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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts About In & Out
Does anybody here know how many times I had to watch Funny Lady?
The 1997 film In & Out, directed by Frank Oz (yes, the one who voices Miss Piggy) and starring Kevin Kline, Joan Cusack, and Tom Selleck, has mostly been forgotten–but this feel-good comedy had a lasting impact on Emily. When she saw it in the theater as an undiagnosed neurodivergent 18-year-old, she was confused as all hell when Kline’s character comes out at his wedding (to a woman) about three-quarters of the way into the movie, despite his protestations of heterosexuality up until that point.
Baby Emily understood something that may have been unclear to the intended audience: that the stereotypical characteristics of “masculinity” have approximately jack-all to do with sexual orientation. Although Oz created a lovely story about acceptance (and one that was likely an important stepping stone for straight Americans to embrace LGBTQ rights), the reliance on stereotypes for humor makes the movie a cringey, if well-meaning, time capsule.
Throw on your headphones and take a listen–and don’t compliment the fabulous window treatment.
Mentioned in this episode:
“In & Out” Is a Great Gay Movie and Deserves as Much Love as “The Birdcage”
Classic Film Review: “In & Out” turns 25, old enough to be a “classic”
Tango Men, Choreography by Ezequiel Sanucci
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
And Howard says to him do I look like a homosexual to you? And Bob Newhart says I don't know. Stand up and walk for me.
Speaker 2:Oy, yi, yi, what a horrible, like ugh. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Speaker 1:I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I will be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1997 Kevin Kline film In and Out with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you, let's dive in. So, tracy, I have no idea if you've seen this film, if you remember this film or anything. It's kind of one of those like forgettable 90s films, but it made a big impression on me. So tell me what you know about this film, if anything.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I've seen it or not. What is in my head about it is Kevin Kline, which you already said is gay and closeted, and someone outs him, someone else outs him and then, or maybe he's even closeted to himself somehow. Yeah, that's it. That's all I got Kevin Kline closeted, outed by someone else. That's all I got. But you just named it as forgettable but making an impression on you. So why are we talking about it today?
Speaker 1:So we a few weeks ago we talked about Chasing Amy, which also came out, I believe, in 1997. And this film was the second one of that year and I couldn't remember which one I saw first. I saw both of them in the theater where someone makes a statement about their sexuality and I went wait what? That's not what I thought was happening. In Chasing Amy, alyssa, played by Joey Lauren Adams, makes it very clear that she is gay, she is a lesbian, she's not interested in men, and then she kisses Ben Affleck. And in this film, kevin Kline spends probably the first three quarters of the film telling everyone I'm not gay. I don't know why he said that until at his wedding to a woman, instead of saying I do, he says I'm gay. And I remember being in the theater going like what movie am I watching?
Speaker 1:For me, revisiting this film was a little bit about going back into undiagnosed neurodivergence as a teenager, because I think that both of these films give me a really clear-eyed view of things that in retrospect are obvious about my understanding of subtext understanding of subtext. But it's also a very interesting time capsule of greater acceptance and awareness of homosexuality in American media. But at the same time it's really relying on some very ugly stereotypes. So there's a very sweet heart underneath of this film. But it's also like I was watching it and my son came in.
Speaker 1:I was like I really don't want you watching this film. Not that like there's anything. He was saying like, oh, is it not appropriate? I was like no, I need to talk to you about pretty much every single thing that happens in this film and I don't have the time for it right now. So it's not that it's inappropriate, it's that it's really outdated. All of those are part of it. And then I did not know the story behind why this film came to be, nor did I realize that it was directed by Frank Oz, Miss Piggy.
Speaker 2:Wait what.
Speaker 1:Miss Piggy directed this film.
Speaker 2:Weird. I know, is Oz gay.
Speaker 1:No, paul Rudnick, who wrote the screenplay, is Okay. You know basically what I want to bring to discussing this very weird film that does not have staying power but that I think was in a lot of ways very influential because of the type of gay story it told.
Speaker 2:And Klein was already like a well-known, yes, he was already A-list, yeah, yes.
Speaker 1:It's full of A-list stars. So Joan Cusack is in it, debbie Reynolds, wilford Brimley, matt Dillon, and then there were a lot of young actors who went on to have pretty long glowing careers, who were in their early 20s or even late teens, because Klein's character plays a schoolteacher, so it's his students Bob Newhart's in it as well. Oh yeah, it's quite a list. Oh, and Tom Selleck, oh yes.
