looks like a goat to them. That's why they say that yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:And that's not what ended up happening. So they do have a shenanigans. This is one of the longer historical periods they spend time in, because Ted sees two young women on a balcony and Bill says to him like no, we're here for a history report, not a babe report. And he's like but they're historical babes. So they head into the castle.
Speaker 2:They end up coming back to the, to the future with them, like right, yeah, okay, yeah, you'll get there. Sorry, I'll get there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so they. They head into the castle, they put on some suits of armor that they find and they're. They're like pretend fighting as one does as one does. I mean well, honestly, maybe not now, but when I was 17, yeah, I think I probably wanna.
Speaker 2:I don't, yeah, okay, I have a feeling that, like I wonder how historians talk about that, because I have a feeling that it's much heavier and more difficult to dawn say then that's one of the things they say oh really, this is heavy.
Speaker 1:And they make a joke about heavy metal and do the thing that they do. And actually, Ted, because they're like sword fighting they're like, hey, we can fight with swords now. And Ted ends up falling down a set of stairs and, like, Bill follows, is like dude, are you okay? And he sees what looks like Ted's body lying at the bottom of the stairs and another knight comes over and like, pierces the armor with sword. And so Bill thinks Ted is dead. He waits until everyone leaves, he goes down. He's like, oh my God, you know, this is totally bogus, or you know all the things that they say, or all the things that they say. And then the knight comes back and is attacking Bill and then Ted comes out of nowhere. It's in a kitchen and he has this huge lamb shank bone and he bops the knight over the head and calls him a bonehead. He totally boned him, oh my God.
Speaker 1:And Ted explains he fell out of the armor when he fell down the stairs, which, whatever, doesn't make sense, but it doesn't need to, it's a cartoon. It's a cartoon. So and they hug because, like, Bill really thought he was dead. And this is the thing that really doesn't age. Well, they hug and then, as they're hugging, they both say ugh and use the slang the um the F word. Yeah, they both say ugh and use the slang the um the F word. Yeah, Not that one.
Speaker 1:I can say fuck.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:The slur, the slur, no-transcript. Be excellent to each other. Yeah, so they run into the two young women. They are princesses, princess Joanna and Princess Elizabeth. They both have names. They do talk to each other, but only about the crusty old men they are going to be forced to marry that day, I see. So they recognize Bill and Ted and they had been like kind of like waving like hi to them at the balcony. They talk a little bit and Bill and Ted say like're gonna get you out of here. You don't have to marry those men if you don't want to. And they open a door and there's their father, who presumably is the king, who orders them to be executed immediately, although at first he says put them in the Iron Maiden. And they think that is awesome.
Speaker 2:He orders Bill and Ted to be executed.
Speaker 1:Yes, got it and he and he wants them in the, if he wants to put them in the iron maiden. They go, iron maiden, right, right. So they are like at a chopping block to have their heads chopped off. And there are two like masked executioners and there's a cart. Someone found the phone booth and had brought it forward and they were saying like they're blasphemers, they're witches because they fell from the sky. And the executioners bring down the axes and it cuts the ropes that have Bill and Ted tied up and it turns out it going on with the time travel machine.
Speaker 1:The phone booth is acting, it's on the fritz. They end up going I think that's when they go to. They end up going to the future, the 2688, where Rufus is from, and they see the three most important people in the world. That's what they're named and it's three famous musicians who I don't actually like. The actors playing them are famous musicians. One of them worked the E Street Band, bruce Springsteen Thank you, he was someone who's well-known for working with Bruce Springsteen and then two other artists who I'm not familiar with, and so they the three most important people in the world. And then other people come in and they're doing the air guitar thing. And so they're like we should say something to them. And so Bill and Ted tell them be excellent to each other and party on dudes. And they are very, very pleased. And so they get back into the phone booth and they end up grabbing in quick succession Beethoven, beath, oven, right Beethoven, beethoven, genghis Khan, abraham Lincoln and Joan of Arc. And then they because things are on the fritz and I might be a little bit out of order where they go when they end up in 10,000 BCE? Oh, like with cavemen kind of a thing, yeah, and there actually are cave people and they have to fix the phone booth with chewing gum. So they have all these historical personages chewing gum and passing it over.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile, in San Dimas of 1988, deacon is taking Napoleon around. He takes him to a place called Ziggy Piggy where they have this huge bowl of ice cream that Deacon and his two friends and then Napoleon are all eating together. And Napoleon at first is like what is this? And they're like it's ice cream. And he kind of tastes it. He's like, oh, la Glace. And I was like did they have ice cream in 1805? I'm going to have to look that up. And so he's like fighting the little kids for the ice cream. Then they take him bowling and that's when he does the merd, merd, merd, merd. He's not good at bowling, and Deacon and his friends end up ditching Napoleon because they're just Because he's annoying, he's annoying, they're sick of him. I remember that. Because they're just Because he's annoying, he's annoying, they're sick of him. I remember that. So Bill and Ted come back to the current time. They end up in that first scene that we saw where they were future Bill and Ted.
