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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about The Muppet Christmas Carol with Erika Plank Hagan
Light the lamp, not the rat!
Just in time for Christmas, the Guy Girls welcome Emily’s dear friend Erika Plank Hagan to the show to discuss The Muppet Christmas Carol. There’s a reason this musical (and surprisingly faithful) adaptation of the Dickens morality tale is so beloved: not only does Michael Caine act his face off with his Muppet co-stars, but the framing of Gonzo playing Charles Dickens allowed Brian Henson to go all-in on the frightening aspects of the story without losing the littlest viewers. Erika shares how this film is often included in Episcopal sermons (Dickens was a Church of England guy), how the Disney executive’s decision to remove a song in the middle of the film is a storytelling travesty, and why bringing a raw turkey to someone’s house on Christmas day is just plain rude.
Whether you’re here for the story or for the food, throw on your earbuds and take a listen!
Mentioned in this episode:
Antisemitic trope of Jews as spiders
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
This is an interesting choice for our first collaboration and, I think, a really successful one. I think they still kept some of the Muppety stuff that you'd want, but it also really changed the trajectory of how Muppets tell stories.
Speaker 2:We're sisters, tracy and Emily, collectively known as the Guy Girls. Every week we take turns re-watching, researching and reconsidering beloved media and sharing what we learn. Come overthink with us and if you get value from the show, please consider supporting us. You can become a patron on Patreon or send us a one-time tip through Ko-fi. Both links are in the show. Notes and thanks.
Speaker 3:I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, we are very excited to welcome my dear friend, erica Plank-Hagan, who I have known since my days at Kenyon College, to share her deep thoughts about the Muppet Christmas Carol with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you. Let's dive in. So welcome Erica. Thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited.
Speaker 3:So it's been a few years since the last time I saw a Muppet Christmas Carol, although I kind of went back and looked at some favorite moments recently, like Light the Lamp, not the Rat of course and you mean you could have gotten through the bars any time. So it's been a few years since I've seen it. What I remember about it is that I feel like it's a really faithful adaptation of the original Dickens, which I think is pretty cool, so that that part I remember. I remember loving the fact that they made Sattler and Waldorf the Marley brothers, even though there was only one Marley in the original. I remember feeling like Michaelael cain is a treasure because the man, like he, understood the assignment he totally did right he acted his face off, he so did um and is one of the reasons why I am.
Speaker 3:I am here for the idea of a Muppet Pride and Prejudice. Oh my gosh, where um I? Someone said something like Adam Driver is Mr Darcy and everyone else Muppets, um and um. Yeah, that's the. And then I know that there's some pretty good music in it. Like, I don't like. I just remember that they were bangers. I don't, I couldn't sing them.
Speaker 1:I would now sing them all for you.
Speaker 3:So, tracy, what do you recall about this film?
Speaker 2:I just like I actually intentionally did not go back to rewatch it before this session because I really like, I'm excited and also I want to like experience it the way our listeners might right, with a little, a little bit of openness. What I remember is light the lamp, not the rat, and I, in my mind, this is the movie that made me love Rizzo. So I have an ongoing deep affection for Rizzo the rat, uh, gonzo's best friend and roommate, which I think started with this movie and was maybe, like, certainly reinforced by Muppets from Space. I don't care what the chronology was, it might be wrong, but in my mind, because the way that I watched them, it started with Muppets from Space. I mean, excuse me, muppets Christmas Carol, reinforced by Muppetsets from space, but really, like this is the one I identify as the reason that I love frizzo.
Speaker 2:Uh, in part because of like the lamp, not the rat, I mean, that's just such a great line and uh, yeah, that's what I got, that's that's all I got. So, erica, enlighten us why, like you're a longtime listener, you're a longtime listener, you're a longtime friend of the guy girls, and like this was the one that you were like. I want to come on and talk about Memphis Christmas Carol. Why? What's in it for you? Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:It is a huge part of my ritual of Christmas and my growing up with specific social groups, how we watched it together and what came out of it and, honestly, lines from it are in my house all year long. Am I growing up with specific social groups, how we watched it together and what came out of it? And, honestly, lines from it are in my house all year long? No doubt it's said regularly. It's just how it is and I didn't like this movie when I first saw it. So it's been an interesting evolution of like to love and honestly, I'm an Episcopal priest and Dickens comes up a little bit for us.
Speaker 1:A lot of his books were written with a really specific critique of society. That was also an understanding of a certain Protestant theology. For him it was pretty linked and so we use Dickens in sermons a lot. So, as I, that's a pretty recent part of my life, but as I did that and started rewatching the movie, I was like, oh interesting. Like there are things that I saw as cringe as a kid that now I'm like, oh well, that it makes sense now. So that's a fun evolution for me and Muppets.
Speaker 2:I mean come on. I mean you got.
Speaker 3:Everyone knows that the guy girls are big muppet fans we actually with our our list of movies that we're gonna cover. We have to be like have we done muppets too recently?
Speaker 2:yeah, oh no yeah, and like our avatar on patreon is like us as muppets like, which is brilliant yeah, you, you, really you don't. You don't have to convince us that the Muppets are awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think the Muppets are ideal for telling this story In this thesis, I will yeah, Like it's. It's pretty great.
Speaker 3:Why don't you kind of just walk us through the story? Like the story of A Christmas Carol is pretty well known, so like, don't feel like you have to go into every single detail, but just maybe what makes this the Muppets version of it, and also feel free to take your time too.
Speaker 1:So, like you said, this is A Christmas Carol story that most people know, although I was pondering kids, kids, our generation, what they might have known about it. Watching it in 1992, um, I came up that like scrooged was out a couple years before, so maybe that, but I think for most people this was their first introduction to the story so that's interesting oh, that is interesting, of the littles, you know, like the Gen X understands Dickens because of the Muppets, because of this.
Speaker 1:So, like you said, I'm going to go through the plot, but mostly I'm going to hit on the Muppeting of it. Is that a verb?
Speaker 2:It is now.
Speaker 3:Yes, I have a poetic license that I can lend to you. Excellent, thank you. I have a poetic license that I can lend to you.
