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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts About The Toy
That's U.S., not you ass!
The Guy girls remember the 1982 Richard Pryor film The Toy with a great deal of fondness, in part because it was on heavy rotation in the Guy household through their childhood. But a film about a billionaire’s young son “purchasing” a black man to be his toy for the week has some pretty chilling implications that the movie itself doesn’t do enough to acknowledge.
In this week’s episode, Tracie shares how rewatching this movie in 2024 is both better and worse than she expected. It’s better because Richard Pryor is a delightful and talented center for the movie. And it’s worse because the film lets the villainous U.S. Bates, played by Jackie Gleason, get away with truly reprehensible behavior without real consequence and gives him a happy ending that he doesn’t earn. While the film is an indictment of capitalism, it also reinforces the idea that being nice to oppressors is how to secure human rights.
Take a listen–just beware the piranhas!
Mentioned in this episode:
The commentator who led to Tracie’s “fractal” insight
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
Like in some ways it's delightful because Richard Pryor is delightful, like he's just I remember really, really liking him in this movie.
Speaker 1:What others might deem stupid shit. You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. We're sisters, tracy and Emily, collectively known as the guy girls. Every week, we take turns rewatching, researching and reconsidering beloved media and sharing what we learn. Come overthink with us and if you get value from the show, please consider supporting us. You can become a patron on Patreon or send us a one-time tip through Ko-fi. Both links are in the show notes and thanks. I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to deep thoughtss About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be bringing my deep thoughts about the 1982 Richard Pryor film the Toy to my sister, emily Guy-Burken, and to you. Let's dive in. Okay, so I know you've seen this film because it was on heavy rotation when we were kids, but tell me, what do you remember about the toy?
Speaker 2:So there's a couple things I remember. I remember that his last name is Bates, because they call him Master Bates. I remember that which I didn't get at the time.
Speaker 2:I was just re-watching it for today and and they say it, and Richard Pryor laughs and I was like oh, I don't think I would have remembered, except that there was a teacher when I was in high school whose last name was Baton, and so the kids would call him Master Baton instead of Mr Baton Got it, and I think that's the only reason why it's there.
Speaker 1:I didn't know why it was funny when it was in heavy rotation.
Speaker 2:So I didn't at the time either. So I remember that. I remember his dad's name is US, yes, and so with the southern accent it sounds like US. I remember him driving in a go-kart or something like that, chasing after Richard Pryor. The little boy is played by the same kid who played Flick in Christmas.
Speaker 1:Story Scott.
Speaker 2:Schwartz. Yes, scott Schwartz. Yes, and my knowledge of piranhas came from this movie. Me too. I think so, me too. And then I believe this is where I learned the word litigious, because there's a point where Richard Pryor says to US and is he played by Jackie?
Speaker 1:Gleason, us, is Jackie Gleason. Richard Pryor says it actually, though to Ned Beatty's.
Speaker 2:Mr Morehouse, yes, that his wife or girlfriend, wife. Wife is very litigious, yeah, litigious, yeah, um, and I know, like I the the idea of this, the, the conceit of the film, which is this very spoiled little boy is taken to a toy store where richard pryor is working and said he can pick out anything he wants and he picks out. Richard pryor is really worrisome like, and I, I, I feel like dad talked to us about it a little bit, but I don't know for sure yeah, so, um that, and there was a story about propellers on the very, uh, like the blonde bombshell on on her, on her, um, her uniform at her at when she was a waitress, yeah.
Speaker 2:So those are just moments that.
Speaker 1:I remember.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so tell me, why are we talking about it today?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, as I said, it was in heavy rotation and since you know, thinking about lessons about race in popular culture is one of the things that we do here, you know it was on the list and I was like, oh yeah, let's check that out, and I knew it would be problematic. I knew, you know, just in my memory it is, and, yeah, I was right, I was right. You know, just in my memory it is um, and uh, yeah, I was right, I was right. It's funny, it's, it's both. It was both better and way worse than I, than I remembered. So so that's kind of interesting.
