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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about Big Trouble in Little China
We’re reasonable Guy(girl)s, but we’ve just experienced some very unreasonable things!
The 1986 film Big Trouble In Little China elicits some deep thoughts from Tracie in this week’s episode. The interwebs ask whether BTILC is woke or problematic, and we suggest the answer is ‘yes.' While the campy depictions of Chinese and Chinese-American culture are over-the-top and dripping with stereotypes, they do not make their subject the butt of the joke, and in fact seem to be winking at the audience. At the same time, Jack Burton (Kurt Russel) thinks he’s the hero, but he is very much Wang Chi’s (Dennis Dun) sidekick. In fact, Jack is so ineffective as a hero he spends most of the key fight scene unconscious and instead of a romantic and passionate kiss, he receives a face-wipe after defeating the big bad. It’s a delightful subversion of the heroic, manly white hero we’ve been conditioned to expect.
This is gonna take crackerjack timing, don’t wait to press play!
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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If I made a nightclub based on He-Man, it would look like this. It would look like this scene Like there's this big skull at the top but everything is lined in neon what others might deem stupid shit. You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. We're sisters, tracy and Emily, collectively known as the Guy Girls. Every week, we take turns re-watching, researching and reconsidering beloved media and sharing what we learn. Come overthink with us and if you get value from the show, please consider supporting us. You can become a patron on Patreon or send us a one-time tip through Ko-fi Both links are in the show notes and thanks tip through Ko-fi. Both links are in the show notes. And thanks.
Speaker 1:I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't? You know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1986 film Big Trouble in Little China with my sister, emily Guy-Burken, and with you, let's dive in my sister, emily Guy-Burken, and with you, let's dive in Em. I know you saw this because this is one of the ones that I think we watched, like with our cousin. But what do you remember about Big Trouble in Little China.
Speaker 2:Very little. I remember that it hinged on a woman with green eyes yep I remember that kurt russell was a uh truck driver. Yep, I remember, like crazy fight scenes, yep, and I think I think his name is james wong james hong so um.
Speaker 2:He is in everything, everywhere, all at once yeah, that's grandpa yeah so, and I like he's someone who is like just kind of a character actor that I, every time I see him, I'm like that guy. So that is about the extent of it. Oh, and Kim Cattrall, pre-sex and the City, uh-huh. So that's the extent of it. That's what I remember.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, that's kind of a lot, honestly, honestly. So tell me, why are we talking about it today? Yeah, so we're talking about this because of Alison, hi, alison. Alison is one of my best friends and, uh, a listener and a patron, and this is one of her favorite movies, and so it got on the list as a result of her being like you guys should do Make Trouble in Little China, and it is one that I definitely remember watching at Grandma's house with Chris. And so here we are, you're welcome.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot to talk about in this film this is a John Carpenter film about in this film, this, uh, so this is a john carpenter film and, um, it's, it's the camp is like dialed up to 11 and it's really interesting like watching it. I think there's a lot of like, like talk on the interwebs about this film, which was not very successful in the box office but has become sort of a cult classic, uh, and it like a lot of people are like woke or problematic, like as if those are the only two choices, like that's kind of the conversation that happens about this film, and, um, I think the answer is neither. Well, it is problematic, but not, I think in the ways that like not quite in the ways that I think people like at first glance claim that it is, uh, from so many you know, like white guys surrounded by Asian dudes kind of a film, right, like really lampoons, that it also like dials up the Orientalism and exoticization of Chinese culture to such a degree that it is camp and therefore is also making fun of Orientalism and, uh, you know, the exoticization of Chinese culture. And ultimately, the point that I want to make is that, like Russell's character Jack Burton is his name thinks that he is the hero of this story, but he's actually the sidekick, and the movie makes that plain over and over and over again that Jack Burton is actually the sidekick to Dennis Dunn's Wenqi. So that's kind of like where I'm going to land.
Speaker 1:There are a couple of other things to talk about which I think is really significant in 1986 and why I say this film is maybe. Maybe, instead of saying neither, I should say it's both woke and problematic. So let me do my best. Synopsis. I have Wikipedia because this film is insane. I mean, I absolutely.
Speaker 1:Remember thinking that as a kid, like as a kid, I remember thinking it as a kid, like as a kid, I remember thinking it was insane I re-watched, so I watched it and my spouse watched it with me and, like, at a certain point I like paused it and I was like we're only 25 minutes in so much happened, gosh yeah, so I think if I actually gave the full play-by-play, this would be like a two-hour episode.
Speaker 1:So I will not do that, um, but I'm actually going to. I have the wikipedia synopsis up on my screen and I'll I'll do. I'll maybe give a little bit of color commentary on that, but I'm trying to stick to it, just so that we can wrap this up in a reasonable amount of time. So we open um, there's like a frame story where a sort of skeptical white police officer, maybe, but like in plain clothes, is interviewing, um, a man named egg shen who is played by victor wong, who's also like a fairly well-known chinese character actor. So, um, this, this white detective is interviewing egg shen and is saying, like, what, what, what's your version of the story? And Egg Shen says do you mean? What's the truth? And like, and what does Jack Burton have to do with it? And Egg Shen's like you need to leave him alone. He's a good guy, he showed a lot of courage, he did his best for us. And then the detective is, like, do you really believe in this magic and stuff? And Egg Shen's like I mean, of course, because it's real. And then he like does a thing with his hands where like little lightning bolts go between his hands to like prove that sorcery is real. Oh, and they mentioned like a whole city block being engulfed in green flame and that Jack had something to do with it. So that's sort of the frame, like the setup.