Speaker 1:Excellent, thank you. So it's a musical and it opens with kind of a sweeping scene from on high, looking over, you know, 1800s London, and it's very stylized, it's like it would be on a stage, I think, to recognize it. And you swoop in and Charles Dick dickens, which is gonzo, which is bonkers, and his friend frizzo are narrating the story to us. They look directly at the camera and talk about, uh, ebenezer scrooge, who's going to come in, and he swoops down the road and the color changes on the screen. It goes from like warm to cool and we have our first song, you know. Here comes mr and um about what a horrible scroogey guy he is. And it's a very muppet thing where they do this, when they go side to side, when they sing um and it's all introducing the kind of character he is.
Speaker 1:And, uh, I skipped an important part. I'm gonna circle back, you ready. So gonzo says hi, I'm charles dickens, and and rizzo goes hi, I'm rizzo the rat, and you're not charles dickens, you're gonzo. And that's actually a really important part to the story. That um, it's saying we are going to be playing characters here and um. There's a really fun part where gonzo's like I do the story like the back of my hand. And then he holds his hand out and he's like there's a really fun part where Gonzo's like I know the story like the back of my hand. And then he holds his hand out and he's like there's a wart on my thumb and Rizzo's like what? And then what proves it to Rizzo that he's Charles Dickens is that he says around this corner is going to come Ebenezer Scrooge. And then he does so. It sets him as an omniscient storyteller. Much of what Gonzo says is straight from Dickens.
Speaker 2:That is so cool, like I mean we'll get to it, but like the meta in terms of storytelling, in terms of what the Muppets were teaching us, as like young Gen X and millennials, about how storytelling works by breaking the fourth wall, by like naming the, like their puppets on the ends of people's Anyway, sorry, it's amazing.
Speaker 1:Carry on, carry on, all right. So we have that song. Scrooge goes to his office there's a fun thing where he turns around and everybody has been singing and they all freeze and then they disperse onto the street. Going into the office, we meet Kermit as Bob Cratchit and a bunch of rats that you'll remember from Muppets. Take Manhattan, who worked in the restaurant. They are the bookkeepers in the thing. Um, while Scrooge is in the office, he has some visitors. We have, uh, bunsen, honeydew and Beaker who come in as two gentlemen collecting money for charity for the poor. And um, scrooge says absolutely not. And there's, there's a lot of fun. Are there no poorhouses? Are there no prisons? And they go. Well, yes, there are plenty of those. And he goes. Phew, I was worried. And what's lovely is that Honeydew does the talking and then Beaker goes meep, meep, meep, meep, meep, meep, like in the exact same cadence of the Victorian it's marvelous.
Speaker 2:That is their shtick and it's fantastic.
Speaker 1:It works really well um, fred, his nephew, who's a human, comes in to invite him to his home for christmas dinner and scrooge is like I don't even understand why you're celebrating this. You're stupid poor. And he goes I'm fine, yeah, it's christmas and love and that's all it is. Um, I'm obviously paraphrasing the dickens there. I don't't think stupid poor was, but that's the basic thing. And then comes a scene that's very important to my heart, because my cousin Elizabeth loved this so much and with the VCR tape we had to rewind it and watch it a lot which is that Benjamin Bunny is that his name? Yeah, the little bunny comes up and he sings Good King Wenceslas looked out on the feast of steven and scrooge opens the door and he goes brightly shown the moon that night. And then, um, he gets very scared and, um, he asks for money for his carol and scrooge goes, bah, humbug, and slams the door and he walks away. And then scrooge opens it again to throw the wreath at him and it hits him in the head and he falls in the snowbank and a hundred times before we could continue. So Scrooge goes back in Bob Cratchit asks if they could have the day off for Christmas the next day and he says no. And he says, but there's going to be no one to do business with. And he says it's a poor excuse for picking a man's pocket every december 25th. But fine, be back all the earlier the next day and he leaves. There's a lovely song where bob cratchit and the rats clean up and the rats are doing the things like they're standing on brooms and having to catapult to close the windows because they're rats. They close close up for Christmas. Kermit goes outside and it's the penguins ice skating parties. There's a fun montage of winter delight and I want to point out that this is all practical. So when you see Kermit skating across the pond, that's practical. And there's a place where Gonzo and Rizzo go whoa, whoa, whoa, and that's also practical and it's very well done.
Speaker 1:Scrooge goes home and this is the one place where there isn't practical stuff, which is he looks at the doorknob and it turns into the face of Jacob Marley, which is actually Statler, walt Open Statler. We'll talk about that later. That's something I want to tag tag, but that's not practical. It becomes very ghosty. Then he goes in um gonzo is still narrating from the outside, and so a lot of it is them trying to get inside to see what is happening. So they do this a lot in the movie.
Speaker 1:When things get a little ghosty, they get a little funny too, to try and make it a kid's movie. Um, uh, he's searches the house to see if there are any ghosts and he decides there isn't. But he sits by the fire in the dark with his bread and his cheese. You know it's, it's very um stark. And then, uh, the song that I think emily is thinking of in her head right now, which is the Marley and Marley, you know Woo.
Speaker 1:So Sattler and Waldorf come up and they practical, but you can see through them they do a lot of fun ghosty stuff and they sing a song about how they are doomed and covered in chains for how horribly they lived on Earth and that Scrooge can not have this fate if he learns from the three spirits that are going to come. And Scrooge is like that sounds terrible, I don't want any spirits, and they're like, too bad, they're coming. The first one comes when the clock strikes one. He goes to bed. He's very trepidatious, gonzo makes it up to the window and he goes. The first ghost comes when the clock strikes one, and then, dong, there's light everywhere he gets thrown off the window.
Speaker 1:Um, the ghost of christmas past is in the book described like a candle flame, like flickering, and for this ghost in the movie it's a puppet. But they recorded it first in baby oil and then underwater to have the etherealness of it, which baby whale sounds awful, but I I don't know why so very light and floaty and british accenty. And um invites him to go back to see christmas past and he takes his the ghost's hand and they fly out and gonzo and rizzo repel a rope up there so they can also go along and continue to narrate for us. There's a lot of that too, of like, how do we get Gonzo and Rizzo to the next scene, and it usually works out just fine. So they fly over London, flash, flash, flash, going back in time.