Speaker 2:So they are now future Bill and Ted Uh-huh. Yes.
Speaker 1:And we learn from Rufus at that time that Ted has been saying like, oh, we've got plenty of time, like we've got like 10 hours, and Rufus says, no, you only have two hours because, like you forgot to wind your watch, even though he reminds himself to wind his watch several times. So they go forward so that their Ted's watch is correct. They're on like current Cindy mistime, so it's like 1230 in the afternoon and they go to Deacon like where's Napoleon? He's like, oh, we ditched him. Like what are we going to do? They take historical figures to San Dimas Mall and they give them slushies. And now the specific history report is what would these historical figures think of San Dimas in 1988? So there's actually good reason.
Speaker 2:Oh, so there's a reason for them to bring him, Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:So they are like where are we going to find Napoleon? Where would you be? And we have already been told that in the future, in 2688, there's so many water slides more than any other planet that we're in contact with. And then at one point, ted offers someone a ticket to the Waterloo water park.
Speaker 2:So they're like yeah he'd be at Waterloo, waterloo, uh-huh.
Speaker 1:Yes, so there is this unreasonably ridiculous scene of Napoleon going down a water slide not knowing what it is the first time, and then having such a good time that he's shoving children out of the way to get back up there and go down again and again and again.
Speaker 1:And so Bill and Ted find him. They pull him out of the water. They're like no, no, we have to go, we have to go do this. Meanwhile the other historical figures are causing mayhem, kind of accidentally at the mall. So Abraham Lincoln goes to get one of those old timey photos and the guy says, okay, now I've gotten your photo, I need the fake beard and the top hat back. He's like no, these are mine. Right, the fake beard and the top hat back. He's like no, these are mine.
Speaker 1:Beethoven starts playing a synthesizer and the salesperson says like oh, you should try this. And shows him like different ways of like doing synthesizer music, and so he's like having a great time with that. Genghis Khan is trying out baseballs at a sporting goods store and is like starts destroying a mannequin because it startles him. Joan of Arc sees there's a like aerobics class going on and so she pushes the aerobics instructor out of the way and starts doing things herself. Sigmund Freud, billy the Kid and Socrates are like macking on these two young women One of the best visual gags, because Sigmund Freud is is has a corn dog and like they think that the. These girls are giggling because they're interested, but they're giggling because they think they're, they're weird and geeks, and so they call them geeks and it's it's corn dog, just kind of drew.
Speaker 2:I am so juvenile. Yeah, you're a 12-year-old boy.
Speaker 1:I am. So all of the historical figures get arrested and they end up in Ted's dad's jail. They try to get them out. Ted goes to talk to his dad and his dad's like no, go, pack your bags. You're leaving for the military school in Alaska tonight. And so they're like well, can we just sneak them out? Like what if we got your dad's keys? And this is you know another through line.
Speaker 1:His dad lost his keys two days before and has accused Ted of stealing them. So they're like well, wait a minute. Like what if we could go back two days in time and steal them before we lost them? And he's like well, we can't do that because we don't have time before the report. Well, we could go after the report. So there's this whole thing where they're like okay, I just have to remember that after we're done the history report, to use the time machine to go back and steal the keys and leave them right here. So that's what they do. They break everyone out of jail. And the same thing with the trash can they basically have their future selves? Take care of things in the present?
Speaker 1:They give their report at the very last minute. They get there just in time and do an amazing job making it clear that they truly do understand the historical significance of these important figures. It's not just because I just kind of remembered it as being silly, but like, as they're introducing each one, it's like it's still not quite bright, but like they get that. Like their introduction to Joan of Arc is talking about what she was able to do prior to age 17 and leading France and you know, making the Dauphin, the king and all of that. So they get their A+, everything is saved.
