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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about Mr. Mom
The next thing you know, you're strung out on bedspreads.
One of the rare childhood films that the Guy Girls remember watching with both their mom and their dad, the 1983 John Hughes film Mr. Mom was in some ways an incredible progressive look at gendered work. There were only 6 (as in, one less than seven) self-reported stay-at-home dads in the U.S. in 1983, so Michael Keaton’s Jack Butler journey from incompetent, unemployed, and resentful primary parent to master homemaker and better dad truly was revolutionary. But as Tracie points out this week, the movie still carries outdated assumptions about the cost of being a woman in public (sexual harassment that is never punished), the inherent rivalries between women (because they always be fighting over a man), and the invisibility of women’s labor (unless and until a man has to do it).
Curl up with your woobie and take a listen!
Mentioned in this episode:
The Politics of Housework by Pat Mainardi
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
Anything that allows us to self-soothe, that is not immoral, illegal or self-destructive, like why wouldn't we hold on to it? What others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. We're sisters, tracy and Emily, collectively known as the Guy Girls. Every week, we take turns re-watching, researching and reconsidering beloved media and sharing what we learn. Come overthink with us and if you get value from the show, please consider supporting us. You can become a patron on Patreon or send us a one-time tip through Ko-fi. Both links are in the show notes and thanks. I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? Today, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1983 John Hughes film, mr Mom, with my sister, emily Guy-Burken and with you. Let's dive in. All right, em. Mr Mom, what do you remember?
Speaker 2:Well, I didn't realize it was a John Hughes film.
Speaker 1:I know I saw you react.
Speaker 2:It kind of makes sense now that you say that. So what I remember it was Michael Keaton, terry Garr, right, yep. So I remember the clothes washer that was like off balance and was walking Yep, that scared me to death as a child. I remember there's a point where Terry Garr is at a like business dinner and starts cutting the meat for the person she's at the dinner with Is a whoopee. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, I remember the name of the security blanket, yeah.
Speaker 2:The whoopee, yes, yeah, okay, I remember the name of the security blanket, yeah, the whoopee, and I remember that, like I don't know that our parents like encouraged us to watch it, but I, like I remember our parents, I think, liked it. Yeah, because I, like, I have strong memories of both our mom and our dad and this movie, which is rare, for I mean, like we, there's a lot of movies we associate with dad. There's quite a few we associate with our stepdad. There's a lot fewer that we associate with mom. Yep, so, but this one I associate with her and with dad. So it's, that's about what I can call up. Uh, off the top of my head, yeah, so tell me, why are we talking about Mr Mom today?
Speaker 1:This is one of the ones that like. So when we're planning, you know, we have this whole like listeners, we have this whole like spreadsheet of like movies that we were like oh, we should talk about, and and when we sit down to plan, we try and like mix it up so that we're not doing like all Muppets all the time.
Speaker 2:We would do that.
Speaker 1:Yes, entirely be deep thoughts about the Muppets, if possible, and you know we, we We've done a couple of you know sort of serious ones. We just did Alien, and you know. So I was looking for a comedy and I don't know why this one like recaptured my imagination when I saw the name on our spreadsheet, but I remember it sort of um, scaring and charming me. Like scaring because like, well, the clothes washer and the vacuum cleaner, but also the, um, the, the whoopee, and uh, jack Michael Keaton's character has like a favorite shirt that he burns and he tries to get the son Kenny to burn his who, his whoopee. That was very scary to me. That someone would say that you can't have your security blanket past five years old, that was very upsetting to me. I actually can remember a conversation with dad where he was like that's silly, like it doesn't hurt anybody, you can keep it as long as you want, and like being very reassured by that. Listeners, I had a security pillow, my special pillow.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to go ahead and admit I still have both my, I had two. I had a blankie and quilty, because naming yeah, me too. Me too, I mean, the pillow was called special pillow and I still have both, although I cut up pieces of blankie a little bit to make my son's baby quilt. That has not been finished yet and the baby is 14. And I still, I still sleep with them because you can have it into your forties because it hurts no one Right.
Speaker 1:Well, and even actually it's funny cause there's a scene where, um, the dad, michael Keaton, is trying to convince the kid to give up the whoopee and he says it starts with these blankets, and then, you know, it just gets more and more and it's like a it's a joke about, like drug addiction, but then he's talking about, and then you're, it just gets more and more and it's like a it's a joke about, like drug addiction, but then he's talking about, and then you're a kid and it's just like full-on, you're an adult and it's full-on bedspreads. I'm like exactly, exactly, jack, it's full-on bedspreads. It's not like it's not drugs. Emily's sitting there with a comforter on her lap.
Speaker 2:It's down filled, which I call my Wisconsin toga. We're recording this on January 7th and it is cold outside. It is cold and I do consider blankets to be day wear and constantly walk around the house with them around my shoulders.
Speaker 1:See, it started with blanking and quilting. Maybe Jack was onto something. Anyway, All right, so that's why we're talking about it.
Speaker 1:Fond childhood memories and and and like looking to remember what I do remember of it, with the sort of so-called gender swap, uh, in terms of their roles, Like I was really curious about how that might hold up from 1983 to 2025 here.
Speaker 1:So that's why we're talking about it, and mostly we're going to talk about gender really, and actually we're going to talk about masculinity, which this movie actually holds up better than I expected in some ways. So so I really want to talk about masculinity and and gender in general and sort of gender roles in terms of like what we do, like like the actual tasks in the household and the ways in which like tasks have been gendered, Like this movie really gets into that, and there's a little, a little bit. I want to talk about work and like it's curious that Jack is a um, Michael Keaton's character. Jack is a, an auto worker in Detroit, and yet we don't hear about unions at all, Like it's not actually about labor, which is kind of interesting unions at all, Like it's not actually about labor, which is kind of interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is really fascinating. I had no memory of what his job was.
Speaker 1:That he got laid off from. Yeah. So I think we're going to talk a lot about work and about gender and how those things overlap and also sort of what the messages were about those things through this film. But before we get there, let me see if I can give a synopsis of the plot. So Act 1, we open with this scene. We see it's their home.
