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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Lilo & Stitch: Deep Thoughts About Animation, Found Family, and...American Imperialism
Ohana means family. Family means nobody gets left behind. Or forgotten.
In addition to dazzling her with its old-school hand-drawn animation and delighting her with its sweet and funny story, the 2002 Disney film Lilo & Stitch introduced Tracie to indigenous Hawaiʻian culture. The writing and directing team of Chris Sanders and Dean DeBlois traveled to Hawaiʻi for extensive artistic and cultural research and sought the input of native Hawaiʻians, including voice actor and friend of the show Tia Carrere, to write this story. The result is a touching tale of found family that echoes the colonialist history of Hawaiʻi.
Give Pudge his peanut butter sandwich and take a listen!
Mentioned in this episode:
The oral history of the film in Vulture: https://www.vulture.com/article/oral-history-of-lilo-and-stitch-a-hand-drawn-miracle.html
Iolani Palace: https://www.iolanipalace.org/
The blog Tracie wrote after her first visit has been unpublished. Check back and we’ll republish it when we find it.
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We both have super-serious personas in our "day jobs." No, really. Emily is a Finance writer who used to be a classroom teacher. Tracie writes and consults on social justice and mindfulness and works as a copywriter and project manager for non-profits. If you really need to see the bona fides, please visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
For our work together, what you need to know is that Tracie is older (3 years), Emily is funnier (by at least 3 percent), and we're both hella smart, often over-literal, and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction and murder mysteries, good storytelling with liberal amounts of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find there.
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
this little family. These two sisters have experienced trauma and they are doing the best they can, and this representative of the government in Cobra Bubbles is going to separate their family for what is, he believes, the best interest of the family. And I think there's also something like deeply like real and resonant, and like a metaphor and commentary, and like synecdoche, of the imperialism inherent in that actual story arc. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know what's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Speaker 1:Hi, I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 2002 Disney film Lilo and Stitch with my sister, emily Guy-Burken, and with you, so let's dive in. All right, em? I know you've seen Lilo and Stitch, but tell me, what do you remember about this gem of a film? But tell me, what do you remember about this gem of?
Speaker 2:a film. So I've only seen it like maybe once or twice. I really like it, but it's one where I was just a little too old to enjoy it as a kid, because it came out I was already an adult, I was 23. My kids are too young to have it be part of their rotation. So I remember that there's a big tough guy whose name is Bubbles. I remember Stitch being like infuriatingly adorable and Lilo being like I wanted to just hold her and fold her in my that she could in a really tough situation and Lilo didn't mean to make her life harder, but she was and that's about it. That's what I got. I mean, I kind of have a basic memory of the plot, but very basic. So tell me, why are we talking about Lilo and Stitch today?
Speaker 1:Well, we're talking about it right now because my family just went on a Hawaiian vacation and it is set in the Hawaiian island of Kauai and it was really my introduction to Indigenous Hawaiian culture, tangential as it is, and so I was thinking about it because my family just went to Hawaii. So that's why, right now, but sort of the meat of what's in there that I want to talk about are a couple of things. Lilo and Stitch was a film that like tackled some things that Disney hadn't in the past. Like this, there's this family.
Speaker 1:It does not have a neat bow ending, there's no, there is a little bit of a romantic plot, but it's very little. Like it is not the primary driver of of the storyline and it's really about like sort of making the best and the fact that, like life is hard and it continues to be hard. You know, it also did introduce western disney audiences to hawaiian culture in what, for 2002, was an extremely nuanced and sensitive way for 2002. The animation itself is remarkable. It was hand-drawn in the era of like DreamWorks hitting the scene and so, like everybody wanted, in fact, apparently there was pressure from the animators to use CG for like the posters and like the trailers and the and, like the producers were like it's kind of false advertising Cause it's not.
Speaker 2:You know that. That feels to me like what's going on right now with AI writing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's fully hand-drawn and, in fact, the backgrounds are watercolor, which had not been done since, like the 40s, they had been using gouache, which is like watercolor, but more opaque. Watercolor is much less forgiving and this was like a very ambitious thing for them to do, and so I want to talk about all of those things and also the actual style of the animation. It was one guy, like one artist's aesthetic, and he drew these, especially the female characters, like real, like they've got hips and thighs, like they're not like tiny barbie doll, proportioned waifs that we were getting and have continued to get from Disney, and so there's a lot of things that I think are really interesting and powerful. There's also, like, a lot of references to other pop culture, which I think is really cool, delightful.
