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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about Alien
I admire its purity. A survivor…unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.
After many references in previous episodes, on this week’s show, the Guy Girls finally tackle the iconic 1979 film Alien. Ridley Scott’s masterpiece gave Tracie and Emily a role model in Ripley, played by Sigourney Weaver to be smart, tough, vulnerable, and right. While many commentators have explored the ways this film works as an allegory for rape and loss of bodily autonomy, Emily’s analysis takes it a little deeper, comparing the words and actions of the villainous science officer Ash to the modern anti-abortion movement. Both focus on protecting potential life–while treating the very real humans who will be harmed as entirely expendable.
Throw on your headphones, save the cat, and take a listen…
CW: Discussions of rape, forced birth, and loss of bodily autonomy
Mentioned in this episode
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0473709/trivia/?ref_=tt_dyk_trv
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vantage_Point_(film)#:~:text=In%20the%20original%20script%2C%20Rex,the%20film%20a%20strong%20female.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
Now, the idea that this film is actually an allegory for, rather than abortion, forced birth, anti-abortion is something that I don't know people talk about as much, and I really want to kind of like focus on what I see there and why I think that is so important and so interesting.
Speaker 2:What others might deem stupid shit. You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. We're sisters, tracy and Emily, collectively known as the Guy Girls. Every week, we take turns re-watching, researching and reconsidering beloved media and sharing what we learn. Come overthink with us and if you get value from the show, please consider supporting us. You can become a patron on Patreon or send us a one-time tip through Ko-fi. Both links are in the show notes and thanks.
Speaker 1:I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I am going to be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1979 classic Alien with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, and with you. Let's dive in. All right, Tracy. I know you've seen it. We have referenced it multiple times. So, many times, but tell me what you know.
Speaker 2:Remember love about Alien me what you know remember, love about alien. So this is one that like, though I associate it with dad, not because he showed it to us, because I think this is one he actually protected us from, like not so much, but alien yes. So, uh, I didn't see it until I was close to it being an adult, if not an adult, and so I don't have like like old, old memories with it. But I friggin love Ripley, like adore her, like she's one of those fictional characters that I don't know if I want to be her or be with her, and uh, yeah, so I also like think, well, we have referenced this film many times on deep thoughts, in fact, in the show notes I'll go back and see if I can find all the times we've referenced it and link to those other shows.
Speaker 2:But the thing that really I think one of the reasons she's such a touchstone for me as a fictional female character, is that she's brilliant, she's tough, she's right, tough, she's right. Nobody listens to her. She's the only one who survives, and yet she is not sexualized, like there's that one moment where she's in her underwear, but even when she's on her underwear, it's like to make her more vulnerable, I think, not to sexualize her, which is so, so rare, like it is so hard for me to find in my memory bank a badass woman, fictional character in, with whom, in whom I can self insert, who isn't hyper-sexualized, or at least somewhat like, like Ripley isn't even. It's not that she's not hypersexualized, she's not sexualized. And one doesn't realize that one is missing, that until you get it and you're like, oh, and it's like so refreshing. So anyway, that was a lot more than what I usually give.
Speaker 1:And then, what do you?
Speaker 2:remember, but like she's just really, really important to me. So I will just close by saying this movie is way scarier than ordinarily Tracy Guy Decker would be comfortable with. So that's just a testament to how awesome Sigourney Weaver as Ripley is, and I'll leave it at that. Yeah, so we've talked about it a bunch of times, so I think I know why we're talking about it today. But tell me, why are we talking about it today?
Speaker 1:So, like you, I associate it with dad in part because there was in downtown Baltimore there's the Senator Theater. It's a classic movie theater with like single screen, gorgeous old theater, and dad on more than one occasion would talk about how the best cinematic experience of his life was going to the senator theater when they did a revival double feature of alien and then aliens, and it was before the third movie came out, which I also recall dad hating. He never saw it. He never saw it. But oh, he had strong opinions because no, that never kept him from having strong opinions.
Speaker 2:He was very classically male in that way.
Speaker 1:but I'll, honestly, I'll give him this one because, uh, the all aliens, um ripley is trying to protect a child, newt um, and at the end they they go into like the sleep stasis thing, and because it's six years between films, like they can't have Newt in the next film.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they just kill her off while she's sleeping.
Speaker 1:Yeah and Dad. Like Dad would have accepted any other way of writing her out, but the fact that, like she spent two hours fighting aliens, like two hours of film time fighting aliens to protect this child and they just kill her in her sleep, no, and like the franchise was dead to him after that.
Speaker 2:I don't know that I could have pulled that out of my memory bank before you said it, but now that you're saying it I very clearly remember it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I showed last year I showed uh tracy, or maybe the year before um the the tv, the movie nope, which came out long after dad had passed away. And uh, one of the things about the movie is it's an indictment of how children, child actors are, are used in in hollywood. Uh, and dad had very strong opinions about children in films and child actors and so like his and even fictional children. So I mean, that's what. That's the reason why he hated um the world, according to garp, is because of what happens to a fictional child and so like. It's something that I just associate so strongly with dad and you know, dad having opinions about things he's never seen.