Speaker 1:Then we actually meet Jack Burton. He's in his truck, it's at night, he's wearing sunglasses and talking into the CB radio like just like I don't know, like John waning it about himself. It's really obnoxious. But then he ends up at um. He ends up in Chinatown. He's delivering that. His truck is called the pork chop express, so he's like delivering pigs, I guess I don't know Um, but he an 18 wheeler. He's delivering uh into Chinatown. It's raining, he's.
Speaker 1:He ends up playing some sort of gambling game that looks vaguely like dominoes, but I didn't understand. It was not a game that I was familiar with, like so anyway. But he's playing a domino, some sort of like dominoes, like gambling game with a bunch he's like the only white dude a bunch of chinese uh folks, uh sitting around the table playing um and he wins, and wang chi played by denn Dunn um as like kind of out, like put out by the fact that Jack has one um, and says double or nothing, uh, for, like the. The bet is that Wang can, uh, slice a glass bottle in half with a machete. Or slice it with a machete, um, like on the table, or slice it with a machete, um, like on the table. And um, they do this specifically to establish that Jack has great reflexes, because Wang does it and his mind and body, uh, or spirit and body, are not aligned, and so he doesn't actually slice the bottle, it like it doesn't crack either, it just like slides across the table really, really quickly and Jack catches it.
Speaker 1:So now we've established Jack has great reflexes. That's an important point. Okay, so Wang can't pay up right now. He needs to go to the airport to pick up his fiance. He's been saving up to bring her over from, they say, peking, and Jack's like I'll take you, because he wants to get paid. So they get to the airport, they're waiting for the fiance, whose name is Mao Yin.
Speaker 2:So in the semi he takes him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it doesn't have a trailer. Oh, okay, just the cab, the cab, okay yeah, okay yeah. So they're at the airport, they're waiting for Mao Yin and they see a white woman, kim Cattrall, whose name is Gracie Law. And Jack sees her and instantly is like who is that? And of course Wang knows her. He says she's trouble, stay away from her.
Speaker 2:She's a lawyer and her name is Gracie Law. Gracie Law.
Speaker 1:Okay, so there's a group of like five guys who are dressed really tough and when I say tough I mean like the Sharks and the Jets, tough, but like Chinese guys, but like dress like the sharks and the jets from um West side story, like tough and like mean mugging, you know. Anyway, gracie says she names what a gang, that they are from Chinatown and they're bad news, and I don't remember the name of the gang, but um, so they're. They're actually Gracie's there to meet a young Chinese woman named Tara, and the gang is there to like kidnap her or something. So Gracie manages to save Tara, but then Mal Yen gets abducted, abducted, the fiance. So, uh, wang and Jack are like going after the gang who have Mao Yin. Um, they're in the parking garage, like whatever the guys almost the bad guys almost run them down in this like sports car that they're driving Like cause they are standing like in the roadway to try and stop them and they just they don't even slow down. So Jack does end up sort of pulling Wang out of the way. Um, so they go back to Wang's restaurant where he works with his uncle and they're talking about the fact that these guys have Mao Yin and Wang convinces Jack to like help him, try and get her back to.
Speaker 1:So they go into, they're driving through Chinatown and they're being chased and like Wang's like turn right now. It's like very exciting. And they end up in this back alley and then they see like a funeral and it's these guys and they're all wearing like the same kind of clothes. And Wang's like no, these are this guy. And he names another gang and he's like they're the good guys, it's a funeral, this guy died and so they're just sitting there in this like cab of this semi like watching this funeral with like drums and like banners and stuff. The funeral's like right coming right down the middle of the alley. So they're just like they can't go anywhere. They're just watching this happen.
Speaker 1:Then Jack notices in the rear view, in the side mirrors, like mean looking dudes in like black and red I don't even know what to call them Like uniforms is the word that's coming to mind Like karate uniforms kind of a thing, like I don't know what they actually are. And Jack's like Wang who are these guys? And it's like some other gang and they're not good guys and like this huge fight. And then a third gang shows up, this huge fight with like, lots of guns and like. And here's the start of jack being um kind of undercut as the hero. He pulls this big knife out of his boot and he's like holding it, like tough guy right, and then these guys, they're like doing kung fu and then they pull out guns, and there's guns everywhere and he's sitting.
Speaker 2:He's sitting there in his truck holding this knife right, which is a literal knife to a gunfight to a gunfight.
Speaker 1:And then these dudes show up wearing these giant, the three dudes, wearing these giant baskets as hats that they come out of the sky. I remember the hats. I remember that, yes, like chin straps, yeah, and they start like shooting lightning bolts out of their hands and Jack is like what is happening? And Wang's like drive, just drive, drive.
Speaker 1:And then that's when the guy that you remember, lopan, james Hong's character, like stands in front of the truck and Wang's like just drive, just drive. And like Jack drives through him, he like kind of goes under, but it's like not whatever, and like jack freaks the heck out, like what just happened? Who is that guy? So they, they abandon the truck, they go back to the restaurant. Next thing we see jack is on the phone with his insurance company trying to like report the truck as destroyed, lost, whatever, uh, and it's not going very well. Meanwhile we're getting a lot of exposition about who these guys are and the James Hong's character, lopan, cleverly disguised as David Lopan, is, like you know, businessman facade. He is a ghost, effectively's like a thousand years old, he's been cursed, so he doesn't have flesh, uh, and okay, okay, I don't, I don't know.
Speaker 2:However, that works however, that works.
Speaker 1:So we meet a couple other folks who, like no Wang, who are uh, you know, work in the restaurant or are relatives or whatever. Egg Shen shows up. He's the guy from the very beginning. He drives a bus for tourists, called like the Egg Fu Young Tourist, something or other, and he's like reading oracles and he's like it's time we can actually take Lopan down now. It's time we can actually take Lopan down now. So Gracie comes, she shows up and she's like I know where Mao Yin is and I can't go because they know who I am, so I can't go. So we need somebody who they've never met.
