Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about Chasing Amy
Your mother’s a tracer!
Emily was very confused by the 1997 film Chasing Amy when she was an undiagnosed neurodivergent 18-year-old–in part because she was (and still is) crap at reading subtext and in part because the film accidentally illuminates the reality of bi-erasure. This week, Emily tells Tracie about what this well-meaning film about a cis-het white man learning to let go of his insecurities gets right about LGBTQ representation, what it gets wrong, and how it reinforces the division of emotional labor in textual and metatextual ways. The sisters also talk about the documentary Chasing Chasing Amy by Sav Rodgers that really helps contextualize the good and bad of this film and the era in which it was made. Finally, both Guy girls agree that Ben Affleck’s Holden really is mid.
If you’ve ever wondered what a Nubian is, throw on your earbuds and take a listen.
CW: Mentions of homophobia, homophobic bullying, Harvey Weinstein, and sexual assault
Mentioned in this episode:
Sav Rodgers: The Rom-Com That Saved My Life TED Talk
Chasing Chasing Amy: A Film by Sav Rodgers
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
There's a point where Holden asks Alyssa, why me Like? Why? Why? Of all the men in the world? Why? Why are you with me? Which I think is an excellent question, because Holden is extremely mid.
Speaker 2:What others might deem stupid shit. You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. We're sisters Tracy and Emily, collectively known as the guy girls Every week we take turns rewatching, researching. And Emily, collectively known as the Guy Girls. Every week, we take turns re-watching, researching and reconsidering beloved media and sharing what we learn. Come overthink with us and if you get value from the show, please consider supporting us. You can become a patron on Patreon or send us a one-time tip through Ko-fi. Both links are in the show notes and thanks.
Speaker 1:I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I will be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1997 Kevin Smith film Chasing Hate Me, with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you, let's dive in. So, tracy, if I recall correctly, you haven't seen this film. I don't think I have. Okay, do you have any notion any like furniture in your mind about it? Just from the zeitgeist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so from the zeitgeist, what I know is that I think it's the titular character is a lesbian, but all she needs is a deep digging to realize she's actually straight. That's what's in my head about this movie, which is maybe why I've never seen it, cause that just doesn't sound appealing. Yeah, that does not sound appealing. So I don't know if that's true or accurate or fair, but that's what's in my head about it. So tell me, uh, why are we? Why are we talking about it today?
Speaker 1:So a couple of reasons why we're talking about it. This movie came out when I was 18. It was on regular rotation when I was in college. I actually can remember my college would show movies in the big amphitheater where you had the 101 science classes, because we didn't have the theater on campus, and so I remember seeing it there and that was not the first time I'd seen campus, and so I remember seeing it there and that was not the first time I'd seen it, and there was a lot of conversation about it. I can recall absolutely adoring the first like 10 minutes of the movie, which is very funny, and I also. It hits different now compared to 1997 and thereafter, but I have watched those first 10 minutes many, many, many, many times, more often than I've seen the whole movie. It is, I think, the onset of my assertion that Ben Affleck makes me irrationally angry.
Speaker 2:That's funny. He's like William Hurt, your version of dad's yes.
Speaker 1:Wasn't it William Hurt. It was William Hurt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, every time it made dad irrationally angry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Every time we'd see a movie that had William Hurt in it, dad would be like, oh, that movie I don't like William Hurt Like what would be his response to it.
Speaker 2:It's like a regular blockbuster conversation that we would have.
Speaker 1:Constantly yes, and that has remained. There has never been a time where he has not made me irrationally angry, although at some point I think it became rational, just to be fair to you. So this is before I knew I had good reason for his face to make me want to punch something. Despite that, I kind of liked the movie and felt like at the time it felt very progressive, although at the time there were still like is it, though? Kind of questions about it, and I think I mentioned, when I told you that we were going to be doing this one, that this is one of the two films that should have helped me understand that I am neurodivergent, because it surprised the heck out of me when someone, self-professed about something over and over and over again, acts in a contrary to what they are self-professed and confuse the hell out of me, like I was like wait, what's happening? I'm not, I'm not watching the same movie. I thought I was so. So those are the reasons. And then this was not when we put it on the calendar.
Speaker 1:I had not done this, but I just saw an amazing documentary by a young filmmaker named Sav Rogers called Chasing, chasing Amy, which I'm going to include information about in the show notes and that I highly recommend everyone watch because it's amazing. Show notes and that I highly recommend everyone watch because it's amazing and I want Sav Rogers to have a long filmmaking career that is, you know, storied and well-funded and all of that. That is about how this film saved his life, um, as a young queer kid in Kansas, um, and he is a Zoomer, I think. I think he was born in the late 90s and so he happened to discover it when he was about 12 years old and when he was being bullied. It gave him something that he could latch on to. There are good queer characters in the world. There are people like me who have love, who are funny, who are smart in the world. There are people like me who have love, who are funny, who are smart, and he ended up making a viral TED Talk, which I've also linked to in the show notes. That got the attention of Kevin Smith, and in the TED Talk, sav mentions that he is a filmmaker, and so Kevin Smith reached out to him and said, if you want to make a documentary about this, I know the people who made it and they have become friends.
Speaker 1:And there is this just an incredible story of what this film has meant for Sav in his life and how he is able to like let it go and move on with his life without it. So, anyway, so that's that's part of the reason why I'm very excited to talk about it today. So those are. Those are kind of the things that are that are in my head about it.
Speaker 1:And then there's a queer representation, as written and directed by a straight white man, has a lot of like issues, like people call the film problematic and some of it is, like Smith himself will say, like these are things that were progressive in 1997. And then, like you move forward 25 years and now it's like it's not almost 30 years, it's not progressive anymore, it's like regressive. So like there's some of it. Is that some of that is like this is what happens when you get a well, accidentally does a really good job of explaining biphobia and bi erasure. So there's a lot there. And it's also like it's a little painful to watch now, nearly 30 years on, but there's still a lot to really like about it. Um, but it's it's. It's a complicated. It's a complicated movie to revisit cool.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll look forward to the analysis, but it sounds like you need to set the record straight for what the actual plot is based on. My yes, uh, never having seen it.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, so the movie is about a woman named Alyssa, not Amy. It's called Chasing Amy because Kevin Smith, as Silent Bob, tells a story of how he screwed up and lost a woman that he loved named Amy, and so ever since then he's been chasing Amy. That's a very Kevin Smith sort of thing to do. It's like a, like a frame. No, not until, like, you're like three quarters of the way through the movie before you see that Huh, okay, um, and it's, it's a. It's a very Kevin Smith thing to do. He he likes to make things make sense for himself, and he has actually described this making this movie as cheaper than therapy Interesting, although the woman that he wrote it about was not named Amy either.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:So we meet Ben Affleck's character, holden McNeil, and his lifelong best friend, banky Edwards, who is played by Jason Lee. They're comic book artists in New Jersey. They have a fairly successful comic book called Bluntman and Chronic that's based on Jay and Silent Bob. That is selling pretty well. They write this comic together. Holden is the initial artist and Banky is the inker and color and stuff like that. And so when we first meet him, someone is calling him a tracer. You're nothing but a tracer and Banky is getting very angry about it. They're at a Manhattan Comic Con and they go in to sit on a panel about minority voices in comic books. There's a man there who has the mic.