Speaker 1:So, as you say, michael Keaton, jack Butler and his wife Carolyn Butler, played by Terry Garr. They have three kids, all under seven it seems. So two boys, alex and Kenny, and I think they're meant to be about six and four, maybe in that, or seven and five somewhere in that range. And then, like a one year old daughter, megan, and we see it's a morning, so we see them getting ready for the day. So Carolyn wakes up. The boys, jack is getting ready for work. We see them at the breakfast table. Jack is like rushing, he gets like one bite of his toast and then there's a honk and it's the guys for the carpool picking him up. So he like gives everybody kisses and he leaves. And so we're, we're establishing from the beginning his sort of like traditional male breadwinner outside the homework, like not fully present or not present much in the home and her, like all the things that that are falling. Tolyn in the car ride to work because we follow the viewer follows jack. So and the the star power in this movie is pretty incredible. Like I think, michael keaton was a rising star, terry gar was known because she'd already been in um close encounters. The guys in the car with jack are his co, so Jeffrey Tambor is the boss, he's the driver, and then the two guys and then Jack's in the passenger seat and the two guys in the backseat are Christopher Lloyd and Tom Leopold. So some star power. I think even in 1983, these guys, if they weren't already household names, they were about to become household names, right. So they're on their way. They're all in suits, so they're like management. But this is Detroit, they're engineers, so we follow them and they're nervous. They're afraid about layoffs. Jeffrey Tambor, who is the boss, his name, the character's name is Jinx. He assures them that it's going to be okay because he likes splitting the gas money four ways. So he is assuring these three guys that they're safe.
Speaker 1:The next scene cut to the scene. Jack is actually on top of his suit. He's wearing protective gear and is on the line and talking to some of the guys who actually work the line, he's just kind of. He's just kind of shooting the shit, right, and he says are you worried about the lions? So that's part of the way. We're reminded that we're in Detroit and there's they say, no man, we're worried about the lines, the unemployment line, the food line, like you know. So like we're seeing that these. And then there's this he tries to give them a pep talk, talking about rocky, which he hasn't actually seen. So they're like which rocky? Who is he fighting? Was his manager alive or dead? And he's like he has no idea because he hasn't actually seen the movie that feels like such a middle management thing to do he's so funny.
Speaker 1:So then, and like so he's saved by the bell when, like, the intercom comes and says Jack Butler, to the management office, please. And as he's walking away, camera stays with these three guys who are line workers and they're like he's never seen Rocky and like he's in trouble. They know he's in trouble. So he gets up to the office and it turns out the two guys who were in the back seat have just been laid off and Jack is like come on, guys, it'll be okay, you'll get another job. And they're like no, you're fired too. And then, after he'd just been counseling them, he attacks Jinx, goes after him and it's ridiculous, tambor's. Jinx says it's not like, I'm sending you away with nothing. You're technically furloughed, you guys are great engineers, you'll land on your feet, you're getting severance, you're getting this, you're getting whatever. And then he pulls cash out and he's like and here's your gas money back for this month.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of like slapstick hijinks that happen, where they're like attacking each other and pulling each other off or pushing each other. Anyway, okay, we cut back to home. Jack is getting out of a cab. I'm going to be, you know, saying to the guys. I'm going to be okay. They clearly have gone to a bar. And um, carolyn and the three kids are like all dressed up like meeting him at the door, like cause and the, and she's like, don't, don't mention it, don it, don't mention it. He, he didn't get fired, he got laid off, but don't mention it. And, um, like almost the moment he walks in the door, the middle kid, kenny, the one who has the whoopee, says sorry, you got fired, dad, like almost the moment the jack walks in the door. So are they dressed up just to welcome him home or are they going somewhere no, just to welcome him home.
Speaker 2:or are they going somewhere, no, just to welcome him home?
Speaker 1:Just to let him know that they're proud of him and they're going to be okay. And I don't know, as they're cleaning up from dinner, he says I'm going to get another job. It's going to be fine, I'm going to start applying. I've already put feelers out. And she says you know, I think maybe I'm going to do the same. And he's like what are you talking about? And she said well, you know, I worked a couple of years in advertising and I have a college degree I might as well put it to work. And he reacts with with male fragility to that, like he gets agitated and he says you think you can get a job before me? And she's like I didn't say that. And it's not a competition, know. And he says let's put a bet up. And she's like no, I don't bet. He says a hundred dollars to your one. So he insists. She actually never accepts the bet, but he insists. He shows her 100 bucks and he lends her a dollar and gives and like pull, like invites the kids in, like the kids hold the money and the bet is who will get a job first, money, and the bet is who will get a job first. And then cut to the very next scene Yikes, yeah, it's pretty bad. I'm watching this going like, ooh, he's kind of a dick. I don't remember him being a dick.
Speaker 1:Cut to the very next scene. She's in a very, very fashionable 1980s power suit for her first day on the job. He's like take the money, carolyn. She's like I don't want to take the money. I don't take bets, I didn't bet this was on you. I don't want the money. And then should we go over the list again? I don't want to go over the list again. Okay, let's go over the list again. Like all the things he has to do, since he's now a stay-at-home parent. He says something else that's like kind of obnoxious and she's like you know what? I will take that money.
Speaker 2:I'm like way to go, carolyn.
Speaker 1:So we follow him. I don't remember what order, it doesn't matter. He has to drop off. The oldest kid goes to school only for half a day, so he's got all three kids in the car and he's doing it wrong. And this I remember very clearly. I don't know if you do, you're doing it wrong. This is not how mom does it. You're doing it wrong. So, drop off. We enter from the south at drop off and from the north at pickup or whatever it is, and I actually don't. It might be the reverse. But one of the grownups is like hi, jack, I'm Annette. You're doing it wrong. So the next several minutes of the film are further proof that he's doing it wrong.
Speaker 1:Okay, so there's the washing machine which you remember, where he shoves so, so many clothes into the washing machines. It's a front loader and one of the kids is like I think that's too much, I think that's too full. And he's like no, we can get plenty in there. And he like uses his foot to like push more clothes in. And then we see him like then do the detergent. And he's like filling this cup. I mean he's got like two cups of powder detergent. And then like he's like oh, I can save some time and he throws fabric softener in the cup and then borax and he's like stirring it all up. And and then three different repair people show up not exactly the same moment, but they're all there at the same time. So the TV repair person, there's the exterminator and a guy who says he needs to check the pilot on the water heater. So they're all there. The baby has knocked over a house plant and he needs to find the vacuum cleaner, which is called Jaws and like hijinks ensue. Right, the washing machine is walking and the kids have asked if they can make lunch and they're making chili. The smoke detector gets set off from the chili that the kids are trying to make and it's nuts. So proof that he's inept at this whole housework thing, at this whole housework thing.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile, carolyn at work is being taken to a meeting by another woman who works at the company and she's clearly judging Carolyn. And Carolyn refers to their boss by his first name. She calls him Ron and the other woman says who's Ron? And Carolyn's like Ron, richardson, and the other woman's like we all call him Mr Richardson. And Carolyn's like well, he invited me to call him Ron at my interview at lunch and the other woman gives her this look. So we see immediately first day on the job. At least this other woman believes that Carolyn's been hired because of her looks. The other woman says let me give you a piece of advice Keep your head down and your mouth shut and maybe you'll learn something.