Speaker 1:Generally I'm not a fan of that. This I kind of I'll give him. So I have similar strong opinions about the. Uh, the sex in the city reboot. So that's that's uh. Part of the reason why I wanted to talk about it was because of dad. And then, of course, what we talk about about how, what a badass ripley is. The film came out the year I was born and feeling like there's so few, there's so few female heroes like Ripley, there's so few and far between when this came out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you never existed in a world in which there wasn't a Ripley.
Speaker 1:Yeah exactly, exactly. So I mean, that's it's just. It's both amazing and horrifying. So that's that's part of why I want to talk about it. Then the fact that and I I don't think that Ridley Scott or the um, the writers of the script necessarily knew this was what they were doing, but they have written an amazing allegory for rape and abortion, specifically like body autonomy, and then add in like an indictment of capitalism and how it fits within that, and so that is also why I'm very interested in this film. And then talking about.
Speaker 1:We've talked multiple times about storytelling and how making a change after you've written the story can be so beneficial. And in originally, ripley was written to be a man. Now they didn't get to the point where they were casting and they cast Sigourney Weaver when it had been Elliot Ripley instead of Ellen Ripley, and it wasn't that it was multiple drafts before they got the casting. So they knew Ripley was a woman before they were doing the casting call. But still there's a lot that was left in there, because the assumptions about a male character are different from what the assumptions about a female character would be had they written her as Ellen Ripley from the very beginning, right, right.
Speaker 1:So and that aspect of storytelling. And then there's a couple of things that I learned about why things are the way they are, that were like the authors trying to solve problems that they've written themselves into and like it's just gorgeous, it's lovely, and I love how that happens. Like, oh, we've written ourselves into a corner, how do we get out of it? I love those. So that's another aspect that I want to talk about. So there's so much in here. This might just be me. You know, 50 minutes of me gushing.
Speaker 2:All right, well, I look forward to the gush, but start us off. Remind me of the plot.
Speaker 1:Okay, gonna try to be succinct. So we are introduced to the Nostromo, which is a commercial spaceship that is returning from mining some sort of ore on its way back to Earth. There are seven people on the ship. There's the Captain, dallas, who's played by Tom Skerritt. There is the second in command, kane, who is played by John Hurt. Third in command is Ripley, played by Sigourney Weaver. We have the science officer, ash, played by Ian Holm. We have Lambert, the only other woman played by Veronica Cartwright it's not entirely clear to me what exactly her role is. And then we have the two engineers, parker, played by Yafit Kato, and then Rhett, played by Harry Dean Stanton.
Speaker 1:Now, quick, interesting thing about Yafit Kato. I was looking him up because I watched with my spouse. He's like I recognize him. What do I recognize him from? And he was on Homicide Life on the Streets. He is a black actor. His father was from Cameroon and I was like, oh weird, his father's name was Avram. And my husband was like was his dad Jewish? And then I looked it up yes, his dad was Jewish and his mother converted to Judaism. And so Yafet Kodo, in his Wikipedia page, talks about his like study of Hebrew and was a practicing Jew. So cool, not expected he was Mikvacha.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So those are the seven individuals on the ship. And then there is also a ship cat named Jonesy or Jones. So they have been woken up from stasis. They believe it's because they are nearly at Earth. And then the captain Dallas. There's a for-yours-eyes-only message from Mother, which is what they call the ship's computer, and it's because it's M-U-T-H-U-R but they call the ship's computer Mother, and she has a female voice. Turns out that they are not near Earth, they are a while away. But they intercepted a message. It's unclear what it is, but it's repeating every 12 seconds. It's clearly some sort of intelligent life and they have been woken to go investigate, interested in going. All they care about is getting their money and getting home.
Speaker 1:But Ash, the science officer, points out that part of their contract is they are required to check out these kinds of distress calls or whatever they are, or else they forfeit all of their money. So the Nostromo, their ship is huge and there is like a landing ship that undocks from it that they take down to the surface. The shuttlecraft yeah, it's the shuttle, basically, although there's a separate thing that is a shuttle later. That's like a lifeboat shuttle, okay, and whatever it is, they dock powers the entire thing. So they land on the planet and there is some sort of something breaks on the ship in a very spectacular way and it's not clear how it happens or what happens. But they are going to have to dry dock the ship, which means like clear everything out to fix everything.
Speaker 1:So the captain, dallas, second in command, kane and then Lambert all go to investigate the distress call in spacesuits. What they discover is this kind of phallic shaped spaceship. There is a fossilized, destroyed alien creature sitting in like a captain's chair. They continue examining things and they find this hold, this cargo hold full of what appears to be like eggs. Kane is down investigating by himself and one of the eggs like bursts open and like jumps on him. Whatever's inside jumps on him.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile, on the ship, ripley is trying to decode the signal that's been sent every 12 seconds and determines that it seems like it's not an SOS, it seems like it might be a warning. Dallas and Lambert come back with Kane, who is unconscious and he has been attacked. There's something on him. Ripley refuses to open the airlock, saying like you know, quarantine procedures 24 hours. Dallas is saying like I don't know Kane's going to live 24 hours and Ripley's like I'm sorry, like there's, there's four of us in here. We might all die. Ash, however, is right by where the airlock is, and so he manually opens it and lets them in. They bring Kane into the infirmary and they discover that he has what is now known as the face hugger, with this creepy creature thing over his face that has something down his throat. He appears to be in some sort of coma, and Ash thinks that it may be delivering oxygen to him. They try to cut a piece of it off and the blood drips down, and it turns out to be like this extremely corrosive acid.