Speaker 2:Is he the love interest? He's not, not the love interest.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'll kind of give you a little like the background of the film and then the plot of the film before we kind of jump into the analysis. Okay, so this I was completely unaware of until yesterday. Background the reason why this film was written was because when Tom Hanks won the Oscar for Philadelphia, he thanked two people from his past, a teacher and a fellow student that he went to, I think, high school with, who were gay, and he named the teacher and he said two of the finest gay Americans I have ever known, or something along those lines, and said like this is for them, this Oscar is for them. And I will have to look it up. I don't know if it was Frank Oz who saw that, but someone was like wouldn't it be interesting if someone did that? And it wasn't the person. They said you know, like this gay person who influenced me wasn't out of the closet. So that's where the idea of the story came from. And they wanted to make it kind of a farce. So that's the background. Wanted to make it kind of a farce, so that's the background. So the story is set in a fictional small town called Greenleaf, indiana. I think that it's important that it's set in Indiana. That's not something I remembered but that was like an important aspect of it, considering this is 1997. 1997 was the year that Ellen DeGeneres had her character come out as gay on her sitcom and then her sitcom was canceled. So it was very controversial at the time. Just talking about the fact that gay people exist was controversial.
Speaker 1:We meet Kevin Kline's Howard Brackett. He is a high school English teacher. He is engaged to another English teacher, miss Emily Montgomery, who is played by Joan Cusack. They are getting married at the end of the week. We meet him talking to his current class of seniors because one of his former students has gone on to become an actor and is up for the Best Oscar Actor Award for his part in a film called Protect and Serve about a gay soldier in Vietnam. So we learn that Howard and Emily have been engaged for three years. We see everyone gathering in the town to watch Cameron Drake is the former student played by Matt Dillon to see if he wins the Oscar. He does.
Speaker 1:We see a clip of the film which is ridiculous but also like horrifying, because he is the character is expelled from the military dishonorably, gets a dishonorable discharge because he is gay, but their evidence is he has a signed VHS copy of Beaches, signed by Bette Midler. There's more than that, but like there's a love letter and then there's something else, and then like there's the signed copy of Beaches and like in the court, martial trial, he's whatever you call it. He says you give that back. He's like stoic about everything else. She says like I need to accept this on behalf of all of the gay Americans who are not able to serve. But I also really want to make sure that I talk about someone who's very influential in my life. He taught me Shakespeare, mr Howard Brackett, my high school English teacher, and he's gay.
Speaker 1:And then there's silence all across Greenleaf, indiana. So Howard's parents come over to his house. Howard is there with his fiancee saying like I don't know why he said that. His parents come over and they say look, you're our son. We would love you, no matter who you are, what you are, if you're gay, straight, if you robbed a bank, if you killed someone. We will always love you. Except you have to get married. Because mom needs music, flowers, place cards. It's like an addiction. I need the wedding. We then learn that Emily doesn't live with Howard because Howard's parents give her a ride home, and then the next day, the slathering hordes of the media descend, including Peter Molloy, who is played by Tom Selleck without a mustache. Wait what? Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2:That comes off. No, yeah, okay, rearrange your mental furniture right now.
Speaker 1:Howard is getting hounded by everyone. His principal asks him to please talk to the media, because they're talking to everyone at the school and the principal, played by Bob Newhart, is getting some complaints from parents at the allegation that Howard is gay. Media departs, except for Peter Molloy, as played by mustache-less Tom Selleck, because he is under pressure from his network and so he wants to get kind of a deeper story, more than just like like set everything up and he's like all right, what kind of you know triple X have you brought me? And like we have the uncut edition of Funny Girl, because he really likes Barbra Streisand.
Speaker 2:And that's supposed to be code for those of us watching that he is in fact gay. I think so, okay.
Speaker 1:What the movie does right and is kind of great. All of these very like Midwestern guys are saying like you had that little film festival for us, like last year, and we knew that you loved Barbara and you know what. It was actually really fun. There's a lot of really good movies. Howard is like no, that's not what I want, it's my bachelor party. And one guy says, oh well, you know what Gansel kind of sucked. And Howard's like, oh, how dare you. And like the guy says Barbara Streisand was too old for that role and they get into a brawl. No-transcript.
Speaker 1:Emily is a little younger than Howard, actually quite a bit younger than Howard, and she had been much heavier and she lost 75 pounds. She had talked earlier about doing Richard Simmons videos. So when he gets to her apartment she's working out to a Richard Simmons video and he's like kind of taking her into bed. She's delighted. But then he looks over and she had just muted Richard Simmons so he can see it. He freaks out, he's like got to turn that off, got to turn that off. And so they don't end up consummating the relationship and he runs off again and again Emily reassures him like I love you, I'm not worried about this. We're getting married. You know, like this is your Howard, I'm Emily, we're good, still freaking out.