Speaker 1:And they are back in the garage where they are trying to be wild stallions again and Ted says like okay, well, you know, we're supposed to do this wonderful thing, but you know, maybe it's time for us to learn how to play our instruments, because they don't know how to play. Rufus returns with the two princesses, joanna and Elizabeth. He swooped in and got them before they had to marry. The crusty old men then took them to San Dimas Mall and bought them modern clothes and explains that these two princesses are also in the band and encourages them to start playing. And it's terrible. And the very end of the movie is George Carlin looking right at the camera saying they do get better.
Speaker 2:All right, all right. So we're halfway through the episode.
Speaker 1:I was really trying to be concise.
Speaker 2:I know it's so hard, so where do you want to start with this? You already, along the way, told me that it does not pass Bechdel because Joanna and Elizabeth talk to one another, but only about men. So we got that out of the way during your plot synopsis. So where do you want to start with this?
Speaker 1:I actually want to start and I didn't mention this offline but fate versus free will or destiny versus free will? Yeah, or destiny versus free will yeah. This movie actually has some really interesting things to say about that, as does the franchise, because we are given to believe that Bill and Ted are destined to become wild stallions and destined to create this perfect society with their way of looking at the world, which is be excellent to each other and party on dudes, but it's in peril, like there's a possibility that might not happen, even though we know it's destined, because of, like, the mechanics of time travel. And so the reason why I like I pointed out that at that point where Ted says to Bill, maybe we should learn to play our instruments Throughout the film, is this like enthusiastic wish fulfillment for the kind of like garage band guys who, like you know, they love Eddie Van Helen and they, like they worship all this music stuff.
Speaker 1:And so, like the idea of like, not only do we build this amazing band, but this band changes the world, that is wish fulfillment. But you got to do the hard work, and so, like I feel like there's something really lovely and delightful about what this film is saying, which is that even if you have a destiny, you still have to work for it and that there are still changes along the way that can be made and that it's not like they get this magical fix to their lives, but they still have to work for it. Even with a magical fix, it's still not guaranteed. It's still not guaranteed. And even that like if they had just shown up with their historical figures and not demonstrated their understanding because Mr Ryan in the back is probably assuming these are just actors Sure Like no one's going to believe that you're actually, you know.
Speaker 2:Well, also, they don't actually speak much English, many of them Well the majority like that is one issue with it.
Speaker 1:There's only one non-European or American figure, and that's Genghis Khan, and only one woman.
Speaker 2:Sure, yes, 100%. And like Napoleon is speaking French and Socrates is speaking ancient Greek and Joan of Arc is speaking French, presumably Beethoven.
Speaker 1:German. Yeah, I think German Freud speaks English, but with an accent.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, freud should be speaking German too.
Speaker 1:He was fluent in English as far as I understand it. Oh yeah, I didn't know that. I believe yeah Cool and knowledge of that might be coming from this movie. I'm going to look it up and put it in the show notes, anyway.
Speaker 2:so my point is just that if, if we were to take this very, very seriously, mr ryan can't like even get from the actors like so yeah, anyway okay, carry on.
Speaker 1:And so so that I don't know if you've seen the in 2020 they came out with a third one bill and ted face the music. Nope, it's basically the, a similar kind of lesson in that, like you can't rest on your destiny, you really do need, you need to work for it, you need to make the connections, you need to like learn how to play your instruments, and just because there is a good destiny you're heading towards or even like a, good intentions are not going to be enough. Realizing that that was, you know, built into this ridiculous movie was kind of nice. Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 1:And especially because Bill and Ted are such charming characters, like you can even tell that their teacher, who's very no-nonsense, doesn't want to fail them, like he doesn't want them to be in this situation, because these are really sweet, well-meaning kids, just not the brightest bulbs in the bunch and people don't expect much of them. And the one villain is Ted's father, who is looking for this kind of conformity and discipline from his son and not seeing the sunny nature and the optimism and the kind of joy that Ted brings to the world and not recognizing the benefit of that, and so there's this sense of non-conformity. So one of the things that I think is also really lovely and sweet in this movie is that we get to see each of these historical figures as just human beings as well. Now everything is turned up to 11, because it's ridiculous. And you know, they accept time travel way more easily than they should, right.