Speaker 2:Oh, I remember that it goes through like multiple levels of the ship.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, ripley goes and basically gives Ash what for about his role in letting them in and putting them all in danger. And Ash basically says like my job as a science officer, let me do my job. They are continuing to work on fixing the ship. They get it fixed and are back up to the main part of the Nostromo, to redock there, and calls dallas to come back to the uh infirmary because the facehugger is all of a sudden gone. It's no longer on kane's face. So they go looking for it, like try to figure out where it went. In the infirmary they keep leaving doors open. It's just like what are you doing? It ends up falling from overhead onto Ripley but it appears to be dead. Dallas wanted to put it in the airlock and blast it into space and Ash, the science officer, overrode him. They don't know what it is, they don't know if it's carrying some sort of disease, they don't know what's going on. And Dallas is just not willing to butt heads with Ash over it and he basically says to Ripley, like look, I'm the captain, but this is under the purview of the science officer, I'm not going to fight him on it, I just want to get home.
Speaker 1:At this point we learn that they are 10 months away from Earth. They're still monitoring Kane. He's still in the coma. Then a little bit later he wakes up and he appears to be fine. So they let him know. Okay, we're about to go back into stasis. He's like can I have something to eat first? And they're like, oh, absolutely sure, we're about to go back into stasis. He's like, can I have something to eat first? And they're like, oh, absolutely sure, we're gonna have, you know, our last meal. They're all sitting together, and that is when we have the, the very famous chest burster burster scene.
Speaker 2:yeah, so they blast port cane's body out into space and then wait for that, because the little like hello my baby, hello my honey guy, like running around the ship right.
Speaker 1:Yes, uh, it's also. They don't have a place for a body. I mean, I think that's also just that's what you do with a dead body if someone dies, it's protocol. So they end up they go looking for they, because now they're six and they break into groups of three and three. They're not sure what they need to do, but they are going to try to catch it. And it was small, I mean, it was like burst out of a human being.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is why I compared it to the dancing frog.
Speaker 1:Well that actually you did that because that's what they did in Spaceballs. Right, you're right, and I really wish I had seen Alien before I saw Spaceballs. So it is, ripley is with Rhett and Parker, so the two engineers, and Dallas is with Lambert and Ash. We follow Ripley's group. They have something that Ash has come up with that basically detects motion. So they are following something that detect motion. Turns out to be the cat that is terrified and runs off because Brett allowed it to get away, because he's like it was just the cat, because he was prepared to catch, and they're like, yeah, but we still need to catch it because it's going to keep setting off the motion detector. So he goes after the cat. He finds a shed skin, which is the only indication that we have that the xenomorph is now bigger than it used to be. I see he is able to find the cat and is trying to grab him and the cat starts hissing at something behind him and of course, it's the xenomorph that is now seven feet tall and kills him.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, it grew quick, it grew quick it grew quick, they reconvene, they realize that the xenomorph does xenomorph come fromi?
Speaker 1:don't know that's just what the, what the uh franchise calls them. Okay, so I mean I'm guessing xeno means like foreign and morph means to, to change, so it's a changeable alien.
Speaker 2:Okay, cool, all right.
Speaker 1:So seven foot tall changeable alien, yes, so they determined that it is using the air shafts to get around. And, remember, this is an absolutely massive cargo ship, so, like, trying to find it is difficult. So they think, okay, well, since we know that it's using the air shafts, we can shut it off, because we can close up air shafts. And so they are going to try to force it into an airlock and then blast it out into space. But how do they force it? Like they don't know exactly what to do. They can't shoot it because its blood can destroy the hull.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Also, it's a spaceship and like like you don't want holes, yeah. So basically they they have flamethrowers. They're like you know what about temperature? It's probably not gonna be okay with fire. So lambert asks who's gonna go on the air shafts and ripley says I will and dallas says no, I will go, and that feels to be in part his acknowledgement that he was wrong earlier. That that's sort of him this is his fault.
Speaker 2:Yes, this is his penance.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, so they are again have some sort of like motion detector, the like x-ray motion detector thing. It's very 1970s technology but it fits, because this is such a like this is a blue collar ship. It's like this is nobody cares about this ship, Just as long as it works. They're there to get in, get out, get their war, whatever Utilitarian. Yes, so they're. They're trying to keep track of it and helping the captain find where the alien is, and they know that it's nearby, but he can't see it. They don't know what's going on.
Speaker 2:And then he's screaming and he has died as far as I can tell, we don't see it happen.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's terrifying. So that means that there's now only four. It's Ripley who is now the commanding officer, because the captain and the second in command are both dead Ash, the science officer, parker the engineer and Lambert I think she's the pilot, but it's not entirely clear. Anyway, they're like okay, so what do we do? Nowley says let's do like, let's continue with, uh, with the captain's plan. And Lambert is like no, let's go in the, the escape shuttle, and take our chances. And Ripley says the escape shuttle isn't built for four people, we can't do that. She says look, I'm the captain now, so that means that I can talk directly to mother and get the for your eyes only stuff. So I'm going to go do that and see if that can help us figure out what we need to do.