Speaker 1:So they go into this room and it's like the cigarette smoke is just like hazy and they're like talking about stuff and like they have all these boards up all over. And we learned that the client they're talking about is schooner tuna and it was the very first client that Mr Richardson's dad, who founded the agency, ever got. So it's a very important client to them and it's there they need to figure out how to sell more tuna. It's just not working. And carolyn starts like cleaning up. There's like all this trash on the table and uh. Mr richardson's like, uh, you don't need to do that. We have people. And she's like sorry, it's habit. And then he asks for her opinion and she's like I mean, none of is very good. And they're kind of like laughing at her. But she's like when's the last time any of you were actually in a grocery store? Like none of this would make me want to buy this tuna. So she's been given this advice to keep her head down. But Mr Richardson asks her directly what she thinks. So we're seeing that, like Jack is inept, carolyn is proving herself even though people are skeptical about her.
Speaker 1:There's a montage where we see lots of time go by. Carolyn is doing well at work and starts working longer hours and coming home late. Jack initially can't believe anybody would actually watch soap operas and then becomes really enamored with them. He's like wearing the same flannel shirt all the time. One of his kids comes up and is like Dad, this grilled cheese is like barely toasty and the cheese is barely melty. And he's like fine, give it here. And he like puts the iron on it.
Speaker 1:I remember that, remember that. To give it here. And he like puts the iron on it. I remember that, remember that. To like warm it up. And then he like goes to get it and it's like stuck to the bottom of the iron. He pulls it off and hands it back to the kid. Because he's like staring at the little tube TV watching the Young and the Restless and he's fallen in with, like a group of moms, including Joan who is played by anne jillian and she is the sort of I was gonna say femme fatale, but I don't know that that's really the right trope, but she's she's the blanche yeah, and she sees him at the grocery store and helps him out and, like her boobs are on display all the time, like on purpose for him.
Speaker 1:In fact, at one point he's driving away and Annette, who we met when she said you're doing it wrong, is standing next to Joan and says he's married. And Joan says so, were we once? Oh goodness, were we once? Okay, so so that's happening. Mr Richardson is the person whose steak she cuts. They're actually on a plane it's like a fancy chartered plane and they're eating and he's sort of saying, like you know, we're going to be have to be working long hours, so if this is going to be a problem, you need to let me know now. And they're getting looks from the same woman, eve, who initially said you know, keep your head down. And another like person in the company they're they're totally giving side eye. And she's like no, my husband supports me, it's, it's fine.
Speaker 1:At one point, jack and Carolyn have an argument, because he's like just letting himself go, like he's got this big beard, and he says what do you think about the beard? Does it remind you of a movie star? Something like that. And she says, yeah, orson, welles, oh goodness. And then. So they argue about that, he's I'm gonna go sleep on the couch, on the fat couch, and then jack plays poker with the girls and they're playing for coupons, like that's the currency that they're betting with. Carolyn comes home and she looks in the window as jones like leaning into jack, like like really pushing her breasts into jack, into jack's view, and carolyn sees it and gets a little agitated.
Speaker 1:Jack has this sort of Young and the Restless inspired fantasy dream sequence where Joan comes over dressed in a trench coat, over like a nightie, and all the things that Carolyn has been sort of complaining about, like the flannel, the things that carolyn has been sort of complaining about, like the flannel, the beard, the extra weight. Joan's like no, I the, I love the beard. I like a man with a little extra meat on his bones. Flannel gets me hot. So they kiss.
Speaker 1:Carolyn comes in, she shoots him and this is in the dream, it's all in the dream. It's all. It's very like campy over the top, because it's like young and the restless inspired, so like he says you can't shoot me. The kids are, it's all. It's very like campy over the top, because it's like young and the restless inspired, so like he says you can't shoot me. The kids are just outside, even though it's like raining cats and dogs, and she says, oh, I thought of the kids. And she like puts a silencer on the gun.
Speaker 1:And when she does shoot him, like he ends up like falling and there's already like a chalk outline on the carpet and he's not quite in it. So he like gets up and looks and like scooches over a bit and then like joan is looking over him and like, and then mr richardson comes in and he's like, geez, what did you use at 38? She says, oh, 38, 39, whatever it took, which is a tag back from earlier, when I think it's because they're traveling. Mr richardson picks her up in a limo and jack is uh intimidated and like tries to intimidate mr richardson by like putting on overalls and like greeting him, like holding a chainsaw that's on and says the renovations he's doing to the house, that he's going to rewire it, and richardson says, oh, you're going to make it all 220. He says yeah, 220, 221, whatever it takes. So there's 38, 39, whatever it takes was the tag back from earlier, so it's it's campy over the top.
Speaker 1:And then we see the credits roll on the young, the restless and jack like kind of like, comes to like sitting on the couch watching it and is like, looks at his head is his himself and like, looks at the shirt. There's no, because his first reaction when he gets shot is like, looks at his head is his himself and like, looks at the shirt. There's no, because his first reaction when he gets shot is like, damn, I love this shirt. Um, the shirt doesn't have a hole in it and he's like oh, you know, it's just a dream, whatever. That's kind of like a wake up call for him to like get his shit together. We see him shave the beard. We see him exercising. We see him kind of like get stuff together. Like he creates like a remote control for jaws, the vacuum cleaner he gets. He's getting the kids up with like a bugle, like he's got, he's got it down. And then he's even the one that like traffic guard at the school, like south for pickup, you know, north for drop off, whatever, like he's, he's got it.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile, mr humphries, who is the schooner tuna head ceo, whatever, like doesn't? He doesn't like any of their ideas, like it's really bad. But then carolyn pitches him to instead of giving away stupid shit, which is what they've been doing just lower the price and actually sort of say like we know, these are hard economic times and so we're going to lower the price of the cans by 50 cents a can and our prices will go back to normal when we're through this, these hard times, but in the meantime we'll get through this together. That's her pitch. Mr Humphries loves it and it's one of those moments that is amazing and in some ways very feminist, and then gets undercut, which is period typical. Actually I'm not mad at John Hughes for this, but Mr Richardson thinks that Mr Schooner doesn't like it. He's starting to apologize. I'm like I'm sorry, mr Schooner, and Schooner's like you're damn right, you're sorry. Where have you been hiding this little girl? Yeah, oh, my God, yeah. So she has to go to LA to be there to film the commercial on the pitch that she gave.
