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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts About When Harry Met Sally
“I’ll have what she’s having.”
On this week’s episode of Deep Thoughts, the Guy sisters revisit the iconic 1989 rom/com When Harry Met Sally. Even though Meg Ryan’s Sally Albright offers a badass portrayal of a happy spinster who makes no apologies for wanting what she wants, a young Emily instead internalized the idea that being “high maintenance” was a sin. Though the story does offer some important pushback against the confidently wrong pronouncements made by Billy Crystal’s Harry Burns, Crystal’s performance is so funny and charming that it’s very easy to overlook his misogyny. On the bright side, Sally provides an excellent demonstration of just how easy it is to fake an orgasm.
Throw on those headphones…because when you realize you want to spend the next hour listening to a podcast episode, you want the next hour to start as soon as possible!
Mentioned in this episode:
https://youtu.be/TuNcyWIUEf4?si=bh_bMe8hlA5eDq26
https://farragomagazine.com/article/farrago/on-the-everlasting-charm-of-when-harry-met-sally/
https://jwa.org/blog/five-most-feminist-moments-from-when-harry-met-sally
https://www.womaninrevolt.com/second-thoughts-harry-from-when-harry-met-sally/
https://www.vulture.com/2012/10/when-harry-met-sally-is-bad-for-ladies.html
https://www.movienight.ink/p/when-harry-met-sally
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
Harry says, like all men are thinking that about cuddling after sex, and he is saying he is confidently wrong. And Sally reacts as if he's confidently wrong, but the movie doesn't necessarily show us that he's confidently wrong.
Speaker 2:What others might deem stupid shit. You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. We're sisters, tracy and Emily, collectively known as the Guy Girls. Every week, we take turns re-watching, researching and reconsidering beloved media and sharing what we learn. Come overthink with us and if you get value from the show, please consider supporting us. You can become a patron on Patreon or send us a one-time tip through Ko-fi. Both links are in the show notes and thanks, okay. We're good. It's you, oh God.
Speaker 3:I haven't watched anything. You're supposed to be telling me about Harry Met Sally. Okay, right, because I haven't watched anything. I'm not prepared. I am the non-presenting sister this week.
Speaker 1:I feel like this should be in our bloopers. I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1989 film when Harry Met Sally, with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you, let's dive in my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, and with you, let's dive in. So, tracy, I'm pretty sure you've seen this movie, but it's not one we watched together. This is not a shared movie, but tell me what you know or remember about when Harry Met Sally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have seen it. I have seen it. It's been a minute, um, but uh, like I mean they when I think, when I think about it. When harry met sally, two scenes come to mind the deli where she fakes an orgasm and the old lady goes, I'll have what she's having. And the scene when she's freaking out on the kitchen floor because, like, the ex got married but not to her, and she's like, and I'm going to be 40. And he's like in eight years, or something like that. So those are the. Those are the two scenes that come to mind immediately.
Speaker 2:But I have complicated feelings about this film. I haven't done like an analysis like we're about to do, but just in my mind I'm like like I loved them together, like I had the warm fuzzies that the director was going for for meg ryan. And who is it? Billy crystal. Yeah, I am, um, like I really got the warm fuzzies. It worked for me. But when I I'm like this is where we got the phrase high maintenance or where it became like like a thing that we were, you know, and like I don't know.
Speaker 2:Just I worry about what I internalized about romance as a result of this movie and movies like it as much, as I absolutely loved it while I was watching it. So that's kind of like what's in my brain space about when Harry met Sally, that and I actually have a tab open right now of an AO three story that is a fan fiction crossover retelling of good omens characters in the Harry met Sally film. Those are the things. So yes, listener, I am a big nerd, such a nerd. So why are we talking about this film today? Em?
Speaker 1:So I really loved this film. In my 20s specifically, I saw it for the first time, I think, as far as I can recall, when I was in high school. I remember watching it at a sleepover and not really having much of an opinion one way or the other at the time, and then saw it again, I think, in college, and I ended up buying, showing my age, the VHS tape of it in my first apartment. I didn't have cable so I had, you know, my VHS collection to watch. It is genuinely funny. I mean, it is a very, very funny movie and Meg Ryan and Billy Crystal have amazing chemistry as two actors, two comedians playing off of each other, and there is a lot to enjoy in this film in a lot of ways. But, like you, there's a lot that I internalized from this movie that I don't think either Nora Ephron, who wrote the screenplay, or Rob Reiner, who directed it and who were themselves screenplay, or Rob Reiner, who directed it and who were themselves like they. They made Sally to be a Nora Ephron stand-in and Harry to be a Rob Reiner stand-in, and though Nora and Rob were only ever friends like they were they, they never had any romantic entanglement and in fact they originally intended for the movie to end with them remaining just friends, and that was just not going to fly. They created something that I think went in a different direction than they intended.
Speaker 1:I think Also very 1980s belief system, heteronormativity and understanding about, like, what women are and what men are. So I wanted to kind of revisit it. What self-proclaimed feminists think about this film? Because I have seen both those who love it and they give some very compelling reasons for why it is a feminist film that is dated and then those who just excoriate it and say it is trash. And it's interesting because I think they're both right.
Speaker 2:Oh man, both and again.
Speaker 1:So let me just, you know, catch you up, since it's been a little while since you've watched it. I'm going to try to give a very basic summary of the plot, because it is, you know, it's a rom-com, so the plot is kind of the skeleton of, you know, like what you get in a rom-com, on which you base the individual characters, the chemistry and the humor. To start, the film has kind of this frame that's never explained of older couples, like in their 70s and 80s, telling the story of how they met and fell in love, and so it's a different couple each time and it happens like something like there's one at the very beginning of the film and then, like every 15 or 20 minutes in between scenes, there will be another couple. So there's that aspect of it. So we meet the first couple there. Then we are brought to University of Chicago in 1977.