Speaker 1:Hooper X is the character's name. He's played by an actor named Dwight Ewell, who is still alive, but no longer. I was curious why Yule was not in the documentary that I mentioned and apparently he is no longer doing anything public. He had some sort of injury in like 2013. So Hooper X is a black man. His comic book is called White Hating Coon and his speech is all about how the comic book and sci-fi fantasy world is whitewashed and there are no um black heroes for children to look up to. The ones that there are were written by white men and they're whitewashed. Banky and Holden start like heckling him, saying like wait a minute, what about Lando Calrissian? And Hooper says like who said that? Oh, you're going to bring up the Holy Trilogy or the whole. Yeah, the Holy Trilogy there's. You know Lando Calrissian is an Uncle Tom and you know we are given Darth Vader, who is the biggest blackest Nubian. And Banky goes what's a Nubian? And Hooper takes out a gun and starts shooting at the, shoots Banky and shoots out the ceiling. And then he comes off the stage and he like drops the very serious, like angry persona and he is very stereotypically gay. He describes himself as swishy. And Holden and Bankey are like how are you allowed to get away with this? Why does your publisher let this? And he's like no, my publisher insists on this. They get all the permissions ahead of time. This is to sell comic books, because they won't buy comic books from a gay black man, but an angry black man. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Alyssa Jones, played by Joey Lauren Adams, and her character is actually based on Joey Lauren Adams because Adams and Kevin Smith were dating, although Adams is straight, that's the only like the big difference. So Alyssa comes over and is like why do you sound like Louis Farrakhan on stage and the King of Pop off stage? And Hooper introduces everyone. Holden is immediately smitten and the four of them go out for drinks. There's some conversation about what it's like to be on the minority panel in comic books. Alyssa writes a comic book called idiosyncratic routines which she talks about as being hearts and love and flowers and stuff like that. But it's, um, I believe, lesbian comic. It's not clear but I can't remember, but it's, it's, it's romantic comic. Nobody buys it.
Speaker 1:So Holden and Alyssa end up flirting that night and then holden and banky go back home the next day. They're talking about you know other stuff, you know you see them drawing things like that they taught you know. It's made clear that how long their friendship has been going on, since like elementary school, like they went to catholic school together. And Hooper calls and invites Holden to come to a bar where he is going to be attending bar that night, because Alyssa is going to be there, and ask that she extend the invitation. It's a bar called Meow Mix.
Speaker 1:They go Holden's again like flirting with Alyssa. He asks Hooper, he's like, oh, I'm going to go over and dance with her. And Hooper says wait, wait, there's something you should know. And Holden says does she have a boyfriend? And he says no. And he's like well then there's nothing to know, and that's the point.
Speaker 1:So they're flirting for a little bit the band stops playing and someone gets on and says yeah, we used to have this bass player before she left to draw some funny books or something. But what you might not know is that she had these delusions of being able to sing and so we wanted to come up and sing. So Alyssa goes up, she sings a song called Passion, something like that. Holden thinks she's singing to him, but there is a young woman standing very near him and when the song ends, alyssa and the young woman come and are crawling down each other's throats out and banky, you see, like looking around, and like the light bulb go off over his head. It's like meow mix, we meow mix, yeah. So they have a seat.
Speaker 1:Holden is now no longer having fun and is really miserable, and Banky and Alyssa start talking about. So Alyssa tells Kim the young woman, like you know, go dance and I'll work up the desire to fuck you later. And Banky's, like you said, fuck. What do you mean? Fuck Like you're two women, what with a strap on, and like there's this kind of cringy conversation that apparently Kevin Smith actually had with a friend of his who's a lesbian About what the actual sex act is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what fucking is if he thinks it's only penetration Got it. And then they end up sharing, like sharing war story, scars from like permanent injury they have gotten from going down on different women because of different things going wrong. I see, and it's very much like the sharing scars scene from Jaws, yeah, okay. So Holden and Banky end up leaving and several days later Alyssa shows up at Holden's it's unclear if their office and apartment, if they live there or not, but anyway shows up there and says like I think I made you uncomfortable the other night.
Speaker 1:I like you, I like it's been a long time since I've wanted to be friends with a guy and you know I don't want you to be uncomfortable. So, ask, you have any questions, please ask. And so he's like all right. And asks like so are you a virgin? She's like no, I've had all kinds of sex, she's like, and he's like, but not real sex. And she, she says, in the interest of continuing to like you, I'm going to pretend you didn't say that. And so, like it's into this like. So what does sex mean? What is penetration? What do you like? What are these things? That? And?
Speaker 1:and they kind of talk about that- then, there's a montage of them spending time together, um, really enjoying themselves and all of that. Banking, meanwhile, is like furious, like he really doesn't like alissa, um, you see her giving him a hard time several times, which is part of it. But he also also says to Holden like it's my job to have your back and like this is not going to end well. And Banky uses really offensive language. He uses the F slur consistently. He uses, I feel, like Dyke is I feel less weird about using that word, but I still don't feel comfortable using that word. But he uses the D slur for lesbian and he's doing that at one point. And Holden says like look, I know that that's not who you are, you're not a prejudiced person. Like can you please stop with the language? And they're alone in their office. And they're alone in their office and Banky's like I can say whatever I want in the privacy of my has. Um, a cuddly, man-friendly, lipstick, lesbian. At one. Um, one interest, one part of the intersection. Then there's a like man-hating dyke at another, then santa claus and then the easter bunny. And he says, okay, look at this, who's going to get to the $100 first? And Holden says the man-hating dyke. And Banky says that's right, because the other three are figments of your imagination. Ew, yeah. Holden says you need to leave this alone because I'm in love with her. And Banky is just like what do you think you're doing here? Like nothing, nothing's going to happen. You can't do this.