Speaker 1:And it's Halloween and the kids are all dressed up and Jack is really upset that she's leaving, that she's missing. He says you gave me a piece of advice once and I want to give it back to you. It's really easy to forget the important things, so don't really easy to forget the important things, so don't. There's also a scene between, like after he's kind of gotten his stuff together, where he and the kids like make dinner and he sets the table like with candles and stuff, like waiting for her to come home, and we see him like waiting and like really bored, like balancing the wine cork on his head and then he ends up eating. She gets home really late. There's a note on the table that says there's food in the fridge and the chef is waiting for you in bed, or something like that. So we see that the sort of typical like overwork and feeling neglected gender roles have been swapped in multiple ways After the Halloween thing.
Speaker 1:Now she's in LA. The commercial is like tedious and boring and blah, blah, blah. Jack goes out with the girls. They kind of ambush him and take him to a male review with male strippers. This is the scene that, like, I was pleasantly surprised by. So he's the only dude in this sea of women, three dancers wearing like space suits. And he says so, I'm guessing these are not the guys from the space shuttle. And then they start like stripping. The girls are like I think he's coming for you, jack, and he like gives one of them a dollar. He's like where's he putting it? No, don't tell me, don't tell me. And like he's like averting his eyes. But it really does not devolve into homophobia, like at all. I was really pleasantly surprised.
Speaker 1:So we see them like dropping him off at home and he says here, I think you guys might want this more than I do. And they're like what is it? He says it's that dancer's phone number. He goes in and Annette is there with the kids, are all asleep on her, and he says I see why you offered to sit, you knew what they were doing. And the kids are up and they say I want to call mommy. I want to call mommy. So he's like no, it's, it's late, she'll be, we'll call her tomorrow. And Annette says well, you know, it's only eight, 30 in California. So they, they call, now cut the scene, cuts to where Carolyn is.
Speaker 1:Mr Richardson, at the boring photo shoot, has said hey, do you want to get dinner after we're done here? And she says no, you know what, I'm so tired, I just want to go back to the hotel and soak in a hot tub. That's all I want. And he says yeah, that sounds good. So now it's nighttime.
Speaker 1:We see her soaking in a hot tub and then we see Richardson come into her hotel room with like a tray of food and like on a, a cart, like with wheels and like a hotel guy, and he's like I really appreciate this. He's wearing like pajamas and a robe and she, and then he starts messing with the stereo, which like there were stereos and hotel rooms, and she's in the tub and she's like you know like what? Like cause she hears the music changing and he's looking for something. And then it goes to some like ridiculous, like love song or you know, sexy song, and she comes out and she's like what are you doing here, you know.
Speaker 1:And he's he just, you know makes a pass at her and she's like you need to leave now. And she says you've been drinking. And he says yes, I have, and. And then he's like you should divorce Jack and marry me and then you can become a partner. And she was like get out now and he doesn't, so she punches him, and he doesn't, so she punches him. So while she was in the tub I skipped a part, because while she was in the tub the phone call went through with Alex. We see Martin Mull as Ron answer the phone and say Alex, who?
Speaker 2:And then Alex, is the oldest kid.
Speaker 1:Yes, so Alex hands the receiver to his dad and he says Jack says, is Carolyn Butler there? And Maul says who is this? Or he says she's in the tub, who is this? And Jack says this is her husband. Who the hell is this? And then Richardson hangs up.
Speaker 1:So after we see her punch him, we cut back to the Butler home. Annette is still there. The phone is ringing. She says Jack, it's the fourth time it's rung in the last hour. Maybe you should answer it. And he freaks out oh, you want me to answer it, you want me to answer it. And he like rips the cord out of the wall and like throws it. And that's like okay, so I can see you want to be alone, so I'll just go. And then the TV is on in the background and it's some I don't know something that sets him off and he like kicks it, like smashes the tube and like kicks the TV.
Speaker 1:So the next morning Joan shows up, the kids are all painted. He and she says I see you had a lot of nervous energy Like he's been like like doing stuff in the house, like painted the dining room. The kids are painting whatever. The the TV repair person is there because of the shoe and the TV and Joan is like clearly like stepping up her flirtation and he knows it. So he actually like leaves her downstairs to like go take a shower. He's in the shower and hears her come into the bedroom and she is like she lays down on the bed. She's like, oh, it's, and she. So she calls to him through the bathroom door I love what you've done in here, or something like that. She's got like a drink on a tray and he starts talking to himself like A, she wants you. B, like going through letters and like the joke is then that like we see him like wipe the steam off the mirror and be like M and then later like why, why did I get rid of that? We'll be, and anyway. So Joan is on the bed, he's in the in the bathroom shower still running.
Speaker 1:Carolyn shows up, she like a a cab lets her out and she's like coming in. She sees the kids kind of all painted and where's dad? He's upstairs. And she goes upstairs and finds Joan in her bed and she says Joan, carolyn, what are you doing here? I live here. What are you doing here in my bedroom? You know.
Speaker 1:Anyway, we cut back to Jack who goes Z, you aren't going to do anything, pal, because you're in love with your wife. So he comes out of the bathroom and goes Joan, carolyn, says Jack. He says Carolyn. She says, well, now that we've got the names right, tell me why did I find Joan in our bedroom? And then so they kind of argue. He says why did Richardson answer your hotel room phone? And I could hear champagne bubbling in the background. She says you could hear that. He says see, doorbell rings. It's Jinx, jeffrey Tambor, the boss. He's come to beg for Jack to come back.
Speaker 1:We had a scene where it was made clear that Jinx was like lying to management and sort of suggesting that Jack had been doing something wrong. It's very unclear exactly what the lie was, but Jinx is not to be trusted. So Jinx is there, like begging him to come back. He said whatever you need, I need you to come back. I've been lying and I, and they caught me and I need you to come back and you can have anything. You want Full salary, company car, do you want a company car? The exterminator's there again, the TV guy's there again.
Speaker 1:And then, um, mr Richardson shows up and he's got like tape over his nose because she's broken his nose. And she says then we learned she quit last night. And the TV repair gal's like did he make a pass at you? And Richardson says I got a little out of hand. And she says I don't need that job, I can get another job, I can get a better job. And he's like we need you, the client loves you, we need you back.