Speaker 1:We meet Meg Ryan's Sally Albright, who is going to be driving to New York where she's relocating because they've just graduated with Harry Burns, who is the boyfriend of her friend, amanda Reese. So she and Harry have never met each other before. This is just something that doesn't happen anymore in the modern world where everyone's connected but where you're like oh, you're going to New York, my boyfriend's going to New York. Why don't you guys drive together that sort of thing? So it is. Sally describes it as an 18-hour drive. So they know that sort of thing. So, um, it is. Uh, sally describes it as an 18 hour drive. So they have a very long overnight drive to to get to know each other and, you know, go from strangers to. You know two people who spend all this time in the car together. Harry is obnoxious prick. He's a very, very funny obnoxious prick, which meant I didn't realize what an obnoxious prick you are.
Speaker 2:You are a sucker for somebody who can make you laugh.
Speaker 1:Someone who can make me laugh. I overlook so much.
Speaker 2:It's true, it's true, I really do.
Speaker 1:I've seen it happen, and to Sally's credit, and they're supposed to both be like 21, 22 years old at the time, because they just graduated college. Now, billy Crystal was 40 at the time and Meg Ryan was 27. Huh, so they. It's kind of impressive how they make Billy Crystal look like he's not 40. He doesn't look like he's 22. He's 40. Like he's got the kind of slenderness of a, of a very young man.
Speaker 1:And Meg Ryan, you, you absolutely believe that you like, you kind of want to like, sweetheart, are you late for class? So, to Sally's credit, she pushes back on his prickery. I think I just coined a word, I like it Consistently. And so they stop at a diner at one point and he makes a pass at her and she is horrified and pushes and is like you're dating my friend who he was professing to love as they left, and so, like, stop coming on to me. And at that point, and she says to him we are just going to be friends. And at that point he says you do realize that men and women can never be friends because the sex is always going to be in the way she's like what do you mean? He's like well, a man can't be friends with an attractive woman he finds attractive because he'll always want to have sex with her. And she's like okay, so a man can be friends with a woman he doesn't find attractive. He's like no, you pretty much want to nail them too. Again, so obnoxious. But his timing is just like. I don't want it to be funny, but it is so. And she said like she says okay, I guess we're not gonna be friends then, which is a shame because you're the only person I knew in New York. So 1977, that's the end that you see them both arrive in New York and say have a nice life.
Speaker 1:We get another older couple telling how they fell in love. And then it says five years later and you see Sally at an airport, like just passionately kissing a man, and Harry comes by, stops, sees them and looks and was like hey, and then like stops and waits. So the audience is thinking like, oh, he recognizes Sally and no, actually he recognizes the man and no, actually he recognizes the man she's kissing Joe. They lived in the same apartment or same apartment building for several years. And so they stop and make small talk and you can see Harry looking at Sally, trying to place her, not figuring it out, and then leaving, and Sally knows exactly who he is and she says oh, thank God he didn't recognize me, had the longest drive of my life with him. Then cut to the airplane. They're both on the same plane.
Speaker 1:He's sitting in the row directly behind her and he recognizes her when she makes the request for a drink, because one of the through lines is that Sally makes very specific requests for the things that she orders in restaurants, which is apparently based on Nora Ephron who, when someone pointed it out to her, said I just want it the way I want it. So it's that that jobs his memory. And he's like University of Chicago, right? He says yes, and he's like did we ever make it? You know, like you know, make it? And she's like no, um, and then the guy sitting next to sally asks hey, do you want to sit together? And she's like no, and billy crystal harry says yes, and so he sits next to her. Um, he's disgusting her again, um, but he mentions, he tells her like he's getting married, um, and she's like really, I, I'm, that's such progress for you. I really love seeing you embrace like joy and all of this.
Speaker 1:And then he ends up telling her that basically he's getting married so it doesn't have to be single anymore, that basically he's getting married so he doesn't have to be single anymore. Like, he does like say good things about his wife-to-be Helen, but he's like, and it was just, you know, I was so over the whole thing. And you know what whole thing. You know like, oh, you know dating. You know you go out for a safe lunch. You like each other enough to go to a dinner. You go out dancing, you do the white man's overbite, just again, like you're so obnoxious, it's so funny.
Speaker 1:And then you know, you go back to her place, you make love and as soon as you're done, you know what you're thinking how long do I have to lie here and hold her? Is 30 seconds enough? And Sally says that's what you're thinking. And he says, yeah, that's what all men think. And she's like that's horrible. He's like, well, how long do you like to be held? All night, right, yeah, somewhere between 30 seconds and all night is your problem? And she's like I don't have a problem. And he says, yes, you do so if you weren't funny.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's the end of like what we see on the plane and then we see her in wherever they ended up. They're not clear what airport they'd flown to. She's on one of those moving walkways just trying to read a newspaper. And he comes up to her again and like is chatting and saying you want to have dinner tonight? And she's like no, I'm with Joe, you're getting married. And he's like no, no, just his friends. And she reminds him that he said women, men can't be friends, um, and she ends up, um, I think it's at this point she's like you look like a normal person, but really you're the angel of death. And she finally is like goodbye, harry, and leaves and so that's the end of that. So we see then five years later again. So we get another, um, older couple.
Speaker 1:And then five years later again we see sally with her friends, alice, who is her one friend, who's married with kids or a kid, and marie, who is played by carrie fisher. And to the point where, when Carrie Fisher died, this is the movie I went to watch. Oh, interesting, because I adore her character. Even though there's the, her character is not someone I can relate to.
Speaker 1:In a lot of ways, carrie Fisher's Marie has been in a relationship and in love with a married man named Arthur for years at this point. And so the like you see her saying like um, yeah, I saw they just spent $1,600 on a new dining room table. I don't think he's ever going to leave her. And like Alice and Sally are like he's never going to leave her, like, no, like we know he's never going to leave her. And Marie consistently responds you're right, you're right, I know you're right. And that's when Sally shares that she and Joe have broken up, that it's okay.