Speaker 1:So Kurt Russell's Jack is going to go to try and rescue Mao Yin, to try and rescue Mao Yin. Mao Yin is special because she has green eyes. So they go to this whorehouse, basically, um, and we see Kurt Russell in this like Clark Kent kind of a disguise, like with glasses and his hair all slicked down and like just in from Iowa city, whatever, I don't even remember, but it's so and he goes into this place and he ends up in a back room with a girl and he's kind of chatting with her and like trying to subtly figure out where this where Mao Yin might be. He's not being as subtle as he thinks. We see the madam kind of go to check on Malian, who is like in this secret room and like tied to a bed. It's kind of gross. Then the um lightning bolt dudes with the basket hats show up, destroy the whole building in green flame, which we heard from the very beginning frame story, um, and take Malian uh up and out and take Maoyan up and out. So okay, wang is still, he's going to save Maoyan, he's going to save her. He'll go by himself if he has to. He can't not.
Speaker 1:And so Jack goes with him and they go to infiltrate Lopin's palace. I don't know what to call it. It's like a front, because he's meant to be like a businessman. David Lopin is a businessman in San Francisco. It's like the headquarters, so it's like a, like an office building, but also where he lives, but also like a palace, it's anyway Um. And so they go in, like claiming to be like workers for the telephone company, but I like sort of like breeze through and it's too easy. And it is too easy Like Lopin knows. They're there and it's like a trap, um, and we meet, we, they go down and down and there are all these like Warren's underneath Chinatown and there's like just craziness, like magic and monsters and insanity.
Speaker 1:We meet David Lopin. So he, when he has flesh and I don't understand the magic of this, so don't ask, cause I don't get it when he has flesh he's this ancient man in a wheelchair, like a motorized wheelchair, with like wispy, like he's meant to be, like Fu Manchu, like with this, like wispy facial hair and head hair and all these liver spots. He looks to be 120 years old. He knows who they are and he calls them by name and we get a little bit more exposition.
Speaker 1:Lo Pan has been cursed a thousand years ago. In order to break the curse, he needs to marry a green-eyed woman and then he needs to kill her. So the marriage is for the God who cursed him and the death or the sacrifice of the wife is for the emperor, or vice versa. I might have it backward. So hijinks ensue. Wang is a master fighter, jack is not. Like jack manages, they're in um, they get. They get like bound into wheelchairs. Wang and Jack do, and Jack ends up like rolling backward down this really steep slope in the wheelchair and inadvertently knocking two bad guys down just because he's like falling and then like almost falls in a pit and like that we do see his strength, like he saves himself.
Speaker 1:Um, anyway, they managed to escape and get back to the restaurant and now they know what's happening with the marriage and stuff and it turns out like Egg Shen is also like a sorcerer and like his mission is to fight Lopan so cool.
Speaker 1:So he gathers a small gang or calls them, I'm not sure it convenes them and wang and jack and egg lead this small band of guys to go rescue mal yin and kill lopin and instead of going in the front door as they did last time, egg leads them via the warrens of like caves and shit underneath of chinatown, like to the palace, slash mansion, slash business hq. So that's how they get in this time again, again, lots of magic. They drink a potion that almost seems to be liquid luck from Harry Potter. They all just feel really good and whatever. And they end up in uh, there's like a dungeon jail, like with cells, and there's a bunch of women in um cells down there, including gracie and grace's friend, margo, played by kate burton, who is a journalist who gracie brought in to try and like expose lopin. I'm not sure gracie realized he was uh otherworldly. I think she just thought he was like a, you know well, he human trafficking or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean just considering like she knew where malian was. Yeah, no, I mean exactly in the world. That's not a john carpenter movie. That makes sense. It's an understandable thing to do exactly so mar.
Speaker 1:So Margo is. So Margo and Gracie have both been taken cap, Like it. It made sense that how they got in there, but they've both been taken captive. They actually like tried to get in again through the front door, but they've been taken captive there and in there. So they managed to release all the women and like Jack is like leading them out and he's like, okay, let's go. And he gets to this door and he opens the door and there's like a whole gang of bad guys on the other side. So again undercutting his efficacy as a hero. So he tells them to all run and hide because the bad guys have only seen him. And then but Wang stays behind and fights with him, but like fights alongside him and they fight the guys and like again, like jack ends up the gun he has like jams and then like he pulls his knife out of his boot and it like goes skittering and so he goes after it and by the time he comes back like jumps out from behind, like a thing like ha, I'm ready. Like wang has completely, you know, uh, disabled all of the bad guys. So like again, you know, undercuts the sort of heroics of of our hero, Okay.
Speaker 1:So they're on their way out, they're like escaping and they actually. Jack says I'm going to take up the lead, you take up the rear. Gracie, they don't have Malian. She was in another part of the because she's going to marry. He needs her to. Lopin needs her to marry him. So he's got her in this weird trance where she's like levitating and like trance-like and whatever. So we've, we've seen him kind of talk to her, uh, in her unconscious state, in his fleshless state, where he is younger, uh and can't actually touch her. So she's not with them. But they escape, except everybody gets out, except Gracie who gets grabbed by this like Chewbacca looking thing, but like much, much scarier. So they're in Egg's bus and they escape and they and then they realize Gracie's not with them and Malian's not there either. So they have to go back again to try and stop the wedding.
Speaker 1:I'm probably messing this up y'all, but it doesn't matter, it really doesn't. I don't think it matters. It honestly doesn't matter. I think it might be now that they actually take the liquid luck. I no-transcript, but everything is lined in neon. And then there's this like escalator that comes down from the mouth of the skull. So Lopin like glides down from the mouth of the skull, from like the mezzanine, and everything's lined in neon.