Speaker 1:So I want to talk about the storytelling and the sort of two stories, because there's a sci-fi story with Stitch and then there's also this very in-the-weeds, real slice of life these two sisters who are going through really hard times and reaching for each other both of those two things integrated. So I want to talk about that sort of storytelling. I want to talk about the animation. I want to talk about the fact that this is how many sort of white Disney audience were introduced to Hawaiian culture and what is good and what is interesting about that, and we'll see what else comes up in our conversation. But let me start with as concise as I'm able to do.
Speaker 2:I feel like that is every week. That is our.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I say it every single week, every week. We're going to be concise this time, as concise as I can of the plot, and actually I watched it now about four or five days ago. I usually watch it much closer to our recording so it might be a little bit fuzzy, but I'll do my best. So the film starts, I remember as it starts. I've seen it many, many times. I love this movie and every time I'm like oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It starts with Stitch. It starts with this trial on the planet Turo, the United Galactic Federation is having a trial, and this trial is reminiscent of the trial at the very beginning of Superman, the movie. And it's also reminiscent of the Senate scene in the Star Wars franchise which happened after, but with all of the lots and lots of aliens in the room. And the trial is of a scientist Dr Jumba Jukaba Jumba they call him who is, like he prefers the term evil genius, but he's an idiot. Scientist is what Captain I feel like that's our term.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can call myself an evil genius.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he wants to be called an evil genius, but Captain Buntu, I think, is his name. I have to look Gantu. Captain Gantu, who's like a shark with legs, calls him an idiot scientist. Anyway, he has created a genetic mutation creature called Experiment 626. And that's this. It's Stitch. He's like a six-legged little creature with like spines, and we learn that he is a basically a biological weapon and he is designed to just just destroy. And jumba is convicted of having created this stitch, who at this point is just called 626. Like the ground council woman like asks, like maybe he's not a monster, like let's ask him to ask it to speak for itself, and it and Stitch says some some sort of curse at them that makes like the entire room, like all of these aliens gasp and this robot like vomits gears. It's hilarious. Anyway, they put him in captivity, they're exiling him. He manages to escape and and like get out whatever an escape pod or something. And they're like where is he going? And they're like oh, he's going to this earth planet, which is mostly water and he can't survive in water because he's too dense. And like, oh, thank goodness, it's fine, but then he's headed straight for an island. That's like the setup. So he's headed straight for the Hawaiian islands.
Speaker 1:Then we meet Lilo and Nani. Lilo it never says it in the film but in the stuff that I've read the animators knew she was six years old. Her sister, nani, is her guardian, is 19. And their parents have died fairly recently in a car crash. And we meet them like we meet Lilo first in this, like we learn that she is this just precocious and like deeply weird kid. Because she's late to her hula class. And she tells the teacher it's because she had to feed Pudge the fish his sandwich and she always feeds him a peanut butter sandwich on Thursdays and they didn't have any peanut butter. And Nani said she should give him a tuna sandwich. And she's like do you know what tuna is? It's fish. That would be an abomination. And then the teacher's like why is this so important? She's like, oh, pudge controls the weather. It's just so weird. And she's dripping wet and the other little girls fall in the water and they all end up on the floor. And then this white ginger kid, this white redheaded girl, is like you're so weird. And Lilo just starts wailing on her, beating her. But you have this sympathy for her because when the teacher pulls them off. Lilo's like I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I won't do it again, I just want to dance, I just want to dance, I practiced. He tells her to wait on the porch for her sister. She doesn't. She follows the girls.
Speaker 1:There's another moment where we see her just being completely rejected, in part because she's so weird. Like the girls all have there's like five of them and they all have Barbies in their hands. And she says oh, are you going to play dolls? And they all put them behind their back and say no. And she pulls out this like handmade cloth doll and like, tells this whole story. And while she's talking about the doll, the girls leave her. Then nani comes to get her from where she's supposed to be. She's not there. We go through this whole thing where we realize that it's just the two of them and we meet bubbles, agent bubbles. He's a social services worker and he's there for a home visit and he is a like big black guy voiced by what's the guy's name? Vim Rains. That's his name, right, the guy from Pulp.
Speaker 2:Fiction oh yeah, Vim Rains.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that guy has a voice and the character of Mr Bubbles like fits that voice, but then has this name and when he introduces himself to Lilo she says your knuckles say Cobra, cobra Bubbles, that's a weird name, he's just like anyway, it's absurd and ridiculous and it does not go well, he makes it clear that Nani is maybe going to lose her and we see a very touching moment. They're fighting with each other but then they come back together and we see their life that fighting with each other, but then they come back together and we just we see their life that they love each other and it's hard and they're fighting, but they also, you know, deeply care about one another and they're going through a really hard thing because their parents are gone. They see a shooting star, which is actually Stitch's ship, which is actually Stitch's ship landing and Nani overhears, listens to Lilo's wish, which is like please send me an angel, the nicest angel you have, because I just want a friend. So, having heard that Nani takes Lilo to the animal shelter where Stitch has been brought in, they think he's some sort of weird dog. He's been hit by a car. Actually several trucks that like received a lot of damage as a result of like running over this thing and all the dogs are like cowering away from Stitch.