Speaker 1:We see Alyssa and Holden doing more stuff and they are at a diner one night after he's told Banky that he's in love with her and there are, there's art on the walls, like really kind of crappy art. And she negotiates with someone at the diner to buy this crappy painting. And they're in the car driving back and he's like so where are you going to hang it? She's like I'm not going to hang it, you are. And he's like what are your friends going to say if you tell them you need a man to help you hang a painting? She's like no, no, no, you're going to hang it in your house because I bought this as a gift for you to remind you of, like, our friendship and our meeting and all of this. And so he pulls the car over and he says I'm never going to need a painting to remind me of this, because I am in love with you and you have, like funnily, fundamentally changed who I am and this might end our friendship. But I can't hold it in anymore and I love you.
Speaker 1:And then comes the moment where little baby neurodivergent Emily was so confused. Alyssa gets out the car and starts walking like in it's raining buckets. Holden gets out the car too and like runs after her and she's like that was so unfair. He's like it's unfair that I'm in love with you. She says no, it's unfortunate that you're in love with me. It's unfair that you put that on me. You know who I am. You know, like, what my life is. This is like stop, this is your problem, not mine. And she tells him just go home. And so he's like moping back to the car and then she runs after him and jumps on him and kisses him and I was like what's happening here? What's happening here? She's gay. She just said that. She just said she's gay.
Speaker 1:So the next morning Banky comes in and finds them all curled up together on his sofa and he drops the chocolate milk he was carrying, wakes them up and like leaves. And so Holden comes out and talks to Banky and Banky says to him like this can't end well, and Holden's like you don't know that. And Banky says you're too conservative, like she has done things that we've only ever read about and so you're not going to be able to handle it. And Holden says, like well, at least we've read about it. And he's like there's no we on this, this is on you. There's a point where Holden asks Alyssa, why me Like? Why, why of all the men in the world? Why, why are you with me? Which I think is an excellent question, because Holden is extremely mid.
Speaker 1:And so Alyssa has this lovely monologue where she says, like, growing up, like it's because she came to it on her own terms. Growing up, she was expected to go for guys. That was what everyone told, her society, her parents, life told her, and she thought it was stupid to have her potential of finding the love of her life by only looking towards men, and so she wasn't going to limit herself by only looking at men because it might be among women. And so she, she wasn't going to like limit herself by only looking at men because there's you know, that might be among women. And so she dated women all this time. And then she met Holden and she really liked him, and then, as she was like no, we don't belong together in her head.
Speaker 1:She was realizing she was doing exactly what she hated as a kid. Thinking like this can't be something that can happen because of who he is. I'm still like limiting myself because he's a man rather than limiting myself because it's a woman, so I'm really paraphrasing it badly. It's a very well done monologue where she's basically making it clear that I'm with you because I fell in love with you and you are the person who feels like a good fit with me. We feel like we compliment each other and the fact that you have a penis has nothing to do with it one way or another. So, in other words, it's like a really good explanation of pansexuality.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So we also see Alyssa and meeting with her friends and they're like we haven't seen you in a while. She's like, oh, I'm so in love. And they're like, oh really, who is she? And she's kind of doing the pronoun game. She's like, oh, we have so much fun. They're from New Jersey. And the friends are like, why are you playing the pronoun game? What is the name of this person? And she says Holden. And her friends are all like disappointed, and like one like pours a glass of wine and says, well, here's to you both. Another one bites the dust, so like um, and that's, I think, part of what. Uh, in the documentary I mentioned, they were talking about the, the biphobia. I think it's different in 1997 than it would be in 2025.
Speaker 2:Maybe a little bit, but well, I guess we'll get into the analysis. But just in the moment what bothers me is Kevin Smith's sense that the friendship between these women is so fucking superficial these women is so fucking superficial.
Speaker 1:So now to be fair to Kevin Smith, he became friends with a filmmaker named Guinevere Turner who made a film called Go Fish. She is a lesbian. The film is like very overtly about being a lesbian in America in the early nineties and they were both at Sundance or one of those like in 1993, 94 with clerks, and so there was a lot of buzz about Go Fish. Nobody had heard of clerks and so they kind of like got to know each other and became friends then and have been like friends since. Like they they are long time, like lifelong friends, and she has a small part in the movie and she also helped him with some of the writing about being a lesbian. So that wasn't just coming from him. That was not just coming from him. All right, All right.
Speaker 2:Carry on Sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 1:That's okay. Anki then tells Holden that he ran into someone who went to high school with Alyssa. So they went to, they grew up a town away from each other and so someone who they went to high school with for like the first two or three years and then he transferred to the high school that Alyssa went to two and finds out that Alyssa had the nickname Finger Cuffs because there was a time when she went down on one guy while being fucked by another, so like Chinese finger cuffs. And so Holden's like I don't believe it, stop, leave this alone, let it be. And he ends up going to talk to Hooper about it and Hooper is like the voice of reason and the moral compass of of the film, because Hooper is saying um says to him like so, so what if it's true? And he's like I don't know why it bothers me, like it shouldn't bother me, like I know she's had sex with all these women and that doesn't bother me, but for some reason this, this is bothering me. And they talk also about Banky and Hooper says Banky loves you in ways that he has not dealt with yet. And Hooper suggests to Holden if you want to know, ask her, just ask her right out. And instead of doing that, holden passive, aggressively, slut shames her in public, where he starts with, like hey, I saw your, your yearbook, and your nickname was finger cuffs what was that about? And she's like been years, I don't remember. And then he says, well, hey, do you, do you know a guy named Rick Darius? It was one of the two guys that she she had this threesome with. She's like yeah, we used to hang out in high school. And then she starts telling the story, like laughing because she knows where he's going, so that she and then finally, like she yells at him like yeah, I sucked him off while Kobe London fucked me. Is that what you wanted to hear? And they're in public, they're at a ice hockey game.
Speaker 1:And the like guy next to Holden says like yeah, man, I knew where you were going with this and I don't even know you. And she runs out, he follows and he's like how could you do something like that? And she's like that happened before I met you and I was an experimental girl. Like what is your problem? And she says, look, I allowed you to believe that I had never been with a guy before and that's that's on me. I should not have allowed you to believe that, but I knew that it made you feel special in a way that my telling you that you're special wasn't going to work, wasn't going to do. But that's on me. The rest of that, no, I'm not going to apologize for the choices I've made because they led me here. This is who I am, this is what I've done and, like there, I have nothing to apologize for.