Speaker 2:This is where I want to spend my New Year's Sounds amazing.
Speaker 1:We learn that Lopin has decided to marry both of the women because Gracie also has green eyes. So he's going to marry both of them. He's going to keep Mao Yin as his wife and kill Gracie so that he can have his cake and eat it too. So, um, both of the women are in this sort of again trance-like state Now. They're all dressed up in like very fancy Chinese clothes, with makeup and headdresses and everything, and their eyes are rolled back in their head. So I guess the green eyes don't matter for the actual ceremony because they just, they're just white.
Speaker 1:So the ceremony, so, so, so Jack and egg and Wang and the dudes are all like watching this from the floor, like presumably um, unobserved by low pan and and his guys and Wang's like we got to stop it. And Egg says no, we have to let the ceremony happen, because we can't kill Lopan until he's married, but then he becomes flesh and we can kill him. So we watch the wedding, which is so weird. Lopan says bring me the needle of love, and it's just like really long, like, like, like, imagine, like knitting needle, like silver knitting needle, which he then like presses into um malian's wrist and uh, as as it's, and then he like, just like a little bit, but then he like reaches into his own like you know big oversized sleeve and and pulls it out and he has blood on his fingers. So he's really excited about that, like it's working, it's working, so, it's working, so, but apparently he needs to like push this needle of love into both of her wrists or something I don't, I don't know, I don't know. I also don't know how he's holding the needle of love, because we've established that he can't actually touch things before. Like he walks through walls and like his hands pass through Maoyin. So I don't know, I don't know, I believe. So the guys come in and they decide okay, now it's time. Like the egg sees that or no, sorry, they actually are seen by it doesn't matter a magical creature. So they've been seen, they've been spotted, and so the fight ensues Again. Our savior hero like knocks himself out. He shoots into the air like a cool, you know hero which dislodges a big chunk of like concrete or plaster or whatever that falls out, hits him right in the head and knocks him out. So he is unconscious through most of the fight, while these dudes are like going at it in this like big choreographed Kung Fu like lots and lots of combatants. It's like awesome. And he's like knocked out on the floor.
Speaker 1:Gracie wakes up from her trance and sort of like, ends up like kind of falling off the platform at the top where the skull is. And and then Jack wakes up, he goes looking for her. He finds her and they're like kind of like escaping and they end up in this like I don't know elevator, and there's like this sexual tension between him, between them, which, by the way, earlier he made passes at her and she was like uh, no. But now in this like shared danger, like she's kind of feeling it. They end up like she actually is like I can't believe this is real, like that's what she says, like I can't believe this is real about they're smooching. She's got all of this makeup on because of the wedding thing. So he ends up with red, red lipstick. I remember that, I remember that.
Speaker 1:So when they actually confront lopin, he's got this like red, red lipstick on and so he has that knife that we've seen before. Um and uh, he's like he's that's his, his, his weapon, and lopin, like magically, sort of claims it, like pulls it to himself and he's like he's that's his, his, his weapon, and lopin like magically sort of claims it like, pulls it to himself and he's like nice knife, goodbye, mr burton. And he throws it at him. But we've seen jack has great reflexes, he catches it and throws it back immediately and it lands like right in um lopin's skull, like, between you know, forehead. So jack actually does in fact kill Lopin. Hooray, he's reunited with Gracie, like she's been sort of like hiding or shielding herself, like not in a cowardly way, um in a smart way. She comes back and like the first thing she does is like wipe the lipstick off of his mouth, which feels significant.
Speaker 1:Um, so the, the, the dudes in in the basket hats are like really, uh, upset by their master's death. So the one dude who we we've seen, you know, fighting before, like he starts to like we've seen him kind of like bulk up out of sheer force of will, almost like the incredible hulk. This time it kind of gets out of control and he like just starts expanding and just gets fatter and fatter and fatter, with like steam coming out of his nostrils until he literally explodes. They're running, they like find their people, they all get out. It's amazing, they made it out. So hooray, and they killed Lopan and the other guys are dead and it's awesome.
Speaker 1:So we're back at the restaurant and we see, like Margo and one of the guys have coupled up and like Wang and Mao Yin are like coupled up and smoochy, smoochy, and Gracie's back in her own clothes with her normal makeup on and, um, jack is like I guess it's time for me to hit the road, like it's like a total John Wayne kind of an impersonation, and she's Gracie's like I don't remember exactly how it goes, but she says something like is it maybe you could buy a new truck that has room for two? And he's like no, I don't think so. And she's like okay, and then he's like leaving and Margo's like you aren't even gonna give her a kiss or goodbye, and he looks at her and he goes nope, and he leaves. And then we get.
Speaker 1:Now we're back from the beginning, where he's on the cb in the dark, in the rain, wearing sunglasses, talking about how I don't even remember there was a phrase that probably is important where he's talking about like you know what, what Jack says, what old Jack says, and I don't remember what Jack says, but he's like being like John Wayne on the CB and we like zoom out and the scary Chewbacca climbs up from sort of the undercarriage of the semi. Oh, he found the semi it was in. It was parked in David Lopan. That's part of how they escaped. It's like they all climb into the, into the truck and they and he just busts through the the wall. So it's more there's.