Speaker 1:Um, so a couple of things, and then I'll do a synopsis, um, that put this in sort of context with other deep thoughts, episodes. So the story was by by Francis Weber, who's the same French screenwriter and director or whatever who wrote the Birdcage, and it's directed by Richard Donner, who's the same director as the Goonies. So, yeah, so the toy was 1982, 1982, and then goonies, I think was a year or two later. So donner moved from the toy to goonies. So those are sort of interesting things. The original french version of the toy, the richard pryor character was white also, and the rich family was white and so Richard Pryor's identity really changed some of what is happening in the story. And setting it in America and you switch something out, it gives it different meaning than writing a new story would have.
Speaker 2:And so like part of what I remember was that this was like that Richard Pryor did this film, in part because it gave it was a vehicle for talking about racism.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that's true or not. Um, I don't know, maybe, but there are those who feel like this there was like a meta thing where this is actually sort of the example of him being used by white Hollywood. Um, anyway, we'll get into that. So I we have to, we have to talk about race. Uh, when we talk about this film, I also do want to talk about gender and class. Um, I want to talk about like sort of the storytelling trips and like the magical negro and the racism around magical negro, because I think that priors jack is a little bit of that in this film and the ways in which it was about race but also really like whitewashed racism. So that'll probably fill our time, but we'll see what comes up.
Speaker 1:But let me give a quick synopsis, and it really can be pretty quick, because there's a lot of like hijinks, but those will come up in conversation, but don't matter, for like the plot. The plot is as you say. We meet Jack. What's Jack's last name? Jack Brown. We meet Jack Brown, richard Pryor's character, who's an out-of-work writer and journalist and he's been out of work for so long that it's almost like become the profession of work writer and journalist and he's been out of work for so long that it's almost like become the profession. And we learned that he's in, he's in danger of losing his house because, because they have no money and they just he just cannot get a job, and so he decides to just take whatever he can. So in fact, he takes a job as a cleaning lady lady, uh, for the Bates group, um, and they put him in a french, like a maid's outfit, like a black dress with the apron, um, and say, oh for fuck's sake about that, oh for yes sake yeah, what the fuck uh-huh
Speaker 1:uh-huh and then, um, he gets fired from that. Ultimately, I mean, something happens, but ultimately it's because Jackie Gleason's US Bates is just horrible and like does things that are ridiculous and Jack like tries to like adjust for the other people in the room and ends up like pissing off Mr Bates. So he gets fired from that job as the cleaning lady but then ends up we see him, he's serving as janitor in a department store, also owned by Mr Bates, where young Eric Bates is home, is visiting his father for a week from like whatever military school he goes to and is told dad told him he can have anything in the store that he wants. And, um, richard pryor is um, jack jack is is like goofing off while he's cleaning. And uh, eric decides that's that's what he wants and he says I want the black man. Like the child actually says those words.
Speaker 1:And, um, we know jack needs money. And so we see the yes, men who work for Bates like putting a hundred dollar bills into his hand until he's like, well, I guess we could talk about it. So he's sent to the Bates's mansion in a crate, um, and then you know, he keeps saying like, no, this is nuts, I'm not doing this and sort of walking away and they keep throwing more money at him. So, um, eric is like a little shit and he's got a German tutor nanny who is like watching Hitler speeches in her room and like throws herself at him. She's like I can't believe you would push yourself in here, which also really is very different with, like, a white lady making false accusations against a black man.
Speaker 2:Let's come back to that oh, look those of you who are just listening. I've been sitting here with my mouth open since you mentioned the hitler speeches like oh my god, yeah so we meet the um trophy wife, much younger, voluptuous blonde, played by theresa ganzel.
Speaker 1:Her name is fancy, fancy baits, and she's like oh, what do I have to do with eric now? And and Eric just wants to spend time with his dad. Anyway, there's a whole bunch of shit that happens, with Eric pulling pranks on um Jack and Jack being like no, I'm not doing this anymore, and whatever. But he keeps being convinced and and he actually leaves. He actually leaves after he's been humiliated, he leaves the house and Bates sends more house Ned Beatty to his house and gives him a check for $10,000, which in today's dollars is like almost 40 grand, it's like $38,000. And it's the exact amount that they need to save the house $38,000. And it's the exact amount that they need to save the house. So he comes back and again more pranking from the kid. But then they come to an understanding because all the kid really needed was someone to sit him down and explain to him that you earn friends, you don't buy them. Him down and explain to him that friends you, you earn friends, you don't buy them.