Speaker 1:So, like she storms off, he storms off, he ends up meeting with Jane, silent Bob.
Speaker 1:That's when Silent Bob tells that story about. Like it was a similar sort of thing. His Amy had had a threesome with a previous boyfriend and Bob couldn't handle it. Like he felt inadequate because like he couldn't compete with that. And so, instead of dealing with his inadequacy, he slut shamed her and like got angry. And it wasn't until after she left that he realized like no, no, this is about my own insecurity. But by then it was too late, she had moved on and you know, for the rest of his life he'll be chasing Amy. So we see Holden like looking at the yearbook and like kind of looking like he's going to come to some decision. And then he meets with Banky and Alyssa and he says like you're probably wondering why I have you both here. Basically, he proposes like let's have a threesome, the fuck I know, I know. Let's have a threesome, the fuck I know, I know. So his thinking is like that will fix everything because that will allow Banky to finally, like, act on the homoeroticism between the two of them.
Speaker 1:Yes, but there will be a woman there. So it's like, okay, and then, like that means Holden will feel like he's caught up with Alyssa, but they're, they're gonna be doing this together. And so Banky says fine about it. And then Alyssa says no and Banky goes, thank Christ. Meanwhile, like Alyssa sees what's coming and she's like don't do this, Don't do this, Don't do this. And she says, like this is not what you want. And he's like, well, I thought you'd be into it. And she's like is that what you think of me? Like, look, this is no, this is. I've done that. It's a, it's past and I don't want to share you. And why do you want to share me? And like there's no good can come of this and a cartoon like an animation of Bluntman and Chronic. And Holden's been like I'm not sure I want to do this, I want to do something, write something more personal. And Banky really wants to.
Speaker 1:We see, it's one year later and Banky is signing comics at another Comic-Con and someone hands him Bluntman and Chronic and he goes oh, that's a blast from the past, because he's now writing something called Baby Dave or something like that. He's writing a different new comic by himself On his own, yes, and he and Holden see each other and they kind of like, you know, like Nod, Nod at each other While Banky is telling the fan yeah, like the cartoon fell apart, the comic fell apart. We're not working together anymore, we're not friends anymore. And then Holden goes to Alyssa, who's signing idiosyncratic routine with a. She has a girlfriend there, a friend there who is a girl it's not clear if they're romantically involved and he hands her his new comic called Chasing Amy, and it's about how he screwed everything up and how he's learned from it.
Speaker 1:And he says I wanted you to have a copy of this. She's like, oh, is this new? I haven't seen it. He's like, yeah, very small run, I only did 50 copies. And she's like, oh, it looks really personal. He's like, yeah, I had something personal to say finally. And so he hands it to her and says I hope you'll take a minute to read it at some point. And then that's he, he leaves and that's the end of the film.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's the end of the film. That's the end of the film. Oh, so we don mean the payoff is-.
Speaker 1:There is no payoff. There is no payoff because- that's how life works. Yeah, and Alyssa is absolutely correct. Yeah, in everything. Yeah, fuck that. Yeah. So like when people call it a romantic comedy, that's not exactly correct, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's not the genre.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it breaks that genre Because a romantic comedy they'd end up together yeah, yeah, and as it is written, it ends the way it needs to end, like that would destroy the relationship between banky and holden um, it absolutely destroys the relationship between holden and alissa. Um, that there's. It is all. Absolutely correct that that is what would happen, and it lets all the queer characters be the heroes, like. Alyssa doesn't do anything wrong at any point, although I think that she is way too good for holding at every point and she she stands up for herself, has self-respect and is clear that this is like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she calls bullshit. She puts boundaries around her self-worth. Mm-hmm, sounds like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, as I said, hooper is like the moral center, yeah, of the film and is like gives really good advice that Holden is too stupid to take. So let me some background about the film that I didn't know until today. I knew that it was a personal film for Kevin Smith. I didn't know he wrote it based on. He was dating Joey Lauren Adams, who plays Alyssa, and he wrote the character for her. They dated for a little while.
Speaker 1:Kevin Smith had expected to live in the same 20 mile radius in New Jersey his entire life and while Adams is from Arkansas, when they had met, and even though they were both in their 20s, she had had what he described as a bigger life, she had like been to Bali and she had dated several different men and a bunch of different stuff. And when he learned about it he like felt inadequate and insecure and like basically felt like he wanted her to apologize for her entire life, up until they met, and he describes it as like he thought he of himself as this like progressive nineties guy, but as soon as it like hit his own insecurities, he wasn't, he couldn't be, and so he described this, this film, as being like therapy. Now Kevin Smith also has a brother who is gay and you know he grew up loving movies and he hated for his brother that there were no love stories in the gay community and so like he wanted to write something for his brother, ended up having this very like romantic friendship with a friend of Kevin's, a man named Scott Mosier, who was like producer for for all of Kevin's early works. They they met at that, you know, early Sundance and they just like really connected and so that that relationship that was like very weirdly romantic but completely asexual, was also something that he found interesting. So those are the, those are the things that kind of work together to write this film.
Speaker 1:And so the ben affleck character, holden, is a self-insert and uh like, uh, kevin smith says the only thing that's, you know, not like me at all is that I cast ben affleck, which was wish fulfillment. I was like, yeah, but kevin, I don't want to punch you in the face every time I see you. So I think that that, like there is an honesty to this film that I think is admirable. This is about a straight white man's growth, which is exactly what Kevin Smith went through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hear that, and it's unfortunate that that's the only queer representation we got. Well, right, so we have Hooper, but we don't see any love interest for Hooper, no, no. And we have alissa, who is in this like complicated space um, where she like falls in love with a mid dude because he's the author self-insert. And then banky, who is has a lot of internalized homophobia.
Speaker 1:So and I. So that was another aspect of it. I always took cooper saying banky loves you in ways that he hasn't dealt with yet to mean that banky didn't know what to do with, like the amount of affection he had for his, his best friend. I did not take it to mean that banky was closeted. Um, you did it, I did not. Now again, neurodivergent, and in you know, kevin smith keeps everything within the same universe, and so he. I've read about this because I haven't seen it. I don't know where it is, but somewhere further along the line in another movie. You see, banky and Hooper are dating.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting Okay.
Speaker 1:But to me it was just like what.
