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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about Big
Okay…but I get to be on top!
Tracie loved revisiting the 1988 Penny Marshall-helmed film Big this week. Tom Hanks’ performance of a 12-year-old boy wearing a grown man’s body is laugh-out-loud funny, and the film asks some profoundly important questions about how grownups can hold onto their childlike joy and wonder. But the love story between Hanks’ Josh Baskin and Elizabeth Perkins’ Susan–an actual adult woman–never sat well with either Guy girl. The sisters discuss how this film would not work if it were gender-swapped, why it seems to reinforce the idea that women should mother their romantic partners, and their theory that the sexual and romantic component of the story was potentially from studio meddling.
No need to ask Zoltar for a wish–just plug in your headphones and take a listen.
CW: Discussions of grooming
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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You say nobody did anything wrong, and I think that's true of the characters. I'm not sure it's true of the storytellers, because I think they could have told this story and got at the interesting questions that are genuinely interesting, without having him have sex with a grown-ass adult, what others might deem stupid shit. You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. We're sisters, tracy and Emily, collectively known as the Guy Girls. Every week, we take turns re-watching, researching and reconsidering beloved media and sharing what we learn. Come overthink with us and if you get value from the show, please consider supporting us. You can become a patron on Patreon or send us a one-time tip through Ko-fi. Both links are in the show notes and thanks.
Speaker 1:I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be talking about the 1988 Penny Marshall film Big, starring Tom Hanks, with my sister, emily Guy-Burken, and with you. Let's dive in. All right, em. I know you've seen Big because I'm pretty sure we saw it together, but tell me what you remember about the film.
Speaker 2:I remember the giant piano and playing chopsticks with his feet. I remember being a little weirded out by the love story even as a kid.
Speaker 2:And not getting the first time I saw it when he has the love interest, stay over at his apartment and she's like, can I stay over? He's like, okay, but I get to sleep on top and it's because he had bunk beds and not getting what she thought he meant. He actually says I get to sleep on top and it's because he had bunk beds and, um, not getting what she thought he meant yeah, he actually says I get to be on top, be on top yeah, and and like it was years later, I was just like, oh, that is, why is that in a kid's movie?
Speaker 2:I remember really thinking the Zoltron machine, zoltar, zoltar, zoltar, zoltar machine was really cool. And then this is like just how weird little Emily was wired. I remember feeling bad for the actor who played the kid version of Tom Hanks, because he's playing the main character but he's got a smaller part than the kid playing his best friend, really, yeah. And so like I remember being like you know it was this big break, but it's a minor part. So, you know, I remember, like the toy company, oh, and when he gets his again, this is you know I remember like the toy company, oh, and when he gets his again, this is you know little future financial expert. Like when he gets his first paycheck and he's like, oh, my God, that's so much money.
Speaker 2:And I think even as a kid I was like how far is that going to go? You know, future financial expert. So you know there are other little things like silly string and stuff like that, but uh, you know, that's that's. That's about the, the extent of it. Um, I I also, as I have gotten older, have been more disturbed by what his parents went through. Yeah, since that is not silly, funny hijinks. So so, yeah, that's like there's, there's, there's quite a bit in there. There's a lot of furniture in my mind. So tell me, why are we talking about big today?
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is one of the ones, like another one, that I don't have any like super poignant stories about this one, but it is definitely one of the kind of comedies of our childhood that just really, like it took up a lot of imagination space at the time, like I even have vague memories of talking, like the three of us you, me and Chris, our first cousin about, like what we would do if we could, you know, make that wish, or or if we could, you know, have access wish or um, or if we could, you know, have access to Zoltar to make a wish, or if we woke up one day and we're growing up, it was like fodder for a lot of like, conversation and imagination, and so, you know, while we're sort of doing this project, it ended up on the list and I was like, yeah, let's check that one out. I haven't seen it in a long time. So so here we are. So I think we're going to talk.
Speaker 1:I want to talk about emotional intelligence and wonder and play, which this movie is all about. I also do want to talk about, uh, gender and sexuality, because the romance piece still as a grownup, uh, uh, yeah, so we'll get into that and and and I think I'd also like to in terms of the gender question I do with you want to talk about the fact that this film was directed by Penny Marshall. This, so this was like her thing in a time when there were very few female directors and still I'm not sure it passes Bechdel, and so like I want to talk about like that that we've we talk about all the time, but sort of how that happens with even a female creator, that there's still like really lack of representation.
Speaker 2:That sense that, yeah, we'll let you play, but you got to play by our rules still.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and and and to. I'm in a lot of ways, I think Penny Marshall didn't play by the rules, but in in some ways, obviously, like she still was. So anyway, I'd like to talk about that at least a little bit. But those are the big things that I want to talk about as sort of like maturity, emotional maturity and maturity in general, like what, what, what is it that we think it means to be an adult? Because that's fundamentally, I think, what this movie is asking. And gender sexuality, you know, as it's plays plays out in this film. And and relationships, maybe. Well, we'll get there. And and then about sort of the role of Penny Marshall as a prominent female director when there weren't very many. And still, this film, I'm not sure, passes back down. So but before we get there, let me give um a plot synopsis, which I think maybe I can actually do more quickly. So we meet. Maybe I can, I don't know, I'm not very good at it as regular listeners.
Speaker 2:Now, so I feel like we start every like this will be quick this time, yeah.
Speaker 1:Every time it's just like 30 minutes three hours later, like my synopsis is longer than the actual movie. So, um, okay, so we meet Josh, uh, josh Baskin and his best friend Billy. They're together all the times. They're next door neighbors. They're, uh, 13 years old and they do 13 year old boy stuff. So you know, they're riding their bikes, they're singing this weird song that maybe they made up, but they know every single lyric and they have like a little dance that goes with it.