Speaker 1:But there is something very human in there like, oh, what is this? And just being silly and having fun, like Napoleon's joy at going through those water slides, is kind of delightful, and it's one of the things that I read that surprised me is that historians actually kind of like this movie, and in part because it contextualizes the humanity of major historic figures. And so, you know, obviously in a very pop culture like this is the pop understanding of historical figures. But the fact that we recognize that these figures are people rather than you know just like figures, you know, just something that you read about in a book, right, and so, like I find that really fascinating that this silly movie is able to do that. The other thing that I read that historians really appreciate about this and that I found fascinating is that the scene that I mentioned, when they're in 15th century England and they're like who should we bring back with us? And they ask someone local, is there a person of historical significance? Here?
Speaker 1:There is a type of historical study called subaltern history or subaltern study that gained more prominence after this film among historians and academics, which looks at history from the bottom up instead of the top down. So, instead of looking at the big name historical figures like the kings, looks at the day-to-day life of the common people, because that is just as historically rich and important and interesting as the lives of the ones who are in the history textbooks Sure, the history textbooks. And so the fact that Bill and Ted, who are not the brightest bulbs, kind of get to that and the film originally intended for them to bring John the Surf back with them, makes it clear even that, mr Ryan, their teacher, was not teaching that kind of history. And so they are bringing this level of inquiry and curiosity to the study of history that they haven't learned in school. Oh, interesting. And because it was emerging in the late 80s. So a high school history teacher is unlikely to be using that as part of his curricula.
Speaker 2:That I found really, really cool and also kind of gets to the why it's believable that these two lunkheads would become the fathers of this incredible movement that leads to, you know, world peace and harmony, because they sort of stumble onto, even like, a view of history that elevates, or at least takes seriously the everyday person as opposed to the people who have, whose decisions shape so-called shape the course of history yes, yeah, yeah, so, and like talk about layers. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That, I think, is really kind of fascinating that they were able to do that. Chris Matheson and Ed Solomon were the two writers and it was directed by Stephen Herrick, and Stephen Herrick went on to direct Adventures in Babysitting. Huh, so Solomon and Matheson had actually come up with these characters in an improv class. Oh, interesting. And so now Matheson is the son of Richard Matheson, who is a very well-known sci-fi and horror writer. He wrote I Am Legend. What Dreams May Come.
Speaker 1:That guy, matheson, was a major influence on Stephen King, which is how I know Matheson and why I've read him. And so Chris Matheson did not want to do anything sci-fi, because he feels like it's associated with his father. But as they were planning and writing this film, the history part was just going to be one skit and his father said no, that's an entire movie right there. So they did some really interesting things with this film, in that it is very tightly written and really well constructed and it's a ridiculous time travel movie. So what I mean by that is when we meet Ted's father, he's looking for his keys and he's yelling at Ted, did you take my keys?
Speaker 1:When Rufus is giving us this monologue at the beginning about how great the world is. In 2688, he mentions water slides. When future Bill and Ted tell remind Ted, wind your watch, they don't say why, but we then immediately after see Rufus say like time in San Dimas will remain the same, so keep track of what's going on on your watch and that is something that, especially in filmmaking the ticking clock is really an important aspect of filmmaking and is something you need to work around with a time travel movie because, yeah, totally Because you have all the time you need, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's the reason why you know they need the plutonium or else a bolt of lightning. In Back to the Future, right, like if you've got something that's a time machine that can do anything. You got to find a way to naturally create that urgency. And then the scene in the jail where they're like okay, I just have to remember to do this in the future, because there's a couple other things that they do. They also do a tape recorder of Ted's voice to distract his father and he has to time it to start at exactly 2.13. That is so playful because it is acknowledging the paradox and inherent absurdity of time travel stories while also giving you a satisfying way of dealing with it and also telling the same destiny versus free will thing Because, like, well, we know what happened, because it's like it just happened, but I still have to remember to do it. I mean, it's just. It's really remarkable how much they have like in terms of story construction. This is just a delightfully well-constructed story from beginning to end.
Speaker 2:It feels like another example of what we often talk about, about people who take the medium or the challenge seriously without taking themselves seriously. That's what it feels like, absolutely yeah yeah, they absolutely.