Speaker 1:So, with the help of the service people, jack says to the exterminator he's offering me my full salary on a company car. Should I take it? And the guy's like yeah, you should take it, should I take it? And the guy's like yeah, you should take it. And the TV repair gal is like well, carolyn's like it was too many hours. I miss my family. So the repair gal's like what about three days at home and two days in the office, or vice versa? And so Jack says I don't make a move without Larry and Stan, which are the two other guys who got fired at the same time. Jink says fine, and we sort of the movie ends with like the two repair people negotiating with the two bosses, jack and Caitlin, sort of like arms around each other. So that's how it ends. I was all out of order. Anyway, doesn't matter matter you get the picture.
Speaker 1:So I think this film like I guess, squeaky passes bechdel, because in the conversation with eve, who is the other woman who works there, when eve is sort of judging her for calling him Ron, they are talking about Ron, but then she does say keep your head down, or whatever.
Speaker 2:So what about when Carolyn and Joan are talking about, like what are you doing here? I live here. What are you doing in my bedroom?
Speaker 1:Like that's not specifically about Jack, that's yeah, I'd buy that, I buy that yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, just to remind our listeners, we're talking about the Bechdel test, which asks three questions Is there more than one woman in the movie? Do do the women have names? Do they speak to each other about something other than a man or a boy? Right and simple yes. No for each one.
Speaker 1:Thanks, yeah, I guess, I guess I could. I'll follow you there. It's it's like gray but. But if it's a simple yes, no, then yeah, so that's cool.
Speaker 1:I mean, and and to a certain extent this falls into the like really toxic trope, uh, around sort of essentialist, gender essentialism around household tasks, sort of the idea that men are inept and the men who are not inept at household tasks are somehow effeminate or feminized or not real men. And in some ways it subverts that because he makes each of the tasks that we see him bad at in the beginning his own and because it humanizes him and for him, it humanizes Carolyn, because they have a conversation where, when she's sort of like you're letting yourself go, he's like my mind is oatmeal, like I'm watching the same shows as Megan the one-year-old and I like it. Like I'm watching the same shows as Megan the one-year-old and I like it. Like I can't like. He's sort of expressing like how mind-gumming it is and she's like you think I don't know I lived it. He says why didn't you tell me you were so unhappy? And she says I actually wasn't unhappy. I was proud of this house, I was proud of this family, I was proud to you know whatever. I was proud of this house, I was proud of this family, I was proud to you know, whatever. So it's like kind of like walk, like, like dancing around that line Right, and Jack makes the tasks his own.
Speaker 1:He actually does find a way to be competent at them. So we both have him in the very beginning, like the first time he goes grocery shopping, on the list is Kotex, and he is deeply embarrassed to buy Kotex, which is like and like so inept. He's so inept that he knocks shit down at every turn. So we keep hearing over the intercom clean up on aisle six, irv Like so much so that, like at the end, irv clean up on aisle seven and Jack's like Irv.
Speaker 2:I wasn't even near aisle seven.
Speaker 1:Because it's him every single time. So we have that in this movie. This like that femininity is embarrassing. But then we also have him find a certain amount of competence at it in a way that is not doesn't diminish him. Some of the folks on that I read who were sort of complaining about this film, said that they didn't like that the ending kind of returned them to normal and, like sent them back to their gender roles. I argue with those commentators because it didn't. She doesn't. I mean she quit her job because her boss made a pass at her, but it looks like she's going to accept this new negotiated like hybrid working, which still not fair to carolyn, because no doubt in her two days a week at home or three days a week at home, she's gonna have to be doing oh, the lion's share of the housework yeah, jack hasn't negotiated.
Speaker 2:No, three days a week, no, he'll be five days a week at the office.
Speaker 1:Uh, so it's, it's still not fair to carolyn, but it's not quite the sort of return to normalcy, so-called, that I think the commentators that I was reading were feeling like then kind of undid the work that had been done in the previous, you know, 85 minutes of the movie. It's also the case that like part of the trope is like that sort of shrug and like ha, boys will be boys, they, you know, of course he can't do women's work, you know, and then like he doesn't have to, is, I think the trope that we've been given, you know, like well, I mean, this movie is, is it? But that's actually not what happens. That's just how it starts, and that's true for any task that we haven't done before, and so and part of the takeaway for jack is how fucking hard it is, and so I feel like it's more nuanced than just the kind of like men can't do women's work because they're men and it's women's work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So so those are. That's some of the ways that I feel, like I was pleasantly surprised and like, looking back at it, I'm like, actually, this is not as bad as I thought that it was going to be.
Speaker 2:Well, and that that would explain why mom liked it well, and that that would explain why mom liked it.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah. Now on the flip side, um, some of the things that by 2025 eyes, I'm just like oh hell, no, are that? Ron richardson is like I maybe got carried away and that's it, there's no consequences. That's the extent of the consequence and that he's going to have to pay her more or like, except you know she has now the negotiating power. Like that, that's the consequences to him and a broken nose.
Speaker 2:Well and yeah, in the real world he could have very easily pressed charges against her for breaking his nose.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I don't even know what kind of laws there were against sexual harassment in 1983.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so that like really is really bothersome to me bothersome to me.
Speaker 2:It also like we've talked a little bit before about how we, especially movies made in the eighties. There is this, and it kind of because it was true, this sense that that is just the price of being a woman.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in the workforce Totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Totally yeah. So that that is how that reads. Yeah, and it's. It's bothersome.
Speaker 1:Today there's another scene, like talking about gender and masculinity that I didn't even name, where there's this ridiculous party at Richardson's, like estate, where they do these games that are like absurd games that the dudes all take part in, so it's all the workers. But then Richardson passive-aggressively, like goads Jack into playing as well. So think like running races but wearing big flippers and like tricycle races on, like slaloms and stuff. And the guys who work at the agency make it clear that they lose on purpose because Richardson needs to win for his ego and Jack's like I don't work for him and they're like, yeah, but your wife does. And Jack is winning and Eve turns to him like it's near the finish line.
Speaker 1:Eve turns to Carolyn and is like what's he doing? And she's like winning. And then he looks over and sees Eve kind of freaking out, talking to Carolyn and Jack throws it. He falls intentionally. And then we see richardson like celebrating, like popping champagne, like he actually won something and that sort of like that competitive masculinity around stupid shit, like really reads as an indictment of toxic masculinity. But also jack buys into it and carolyn buys into it because she says I owe you one for having thrown the race, yeah, which again sort of like what you're saying, like it's like a time capsule, kind of like it was it's period accurate and I think it was an indictment as much as 1983 was able to give of that kind of like competitive, like who's got the bigger dick, kind of masculinity that is still happens today uh absolutely, but I just I hope we can critique it more strongly than this than that scene was able to do.