Speaker 1:And we see them, they are, they do. They talk about one of their female teachers who when she bends over you can see down her blouse and they're like Ooh boobies. They don't say that, but that's the attitude. And then they, we see them kind of admire a young girl their age or maybe a year older, whose name I don't remember, but it doesn't matter. She's got a side pony, she's very 1980s, and she greets Josh and he's like dumbstruck and can't say hello. So we sort of see that boyish interest in girls, but still very much at arm's length.
Speaker 1:And then at a carnival, josh is there with his parents and his baby sister and he sees the girl, the side pony girl, in line for a scary, not a roller coaster, but a ride that would make me throw up and it's a scary one. And he says I want to go on this one, cause he sees the girl and his parents are like are you sure? And he's like, yeah, I want to go on this one. And so they're like, okay, and they give him the tickets and they say we'll meet at the Ferris wheel in 30 minutes. So he like pushes his way to the, to the, up the line to be next to her, and she's like, oh hey, josh, and whatever. They're talking.
Speaker 1:And then another boy comes up who can drive, so an older boy. They get to the front of the line and Josh can't get on the ride because you have to be this tall to ride and he's not tall enough. So he is dejected and I think, to the film's credit, to Penny Marshall's credit, the two older kids are not cruel, like, they actually are very kind and like they get on the ride anyway. They don't like not go because Josh can't, but at no point do they make fun of him or in any way kind of belittle him. So I think that's really like. I want to highlight that Because I think in the hands of a different director he would have been demeaned by, by the people. So the circumstance makes him feel bad about himself, but the other people with him do not. They're sort of like oh, too bad, we'll catch up with you later, like, but in no way like here. Too little, like, none of that so which is?
Speaker 2:that's a really interesting counterpoint.
Speaker 1:I've been thinking a lot about goonies, which we talked about recently, and like how the bullies are just over the top, cartoonish yep, and that's exactly actually thinking about goonies, I think, is why it stood out to me that these other kids were not at all cruel to josh. So, but he's totally dejected because this girl he had a crush on, like he looked diminished, uh, quite literally uh, in her eyes because he couldn't get on and and like he tried to argue with the carnival ride guy and he was like I'll make the rules, you know Anyway. So he walks away, dejected, and we, the camera sort of follows him through this, like like outdoor arcade with the carnival, where kids are playing lots of video games, until he's face to face with the Zoltar machine, which is this fortune teller. So, and he's intrigued by it, you stick a quarter in the top and then you have to direct this like sort of ramp, to put it in Zoltar's mouth. His mouth is opening and closing, his eyes are red, it's like a torso of a human, and then different things light up to tell you what to do.
Speaker 1:So then you make a wish and then you press the button, and if the quarter do so, then you make a wish and then you press the button, and if the quarter goes into his mouth and your wish is granted, he says I wish I were big. That's his wish. He realizes that the machine isn't even plugged in, but it was lighting up. Whatever. He goes home, goes to sleep and then in the morning his mom is like calling for him. It's time to get up, it's time to go to school. She's making breakfast and we see these legs like drop over the side of the bunk bed and they're an adult man's legs and it's Tom Hanks. And so it's Tom Hanks wearing these, like 12 year old boys.
Speaker 2:With like pictures on it.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, I laughed out loud in this movie multiple times. So Hanks does an amazing job Like embodying a 12 year old boy, realizing he's in the body of a 32 year old man or whatever, and like looking in the mirror and like feeling his face and like looking at his body and the chest hair, like opening the waistband of the underpants a little bit. It's so funny, anyway. So he goes into his dad's room and he gets oh, actually very funny scene where he's trying to put on the 12 year old boy's pants and falls over, or 13. Anyway, so he puts on his dad's clothes and he goes and he rides back to where the carnival was the night before to try and find the Zoltar, and it has been totally packed up. So there's no, there's nothing, there's no Zoltar, there's just detritus on the field overlooking the river I guess it's the Brooklyn bridge, maybe in the background, anyway, like, oh shit, he can't, there's nothing he can do.
Speaker 1:So he rides back home and he comes in the house and his mom is, um, I don't you know, doing something at the house and she's like who are you? What are you doing here? And she, you know, she's freaking the fuck out from this like man who just walked into her house and at first he thinks that she's mad because he didn't wipe his feet, because he just wants to go back out, wipes his feet, comes back in and she's like what she's like? Throws her purse at him and like and and. And he's like no, it's me, it's josh, and he's trying to prove that he's him. So he's telling her all this, these details about josh, and so she's like what have you done with my son? Um, so she basically chases him out and and is freaking out, thinks that that her son has been kidnapped by this man. So that's the bit that you're like as an adult. I'm like oh man, that's not, it's just disturbing.
Speaker 2:I have children about that age and yeah, yeah, yeah, disturbing. Um, I I like to think now, like you know, they wouldn't recast my kid as tom hanks, right? I like to think that I'd recognize, like you know, you look like my kid the older version of my kid. I mean, obviously you're not expecting a 32 year old man when you're 13 year old. Yes, who went to bed in that night, but still anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is to convince Billy that he is himself with this silly song that they had been singing. So Billy believes him. So they, they cut school and they go. They're going to go find the Zoltar. They look at all the like arcades and all the like sales places. They can't find Zoltar. So they go to public records to try and get a list of all the carnivals, to try and find where the Zoltar might be, and it's going to take six weeks.
Speaker 1:So they set Josh up in this little like shitty motel where it's like 1750 for a night and $10 deposit for the sheets, like it is bad, it is real bad, and Billy can't stay. So Josh is there by himself and there's a very believable, plausible scene where Josh ends up as Tom Hanks, the 13-year-old boy in Tom Hanks' body, just curled up fetal on this nasty bed, crying, which is very plausible and sweet. And so they decide he needs to get a job. He gets a job as a computer operator, which is basically like data entry at a toy company, and John Lovitz is his cubicle mate and gives him a tip that that woman all you got to do is say hi to her and she'll wrap her legs around you so tight, you'll be screaming for mercy or something like that, and Josh is like, okay, I'll be sure to stay away from her then.