Speaker 1:He's riding his bike and he goes through an intersection and is nearly run over by Peter Molloy, tom Selleck, who, like, gets out and is trying to calm him down. Molloy tells him like I came out it was actually, it was tough, but it was the best thing I ever did. He says the one line that like I, that I think held up over the past 30 years, which is like he says you know, I told my mom, my dad, my dog, my boss. I said Mom, dad, sparky, I'm gay. Mom cried for about 10 seconds. My dad said but you're so tall.
Speaker 1:And then Peter Molloy kisses Howard. This is one of the again one of the reasons why I'm like a little uncomfortable with this film. He kisses him, he says you know what you need, and then he grabs him and kisses him. Now, to the film's credit, it is a 12 second full on kiss. It is played for laughs, but it is also made clear that Howard is enjoying it, which is gross because it's nonconsensual, right, you know, it's like. If only that it had been. Like I'm gonna kiss you. Tell me if you don't want me to like if they've done that anyway, still freaking out.
Speaker 1:Howard goes home and he has like this brown paper package under his bed. He takes it out and it's a um, reclaiming your masculinity, like audio cassette tape thing. And so he starts playing it and it's like a man talking, saying, like you know, are you wearing something appropriately masculine? He's wearing like a plaid button down shirt. Well, untuck it only half of it and like, oh, you hate this, don't you? And then it goes through, like you know, say things like yo, and hot damn, what fabulous window treatments. See, that was a trick. You shouldn't have said it.
Speaker 1:So this scene is actually very, very funny and would have held up if it had not been like so clearly you're gay because of this. I took it when I was watching it as little baby Emily, emily, as like yeah, there's not any one way to be a man. That scene one of the things it says is like one thing a man never does is dance. There is no rhythm, there's no grace, there is no pleasure, and it starts playing I will survive. And he has this like amazing, like joyful dance around the room and is again it's just like how is that about heterosexuality or homosexuality, or masculinity or femininity?
Speaker 2:like that's a banger like fred astaire and, oh, mikhail baryshnikov. I mean like gene, what's?
Speaker 1:his name Gene.
Speaker 2:Kelly, yeah Him, yeah, yeah, like what?
Speaker 1:I just recently learned that tango was originally created as a dance between two men, because it was a situation where there weren't enough female partners. Huh, I'll include a link in the show notes. There is this hot video of two men doing the tango.
Speaker 2:As in H-A-W-T, hot, hot Anyway. So real men don't dance, but Kevin Kline Howard Kevin Kline's Howard dances to I Will Survive.
Speaker 1:Yes, his students are freaking out a little bit. Not freaking out, they're cluelessly talking about it and like they're saying like I think I figured out why he thinks you're gay, you're a decent human being, you're very clean and neat and tidy Gay. And it's like and his principal basically tells him if you don't get married, you're going to get fired because parents are worried. The principal says to him like, do you enjoy teaching? And he says no, I don't enjoy teaching, I love it. This is my life. And he says well, you need to get married. Basically he's like is that a threat? No, it's a warning. We're friends. Friends warn each other. It also had a line. Bob Newhart, as the principal, had a line that I thought was hilarious in 1997 and cringed watching it last night, where Howard says to him do I look like a homosexual to you? And Bob Newhart says I don't know. Stand up and walk for me.
Speaker 1:Oy yoy, what a horrible like, like I, I had forgotten about that line, but seeing it I was like oh yeah, I remember that being funny I mean honestly, there's no.
Speaker 2:Just the question itself is cringeworthy yes, yes, in 97, it wasn't.
Speaker 1:In 97, it wasn't. And the context of where Howard is that he's being asked that like. So the principal is saying to him like parents are calling because they're concerned that you're a home and Howard goes a homeroom teacher, he's like and he finally gets the word out homosexual and like. It's forgivable the way that, with the way that everyone is treating Howard, I did not feel uncomfortable with Howard responding in that way.
Speaker 2:Not that I think that's okay.
Speaker 1:But just because he is being pushed into this corner, yeah, sure, okay. So Howard's parents invite Peter Malloy to the wedding. Why they run into them right after the kiss? Oh, so they think they're friendly. They think they're friendly. He's like, oh, any friend of Howard's, I hope you'll come to the wedding. And so at the wedding, emily comes down the aisle. They take way too long. Does anyone know of any impediment? Because it's a movie.
Speaker 1:And then starts with do you take this man to be your husband? To Emily, she says I do man to be your husband. To Emily, she says I do. Turns to Howard and he says I'm gay. And then, like, turns around and comes out to the entire congregation at the church. Emily runs off, he runs after her and he and this part I remember is very well is like I'm a horrible person. You must hate me. I insist that you hate me. I can't believe I've done this to you.