Speaker 1:It happened on Monday, it's a few days later. She's had some time to deal with it and you know they've been growing apart for some time and it's okay. And so Marie's like all right, so you're ready to get out there. And brings out a Rolodex and starts like let me set you up with this guy, let me set you up with this guy. And Sally says no, I'm not, like I'm over, joe, but I'm in a mourning period, I'm not ready to date yet.
Speaker 1:And like, both Alice and Marie are like well, don't wait too long, because you know you remember so. And so, like um, he got divorced. Everyone said give him time, give him time. Six months later he was dead. And sally's like so you're saying I should marry someone quickly in case he's going to die. And alice says well, at least you could say you were married, jesus, I know. And uh. And marie says well, no, it's just you know. If, if you don't, don't strike while you, while the iron's hot or something along those lines someone else is going to marry your husband, you'll spend the rest of your life knowing that there's someone else married to your husband. Now, this is the aspect that feels like it's a time capsule.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because that conversation seemed reasonable in 1989 and it is so ugly yeah, it does not feel reasonable today yeah, um.
Speaker 1:But to be fair to nora efron and the film, sally is like what is wrong with my friends? Like she doesn't actually say that, but you can see from her face she's like criminy. What About all of it? So we cut to Harry with his friend Jess, who's played by Bruno Kirby, at a football game, and Harry's telling the story of how his wife has left him. And there's like some truly funny moments in this, because she says I don't think I want to be married anymore and he's like, well, maybe we can take some time to think about it. She's like, well, I have a friend who's going to South America and I can sublet their their apartment. I think I'm going to go do that.
Speaker 1:And like in the midst of her saying that, moving people, people show up. So like he's just she's just telling him this and and so, like she's, harry explains that like there's three big guys and one of them wearing a T-shirt says don't fuck with Mr Zero. And so he asks Helen, when did you call these people to move? And she said last week. And so Bruno Kirby, jess, asks so Mr Zero knew you were getting divorced before you do you did. Mr Zero knew. And then Harry says I haven't even gotten to the worst part. And Jess is like what's worse than Mr Zero knowing and it's all a lie she's having an affair and that's why she's leaving. He knows because he followed her. We then see Sally and Marie are at a bookstore and Marie notices Harry is there and is like kind of looking at Sally, oh, and thinks that he's checking her out.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And Marie's like oh, you're getting checked out by someone in personal growth. And Sally says, oh, I know him, You'd like him, he's married. And she's like how do you know he's married? Oh, burn, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:She's like how do you know he's married? Well, because last time I saw him he was about to get married. And she's like well, how long ago was that? It's like I don't know five or six years, so like we might not be married anymore. And he's like, oh, he never remembers me. Anyway, it's fine. And then he comes up and says Sally Albright. And she's like oh, hi, harry. And so she tries to introduce Marie and Marie is leaving because she is the world's best wing woman in some ways. So Sally tries to like basically brush him off. And but he starts by asking like how's Joe? And she says he's fine, I hear he's fine. And she's like, oh, did you break up? And she said yeah, and then she she asked like how about you? How's married life? He's like not so great. And he's like we're getting a divorce. And she's like, oh, and like you see, that's when the the like oh, this asshole again kind of comes down and she goes like I'm really sorry about that. They end up like going to get something to eat and bonding over like the fact that they both have this heartbreak.
Speaker 1:And we finally hear from Sally what happened. She had taken Alice's daughter out to go to the circus and they were playing I Spy and even though she and Joe had always said they didn't want to get married or have kids, while she's with Alice's little girl, the little girl sees a man and a woman with two little kids and the man has one of the kids up on his shoulders and the the little girl said I spy a family and and it's made um sally cry. And so she came home and said to joe, like we said that this is what we wanted, but actually this is what I want. And um, he said he didn't, and he left and she was like and I'm, I'm fine, you know, we didn't want the same thing, it's okay. So after that they're walking and he, harry, says like I really really appreciate talking to you and like you're so much more fun than you were in 1977. Like you know, you used to be really like. You used to be really tough, tough, but now you're much softer. And she's like you see, that kind of thing sounds like a compliment, but really it's an insult. And he's like all right, you're still as tough as nails. And she's.
Speaker 1:She says to him like you didn't like me because I wasn't interested in you. You made a pass at me and you had to make that a character flaw of mine instead of acknowledging that it might have something to do with you. And he said he basically says OK. And he's like what's the statute of limitations on apologies? And she said 10 years. And he's like all right, I can get it just under the wire. Like all right, I can get it just under the wire.
Speaker 1:He still doesn't say I'm sorry, though, and he asks hey, would you like to go get dinner with me sometime? He's like, oh, are we becoming friends? And he says, yeah, I think we are. It was like the first time in my life I have a woman friend who I don't want to have sex with, and she's like that's real growth, harry. So you see them becoming friends, and their friendship chemistry is pretty great because you see them doing things that are just fun, like going to museums. He helps her like bring home a Christmas tree at Christmas. You know they just they. They seem to have fun with each other, and then, eventually, they each start dating again.
Speaker 1:It starts with Sally goes out on a date and she encourages Harry to try the same. They both had a terrible time, and so the next day they're kind of talking about how bad their dates were. And Harry shares like that he had a panic attack in the middle of the date because the woman mentioned that she went to I don't remember University of Michigan and it reminded him of Helen. And she goes oh, did Helen go to University of Michigan? No, northwestern, but they're both Big Ten schools. So just letting you know just how neurotic he is, she says you know what? It's our first date out. It's gonna be a while before we really feel comfortable with someone, and maybe even longer before we're ready to go to bed with someone. And uh, harry says, oh, I went to bed with her. And sally's like you did. He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, because he's a hound.
Speaker 1:It becomes clear that he is, just, you know, having sex with all these women. And that gets to the, the senior member at the deli, where, uh, they are, are talking, and she's like so what do you do? How do you? You just get up and leave. He's like, yeah, I tell him, you know, I got a early meeting, early racquetball game. She's like you don't play racquetball. He's like, yeah, they don't know that, but they just cause they just met me. And uh, she says I'm really glad that we never got together, because I would have just been someone that you crept out of the house at three o'clock in the morning Cause you had to go clean your and irons and you don't even have a fireplace. And he says I think they, you know, like okay. And he says I think they, you know like okay, I'm not super proud of it, but you know like they have a good time.