Speaker 2:Okay, that is so wholesome. In some ways that's kind of adorable. So it's, it's a. It's an indictment of the toxic masculinity.
Speaker 1:Yeah totally, you know like that.
Speaker 2:It's not learned at that age? Yeah, yet yeah.
Speaker 1:So in his first week on his job, maybe even the first day, he's like rushing around the corner and ends up like smacking like hard, like falls down on his butt, uh, into the, the owner of the company, mr McMillan they work for McMillan toys and then two other people it's um, susan and Paul. So that's John heard and John heard as Paul, and Elizabeth Perkins as Susan, and like paper scatter everywhere. And so Mr McMillan is is is the big boss. And he's like where are you rushing to? And Josh says, well, I got to get these papers to Xerox room because they need it on by five. And so Mr McMillan is like I'd like to see some hustle, nice work, nice work. So anyway, they walk away. So that was establishing that Mr McMillan has seen this dude, nice work. So anyway, they walk away. So that was establishing that Mr McMillan has seen this dude.
Speaker 1:There's a moment he gets his first paycheck, as you remember, $187. And he and Billy spend it on like pizza and video games and stuff. And then he goes to FAO Schwartz on the weekend, like the big flagship store in New York, and he's just playing. So we see him playing, I guess, laser tag with another kid who he doesn't know, cause we see, like, while they're playing together, like what's your name? I'm John, what's your name, john, you know. So they're playing, so the other kid gets him with the laser tag, with the gun, and he does this big dramatic death where he's like laying on the floor like twitching, and Mr McMillan comes over and is like don't you work for me? And he's like yes, I do. So he gets up and McMillan and Josh are now walking through FAO Schwartz and Josh is like telling him about the toys he likes and he doesn't like and why he likes them and things that changed and why he didn't like the change, and blah, blah, blah, basically just showing that he gets toys, and Macmillan is clearly impressed. And then they're talking and they walk and step accidentally on that giant piano that you remember and Josh is like neat, and he tosses the bag he's been carrying so he can play more easily on the piano and starts doing the one hand of heart and soul. And Macmillan says, oh, did you take piano lessons? Me too. And so he gets on the piano and does the other hand for heart and soul and then they do chopsticks together and they're having a great time and all these people gather around and are watching and they just have a really good time together. That is a magical scene. That is a magical scene. It is a magical scene. So, because of that encounter at FAO, schwartz Macmillan promotes him to like VP of innovation or something. That's not what it is, but it's something like that, like a made up title, where basically his job is just to play with toys and tell them what he thinks about them.
Speaker 1:Paul and Susan, who we now see are actually together we cause we see them eating breakfast together in their pajamas at one of their apartments are like who the hell is this guy? You know? Like where did he come from? We see, um, an important scene where they're in a meeting where Paul is presenting a new product and he's got all kinds of data about like tests and markets and blah, blah, blah about a building that transforms into a robot and Josh is there playing with it and like the arms come off and he's like whatever. And while Paul is doing his like very important presentation, paul gets to the end of his presentation Does anybody have any questions? And Josh is like I don't get it.
Speaker 1:What's fun about a building? Like like, if we're going to make a robot turn into something it should be, I don't know like a bug, like a prehistoric bug with like big pincers and stuff, and like Paul feels totally humiliated by this and thinks that Josh did it on purpose, in sort of a like passive, aggressive, sort of take him down, humiliate him kind of way. Which in fact masculinity, exactly which in fact josh was just like. I mean, what's fun about a building? It just stands there. So there's that rivalry we see kind of playing out in the background. Meanwhile, there's just a a number of things. There's like a big party. Josh rents this ridiculous tuxedo with rhinestones all over it.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's right, and he has the tiny corn.
Speaker 1:Yes, he eats it like corn on the cob. Yes, he's at this party and he's doing the most like eating from the buffet in the most ridiculous ways, including like the like little corn, like from chinese food, the hic, like because he's never seen it before. And, um, and susan comes over and she is intrigued by him like she doesn't. Like I guess she maybe thought he did it on purpose too, although it was was great ideas. Like she's intrigued by the good ideas, good toy ideas that he's got. So she comes over and she's sort of chatting him up and she's like this is beluga, it's caviar, and she says McMillan flies it in every year and so they each take some and Josh hates it. Like he like like literally like gags and like spits it out, let's fall out of his mouth. He's wiping his tongue with a napkin. Anyway, they leave and she, she has a car waiting outside, it's a limo. So they, they go and get in the limo and he's like playing with all of the things, like the, the door lock up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, and like the lights and whatever he stands up, he says ejector seat and he stands up and puts his head out the, his torso out the moonroof and invites her to do this, or sunroof, invites her to do the same. And they end up back at his house Because he has in the since he got the VP job, he's moved out of the shithole and has rented this big loft apartment that he's filled with pinball machines and Pepsi machines and stuff. So they end up back at his apartment where you that seemed that you remember where she's. She's sort of she. She thinks that a romance is happening and she's like maybe this is too early. And he's like what's too early? And she's like maybe this is too early. And he's like what's too early. And she's like, well, me staying over and? And he's like you mean like a sleepover? I mean okay, but I get to be on top. It's really funny. So they go in and there's another magical scene. He's got a giant trampoline, like a full-size trampoline in this loft apartment and they end up jumping on it and she's she like has these like tiny little small jumps? He's like, no, do it for real. And they end up like he has to really coax her and show her how to do, like that it's okay to do it, but they end up like really like just jumping and having fun. And the camera actually goes from outside the apartment, like looking in the big windows and she's like jumping and bouncing on, like bouncing on her tush and bouncing back up, and she's like just having fun. So that happens.