Speaker 1:I I'm sure I got it all out of order, but, like y'all, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Like it's fighting and it's magic and kurt russell's jack looks ridiculous. That's pretty much how it goes, so I'll just get this out of the way. It actually does pass bechtel, because margo and, uh, gracie talk about things besides men. That it's not particularly feminist. As I said before I started the synopsis, I think like the real crux of like the question with 2024 eyes that that commentators seem to have is like is it woke or is it problematic? And so, straight watching it, I'm like, as I was watching it, I was like, straight watching it, I'm like, as I was watching it, I was like, I mean, there's a lot of Chinese actors in here, but is any of this at all Like even a seed of truth of Chinese culture? Like it just feels so white people vision of Chinese culture and so I think that's why folks are like problematic right, like it wouldn't be me today, because it is not the way that we do things today, for good reason.
Speaker 1:At the same time, as far as I can tell, with one exception. Same time, as far as I can tell, with one exception chinese americans really loved this movie when it came out I don't mean one, one person, I mean like one group, one group um so contemporaneously, like it was. It was fun and it was funny and the, as I say, wang is the hero. He is, no question, the guy who actually saves the girl, gets the girl, wins the fights.
Speaker 2:He is not a sidekick.
Speaker 1:And I think that was fairly rare, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and at the same time, like poking fun at Kurt Russell, who, who was, I feel, like a reasonably big name in the 80s, like it's hard to I I don't really know when he was like snake plissken and and like you know other things where he was. Kurt russell, capital k, capital r yeah I don't know if he was.
Speaker 1:I don't know if he was yet in 86, but he was certainly on his way yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it would be kind of like I don't know if, like keanu reeves, had a similar kind of role yeah or or um you know, uh bruce willis said in his, in his prime it like one commentator sort of said he's like han, solo except ineffective yeah, yeah, so he thinks he's Han Solo exactly he thinks he's Han Solo yeah, yeah and but the movie doesn't.
Speaker 1:The movie does not think he's Han Solo, and I mean it. The movie likes him, like we are meant to feel affectionately toward him have you seen um Mitchell's versus the machines? I have uh-huh.
Speaker 2:so you remember the dog, manchi, who can't see, yeah and like and the and. So when they the, at the very end the dog is the one who is able. I have Right, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the fact that the camp was dialed up to 11-2, it's kind of like the Hebrew hammer or something, right, like a lot of Jews like that stuff. It's like that stuff yeah, like really funny. Yeah, so it doesn't feel like a, it doesn't feel like like the Hebrew hammer, doesn't feel like Jews are the butt of the joke.
Speaker 2:Yes, because we're in on it, yeah, and.
Speaker 1:I think for most Chinese Americans, as far as I can tell again, not Chinese American, just in case that wasn't clear to any listeners. I am not Chinese American, just in case that wasn't clear to any listeners. I am not, but from what I'm seeing from sort of contemporaneous and retrospective views like that was the way it was received.
Speaker 2:So this gets to something that I have been thinking about quite a bit. So when I was teaching high school, I taught the Odyssey every year and I showed oh Brother when Art Thou. I taught the Odyssey every year and I showed oh Brother when Art Thou and I, my first year of teaching, I ended up showing it on a day that I had a sub show it to me and I came back the next day and the kids were like why'd you show us that racist movie? And I was like I'm sorry, what now? And they're like well, there's the KKK in it. And they were going to, you know, they were going to lynch you know this black guy. And and I realized now these are 14 year olds and this is also it's nearly 20 years ago, this was 2006 or so, and so like I think that we talk about things differently with with kids now than than we did then and particularly in that, than we did then and particularly in that where I was teaching, but so the kids were not able to distinguish between a portrayal of racism and a movie being racist, and so and I've realized that that is it's not confined to 14 year olds. You know, now with the 14 year olds I was like, oh, oh, I see what's going on here. Ok, we're going to talk about this. But I also see it from adults sometimes where, like this is racist, and then it's nuanced like that.
Speaker 2:That issue is nuanced by the fact that there are some portrayals of racism where and I'm thinking specifically of the show family guy I actually really liked family guy when it was first out, and then there was a point where I was like I can't do this anymore about the show and one of the things was seth seth mcfarland, who the creator of the show uh and writer uh, was talking about how his character, p Peter Griffith, is racist and sexist and all of that.
Speaker 2:And he said, yes, but we put put those horrible things in his mouth, cause look at the source, he's awful.
Speaker 2:And it was very clear to me that McFarlane was having his cake and eating it too, because he was like yes, but you make it funny where he doesn't feel like the butt of the joke for having that racist opinion and we're supposed to extrapolate that he's wrong and like sometimes you show that he's wrong, sometimes you have him take a pratfall for being so awful, but not always, and so so like this is like I feel like this sits very much in the center of that, like recognizing that, like we need to talk about the fact that you can show awful things, even in a comedic way, without condoning the awful things, or even by, like making it clear, so like, because that was the thing I told the kids with a brother where art that was like I get what you're saying and like I should have talked about it before you know, so you knew that that was coming, um, but recognize that the protagonists are not doing that.
Speaker 2:They see that it's wrong, they see that it's awful and they do what they can to save and I've forgotten the character's name but save, save the, the, the man who's going to be lynched. And we see that the, the KKK members, get their comeuppance in a funny way. So, like, take that as like they're the butt of the joke. The racism is the butt of the joke, as compared to Peter Griffin saying something horribly sexist or horribly racist, and it just that being the joke, it just sits there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the other layer is parody, right like lopin is very much, very clearly sort of the fu manchu character who had been like what's the word I'm looking for? Like, like this, this is a caricature, it's a, it's a, it's a parody of a lot of the sort of Orientalist movies that would put the John Wayne-like character as the savior, as the hero against the sort of exotic and mysterious Chinese magic James Bond film you Only Live Twice, where Sean Connery is in yellowface and is able to infiltrate a Japanese big, bad volcano lair.