Speaker 1:And she's like how do you know? And so they end up having a conversation where he's saying like what are you saying? They fake orgasm, get out of town, it doesn't happen. And she's like look, do the math. All women say that they have faked orgasm at least once. And all men think that it's never happened with them. You do the math? He's like well, it hasn't happened to me. Um, she's like you could tell the difference. Like yeah, I could tell the difference. And then she fakes an orgasm right there in the middle of cats is telly, um, they all have what she's having yes, and that is rob reiner's mother.
Speaker 1:No way, that's fantastic. So we see them at New Year's saying like and Harry has had a beard this entire time since since he and Helen divorced and he has shaved it at New Year's and that's kind of an indication that he's coming a little bit out of his depression. Shaved it at New Year's and that's kind of an indication that he's coming a little bit out of his depression. And they say they're there as friends. But they say like, if neither of us are with someone next New Year's, you got a date Soon after that they decide to set each other up with their best friends. So Harry is setting Sally up with Jess and Sally is setting Harry up with Marie. At the dinner, marie and Jess, like there's a quick interaction that immediately sparks fly and they each friend asks like the main, ask Harry and Sally like hey, are you OK with me calling the person who's supposed to be your date? Like if, because I won't, if you don't want me to, but I really feel a connection. And both Harry and Sally were like absolutely Absolutely, can you wait? Like a week. I just don't want Harry to feel rejected, I don't want Sally to feel rejected. And they're like absolutely Absolutely. And Jess says I'm tired of walking, I think I'll go with you, and there's a cab that pulls up immediately like taxi. All right, let's go. It's like less than 10 seconds. And so several months later it is because that's probably in January or so it's still cold out. Several months later it's warm out.
Speaker 1:Sally and Harry are shopping for a present for Jess and Marie, who are moving in together, and they run into Helen while singing to a story with the fringe on top, uh, to a karaoke machine and sharper image, which leads to the best line I wish I had more opportunity to use in my day-to-day life, because it freaks Harry out. He then kind of takes it out on Jess and Marie tells them you're moving in, everything's lovely, but put your names in your books right now before you forget which belongs to who, because this dish, this $8 dish, you're going to be fighting over in eight years. And then you'll be singing sorry with the fringe on top in front of ira, which is the man that helen was in front of ira anyway.
Speaker 1:Harry says some truly awful things to sally because, like nothing other, nothing other bothers her, nothing other backs up on her and, like you know she hasn't really gotten over Joe and she's like oh, so if I fuck somebody that'll show that I'm over Joe, you're gonna have to move back to New Jersey because you've run out of people to sleep with in New York and I haven't seen that. Make a hell of a faint memory. And he apologizes, and then the next scene that you see is um, it's a little bit later and sally has learned that joe is getting married to a younger woman and, uh, she freaks out, calls harry to come over and he's comforting her because and it's not that she wants joe back, it's that like what's wrong with her? Why is it that he, he wants to marry this like cute, cute little 22-year-old, but not me, that's the scene I remember yeah yeah, and it's like funny and devastating, like her sadness and the like, and I'm going to be 40.
Speaker 1:It's like when, like someday in eight years, so in in the process of comforting her, he kisses her, she kisses him back and they end up sleeping together. He freaks out and and leaves in the morning. He stays overnight but leaves in the morning and, uh, she, they both, you hear them both thinking like, uh, uh, they both think it's a mistake. He hopes she says it first, she hopes she gets to say it first. They go to dinner. She says it was a mistake and he like immediately was like I am so relieved. You feel the same way. It like way too quickly. And so she distances herself from him, and for very good reason, reason. So at jess and marie's wedding he approaches her and says like are you gonna be holding on to this forever? And you know, like it didn't have to mean something. It's like it's and she's like forever, it happened, like it just happened. He's like it was three weeks ago. And uh and uh he says you know how, like one year to a human is like seven years to a dog. And she's like are you, what are you saying? Are you saying I'm the dog, yes, and like so she ends up having having it out with him in the kitchen. Uh, during the wedding Cause he says, like I didn't come over there to make love to you. I like I came over there to comfort you and you looked up at me with these big, weepy eyes and you said, harry, hold me for a little bit longer. What was I supposed to do? She's like you, you did it because you pitied me. Fuck you. And she like slaps him and like thank you, good for you, sally.
Speaker 1:We then see several, several weeks of Harry trying to get back in touch with her. He keeps calling her, keeps calling her, and he's her and he's. You see him saying to Jess, I'm through, making a schmuck of myself, I'm not going to do it anymore. Then you see him with the karaoke machine calling her and singing call me. And she finally answers the phone and says like what do you want? He's like well, I just just wanted to talk to you. And she's like I'm on my way out. He's like well, wait, wait, wait. Are you going to the New Year's party? We always said if we weren't with anyone we'd go together. And she's like no, harry, I'm not your consolation prize, stop, and hangs up the phone.
Speaker 1:So on New Year's, she's at the party having a horrible time. He's in his apartment and decides to go out for a walk. He passes by some of the places that they had spent time together and it all of a sudden dawns on him like no, he's in love with her. He runs to the party and he says, like the best line which cause? She's just like no, like I know it's new years, I know you're lonely, but no, I'm not going to be your consolation prize. She doesn't say it again, but it's along those lines and he's like no, I'm not here because of that, I'm here because I love you and I like goes through all the things he loves.
Speaker 1:And he's like when you realize that you want to spend the rest of your life with someone, you want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible. And so she starts crying and she's like you know, you say things like that and make it impossible for me to hate you and I really hate you. And then they kiss and that's, that's the end, except for we now see them on the couch talking about their love story and telling about their, their wedding where there was this coconut cake with a rich chocolate sauce on the side. I took way longer telling that than I anticipated, but there's so many gems.
Speaker 2:You're so funny, you're like it's a rom-com, so you kind of know what happens, so I don't need to go into detail. And then the blow by blow.