Speaker 1:Scrooge says the dawn is coming and she goes no, it's the past. And they end up in his school room, which is a one-room school room, and there's a great scene where the camera pans along the side and you see, like aristotle and moliere and shakespeare, and then, as it slides along, it's rizzo and gonzo all on the same. It's amazing, um, and they're. Uh, scrooge says, oh, my gosh, I remember this room, this is amazing and they're all my friends and this is wonderful. And then the kids come in and go hey, you got to take the coach home for christmas. And he goes who cares about stupid christmas? And scrooge realizes that he spent most of his christmases alone in that room and the loneliness of it. And they do a fun time lapse thing where you see him getting older, um, and then at the end it sort of stops that time-lapse and the eagle comes in. I'm blanking on his name right now, do you all have it, it's Sam Sam.
Speaker 1:Thank you, sam. The eagle is his headmaster, who comes in and says you've now know it's. You're starting your life in the world of business and I think you're going to really like business, because that is what adults do we work in business very sammy and he goes it's the american way. And then ganza comes up and he goes it's the british way. So he's starting his apprenticeship at Fozzy Wigs Rubber Chicken Factory, which I think is marvelous because in the book it's Fezziwig.
Speaker 3:That is so wonderful. I feel like someone in the Henson Corporation.
Speaker 1:the entire reason they wanted to do this was because of Fozzy Wigs so we travel to the uh christmas party where we see a more grown-up adult, slightly handsome scrooge, um, walking in and everyone else is partying and he goes up to fozzy or fezzy wig and says do you see how much this party is costing? And he goes oh, you know, it's christmas. This is what we do. We spread joy, we have fun. At this party is um animal and dr teeth's band from the muppet show who are playing the old victorian music. And then animal can't take it anymore and goes bam bam bam, bam, bam, bam bam. And it goes into like um ragtime music, which is totally not what it would be, but it works. And um, in that moment Scrooge meets Belle, who becomes the love of his life.
Speaker 1:And you see, michael Caine and Scrooge get very, very uncomfortable and the Ghost of Christmas Past says there's another Christmas with this person I remember. And he goes please don't show me that one. And they go out and they're outside lots of snow. And she goes another year until we can get married. And he goes business continues to be poor. I'm doing this all for you to try to make money. I love you. And she goes. You did once. And then there's a travesty because they cut a very important song, which we will definitely talk about later. So if you watch a certain version of this, what happens now is that she gets up and leaves and Rizzo the rat is crying hysterically and Michael Caine is crying and you're like that was a lot. If you see another version, belle has a song saying when love is gone, you have to move on and it's very, very sad.
Speaker 3:I I remember that version and the thing is like it was weird because I haven't seen it in its entirety since the like the mid 90s, and so when I I heard that there was like this, this controversy about this version, I was just like wait, what? How did this happen?
Speaker 2:we gotta talk about it. Yeah, let's come back to it. I want to. I want to hear about the other ghosts, yeah this is a shot, first moment.
Speaker 3:Anyway, go ahead yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 1:Um, scrooge cries, dissolve, dissolve, dissolve, dissolve. He's back in his bedroom. Then clock strikes two. It's the ghost of Christmas present, who is a giant, redheaded, bearded, muppety guy. It's a guy in an outfit. It's sort of like a Big Bird style puppet instead of a hand style puppet. He's walking around. He's enormous, he fills the whole room and he goes. You're a little absent-minded spirit because he keeps forgetting, because he's always in the present, which is from the book. And then he goes. No, I'm a large absent-minded spirit. He's that kind of punny guy and he shows him what Christmas can be when you're not alone. And so outside and everyone's singing and Michael Caine does a marvelous job of watching and then starting to like, slowly try to dance with him, it's very dear. And then he goes. This is wonderful. I think I want to see family on Christmas. That's a thing, right. He's like yeah, that's a thing.
Speaker 1:And he takes him to his nephew Fred's apartment where he's having the Christmas party that Scrooge said he wasn't going to go to, and this is where my 12-year-old self, seeing in the theater, got horribly embarrassed and sad and wanted to leave. I did not like this, which is that they play a game. It's like 20 questions where you think of something and everyone asks you and Fred says okay, I'm thinking of something, and they ask questions and they get to like it's an unwanted animal creature that is never welcome and people are like is it a rat, is it a cockroach, is it? And his wife goes oh my gosh, I know who it is. It's ebenezer scrooge. And everyone laughs hysterically. And then michael kane being michael kane, is just like devastated. And then 12 year old erica was like this is awful. Why are we doing this? Because we learn and grow that's so sweet yeah so, um, he goes.
Speaker 1:All right, I don't want to be here anymore. Can you show me a place where people are actually nice? And they go to Bob Cratchit's house and the best song in the movie is here. Bob Cratchit is walking home with Robin on his shoulder, who is Tiny Tim, and they rehash. It's a remake of a song that was sung earlier at the Penguins Christmas party.
Speaker 1:It's, it's the season to be happy and joyous, like it's this, it's the best. So they're walking home and, um, then we jump back in the house and we have mrs piggy as emily cratchit and the various children around. The girls are pigs, the boys are frogs, clearly. And, um, they're getting the christmas dinner ready. There's a goose. Uh, the way that rizzo and gonzo end up in the house is they go down the chimney and land on the goose and rizzo does a little dance on the hot goose. Um, here's an almost bechdel moment that I'm gonna need your help with later. And then, uh, they come in and it's uh, god bless us. Everyone.
Speaker 1:Tiny tin talks about how he's glad people saw him in church, because it reminds them that, you know, uh, jesus healed the sick and lame and that, with he could be a reminder to that for everyone and the love we share, and god bless us everyone. It's a really beautiful, heartwarming thing and um that you could tell michael cain is really buoyed by it. And then he sees Tiny Tim coughing, like he gets so excited he can't, he can't breathe anymore, and so the family immediately shifts gears and like, takes him to the side to take care of him, and Michael Caine turns to the ghost of Christmas present and says is he gonna be okay? And he goes. Well, I can only see the present, but I feel like if things keep going as they are in the present, next year there will be an empty stool with a cane next to it, and that's when it ends. That's when they do back, and at this point Michael Caine has realized or Michael Caine, ebenezer Scrooge has realized that he's learning things here, that growth is happening, it's a good idea. So he goes all right, right, at three I'm going to get the ghost of Christmas future and I am welcoming it. I am here for the lesson.
Speaker 1:What it is and what happens is a fog comes and it's really, really scary, like a wall of fog comes in and he runs, runs, runs and gets overtaken by it and then he's in a graveyard and the ghost of Christmas future is my favorite design. It's like, um, it's like a graveyard and the Ghost of Christmas Future is my favorite design. It's like a huge blanket, like a huge cloth over the guy. You can't see his face in the hood and the arms are a little extra long and basically all he does is point. He never talks, so he points with that really long skeletal arm at things and the music here is do-do, do, do do like it's um, good vibes, good moment.