Speaker 1:So Lilo goes to pick out a dog and Stitch is the only one, because all the dogs are like up on the ceiling, like trying to get away from him, and he sees a poster. Stitch sees a poster on the wall of like a little girl and a dog like hugging. So he like sucks in his extra limbs so that he only has four and he sucks in the spines that are on the back of his, on his back and neck, so that he looks more like a dog, and he like runs up and hugs her. So she picks him and when she comes out to where her sister and the person at the shelter are talking, the person who works for the shelter are talking. They're like are you sure you want this dog? And like the person who works for the shelter is like I'm not even sure it's a dog and it was dead this morning. And so there's this whole thing. And Lilo's the one who names him Stitch, to which the worker at the shelter is like that's not a name. And Nani gives her the no, no, no, just with gestures. Just go with it. Just go with it.
Speaker 1:They pay the two bucks for the license for the state of Hawaii. Meanwhile, when they step outside on the porch, these two aliens have been sent to retrieve him. There's Agent Bleakley, who's like a thin, like kind of wiggly nerdy, very nerdy. He's the Earth expert. He has one eye. And then there's Jumba himself, who has four eyes and is like big and bulky. They're totally like. Why can't I think of the name of the two comedians from the like turn of the 20th century?
Speaker 1:you know costello yeah, they're avid and costello, like a thin one and the fat one, and you know with the different attitudes toward things. So they're there to retrieve. So stitch sees them and they see stitch and he. So lilo has affection for him. He's just sticking with them because he knows that Pleakley and Jumba will not hurt the humans.
Speaker 1:Stitch and Lilo run into Lilo's friends I'm putting quotes around that word the girls from the hula class and Stitch steals the white redheaded kid's big wheel bike and Jumba explains he's now going to try and find the biggest city and like cause mayhem because that's what he's programmed to do. We see them like ride from edge to edge of Kauai and have Lilo say it's kind of nice to live on an island with no big cities. They go back to Lilo's house and he's like just destroying stuff, like pulling stuff, and she's like stop, stop, stop, whatever. And she says why don't you try and make something instead? And so he builds San Francisco out of her toys and books and she's like nice San Francisco. And then he plays Godzilla and destroys it.
Speaker 1:Hilarity and shenanigans ensue, whereby Stitch makes everything harder. Nani ends up losing her job at like a traditional Hawaiian luau because of Stitch and Lilo sort of says like this is your badness level. She draws like a profile of him and like has like red up to his ears and it's like this is your badness level. And I know it's because you miss your family. I know that's why you push me away and why you're mean to me. And so we see this like. This is really beautiful, like insight into where Lilo is coming from. Mr Bubbles comes back and he's like what's with the dog or whatever? And he ends up getting I don't remember something in the face so that like a lens pops out of his sunglasses and he says I heard you lost your job to Nani. So Nani, he cannot ignore the fact that she has no job, no income. Nani needs to get a job. The dog needs to be a model citizen, capisce. So Lilo says to Stitch Elvis Presley was a model citizen, so you have to be like Elvis. So she's like teaching him how to be like Elvis.
Speaker 1:Again, more hilarity ensues. Nani's looking for jobs, while Stitch is trying to be Elvis and like just like mayhem. Meanwhile we see that like the reason that Earth is protected, that Pleakley, the Earth expert like says that it's protected is because of the mosquito, which is like this endangered species. And we see like apparently Pleakley's alien blood is very appealing to mosquitoes. So he's realizing they're not as beautiful as he thought. And there's like weirdness going on where they're in disguise as humans and Pleakley's like wearing a wig and he feels pretty. And then Jumba's like I want to try, so there's just like a weird gender thing going on there becomes himself because Pleakley and Jumba are taking too long, and the house gets destroyed. And then Gantu catches Lilo and Stitch. Stitch escapes from the holding like cloche that they're in, but Lilo is still in there. And then Nani's like I know you can talk, talk to Stitch. So he talks and so she hits him again. She realizes he's one of the aliens because she's now seeing the aliens and there's this chase scene where they get Lilo back.