Speaker 1:Something that a commentator that I was reading talked about is the fact that she is not angry at him for being gay. She's angry at him for his timing. Because she says to him don't you think there could have been any point in time when you could have said this, yeah sure, prior to now. And then there is another very funny moment. That again is like, yeah sure. Does anyone here know how many times I have had to watch Funny Girl? And then she drops the only F-bomb in the movie. She goes fuck Barbra Streisand and then runs off and drives away in the just married car with like the dress hanging out. So like the physical comedy is hilarious, uh-huh. He's like I'm trying here, but are you going to have an operation? Are you going to be going into showbiz? And Howard's like no, dad, no. And his dad's like look, I'm just a farmer, I don't know any of this. I really am trying. I'm really trying, howard. And then Howard tells his father that he was fired. Right after the not wedding he got a phone call and his father says well, graduation's on Monday, I really hope you'll be there. He's like I don't work there anymore. He's like you taught those kids all year, you should be at graduation.
Speaker 1:We see Emily show up at a bar, still full bridal regalia. Peter Malloy is there. It's not clear, but it sounds like he's been fired as well. They start talking. He's very kind to her. She is like really in and out of good place. She's like I love you, you're nice, will you sleep with me? And he's like I'm gay. And she's like ah, is everyone gay? The other line that she's like it's been three years of sunsets and friendship and loving, loving support. I am ready. This is a medical condition. At this point she runs out and is like is there any heterosexual men? This is a red heterosexual, red alert. And is like in the middle of the road and Cameron Drake almost runs her over and he gets out.
Speaker 1:We had learned that she had been a student teacher the year that he was a senior and that she had helped him. She'd done tutoring after school for him to help him with Romeo and Juliet and they quoted it back and forth to each other. And Howard is like, oh goodness. And she's like no, no, it was fine, I was a student teacher, he was a student. I've actually looked it up.
Speaker 1:Joan Cusack is two years older than Matt Dillon. She would have been like a 20-year-old student teacher with an 18-year-old high school student. And so he, for a second, he doesn't recognize her. And then he's like, oh, miss Montgomery, and he goes what happened? And she goes everything happened because of you. And she's like no, no, no, I don't mean that, but your body is so different. She's like well, I've lost 75 pounds. And he's like well, why would you do that? You were so beautiful? He's like I mean you still are. I mean you're very beautiful, but it's clear that he had a crush on her even when she was much bigger. We see Howard's mom talking to several of the other old ladies and they're like you know, why is this a bad thing? Let's stop keeping secrets? And they all start sharing secrets and laughing.
Speaker 1:And then we, at the graduation, which also has the announcement of Teacher of the Year, a different teacher is announced as Teacher of the Year. Cameron Drake comes in and says wasn't Mr Brackett up for that? And everyone's freaking out because he's a movie star. And he's like well, he's no longer employed here and so which is the first, the kids? Anyone has heard of that. And so there's some back and forth about how, like members of the community are uncomfortable with this that he might influence. And Cameron Drake is like asking the principal questions in order to like get him to admit like, yeah, we're afraid the gay is going to rub off on the kids.
Speaker 1:One student, and it is unclear if it was written that he was actually gay or if this is just an I Am Spartacus moment. But he's like well, I've been his student all year. It must have rubbed off on me because I'm gay. And so then the other three students who we've seen as like the closest to Howard also announced that they're gay. The principal's like well, but it's about members of the community. So Howard's brother stands up, says I'm a member of the community and I don't care. He's like yes, but you're not a parent. And so Howard's parents stand up and say, like we're parents and we don't care. And so then everyone starts saying you know what? But I'm gay too, and I'm gay. And so there's this huge I am Spartacus moment, and the teacher who won Teacher of the Year says yes, but I'm still Teacher of the Year. And so Cameron Drake jumps up and says well, he may not get that award, but I think there's another one that he deserves. And he gives the Oscar that he won to Howard.
Speaker 1:And the film ends with Howard's parents renewing their vows so that Howard's mom can have the beauty and the music and the place cards and stuff. And it's this huge dance party where everyone is dancing to Macho man party, where everyone is dancing to Macho man. So when I'm talking about things that haven't aged well, I like starting with what gets right. So the thing that this film gets right is the idea of acceptance. Everyone in this small town loves Howard. They all really think he's the greatest guy ever, and the fact that he's gay doesn't change that. The only person for whom that changes things is the principal, and it's clear he's just a weasel.
Speaker 2:So is it? Is the impression, then, that he's actually lying when he says the community doesn't want the gay to rub off on the kids. It's unclear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's unclear to me and you know this is a. It's a very sitcom. Everything's wrapped up in a pretty bow For the kind of Indiana watchers viewers who were like Wilford Brimley's character going are you going to have an operation now? Who were like I don't know what any of this means, but also made it clear that the dad was trying his best. He had no idea what the hell he was talking about. It doesn't affect how father or son feel about each other. Yeah, yeah, there was gentleness to it. Yes, yeah, it's a gentle ridicule, and that I think they did really well.