Speaker 1:Then, 30 minutes later, I think I want to start about talking about ways that it is feminist. I want to start about talking about ways that it is feminist. Sally, in a lot of ways, is kind of a badass in terms of like knowing herself, knowing, like calling bullshit when she sees it Like one of the first things that that she says to Harry is I can't remember how it comes up in the conversation but he's talking about, like you know, he thinks about death all the time and she says it doesn't make you deep or anything. And now, as a 45 year old, looking at that, I can totally see the type of boy that Harry is supposed to be. I went to college with those boys.
Speaker 2:I dated those boys, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And he has this swaggering confidence about himself that she immediately pushes back on. So, one of the things that they talk about at the diner on that first road trip when they stop, they are arguing about the movie Casablanca. You know whether or not Ingrid Bergman's character wanted to go. And he's saying like she's saying like yes, of course she wanted to go, because you know women's saying like. She's saying like yes, of course she wanted to go, because you know women are practical. It was going to make more sense than for her to stay with, uh, bogart. And he's like you would rather have that passionless marriage than give up the man that you had the best sex of your life with. And she's like, yeah, uh. And he's like, oh, I see, you haven't had great sex.
Speaker 1:And when I was younger watching that and this is something I wish I had recognized in myself I didn't get how much he was mansplaining her own experience to her. Like I took it to mean like, oh, he's someone, like he's been around, so he's had, you know, like, lots to compare to. And you know she has only had one or two boyfriends or whatever. Like in my head I was like, ok, I understand why he's saying that and then like there's a very funny moment where he says like so who did you have this great sex with? And she's like I'm not going to tell you that. And one of the other things that happens is when he says like okay, fine, don't tell me. She immediately shares and she's like Shell Gordon and he's like Shell Sheldon. You did not have great sex with Sheldon. If you need your taxes done, sheldon's your man. You need a root canal, go to Sheldon. But for humping and pumping, Sheldon. But for Humpin' and Pumpin', sheldon is not the guy, it's the name. Give it to me Sheldon, you're an animal, sheldon, ride me big Sheldon.
Speaker 1:She doesn't really like contradict him, but she's very much like dude, like you can't tell me what I, what my experience is. Yeah, it's just gross, yeah. And he then asked like well, why did you and Sheldon break up? She's like how do you know I'm not so with him and he refers to him as Sheldon the Wonderslong or something like that. So like obnoxious prick. She had a very good reason for disliking him. So I really appreciate that and I actually, when I was in my 20s and it was on heavy rotation in my VCR, I remember thinking that the orgasm. The fake orgasm scene wasn't necessarily in character for Sally, because they show her to be kind of like buttoned up. But watching it this time, my feeling is, yeah, she's someone who might get easily embarrassed, but what she really likes is like calling Harry out on his bullshit and like she's willing to be a little bit embarrassed in public, to really embarrass the hell out of him.
Speaker 2:She also is. She also is not embarrassed to like ask for what she wants. Right, like that's the whole high maintenance thing. I'm putting quotes around that, like in the I like what I like, you know, like the nora efron in in self-insert um, like which a lot of women we've been taught to not be okay with that. We've been taught to be very embarrassed about needing special treatment. So like, in that sense, the sort of being okay with being embarrassed is completely in line.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes and her like it is so funny and it is like such a testament to meg ryan's talent that she, she, she goes through all this, and meg ryan actually suggested this for the scene. Um, they, they had it that she was just going to be, they were going to be talking about it, about the orgasm gap not that they called it back that back then. And she was the one who suggested what if she just fakes it right there in the in the cat's deli? And they're like, yes, um, but so she goes through all of this thing and then she stops and gives him this like sunny smile and and and eats a little bit of coleslaw. It's like it's shit eating. Yeah, sunny and shit eating at the same time. It is a fucking ray of sunshine, totally. So that is amazing. Then, her response to her incompatibility with joe and her response to like the world of dating after joe and her friends.
Speaker 2:Like you got to get married before you die her, her agency.
Speaker 1:But it comes back to the I want what I want and I would. And you actually even see, at one point there's um, uh, when she says, like she wants apple pie, she wants it heated, a la mode strawberry ice cream, um, on the side, um, and like she goes through this whole thing, well, what if we don't have like? And if you don't have it, then nothing, not even the pie. And so it's just like she's willing to accept nothing if she can't get what she wants. And that is amazing.
Speaker 1:This is not someone who is like stomping her feet, going like I want what I want, give me what I want. It's like, give me what I want. It's like this is what I want, okay, I'll move on, right, um, whereas Harry wants what he wants and is gonna stomp and and cry and and get a karaoke machine to sing to an answering machine to someone who doesn't want to respond to him. Right, right, um. So in that way, like Sally's a pretty awesome protagonist and it's pretty great seeing her navigate this odd friendship that takes that takes 12 years I mean, it takes 10 years to become a friendship and then takes even more time for them to like become, well, not for them for him to become someone that she could actually love. That was another thing that I saw that I really appreciated and I'll include in the show notes.
Speaker 1:A commentator and I found it on Reddit, but he also has a sub stack saying that the movie is actually about Harry's moral arc going from a complete piece of shit to being someone who is capable of being in a giving partnership and being worthy of Sally, and I think I think that that is a fair assessment, that is a reasonable assessment of of, uh, how the story goes. The problem is, right, right, I'm with you.
Speaker 2:Billy Crystal is so goddamn funny that you like you don't have to be me to forgive him for being such a dick right, right and then and then the consequences are that like we're given the message that we need to just wait and that dick will turn into the guy that it's, it's. It's like it's the beauty of the beast story again it's, it's. It's another Beauty and the Beast story. Again it's another version of the Beauty and the Beast, where, if we're we, if we are patient, we women, then this prick will turn into someone who's worthy of our love.