Speaker 1:She goes into, like, the private chamber that has that and again, just as it did with Dallas, it doesn't really give her much information, and so she is not trusting Ash, and has not been trusting him for a while, and starts asking more questions like okay, what's going on with the science officer?
Speaker 1:Turns out that he has a secret mission that is for his eyes only, and she says, okay, override, because I'm the captain, which I found it kind of cool that she's allowed to do the override, cause you know, like that, that's one of those things where, like yeah it, mother, really is just a computer program, so there must be overrides, and things like that. It turns out that his mission is to bring back a living sample of this organism and all other orders are rescinded and the crew is expendable. Oh what? So she is. And the other thing I like about Ripley, especially in this film I haven't seen further along because I feel like it got more and more like stoic action movie but she's crying and that is a very human response and makes sense, and she looks up and ash is in this, for your eyes, only booth with her that he's not supposed to be able to get into how did he get in there?
Speaker 1:because he is the only one that the, the, he's like the real. Yeah, he's really the one who's really in charge of the ship. We had learned earlier. Because Ripley asks Dallas, what do you know about Ash? And he's like well, I worked with a different science officer for like my last three missions, who was replaced two days before we left with Ash.
Speaker 1:So ash starts to say there's, there's an explanation. And she like runs away from him and he starts attacking her and like is something weird's going on with him? Like he's, he's making weird faces and noises. And then he starts like like sweating or bleeding something white and is trying to um kill her in the weirdest way possible. He's got like like he has finds a magazine, he like rolls it up and he's like putting it over her mouth. It's very bizarre.
Speaker 1:So Parker and Lambert arrive and they end up like fighting with him, uh, and like I don't remember exactly how they do it, but like hitting his head so that it falls off. It turns out that ash is a robot, weird. So they, they get him completely like turned off, like destroyed, basically. But then you see ripley is like all right, let's, let's uh reattach him and um parker's like why she says he might know how to destroy these things. So we need to question him. And so that's that amazing scene where it's just like his head up and he's covered in that white gunk that's on the inside of him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he doesn't give them any information about how to destroy the alien, doesn't give them any information about how to destroy the alien. He talks about this is his mission to bring it back and that everyone's expendable. And he says something about how the alien is like this perfect survivor. And Parker says well, it sounds like you admire them. And he says I admire their purity, I admire that they are all about survival, with no question of morality or conscience and I just wanted to put a pin in that because it's part of what I want to talk about later. And he ends by saying I can't tell you what your odds are, but you have my sympathies. I can't tell you what your odds are, but you have my sympathies. Before they turn them off, and then Parker uses flamethrower to completely destroy everything. That like destroy ash, so it's just melted metal and everything.
Speaker 1:So they decide to go with Lambert's plan and get on the shuttle. Now there's only three. Now there's only three of them and chances are better anyway, like you know, they'll take their chances. So, parker, a full 10 months from Earth. Yes, ripley sends Parker and Lambert to get coolant from the engine room. Not entirely clear what that's needed for, but apparently it's needed. What they're going to do is they're going to get into the shuttle and they're going to set off the self-destruct of the Nostromo. The self-destruct sequence is 10 minutes long. After five minutes you can no longer turn it off. While Ripley is getting the shuttle ready and getting ready to do the self-destruct mode, she hears Jonesy meowing and so she goes after to find Jones. This was a point where my spouse was going like I don't think that that's like that's not the right thing to do, like the cat the cat die.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the cat won't suffer when the ship explodes. At that moment, like she has a little bit of time and my I argued that, having seen what Ash is willing to do to people who have nothing to do with this and is willing to allow them to die, I can see someone who has a conscience being like I will not be like that.
Speaker 2:I can take five minutes to look for the cat Swinging the pendulum too far the other way, yes.
Speaker 1:She manages to get the cat, she hears Lambert and Parker yelling. The alien has cornered Lambert and Parker is yelling at her to get out of the way because he's got the flamethrower but it's going to kill Lambert if he uses it at that moment and she is just frozen. She is frozen and like, like, like the fight, flight or freeze, she's free. And Parker eventually is like well, I can't, I can't leave her, I can't, I can't fight a fire. And so he tries to fight the alien with like, not hand-to-hand comment but and they both die, both Lambert and Parker.
Speaker 1:So Ripley hears that she knows what's going on, so she goes to the bridge to set off the self-destruct and she gets that going and she's heading back to the shuttle with Jones in a carrier and she runs into the alien that is in between her and the shuttle. So she goes back to the bridge to try to shut off the self-destruct because she needs more time to be able to get around the alien and is too late, is unable to do that. And is too late, is unable to do that. So she runs, sees no sign of the alien at that point, gets herself and Jones onto the shuttle, is able to get away just in time before the Nostromo completely blows up. At that point she's like all right, we're safe, jones and I.