Speaker 1:So I mean, to a certain extent, I feel like this film really gave us a critique of masculine and feminine coded roles and identities that were needed, and I think that Hughes actually went as far as he was able in 83. So looking back at it now, I'm like it didn't go far enough, but I think it went pretty far for 83.
Speaker 2:It's a 42 year old movie, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's, that's kind of where I'm landing. On the gender stuff. Now, one thing I didn't talk about at all, except in the introduction, is sort of labor and work. And there's, it's just, it's like it's kind of like backdrop, it's like significant but also not text. It's only subtext, right, because there's a labor that's being done in the home, which is obvious.
Speaker 1:I mean, that is text to a certain extent. But then we also have the labor of the long hours that Carolyn is expected to work for what really feels like stupid stuff, you know, like the owner of the schooner tuna is made to look absolutely ridiculous. There's we see assembly line workers from the automaker and yet we never really there's no text about their work or working conditions or the consequences for them. They're just comic relief to a certain extent. We see the interactions between Jeffrey Tambor's Jinx, who is a schmuck, and the other three guys who are also sort of middle, who are middle management. I mean, I think they're meant to be engineers but they're definitely, you know, the white collar side of the automaker I.
Speaker 2:I want to say the like. We can make this more efficient.
Speaker 1:Load up the washer as full as possible is very engineer coded you know, in that moment he says when I was in the army I ran a tight ship and one of the kids goes dad, there are no ships in the army. The more efficient about the save time with the detergent and the other stuff all in the washer at the same time also feels that way.
Speaker 2:That's very engineer coded.
Speaker 1:So I don't actually have a whole lot to say about it. I mean, and I think maybe that's kind of why some of the commentators are like this is a sitcom because it really did just.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's set with the auto industry and the downturn in the economy as the backdrop and it never actually talks about it. I mean it is significant because that's the pitch that carolyn makes as the advertising agency to lower the price of the cans instead of doing stupid gimmicks. But it's not actually the text, it's just sort of backdrop and I don't know that I have a critique of that exactly, but I wanted to note it.
Speaker 2:So something that this is bringing up for me the fact that Jack never thought about what his wife's day-to-day life was like which I think is not uncommon, which I think is not uncommon, but it is something that's like did he actually never think about it or did he choose not to ever think about it?
Speaker 1:Well, I think there's an extra like there's. I want to put a finer point on this, on your point here, because it wasn't worth thinking about, right? It's not even like choosing not to think about it, the way that I'm like choosing not to think about something that, like, bothers me or that doesn't interest. It didn't interest him. It was beneath him.
Speaker 2:Yes, I, there's a and I'll link to it in the show notes. Um, there's a, an essay from like the late sixties or early seventies. So a woman in the like that second wave feminist movement, writing an essay about how I want a wife, because a wife takes care of all these things. And then she talks about how her partner comes in and says what are you writing about? And she ends with saying, like, well, I'm writing about housework. And he says, why would you write about something so trivial? So, so, yeah, that's that, that, that's, that's exactly it. But that gets to. Men in over and over again are not thinking about the experience of women. So the reason why carolyn does well at the ad agency is because, like, she's actually been grocery shopping and none of the other executives have been, and it's presumably they're all men.
Speaker 1:It's like there's, I think there's like two other women in the room of, in a room of like 12 to 15 people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's been made clear like keep your head down and your mouth shut. So the other women are doing that, and had Richardson not been attracted to Carolyn, he wouldn't have invited her to speak, Maybe. And so like they're ignoring the experience of the people who are their target market? Yeah, and then Richardson himself is ignoring Carolyn's experience, like not thinking about what would it feel like if my boss came into my hotel room?
Speaker 1:Well, he doesn't just ignore her like his empathetic thoughts about her experience. He ignores her words, her words yeah, get out.
Speaker 2:She could not have been clearer you to leave, she says yeah, that level of like, just glossing over, like women's experiences, women's words, women's preferences, women's wants don't matter yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think sort of the core story of this, which apparently is like somewhat like based on a John Hughes experience where he had to stay home because his wife had a thing for a week or something like so and he was in charge of the young kids it's that case of like the man who doesn't get it till he gets it. I mean even that sort of the conversation that he has when, when, but that they have when she says you think I don't know.
Speaker 2:I've been living it for eight years.
Speaker 1:Um and and and that and then that, like why didn't you tell me you were unhappy, like that. That line actually feels really significant to me and her response is I wasn't unhappy, but he is, and so there's something like now that's before, he has his sort of like, gets his shit together and makes it his own. But that feels really significant in sort of the what I said before about recognizing the labor that she was doing.
Speaker 1:I think that's the sort of didn't think it was important, like I don't want to go over the checklist again. Okay, we better go over the checklist again. And even with the list, he still is doing it wrong over and over and over again. He's trying to buy meat at the deli. Give me ham. She says the five different kinds of ham, he doesn't know what kind. Okay, well, just give me some cheese. And then she lists like 20 kinds of cheese. He has no idea how many decisions, how much work it is. He didn't get it until he got it.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like the men who don't understand women or people until they have a daughter, right?
Speaker 2:Uh, it's also it in some ways feels a little infuriating because we're still having these same. There's still a huge mental labor gap, uh, and and household labor gap, gap between men and women, and there are so many things out there. There's a card game called Fair Play, based on a book by Yvon Rodsky called Fair Play, and just like what you know, he didn't even think about it because it was insignificant to him. He didn't even think about it because it was insignificant to him. Like there is a lot of like. Oh well, it doesn't matter and it just works out because someone who recognizes that it matters, we'll make sure it happens, because otherwise, you know the kids are, are are affected, or you know you're not able to go to work because you don't have clean clothes, and there that, that sense of like. Well, no, my purpose is, you know, I put on the suit and I go out in the house and out of the house and I work and bring home the money and that's the contribution. It's a bit infuriating because there is a sense of like, because there is a sense of like, intentional myopia, because it works well for the men who can take advantage of this system, whether or not they are fully aware of it. And so, on the one hand, it is like heartening that John Hughes had this realization and he put this into a movie over 40 years ago, because, like, people are more likely to listen when it's wrapped up in, you know, charming Michael Keaton and making you laugh, but at the same time, it's just like why do we need this? And then it's because the things that he is struggling with in terms of competency are basic life skills.