Speaker 1:And that is even better than what I think I actually took from this, because I didn't think that Harry was a dick, I thought he was uncouth, but I thought, and I thought the movie was telling me, that he was right. Now, part of that is because I very much internalized the idea that I am high maintenance and that I am too much. That I am high maintenance and that I am too much, and it seems like, you know, harry getting frustrated with Sally being high maintenance is that we are supposed to empathize with him, with him. Yeah, there's a point where they show, like there's a montage of things they're doing together. And there's one point where you just see them in a restaurant and she's ordering and she's going and going and going and going, and you see the waiter turn from her to Harry and they both kind of roll their eyes at each other, and so we are invited to find her ridiculous.
Speaker 2:We're in on the joke with those two yes At.
Speaker 1:Sally's expense, at Sally's expense. So the high maintenance conversation they're watching. They're both at home and they are together like watching Casablanca, like he's got it on or she's got it on. When he calls and she says that's what's going on, he's like oh, tell me what channel it's on. So they're watching together and they're quiet for a minute and there's a scene and Harry says like, oh, ingrid Bergman, total LM. She's like what do you mean? And he's like low maintenance.
Speaker 1:There's two types of women. There's low maintenance and high maintenance. And she is definitely low maintenance. And she said well, which one am I? He's like oh, you're the worst kind, you're high maintenance and you think you're low maintenance. And she said I don't see that. And his response is oh, really, waiter, I'll have the this, but I want the mustard sauce on the side. And she's like well, I just want things the way I want things. And he says, yeah, high maintenance.
Speaker 1:And, to Sally's credit, she refuses to accept this as a bad thing. But I don't know that the movie refuses to accept this as a bad thing. Agreed, and Emily did not refuse to accept this as a bad thing. I took it in as like, oh, gotta be a little, gotta be. I gotta be more like ingrid bergman, more accommodating, yeah, and that is. And I think, like we've talked before about how some some films are are like time capsules, and so there are aspects of this, and I think even the idea that women are supposed to be low maintenance, um, and men get to decide what that means because, like, oh my god, is harry high maintenance. She didn't go to michigan, but it's another big 10 school.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh my God, oh my God. His neuroses require emotional labor from her, and that's not something that men talk about around being high maintenance or low maintenance, like Sally's stuff. Sally's preferences require actual labor, like you have to put the mustard sauce on the side or whatever, but no emotional labor. That's our whole thing about. Like okay, then I just won't have anything, she doesn't complain about it, she doesn't need comforting about it. Oh my God, this is real-time epiphany friends.
Speaker 1:That is a little light bulb over Tracy's head.
Speaker 2:I can see it Actually a light bulb when you say men get to decide, because men don't tend not to see the emotional labor that they cause, that they leave in their wake as anything. They don't see it at all and so, like super high maintenance dudes who require so much emotional labor from those around them, don't see it. And then they think that because she wants the mustard sauce on the side, she's high maintenance Holy shit.
Speaker 1:And the conflict between them because they have sex. And there's this great scene afterwards where Sally calls Marie and Harry calls Jess, and Jess and Marie each have their own phone on either side of the bed and so we get this split screen. It's an amazing scene. They had to do 61 takes because of the way that it was set up.
Speaker 1:We hear, you know, each of them saying like what happened? And the way that Harry describes it is like during was good, but then I felt suffocated. But she didn't want anything from him. And even when he talks about like um, how long do I have to hold her? It's 30 seconds enough. Like it's again, that's physical labor, it's physical closeness that he's objecting to, and his suffocation Like it's all in his head Cause she hasn't asked anything of him. Yeah, that's an amazing insight. Yeah, and you know, again, like props to Sally for being like I'm not doing this for you, because that's what she says when he's like you know, let's go to New Year's together. And she's like I am not doing this for you, I am not giving you this free labor. It hurts, so stop. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Whew. So I want to talk a little bit about, like the heteronormativity. Okay, so like the thesis the people say that the thesis of the film is that men and women can't be friends and like part of the problem of the film is that that proves to be correct. They're friends and then they end up falling in love. And then they end up falling in love. And I would like to push back on that and saying, like the thesis proves correct is it feels like Harry is able to actually see Sally as a full and complete human being because he is friends with her first and that's what was necessary for him to get over like his misogynistic bullshit uh-huh, uh-huh so like that's it's not saying that men and women can't be friends and like one of the things is like those are harry's words, sally thinks he's nuts.
Speaker 1:And like we don't really see any other characters talk about it. Like Sally asks Joe like do you have any women friends? He's like no, but I'll get some of them if it's important. That's one of those things where, like it's in the mouth of the character, the character is clearly a misogynistic asshole. Character does not see women as full and complete human beings. When he says it, and uh, you know, this is his, his growth, but we don't get the movie pushing back on it exactly and the the movie showing like actually no, like friendship doesn't depend on what's between your legs so that's what right.
Speaker 2:And and the heteronormativity I mean you started this by saying heteronormativity. Like one of my best friends in the entire world is a cis man who is also gay, um, but like the whole reason that he says that men and women can't be friends assumes heterosexuality.
Speaker 1:Yes, so that was that was like where I was going. Next, um Cause it's. He says, like you know, every man wants to sleep with any woman and it's like, no, no, that's not true. Like that, that assumes straightness. Straightness, it also assumes allosexuality. Like there are asexual men out there, right, you know, even like heteroromantic, asexual men who, you know, do want to be in love but aren't interested in sex, right, you know? Right, so like, okay, that that, and you couldn't do that in a movie today yeah, like in 89, maybe they would have thought to talk about gay men.
Speaker 2:They would not have thought to talk about asexual.
Speaker 1:No or transgender. No, because that's the other aspect of it. I was just like I cannot imagine a a trans man or trans woman or or non-binary person saying, like I can only be friends with people who are my same gender or my same gender, yeah, yeah, so there's, there's that aspect of it and we do again, like we. We see some pushback, like when harry says like all men are thinking that about, uh, about cuddling after sex, and he is saying he is confidently wrong, and sally reacts as if he's confidently wrong, but the movie doesn't necessarily show us that he's confidently wrong, except that when we see Jess and Marie in bed, when Sally and Harry call them, it's in the morning, it's like six in the morning and they are like spooning, they're all cuddled up and asleep. So like there is just a little bit of like. No, harry, you don't speak for everyone. The other aspect of the heteronormativity is the way that women talk about marriage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, that's where I thought you were going initially, actually, when you brought it up.