Speaker 1:Paul gives her a hard time about having left with Josh the next day. Josh is getting more and more important and Billy like having less and less time for Billy. And then it's Josh's birthday and Billy wants to do something else. But Josh has a date and on that day he goes back to Susan's and they they start kissing. She takes her blouse off, they start kissing she takes her blouse off and we see him sort of touch her boob and kiss her again and the scene cuts.
Speaker 1:But then the next morning he's walking into work like very standing up, very tall and wearing a, like a. His clothes have been getting better and now they're really good like well-tailored suit and like asks for coffee from his uh, his secretary, ms Patterson Deborah Jo Rupp plays her who is like but you don't drink coffee, so we're meant to know that he had sex. So, again, like more and more important, he's pitching a new idea he and Susan are working on. It's an electronic comic book. It's like a choose your own adventure kind of comic book electronic that you could buy different things for us. They're working on this pitch.
Speaker 1:She's trying to have a conversation about their relationship. He has no idea what is happening, like there's a lot of those sorts of misunderstandings. Then Paul challenges him to like says come with me, and they go and they play I think it's racket, but I don't know what it is Some sort of racket game that's played outdoors and there. At first Paul is beating him but then he's pulling his own and then Paul breaks his own rule Cause it was like over the line on a serve and he had said to and he definitely did say to Josh at the beginning it has to be under the line for the server, vice versa. And so Josh was like no, it's my go, cause you said, and he's like I didn't say that, I didn't say it.
Speaker 1:And it turns into this ridiculous power struggle for the ball, like on the ground, like Josh like trying to cause Tom Hanks is taller than uh John Hurd, so like trying to keep it away from him. And then I mean absolutely ridiculous, laugh out loud, funny. And then we see, uh, susan sort of tending him, and he says he didn't have to punch me. Anyway. She breaks up with um, this is probably out of order. I do this every time, folks, I'm sorry. She breaks up with Paul and he's like what does he have that I don't have?
Speaker 2:And she says he's a grownup, which is you know uh, I remember that line too, Cause it was just like and intention, I mean intentionally intentionally, but it's so funny in part because she has good reason for saying that.
Speaker 1:Right, because I mean, she even says, when she's tending the punch or you know, the the broken it's not a broken nose, but just like the wounds from from the scuffle. She says to Josh, like, when he's like, why didn't you, why did he punch me? And she says, well, he's scared of you because you won't play his games. And he's like I tried to play his game, he changed the rules. You know that actually, that scene probably happened before they had sex. Um, now that I think about it, but it doesn't really matter anyway, he tries to tell her that he's actually a kid and she thinks he's like breaking up with her, like we're all kids, you think there's not a scared, a scared little girl inside of me. And like he's trying to explain he wants to go home. He actually, like billy, had confronted him and was like you, for what's, what's wrong with you? Man, like, and he, because he's gotten into the whole like, um, the rat race of of this corporate life that he's living and the presentations he has to do and the marketing reports he has to read. And he's like Billy, this is important. And Billy's like what? I'm your best friend, I'm three months older than you, asshole. And so he you know, he kind of like has this moment of realizing like yeah, he really does want to go home. So he's trying to explain to Susan what's going on and obviously she doesn't believe him.
Speaker 1:So the next day, in the middle of the presentation for the comic book thing, paul's a jerk and is like I don't get it. But everybody else is like no, it's actually really cool. And Josh is just like I got to go and he just leaves because Billy has told him where to find this altar. They got the results of the or the, they got the stuff from the consumer affairs and Billy knows where Zoltar is. So Josh just leaves and Billy's outside and hears him go. And then Susan realizes oh, he was telling me the truth. Like somehow something clicks and she realizes he actually is a kid. So she follows him out, asks Billy where he's going. Billy's like who the hell are you? And she's like I'm his girlfriend. So Billy tells her, so she actually goes and meets him at the park where it is. He's just made the wish and they're talking about it and he says maybe you could come with me and she's like I don't want to do that again.
Speaker 1:I did it already and she's like how old are you? Like 15, 16. And he says I'm 13. She drives him home to his house and he's like walking toward the house and like waves at her. She looks down, looks back up and it's the original actor, the child actor, in Tom Hanks's suit. He goes into the house and we hear the mom like squeal that he's home, and then the movie ends with Billy and Josh sort of back in their usual 13 year old antics.
Speaker 1:So that was probably a little out of order. I don't think it really matters. He wished to be big. He had a grownup experience. He wished to be small again, or a child. It wished to be a kid again is actually the wish that's made. So so that's the basic, what happened, and so, um, I guess the fundamental questions I think the Penny Marshall was interested in talking about were about adulting.
Speaker 1:You know, though, we wouldn't have said that in 1988. But sort of like, what does it mean to be an adult and mature? And like, what is maturity actually Like? I think those are the questions that Penny Marshall was interested in with this film film, and I think she asks them in interesting ways, right by having Susan say what she likes about Josh, who is in fact 13, that he's a grownup, like that's a fundamental indictment of the kind of politicking that we do as adults for power and status. Right, josh doesn't do that, it doesn't occur to him to do that, and Susan reads that as mature, and so I think, like Marshall was sort of asking us to think about what actually is maturity Right. So I think that's that's really interesting. I think she also like part and parcel with that was sort of a invitation to adults to play Right and to remember just the what is generative and joyful and wonderful about play, because that's like Josh just plays all the time and and in fact, no, and with no agenda, with no agenda.
Speaker 1:It's just for the joy of it, right? And in fact at one point Paul and Susan are in the car together before they've broken up and the stock market reporter is on or something on the radio and she starts messing with it to put it on music and he's like why are you always playing with things? And she just sort of giggles, so like it's text and successful owns this toy company, right, that everybody's jockeying for his approval and like access to him. And he has never lost his sense of play, like he actually tells Josh when they run into each other at FAO Schwartz, he goes there every Sunday to actually, because marketing reports can't tell you what you can see in the toy store, at which point. At which point Josh says what's a marketing report? And McMillan's like exactly.