Speaker 1:I don't remember exactly I haven't seen that one, but yeah, so I think that that's also a piece of it that isn't in the examples that you gave but also is added to. So there's a little bit of like winking at the audience, that like airplane where the audience comes in with some things that then are being lampooned, that we brought in with us, which now in 2024 is less obvious, but in 86 would have been very obvious yes, you know the other aspect of it.
Speaker 2:I think that is interesting because john carpenter did. He did he write the film, or I mean um.
Speaker 1:It was directed by him. I don't think he wrote so the screen. It was written by Gary Goldman and David Weinstein, adapted by WD Richter um and and directed by Carpenter carpenter.
Speaker 2:Okay. So, um, a couple of nice jewish boys wrote it, yep, um, which is another that that honestly puts another spin on it for for me, in that two jewish men are used to seeing white culture completely misunderstand their own culture and exoticize it, and so there's, there's, there's an aspect of that. So what I the reason I brought that up is there is this sense of and specifically I'm thinking of Tina Fey, where there is for lack of a better word a woke white creator who makes jokes poking fun of racism or poking fun of whatever system that they have privilege from rock and the star, and she has a lot of jokes in there about race, about, you know, specifically, the interaction between white folks and black folks, and she felt very comfortable writing those in a way that, in looking back, I'm a little uncomfortable with, because she was a white woman, is a white woman, and she didn't necessarily have a black co-author. So basically, what I'm saying is you sometimes get creators who are like the well-meaning white people, who are like I see how stupid this is.
Speaker 2:I'm going to make a parody of it, I'm in on it and I don't think that there's there's necessarily anything on it and I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with that. I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing. I think where, like Tina Fey, makes me a little uncomfortable in retrospect, at the time I didn't see any problem with it. I do want to make that clear. But where that kind of gets us into trouble is when you do that without necessarily input from people from the marginalized community who you're trying to wink with, right, you know, yep, and so now again, I am not in any way going to claim that being Jewish is the same as being Chinese in terms of exoticism of one's culture, but I feel like I am a little bit relieved that it was two nice Jewish boys and not someone named Ed Whitbread.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess I don't know I mean. So I am comforted by the number of Chinese actors. Absolutely, I am comforted by the number of Chinese actors who are, who have great roles, like really great roles. Yeah, I do wish there were a name with you know, some, a name on the writing credits who share that identity. That would be more comforting and I know this.
Speaker 2:This has more to do with the lack of roles for chinese actors, but this, when you think about it, you remember it as oh, Kurt Russell versus you know magic and so, and in fact there's a there's a romance novel by Jennifer Kruse called Bet Me, where there's a point where the character is looking at the newspaper and there's a revival and it's like you're in big trouble in Little China. She's like oh, Kurt Russell fights the bad guys. We can go see that. I mean, that is, it's Hollywood. Kurt Russell is a Hollywood name.
Speaker 2:Kim Cattrall came to be a very big name. Right, I know, Dennis Dunn did not, Did not. Now, James Hong Did I did. He was the bad guy, but he was the bad guy and he also, like he, I think I mean he was in his fifties at the time Sounds right Like he's not a young man and he had a long career even before this, if I recall. So, like some of it is like just, dude is, he's a working actor and persistent and you know, and he's very good. He's a very good actor um, I wonder.
Speaker 1:I saw in my research which was not extensive, folks, I saw a rumor at least that Jackie Chan was actually originally envisioned for the Wang character and, for whatever reason, was unavailable, and so Dennis Dunn got it. And Dennis Dunn does a great job. I really don't want to sell him short. I believed him and I wonder if jackie chan had been in this movie, if we might not call it oh, jackie chan versus the bad guys or jackie chan and kurt russell versus the bad guys.
Speaker 1:I wonder if a, anyway, the like cultural kind of capital that Jackie Chan has would have carried it differently, I wonder. So I mean, I'm not even sure where I'm, where I'm going with that, but it's I, it's something to note. So I want to talk about one specific moment to in terms of the well, the overarching kind of subversion that Carpenter brings to this and Carpenter and Russell apparently have both spoken about this, like this was intentional of the kind of undercutting of the john wayne-esque jack um, jack russell, jack burton, the john wayne-esque jack burton um, at every turn, like just kind of making him ridiculous. Um, that's an overarching thing. Like you know, he's, he's knocked out, he's otherwise occupied, but the moment with the lipstick, that I think is really interesting to note.
Speaker 1:We expect him to get the girl. We have been taught that he's going to get the girl and to a certain extent the movie gives us that Because Gracie is not interested. In the beginning she tells him he smells bad. She's like you wish no way, don't touch me, don't get near me. She is unequivocal, she's not interested, and then she is.
Speaker 1:So to a certain extent we're given what we're supposed to expect kind of enemies to lovers kind of a thing. And then they have the smoochy smooch with the lipstick. But when they're reunited after he does the thing and kills the bad guy, he's infantilized because she wipes his mouth because he's got the lipstick on it, so she with her sleeve, because he's got the lipstick on it, so she with her sleeve. So like that particular subversion I find really really interesting when thinking about like this subversion of the hero's. It's not just his sort of efficacy as a hero, as like a weapon, if you will, it's also his efficacy as a lover, in so far as that moment, like after triumph, when we anticipate like a big, like smooch which is euphemism for more, he's infantilized and like that delights me.
Speaker 2:Well, especially because. So one of the things I'm thinking is so he's wearing accidentally wearing lipstick when he kills the big bad, yeah, and so there are ways one could look at that as like he's so macho, it doesn't even matter that he's wearing lipstick Right, and so having her wipe it off makes it clear no, that's not what was going on. Yeah, that's not what it was going on. Yeah, that's not what it was. That was like he's, he's a little boy with a dirty face. Yeah, um, and yeah, that's there's. There's something that is delightful, that's um, and like also the good sportness of kurt russell yeah, he was in on it.