Speaker 1:The scene with the piranha jack and eric are going fishing. Eric explains how dad brought some piranha up to this watering hole to keep the hoi polloi out. That's the word er Eric uses. And Jack's like I don't believe you. There are no piranha here. Piranha are in South America, there are no piranha here. And so he wades into the water and then does the sort of sped up film running on water thing like ridiculousness, and then has holes all over his clothes because there are in fact piranha. And then they run into Mr Morehouse, who is Ned Beatty's character, who's like the I don't know, one of the key top yes, men in Bates's organization and he's drunk and fishing because he's upset. He had to fire somebody because the man has very sweaty hands and every time he shook hands with Mr Bates he had very sweaty hands. And so Mr Bates insisted that he be canned and um Beatty's more houses distraught because he was a good guy and he hasa family and he's a father and he's a husband and and so we start to see Eric witness the effect his dad has on other people out there.
Speaker 1:Jack and Eric decide to put together a newspaper. Jack is an out of work reporter, remember. Bates owns a newspaper where Jack has been trying to get a job for over a year and been unsuccessful. So they're going to put together a newspaper, um, and it's basically going to expose the dad for all of the terrible things that he's done. They interview Fancy. Oh, for the paper. They take a picture of a portrait of her. That's in Bates' office that there's a button that you press and her dress comes off and she's naked. They don't do the naked picture in there, but that's a moment.
Speaker 1:And to the interview like the butler and the interview, actually the woman who was the in charge, Mr Bates, confronts them and is like how many newspapers did you distribute? He tells Morehouse that he wants all of them accounted for and shredded. And then he says Eric says something like it's the truth. Says Eric says something like it's the truth and Bates is like let me tell you something, I'm the truth. And he like makes Morehouse take his pants down. Uh, if he values his job and just like, anyway, it's gross. So Bates offers prior, uh, bates offers Jack a job as a reporter in the newspaper, basically like to own him, I guess. And he needs a job. And so he accepts. And Eric is like you can't do that. He's going to make you take your pants down and you're like whatever, and um, and we think that that's where it ends.
Speaker 1:But then the next day we see there's a big party at the mansion and we learn that it is to get a S, a Senator and the grand wizard of the KKK in a photo op. The Senator does not know the identity of the KKK guy and we see Bates say to each of them like in quick succession if they all knew this was a fundraiser, they wouldn't be here. So he's playing them. Jack's wife has shown up. She's the head of a group called clan watch and she's shown up to like protest this. And he's like go home, I've got this, just trust me. So then he Jack and Eric in the go-kart and a dirt bike, like destroy the party, tell the senator who the guy is that he's having his picture taken with and just like run amok in this party. Bates gets really mad, gets in a golf cart, is chasing them, ends up in the swimming pool. At the bottom of the swimming pool, eric's freaking out because dad's like not coming up. Jack saves his life.
Speaker 1:And then the next day like it's the end of the week, so Jack has gone home and Eric is meant to go back to military school. Meanwhile Jack and Mr Bates have had a conversation where jack is like just talk to him, like just be there for him. You can't like because, because bates feels some kind of way about the fact that eric seems to really care for this man in a way that he doesn't care for that himself. So we see in the car, uh, you know, in the, in the Rolls Royce limo, uh, dad is like trying kinda, they get to the airport and Eric just runs away, takes a cab to Jack's house and Jack's like no, you can't, you can't be here, like you need to go home. He's trying. And then dad shows up a few minutes later and meanwhile prior has said uh, jack has said like I've never seen two people need each other the way you and your dad need each other. And, um, so Eric runs to dad, gives him a hug.