Speaker 1:They took the storytelling seriously, like they knew they were telling a ridiculous movie, like they knew. I mean, like this is silly, but at the same time that doesn't mean you don't have craftsmanship Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, that was like really, really well done. And then, in terms of casting, so apparently Keanu Reeves read for Bill and Alex Winter read for Ted. They didn't know. Like once they'd read for them, the director was like no, no, no, let's switch them. And they didn't know until they got there, like oh, I'm paying Ted, okay, wow.
Speaker 1:And I don't know if Reeves and Winter have any kind of like outside of the filming chemistry or friendship or anything like that but they have this amazing chemistry as friends on screen Now, and that is one of the things like because, in part because this is how we were introduced to Reeves, people think of him as like dumb Southern California dude, because we were introduced to him like this.
Speaker 1:And then we saw him in Point Break, where he also like does not necessarily get the best lines and he also kind of got a little bit typecast. But the thing is, I think this film also shows both his and Winter's skill as actors, because for one thing, they're playing like. I believe they're teenagers, even though they're both in their early 20s. At that point, and you believe that their relationship, their chemistry, their devotion to each other as best friends and their ability to like play off of each other. You know, when one's not sure what to do, and they turn to each other and like it's really, really well done. And so that is kind of related, I think, to the take the craft seriously, but not yourself, because I don't think people recognize until much later in his career that Reeves takes the craft. Absurd, exactly. Yeah, that's really.
Speaker 2:So the fact that he was so absurd is actually proof of his craftsmanship. Yeah, yes, Interesting.
Speaker 1:So. And Alex Winter he has mostly been a stage actor, so he came from, I think, broadway before this and then has done much like a great deal on stage after. So like that's the one thing is people think of. Like oh, this launched reeves's career what happened to winters? And it's. It's not that anything happened to him, it's just that he's a stage actor and I think that's generally like. I think he likes that. Better be my guess, I don't know. So there's a lot to love there's a lot to love.
Speaker 2:I heard you say. I mean you told you said in the beginning there was a few things that don't age well. You named at least one, which was when they use the F slur for queer folks because they hug one another, which is like it's super toxic masculinity. And then I feel like there's also like the something around the Joanna and Elizabeth potentially. Is there anything else that feels like kind of oh yeah, this was made in the 80s, the CGI.
Speaker 1:There is also like the treatment of women. So Missy, the stepmother character, yeah yeah, oh yeah, now it is not as bad as I was afraid it was going to be. So, as I was watching and like I did not remember that subplot at all, and so like the first time you see Missy, she's driving a convertible and she pulls up as Bill and Ted are leaving the school and she goes hey, bill, do you want to ride? And he's like sure, missy. And then she gives him this look, he's like I'm sorry, mom. And so like they get in the car and they go and Ted is saying like your mom is super cute and like do you remember when she was a senior and we were freshmen? And it's not great.
Speaker 1:So there's a point where they go to Bill's house and they're working on. This is before they meet Rufus at the Circle K. They're working on the report there and Missy comes in and says like I brought some food for you boys. And then Bill's dad comes in and Missy kind of leans over to put the food down and like you see Bill and Ted both kind of like checking her out. And then the dad comes in and you can see him checking her out from behind. And then he says boys, why don't you take a dinner break and give some money? And that's why they end up at the Circle K and there's just, it's icky, yeah. And so Bill and Ted have a conversation about it, about like Ted is just like she's really really hot. Remember I asked her to prom and Bill keeps saying, like stop, it's gross, don't tell me. And like, but she's your mom, she's not really my mom, but the actual interplay between Missy and the boys is generally really kind of lovely.
Speaker 2:So yeah, but the subplot like the joke that the dad's a pedophile, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's so weird, it's so gross. So when they get back on the day of their report, they end up in Bill's backyard Missy's watering the garden, and they introduce her to all the historical figures. But they're trying to pretend they're not historical figures. So they're like, oh, this is Dave Beathoven. And she's just like, oh, it's lovely to meet you all. And they asked like, well, can you give us a ride somewhere? And she's like, no, bill, not until your chores are done. So all the historical figures help them with their chores. And then she drives them around and is like delighted to be there at their report and is very supportive. And it's this very weird situation that's weird. So between Missy and then Joanna and Elizabeth, women are like trophies.
Speaker 2:But not no, totally trophies. They have personalities, exactly. Yeah, it's like so. They're more than a cardboard cutout, but they're still trophies.