Speaker 1:The whole thing ends on the beach in Kauai where the councilwoman from the very beginning, who was the person in charge at the trial, comes to get Experiment 626 herself. So they're standing on the beach, stitch is in handcuffs and like walking up onto the ship and says, just, can I say goodbye? And he. So he goes back and he says you know, this is my family. And he. So he goes back and he and he says you know, this is my family, it's little and broken but still good. And the now bubbles, who was who was going to take lilo from nani, sees all of this and he says to nani, didn't you buy that dog? Or you know, didn't you buy that creature? Or you know, didn't you buy that creature? And so they say Lilo pulls out the license, the dog license, and says I paid $2 for Stitch and he's mine and if you take him, yeah, that's stealing. And like basically, bubbles sort of says to them afterwards that aliens are all about rules, and so the councilwoman agrees to let Stitch stay in exile in the custody of this family. So I skipped a whole bunch of stuff, especially like the Hawaiian culture things.
Speaker 1:At one point Nani's gonna, she has Stitch in her arms and she's like we're taking him back to the shelter because he's a disaster, you know. And Lilo says what about ohana, which is the Hawaiian word for family? And we have heard them before say dad always said ohana means family and family means no one gets left. Where a conversation between the two sisters, where Lilo says are we a broken family? And Nani and Nisha's like no, no, well, maybe a little, maybe a lot, but we're still, you know, we're still good and they, you know it's. And Lilo says I like you better as a sister than a mom and it's just really poignant and sweet. They have a friend, david, who has made it clear he and Nani are friends and he wants to date her and she likes him too, but she just has too much going on. So the very last two minutes of the film are photographs of this little Ohana, you know, including David, the would-be boyfriend, and including Jumba and Pleakley and Cobra Bubbles as well. So we see pictures of them like doing stuff around Hawaii. We see pictures of David, nani, lilo and Stitch all at Graceland visiting Elvis's home. It's just really sweet.
Speaker 1:So that was probably a disjointed plot summary. Sorry folks, you should just go watch the movie if you haven't seen it, because it's really really, really good, it's delightful, it's delightful. So let me start. Actually, we always start with gender, so let me start with gender. This passes the Bechdel test with flying colors.
Speaker 1:There are many, more than two Well, I don't know about many, but there's more than two named female characters. They do talk to one another about things other than boys or men. It like easily passes within the first you know, I don't know 10 minutes of the movie. So that's easy peasy. And it's also like the actual representation, as I mentioned in the, is much more realistic than what we are often given. Like Nani is beautiful, she also has like actual hips, you know, like she has actual real-to-life proportions, which is really cool. So those are some things on gender and even like the romance, like it's clear, david says can I take you out sometime?
Speaker 1:Something like that. And Nani's like you know, I told you I'm just, I just can't, I can't even think about dating right now. Nani walks away because she's at work and Lilo says don't worry, she likes your butt and your fancy hair. Likes your butt and your fancy hair. And she says I know because I read her diary. And david goes she thinks it's fancy. So our filmmakers make it clear that though nani is declining, it's not that his interest is unwelcome, which I think is important, because at some point later, like he helps, he tells her about a job, but they got to go right now. And she says thank you so much, I don't know what I can do to repay you. And he says well, just date me and we'll call it even which the line itself. I'm like I don't feel great about that, but I think the filmmakers did make it clear that she actually does like him back and just feels overwhelmed by her life which is
Speaker 1:makes it a little less unwelcome than the line out of context would be. So that's my like, without too much more analysis. That's where I stand on sort of gender in this thing, on femininity and romance, we can talk a little bit more, maybe about the like cross-dressing for humor with Pleakley and Jumba. We'll get to that. I'd like to actually talk first like because I want to make sure I have enough time about the fact that this was my introduction to Hawaiian culture and sort of how that happened and what analysis and you know what's good and bad and ugly about that. So it's written by these two men, two white dudes, chris Sanders and Dean DeBlois, and Chris Sanders had. This is the same team that worked on Mulan and to their credit, they recognized that this was not actually a story that they should be telling Now, today. I would hope they would like bring in other, like indigenous Hawaiian writers into the actual writer's room. That's not what they did. And also they did go to Hawaii the lead animators and themselves and spent a lot of time for the visuals but also for the culture, like talking to Native Hawaiians, like working with and getting permission from folks to. Like talk to kids, like there's several songs in the movie that feature the choir of, like an elementary school I don't know which island, but on one of the islands. And so they, like the animators, like worked, like, spent time observing these kids. And then the voice talent, tia Carrera, who actually is Hawaiian, which I didn't know. She grew up in Hawaii, she is Nani, I think I knew that. But yeah Well, we've talked about her before because of Wayne's World, but they brought her in fairly early and there are apparently many lines of dialogue that she wrote or that they said how would you say it? How would you say this back home? And so, like it wasn't the writers, these guys, sanders and DuBlois knew that they didn't know what it would sound like and so, to their credit, they did allow that influence and input. In fact, carrera also like helped them find like voice actors who were native hawaiian for a lot of the like extras.