Speaker 2:It was just like what and part of it is like you see the way that Banky talks about women, talks about pornography, talks about sex, but that jibes for someone who is closeted and has a lot of internalized.
Speaker 1:So let me talk about my neurodivergence.
Speaker 2:So I do not get subtext.
Speaker 1:I don't think I am neurodivergent, but it takes me a little while to get subtext sometimes, and I especially don't get queer subtext, in part because I did not have any reason to learn what the markers were. With this film, Alyssa throughout says I'm gay, I'm gay, I'm gay. And so when she kisses Holden after, like screaming at him for like why are you putting me in this position? I was confused as hell. Like literally, I was just like what is happening here? What is going on in this movie? Now that gets to one of the things I like very much about myself, which is that I take people at their word and lessen until I have a reason not to, totally so, and I mind my own business like a motherfucker.
Speaker 1:I love that about myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know. Someone says they're gay, I believe them. Okay, right, right.
Speaker 2:Someone says they're not I believe them, because it's not I mean, and also theoretically, they know themselves better than you do, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly so, uh, and the same thing for me happened with the whole like banking Holden thing because, like, like there I didn't recognize any subtextual markers.
Speaker 2:I'm curious in rewatch now with this in mind, are the subtext markers there for Alyssa that she's by or pan or whatever before she, like kisses him? That is a good question um, because, like the way you talked, like he talks about women, like he degrades women, he talks about pornography, he's like, it's like he doth protest too much, yeah, which doesn't feel quite the same as I'm gay, I'm gay, I'm gay'm gay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, now I will say like the only aspect of it is that she seems drawn to Holden, which doesn't necessarily mean anything, because you can have like romantic friendships, like the one that this story is based on, but no, there's not really any subtext prior to that, and so that's part of the reason why people say, like you know why you had the idea of, like you know, you just need some deep dick in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it feels like mediocre, straight dude wish fulfillment In some ways. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:However, and as, as like in that documentary I mentioned, there is a really excellent case for this film accidentally being about bi erasure and biphobia. In that clips from things from the same same era, the late nineties, talking about how, like, uh, bisexuality doesn't exist. You know it's like you got to pick a side, pick a lane, and that you know the reaction of her friends like, oh, you're, you're you're betraying.
Speaker 1:You're switching sides. Yeah, yeah, totally so. That is not, I think, what necessarily Kevin Smith set out to do. Sure, so that is not, I think, what necessarily Kevin Smith set out to do. But it is a very good distillation of how that happens, how you feel like you have to pick a side.
Speaker 2:Well, it's another one of those cases where it's a little bit of a time capsule. Unfortunately, I don't think it's changed all that much. No, but he was reflecting something that was genuinely in the culture, whether or not he was intending to sort of talk about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me and also, I guess, thinking about subtext and whatever, if we read this character, it sounds like accurately as bisexual or pansexual or you know. But in this world with biphhobia, then her insistence that she's gay also makes a certain amount of sense. You know she's, she's actively having sex with women and so she's gay because she has to pick a side and that's the side she's playing for right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I will give Kevin Smith credit. He wrote Alyssa as an amazing character.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does sound that way.
Speaker 1:She's great and always has been. I've always, from the very beginning, liked that character and liked Joey Lauren Adams' portrayal of her, with the exception of like. Why are you with this guy? Yeah, yeah, totally her, with the exception of like. Why are you with this guy? Yeah, yeah, but okay, you know, whatever, and even at my most open to like accepting, you know, straight white cis man as the hero. I just do not have any patience for for holden at any point during the film. It's from his point of view, but he is not the hero and this is why I'm like alissa, you're too good for this. His pouting after realizing that she's gay, that that first night when she's kissing the other woman, and then he's like he's not having fun.
Speaker 1:He needs to leave yeah, it's not a good look I mean it's just, it's just, it's icky, and her saying like she's doing so much emotional labor, like, um, I think I made you uncomfortable, I made you uncomfortable, right, right, yeah, like it's somehow her fault yeah, or something that she needs to, and she's doing it correct.
Speaker 1:she needs to correct and she's doing it because she likes him, because she thinks she's like. It's been a long time since I've liked a guy and I want to hang out with you. You seem but like why there's nothing that interesting about this guy. So like, the other thing Kevin Smith does well is he writes really good banter and their banter is crackling. It's very, very funny. So like as an 18 year old watching it I was like, okay, you want more of that banter. But now I'm like you can get that anywhere. There are some really, really funny lesbians out there. Go find one of them, but that that's. You know he has to be a mid guy to react the way that he does for this movie to do what it does right.
Speaker 2:Right, because ultimately, the sort of the core of of the change that happens is is this mid dude growing and realizing he's mid, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, so quickly. I want to ask if it passes back down, because I heard the lesbians talk to one another, but it's not like they were talking about Holden.
Speaker 1:So they talk about a bunch of stuff, okay, so yeah, you see, and they all have names. They all have names. Yeah. Yeah, you see her talking to her girlfriend Kim about different stuff. There's the scene with friends. There's a scene at the end where she's talking to her friend who's there at the Comic-Con with her Right, right, cool cool, okay.
Speaker 2:So reminder listeners, the Bechdel test from Alison Bechdel from her zine Like to Watch Out For was are there at least two female characters with names? Do they talk to one another and do they talk about something other than a man or a boy? So it passes in multiple instances. So yay, so got that out of the way. Tell me about Sav Rogers, like tell me about how this. Now you said before we started recording that Sav is a trans man. I really want to hear more about how this film saved his life. Like I don't hear it. So tell me, how did that work?
Speaker 1:So when Sav was in middle school and was still Savannah, other people had sussed out his queerness, when he was not necessarily aware of it, and started to bully him in the ted talk he talks about.
Speaker 1:When he was 12 years old he really liked ben affleck and so, like he liked, uh, him in daredevil and so was looking for other ben affleck films and found chasing amy and this would have been in, like it sounds like 2008 or 2009, and so at that point, chasing the movies already 20 years old, oh, 10, 10 years old yeah, movies are 10 years old and like not in the zeitgeist anymore.
Speaker 1:You know it was big when it came out and but just not, it's not something that you know, generally a kansas preteen would find. So he found it and he ended up watching it over and over and over again, watching it, he said daily for 30 days, at least once a day For a month, for a month, but also like just over and over and over again watching it, and he talks about how it made him want to be a filmmaker and it gave him kind of a place to go to kind of escape the bullying, kind of a place to go to kind of escape the bullying. So, like watching the film gave him something to hope for and something to live for, that there was a potential future for him that wasn't just pain and people making decisions about him, about his sexuality.