Speaker 1:She puts the cat in the stasis machine that she's going to share with the cat and starts to get undressed. It's the point, you remember. When she realizes the alien is on the shuttle with her, it has kind of like hidden in like this, like bulkhead, so she shuts herself in like a closet where there's a space suit comes out. And this part I had completely forgotten and it is so cool.
Speaker 2:It's like a forklift.
Speaker 1:No, that's in Aliens.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's in the second one for going like, I think, going on planet, I don't think it's even for like spacewalks, I think it's.
Speaker 1:So she puts it on, puts on the helmet, and she is singing you Are my Lucky Star, and it's amazing.
Speaker 1:It's amazing because she's clearly terrified and she's doing this so that, like, she's got something to focus on and she is able to flush the alien out of the bulkhead. She buckles herself in and she has this like harpoon and she like shoots the alien with a harpoon and opens the hatch so that it is forced out, but it's still attached to the harpoon, which is like stuck on her as well, and so, like she's closing the hatch and it's still like to the harpoon, which is like stuck on her as well, and so, like she's closing the hatch and it's still like able to come in, and so she, she fires the, the rocket boosters, and it burns up the alien's body and then she is finally safe and it ends with her making a like a ship log, saying like this is is what's happening, we are heading this direction, and she is petting the cat and feel safe and that's the end of the film. So good, so Passes. Bechdel, lambert and Ripley talk to each other about all kinds of stuff, which is great all right.
Speaker 2:And so, listeners, as a reminder, the bechdel test. We ask ourselves three questions. Are there at least two female characters who both have names? Do they talk to each other? Do they talk to each other about something other than a man or a boy?
Speaker 1:So I want to get into now. But like alien has been talked about and discussed and dissected so many times and so like I kind of want to talk about what it meant to me, rather than like reinvent the wheel of the things that people have said many, many times. Sure, like reinvent the wheel of the things that people have said many, many times, sure, so I can remember learning. So I saw the movie for the first time. I think I was in college it's been about 25 years and I remember learning.
Speaker 1:Not long after that people often saw it as an allegory for rape is very understandable, in that Kane is attacked and impregnated against his will and you know the look of the alien, which was designed by HR Giger and actually originally, apparently, ridley Scott. The director had to really really push for them, push for the studio to go with these designs because they looked so sexual and they have in fact toned them down a bit. But the alien looks very phallic and organic and there's a lot in there. Also, if you remember, the kind of glistening thing on the jaws was KY Jelly that they used for that which is entirely a special effects decision.
Speaker 1:that makes sense, but it also just kind of adds to it. So I think all of that is really really fascinating and it's something that has been well documented. Now, the idea that this film is actually an allegory for, actually, rather than abortion, forced birth, anti-abortion, is something that I don't know people talk about as much, and I really want to kind of like focus on what I see there and why I think that is so important and so interesting. So there are several things that kind of add to that idea. First of all, there's a lot in there Like the fact that the computer is called Mother. When Dallas is in the air shaftss, the I can't think what they're called when you close something, that the hatches. The hatches are, um, they're sphincters, they dilate and he is climbing through a canal, basically like a birth canal, and these, these hatches are, are closing behind him. They're dilating, closed, undilating, what's the opposite of dilating I don't know shrinking, um, so there's.
Speaker 1:There's that aspect of it like there's. There's quite a bit that have to do with pregnancy within the film, and in fact Ash refers to the alien that burst out of Kane's chest as Kane's son.
Speaker 2:Weird and Ash was the robot science officer.
Speaker 1:Yes, so all of that tells me that pregnancy is very much is intentional. It seems like Now I have no idea if Ridley Scott or I think O'Bannon was the name of the screenwriter and Shusett, I have no idea if they intended this, but there are a number of other things that make it clear to me that this is a very good allegory for the modern anti-abortion movement, because we have this, the corporation that is prioritizing this life form, this potential life, over the lives of people who are already there. Yeah, they're expendable, they're expendable. So, in the same way is similar to people overriding the ability to get plan B or or birth control, even it's. It's like you know, ripley is making the responsible choice, prudent, the prudent responsible choice and is not allowed.
Speaker 1:The fact that Ash is played by a man, I think is is really important, agreed. And then the thing that really got me. So we see ash at one point. Um, he eats, we see that. But there's one point where he is alone in the infirmary and he's drinking what looks like milk and and I remember thinking like that's really weird, like, you know, you'd think it would be coffee or something like that, and that is again seems like a very intentional choice. And then when he is destroyed and he is covered in white, white is often associated with purity or motherhood because of milk, because of milk.
Speaker 1:And at every point Ash acts as if he is doing the right thing and when he says I admire their purity. They are survival machines that have nothing to do with morality, conscience, and that very much reminds me of the kinds of arguments you get from anti-abortionists when they say, like we must protect the unborn because they are pure, they have no one to speak for them, or conscience of what is happening to the pregnant person who, for whatever reason, feels the need to terminate the pregnancy. And so I doubt that it was intentional in terms of anti-abortion, in part because in 1979, the anti-abortion movement wasn't what it is today, but it has so much resonance it is very clearly. Ash basically says I can't tell you what your odds are, but you have my sympathies. That feels very similar to well, have the baby, I don't care. Once you've had the baby, I don't care. Once it's once, once you've had the baby.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't care what happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and people who criticize an intention on purpose and reasonably criticize the anti-abortion movement. They talk about how the unborn are the perfect people to protect, because they ask for nothing.