Speaker 1:Almost like, in a very early scene, when stitches run over by these trucks, these guys get out and they're like what, what we hit, you know, and they're talking and the, the cadence and the language is like, like and you can hear it, it is distinct. Like I can remember watching it a couple years ago and thinking like they see, like what we hit, and they look at it still under the fender, and then like stitch's arm sort of falls down and one of the drivers goes we better call somebody, someone like in this, like cadence that is, I think, actually pigeon influenced, but it's clearly not just like a midwest actor, I guess is what I'm trying to say and and that really comes through, like there's a. There's one scene where in the dog shelter, where Lilo's like let's get a lobster, and Nani's like Lilo, lolo, we don't have a lobster door, we have a dog door. But the Lolo, like that's Tia Carrera, sort of saying like that's how I would talk to somebody that I was like short with, like it's a Hawaiian term, know, that's like. And there's another scene where it actually turns out to be bubbles but a car almost hits Nani and she's like watch where you're going stupid head. Which again was like Carrera saying like that's what I would say in that moment, like.
Speaker 1:And so, despite the fact that it was written by these two white dudes, there's at least the air of truthiness, there's an air of authenticity because of these influences of Carrera and other Native Hawaiian voice actors, which I deeply appreciate Today. You know these, 20 plus years later, I would want to see a more wholesale integration of the Native Hawaiian voice and story and storytelling and also, in 2002, not just the inclusion of the input of these voice actors but also the time that I think the folks spent doing their research, doing their research. From what I can tell, the Native Hawaiian reception of the film felt like it really portrayed them in much more nuanced and appropriate and authentic ways than previous Hollywood depictions of Hawaii, which were like dancing on the beach you know it was about a white person's trip to the islands as opposed to centering the native Hawaiians they had actually consulted with Egyptians and hired Egyptian actors, even though it's white people in Egypt as a story.
Speaker 2:And also the other aspect I'm thinking is that willingness to do the research while still being like we're two white guys writing this movie is what got us to hear nearly 25 years later, saying this is how you're supposed to do it.
Speaker 1:I think they were an important step in that process, definitely. The other thing that's really interesting, in sort of like a form, function kind of thing, is the fact that, like these two, this little family, these two sisters, have experienced trauma and they are doing the best they can, and this representative of the government in cobra bubbles is going to separate their family for what is he believes the best interest of the family. And I think there's also something like deeply like real and resonant and like a metaphor and commentary and like synecdoche of the imperialism inherent in that actual story arc, that we've got this Vin Rames voice like big, broad-shouldered black dude Instead of, like they originally were envisioning, like a little nebbishy white guy. In fact they considered Jeff Goldblum for the voice, and so I think there's something like they were kind of playing with it. Still, he is a representative of, if not the US government, then the state of Hawaii government, which is US, like it's not the royal state of Hawaii government, which is US, like it's not the Hawaiian, the royal family of Hawaii, right, and so that's really, really interesting. And then another piece of that when it has become clear to Nani that he is going to separate them, he gives her till the next day and she and Lilo are on a hammock and they're sort of snuggling and she sings.
Speaker 1:Nani sings Aloha Oe, which is she was losing, like that the Native Hawaiians were losing their control over the kingdom. The words in Hawaiian and then in English are like a fond embrace and then a farewell, and it is so poignant, I think, to see that that's the way that Nani sort of is sort of saying goodbye is with this song. That is very much like wrapped up in pride in Hawaiian culture and loss and grief that sort of. We have this agent of the government separating this family and then the way that nani expresses her love and grief about it is through this song. It made me cry forever and now that I know that, now that I know the history and context of that song, it becomes all the more poignant because it's not just about this family, right, it's about the imperialism that stole the land and decimated the culture in this Disney movie and that blows my damn mind, and that also was Tia Carrera.
Speaker 1:Apparently there's an oral history. I will link to it in the show notes that Vulture published about this movie. And so, as they were researching and writing, the writers were like how would Nani do this? Like how would she have this hard conversation to say that we're going to be separated? And Carrera was like she's 19. She's not going to actually say it, but this is it, this is the song. And they said well, tell us about the song, will you sing it for us? And Carrera sang it for the writers. And they're like that's it, that's what we're doing, like that's it.
Speaker 2:That's what we're doing. My level of outrage that Carrera has not had a more successful career that Mike Myers had. When she is such she's a phenom, she is incredible and we like dismissed her as just a pretty face and a gorgeous body. When she is like good lord, yeah, so smart, such comedic instincts, like she's a really good singer, she's a great actress, I mean like yeah, anyway, yeah. So just sending out love to tia carrera.