Speaker 2:And was was that about? Because there were people lesbian because there were queer characters just queer in general, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So and sav also talks about how when he initially came out to his mother as pansexual, before he came out as trans, his mom didn't know what that meant and so he said like alissa and chasing amy. She said, oh, okay, and like I see, I see uh-huh, and so it kind of gave him a framework for who he could be that didn't rely on what other people thought about him, didn't rely on other people's assumptions of who he was and what he could do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Alyssa as sort of a role model who's like rejects I mean the monologue that you were telling me about where she sort of rejects what. I mean the monologue that you were telling about me about where she sort of rejects like what rejects limits either that other people put on her or that she has sort of decided to adopt on her own, rejecting them both. I can. I can see where that could be an important role model for a bullied queer kid who's coming to terms with his own queerness.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the multivalent layers of his queerness.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so he says very literally, this saved his life because he was suicidal. And the documentary is just lovely. Now for one, Kevin Smith is so generous and welcoming and at one point Sav says you told me when we first started talking that it was not possible for me to bother you, to just reach out to you. I wouldn't be bothering you and I struggle with that. But getting to meet you as a filmmaker is amazing and now I can count you as a friend.
Speaker 1:And there's a point because Sav had not transitioned when the Ted talk came out and when he and Kevin were first talking.
Speaker 1:So there's a point where Sav is interviewing Kevin and Kevin dead, names him by accident, like just cause he doesn't know, and Sav cuts and they go off camera and you see just text saying like Sav is telling Kevin that he is a trans man, but not exactly out yet and a little uncomfortable. And apparently Kevin said to him like I'm sorry you feel uncomfortable, Like I want you to feel like you can be your full self and screw people who have any problem with that, and it's just very much like be yourself, Like I'm here for you, I appreciate you. And Kevin also like gets choked up at one point saying, like you gave me my movie back because it has been. People really have a problem with it, for good reason. But knowing that something that Kevin Smith made saved the life of this young, young child who grew up to become a filmmaker is like the most wonderful thing. And he's like like you gave more to me than I ever gave to you.
Speaker 2:So that's sweet. I'm getting choked up. It's lovely.
Speaker 1:And then there's an interview with Joy Lauren Adams, which is a lot tougher. So Sav interviews Adams, sav interviews Adams and she says, like why do you want to talk to me? And Sav says, well, like I want to get to know you. And she's like but there are cameras here, like you could have come to a con and talked to me. Then You're doing this on camera. And so she's like I want you to ask me questions. No one asks me about Chasing Amy. And so, basically, adams talks about how she has no regrets about making this film and she's very glad to have been part of it and that it has had such meaning to Sav.
Speaker 1:But it was an awful experience for her because it was based on her. It was based on two years of feeling bad about herself because of how Kevin was, um, was so insecure, um. And then the experience of like the Kevin made the film independently and then took it to he had had Harvey Weinstein's contact and Harvey Weinstein said he might distribute it through Miramax, and so he took it to Weinstein and he watched the film and said this is a Miramax film. And Kevin Smith says like I can't feel sentimental about that because now we know what we know about Harvey Weinstein While I was there at Sundance is when he was raping Rose McGowan he's like. So I can feel sentimental about the young Kevin Smith who was so naive. I can feel sentimental about him. And so Adams's experience at Sundance was very different, because she's avoiding Harvey Weinstein and Harvey Weinstein didn't like her, which is a double-edged sword, because it meant she was safe from him. But her career never took off like Kevin Smith's did when it should have, did when it should have. And she talks about how she went through her own IMDb and was like, okay, so on that movie and that movie and that movie like someone sexually harassed me. And you know there's the. The AD is saying come sit on my lap and you, you have to do it, because if you don't then you're difficult to work with. No one wants to work with you. You're a difficult actress. And so she, she goes through all of this and Sav is saying like I'm, I'm. I still have to say I'm glad that you did it. And she's like I am too.
Speaker 1:But there is more to this than what you saw on the VHS tape, and part of what's gorgeous about this documentary is we see sav learning how to kind of let go of this film and like grow past his need for it because, uh, and you see him, um propose to his girlfriend and um like there's like and get married to her and the it ends with them talking about what they mean to each other and how. This is the love that he wanted and saw reflected in Chasing Amy, and he has found it with his girlfriend, who he met on Tumblr. They met on Tumblr and they talk about how their relationship started with the lie, because he really liked her and she really liked lord of the rings and so he claimed like lord of the rings too, because he wanted her to like him. It's adorable. So, um I it. What I loved about this documentary is it really got to like the both end that we talk about so much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like I think Sav thought he was already getting to that, because he interviews a lot of people who are like you know, queer studies experts and things like that, and talking about, like, what is problematic about the film. He was already like grappling with the fact that this thing that had such a profoundly good effect on him is also erasing other realities and like giving cover for, like some kind of ugly, homophobia and stuff like that. And so you can see he's like gobsmacked when Adams is telling him all this and he said I had to grow up over the course of an hour talking to her and like God bless Joy Lauren Adams for being like so open about it. She's and she ends it with saying like I didn't think I could go through another bullshit. Chasing Amy interview. I wanted you to ask me questions.
Speaker 1:No one asks me and in particular, because kevin smith talks about this as like this experience, like he was totally in love with with adams, and like this experience of like writing the film based on like his own insecurities, like they broke up after the film was made, and like he feels like feels like he sacrificed this relationship to have his career and to grow as a human being and all of that, and he wouldn't have chosen that if he'd known that's, that's what would have happened. And Adams is like that's not how it felt for me, you know, for him it's this kind of cute story of how he grew and for me it's a lot more painful and a lot uglier, and that's like they are still friends, like she's still, you know, happy to work with him and you know, be interviewed with him and stuff like that. But part of what makes this documentary so powerful is it shows the multiple realities that can exist within one thing.