Speaker 2:That also, that like that fits, talking about really realism in a, in a movie about magically becoming an adult. But it makes sense that the successful ceo of a toy company would be someone who is able to balance the ability to maintain that childlike wonder and sense of play and joy with the business requirements necessary being able to read, like he can read, a marketing report.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he also yeah so and he knows, he knows where those fit in into this. Successful and that's like, in some ways, that gives us this is what it looks like. To be a successful adult is is to to be able to walk the like, maintain that childlike wonder, while also understanding what your adult responsibilities are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And like Macmillan allows himself to play, he also recognizes the value in Josh's play, which I think so. So that piece of the text and subtext of this movie, I think it's remains like really powerful, like it's still reads relevant and and poignant and real to me.
Speaker 2:Well, and there's a reason why the, the, the scene on the piano is like, is famous. Like it's included in you know when they'll have like, I can't remember, but there, there are like those top 20 iconic scenes of the 20th century and stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so like there's a reason for that, because it's just delightful, and same with when they're jumping on the trampoline, which I hadn't remembered until you mentioned it, but it's a similar sort of like that just that's what it is to be human, like that's what we do, we play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, so, so that that piece of it still really holds up. We're just looking at like a different mode of adulting, a way of adulting that doesn't preclude childing.
Speaker 2:Well it doesn't. It doesn't stifle or deny the little girl inside like that. Yeah, it doesn't stifle or deny the, the, the child inside. That's like. I don't want to listen to the Dow Jones report, Right, Right.
Speaker 1:Right when it goes into the romance piece, I it it like it gives me the ick, you know, as a in in 2025. So so let me lay that out a little bit more. So I mean, initially it's like it's really unclear why Susan is interested in him. I mean he has good ideas, but from her perspective he reads as just kooky. I mean like today we would probably say like neurodivergent in some way. Um, because he just like doesn't get social cues and like just behaves just bizarrely.
Speaker 1:So like like the fact that she remains sort of romantically interested in him, like doesn't speak well to Susan in the beginning, in the beginning, and then like he's just really honest, though has a hard time talking about his feelings when she's like, what are we even doing here? He's like, uh, hanging out working on this report, what do you mean? And she's like, well, how do you feel about all this? And he's like what, oh what? And she's like me, how do you feel about me? And he kind of like smacks her with the comic book and like laughs, and then like tackles her and kisses her and like it's childish, which is part of the point. She finds it charming. But uh, it's uh. I mean, I guess it's what you get when you date a 13-year-old boy. To her credit, she didn't know, she didn't know, she didn't know.
Speaker 2:That's and that's one thing I want to say in this film like nobody does anything wrong. Nobody does anything wrong, totally, totally, like it's. It's so inappropriate, but nobody has done anything that they shouldn't agree.
Speaker 1:Yeah I, I'm I'm not mad at susan, yeah, but but then so at Susan. But then there's a scene they're at a dinner party and one of the I guess the host's kid is about Josh's age and needs help with his homework, and dad's like we've got guests, I can't help you right now. But Josh is like, oh, I can help with algebra and he like goes in the kid's room and is like helping him, like using sports metaphors to help him understand algebra. And Susan and I don't know if it's the kid's mom or another woman like come and they're kind of looking, like watching, and the other woman says to Susan you're right, he's wonderful, and I I'm speaking in draft draft here.
Speaker 1:I don't have this fully like thought out, but there's something that both simultaneously rings true and icks me out about that whole setup right, that multiple women are like this man, who is in fact a 13 year old boy, is the man I'm looking for. The thing that rings true, I think, is exactly what Penny Marshall was going for that there's a level of honesty and authenticity that we learn as adults to manage, hide, perform behind. We put things in front of how we actually feel as adults, because we're supposed to that a 13-year-old hasn't quite learned to do yet, and I think the point Marshall was making is that that is-.
Speaker 1:Worthy of rediscovering in oneself, yeah, and, and, and, to be desired and like maybe a better and more authentic way to be in relationship, and so that's the part that rings true, but it's still a 13 year old boy who they are ultimately like pining after and that gets to like there is a an expectation for women to mother the men in their lives. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you for saying that. Carry on so part of the ick is that she is drawn to his childlike nature, both in the in a positive way, like you're describing, because she's drawn to his authenticity that is childlike. But there is also the like oh, someone needs to take care of this man. Yes, yes, aspect of being drawn to his childlike nature. Yes, like oh, he doesn't get it, I can save him.
Speaker 1:Thank you for saying that, because I wasn't putting that together, but I think you were exactly right. I think you were exactly right and part of the way that I know you're right is because if Marshall had made this movie gender, there is nothing cool about the relationship between the 13 year old girl and an adult woman's body and an adult man. There is nothing charming or like I don't. I don't, I don't even like I. It just sticks me out that way.
Speaker 2:Well, and because, because, like, we don't actually have to put a 13 year old girl in an adult woman's body for that to be reality, maybe, yeah, like we, we already get like well, and and we get adult men telling young women like you're so mature for your age, you're so authentic, you're an old soul like we get that already.
Speaker 1:I have personally experienced it a big part of of the ick. For me is that, like what message that? I don't think Marshall was creating. That message I think we have been given it as women, like I think Marshall was reflecting something that's that's authentically in the culture, but I don't like it. You know, I don't like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even the uh her like tending him after after like him, after the fight with Paul. There is that caretaking of a man who can't take care of himself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's the moment that she realizes, when she's caring for him, after Paul has had that ridiculous scuffle, that's the moment that makes her break up with Paul. So yeah, for sure, for sure, okay, gross, and like I, and I have to say too, like you say, nobody did anything wrong, and I think that's true of the characters. I'm not sure it's true of the storytellers, because I think they could have told this story and got at the interesting questions that are genuinely interesting without having him have sex with a grown-ass adult.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on the trampoline and how magical it is, like that is something where I could see even having susan interested in josh, but never getting to that point because, frankly, like how is a 13 year old boy like when that happens him not going? Like whoa, I'm not ready for this, you know? Like there's because that also buys into the idea that, like boys are just you know, you just give them a reason, just give them an excuse, just give a stiff breeze, yeah, rather than it being like like he is not emotionally ready for this.