Speaker 1:If you ever want to come on the podcast, tia, we would love to have you yeah, yeah, that was the thing that I wanted to like make sure that I shared with you. Listener is like that sort of like like microcosm, that this, this commentary, that happened, you know, it feels like almost accidentally right, like I think these guys were just trying to tell a story about these two, this girl and her sister. But you can't tell a Hawaiian story, I think authentically, without that coming in, because that is the reality, you know, like, even like the job that we see Nani lose is in this luau. That's for tourists, you know, and it's ridiculous. Tourists, you know, and it's ridiculous, you know, and like it's there's. That's actually a very sweet moment too, as they're coming home, lilo's, like did you lose your job because of me? And then he says, nah, the manager is a vampire, so cute anyway there's.
Speaker 2:You know just about the, the. I can remember the the first time you you went to hawaii. You were telling me about, or maybe you wrote about it, but about how there were like dolls of hula dancers hula dancers and you were like this would be like if there were dolls of jews davening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I've heard about it, which maybe include that in the show notes. Yeah, that, that blog post that I wrote yeah, I was, because this, one of the things this is coming, this is bringing up to me, is like because now there's this ridiculous conversation about canada being the 51st state and it's just like there, there are people there, and then there were people in Hawaii who had their own governance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and you know so. On my trip just recently, we visited Iolani Palace I'll link to their website as well which is the final residence of the Hawaiian royalty, which is how I know more about Queen Lili Kualani. But one thing I learned in that museum was that when business interests because it really was business interests not even the United States really stole the country illegally from the queen, part of the reason they were able to is because the Hawaiian population had been decimated it was like less than 20% of what it had been 100 years prior because of, like smallpox and other diseases that Europeans brought. So white people were literally toxic, like not just like figuratively toxic politically, but literally toxic.
Speaker 2:So that's the story of all of America. Yeah, yeah, because that's what happened when the white colonists first came to mainland America. Yeah, yeah, because that's what happened when the white colonists first came to mainland.
Speaker 1:America Right Right Now. It wasn't done, to my knowledge, intentionally. The way that, like smallpox, infected blankets were given to on continental US were given to native populations, but still anyway. So I'm actually going to move us on, because there's a couple things that I want to talk about. We're running out of time.
Speaker 2:Yes yes, yes.
Speaker 1:So I do want to talk about the animation. So one of the reasons that this movie I learned in this oral history that I mentioned and that was published in Vulture, one of the reasons that this movie looks so different is because it flew under the radar Like they made a movie that Michael Eisner didn't know they were making. Under the radar they made a movie that Michael Eisner didn't know they were making. They were like they hid out in the Florida studio, which has since been closed and they had the protection of a guy who was a little higher up on the chain, who really believed in the project, and so he protected them from the committees that would have pushed them to make changes and push on the romance and push on the things that would have like them to make changes and like push on the romance and like push on the things that would have like Disneyfied it, yeah, yeah. And so that's part of the reason that they got away with it. So they made this movie like on a really low budget kind of the way that, like in the early days of Disney, the way that the animators talked about it in this oral history was that like it was a group of animators who were young and talented and hungry and wanted to prove themselves, and so they were working very hard and doing ridiculous amounts of work for the time that they had allotted. They also like they just this very ambitious thing with these watercolor backgrounds that are absolutely gorgeous and like some of the things they talked about. Like that I noticed, having just been in Hawaii Now, I didn't go to Kauai, which is the island in which it is set, but I was on Maui and Oahu and some of the things they said was like they noticed that, watching the ocean, like the white caps, the spray was not white, it was pink, right, because, like the white caps reflected the sky in different ways and it's not what you expected, but they painted what they saw and it is absolutely gorgeous and really a reminder of the artistry that hand-drawn animation can be in a moment when everyone was enamored with CG. In fact, the poster does not really reflect the style, it's not CG, but it's polished in a different way than what the actual film is. So I think that's really a really interesting thing. When we think about the creation and the context and the storytelling and like looking at the scenes kind of thing, that feels like an important like thing. For me to lift up, that part of the reason that this film looks so different in ways that I find deeply appealing is because it was protected from the interests who were all about the money, right, so they were serving the story and that's really really lovely.
Speaker 1:Another little tidbit that I feel is interesting that I'll just mention quickly originally, the final scene when they're trying to get Lilo back because she's been kidnapped, it was originally that Stitch was going to steal a 747 from Honolulu and was chasing her, and so this film was made between 2000 and 2002. And they'd even gotten to color, they'd done the scenes, and then 9-11 happened and they were like we can't do this. So they rejiggered it and so instead he steals or not steals, but uses Jumba's original spaceship, and they put it in the wilds, the forests and mountains of Kauai, instead of in the cityscape. So that was like an interesting moment where they responded Like this scene that had been an outlandish and absurd and funny was suddenly like deeply traumatic after 9-11. I find that also really interesting in the ways that, like we have talked about, when you take things out of context, like it changes the meaning and like different things become important. That felt like a really like interesting moment that I wanted to share with our listeners.