Speaker 2:It's really interesting too, and a lot of the things that we have talked about on Deep Thoughts, about the ways in which emotional labor becomes invisible to the people for whom it is being done, I I think that this is like another data point in that truth that we have named here. On Deep Thoughts, you know, where Smith isn't fully aware, hasn't fully metabolized the work, the labor that Adams did for him and the suffering that she therefore experienced because of the labor that she was needing to do for him and not having it done, not having it reciprocated. And so I think that's a really, it's a really fascinating sort of echo from like what you're the story that you're telling me about Ch amy, it's a really fast. It like rhymes, right like the, the meta and the, the micro and the macro kind of rhyme in in what happened between alissa and holden and what happened between adams and smith, which makes sense, since they were self insert or inserts or inserts of of the actual, the actors, the characters were actor inserts and also like I don't know, there's something true in my head about that and and I love that this young filmmaker was able to love that this young filmmaker was able to show that and and like not and feel it too Like I just had to grow up a lot in the last hour is a really powerful thing to hear from this young person you know about this movie it's it's hard to.
Speaker 2:It's hard to see the dirty, you know, hard to. It's hard to see the dirty, you know, underside of something that you loved and also like so important in order to actually interact with the world and make better choices. So I don't know, there's something that's like just feels alive to me in that. I'm really glad that you shared that piece of of what you learned.
Speaker 1:What? Where I was left at the end of the documentary was feeling like. Kevin Smith is a reflective sweet, well-meaning and a little oblivious.
Speaker 2:Totally. I mean, that's how privilege works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he's trying, he's really trying. That's how privilege works. Yeah, and like he's trying, he's really trying. But you know, even like Joy Lauren Adams didn't say all of that in front of Smith. Right.
Speaker 2:Presumably he's seen it now. Yes and I.
Speaker 1:I. I suspect that like this will become, because he's someone who, who, who does grow and change, like it's very clear that he has spent time thinking about these things and trying to be a better person. And like my spouse was in the room while I was watching, like he wasn't specifically watching with me but, um, and like afterwards we were talking a little bit about the documentary and I was saying like I really want, like I would love to sit down and have a drink with Kevin Smith. He seems like he would be a great person to sit down and talk to, but I really want to talk to Joy Lauren Adams, because fewer people want to do that. And like I kind of want to take on some of the stories that she has had to carry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, it's just, she is carrying a lot of pain that people don't care about, and that gets into the part of like the criticism of the film as well, which is like it's a straight white man's way into understanding the queer community, because it's from the point of view of Holden queer community, because it's from the point of view of Holden, and like there's something very good and honest about it for that reason, because it's about how Kevin Smith went through that experience in terms of seeing you know women fully as people, and also in seeing like the queer community and and like recognizing his own biases and prejudices and things like that and homophobia. And if we had real queer representation, that would be no problem whatsoever. Like this this story is, is is one story that's, you know, deserves to be told because it can help people and it is honest and truthful and real. And stories of growth are always, I think, useful. The problem is we don't have queer representation, so all we get is how it affects a white guy.
Speaker 2:Well, especially in 97. Yeah, Especially in 97. I feel like we do have a lot more now than we did then, like these, however many years, 30 years later, but in 97 we didn't at all. Yeah, all right. Well, we've been talking for a minute. Any other like core, like insights or analysis that you want to share? Before I try and synthesize?
Speaker 1:is. There is a point where Hooper is not exactly complaining but talking about how it's considered kind of cute for women to be lesbians. And, specifically, joy Lauren Adams is Alyssa because she is, you know, thin blonde, you know, wears makeup. And he talks about like I'm the marginalized of the marginalized in the marginalized because he's a black gay man. And so there is something very interesting there, particularly in the late nineties, when the idea of women having sex with other women was very much fetishized. You probably remember, like you know, madonna kissing, like, I think, britney Spears on MTV and like it was a thing.
Speaker 1:And it's clear that Hooper's not mad at Alyssa. He's just like you know who's supporting my ass, lissa. He's just like you know who's supporting my ass. It's like he just recognizing the intersectionality of these various marginalizations and how that can be tough. That moment is actually very, very progressive, even in 2025, watching this film, because hooper makes it clear that this is like he's frustrated, but not at his friend. He's frustrated at the systems that are causing this to happen. He's frustrated about the fact that he doesn't feel any kind of support from anyone because he's marginalized, you know in multiple ways.
Speaker 1:So like that's something that Kevin Smith really got right and I feel like we can see that again in the Chasing, chasing Amy documentary in his reaction to Sav coming out to him, you know, is like hey, I recognize, like this is tough and like I'm here to support you in any way I can. So that that, I think, is really important to kind of lift up. The other thing is that although characters slut shame Alyssa, the movie does not. The movie makes it clear that Holden is wrong for being weirded out about this and it makes it clear that Alyssa is absolutely right in saying like these are my choices and they're mine.
Speaker 2:And it's none of your business and you have nothing to say about it. Yeah, I'm not going to apologize All those things and I'm not going to apologize and I'm not your whore, yeah, so we're done.
Speaker 1:We're done going to apologize, all those things. I'm not going to apologize and I'm not your whore, yeah, so you know, we're done. We're done here. That is something else that I think is, for 1997, really progressive, because even in 2025 I'm not sure that a film would be able to have that be a part of a character's past without the film in some way Shaming her for it, yeah, and like I really appreciate that, because we don't get enough of that, that's you know promiscuity is anything other than like something to judge.
Speaker 2:It's just like. It's just who she is, he's mid right, like the ways in which he is just fucking basic and like wants to do better and and in that sense like it's. It's raw and true and real and also like, especially in 97, like it kind of sucks that we had to sort of think about queerness from the POV of a straight white cis, basic dude. I heard some really interesting things about this female character of Alyssa, really interesting things about this female character in of Alyssa who is just who she is, does a great job of defending her boundaries and her worth and sort of saying like no, you don't get to do that, you don't get to do that and leaving and like right on at the same time, like the character and the actress ended up doing a whole bunch of emotional labor that was completely unrecognized, in both the fictional and the non-fictional realms, by the person for whom the labor was being done. Unintentionally.
Speaker 2:Smith is telling a story about bi erasure in Alyssa and as a result of that reality, this was very confusing to a young neurodivergent, emily, when Alyssa is like I'm gay, I'm gay, I'm gay, and then all of a sudden she's putting her tongue into Ben Affleck's mouth or Holden's mouth, holden's mouth, so which I think is a part of the bi erasure. I also wonder I asked the question and I'm not sure that we had a full answer about whether or not there was subtext that you missed because of your neurodivergence, or if it was missing because there's a certain degree, to which sort of the lesbian who like realizes she wants at least this dick. There's a certain wish fulfillment in that, and since Holden is a Kevin Smith like, self-insert, like, was the subtext actually there?