Speaker 1:Mr Bates says next year, two weeks, one week for me, one week for you, jack. Eric's excited about that. Um, mr Bates says you know I was serious about that job, if you want it. Uh, jack says thanks, you ass. And uh, us says you're entitled to call me you ass. You're the only one, because we've heard that earlier. He says it's US, not US. And then the final gag is that another rich white lady shows up and says Fancy, told me what a great job you did with their boy. Can you spend some time with my son, who's another horrible brat? And then it's the end. So there's more details in there, but that's the story arc and so like watching this now, like in some ways it's delightful, because Richard Pryor is delightful, like he's just I remember really, really liking him in this movie.
Speaker 1:He's just really wonderful, he, he has this, um, he does this thing where, when he's like having big feelings where he's not actually saying any words, it's just sort of expressing in these like emotions, not word words, like that is like so funny, it's just, it's just real and hilarious and like charming. And we get a lot of that. He does that a lot. Um, and you know the like cue, the you know heartfelt music underneath the conversations about what it means to be a real friend and and and even like about love and and relationships. You know, because Eric's like asking about like and sex and stuff and which, by the way, the character says like what do you do with your thing? And jack's like, don't worry about your thing, you'll figure that out when it's time. Well, it turns out, scott schwartz is a porn star, so I guess he figured out what to do with this thing. My, oh my.
Speaker 2:Oh my, oh my, oh my. One of the things that I I remember taking away from this was that the film does give Jack a sense of dignity.
Speaker 1:Sort of Sort of Exactly.
Speaker 2:I think that's exactly it, sort of so like but I, you know, as you're describing it, what I'm, what I am sitting here thinking, is like, well, this is like, this is a, an indictment of late stage capitalism in so many ways. But sort of cause, we're, we're, we're, we get to enjoy this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly, I think, when looked at with sort of that meta lens, it's that's when I, that's when it's so much worse. Right, because I think part of the thing is that. Right, because I think part of the thing is that there's definitely like a um, very strong, well, maybe that's overstating there's a judgment of the clan, they're bad guys and we're meant to think of them as bad guys. Right, but it's so gentle, like the actual threat is so gentle that like this you know, jackie gleason's us baits like in the end is like kind and whatever and you know, offering a job and warm and wanting his kid to enjoy the company of Jack Brown after this one week, and like that ain't how it works.
Speaker 2:Someone who says I am the truth is not someone who can be fixed after you know 90 minutes and some warm fuzzies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some warm fuzzies, yeah. And who would play politics with the Klan in that way and cozy up to the grand wizard of the KKK for personal gain? It's not harmless, and this film would have us believe that it's relatively harmless, and I think that's so. When I look at it in that like zoomed out, I also then see the ways in which this film, using Pryor for his talent and his name and his comedy, chops in that kind of like service. It's. It's just it's like a fractal, you know, and say more about that.
Speaker 2:What do you mean by it's a fractal I?
Speaker 1:mean it's what's happening in the text of the, the story to jack. What's happening to jack is happening to richard. I see, okay, yeah, yeah, right, like what's happening to this character is also happening to the actor playing him. Because one of the lessons is that everybody has a price. Because jack says like no, slavery is illegal, that's, we don't do that. No, no, I'm, I have my dignity. And then mr bates says how, about ten thousand dollars? And he says I mean and it's funny, it's played for laughs because he says, like you, you know, my wife and I were about to make love. Do you want to join?
Speaker 2:in.
Speaker 1:Mr Morehouse. It's funny, yeah, yeah, but the moral is that we all have a price and that's like, yeah, so that's what I mean, fractal and I don't know, like I don't know how to.
Speaker 2:You know, one of the things that I think that is coming up for me is we were very much raised in the we don't see race kind of era.
Speaker 1:Sort of not racist as opposed to anti-racist.
Speaker 2:Yes, which you know we've since, and this, this was made during that era and if what, what I am kind of what's lighting up in my head right now is that there is this sense that, like by saying like slavery doesn't exist anymore and you know, having Richard Pryor in this play, in this, this film, and playing this part, it's like the, the stutter step of not racist to anti-racist. That may have felt like progress at the time, in the same way that, like the don't ask, don't tell in the military was felt like progress or felt progress in the 90s. I mean it was progress because um and so, so, and that that's kind of where, where what I'm thinking about is like we're looking at this 40 years on and it's horrifying, but at the time, like that was the best that could be done because anti-racism was not going to get into a mainstream film.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think that may be. That may be true. I do think it's interesting that the contemporaneous reviews that I read saw it at the time Interesting. Okay. So, um, there was one from the, I want to say there was one from the Washington post and there was one other that was contemporaneous that was like, yeah, this is what. Who thought this was a good idea? So I don't know, I mean for sure that's the way our family felt about it, right? Or or it wouldn't have been in the heavy rotation that it was.