Speaker 1:There's so much to talk about and I'm running out of time, so the final thing that I do actually want to spend a moment on coming back to that I mentioned before in order to try and get to Stitch, jumba and Pleakley dress as humans and it's ridiculous because Jumba's got four eyes and Pleakley has one. And it's ridiculous because Jumba's got four eyes and Pleakley has one. But they're dressed as a couple, as a man and a woman, like, with Jumba wearing like a big Hawaiian shirt and sunglasses over his four eyes and like a fedora, and Pleakley wearing like a dress and a black straight wig. Then at one point we see Pleakley sort of like pulling out a mirror and like preening with this wig on, and jumba's like what are you doing? And please? Like nothing, nothing.
Speaker 1:And and jumba's like I want to try and as I was watching it this time to prep for today, as pleakley's like preening, I'm like oh no, this is gonna be a transphobic joke like. But then jumba was like no, no, I want to try it. And then they fight over the wig and it like somehow made it okay, because I was ready for Jumba I didn't remember and I was ready for Jumba to like belittle Plakely for wearing the wig and instead he wanted in on the fun. And they're aliens and they look ridiculous and the one's got four eyes and the other's got one, but they're definitely male. They're definitely male. But we hear Pleakley say like I feel pretty and like it wasn't. It was certainly for comedic effect, but not in the transphobic way that I expected and that was refreshing looking back on it. So I just wanted to like lift that up. Given some of the things that we talk about on Deep Thoughts, I mean this may be completely out of pocket.
Speaker 2:But just knowing that First Nations cultures on the mainland has two-spirit people, nations cultures on the mainland has two-spirit people, I wonder if there was a similar sort of openness to gender non-conformity among native hawaiians?
Speaker 1:no idea, I will not speculate because I have I have done zero research and I do not know two white guys who wrote it, two white guys who wrote it and I have a feeling they did not consult with their native advisors for the wig thing, the wig gag.
Speaker 2:Although, like there is playing with those gender expectations, just with Cobra Bubbles. Totally so, but it's in a playful way, not in a like, and you're wrong for doing that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and actually making the supreme alien authority very clearly a female, a woman she's, like they refer to her as chairwoman, so and and it's a I don't know the I don't have the voice actor's name on the top of my head, but it's a woman's voice. So like there's definitely like other instances of sort of playing with expectations around gender and authority, mm-hmm, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 2:Well, even Lilo is like very much a little girl, but she's not Girly. Girly she's not like leaning into, like even just the moment with the dolls. Yeah, and like some of that has to do with her circumstances, like nani doesn't have the money to buy her a barbie doll, but also some of it has to do with the fact that, you know, pudge controls the weather and yeah, he was a vampire, yeah, yeah, but and she's also like, committed to the hawaiian, like to the hawaiian culture.
Speaker 1:that feels like what I picked up from that which is subtle, was lilo really wanting to stay connected to the deceased parents, like in the fact that she's been practicing the hula it wasn't, it wasn't guitar lessons like it's specifically hula, it's specifically a ancient and sacred hawaiian art that she is practicing and isn't there a moment where she's like, ah, tourists, or something like that.
Speaker 1:No, no, in fact she finds like her hobby she takes pictures of tourists like these, like very awkward pictures Like we see. This one dude shows up several times, this sort of chubby white guy with like sunburn, where he's been wearing a tank top, and then bright white, like belly and chest eating a ice cream and his ice cream keeps falling off the cone. And she snaps a picture of him and it's like this, like awkward whatever, and she's like at one point in her bedroom there's all these pictures on the wall. And she's like at one point in her bedroom there's all these pictures on the wall and she's like, aren't they beautiful? And they're all these like awkward candid moments of tourists.
Speaker 1:So she finds something like really compelling about their fish, out of water-ness I think, and their awkwardness. I mean we don't get an explanation in exposition as to what she likes about them. Okay, I mean we do hear Nani say like who wants to work at your fakey luau anyway when she loses that job, but Lilo does not express that. Okay, but her primary antagonist among her peers is a white, redheaded kid yeah, yeah so there are like little.
Speaker 1:There are markers, there are markers. So I could say a lot more, but I'm gonna wrap up to try and keep us in our agreed upon time frame. The highlights from this film in terms of the form, this was a return to hand-drawn animation in a time when, like Disney was kind of at a low point, like they'd come off the high of the Lion King and then had a couple of duds with like the Emperor's New Groove and stuff, although, the people.