Speaker 1:The other thing this was something that really stuck in my head. So it's two boys and two girls who are like the core students, who are like big fans of Howard's in his class, and so one of the boys is kind of a blowhard, is they're in the locker room, howard is the track coach. I think they're in the locker room, they're talking about it. They're talking about like the blowhard is saying like there's two times where it's okay to be gay One is in prison, where it's a substitute, and the other is in space and like he's just it's ridiculous and he's like well, it's, that's the thing. Like you know, it's the human body. Human body has in holes and out holes and so you know, gay men, they put things in the out holes. And so another kid asks so mouth's an in-hole. It's like, yeah, yeah, you eat, but like when you vomit it comes out the in-hole and that's wrong. And that's why, and like that felt familiar when I was 18 to the kind of bullshit that I hear from my guy friends. Yeah, and like I remember and I thought it was in the movie, but I kind of appreciate that they let the audience do this itself. The kid asking like so mouth's an in-hole. The kid's obviously going like not everything gay men do is wrong, right. So like for a movie that is very like over the top and underlining the thesis, yeah, they let the audience be like this kid's full of shit. So I thought that was something they did very nicely.
Speaker 1:Seeing Howard's comfort with himself after he comes out is really well done. Now, kevin Kline he's a phenomenally talented actor and hilarious. He's a very incredible comedian. So I felt like the way that he showed like this kind of like comfort in himself once he's come out was really well done. But I got to get to the thing that little baby Emily was confused by and adult Emily watching it last night was also like, frustrated by.
Speaker 1:I could tell, even as an 18 year old, that the movie wanted me to make assumptions about Howard's sexuality based on stereotypes. But for me, I'm watching this and a third party outs Howard. That's just wrong. Outs him to the world, and for me it was just like Mm-hmm Outs him to the world, and for me it was just like he hasn't seen this kid in I don't know 15 years.
Speaker 1:Cameron Drake is shown to be not the brightest bulb, mm-hmm, so like it never occurred to me that he was right about something that Howard himself didn't know or you know. Like that just seems like such a betrayal of boundaries. Not like it would be a betrayal of boundaries if Howard were gay and closeted and had actually had a conversation with Cameron about it. He's outing him to the entire world. That's not okay. But the fact that Howard is closeted to the point where he's getting married to a woman and someone else makes this assumption about him and feels like they have the right, I cannot, like. I have trouble seeing Cameron as a sympathetic character because of that, even though they very much want him to be a sympathetic character. That's part of it, I thought, like the entire movie, until he says I'm gay. I thought it was a little bit more about how masculinity doesn't have to be any one thing.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and actually it just reifies the idea that the fact that he's not hypermasculine, therefore he must be gay.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I've been thinking about it. One of the things that Peter Malloy says is like because Howard says I love Emily, I don't want to hurt her, and Peter says, well, think about how much you'll hurt her if you go through with this wedding. Says, well, think about how much you'll hurt her if you go through with this wedding. So that again Peter assumes he knows who Howard is. But he does make a good point that if you do know this about yourself, don't do this to her. But we don't have any indication that Howard does know this about himself. We don't have any indication whatsoever. And the assumption that other people know howard better than he knows himself.
Speaker 1:I find that offensive yes, now, on the other hand, he is not sexually interested in emily. You know three years engaged yeah, you know, and this is not someone who's just very conservative and like, because, because that would be like a six month engagement, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:One of the things like this movie and Chasing Amy helped me crystallize something that I really like about myself, which I think is actually a feature of my neurodivergence, which is that I can mind my own business like a motherfucker.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If it's not my business, I don't get involved, I don't think about it, I don't question it.
Speaker 2:It's not my business yep, I'm the same way. I am the same way. I think maybe we were raised that way.
Speaker 1:I think that's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that they're just, there are boundaries and that and their boundaries, and it's not like, but you can tell me, I never say that I know like that kind of prurient like curiosity, like if I understand, it's not my lane, it's not my lane.
Speaker 1:And I've always really liked that about myself because I know like I don't, I'm not going to meddle in other people's business and I'm not going to like gossip about other people. I like that about myself. This film has got me thinking there are limits to the benefits of minding my own business like a motherfucker. Because if you see a train wreck coming, like Peter does with the marriage between Emily and Howard, like should you maybe try to stop the train wreck? I don't know.