Speaker 2:And they can't tell you what they want or critique the ways in which you speak on their behalf.
Speaker 1:And so, with all of that, it makes it even more amazing and important and necessary that the the Ripley is our hero.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that she lives. Yeah, you know it's interesting too. Like I know we're just talking about the first movie, but you talk about the bodily autonomy and whether or not it was on purpose. In the third movie there's that all like a whole host of ripleys, because they've been trying to clone her with the combined dna or whatever and one of them says to like the hero, sort of stoic action figure version.
Speaker 2:Kill me right, like, so, like, talk about, like an indictment of um of the what's the word I'm looking for of sealing someone's bodily autonomy yeah, yeah but that and that's like later in the franchise, not what this film is doing. But I think it does corroborate your thesis here that it's there because the the later filmmakers I don't even know if it's the same people or not like saw it and like pulled on that thread.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and then like this is so silly. But because my spouse and I had this back and forth about the cat and I understand where he's coming from, because he was saying like Ripley throughout is being very responsible.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then she now, at the time she didn't have anything she had to do at that moment, so she did have a couple of minutes to like okay, I'm going to try to get the cat. But I was also thinking about the fact that women are supposed to like get rid of their cats when they're pregnant because of the possibility of toxoplasmosis.
Speaker 1:Now it's honestly, that's me reaching, yeah that's just horrific and the presence of the cat in the film is a little like. My spouse was like why is there a cat on the ship? And my thinking is it's kind of like old-fashioned, like ships on the sea where they'd have a cat to take care of rodent population and like who knows, they might have a similar sort of problem on spaceships, sort of problem on on spaceships. So he was like well it's, there's the, the save the cat film writing, uh, screenwriting trope, and I'm sure this is where that came from. It does give her a reason to like lose focus at that end and and and all of that. But I also really do like my interpretation in that like this may not you convinced me, yeah.
Speaker 2:You convinced me with it that that she just I mean it's not just her physical survival Like she's also like, especially since we saw her cry, right, we saw it move her emotionally and upset her, and so this is, and and it makes sense to me that a manifestation of her rejection of that truth that made her cry would be to try and save the cat. That actually, that jibes for me. I believe that as an interpretation, as a motivation for that character who you're right Like has your spouse is right that she has been like no, you can't come back in to three humans, so why would she go after the cat? But I actually think that your explanation does make it make sense within character.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I feel like it also it fits. This is the same like. She is very good at her job, she is smart, she's right, she, she has focus, but she is also human and so she cries. At that point she goes after the cat and then she sings you are my lucky star, as she's trying to kill the alien and and ensure her own survival. And, like I, I see all of that as part of like. That is the ripley that peeks through when she cannot be the stoic action figure right, that's actually what makes her a fully formed human, yes, being, and not just an action figure yes, yes exactly
Speaker 1:yeah, that's nice, that's really nice and that's that's also what's great about it, because when we had like girl power in the 90s, it wasn't a full human being like, it was someone who could like fight and be sexualized, but then there was no like you don't know what song her parents sang to her when she was scared at night, you know.
Speaker 2:Right? No, for sure. No, she sprung fully formed, wearing her wonder bra from the mind of Marvel or whatever, yeah, yeah totally, Totally Well. I think this is actually a great segue to the last point that I want you to explore a little bit before we wrap up, to learn from that and what effect that has. I'd love, I'd love to like, do a little bit of.
Speaker 1:I think that's part of why she's fully formed human being, so let's pull on that thread a little bit more so, um and we've talked about this before about about how I am a big believer in waiting until the story is written to then change something essential like gender, race, age, because those are the sort of and when I say essential, I don't mean that they are essential, but they are the things that we have preconceived notions and biases about. Yeah, so it's why I love the idea of casting a woman as James Bond. Right, because if this had been written as like from the very beginning, where Ripley was a woman, it seems very unlikely that she would have been the fully formed character that we see Totally.
Speaker 2:She would have taken her clothes off a lot earlier.
Speaker 1:Oh, and I will say, as you mentioned, that moment when she is not dressed, I had remembered when I saw it, feeling like I really wish they didn't have to have that, but seeing it this time around, recognizing you're absolutely right. It is about vulnerability rather than it being about sexuality. And so there were some things, for Ridley Scott apparently had wanted the alien to like observe her and be like attracted or something. Ew, yeah, gross, ridley Scott attracted or or something.
Speaker 2:Ew yeah, gross and no. Well, I mean, hey, she's fucking prey what I mean he did.
Speaker 1:He, he did have that both end in blade runner. That was ridley scott as well. He also had originally thought about having ripley die and the alien like mimic her voice, which a completely different movie, like it just doesn't. That doesn't even fit.
Speaker 2:And all of that was once Ripley was a woman, right right, right, um, yeah, like beauty tamed the beast or something with the mimicking her voice.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, gross, yeah, yeah, no, no, my recollection of it and it's been it's been probably 10 years since I've seen it yeah, probably 10 years since I've seen it. But my recollection of it was really that it was about her being more vulnerable because she thought she was safe.