Speaker 1:well, especially since, like we saw in the first scene, before he was big, before he Tom Hanks that, like the girl with the side pony said hi Josh, and he could barely speak, yes, like Billy had to be. Like he says hi back, yes, and that's.
Speaker 2:I mean that's appropriate because he's 13. He's 13. So, like Susan didn't do anything wrong, mm-mm, Josh didn't do anything wrong, except I think the storytellers did josh dirty by making it seem like he was capable of accepting that kind of advance. Right, the, the it's. The movie makers were solving their own problem, which is there needs to be a romance, rather than solving the character's problem, which is like wow, this is really cool, but I can't. That would have been in character.
Speaker 1:Right, right. And in fact, at the very end, when she realizes she knows that it's real, that he is in fact a kid, but he's already made the wish. So they're at the sort of sea park where the Zoltar is, he says there's a million reasons why I should go back and only one why I should stay. And that's you, which is not what a 13 year old boy would say. No, it felt like, even as I don know it, just it just felt out of character. If it felt like what susan would want to hear, as opposed to what josh would actually say, yeah, and not for nothing.
Speaker 2:the fact that I was icked out by it, watching it when I was a child, when I was at my most credulous about stories Like if it's in the story then that means it's right because it's in the story tells me that this is, that this is the wrong note. So, like that, this, this is something that was put in to solve a problem other than the story's problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, cause in fact, some of the laugh story's problem, yeah, yeah, because in fact some of the laugh, some of the funniest moments, are when josh either accidentally says something like the I I get to be on top. Or like totally doesn't understand sexual innuendo, like she'll wrap her arms, put legs around you so tight you'll be screaming, screaming for us, or whatever the hell it is that john lewis says um, there are others like that, like the. Those are the funniest moments. And so that's that, that kid who reacted that it just yeah. Anyway, I think I've said what I need to say.
Speaker 1:I don't think we needed the sexual component of the relationship between susan and josh for this story and I think it, and I think it.
Speaker 1:I actually think it would have been a stronger story if it weren't there, and it would have made Susan really think about, I mean, it does, it does as it stands, it makes her really think about what it is that you know she needs and wants.
Speaker 1:But I think it would. It would have been even more compelling for her to really think about herself and her um relationships with men. I mean, like she's got a hard row to hoe professionally, like she's a high achiever. She's the only woman in the room in like the. There's this another sort of much like mr mom, like another sort of smoky war room where they're talking about new products, and she's maybe one of two but but the only one who gets any um lines in the movie for sure in the room. And in fact and she works really, really hard in fact at the party she goes up to mr mcmillan and starts to like try and engage him in like shop talk and he's like Susan, have a drink, just relax, it's a party. So the play that Josh brings into her life is important and significant for her mental health and we didn't need the sexual romantic component, yeah, for that to be the case.
Speaker 2:Well, I also can remember not the first time I saw it, but at some point when I saw my teens, I think, thinking about what this will do to her reputation well, she already had a rep.
Speaker 1:I mean, like paul says something about how josh is just one more link in the change and maybe maybe that's why, like he lists, like three or four other men, that she slept with and so like.
Speaker 2:That is completely unreasonable and unfair. But that is the world, especially in 1988. But I mean, hell, it's the world. Now People claim that Kamala Harris had to quote, unquote, sleep her way to the top. So that to me was also like an aspect of why this ached me out. And if we made like a follow-up movie about Susan or like got to see her talk to her therapist or something like that, like maybe we could get to this place where she had sublimated all her play into her sexuality, you know and so you know, like there's, there's some interesting stuff there.
Speaker 2:There's some very interesting stuff there that I think could make a fascinating examination of what it means to be a high achieving woman in the eighties examination of what it means to be a high achieving woman in the eighties.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, yes, and you know I'm thinking about the TV show rivals. That's newish right now. That's the one where David Tennant plays a TV exec in Britain.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's based on a book written around the eighties, wasn't it?
Speaker 1:And it's set in the eighties, yeah, and um, there's a high achieving woman who sleeps with lots of important men in that. So I I think there's, there's, there's some there there. That's not just the movie makers like doing susan dirty, like I think there is sort of a cultural something. Yeah, I think, based on the I mean, I was a child in the eighties, I don't actually know but based on other sort of pop culture that you know, I think is kind of reflecting at least a way, not that those women aren't also very talented, but like you use the tools in your toolbox, kind of a thing. So but yeah, yes, all all of those things We've been talking for a minute I do want to make sure that we have some time to talk about sort of the movie makers, like the critique that we're giving right now of the actual story elements based on the questions that Penny Marshall was asking.
Speaker 1:I want to talk about the fact that it was Penny Marshall asking, asking them right, the fact that so we, when I think about the bechdel test, so I asked the first question are there at least two named female characters?
Speaker 1:there are, because miss patterson, the secretary, uh, and susan, and and then the mom is baskin yeah, so at least those three, and there are others too, because side pony has a name I don't remember her name, but she had one. So there there are more than, uh, more than one named female characters, but I don't know that they ever speak to each other, that any of them ever speak to each other. So so it doesn't pass back to l and we've got this like badass female director in penny marshall, like who goes on to make league of their own with tom hanks again which needs to be on our list if it's not, yeah agreed and so like I don't know if there's more to say about it than like I, I didn't take the time to like see if there's any kind of documentary or like oral history evidence of like.
Speaker 1:If she had pressure to push sex and romance into this film, I don't know, so I'll start with that. I suspect that, and like later in her career she'd been successful. She was able to say no to that. On League of their Own right, there is no romance like you expect it between the Tom Hanks and the um.