Speaker 1:And this is where gonzo and rizzo get scared and they say this is a scary part, but we'll see you at the finale, which is important for kiddos because then we know there's a happy finale to get through this scary part. So, um, michael, cain, caine, erica, we'll talk about that too, how people are, who they are. Ebenezer Scrooge says all right, show me what you're going to show me. So he flashes into the street it's still snowy, but rainy and gray and sad. And there are four wealthy pigs so fun to say with um monocles and like that kind of thing. And they go. Did you hear that he died? And they go oh my gosh, I thought he was too mean to die. Well, I will go to the funeral if there's lunch provided. And they go. And um scrooge says oh my gosh, who are they talking about? And the guy guy doesn't talk right the ghost of Christmas future. So he just points again and they go inside.
Speaker 1:And then it's Joe who's a spider, and they're three people bringing stuff. And he goes. So what did you bring me from the house of mourning? You know, what do you got for old Joe? And um, these people would snuck in and stolen things before the house got turned over. And one guy's, you know, I have his mother of pearl cufflinks and I have this. Um, there's a place where someone says I have his bed clothes that are damask, fine, damask. And he goes cheap, fine, damask, right. And then the last, the best one, is someone says and here's his blanket, and the spider goes why? It's still warm. I don't pay extra for the warmth, you know. And she goes you should, it's the only bit of warmth he ever had. And then it was, haha. And there's a marvelous moment here where you realize joe is a spider, takes the things and hands it to his back legs. So there's this like little bit of business in the whole thing that he's just taking it all in.
Speaker 1:So at this point ebony scrooge is a little disturbed and he goes spirit who are they talking about? And points and he, and he doesn't answer and he goes well, show me some happiness then, because this is too sad, show me. Uh, go. Let's go to bob cratchit's house, where it's very sad because tiny tim has died on that christmas. And, um, bob cratchit kermit comes back and talks about how he found a lovely gravestone that looks out on the water to feed the ducks, because tiny tim always liked the ducks and everyone's. Their throats are catching, they're trying to cry and they sit down and Kermit Cratchit says you know, we're all very sad, but this is the way of things. There's comings and goings, partings and leavings, and because of the love that he showed us and what he taught us, we will never forget him and he will always be with us. It's a really nice message for his sad family.
Speaker 1:And um scrooge has a sort of epiphany and he goes who, who's the guy? Who's the guy that they were talking about, who had died? And the spirit takes him back to the graveyard and points to a grave. And ebenezer scrooge goes no, no, don't tell. No, I don't, I don't actually want to know. And he keeps pointing at the grave and pointing at the grave and finally he wipes it away and it's his own name. And he goes this can't be it. This surely can't be it. People can change. Surely people can change, please, I beg you. And he holds his robes and he goes oh my gosh, they did it all in one night. Of course they can. They're spirits. You know, he's just lost his mind.
Speaker 1:Um the bunny comes back. He opens up the window and the little bunny that he had thrown the wreath at is going under. And he's the fine young man. Do they still have the turkey down the street? The one that's as big as me, you know? That moment the bunny gets it and uh, he goes off and runs the thing and uh, there's a song where scrooge does the awkward dance of the coast of christmas present and he buys all sorts of things for everybody and it ends up being a parade trailing through the town of the bunny holding this enormous turkey and everyone holding his gifts that he's bought everyone.
Speaker 1:He goes back and he visits sam the eagle and fozzie, and, as they're very old, and gives them presents. And he goes back and he visits Sam the Eagle and Fozzie, as they're very old, and gives them presents. And he goes to his nephews and they're flabbergasted, but he gives them presents. And he goes to all these places. He goes to Bob Cratchit's house and then he turns around and goes shh, hide, hide, hide. And he goes in the door and he goes Bob Cratchit, you are not at work. And Kermit says you gave you the day off. And he goes no, you did, you didn't. He goes well then I'm going to give you a raise and pay your mortgage.
Speaker 1:And at that point mrs piggy is emily cratchit and she goes and I'm gonna punch you in the weight, you're gonna. What now? And so he brings everything in, and I've always had a problem that he brings a raw turkey as, like, the gift for christmas dinner. But we'll put that aside and it ends up being a huge magic. It's just rude. It's just rude. She spent all day cooking that goose and then he's like anyway.
Speaker 1:So it ends very Muppety.
Speaker 1:It's around the dining room table and they are singing. And another thing I don't love is that they give Michael Caine the God bless us everyone line. Instead of Tiny Tim Robin starts to say God bless us, and then Michael Caine goes ahem, god bless us everyone. But he went through a lot. I suppose he earned it. And then it pans out and out and out and out, and it's sort of like the end of a lot of the Muppet movies, where you see everybody singing the end song, which is the love we have. The love we have, we're never quite alone. You know, it's one of those things, the Christmas, which is why the missing song is really important. An interesting thing when it pans out up to this point we've been very sort of forced perspective it looks like a big city and when you pan, pan back, you sort of see it's a set like everything gets a little smaller and you see that everyone who did this movie fits in this one little thing so it's a frame from the very beginning, with the no, you're gonzo.
Speaker 1:Yeah too, like it's, it was all a set, yeah yeah, and then the credits which replay one of the song, including insult to injury, a Martina McBride cover of the missing song.
Speaker 2:Scene All right.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right. So I feel like we have to start your analysis with the missing song, because now it's like I feel very strongly about it.
Speaker 1:Well, it's Chekhov's gun. At this point, we have to start your analysis with the missing song, because now it's like I feel very strongly about it.
Speaker 2:Well, it's Chekhov's Gone. At this point you have to explain it.
Speaker 1:All right. So this is interesting on several levels. I'm going to do like the official version first and then the like why in my household this is a bombshell. It is a song that is a companion song to the end song, when love is gone. When love is gone. And the last one is the love we found. The love we found. It's telling a really specific story.
Speaker 1:The executives at Disney thought that it was too long and too boring and too sad for kids to deal with this three minute song of a woman singing about leaving Scrooge because the love is gone. So they took it out of the theater release and it wasn't in there. Then, in the VHS release, brian Henson was like we really need this song, it's important. So they put it in the VHS release. But then the DVD and initial streaming releases they took it out again.