Speaker 1:There is one glorious moment in the documentary where Sav is interviewing I don't remember what the expertise this person had, but a trans woman about the film. And Sav is saying I used to resonate with Holden, but he's got that awful goatee and he wears two big flannel and jeans that don't fit. And the trans woman says no wonder the lesbian went for him. And Sav says well, that's going in the documentary. Well, I mean, that's why the, the mid guy so let me see.
Speaker 2:I think at the end we spent some time talking about the fact that, though characters attempt to slut shame alissa for some of her past sexual exploits, the film never does which we really appreciate. It does pass bechdel, so there's some great banter, which is cool, and also, like, come on Alyssa, there are bantery lesbians and I mean, like, my takeaway about the film this is not exactly analysis is that, like Alyssa is a badass and Holden is never good enough for her. Another sort of piece of that is that ultimately, like the film knows that, which is kind of cool and which is why it's not in fact a romance or a romantic comedy, because they do not end up together, because he's not good enough for her and sort of what he does is like you can't come back from it, and I think the genre would ask us to come back from it and see her forgive him in some way if it had not been an independent film, they might have they might have made that ended it differently.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but actually the, the sort of no, she doesn't, we don't, we don't force her to conform, which is her thing, like that's her manifesto is that she doesn't conform, so so that's, that's pretty cool. And then the extra layer that you brought in with this documentary that you saw from the filmmaker, saf Rogers, who found solace in this film and I named it as, like Alyssa kind of a of the character being a role model of someone who doesn't allow themselves to be forced to be limited based on others or even her own kind of arbitrary, limiting beliefs, which, for a preteen queer kid in Kansas who's being bullied, was literally lifesaving. It sounds like also to have had that experience with this. You know, a piece of media that changes your life in that way, and then to have the opportunity to make a movie about it and to grow up about it because of the intervention of the actress, joy lauren adams, yeah, saying yeah, I'm, I'm glad I did it and I'm glad it helped you, but it was not a good experience for me, and here's all the terrible things that happened and here's why being an actress has been not a bed of roses and, like the, you know, putting it in the context of what we know now about Harvey Weinstein and the abuse that was just the way he did business, is really really powerful and, I think, important, especially for this young and queer filmmaker. So that was a really cool piece of it and that like the kind of rhymes of that, the echoes of that up and down in sort of concentric circles from the film, are really interesting.
Speaker 2:Like you named, the moment when Hooper, the black gay character who has to sort of put on a total mask in order to sell he has to live into a stereotype that is not him in order to sell his comic gives this speech about being, you know, multiply, marginalized, and sort of shows like the concept of intersectionality, which I'm not sure if it had even been coined yet by Kimberly Crenshaw in 97. It may have been, I just don't know but. But that sort of like seeing the ways in which the systems kind of multiply, marginalized, and having the character know who to be mad at, which is the systems and not his friend, who is marginalized differently, who is sort of whose nonstandard sexual orientation is fetishized and is deemed as cute and not threatening and not threatening. So that's really really interesting that you brought in that, I think, kind of echoes up and down the layers of storytelling that we're seeing, from the movie Chasing Amy to the documentary that Sav Rogers made about the effect of the movie on his life, to sort of the story that came out as a result of the documentary of what was happening in the actor's lives to you know, even like the kind of meta story of what was happening in the entertainment industry with Harvey Weinstein. So that was a really kind of cool like layered effect of of that reality. That that was really interesting.
Speaker 2:We talked about more. Is there what, what, what? Did I not say that you want to make sure we kind of reiterate?
Speaker 1:I think the the both end aspect of like Kevin Smith in this film and then also Kevin Smith as, as as a director and a person like, is clearly learning and growing and his privilege protects him from growing as much as I think he might want to. I think he probably was when he saw Sav's documentary he was probably horrified to see what Joey had to say, because she's a friend Like and he there's a. What Holden says to her character is like I have been profoundly changed by loving you and I can't ever regret that. And Kevin Smith says like. That is how he felt, so like that.
Speaker 1:That is another aspect of it that I wasn't expecting. Like I've known he's, he seems like a pretty nice guy, like that's. That's what I've known about Kevin Smith, but haven't really seen much of it of of anything else. Like I've I've known he like likes to mentor young, young filmmakers and things like that. But you know, don't really know much about him. But this documentary made it clear to me that he has growth to do still and he is welcome, welcoming it.
Speaker 2:He is open to it, and what is difficult for him probably is partially his privilege, and then also letting go of his insecurities that he still probably has, you know, all these years later in the film like he thought of himself as a progressive guy and then something that triggered his insecurity and it triggered it and and and it was like sort of that surprise that he wasn't as kind of with it as he thought he was.
Speaker 1:That really like rang true to me yeah, in like my experience of people and myself even Well, and that's, that's even a little bit like what happens with Sav, with the interview with, with, with Adams.
Speaker 2:Right Sav thought that he understood what was problematic about the movie. Yes, and there was a whole layer that he was completely unaware of.
Speaker 1:And Sav, he wears this jean jacket. It's got patches on it and a patch along the back says feminist, and so like the fact that that was something like when he knew about the allegations against Harvey Weinstein. He knew all of those things and that it hadn't occurred to him.
Speaker 2:That would have affected.
Speaker 1:Joey, that would have affected Joy Lauren Adams and, like you know and was part of making this film that was so profoundly positive on his life. So like you know that that happens. Like you think you know what's going on and then you're hit with something and you realize like, oh, I don't know if I can handle this. You know, listeners, I really highly recommend it's on Amazon Prime. You can rent it on Amazon Prime. But Chasing, chasing Amy by Sav Rogers had me in tears multiple times. It's lovely.
Speaker 2:I mean just you telling me about it made me choke up. So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's just an amazing documentary and I see great things for Sav Rogers coming forward. Cool, cool.
Speaker 2:Well, that was really interesting. It was not at all the movie I thought that we were going to be talking about, so that's pretty cool. So next week next week I am going to revisit Dead Again. Do you remember that one with Kevin Branagh and Emma Thompson? Kenneth Branagh, did I say Kevin? I said Kevin because of Kevin Smith. Kenneth Branagh Thank you for correcting me yeah, kenneth Prada and Emma Thompson when they were still together. Oh, yeah, yeah, I, I loved that movie so much and I haven't seen it in a long time, so I'm looking forward to watching it again, curious to see if it's still good yeah, I'm curious.
Speaker 2:So well, next time, listeners, you will find out. Next time, do you? You will find out Next time quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?