Speaker 1:The actor was in on it, yeah, and he played it. He played it because I mean again and again like there's a slapstick element to it where he keeps like getting knocked down or falls over or whatever like. So there is a definite slapstick piece of his, of the subversion of his heroism. That's not the only way it's subverted, but that's a big piece of it and I think in order for it to believe, be believable, russell had to like really oh sure, yeah, I felt it, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So I have a question about, like, when he leaves um and uh, like gracie's, like you know, could you get a cab that's big enough for two? He's like nah, you said that. She said okay, is that?
Speaker 1:like paul's. Uh portrayal of it is just like all right that's fantastic. She's not there's no, there is no wailing and gnashing of teeth from her at all. I was like this is an option, all right. Yeah, fair enough, like margo's more upset about leaving than gracie is yeah, yeah like she kind of shrugs that.
Speaker 2:That is also fantastic. Yeah, because the the hero leaving the woman at the end is not on like not unusual right, um, but her not caring that's phenomenal yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, so the.
Speaker 1:So I guess I'll just just again like this is just for listeners to like sort of share. Like this. This movie is just bizarre and like delights in its own bizarreness, right, like the exposition is so obvious, right, and and also so silly. Like the, the it's magical, but like the torture rooms are described as like the hell of boiling oil and the hell where they whip your, rip your flesh off, and the hell where like and like, like these very descriptive of like, like that happens to you there and like those. These are different rooms in the, like warrens of the, you know underground, but but beneath chinatown and sort of you know how um, lopan like operates.
Speaker 1:And like the, the magical, mythical creatures, like there's one that's like a guardian, egg shen calls it, and it's this like floating head with lots of eyes, including one on its tongue. Like, like, imagine like a, like a fat gargoyle head that floats and has these like weird little tentacles, like shrek's, like, what are those things? That shrek has those little antennae but each of them has an eyeball. So what he sees, lopin sees. What this guardian sees, lopin sees, it's just, it's just ridiculous. Looking like like it reminds me of slimer from the ghostbusters two years prior.
Speaker 1:Like just floating around, um, it's just, and you know the, the guys with the baskets on their heads and the lightning bolts, and like it's just silly and and and it knows it's silly and it does it anyway.
Speaker 1:Like so it's like telling us a story, but it's not taking itself too seriously. And like the exposition, like I said, like he has to do x and such and because that's the way, and then if he gets married, and it has to appease the emperor and has to appease the guy, and like so we get these long like monologues from one of the other dudes who are explaining to Jack what's happening and thereby providing the exposition for us. And it's obvious what's happening, it's like you don't even care because it's just, and like other things that are exposition. But like almost startling. Like at one point somebody says, oh, you know so, and so has a crush on Margo. Almost startling, like at one point somebody says, oh, you know so, and so has a crush on margo. Like he's the maitre d at the, at the restaurant, who I can't remember his name at the moment, but he, like is a sidekick who like goes through all the stuff with them and like what, what?
Speaker 1:why are you telling us that he's got a crush on margo? It's like so that it makes sense at the end when they're coupled up. But like yeah it's just, I mean, it's really like look, look audience.
Speaker 2:So well, but like, but it knows it's doing that? That does it totally knows there's, uh, in the um, the, the very first star wars phantom menace. Um, there's a point where, like little baby Anakin, but what are midichlorians, what are midichlorians? And you're like, it's like there's flashing, this is exposition. And it's like George Lucas didn't know that that's what he was doing. Yeah, he didn't.
Speaker 1:Carpenter knew, carpenter knew. Lucas didn't know. Carpenter knew, yeah, carpenter knew yeah.
Speaker 2:Carpenter knew yeah, yeah, and was fine with it Totally, because it was just like that's not why you're here, that's what he was making.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, the fight scenes are like fun and well choreographed and like totally not believable, like these dudes are wearing freaking uniforms.
Speaker 2:Because we need to. Who's on which side? Who's the good guy, who's the bad guy? Yeah, well, and that's. Um, that's one of the things like well, it's, I mean, it's camp, but like this is.
Speaker 2:We're, you and I were texting back and forth a little bit about william goldman because, um, I found out that he, uh, was an overland graduate like which I didn't know, like you and so like we were talking about like it was kind of insane how his career was, how how it went, and you know, man, it was. It was good to be a rich white dude in the 50s yeah, totally. But I was saying one of the what he taught me was like know what you can do and know what you can't do, and like just gloss over the stuff you can't do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right around the stuff you can't do, yeah yeah, because that's, that's what he did with princess bride, like he's like I can't write a realistic love story, so I'm not gonna write a realistic love story, I'm gonna skip over it with this amazing framing device. That is hilarious, right, right. So, um, I'm thinking of that in that, like this movie put its emphasis on like the fun, the choreographed fight scenes, the like the things that Carpenter knew he could do, right, and was like we're just gonna just go ahead, have the exposition, here you go.
Speaker 2:It's on a spoon, whereas George Lucas Phantom Menace. The race scene is pure cinema gold. It's amazing. It is a very, very good scene. That got my heart beating faster when I saw it. The rest of the movie is trash Tell us how you really feel Em.