Speaker 1:Gina Davis characters but it doesn't happen and I think that's because Penny Marshall was like no, that's not the story I'm telling, I don't want to tell that story. And this earlier stage in her career maybe she wasn't able to push back hard enough against the producers or the you know, the people who are reading the marketing report saying like, okay, it has to be a romance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's question for you who wrote it?
Speaker 1:Did Penny Marshall write it, or it was written by Gary Ross and Ann Spielberg.
Speaker 2:Okay, and Ann Spielberg Okay. So another aspect of this that I am curious about, and you probably don't know and this is all speculation but the thing that disturbs me about him being away from his parents for six weeks and them being so, so terrified and heartbroken. Right, we see it a little bit, not a huge amount, but he calls, doesn't he?
Speaker 1:Yeah, he calls and talks to his mom and like she wants proof that he's okay. And he says well, ask me something that only he would know. And she says ask him what I sang to him when he was little. And he says he has this like dear the headlights look. And he's like don't you want to ask him something else? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Don't they end up?
Speaker 1:singing together on the phone or something Not exactly. He says, oh, oh, I got it, I got it. And he starts singing memories. Okay, and she cries. So he's singing memories into the handset at work Like John Loves is like side-eyeing him and Mrs Baskin is crying.
Speaker 2:So the reason I bring that up is I wonder if this had been in the hands of a male director, if we would have had those scenes, if we would have just like skipped over, just not worried about what their parents Just not worried about, like what, what mom's gone through for those six weeks? No idea, no idea. This is, this is entirely speculation, but that is something that you know. Josh is having this adventure and you know it's. It's scary and angsty and terrifying in some ways, but in a lot of ways it's just it's wonderful, it's. You know he's learning about himself, he's learning about the world, he's, he's he's designing toys, meanwhile, like his parents are going through the worst possible thing that a parent can go through yeah, and possible thing that a parent can go through.
Speaker 2:And you know that acknowledgement of it, even though it's played for laughs, is, I feel like, important, because children aren't just children. You know children are parts of a part of a family unit. They're, you know they're. They have parents, they have guardians, they have adults who care about them. You know, and like they have parents, they have guardians, they have adults who care about them. You know, and like we never see, like there's no, his is his face on like a milk carton, or yes, we do see that, okay, okay, um, do we know what like is going on with his school if they're worried about it? No, and like, at the end you say that that, uh, he and billy are back together doing their their thing, but, like, would his parents be like super paranoid and overprotective from that point on? Would they let him go out and ride bikes by himself? I mean, like, is this going to really affect the rest of his life and his little sister's life? Yeah, you know they're going to be so overprotective anyway.
Speaker 2:Like it's a silly movie, yeah, but there's a, there's a reality underneath of it that I, I imagine like dad watching it with us, who was so overprotective yeah like that had to have killed him, even as he was like enjoying the silliness and like having fun watching Tom Hanks do an amazing physical comedy, you know, which I know he had a huge amount of respect for.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's just something like, as you like, there's this thing about the media. Doesn't change you do? You do? Yeah, totally. But even as a kid remember being feeling bad for his mom yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I think we're meant to, because there's a scene where billy and the mom end up talking like across the windows the way he used to talk with josh, because mom is in josh's room, just sort of sad and um and and, and billy really feels for her too, I mean he knows the truth, but yeah. So he tries to comfort her, like and she's like he had a birthday and and Billy's like I know he's going to be back real soon.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So we're that there's that that is intentional on the part of the movie makers. We are actually meant to have a great deal of sympathy and empathy for Mrs Baskin. Meant to have a great deal of sympathy and empathy for Mrs.
Speaker 2:Baskin, and I could imagine a movie with a male director just skipping over that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Just do the fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, agreed, but he had a birthday. So I have a tradition I take a picture of my kid both of my kids at exactly the moment they were born every year. It started by accident, my with my eldest. I happened to be up, he was born at 6, 12 AM.
Speaker 2:I happened to be up early on his first birthday, so I took a picture and then then it was a tradition and like it makes my heart clutch to think about the first year that we won't be together when he's in college and I'll, I'll have to be like you have to get up early and take a selfie when he's in college and I'll, I'll have to be like you have to get up early and take a selfie, right? So you know that. That is it's. It hurts. It hurts to think about and like good for the movie that it lets you see. That hurt, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so well, those were the things that I wanted to talk about. I'll just say, before I do the synopsis, I'll just you said it, but I'll reiterate like Tom Hanks doing 13 year old boy is so delightful, it's fun and funny and you just, like you, I believed it. Like he acted his face off and I just I believed it. Like the physical comedy of like, in the very beginning, him trying to put on the 15 year old's pants and like falling over, but also in his face as he like starts to, as he reacts to things, you know, $187. And you know, I just the the, the beluga caviar. It's hilarious, like I laughed out loud so many times, so many times, really, really funny and, interestingly, the pacing feels very slow for 2025. Both are true, which is really interesting. So let me see if I can, kind of before you, okay, before I do before I do before you.
Speaker 2:Uh, this is one of the movies that has caused me to reflect that there is far less body swapping in adulthood than I was led to believe Agreed, agreed, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:From our childhood I thought it was going to be like you know, at least, at least once a year, yeah, and and the reason why I bring it up now is because a lot of it is like the acting, yeah, of like people like tom hanks and like just master actors who like sold it yeah, made me think this has got to happen. I mean, obviously tom hanks knows how to do this because it's happened to him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, totally, I'm with you. I'm with you. Yeah, all right, so just wanted to put that out there, thank you, yeah, so I think the core of what's interesting and delightful about this movie is the questions that Penny Marshall and whoever the writers are that I named- Gary Ross and Ann Spielberg.