Speaker 2:We watched it a lot A lot I mean that's.
Speaker 1:that's why this one, and not Brewster's Millions, was the first on the list for me of a Richard Pryor which, by the way, we should do because I think your money is now. I want to see Brewster's Millions with you. Anyway, yeah, yeah. So I think you're right and also I think some people did know better, not just one or two, it wasn't just Angelais who knew better at the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah and and richard prior theoretically would have been one of them. Yeah, considering just how, how savvy he was, um, and like that's, that sounds really condescending. I don't mean it that way. I I mean, um, just, his comedy was not just I'm here trying to make people laugh. His comedy had a, had had an edge to it, had a point to it.
Speaker 1:He was a sophisticated thinker.
Speaker 2:Yes, he was very much a sophisticated thinker. Yeah, um, now the the thing is like to be fair to our family. What I came away from, what this movie gave me, was a a sense that Richard Pryor's Jack was right. Yeah, that he had. He was the moral center of the film. He was trying to get by in an ugly situation, and that's at every point. He was trying to get by in an ugly situation, um, and that at every point. He was trying to do the right thing, agreed, um, and so. So like I can see why that would be what, why, dad, let us see it yeah, yeah, I also.
Speaker 1:So I learned about piranha from this film. I also learned about the KKK from this film. That's true, me too, and my recollection is that our family was like they're the worst. They're the worst of the worst. You know so, you know I.
Speaker 2:You know, the other thing about it is. So I had a sense of them as being an object of ridicule because of this Yep, and that is actually Not a bad. I had a sense of them as being an object of ridicule because of this Yep, and that is actually Not a bad thing. Not a bad thing. And part of how this pop culture helped release the KKK's hold on America was through the first Superman TV show, where they made the KKK an object of ridicule and so, like when you start thinking about like Grand Dragon and Grand Wizard, instead of it being like something to be terrified of, it's just like look at these idiots and that is actually.
Speaker 2:And I've read sometime in the past 10 years or so. I've read about how productive that is as a way of dealing with fascism. Um is like pointing out the silliness, the, the ridiculousness of it. Um and I I'm sure that our parents hadn't thought through that, yeah, yeah, I also think that that, because I do also remember like asking dad about why mel brooks would do comedy about hitler and um and dad saying like well, that's, that's a way to to um kind of take power back, so like they may not have recognized like the broader context of it. But I think dad did know that making the KKK an object of ridicule and letting us see it it's not a bad thing. But our parents didn't they? They were not sophisticated Thinkers about race Thinkers about race Thinkers about race.
Speaker 1:Agreed, yeah, agreed, yeah. So that's the sort of the biggest thing that I came back with Some of the smaller things that I wanted to actually kind of name. Like the film opens, jack is playing poker with a bunch of folks like in the neighborhood and, um, they're just shooting the shit and like playing poker and their stakes are like food stamps and like coupons and stuff and the conversation that they have there is it just feels real Like they're teasing each other and they're like joking about stuff. And I actually like really appreciated like that opening scene of like it's sort of the ordinary world if it's Joseph Campbell's thing, but the way that we open on him, just kind of like shooting the breeze with these friends and neighbors.
Speaker 1:That just felt like in the way that you talked about Goonies, where we saw the kids talk, the way kids actually talk, not the way grownups script kids. That's what this poker game felt like and I it just, I just liked it. It just felt like refreshing in a in an interesting way, like to just it felt like I was having a glimpse into somebody's actual life, not like a curated one, which was cool. So I I don't have anything more to say about that. I just want to name that. Maybe that's a thing that Richard Donner saw as a director, since he was also the Goonies guy.