Speaker 1:But the other aspect of it is that I take people at their word and lessen until I've been given reason not to Sure. So like if someone has shown themselves to be untrustworthy, I don't take them at their word, right. But Howard, running around saying like I'm not gay, like it's not that I have a problem with gay, I just that's not who I am. Okay, I trust you know better than I do, right. You know you know better than I do, right, and that's something I don't know how to like square that circle because it's none of my business. I trust people know themselves better than I do In this film. Other people may know more than he does. Is that something that actually happens or is that just the sitcom-y nature of this film?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think that Like there's multiple, there's like multiple things going on here, like on the one hand and I'm the same way I take people at their word until I have reason not to, and that makes me very bad at politics, like any kind of like office politics or any kind of group politics I'm very bad at because I take people at their word and like I don't get subtext, which doesn't always serve me than that, because the conceit of the film is that Howard is being honest. It's like an extra layer and I think what I find offensive about the idea that other people know him better than he knows himself is that it's not his mom or his dad or Emily who are his most intimate confidants and people who like his inner circle it's not them who are saying it, it's actually strangers or like two or three circles out. And based on these stereotypes which, as you say, like I mean, because, like based on those stereotypes, like I have short hair and I prefer to wear trousers and I drive a stick shift, I'm actually not a lesbian, I'm genuinely not. I don't want to sleep with women, but I do have short hair and drive a stick shift and prefer pants over skirts, liking Barbra Streisand and dancing to I Will Survive doesn't make Howard gay. Wanting to sleep with men makes Howard gay.
Speaker 2:I think that's the piece that feels offensive in this film. Not even that someone might know something about me that I'm too close to see and that you, as my sister and friend, might see it. That's not offensive. It's through these ridiculous stereotypes that really are about masculinity, not actually about homosexuality. I think that's what feels offensive and dated and off in what you've described.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to the movie's credit, final scene is everyone dancing to Macho man, including Bob Newhart, Like it takes him a little while to get into it and like he's the most uptight. He's not the most macho of the men in the town, but he's the most uptight.
Speaker 2:And the casting too right. Like Tom Selleck as the other kind of out gay man in the film. Like Selleck is not limp-wristed, shrinking violet. That I think the sort of non-masculine, like he's not an effeminate man.
Speaker 1:Selick is not.
Speaker 2:And so that kind of pushes back against this idea that things that are coded as not masculine, that Howard likes, are what makes him gay and yet like it's a push me, pull me thing. I think that also, if we look at how people are treated in the movie, the fact that the actor the former student like really doesn't have any consequences, in fact gets to come save the day from the mess that he himself made. He himself made like the movie itself does not provide consequences for him, and you say that you as a viewer have a hard time viewing him sympathetically, but obviously the movie does, and so I think that also pushes back against the idea that, like someone, a relative, stranger, could know something about me that I don't know because of these markers that are not actually related to the identity.
Speaker 1:If they had given any, for why Cameron?
Speaker 1:knew that Howard was gay because they never let us know how he knew, other than other people's assumptions about how he knew it. Just there is something to like the kind of social pressure, yeah, making it clear that he needs to be straight to continue teaching, and the fact that he is teaching and living in the same small town that he has spent his entire life in. I think they got that kind of right. But what's interesting? So I read several commentators last night.
Speaker 1:One was saying that they prefer this movie to the Birdcage, which came out, I believe, the same year, and for a couple of reasons. One is that the end of the film does not have like there's a suggestion that Peter and Howard are together, but it's not clear. And it's clear that he is happy and content in himself, without necessarily having to be paired up because his support system is around him, who loves him, like his students, his family, his neighbors, his you know all of that. I appreciated that. And it's this small town in Indiana. So this like kind of conservative town has rallied around this man, whereas the end of the birdcage there is a clear demarcation between the senator's side of the aisle at the wedding and the birdcage side of the aisle.
Speaker 2:Also just in the birdcage in general, like it's the opposite, like it's the closest, like the son is the one kind of forcing the dad back into the closet. Yes, where in and out, what you've just described like there are definitely forces that are trying to keep howard in the closet, but they're not his family, his family is.
Speaker 2:I mean they want the wedding, but only because they want the pageantry right, not because they need him to be straight in some way or to impress people in some way, like the birdcage. Armand's son, val, is the villain in my mind in that movie and it sounds like like the villain is actually the boss saying if you're gay, you're fired, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, which is more. It's not okay, mm-hmm, but it doesn't break my heart in the way that Armand's son saying it breaks my heart. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:The other thing that this commentator had to say was the kiss was a big deal in the birdcage. You don't see much, if any, physical affection between yeah, they sit close, that's that's about it. They sit close, and some of that's because they're an old married couple.
Speaker 2:You know they've been together for 20 years or however long yeah, I do think that robin williams and nathan lane sold their connection in that movie, but it was decidedly non-sexual in terms of what we saw on screen, as opposed to like a full-on 12 second like real kiss between tom sattelik and kevin klein I hear that, but it was a non-consensual kiss, yeah, which?