Speaker 1:So there are people who have seen all these different versions of it. Now on Disney+ there are two. You have to figure out which one has it and which one doesn't. But they thought they had lost the footage after the VHS release. They're like, oh, it's gone, it doesn't exist anymore, which just seems like a weird thing for the Disney Vault, but anyway. So that's the timeline. What is bizarre for my personal story with this thing is that, first of all, if you had asked me if I saw that song in the theater, I would say yes. My memory is sitting in the theater and watching that song and specifically remembering that the singer's nostrils flare dramatically when she sings because this is what my brother and cousin and I, like she would start seeing. We go, oh no, the nostrils like every time. And, honest to god, that's why I thought they could. I thought someone was like that is too nostrilly, we cannot have this song.
Speaker 3:Until like two days ago, I thought I'm just imagining, like on the big screen too, so like a lost driver trucking it.
Speaker 1:We didn't climb it, which is what, in my head, canon happened, but clearly it didn't. It was not there, oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1:Yes, my husband has a friend group that watches this every year and during the pandemic we started doing it, where you can watch movies at the same time and still talk to each other and we always pause and sing the song and then restart it again, like for us it's become a thing that you have to add in and I have to say, like as a musician and as a storyteller in my life, like it's really important. There's a reason why they reprised it at the end, like it's it's explaining this whole arc of what.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a turning point for him.
Speaker 1:It's huge yeah and just take it out like songs don't matter. Like you're in a musical, songs matter a lot. Um so I really disagree with that disney exec and also I find it very, very interesting. But then what kills me about disney in this moment is that they took it out of the movie but they'd had Martina McBride record a really terrible country cover of it and they were like, well, we'll still put that in the credits, cause that might sell and it's a bad. It's a good song in the movie. I actually love martina mcbride. It's a bad version of it, like it's not good.
Speaker 3:Um so the travesty of the song that's anyone's watching this for the first time, I recommend you do it with that's interesting, just the because we talk sometimes about how, um like, because movie making is a particular type of art, because there's so much collaboration, and then also, and then there's so much collaboration and then there's happy accidents and things like that, and then you also sometimes get executive meddling, for sure, and this was the first movie that Henson Studios made with Disney after it sold with them?
Speaker 2:So that's what I was wondering. I felt like it was right around that time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's what I was wondering, like I felt like it was right around that time. Yeah, I watched a documentary on Jim Henson, also on Disney+ A-plus recommend, which it's interesting. It showed a lot about how Henson was really into just doing weird stuff on film and like he got into puppets not because he necessarily loved puppets, because he liked doing weird stuff.
Speaker 1:And then it all sort of snowballed into the dynasty that it is. But if you think about the movies that he was really behind ahead of time Labyrinth and Black Crystal and stuff that are weird and didn't do great commercially Part of why he sold things over to Disney was that he'd been working nonstop for all these years. He recorded Sesame Street and the Muppet show at the same time, on separate continents. He would fly into new york and do sesame street and then fly to london to do muppet show and back and forth for like years. So his health was bad. He was just done and he sold it over to them and I'm interested what that first collaboration would have looked like if he hadn't died.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then brian took it over and what pressure this must've been for Brian Henson to like have the legacy for his dad, and the documentary showed a lot of like him always trying to prove himself to his dad. It did not quite go in great. So there's all that baggage. This is an interesting choice for our first collaboration and, I think, a really successful one. I think they still kept some of the muppety stuff that you'd want, but it also really changed the trajectory of how muppets tell stories from here on out. If you think about it like, uh, there was a, um, it became more, these muppets which were always kind of subversive and weird. It was like how can we make them fit into this mainstream thing?
Speaker 1:I think really successfully here, I think not so successfully in other things.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, talk about subversive, like the way that they frame this so, where Rizzo is actually saying you're not Charles Dickens, you're Gonzo, yeah and like, and then ending with it being like no, this is a set and we're telling a story, yeah, and so I love that kind of subversion. I mean, some of it is just, I love meta storytelling in general, but I think it's also really cool because you don't necessarily see that as often for kids and it's right in line with um, there's a monster at the end of this book, yeah, um, it's the same kind of subversion and one of the reasons why tracy and I love that book so much was because it wasn't talking down to us. It was like look we, we know that you have to suspend your disbelief and so like, but join us and it'll be fun it's a.
Speaker 2:It's a, it's an extra layer. It's like a dramatic irony, but like also a meta commentary on what it is the storytelling is.
Speaker 3:You know, it's, yeah, it's it's pretty cool, um and like. It's curious why you don't see that more often in children's entertainment, because it does give that kind of like that um necessary distance to be able to handle yeah, handle like over emotional things that could be triggering for kids.
Speaker 1:Thematically. This is such an interesting meta choice. You know, brian Henson is dealing with his dad's death and the legacy he's leaving behind, and Muppets brought such love and joy to everybody. And then you're turning it over to this corporation and the story of Christmas Carol is, in part, a critique on the cruelty of a society that only cares about money.
Speaker 2:So it's an interesting choice. It started like part of why it was such a successful enterprise was because Walt did tap into a degree of wonder and power of storytelling, right. I mean I think that that treating animation as a true art form is something that Walt and Jim had in common, something that Walt and Jim had in common and so like what it had become by the 90s, like sure, like commercialized and like all about the merchandising and things, but also like there's a core of like solid storytelling and taking what was other in some ways considered like a childish um media. I mean not because when Walt was making snow white it was like an unknown media, yeah, but still um and scary like they went for it yeah, they went for it.
Speaker 2:They really went for it, and they treated it as a true art form and and and and. We're pushing the bounds of what this new media medium could do as a storytelling vehicle, which is is exactly what Jim Henson did with puppets. So like, yes, I totally see the irony and like the like um dissonance, and also I I see the resonance as well.
Speaker 3:Well, there's also that. The fact that cause I mean we we started off talking about how Michael Caine understood the assignment and like it would have been very easy for an actor to phone it in, because I'm acting against felt yeah.
Speaker 1:So actually this was something I wanted to bring up. That's a common thing when people say what makes this movie work is that Michael Caine takes it seriously and he's playing it straight. And what I have been realizing more and more the petroleum time I've watched this movie, is that the Muppets are doing the same thing In other movies. They have been versions of themselves. I'm Kermit, I'm going to get a show on Broadway. I'm Kermit, I'm trying to go out to Hollywood.