Speaker 2:This is not arcane knowledge. And, yeah, you're going to get it wrong with the. You drop off on the North and pick up on the South. You're going to get that wrong. Like, these are things that you don't know. You figure it out. Like you get to the deli counter and you don't know what kind of ham say. Like I got three kids. Do you know what kids like best? You know, like, what's your favorite? You figure it out. You don't go oh, this is so hard and right.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean Jack doesn't say, ah, this is so hard, he just kind of moves on but and holds up the line. There's a bunch of women behind him going like come on, man, make up your mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it's, it's like that. That is the um, the, the learned helplessness is is what I'm I'm kind of responding to, because I don't accept that from my kids. When they're like I don't know how to do this, I'm like, okay, well, what do you do when you don't know how to do something? Yeah, and like I have had moments like this. I'm going to try to not tell tales out of school, but I'll mention a friend who was telling me about how her husband needed to do, needed to either pick up their son or like call the school or something like that, when normally this was something my friend would take care of and like they had that, she had to like put the task on his list. And then he said what's the name of the school he goes to, oh my god. And she just looked at him and he's like what, I'll look it up. This gets into my day job.
Speaker 2:I write about finance. Women are statistically better investors than men are, and it's because women are not operating with unearned confidence and in fact, they tend to be very shy and nervous about investing, and so they double and triple check their work before they make any decisions, whereas men are much more likely, like I got a hot tip about this new crypto coin and like put it all in on that, so, and that's, that's a socializing thing. Like you know, that is a superpower for women that comes from being cut off at the knees over and over and over and over and over and over again, but it's just it's. It feels infuriating that I mean like Jack is is overfilling the washer and his kids are saying I don't think this is going to work and he's like, ah, now I know better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he says that repeatedly yeah I I do want to ask, since, since the the woobie worried you, what was going on with that? I mean, like you said that he's like you know, he starts with blankets and by the time you're an adult, it's full-size comforters. Is it just that?
Speaker 1:he shouldn't need it. I mean, at one point he says to, to, when he's trying to prove to Carolyn that she's not as present. He says you know? He says Megan just cut two teeth. Did you even know that? And you know, alex isn't using his whoopee anymore, he doesn't need it. Did you even know that? I think it's just sort of. I think there are those who think that, you know, security blankets are childish and should be outgrown. I think there are those who think that security blankets are childish and should be outgrown. I think it's just that, although he does, at that one moment when he's given the alphabet to himself, why did I take the whoopee away? There's no further explanation than that given.
Speaker 2:I wonder if the middle child had been a girl, like the child of the whoopee had been a girl instead of a boy, if that would have changed things about the child having the I don't know that kind of tough love parenting, which it's know, it seems a little, he does not burn the whoopee, he burns, he burns his shirt, and then he invites the child to put the whoopee in the fire, and the kid doesn't.
Speaker 1:He runs away and he follows him and that's when he gives him that talk about you know. And then he says how about if I, just you, let me hold the whoopee for a couple of weeks? I'll hold onto it and we'll see how you do without it. And and and um, kenny accepts that, and so he hands the whoopee over, and then Kenny says I think I need a few minutes alone. And Jack is like okay, man, okay. And so he walks away and we stay with the kid who lies down on his bed on his back, hands behind his head, like elbows out, and the camera kind of pans back to see this child in this repose, which I think is meant to show him sort of like maturing. So I think it is about sort of outgrowing childish things. You may be right that there's gender to it.
Speaker 2:Well, and I I have heard stories from men and women, um like our stepfather talks about his. His father got rid of his, his like a security teddy was yeah. And then a girlfriend of mine recently told me about how she had hers until she was in her 20s and she was visiting an aunt and uncle and without her knowledge they threw it away in a dumpster while driving Jesus, so she couldn't even go get it. So I know that that is in the zeitgeist as part of like- I think it's just in the zeitgeist.
Speaker 1:I think it's that sort of sense. That is childish and one can't grow up if one's holding on to childish things, which listeners I completely reject, because anything that allows us to self-soothe that is not immoral, illegal or self-destructive like why wouldn't we hold on to it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, and I mean props to dad for recognizing that.
Speaker 1:Cause he? No, he did. I remember he. He calmed me with it. He said you can have your pillow as long as you want, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I never, I never worried about it Like that, didn't? I don't remember that being a concern watching that, that film, I think, cause I was too afraid of the washing machine, but that that also like the fact that it's the father who gets the whoopee away from the kid yeah, it's, I'm sure that that contributed, I'm sure sure that yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:One more thing I want to want to uh point out, or you know, just kind of mention. So a lot of times when, um, women complain about men not doing their fair share at home, men will say, well, it's because you gatekeep, you know, you don't let me do it my way. And there is. There can be some truth to that in some ways, but oftentimes it's like it's also a way of being like weaponized incompetence.
Speaker 1:Yes, completely. I also feel like there's like a double standard, because a lot of those same men who say that, like if you were to use something of theirs and not use it the way that they want it used, they would freak out you know, yeah, so so if you like, if they had, like tools that you didn't put away or use the way that they. You know, like I, the, the wife is expected to learn to do the thing the way he likes it done.
Speaker 2:If he's the sort of owner of it.
Speaker 1:I'm putting quotes around the word owner, but if she's the owner of it and she doesn't allow the husband to do it the way he wants it done, then she's gatekeeping and she doesn't allow the husband to do it the way he wants it done.
Speaker 2:Then she's gatekeeping. Well, and the reason why I wanted to bring that up is, like you're talking about when he kind of realizes like no, I really got to make this work. He makes these tasks his own, he makes competency his own, and I don't like I think that's a both-end moment because, on the one hand, I think that's really great and something that I think we need to be teaching, especially young men and boys, as, like they're there, that's woman's work, or that's not something for you to do, or it's, it's effeminate, whatever you know, finding a way for you to do it that you enjoy and feels good and works with your brain, chemistry and your preferences, is great. Like that's that. Just, you know it doesn't matter how the groceries get brought in, it matters that they are. You know it doesn't matter how the kids get clean and so so, like on the one hand, I think that's great, but on the other, like it also feels like, come on, man, it's just groceries and washing. Like it doesn't.
Speaker 1:It doesn't require reinventing the wheel, you can just do it the same way that your mom, your wife, your sister, you know whatever woman in your life does it yeah, yeah, in this movie, though, in particular, like I think it's interesting because part of the reason that he is incompetent with the things in the beginning is because he doesn't do it the way she does it, like with the washing machine and even with the vacuum cleaner, like he leaves it sort of unattended and it's super powerful and pulls the drapes down and stuff and he ends up having to like wrestle it, you know. So it's this movie kind of gives gives both, you know, and the things that really matter.
Speaker 1:We see him doing it the way everybody does, it Drop off from the North and pick up from the South, or whatever it is and the reason Annette gives that is so that the the kids don't have to walk through traffic oh, yeah, yeah should be the same every time because the school's always on the same side.