Speaker 1:Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like so they're more than a cardboard cutout, but they're still trophies, yeah.
Speaker 1:So it feels like Solomon and Matheson didn't want them to just be trophies, Like they were like okay, this is not how it should be, but they didn't know how to go further than just give them personalities.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, they didn't know how to make them actual people with agency. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they didn't know how to make them actual people with agency. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So and Joan of Arc is kind of the only female character in who's an actual person with agency and she is played by one of the Go-Go's. Oh, interesting Jane.
Speaker 2:Weidland so Cool. There was one other thing we're running out of time, but I know you wanted to mention the costume integrity.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you. Thank you for reminding me. So the other thing that I found very surprising is apparently there is someone who does costumes professionally in Hollywood surprising. Apparently there is someone who does costumes professionally in Hollywood, who she uses Bill and Ted as the benchmark for good costuming, specifically the scene where Beethoven is taken from, where he's giving a concert, because all of the costume is historically appropriate and accurate and it is a very short scene and no one has any lines other than Beethoven and so it's just. All these extras are like, perfectly outfitted in historically accurate clothing which is taking the craft seriously.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, cool. Well, let me see if I can reflect back to you some of the key things from this ridiculous and fun little movie. It's fun because in some ways, this time travel movie, this ridiculous time travel movie, is a little bit of a time capsule, with the toxic masculinity in terms of the homophobia and in terms of the treatment of women like better than trophies but not yet fully formed human beings, and the weirdness with the stepmother and the si chi. But at the same time, like in its context, these filmmakers took their craft very, very seriously. They took their story very, very seriously. They took seriously the idea of time travel and the sort of consequences of time travel when thinking about fate or destiny versus work, and the fact that it's not a either or it's actually a both and, and so that's kind of interesting to me that part of taking time travel seriously is actually wrestling with that conversation around destiny and effort.
Speaker 2:Historians like this movie somewhat surprisingly to me, for several reasons. One is that it really humanizes some of these historical figures and reminds us that they're not just like literary characters but were actually human beings who liked ice cream and played catch or whatever, or at least had the capacity for it. Might have, might have Right, could have done those things. They were human beings who had all of the things that human beings have, and also historians like it, because we get sort of a baked in subaltern studies kind of a view of like a grassroots rather than a grass tops, if I can apply that to history thinking, reminding us that there is historical interest and significance in the lives of everyday people, not just the people who were making decisions that had sort of historical consequences, that changed the so-called course of history, and that's a thing that is that was starting to become popular academically at the time that this movie was made. So that's kind of really interesting. I mean, the museum for which I worked for a while we collected stuff of everyday people, not just things that were from the folks who might be household names. So it sounds very familiar to me and for me personally being reminded that that's not a thing that I was always looked at as really cool and interesting.
Speaker 2:I think we named the gender as part of the time capsule thing, so it does not pass the Bechdel test. We see Joan of Arc, the only sort of fully formed human woman, in the cast, and so that's really also kind of interesting that she's an unhistorical figure and she's the only one who got that full treatment. I think those were the key things that you named. Maybe there was one other. Did I miss something?
Speaker 1:I talked a little bit about how this launched Keanu Reeves' career.
Speaker 2:And then people kind of typecast him, even though I feel like this is evidence of his. That was the character he was playing, and so there's a paradox in that. That, like he did it so well that we thought he was not a good actor. So there's something sort of interesting in that, and also the fact that his co-star actually did have a career just on the stage, not in movies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Cool, yeah. And then I want to like reiterate there is something I don't want to say realistic, but realistic in the idea that these two kind of dunderheads could bumble into world peace because they are so enthusiastic and compassionate and sunny and joyful, and just there's a sweetness and a heart underneath of them, of each of them, both in the way they interact with each other and with the historical figures, and just in general.
Speaker 2:They also, as we said, like sort of accidentally, were co-creating subaltern studies while it was being created in the 80s. So there's something to that. I'll just end where we started, which is that you know, if this were released today, there were those on the right who would claim it was woke pop again. So, yeah, yeah, what am I doing next week? Next time it's me. Oh, isn't it Galaxy Quest? Yes, next time I am going to be talking to you about another absurd movie with a sci-fi twist, and that is Galaxy Quest.
Speaker 1:I can't wait. Love that movie. See you then. See you then.
Speaker 2:This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?