Speaker 1:and I'd like to believe that in 1997 we would not have accepted a male lead saying to a female lead, you know what you need, and then grabbing her and kissing her. Oh no, we would have accepted that. I think we would still accept that as a people I think we really would if we wanted them together Like if we're shipping them, absolutely yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:I think we would still accept that. If we're shipping them, yeah. If we know that she doesn't, if we know that she doesn't want it or that she's not interested or that he's yucky, or for something like that we won't, but or for something like then we won't. But if we like them together, like as a group, as groupthink, like them together, we would absolutely. We'd be like yay, clap, clap, clap, in part because we've been trained to that's how it happens, it's not cool to ask permission.
Speaker 2:I mean to me that's really like the challenge that I want to place to Hollywood. Like Hollywood, help us see how sexy it can be. I mean to me that's really like the challenge that I want to place to Hollywood. Like Hollywood, help us see how sexy it can be. I mean, consent is sexy. Please help us see how sexy consent can be. I know, I know, give us models.
Speaker 1:We don't have models, not really. The sexiness of consent is Will Ferrell in Stranger Than Fiction. He goes to Maggie Gyllenhaal and he says, and he's not supposed to, because he's auditing her, he's an IRS auditor. He goes to her and says I want you, and she's like okay. And she's like and I'm like, well, I just I needed you to know that. And then just leaves it for her to decide what to do from there. And then just leaves it for her to decide what to do from there. Nice, so anyway, like that is, oh, that's.
Speaker 1:I really wish that weren't how it went down, because the kiss itself played for laughs, but also kind of hot. It's well done and it doesn't shy away from like it's played for the laughs in the way that any kiss would be played for laughs. That like it surprises Howard how much he likes it. The other aspect of it and again, this is 1997, so I know that this is not something that the world was even talking about. I don't think I knew the term, but it's entirely possible that Howard is asexual and it's not that he's gay, and so you know there's this kind of like gay, straight, you know, binary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:And again to the film's credit, they do make it clear that he is bad for Emily. Yeah, you know they do care deeply about each other, but at one point he's like I have this, you know, beautiful, wonderful fiance and she's so sweet and funny and lovely and thin, and like it's made like minorly clear that she lost the weight for him.
Speaker 2:And then we have the actor say you were beautiful before. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:And at the end, when everyone's dancing, she has a bag of cheese curls and Cameron is feeding them to her. When everyone's dancing, she has a bag of cheese curls, and, and, and cameron is feeding them to her. So it's, and she says something about like my entire self-esteem is tied up in the fact that you wanted me she says that to howard.
Speaker 1:She says that to howard. So, like you know as much as I don't, I find cameron sympathetic, like I am glad at the end that there is someone with whom she had a connection like inappropriate, but still, like you know, it's 15 years before. And at one point, like they dance, like when he runs into her there's a song starts playing in the bar behind them and he starts to take her to dance. She's like I can't, You're my student. And he's like not anymore. I appreciate that there is that and that she has someone who has even bigger cachet than Howard Brackett Right, who appreciates her for her.
Speaker 2:Right, but you, yeah. Well, we are running short on time. Are there any points that you wanted to make that you haven't made?
Speaker 1:Film passes the Bechdel test very well. So Emily talks to many people, howard's mother talks to many people. There's the scene where all the women are sharing secrets. There's one other thing. So the secrets the first one is like the Rice Krispie treats that I made for the wedding. They're not mine, they're a dead woman's recipe. I stole the recipe from so-and-so when she died. And then someone else I don't remember, like they didn't like some famous show or movie. And then one other woman oh and, by the way, the woman who played the librarian at the beginning of Ghostbusters is one of the women in this scene and I was sitting there going like how do I know her?
Speaker 2:Her face is so familiar. My uncle thought he was Saint Jerome.
Speaker 1:But one woman says my husband has three testicles. It's disgusting and that's what gets everyone laughing and I remember thinking that was funny when I was 18. But seeing it now, I was just like that's not your secret to share. That's the sort of thing where, like, I can definitely understand a woman needing to share that with their girlfriends, but the way that they laugh about it and all of that is just like, oh, that's the same problem that Cameron did, Like he's sharing something to people that's not his secret to share.
Speaker 2:Yeah, presumably. The husband knows he has three testicles, though.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, he knows. But now he has to like if he sees his wife's friends, he's going to be like why are they tittering? Oh God, they know.