Speaker 1:You know it's these characters we know doing things, and in this one it is kermit as bob cratchit, full stop. The rizzo gets to be the animated character the sorry, not animated the muppety character that rizzo always is. But everyone else is putting on the dickens character in a way that the muppets I don't think really did before yeah this um, and I really see that keenly with gonzo, who's a chaos muppet right, who is like and not especially smart in the right no, you know always just trying to do crazy things that are going to blow him up and everything, and and you know the scene that you remembered, where rizzo goes under the thing to get the jelly beans and he's like you
Speaker 1:could go under there the whole time. Um, so the full thing is that, uh, they're trying to get in to the house to watch what's happening with Scrooge and you see it, uh cuts to them and Rizzo's on top of the fence and he goes. I'm only scared of two things heights and falling from them. Um, and then, of course, he falls and, uh, they're like are you okay? And he goes oh, I left my jelly beans on the other side. And he crawls under the fence to get the jelly beans and he crawls back and, uh, gonzo, as charles dickens turns and goes, you're an idiot. And last night, when I was re-watching this, I was, like, everyone's always telling gonzo he's an idiot. And here he's, he's absolutely playing this role of this intelligent, eloquent, omniscient, like all knowing guy. It's wild, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I absolutely. Michael Caine understood the assignment and is brilliant. And also, he was like in mid-60s at this point and he looks really good for a mid-60s. I had to do math yesterday.
Speaker 1:I would not have guessed he was in his mid-60s because I've seen him on more recent stuff and he looks older and I was like, oh, baby, michael kane. And then I looked up but I was like dang, someone puts on sunscreen. So absolutely, he makes this work like it's good, but I also think that's sort of what the muppets are doing, too like they're.
Speaker 3:The way they're using them is in a different way well, and I I think like kind of a meta examination again, like this is brian henson putting his own mark on the Muppets.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So he's taking them in a different direction. That is pretty much universally beloved. I mean, everyone loves Muppet Christmas Carol. Some of the Muppet movies are forgettable or people don't necessarily rewatch or anything like that, but this one is one everyone loves. But this one is one like everyone loves and that's like even though he's taking over his father's legacy, he's still doing his own thing with it, which is pretty cool. I cannot imagine growing up with someone like Jim Henson as your father. Like that's got to be so overwhelming and intimidating. Truly watch the documentary.
Speaker 1:It's fascinating and, um, if you, if you love the muppets and watch the show over and over again on syndication and such like, you really should watch the documentary yeah, yeah, it's very, very good. Um, I wanted to talk a little bit about pigs as riches pigs as rich bitches.
Speaker 2:Let's do it, yeah, so casting.
Speaker 1:So casting is important, like they I mean Fozzie is Fezziwig is fairly obvious, but the rest they did like really understandable casting for things. You know, obviously Kermit's Bob Cratchit and Robin is Tiny, tim is brilliant, all these things. And then pigs are not always rich, horrible people. Miss Piggy is fine, you know there are other pigs on the street who are doing great, but anytime it's a horrible rich person saying a really bad thing about scrooge or about a poor person on the street. It's a pig in a monocle with a you know fancy hat and I just keep thinking animal farm, like that weird, like I feel like that can't be a co-ent. Like someone made a really strong choice.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's in the zeitgeist too. I'm thinking about that song on the White Album. Have you seen the little piggies in their starched white shirts?
Speaker 3:It's a. Thing.
Speaker 1:Joe the Spider collecting the stuff. I looked at all the animals. There were creepy insects that just like take, like the pigs, as rich bitches.
Speaker 3:So one thing that I think is interesting though, to bring into. That is so Dickens was very anti-Semitic, which was typical for the time. It was period typical. A spider as like um offense, basically, you know, is, you know, getting stolen goods? Uh, there are anti-semitic tropes about, uh, jews as spiders where you really yeah, yeah, um, and so like I I am not in any way like holding this movie accountable or anything for that, but I think that that's interesting Like and I'll include some of the show notes there are images of like political cartoons, I guess you'd call it of a Jewish person as a spider and having to do with like money lending and then also having to do with having their, their, their fingers in every pie, so like they're controlling everything.
Speaker 1:I really want to go back to the book now and see how that character is coded yeah, so that is a choice, yeah his name is his name is joe yeah and is that? In the movie I'm not sure in I haven't read the Dickens in a while.
Speaker 3:In the Dickens, yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's something that I think is an interesting aspect of it, and then that also brings in the fact that the kind of evil rich people are pigs, which I don't think that that ever is an anti-Semitic coded thing, tracy, do you know? Because I mean it's not kosher, will not? I don't know, I don't know, certainly nothing is coming to mind.
Speaker 1:yeah my main reference is like uh, captains of industry, and you know cops and like people who have power in the, in the system? Yeah, for sure rich.
Speaker 2:But but rich people is often quoted that way yeah, and then and then. Anti-semitism would claim that all jews are rich so there it's, it's not a. I mean, it makes sense that you would ask the question. I'm not aware of it, but that doesn't certainly not a, you know, comprehensive encyclopedia over here and this does kind of circle me back to when I referenced you.
Speaker 1:You know I was talking about this in sermons and stuff that it's a really specific Protestant Christian way of looking at things that if you are a good person, you share and you love and then it all works out, was a really big idea at this time.
Speaker 1:And um in with the poor houses and the prisons.
Speaker 1:Dickens points out the travesty of that in most of his books and he had life experience in that right that he had family in the poor house and they lost their home and a lot of his books about like stay out of debt because that's bad news bears and this system is corrupt and awful.
Speaker 1:And I think for him that would be linked that if you are this good church of england person that you can't, you can't condone this thing that is happening and I think he uses this story to do that. You don't. You don't have to have that to like read the story and certainly now what we're going through with oligarchs and income inequality and all that stuff. It hits right and without needing that specifically, but I do believe dickens had that and the muppets by staying so true to the dickens, I think it makes sense why all these priests are like let's talk about muppet christmas carol in our sermon, like I think it really um it's, it's in this movie a little bit so, um, one question I have for you is, because this is the story is a redemption arc for for ebony or scrooge?
Speaker 3:um, what is that? Like the, the, your faith tradition, or that dickens is trying to say because he's, he's, like, it's very much an indictment of the system, and scrooge is both a victim of the system but also a perpetuator of it. What is? Is there something within that about what? Uh, what is required for redemption?