Speaker 2:That's a good point. You know, like there are different directors, have different skills, and one of the things like and I don't, I know the name but I don't know, I couldn't list his movies off the top of my head, like once you tell't I know the name but I don't know, I couldn't list his movies off the top of my head, like once you tell me I'll be like, oh yeah, that's him.
Speaker 1:But that's. He did one of the Superman movies. I think too Lethal.
Speaker 2:Weapon, the Goonies, superman 2, superman the first one, the Omen, no kidding. So I wonder if one of his skills is either in directing or choosing projects that give you a glimpse into real life? Yeah, because that's the sort of thing that you're right you often get. It's a curated scripted like this is what we think people sound like. This is what we think kids sound like.
Speaker 1:And the rest of the movie doesn't have that. Well, there are moments. There actually are moments, because there's the moment when they interview the woman who was the head of the cleaning ladies. They're sitting around a table and she's sort of chatting, but that still is a little bit more curated because we need the snippets of what she wants to say that we need for the storyline, the opening scene. There's nothing that's moving the story forward, it's just sort of setting the stage, the context setting, and so it is like it just feels more whole in its own as opposed to serving anything, cause the only thing it serves is to introduce us to, to Jack. So, anyway, so that that was something that I wanted to, um, just quickly note, because it really, as I pressed, play it like, really stuck out to me. And the other another thing is I want to talk briefly about, um, uh, gender in this. I am the truth construction.
Speaker 1:So fancy, who you remember with the propellers, like she is a trophy wife, I mean, that's just all she is. She's like bubbly blonde and she, she tells the story of how they met. She was working in the CD bar and that's the propellers thing. She had propellers on her boobs and you know she says something like you know, he, he picked me up and he brought me here and he got me new hair and he got me new boobs.
Speaker 1:And you know it got you know like he made her who she is now and then, which leads to a very funny moment when Eric says fancy, what did your boobs look like before? But, um, but in that whole conversation where she gets kind of a lot of screen time and lines, she says he was coming back from I don't remember, maybe Oklahoma city or something, where his ex is in a loony bin and us says it doesn't matter what I was doing. So she says, well, it matters because I could end up there or something along those lines. She expresses fear that she will also end up in the. And is this Eric's mother? No, I don't think so.
Speaker 2:So is Eric's mother dead.
Speaker 1:They don't ever name her. I don't believe that she's dead, but I don't know. But they don't ever talk about her. So he's, he's come from the military academy where he is, you know, boarding school, but he says something like it's the U? S, says something like it's my week, which doesn't the dialogue doesn't sound like he's home I'm putting quotes around that word but rather that he's visiting, but I they never say explicitly so I couldn't, I don't know. Okay, I don't know.
Speaker 1:But the impression I she said his last wife, okay, she didn't say like your mom or eric's mom or anything so which are not mutually exclusive, but Eric's sitting there. So yeah, like within the universe of the toy I do not believe it was meant to be Eric's mom that they were talking might put her in a mental institution and and presumably, you know, upgrade to an even younger model that he can give even bigger boobs, like it kind of goes without comment. You know, it's not like it's not the central thing, it's just like additional evidence that this guy gets what he wants. But it stuck out to me, you know, as I was watching it this time and I think that you know the actress. She does a good job, like the character is fun and funny and like, uh, you know, and a caricature, but you know, like that's kind of what you expect yeah, um, this is not a movie you go for depth and nuance in the characters.
Speaker 1:yeah, right, um, and, and there's, you know, certainly, like they were self-consciously they thought they were making specific statements about race. I don't think they self-consciously were making statements about gender, and yet there they were in the ways that this powerful man uses his power over women as well. So that was another thing that I wanted to sort of like articulate.
Speaker 2:So my spouse and I were recording this the week after Thanksgiving we just came back from. We were in Asheville, north Carolina, visiting my in-laws for Thanksgiving. And one of the things there is a serious problem with homelessness in Asheville and the it's a blue dot in a red state and there are a lot of homeless shelters with vacancies, not because there aren't enough people to fill them, but because the shelters require residents to stay on their meds and do the things that need to be done. And many, many, many of these folks have mental illness issues with that kind of problem. And so it got me and my spouse talking about how to handle that, because it was in the like about the 80s when the psychiatric institutions were forced to release people rather than have involuntary holds. And you know it's it's one problem for another, and so my husband and I were we're on two sides of this Cause. He's like you know. I feel like it would be, you know, less bad if we were able to help people this way, you know, and and like they're, they have to be in this, this institution, and take their medication, and I understand where he's coming from and how that that would be like in some ways safer.