Speaker 2:Let me see if I can reflect back some of the highlights and maybe put my stank on it a little bit. So this film I think the things that are really rising to the surface from the analysis for me is really like a critique of late 90s, although I think it like. It definitely has tendrils that are still active today. But specifically from this time capsule from the late 90s, this kind of conflation of gender expression, specifically masculinity and sexuality, as if the only way to be sort of a real man and I'm putting quotes around that is to have kind of hyper-masculine characteristics and interests and likes and to also be heterosexual. That constellation is necessary and if any one of those things is not true, then all of them are not true, right? So the audio cassette that Howard listens to that's trying to help him reclaim his masculinity, that you can't say, the window treatments are fabulous. You're not a real man if you say that and therefore you are also gay. Therefore you are also gay. It's like one domino and the whole thing just falls down and that kind of strict binary is false and hurtful. It harms us, it harms people and it's very dangerous.
Speaker 2:And I think it's very much baked into this, the movie in some ways is trying to push back against it, but then doesn't, because Howard is in fact gay and other people, namely the former student, now actor know.
Speaker 2:And so there's like this push me, pull me, which we see so often with late 90s movies, where like, on the one hand, it's about acceptance and god bless these indiana townies and howard's family who really rally around him. Like it doesn't matter, we love him, we know who he is, it doesn't matter if he's gay or not. And on the other hand, like there's like a cosmological reality that it's tapping into about what it means to be a man. We also had like a little bit of a conversation about consent and I think you were starting to suggest that if it were a heterosexual couple today, we would push back against the lack of consent in the kiss that happens between the Tom Selleck character and the Kevin Kline character, and I think you were starting to say that perhaps we accept it because it was two men and it was like the kind of the novelty of it. I disagree. I actually think we still have a major problem with consent if we are also meant to be kind of excitedly anticipating the romance between two people.
Speaker 1:Shipping.
Speaker 2:Shipping. If we are shipping two characters, then we somehow don't care about consent like as a culture, which is a problem. The guy-girls name that as a major problem in the culture. What it means to be gay in this culture, or I should even I should say queer and like expand that, like not just gay as in homosexual, but queer as in not kind of cis, straight and allosexual meaning, not asexual. It does pass bechdel, which is cool. Joan cusack is very funny with her physical comedy.
Speaker 1:She was nominated for an Oscar for this film. Oh wow, that's cool, which the things that I was reading about it was saying like that just kind of shows you how slim the Pickens were.
Speaker 2:In 97,.
Speaker 1:yeah, not that she didn't do a fantastic job.
Speaker 2:but Well, those are the big things that I heard. Did I miss anything?
Speaker 1:What this means to me. Right right about my inability to read subtext and how that was an early indicator that I was neurodivergent, right.
Speaker 2:The other thing that I missed was, like when we put this movie in conversation with other movies, right, so chasing amy for you around, subtext, and around taking people at their word, especially about something about their identity, which both of these films suggest we can't do, and also in conversation with the birdcage, which there are things about the birdcage that are really beautiful, that we see like real love. The most healthy romantic relationship in the birdcage is between the Nathan Lane and Robin Williams characters, but also the person asking them to go back in the closet is their son, and that's really messed up, as opposed to this film where the person asking him to stay in the closet is his boss, which isn't okay, but at least it's not like an intimate, it's not a betrayal. It's not a betrayal, right, yeah, it's not like a, you know, an intimate. It's not a betrayal. It's not a betrayal, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:The other thing that we talked about, I think a little bit is sort of about minding our own business and sort of taking people at their word, the pros and cons in that, the assets and liabilities of doing that, trying to navigate, like how much of it is your business if you see someone about to make a huge mistake?
Speaker 1:that's going to hurt other people, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Which I still don't have an answer for.
Speaker 2:Right, well, and also sort of like the politicking gets very, very difficult. And also like we talked a bit about the idea that someone could know something about me that I don't know about me and who can know that? Like that someone from a distance could know that. And the suggestion again this comes back to the cosmological, like essentialist, the essentialist argument that this film seems to be making about homosexuality and masculinity together. That feels offensive.
Speaker 1:I will say to be fair, cameron Drake is not malicious.
Speaker 2:No, sure, sure, sure. I don't think anybody's malicious, no, and the movie makers aren't either. I just have a fundamental disagreement with them about the essentialist nature of it, that they are suggesting that necessarily the masculinity necessarily goes with the homosexuality, which they also counter with the casting of Tom Selleck, but still seem to be kind of reifying with the action of the film. So, yeah, cool, I don't think I need to rewatch this one, but still seemed to be kind of reifying with the action of the film. So, yeah, cool, I don't think I need to rewatch this one, if I even ever saw it. But next week, actually, my family is going to visit Hawaii to celebrate a big life cycle event that we had, and so for next week I am going to rewatch Lilo and Stitch, which is the film that introduced me to Hawaiian culture. So I want to take a closer look at that and see, like, what it got right and what it didn't, and we'll see how that goes. So I'm kind of excited about that. I know people younger than me Moana like introduced them to sort of Pacific Islander, but for me it was Lilo and Stitch. It was Lilo and Stitch Looking forward to it.
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