Speaker 1:so, uh, it is facing your own, it is dying to yourself. So facing your own coffin is a pretty not subtle way to do that. And then it is that rebirth and resurrection that comes in the morning. It's really kind of an Easter-y story more than a. Christmas-y one.
Speaker 2:That's blowing my mind a little bit, honestly, that he sees the grave and then wakes up the next morning like I reborn I, I I've never put that like specific point on it, obviously it's. You say it and I'm like duh trace, obviously that's what's happening, super there. Uh, jewish commentator over here didn't see it. Wow, that's wow. I think emily was going to ask you to also put a finer point on dying to yourself.
Speaker 3:Explain what dying to yourself means, oh and keep it snappy.
Speaker 1:Keep it snappy. I mean, this is the conversation people always have. Does it mean we have to literally die? Does it mean that we give up everything of what we are and give everything away and live out in the desert? Does it mean, like everyone's had their own way of? But that's something that Jesus says, that if you, if you die to yourself, you will be reborn.
Speaker 1:That the last will be first, that it's a flipping of how you think things happen to me, and in the Easter story specifically, there's the death on the cross and then burial and then resurrection.
Speaker 3:Okay. So it's kind of like I'm taking it as this metaphorical death of your ego, so that you're able to face outward and like do do good outward rather than um worry about yourself so much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's? What's coming up a lot now in theology stuff is the idea that, uh, if you are baptized into the body of Christ, you are part of this collective thing and that, when you were only looking out for yourself as an individual, that you are not participating in that and our, our rebirth and resurrection and everlasting life is in that.
Speaker 2:So church with erica yeah, this, this muppet conversation, like I got weird. I mean it's kind of on brand for the muppets that it gets weird, but like I did not see this one coming clear, that I don't think brian henson meant it to be a Christian allegory.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's necessarily and Dickens kind of did yeah.
Speaker 3:Wow, I knew that Dickens was Christian in the way that I know that 19th century writers in England were Christian unless they were otherwise.
Speaker 1:So fun fact if you were born in England, you're automatically a member of the Church of England. That's why they have the largest, even if you don't go Wow.
Speaker 2:So even the Jews born in Britain.
Speaker 1:They could claim membership in the Church of England. Oh cool, if you want to, if you want to, and almost no one goes to church. It's fascinating.
Speaker 2:So it's fascinating, so it's like it's like it's really interesting, so like, like, bringing the episcopal priest on to talk about this like makes sense.
Speaker 2:So we kind of went there, um and also, um, like what you were just starting to say, um and and and what you have said, erica, like brian henson didn't mean it this way, dickens did it't?
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter, kind of like, in some ways, like sort of that resurrection, as like a trope, as like a thing as a narrative device, happens, sure, and I think that's more what, like is blowing my mind that I hadn't seen it because it's, even if, even if it's not intentionally Christian, right, the idea of death and resurrection because of the influence of christianity on our culture is everywhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, I just didn't, I've never seen it with the christmas carol, it's so obvious, uh, so, anyway, and and it sounds to me like maybe dickens really did mean it, like in a in a in a in a religious sense, that what happens to scrooge is a religious redemption arc yeah, and for him that would have been the same thing as how you are in society, like if you are a good, civic, moral british citizen, then you also are a good christian, so you act the same yeah, it's the same in the pew as you do on the street yeah, um, if you go in the pew, yeah, um, no, I mean like maybe you don't need to go to the pew because, because, you are a good person on the street.
Speaker 1:You just bring a raw turkey to you and then you yeah, yeah, all right.
Speaker 2:okay, I'm looking at time. We've been talking for a minute. Erica, you mentioned a Bechdel moment, okay.
Speaker 1:I can argue this both ways. So I'm very interested in your house perspective. When Bob Cratchit and Tiny Tim are walking home to the Fabulous Song Miss Piggy, as Emily Cratchit is making the dinner in the house and she is caught at the stove eating the roasted chestnuts and her daughter, brigitte, goes mother, mother, you, you said you weren't going to eat those chestnuts until father came home. And she goes I am just taste testing them. That's what a good cook does. It's about the chestnuts. They both have names. No, no, kermit is not in the room and the reference point is till your father gets home that's an interesting one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean the way I understand alice and bechdel's tests like the right. So, listeners, remember, we have at least two named female characters. They talk to one another, and they talk to one another about something other than a boy. I think the actual subject of that conversation was the chestnuts. That's where I'm going to land on this one.
Speaker 1:Especially three named characters because they're twin girls. It's Brigitte and Brigitte or something like that. Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll allow it If she had said like you're saving those chestnuts for father Agreed, it's the same thing as like two o'clock. Yeah, yeah, it's like it's a time rather than they're for him.
Speaker 1:I agree, I agree so hang on, I'm gonna, I'm down myself and I my husband, I may or may not have like re rewatched that a couple times, arguing about it last night.
Speaker 2:I'll tell him what you all came down to Neither confirm nor deny. Oh man, all right, erica, before I see if I can kind of reflect back what we talked about, is there something you need to? One more thing, and it's super short. Let's hear it.
Speaker 1:Let's hear it. One of the things I learned in the documentary about Jim Henson was that he was really interested in computers and the 3D animation that was starting to be possible, like Toy Story and that sort of stuff, and his studio was starting to fund research into that, such that when I first saw the movie and I saw the doorknob using the same morph technology as the Michael Jackson video Do you remember that the doorknob turns into the face I was like oh, oh man, puppets are supposed to be practical. You know they're selling out. And after watching this documentary I'm like actually I think jim henson would have been really down with that. Like that he cared about the storytelling on film. He wasn't necessarily a puppet guy first, which is weird for me to wrap my mind around cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm glad you got that in, because you did mention a couple times in your synopsis about what was practical and then that one moment that wasn't yeah, okay, so let me see if I can. There's a lot. I'll do my best. But you say so. This was the first collaboration with the Disney folks, which is really interesting, and so we see this film that's in some ways very true to the Dickens, despite being Muppets, like kind of meta things in the arc of the Muppets that I think are that you pointed out, that are really interesting, that maybe make it work, or that this, unlike many Muppet movies, where Kermit is Kermit and he like runs a theater and now he's going to take his show on the road, kermit is an actor in this movie he is not and he's not playing himself, he is playing Bob Cratchit and that's it, we're done. Kermit is playing Bob Cratchit and that kind of use of the Muppets in that way is new and also I think maybe we see a little bit more of it moving forward possibly, but here it's unusual for the Muppets and it's also baked into that is this really interesting kind of meta framing that we see, where that's not just the case that Kermit is playing Bob Cratchit but Rizzo and Gonzo say to us the audience directly hey, y'all, it's us, but we're playing characters, which is really pretty cool. I don't know why that delights me as much as it does, but it really really delights me that the sort of breaking of the fourth wall, not just to break the fourth wall and be like, hey, isn't this cool, but like, by the way, kids, it's your lovable friend Grover, not Grover Gonzo, it's your lovable friend Gonzo, but I'm not Gonzo, I'm pretending to be Charles Dickens and, look, I'm Charles Dickens. And then we have the omniscience where like, and we get to be sort of Rizzo, gets to be proxy for us a little bit, but also not like I don't know there's something like just really delightful in all the layers of that. So that was something that was. It was sort of interesting. There was there's.