Speaker 2:But on the other hand I kept saying to him I was like, but women so often were institutionalized against their will because they pissed off a man in their life, because they were quote, unquote, uppity. And I asked him, like, have you read the Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman? And he's like, no, I'm not familiar with it. She was not institutionalized but, gilman, she was forced on bed rest, which basically meant she was not allowed to do anything. She was stuck in a room, could go outside for like a half hour a day. Anything she was stuck in a room could go outside for like a half hour a day. And because anything that could trigger her hysteria, including writing or painting or visiting friends or anything like that, was too inciting of any kind of humors, and so she went a little bit nuts because she was you think she went a little bit nuts because she was. You think, yeah, um, and so I am very cognizant of the imbalance of power when you know, bitches, be crazy is just a given in our world.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so did not expect that to come up in the toy. But you know, fancy having that concern is not unfounded.
Speaker 1:No, well, his ex is in one. Yeah, I mean, yeah, no, she's, she's, it's real, it's real, and at one point and she she's, she plays, I mean she's supposed to be like this dizzy blonde, but she's savvy enough to understand what she is. To me, it's clear she's playing the part. This is the part she's expected to play, and so she's playing it and it's working for her. I mean, she's living in a mansion.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean that's, and so that means she's in a similar situation as Jack. Yes, yes, it does. Capitalism is that you are stuck playing a part to survive or thrive, but you know that it can be taken away from you at any time, and you might have to take your pants down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and actually that scene, that's exactly it. So the scene where you learn the word litigious Jack comes in to apply for the cleaning lady job and the job is for a lady. It's explicit that they're looking for a woman and so he's talking to Ned Beatty who is saying you're overqualified for this job. You're a journalist. This is a cleaning lady job and also lady, and so he's kind of leaving but he sort of passive, aggressively, threatens to sue. That's where you remember the litigious, threatens to sue. That's where you remember the litigious. And Beatty says to him is it really that bad out there? And Jack, richard Pryor, says it's worse.
Speaker 1:And then you know, fast forward, whatever like 65, 75 minutes. And there's the scene with him, with, um, ned Beatty's Morehouse being forced to take his pants down and standing there with his boxer shorts, uh and as so now he's pulled his pants back out and jack is leaving that pants back up and jack is leaving the room and he stops and they they talk for a minute and jack says now to mrhouse is it really that bad out there? And Mr Morehouse says it's worse. So I think that the characters say what you just said, which is, you know, it's another one of those give with one hand and take with the other. Right, because I feel like we're given this just absolute, like indictment of this world in which we live, but we're also given a happy ending where the perpetrator of this oppression, the perpetrator of this indignity and, you know, harm gets a warm, sappy ending with his son. He gets redeemed without actually having done any work yeah so because he really doesn't.
Speaker 1:I mean, like the work he does, is that like Pryor's? Like no, you got to talk to him here. I'm with him and we'll do some role play. I'm him, you're you, hey dad, come on dad. And then Richard Pryor like sits on Jackie Gleason's lap, and then there's a like a joke, that fancy walks in and says you ass, you kinky bastard, or something like that. You know, but he doesn't actually do any work, he's embarrassed. That's the work he does, he's embarrassed.
Speaker 2:You know, this kind of goes along with what I was thinking about, what I mentioned earlier about how it was the colorblind and non-racist rather than anti-racist, colorblind and non-racist rather than anti-racist. There's, whenever there's a push forward and like a progressive push forward, there's always like a backlash, and I think one of the backlashes that we experienced as kids that, um, like we didn't know at the time was that we were fed this idea that rights were granted by well-meaning white people to black folks in the same way that rights were granted to women by well-meaning men.