Speaker 1:Penny Marshall, gary Ross, ann Spielberg thank you for remembering their names were asking about maturity and adulthood and the fact that adulthood and play don't have to be mutually exclusive, and I think those questions and those hypotheses that they were putting forward remain relevant and fascinating and fun, and and I think we still have something to learn from the idea that, from the idea that tapping into our inner 13-year-old now and then, and putting aside the jockeying for status and position, is not just worth doing but actually healthy and to be desired, and I think that remains really powerful and delightful in this film.
Speaker 2:I recently had a friend mentioning that she's in a rut and it's not like depression, exactly, it's just a rut, and the advice I gave her was, when I feel like that is, I think back to what did young Emily, child Emily, love to do? That I don't do anymore and go do that and go do that, and that that, like it, just reconnects me with a part of myself that gets neglected.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Put another way. I have sometimes said joy is for grownups.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, so that's it for kids tricks are for kids, but joy is for grownups. Yeah, so, so that's it for kids tricks are for kids, but joy is for grownups. So that is, that's a. That's a thing that I think is feels really important, and and part and parcel with that is is an indictment of the toxic masculinity that creates sort of rivalries and like intentional humiliation and intentional sort of like diminishing people, especially in front of other powerful people, like there's a complete indictment of that in John Hurd's Paul and the way that he responds to Josh.
Speaker 2:Tom Hanks' Josh. Well, and then you mentioned earlier that, to the movie's credit and to their credit, the older kids, when Josh is too small to get on the ride, are not cruel and do not humiliate him. So it's an indictment, which is not necessarily true. I mean, kids can be cruel, but it's making it clear that that is immaturity that is embraced by adults.
Speaker 1:Right, yes, right. So thank you for putting those two in conversation. I think you're right. I think that's important to note the difference between the kids at the ride and Paul, yeah.
Speaker 1:So all of that feels really remains, it holds up in the backward look. The piece of the adult, childlike thing that doesn't is the romance and sexual relationship between Josh and Susan. Susan's a grown-ass adult and Josh is a 13-year-old boy, despite the fact that he's wearing Tom Hanks' body, and so the romance between them is the sex between them in particular. But the romance also is icky, both because, like Josh, was not in a place where he was emotionally mature enough to be having a sexual relationship and because when Susan and the other woman are sort of like he's wonderful, like this is a desirable person, like it feeds and is fed by the notion that a parental-type relationship, a mother-type relationship with a romantic partner is something to be desired. You pointed that out and I'm grateful to you for naming it explicitly because I wasn't quite wrapping my arms around what was icky about the romance. But that's it, and we noted that if the genders were swapped, it's clear that that's icky, in part because adult men do that to girls all the time to try and justify sexual attraction, which is obviously icky. So that piece of it feels uncomfortable and inappropriate by today's eyes in ways that, as we pointed out, the characters don't do anything wrong, but the storytellers did, maybe and I want to give Penny Marshall the benefit of the doubt and even Gary Ross and Ann Spielberg that they were getting pressure from sort of execs who were reading marketing reports and said that romance and sex were necessary in order to sell a movie and not actually that they thought that that was serving the story, because it actually feels out of character that Josh would go through with it, that Josh would go through with it. And then later, the way that Josh talks about Susan, when he says there are a million reasons for me to go back, that is, to being a kid, and only one to stay and that's you that just doesn't read true to me anymore.
Speaker 1:And then, like part of what I just said, we talked about, kind of at the end, where we were wondering, like in the hands of a male director, how this would have been different and or if Penny Marshall had felt truly free to make the movie without constraints of, like what the studio wanted, what might have been different, like as this very powerful for the 80s I mean, she was one of very, very few, uh, successful female directors in 88 and we noted that she went on to make league of their own, where that eschews a romance. Even though there's an obvious pairing, it does not do that in league of their own, which we are putting on the list, um, and this movie does and and and and. In league of their own at least, they would have been age appropriate, right so? So that's like a question that we'll never probably never know the answer to, but it's kind of interesting to speculate about. I feel like I'm missing something. What am I missing?
Speaker 2:well, we talked a little bit about the place of the parenting in this and in Mrs Baskin's heartbreak and how we did get a window to that in this film, and not sure if we would have in a different director's hands, right, right.
Speaker 1:Okay, any final thoughts?
Speaker 2:Just want to like reiterate the, the magic that we talk about in, specifically the piano and the trampoline scenes in, and part of what's magical, is like accepting joy, the power of play, yeah, which is something that you know it is so easy to forget, and part of what why Tom Hanks is a beloved actor is in this film.
Speaker 2:I mean, he's, he's all in playing a 13 year old in a in an adult body, but, um, it is kind of like the, a 13 year old in an adult body, but it is kind of like the, the, the power of play, and the, the accepting joy, is something that you kind of need to do wholeheartedly, which I think is also what you need to do to act, to act as well and as masterfully as Tom Hanks does.
Speaker 2:And so it's that wholeheartedness, that that complete like acceptance of the moment that you're in, is why Tom Hanks is so beloved as an actor, why he's so good as an actor and why he's so enduring. You know he started off in Bosom Buddies with Peter Scolari and you know it was a sitcom, and and you know he has gone on to make things that are like oscar winning and like amazing, because there is within him that spark of josh baskin which is like I'm in it entirely, yeah, and you know, that's what actors do you know? Some of it has to do with, like, particular skill and ability and stuff like that, but I think a lot of it can be about that, that willingness to let go. Yeah, and that's what next week.
Speaker 1:You are bringing me some deep thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yes, I am bringing you my deep thoughts on Chasing Amy, the Kevin Smith film. Have you ever seen it.
Speaker 1:I have read about it. I have not seen it. I've seen other Kevin Smith films. I have not seen that one.
Speaker 2:This film and then the film In and Out are the two films that I now look back. Go in and out are the two films that I now look back. Go, oh, I should have known I was neurodivergent.
Speaker 1:I can't remember my reactions to those Interesting. All right, well, I'll look forward to hearing that then. So, I'll tell you all about it next week. Sounds great. See you then. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom slash, sign up and share your address with us. We'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you?