Speaker 1:So now some some of this, and this was another. There's a very interesting youtube video that I'll link to. In the show notes about it's uh, I can't remember the name of the, the channel, but they talk about like spinsterhood in in like a like they use an old-fashioned word to to describe like women who are happily single and they they say like, actually, sally is very much a spinster. The film has her end up married, but we need to focus on the fact that that happened despite the fact that she's happy to be single. And one of the things that they said was yes, she does feel pressure to get married, but women today, spinsters today, feel that pressure and it was much harder, much worse than In 1989. Yeah, yeah, yep, yep. So there is that. And that kind of comes back to like when Alice says, well, at least you could say you were married. Yeah, I'm reminded of that line in Airplane, yep, same.
Speaker 2:Same. Yeah, I'm reminded of that line in Airplane. Yep, same same. Yeah, yeah, listeners, there's a line in Airplane where you know the woman's like this scared. She's never been so scared and part of the problem is that she's never been married. And then they make a joke about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so, like the film, buys into a little bit of the idea that women want marriage, yeah. But again, sally didn't, until she realized she did, and it wasn't so much that she wanted marriage, she wanted a family. Oh that with Joe, she wanted a family, she wanted a family yeah.
Speaker 2:So like she wasn't, like she didn't want a husband, she wanted kids. Yeah, yeah, exactly, there's a difference. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:One thing that's a little tough to watch. I mean, this is a charming movie, and one of the things that they did intentionally was they wanted to film it in as many beautiful places as possible to kind of show that not only are Harry and Sally not seeing each other, they're not seeing anything, they're not recognizing the beauty that's around them, the beauty that's around them, but these are very privileged people. Yeah, and the conversation between Alice, marie and Sally about, like men and getting married and you know, arthur's never going to leave his wife and all of that are the problems of privileged people. And that's not to say that loneliness isn't a problem for everyone, everyone. But it like getting to that like well, at least you could say you were married, is is um, it's one of the reasons why I can understand where people get frustrated with, like rom-coms. Yeah, um, even though, like that's the genre, yeah, yep, but gosh, like there's just it's a both end with this film yeah, yeah, that's where we started.
Speaker 2:You know something that's occurring to me about this, and then we should, we should probably move toward wrapping up.
Speaker 2:Is, you know, thinking about the thesis of the film?
Speaker 2:I don't think this was an intentional thesis, but I'm thinking about the fact that, like part of the takeaway for me in in, in talking about it again with you just right now, is the way in which the you know, harry's heterosexual take on women from the beginning is fundamentally misogynist, like the reason he can't be friends you said, said this, but I'm just, I'm just restating it the reason he can't, that Harry can't be friends with women is because he doesn't see women as people, and so the thesis I feel like not or the Sally as a human being, he grows as a person and he can't help but fall in love, and I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this, but that as a takeaway, as an insight, actually does feel like comforting to a degree, right, that, like it's, harry does grow as a human right, he does become worthy and he does it through, finally, like not seeing Sally as just an object, and so, in that sense, like there, I do feel like, not the dialogue, but the script does some work to dismantle some of the like yucky shit that we inherited in the eighties and are still working with today.
Speaker 2:I mean the problem is and here's the both and the problem is that then, like, what is the like action step for folks, like for women, make him see you as a human being, like this is wait until he does. For men, hopefully there is actually an action step like open your goddamn eyes right and stop, just like. She's not a vagina with legs Right Like, but for women it's. I don't know.
Speaker 1:It feels a little bit like what we were talking about, I think, two weeks ago with the toy, where it's like, if you're the right kind of nice to your oppressor.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, you're right, yeah, exactly Exactly. And like I mean, and in some ways, like God bless Nora Ephron and Sally, who you know, is not fawning she doesn't get there through fawning but yeah, I mean, it's not, it's not just about nice, it's also about arguing with in the right way, it's not, it's not just about nice, it's also about arguing with in the right way.
Speaker 1:Well, because, like Sally still does, like she refuses his bullshit. But when the third time they meet each other and he, he says that, um, that he and Helen have have gotten divorced, um, like she truly feels empathetic towards him. When, like I'm trying to think if there was someone like that in my life, the third time I met them, like, that sure I'll raise my hand to do emotional labor for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah now, to be fair to harry, he very sympathetically listens and like hears what happened between her and joe. So like this is this is not just her like oh you poor baby, right, but it does change her and some of that is like that's how we've been conditioned, totally, totally. And like Harry has grown enough at that point to be able to be friends with her, to be able to listen to her, hear her and see her humanity in her heartbreak. Yeah, but it's, it's complicated. It's complicated and like I don't regret loving this film, like I really I don't.
Speaker 1:There is so much in the film that is so funny.
Speaker 1:And like the chemistry between these two actors is just off the charts.
Speaker 1:Like if they had gotten two different actors who didn't like same exact same lines, like even did the orgasm scene, all of that, it wouldn't work because these feel like two people who, like we you and I have talked about how, when you meet someone who just like you, connect with yeah, I do this thing from um. There's a gene wilder movie called the frisco kid where he's a um orthodox rabbi, he's um traveling through america. He's thrown off a train and um is like dejected and he's walking and he sees in the distance some Amish people and he thinks that they're other Jews and he starts running going landsmen, and that's what I feel whenever I meet someone who immediately I'm like you, me, we connect, it's like landsmen, kindred spirits, yeah, and so even when they hate each other, there is a connection between Harry and Sally. There's that chemistry, yeah, and so even when they hate each other, there is a connection between Harry and Sally. There's that chemistry, yeah, and so. That's like that's part of the magic of storytelling through the film through the medium of film.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because, like, it wouldn't have been nearly as delightful if it were a book, right? You know, like if I were trying to read this yeah, harry's delightful if it were a book, right. You know Right. Like if I were trying to read this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, harry's just too much of a prick yeah. Yeah. But it's through Billy Crystal's delivery. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And his charm. You know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I actually have a hard stop, so I'm going to try and wrap us up, yeah.