Speaker 1:Yes, and she's, definitely she's wearing like utilitarian undergarments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, my recollection is like kind of granny panties and a tank.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's the. The underpants aren't, aren't quite, they're just. They're what the company gives you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're not lingerie.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, they're underwear and they don't fit her that well, which is part of the reason why it's like this is what the company gives you, so I think that that is like this is one of the best examples of why I am such a believer in that. I think we also need to write original stories.
Speaker 2:We need both.
Speaker 1:We need both. We need both and in doing a little bit of research last night, this is one of three times Sigourney Weaver has taken a part that was originally written as a male character.
Speaker 1:No, kidding. Yeah, the other two were movies I'm not familiar with, so I'll include it in the show notes because it was just like oh, I'll have to go watch those, but they're none of her iconic characters. Got it to go, go watch those, um, but they're none of her like iconic characters. Got it? The other writing thing that I want to mention that I said like they wrote themselves into a corner oh, yeah, yeah, yeah so the reason why the blood is acid is because they had realized they didn't know why they couldn't Cut it off.
Speaker 1:Cut it off Well, I mean like once it's the seven foot tall alien why they couldn't attack it.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:With something more like, even with the flame thrower and stuff like that, they were afraid to like actually burn it, unless the alien was like just this invincible thing. They're like no, we don't want it to be invincible, it's organic. But we want there to be a reason why they can't just like go at it with machetes or whatever. Yeah, it's because it'll destroy the hall, uh, with its blood. And I was like I love that, because you create this iconic scene where, like it's hissing through and you're like holy crap, and they're like terrifying, they're chasing it down, like what do we do if it breaches the hull? But it also gives you this like very intelligent and logical reason why they can't just like because when they're trying to catch it, like you know, we'll just bring like knives and cut it off and like, no, you can't do that. Yeah, that's cool and that's just that's part of the writing process, like similar to like the process of like.
Speaker 1:Both writers and non-writers have this sense that you like write a story and that's it, it's done Right, writers should know better, but they often don't because, like, we are so hard on ourselves and non-writers, it's understandable, they don't realize. But you find solutions to problems and what is in our sister podcast, lightbringers. I've talked about how sometimes a writer will write something that solves the writer's problem, not the character's problem, and I hate that. I hate it when it happens because I can see the writer at work and the things that are like the most satisfying story-wise are ones that are like character-driven or make within the world, and so that was this was a make sense within the world um, yeah, and it just makes it make sense for us, as the viewer reminds me of the moment in jaws when the canisters, when he the he does the wrong knot and he says those things will explode.
Speaker 2:you know, like, so, like it's, it's, it's the Chekhov's gun, that doesn't say hey, hey, it's me, I'm Chekhov's gun.
Speaker 1:Hey, hey, hey, yes, it just is yes. And it also this also gave the, the characters more opportunity to be logical and rational. Yeah, yeah, it's just gorgeously written and there are. You know, my spouse afterwards because he had actually never seen it was asking me he's like well, why this particular you know cargo ship? And you know, is every science officer on every ship owned by the company a robot, or is it just this one? Did they know that they were going to be going by? Why not send? And I'm like, okay, you got good questions.
Speaker 1:But I was like, never underestimate corporate greed. He's like, no, no, no, I'm not doing that. And I was like and also corporate willingness to do something stupid because of corporate greed. So, like you know, they don't want to send a ship specifically. But you know, if one of the push for women to people to have children against their will is that we have more workers and we have more people who are reliant on work to make sure that they can survive, maybe, well, because abortion is always legal for people who have money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, so there's a lot here, oh, yeah, here, yeah, so let me see what I can do. Um, so, this 1979 classic. There has never been a world in for emily in which ripley didn't exist, which is pretty freaking cool. I was only three.
Speaker 2:So I think one of the reasons that this film has come up for us before is because Ripley is this badass female Cassandra in a way, who says what's going to happen. She warns everybody. Nobody believes her and they all die and she doesn't, and that's awesome. But she was originally written as a man, and so that's the reason that it's come up for us in deep thoughts in the past is because this is this example of this amazing female character who part of the reason, part of the Genesis of her amazingness, is that she was originally written as a man, and so the male writers writing it like weren't limiting her with their understanding of femaleness, with their understanding of femaleness. So that's the reason she's come up before, and we talked about that to a certain extent.
Speaker 2:Some of the new things from this conversation that came up that you brought to this is that this film has been seen by others as a rape allegory, because Kane, who is the first guy to get the face hugger, which I wanted to ask, but I guess it doesn't matter. Like, wasn't he wearing a suit or something?
Speaker 1:It burned through his helmet.