Speaker 2:You took time to kind of mention some of the really like and we came back to it just now so the really like beautiful practical elements of the um, penguins, ice skating, and like various like Kermit and um and and Robin or excuse me, bob, and Tiny Tim, sort of like wandering down the street, which was pretty cool, those practical elements and then we came back to the end, at the very end you just also named. There is at least one moment that is not. That is CGI, assisted with like sort of a morph technology that in some ways feels anathema to the whole Muppet experiment, which is all based in the practical. That's part of the wonder is what they're able to do with puppets. And because Henson was sort of, what can we do, like, how can we push this media of film, medium of film, further to do amazing things? Maybe isn't so anathema, maybe, maybe, uh, jim himself would have been chuffed, as they say in Great Britain.
Speaker 2:Um, so, uh, one of the things that, like I did not foresee when we sat down together, uh, is the ways in which this film is important in sort of thinking about Episcopalian and Church of England theology, which, like, uh, what, um, but yeah, cool, because Dickens, like it was important to him and so and he was a great writer and so he like built into his stories like an accessible way to talk about some theological concepts, in so far as, like you know, be a good person and you'll be a good Christian. Like, share love, share resources. Things will work out if you do those things Like. That's a fundamental kind of theological understanding of the cosmology and how God works and how reward works in this life that Dickens bought into and baked into Christmas Carol, which then became accessible for generations, not notably Gen X and millennial, but also moving forward. So of course the Church of England and Episcopalians use it in their sermons to talk about, like sharing resources and love and things working out.
Speaker 2:So my mind is blown and also, like, of course, on that same score, my mind is blown in, of course Scrooge dies to himself per Jesus's instructions by seeing his own grave and then is resurrected when he wakes up and they did it all in a night and it's Christmas morning and he hasn't missed Christmas morning and Michael Caine sells the heck out of it and I believe it and yay.
Speaker 2:And he takes a raw Turkey to the Cratchit's house which Erica points out is really rude to the Cratchits' house, which Erica points out is really rude. So that's, yeah, amazing, like again, the resurrection trope whether we sort of are really digging into the theology of it or not like it's out there in Western culture and it's in there in Christmas Carol and thereby a Muppets Christmas Carol and okay, trace there it is, um, another thing that I just totally had no idea. I even, kind of embarrassed to say, kind of forgot that it was a musical, because it's been so long since I saw it. Uh, eric was making a face if you're not watching, yeah, um, and so this missing song, which was, is really important, like in terms of, um, there's, there's echoes of it, from love being lost to love being found, but disney execs were like boring and cut it in the theater release not because of the nostrils I really did and memory being what it is.
Speaker 2:This is so beautiful. Erica remembers watching it in the theater, even though it was not in the theatrical release, which I really, really love, and the whole nostril thing, like one imagines, like driving it, being able to drive a truck through this poor singer's nostrils up on the big screen, even though they never were so. Wow, um, cool, we did. We spent a brief moment talking about bechdel test in this movie. It arguably passes, um, because Miss Piggy talks to her daughter about chestnuts that she wasn't gonna eat until her, until her husband came home. So it's arguable. But the guy girls landed on a pass. And what am I forgetting?
Speaker 3:Those are the things I remember the filmmakers to actually give some truly scary moments without losing the little kids watching Like. It gives them the ability to stay with the film even when it's scary, because they know that it's going to be okay, because they have Gonzo and Rizzo walking them through, letting them know there's going to be a happy ending.
Speaker 2:Right, right. And the fourth wall breaking that Erica named there, where Gonzo and Rizzo say this part's going to be a happy ending, right, right. And the fourth wall breaking that Erica named there, where Gonzo and Rizzo say this part's going to get scary, but we'll see you again at the finale, thank you.
Speaker 1:We talked briefly about casting choices for pigs as capitalist terrible people.
Speaker 2:And I learned about the spider stereotype, which I'm aghast at and grateful to know which I'm aghast at and grateful to know, the spider antisemitism trope that we don't have enough information to say for sure if that was a thing that Dickens was doing consciously or unconsciously, if the spider codes as Jewish from the original, or the character who becomes the spider, yeah Cool, all right anything else I forgot you everyone should watch the jim henson documentary on disney plus, if you, if you watch sesame street, if you love muppets, it's really great cool jim henson documentary on disney plus.
Speaker 2:Oh, also two versions of this movie available on dis Plus. Make sure you get the one that has the song from Belle, who was Ebeneezer's love.
Speaker 1:Actually, because I feel so bad for this singer, I want to name her name.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Her name's Meredith Brun, and I do feel really bad for her that she had this huge, amazing song in a feature release that was then cut Like that's terrible. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2:Meredith Brunn, you know we really feel for you, and folks listeners watch the one where she gets to sing. Let's give Meredith her day in our living rooms, since she didn't get it in the theaters, All right. Well, Erica, always lovely to be with you. Thank you so much for coming on and for bringing your wisdom and your spirit.
Speaker 1:Thank you for letting me crash the party. I am just so tickled. This has been great, thank you.
Speaker 3:And I'm bringing you next week, I'm bringing you my deep thoughts on when Harry Met Sally. Oh yes, because I think of that as a New Year's movie. So I figured, absolutely.
Speaker 2:All right, can't wait. See you then, bye, bye. Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?