Speaker 1:Just real, actually have a hard stop. So I'm going to try and wrap us up. Yeah, um, just real quick. I don't think it passes the Bechdel test. Oh, they only talk about men. I was trying to think of an example and, uh, they talk about a woman dating Harry.
Speaker 2:So okay, All right, I mean it's not a surprise based on the other things we've talked about.
Speaker 1:Uh, now the thing the woman dating Harry at that time. Her name is Emily and she's played by Tracy Reiner, so I thought that was kind of cool. So it's Rob Reiner's daughter.
Speaker 2:All right. So let me see if I can, if I can reflect back what we talked about. So I'm talking about Harry met Sally. When, when Harry met Sally here, rob Reiner, nora efron and, um, I think, um, wow, we talked about so much with this. So the the crux of the question that you brought to the table, I think, is um feminist question mark. That's ultimately the question that you are you're asking yourself and and us, of this, of this film, and the answer is like yes, question mark, I guess maybe, maybe not.
Speaker 2:It depends on how you look at it. So the there were. There are things about it that are feminist. Sally Albright, meg Ryan.
Speaker 2:Sally Albright is awesome. She's a badass, she is a spinster, in the words of one of the commentators that you read. Insofar she's happy being single, she likes things the way she likes them and she's perfectly content to accept the consequences if what she wants is not available, which is deemed high maintenance by this film. But in fact, through our analysis, through my light bulb at the top of my head blowing off, realizing that actually is very specific, with a specific kind of labor which is very physical labor, think that maintenance is even a word that should apply to him is very high maintenance emotionally, when it comes to emotional labor that sally ends up having to do for him. Oh, my god, I'm still reeling a little bit. So like this and this. So this insight really, like in the meta question, in the societal question, is like it's really underscoring the fact that it is men, in a heteronormative setting, who determine what high versus low maintenance looks like and, because they are the ones kind of making these determinations, don't even see the labor that they are causing in their wake, causing in their wake. So on the other side of Sally's like unashamed spinsterhood, is a lot of pressure over and over and over again, like pushing women into heteronormative relationships whereby marriage is the pinnacle, like set out right, like at least you die married. We hear from one of Sally's friends about you know she needs to get on that because she could die any day but at least she'd die married. So that kind of pressure that we're seeing, that in some ways is time capsule, but in some ways like the movie doesn't't fully like as a script, doesn't fully like counter, because it does push Sally into marriage and it also does show her, like the scene that I remembered, where she was really sad because there's something wrong with her that Joe didn't want to marry her. So there are like these moments that still, even though we're given with one hand this badass Spencer, with the other hand we're given these moments where she's pushed into matrimony.
Speaker 2:So some of the the kind of like in terms of furniture of the mind, like I named, that this has similar lessons to the beauty of the beast. We women, uh, are expected to kind of like wait around for the asshole, the monster, to be transformed into someone worthy of our love. You took it even further and said that for you personally, like there was actually, like you internalize the idea that you needed to be more accommodating, that being high maintenance and thinking you're low maintenance is actually a sin that you needed to try to avoid committing. And also, because of Billy Crystal's charm, this film reified an impulse in you that already exists to kind of give a pass to really bad behavior. If it is funny, go for the joke, go for the joke, go for the joke, go for the joke. That was the mantra in our house.
Speaker 2:We talked a bit about heteronormativity, um, and the and the what some people call the thesis of the film, which, in harry's voice, says that men and women cannot be friends because the men are always thinking about sleeping with the women, um and how, like heteronormative, that is, both around sexual orientation, also around allosexual versus asexual, also around gender expression, like, in many ways, folks who don't fit cis and straight and allosexual meaning that they have sexual desire don't fit into that. Every man pronouncement that Harry makes from the beginning and we talked about the fact that maybe not a thesis but possibly a takeaway is not that men and women can't be friends, but that unless and until men see women as fully human, they can't be friends. And when they do, they grow as human beings and can possibly actually fall in love, so that they're not like trying to negotiate how long they are forced into physical intimacy not sexual, but physical intimacy before they have they, before they can split. What else, what I got, what you got, what I miss.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh Um, I think you, I think you, you. I did it. Yeah, I got it all. Oh my gosh, I can't think of anything that we mentioned, that you didn't talk about, huzzah, that's a first. I'm going to put this in my diary with a little ribbon. A little heart for Tracy.
Speaker 1:I do just want to like a last note. I think that this movie is worth watching, Like it is in, the like it was part of, like the historical record I can't remember what they call it, but you know it's culturally significant and I think that that is right. I think that that is the right thing to do. I think that it is the right thing to do. I think that it is a good movie to watch, but I think that we need to make sure that when we watch it, we talk about it, and I think that's kind of where I get with everything that we're talking about here yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah Is like you can watch this. You can be charmed by Billy Crystal and laugh at his one liners and, like the you know, sheldon the wonder schlong is very, very funny phrase. But you need to make sure that when you're watching it with someone who does not have the life experience that you and I have, that you talk about like can you see how? That's a little bit of a like problem. He's kind of a dick, ain't he? Yeah?
Speaker 1:um, and that that's. But it's also like we need to really like lift up, because I kind of glossed over how badass sally is is the other aspect of it, like I glossed over how much of a dick harry was and I I didn't see what a badass she was, what a badass Sally was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And how important it was that she pushed back, and that makes sense, too, because of the way in which we have been trained to identify with the male protagonist, always as a culture. Yeah. Yeah, awesome, all right.
Speaker 1:Next week I'm going to bring you my deep thoughts about Big Trouble in Little China. I have not watched that movie, I think since I was a kid Me neither.
Speaker 2:So I'm looking forward to seeing how it holds up. All right, see you then. See you then. Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy. But don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?