Speaker 2:Oh right, cause he's got the acid thing. Okay, so Kane was attacked and impregnated against his will and then the birth killed him. And the echoes, the resonances with pregnancy and childbirth, are clearly there and intentional, because we see at one point Dallas moving through the air ducting with sphincter-like hatches before and behind and the villainous robot refers to the xenomorph as Kane's son. I bet there's some stuff in the names too, by the way. Oh yeah, yeah. So this resonance there's some there there and also probably intentional. The thing that maybe wasn't intentional but still feels deeply resonant and relevant, that you brought out of your analysis here, is the ways in which the, the, the company, and Ash, the the robots kind of resonated at the same frequency as today's anti-abortion movement who, uh, speak for the unborn and who protect them at all costs and treat the people around them and the people carrying the unborn as completely expendable, and who also say at the end I don't know what your odds are, but you have my sympathy, and that's an Emily Guy-Burken original right there and that's an Emily Guy-Birkin original right there. So that was, I think, a new kind of allegory that you pulled out. That could not have been intentional? I don't think. In part, as you pointed out, because the anti-abortion movement in 1979 wasn't what it is today. That does not, in my opinion, take away the relevance and the resonance there and the things that we have to learn from it.
Speaker 2:Right, some of the other one. One other sort of storytelling note that you brought out is the way in which the aliens, acidic blood, was actually solving a reader's problem or a viewer's problem, the writer solving a writer's problem. That was also a viewer's problem Because that fact not only did it give us that amazing, iconic scene of the acidic blood burning through the floor, multiple floors of the ship, it also then created that extra layer of complication in fighting this thing that our heroes can't just fight it, they have to be careful fighting it because its blood will destroy the ship, which is really elegant and beautiful in terms of like storytelling, craft and and and thinking through the ways that that like solving that problem problem helps us to get a better story and a more interesting kind of product at the end. We also we named the fact that one of the things that's so amazing and powerful about Ripley as a female character is that she is not sexualized. She is a badass, fully formed human being who cries, who sings, who goes after the cat even though it's maybe not the best idea in terms of her survival and is partially nude or at least in a state of undress at one point, but not in a sexualized way, simply in a vulnerable way which I think in contemporary cinematic universe we've forgotten, are two different things. Yeah, so that's really cool to have that in Ripley.
Speaker 2:I also named that. Your point about sort of bodily autonomy and the critique of the theft of bodily autonomy that this film gives us again that there's a there there, because later filmmakers in the same franchise really show us that with the clones of Ripley who beg for death. Let me see, I feel like who at who beg for death? Let me see, I feel like so passes bechdel, I forgot about that. So cool passes bechdel, even with only two female characters, which is with only two, but it passed it.
Speaker 2:They had many conversations about things besides men. Ridley, scott, what the hell considered having the alien, just like lurk and I don't know, lust after ripley? Considered having her die and then having it mimic her voice? Considered having it lust at like, like, clearly lust after her in some sort of way, like ew, so glad that that didn't happen. Just have to say what? Am I forgetting him so?
Speaker 1:there's the several like symbols and connections. So the fact that the ship's computer is called mother yep um, the fact that ash is associated with like milk and white and and like purity, even though he is evil. One thing I didn't mention, but that I think is also interesting and important, is Ash uses a number of different tactics to get what he's hoping for. So when he is the one who works to decipher the message and Ripley says let me give it a shot, and she deciphers it enough to be like I think it's a warning, I'm going to go out and let them know. So Ash says like well, there's no point, they'll be back by the time you're suited up.
Speaker 1:I wanted to bring that up because to me it shows the spectrum of actions that can contribute to rape culture and like loss of bodily autonomy. So like the, you know, I'm going to go out and let them know. Like he's like ah, don't bother, is a very minor action on his part, in the same way that like oh, I'm sure it's fine, would be a minor action on on the part of someone who's like should I check on her? Or whatever, yeah. Or like someone making an untoward joke or something like that. Right. So that that I think is really interesting is that, like the actions step up over time and that's true of the actions that encourage rape culture the actions that deny bodily autonomy step up over time. So there's plausible deniability at one end of it, because if he started off with trying to kill Ripley, he wouldn't have gotten away with it, right?
Speaker 2:The other thing that I forgot that you brought in is the indictment of capitalism and the role that capitalism plays I. There's an indictment of capitalism full stop. There's also the capitalism layered into the denial of bodily autonomy in today's world. That that both are true, both and both are there in like baked into the this fictional future world. Yeah, I'm gonna go re-watch it. It's so good. I want to have a film fest. I want to do like all three yeah, I I've.
Speaker 1:I've only ever seen the first one and part of me kind of doesn't want to keep watching. Oh, really, you haven't seen the others. I haven't seen the others. Yeah, it was funny because my husband has seen aliens.
Speaker 2:Like how have you seen the sequel, but you hadn't seen the original uh, in number three, which I know why dad didn't want to watch it, but like there is something really really powerful about the scene when it's not our ripley, but we think it's our ripley actually encounters the cloned versions of her that are all, like you know, have like deformations and things and like, but they're kept alive for science, I guess, and it is deeply powerful and deeply disturbing, anyway.
Speaker 2:So I'm definitely going to read a lot and I don't remember what I'm bringing you next week. So let me take a quick look at my calendar. Right, I remember now, next week we are going to do something completely different. No, not Monty Python, mr Mom.
Speaker 1:Oh, oh. Do you know that I was terrified of washing machines for years because of that movie?
Speaker 2:No, I do remember, though, being like you're not going to burn Emily's blank. You're my pillow, are you?
Speaker 1:I kind of remember that, I kind of remember that.
Speaker 2:No, you can keep it. He should have kept it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right, sounds good. See you then.
Speaker 2:Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head?