Speaker 2:It's not so much that the rest of the movie is trash, it's that I think George Lucas, he was so successful that he forgot that he's not good at some stuff. Yeah and so, and like it's always focus on like lean into what's not good at some stuff. Yeah and so, and like it's always focus on like lean into what you're good at, elide over the stuff you're not good at, bring in others to help you with the stuff you're not good at, and like, uh, you know, don't have an entire scene where someone asks what midichlorians are. Don't even do midichlorians Just have the force not be explained. It's better that way.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, that was a digression. Who me, I never have tangents, so let me see if I can reflect back some of the things that we talked about.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 1:Honestly, actually, even though we've been talking for an hour, it's not much like. When it really comes down to it, it's not that much. So big trouble in little china is this hilarious, over-the-top, campy film, which is like in many ways, a parody of sort of Orientalist um action movies right, kung Fu movies. It's a. It's a. It is a parody of sort of Kung Fu movies that have magic in them and it does not take itself seriously at all, which is part of its delight. And, and in so far as not taking itself seriously, like Jack Burton, kurt Russell's character takes himself very seriously, but the film does not take him seriously, the straight white cis dude hero that we have been kind of expected to identify with for forever, over and over and over again.
Speaker 1:Russell's jack burton is not that guy. Right, he knocks himself out during the pinnacle fight scene. He, he is like distracted and like jumps to the rescue after his, who he thinks of as the sidekick, but in fact is the hero. Wang has already disabled all of the bad guys he kills. He does in fact kill the big bad, but he does it wearing lipstick accidentally, which then his would-be girlfriend wipes off of his mouth with her sleeve afterward. So, like Jack is not the hero, he is in many ways ridiculed and is the butt of the joke over and, over and over again, which is kind of delightful, and so this film is, in that sense, woke. It also sees like crazy, stereotyped, like not based, I don't think, in any kind of actual cultural, cultural reality, like Chinese characters and caricatures, who nevertheless, like Chinese culture, does not feel like it is the butt of the joke and as far as I can tell and I'm willing, I'm completely willing to be corrected here, but as far as I can tell, was largely appreciated and embraced by Chinese Americans contemporaneously. They felt in on the joke, right, because, again, like Chinese actors were playing these parts that were awesome and fun and funny and really heroic. Like Wang actually fits the stereotype of the hero, right, he fights for what he believes in, he beats the bad guys through sheer force of will and skill because he is a kung fu master, apparently, he gets the, he saves the girl, he gets the girl. Like he, he ticks all the boxes. Wang ticks all the boxes for the hero of the story and that is refreshing to have that as the chinese american or chinese, uh, what chinese american uh character here, um, in terms of gender it does pass bechdel barely, still not a particularly feminist film.
Speaker 1:We do have gracie law, who's amazing. She really is a bad-ass and, um, and we do have this sort of subversion. We it gives and takes. On the one hand she relents and and like, despite all of the magic, the thing about which she says I can't believe this is real is kissing Kurt Russell, but at the same time, when he's like nah, she's like hi. So you know there's a give and take. There's a give and take there. Kim Cattrall really sells it. She's delightful. And even Margot, the kind of naive journalist who's like trying to get her big break, she's, um, I don't feel as though she is made fun of. She's not a fully fleshed out character, but neither does she feel like, um, overly sexualized or overly demeaned like she's.
Speaker 1:Like she's not fully fleshed out, but none of of these guys are right. They're all caricatures to a certain extent, and hers is not like an anti-feminist caricature.
Speaker 2:So there's that. The lawyer's name is Gracie Law.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So what am I forgetting that we talked about? We spent a lot of time talking about exposition and sort of not taking yourself too seriously. And you brought in Goldman and the ways in which he taught us to sort of like, do what you're good at and like, don't try to do the things you're not good at. Find a way to work to write around it. So in the Princess Bride that was like the frame story that says there's a romance but doesn't actually show the romance. And you pointed out that, like George Lucas forgot that and gave us like ponderous exposition with them. But what are midi-chlorians? And we also spent some time talking about sort of layers of nuance in terms of, like, portraying racism versus being racist. And so you brought in oh, brother, we're out. Art thou versus um the um, family guy, family guy thank you versus family guy.
Speaker 2:Uh, I also named the fact that there's a, an element of parody in this film that the audience would have brought some knowledge with them into the theater in 1986, which, to a certain extent, is missing in watching it in 2024 and that sort of affects the way we view this like woke or problematic question and the camp and the depiction of chinese culture do you know that, um, that gets to something that, uh, I feel like with with my students I was trying to teach them because we often, um do this context is so important in understanding like anything but piece of media, like a response to something, and so, and for a long time, and like we were kind of raised with this, there was this idea that decontextualizing things is how you get to be not racist, right, so, like by saying, like well, you couldn't do this about you know a different demographic.
Speaker 2:Like well, that's not about a different demographic. There's a reason we're doing it about this demographic, you know that sort of thing, demographic, you know that sort of thing. So, so that gets into it too is the context of what Kung Fu movies were that we have lost that context. So a you know, young Gen Z are watching this movie for the first time might be horrified in ways that their parents wouldn't have been when they saw it in the theater, because they just aren't aware of the movies that came before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just want to reiterate like this movie is so weird, but like really, really fun, really fun. And so I think, as with all of our films, all of our films, if we are willing to talk about it, it's absolutely worth a rewatch.
Speaker 2:So any final thoughts? Uh, so the reason I remembered the green eyes is because you and I both have green eyes. Yeah, that's stuck in my head. So I do not. We, neither of us, have the like emerald green eyes that are clearly contact lenses.
Speaker 1:In fact, in the credits I noticed there's like a contact lenses by Dr So-and-so yeah, yeah, no Much more olive green, anyway, yes, Okay.
Speaker 2:So next time? Yeah, what's next time? I am bringing you my deep thoughts on Alien.
Speaker 1:Oh, we have been talking about Alien for episodes after episode after episode.
Speaker 2:So excited about this.
Speaker 1:Cool beans. I can't wait, all right. Well, until then. Until then, do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy. But don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?