Speaker 2:they were duds financially Right at the box office. That movie is beloved.
Speaker 1:Well, let's put that on the list. Let's put that on the list. Yeah, like the Disney audience had sort of shrunk, like people didn't trust them as much. Animation a return to, like a real commitment to the artistry and to a single artist's vision in a way that had not been done since, like maybe the 40s. The watercolor backgrounds, for sure, had not been done since the 40s. In fact, they had to like they went and interviewed a guy who was like in his 80s, who had worked on snow white, to talk, to ask him, like what were the like? He told them like some of the tricks, like the actual technical, like how to keep the paper flat and stuff, so institutional knowledge wasn't there anymore. It wasn't. It wasn't there anymore, and they were able to do that in part because they flew under the radar at this satellite studio in Orlando, not in LA where Michael Eisner didn't see cuts along the way. He didn't see it until it was done.
Speaker 1:In terms of the form, that's sort of an interesting thing about this film and part of why I find it so compelling and so it feels like such an experience as a viewer. The backgrounds feel like they're conveying something of Hawaii in a way that I think a CG like didn't, or what in 2002 certainly wouldn't have. It might be interesting for us to at some point maybe compare Lilo and Stitch and Moana, maybe putting that out there into the universe. So that's sort of interesting in terms of the form. And then in terms of the actual content, this film written by these two white dudes, input from Native Hawaiian stakeholders and contributors contributors Tia Carrera and other voice talent and stakeholders, like the students and the teachers at the elementary school with the choir that actually sang some of the songs that like in the oral history they talk about, like the parents coming in like 15 at a time to listen to the songs and like crying because like to see disney, like have featuring their kids, you know yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:so there's something like about sort of the historiography of bringing culture, that is marginalized culture, into sort of mainstream pop culture and like how that was happening 20 plus years ago, how we might do it differently now. That I think is really interesting. And then, because they were telling a story about these two Native Hawaiian protagonists, we end up with this microcosm of the imperialist story, with Cobra Bubbles who turns into an ally but through most of the film is an agent of the state who is threatening and is going to separate this family. Then just becomes this microcosm of the toxicity of American like mainland American culture and bureaucracy on Native Hawaiian culture and families and deciding what's best for Native Hawaiians Right.
Speaker 1:Right. So that feels really interesting and I don't know that Sanders and DuBlois knew they were doing it. Maybe they did, but I don't know that they did. I think they were just trying to tell a story and that's the conflict that was needed. But that's one of those moments where, like to do that, you have to reflect the reality and the structures that are there. So that's complicated and nuanced, but loving between these two sisters and passes Bechdel with flying colors. We have an interesting, weird little moment with some cross-dressing that I was worried was going to go transphobic for the joke, and it definitely went for the joke, but in a way that was much more gentle and accepting and playful than I was afraid that it would be in 2002. I feel like I'm forgetting. What am I forgetting? Tia Carrera is amazing. Tia Carrera is amazing is amazing.
Speaker 2:And should have had a much more luminous career than she has had thus far, although it's not over yet. What else did we mention? Oh, you talked about. You mentioned it a little obliquely, but the song that she sings, that was written by the queen, whose name I'm not going to be able to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, lily Koalani.
Speaker 2:Lily Koalani.
Speaker 1:I think I'm saying it right. I may be forgetting a syllable. It's very long. It starts with Lily and yeah, aloha'oi. And how important that is to hawaiian culture today. I mean, it was, it was written in the in the 19th century, so it's it's not ancient, but it's from a moment of grief and pride that like really fits here and is as deeply poignant. Yeah, thank you for reminding us of that. Yeah, so, in short, go watch this movie if you haven't.
Speaker 1:There's a whole franchise where they like oh, ohana and family is the other thing that I talked about Like sort of chosen family and like the family is small and broken but still good, like that's kind of a thesis if we underline it. Mm-hmm. There's a whole franchise of Lilo and Stitch stuff that focuses on family and found family and chosen family that I'm not as familiar with. I've seen a couple of them. So I'm not even talking about, I'm just talking about the 2002 movie. Well, and I know, for elder millennials the Ohana Means Family is a thing because of this movie. I think it's important too to note that it's not a like a platitude, it's not a Pollyanna-ish Ohana Means family Like. This family is hard, it is small and it is broken and I think that's really important to note. Yeah, what?
Speaker 2:are you gonna bring me next week Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.
Speaker 1:Excellent.
Speaker 2:I mean, you're ready for some wild stallions, aren't you? I am ready.
Speaker 1:I'll see you then. I'll see you then. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?