Speaker 1:But whatever, um, okay, I feel like I. We has folks, we had some, um, technical difficulties. I'm not actually sure how long we've been talking as I record, but it's been a long time. It's been 17 hours three weeks later, um, so let me see if I can do a little synthesis in the disjointed conversation that we had that hopefully won't feel disjointed to our listeners. So I actually I want to start. This is I did. I don't know if I said this.
Speaker 1:This movie is just really, really funny. Like Michael Keaton is really charming and fun and cute and he's so thin and young and Terry Garr is beautiful and charming. It's just fun. It's a fun, funny movie. Like I laughed out loud several times. It's just fun. It's a fun funny movie. Like I laughed out loud several times. So this movie is like took on the idea of a stay-at-home dad. Before that was a thing, right. Like one commentator I read said that there were six, six self-reported stay-at-home dads in the United States in 1983. Now there are like two million. So like this was like six, like one, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. That's what the commentator claims. Oh my gosh. So this was not a thing Like this was really like Hughes was investigating the idea of gendered roles before we were talking about it as a society. So props to him, honestly.
Speaker 1:I think, some of the things it gets right is sort of recognizing the labor that is involved and the ways in which the folks who don't do it don't see it until they have to, and I think that Hughes got that right in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:I was pleasantly surprised that the scene where the girlfriends, the moms, kind of hijack him and take him to male strippers does not devolve into homophobia, and I was really pleasantly surprised at that. He is discomfited, but there are no slurs, there's no. I mean it really. I like he kind of rolls with the punches and I think that was. I was really pleased and and uh, charmed by that scene. Uh, even like having received the number from the dancer, he just passes it on.
Speaker 1:He doesn't you know, so that was that was pretty cool. He just passes it on. He doesn't you know. So that was that was pretty cool. I think one of the things that's really that I like a lot, even in retrospect, is the way in which this film kind of lampoons toxic masculinity and fragile masculinity, right, and we are meant to really dislike him. And he is like his masculinity is toxic, both against other men and when directed at women, namely Carolyn, who he does not take no foreign answer for, and she has to actually punch him in the face in order to stop his advances. So that's all of that is is pretty cool.
Speaker 1:I think some of the things that like in retrospect like didn't go far enough though I think they went as far as they could in the eighties are the consequences for Richardson's bad actions, right, like it's kind of just, he's like yeah, I, I went overboard.
Speaker 1:That's the extent of apology or consequences. I mean he does get his nose broken, that that he has uh for for having sexually harassed, uh, a subordinate like not just a colleague but someone who reported to him and and like assaulted even like he's in her hotel room. Yeah, so the Jack, the, the place where Jack starts, is really gross, like he is very fragile when Carolyn says she might go back to work. The place where he lands is much more evolved and like a much more likable and, I expect, better partner to Carolyn and that's really cool. That's really cool housework and also the actual paid labor of, like, the assembly line and, uh, the blue collar workers who were dependent upon jobs. You know whether we're talking about actual detroit, which is where the movie is set, and auto workers, or just in general, because the movie, like her successful advertising pitch, hinges on the fact that it's a tough economy. That's subtext, it's never text.
Speaker 2:Also like thinking about exploitation, because again subtext the fact that Jinx lied and like basically threw his employees under the bus. That's a type of exploitation.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then Richardson wanting to sleep with his employee is a type of exploitation and all of that is just okay at the end.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and while it is not the case that the end sees a complete return to sort of the the normal world of the first scene, it is like kind of mostly that way, and so that if we remade this movie, well, it would have to have a different title for one thing, but if we were sort of sort of remake this concept, I would hope that that end would be a little bit more clearly defined as egalitarian and equitable.
Speaker 1:And the other thing that's missing, that I didn't name and I'll just want to name it now when we're talking about gender, is that though I actually think that the relationship between Carolyn and Jack is relatively healthy and loving and secure not that they don't fight, but that there's a core there. We don't actually see any positive female relations, like women-women relationships. Eve, the other woman who works for the agency, does sort of seem to come around, because at one point she says to Jack Carolyn's promotion was really well-deserved, and she seems to be sincere. Carolyn hasn't even told Jack that she got a promotion. So Eve seems to have come around. So there is like kind of, but there's also like this weird like Joan is supposed to be Carolyn's friend but it's also totally trying to sleep with Jack. It's just kind of like it doesn't give like a great picture of interactions between women.
Speaker 2:You know, there's an author I love, elizabeth Peters, and she also wrote under the name Barbara Michaels, who wrote like strong, independent women, but there were never any healthy friendships between women in these books. And, like, her most prolific period was during the 80s. And I bring this up because I feel like, in the same way, that it was taken as read that an attractive woman is going to be sexually harassed in the workplace because that's the price of being female in public. Women are going to compete with each other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the, the elizabeth peters, self-professed feminist, really believed in equality. But this was the world she lived in, um, and to the point where, like, she got a phd in egyptology, um, and was never able to get a job, because she got it in the 50s. And so, if there was an opening where they'd be willing to hire a woman, there was one, and so women would see each other as rivals, both because that's how the system pitted them and because that's how society taught them, yeah, so I am not surprised that that is what got got put into a john hughes film in 1983 yeah yeah so, anyway, um, is there anything that I forgot that you want to make sure that you?
Speaker 1:oh, we did spend some time talking about, like not from this film, but kind of like riffing on it the ways in which both um weaponized incompetence and sort of the idea of gatekeeping, which to me feels like it has a double standard in terms of gender, in terms of household labor. We did talk about that as kind of like riffing on concepts that come up in Mr Mom, what else did I forget? And then we should probably wrap concepts that come up in.
Speaker 2:Mr Mom, what else did I forget? And then we should probably wrap. We talked a little bit about, kind of like, how easy it is for men or people who are in the non-marginalized position to just ignore, to not even recognize, the labor being done by the people who are marginalized. Yeah, yeah, the labor being done by the people who are marginalized, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, actually I enjoyed returning to this one. There definitely are some things that, as with all of our films that we're looking back on from our childhood, like that needs to be talked about. But actually really did enjoy returning to it, I think, as a time capsule of 1983, it's it's, it's fun. It's fun to return to. So what are you bringing me next week?
Speaker 2:So next week I am bringing you my deep thoughts on Groundhog Day. Oh, right on time.
Speaker 1:You did that on purpose. I did, I did, all right. Well, I'll look forward to hearing your deep thoughts then. All right, see you then. Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy. But don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?