Speaker 2:Because I did not have the sense that, like you know, no, you stand up and scream until you're hoarse and make a nuisance of yourself and you grab your rights. I did not get that sense at all when I was growing up, to the point where it surprised me to learn that Rosa Parks had Training, training. I thought like we were told this story of like she was tired and didn't want to take it anymore, so like there is nothing you can do unless that moment is thrust on you Until the inspiration strikes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was definitely the story we were given. And so and this movie is like reiterating that I mean it's like both right, because Jack certainly takes action, very much so repeatedly. You know the newspaper, the party like he takes action, but still within the script it is us coming to. His own kind of decision is what is successful.
Speaker 2:And in the days since the election this year, that's kind of what we're seeing, where we see people like why are you letting politics get in the way of our relationship? Are like why are you letting politics get in the way of our relationship? And it's that same sort of thing, Like if you're just nice to the people who are oppressing you, they'll stop oppressing you.
Speaker 1:That's exactly that. So thank you for saying it that way, because that is exactly. Except that Jack wasn't nice to you Es Well, but when he's saying but he was nice to Eric.
Speaker 2:He't nice to us Well, but when he's but he was nice to Eric, he wasn't Eric. And then when, jack, when, when uh us is like I don't know how to, how to be a father to my son, he does coach him, that's true. Let's try to help him. Then, yes, you're right, yes, so like he sees, like he sees a man in need, and he helps him, even though this man is awful, awful.
Speaker 1:So awful. So US actually says to Jack when he first meets him I want him to know that having money means never having to say you're sorry, like Jackie Gleason says that explicitly. So you know we're meant to like. So there's, there's certainly like an indictment, but then he's given, he's given the redemption arc without, as I say, without actually paying consequences, not really.
Speaker 2:So so anyway, we are meant to empathize with Jackie Gleason's character in some way, eventually, eventually, and I think some of that has to do with the very American sense of like. We're not poor, we're temporarily embarrassed millionaires. Mm-hmm embarrassed millionaires, because part of seeing these, this, this film and many other pieces of pop culture is I. I want to.
Speaker 2:I want to see how the other half lives and I want I, and someday that'll be me Like I'll be the one with the piranhas keeping the hoi polloi out, and so I think there's some of that and that's a very American sensibility. I'm not saying that it's not, it doesn't happen elsewhere, but there's something particular about the way that Americans look at money, at wealth, at wealth as morality and all of that, and the happy ending for Jack is having enough money. So even though it's an indictment of capitalism, it's also a celebration of it in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah of it in a lot of ways, yeah. And then the other aspect that I think this is bringing up for me is we talked during the Jaws episode about how I thought that I was understanding. I had a nuanced understanding of people because I was like no one's all bad. I was patting myself on the back because like oh, that's ridiculous that someone would behave that way. And so and I can trace that back to things like this because, you know, jackie Gleason's character is the villain in this movie, but we're, we're given to see that, you know, he really does love his son and just doesn't know how to, and so no one's all bad.
Speaker 2:And so it's this like it's a. You know, I don't see race and I'm not like other girls. It's the kumbaya, like we can all get together and just be together. And I thought that that was a more mature way of looking at the world, because that's what I was told as a child, and I thought it was naive to assume that anyone is just an asshole through and through. But some people are assholes through and through.
Speaker 1:I mean, I believe that everyone has the capacity to make changes and also they don't do it unless they're forced. Yeah Right, gain is not going to be like. It's not going to like. Set that aside because Richard Pryor was nice to his kid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that's that's the thing that I I to this day. I'm still struggling with um a little bit in in the in the wake of the 2024 election yeah, um is election is that there is no appealing to decency for some people, and in some ways, it's a relief to let go of that idea that I can appeal to the decency of any people because, as I described it, I feel like I've been pushing against the locked door for 45 years and I can finally stop. But where did that idea come from? Why do I have that in my head? Because of movies like this. Everyone has a core of decency and as long as you ask the right way, treat their kid the right way, piss them off the right way you know, piss them off the right way you can unlock it Not too much, not too little.
Speaker 2:You can unlock that core of decency, and that's just not true.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, like I agree with you, I think that every human being has a capacity for change, has a capacity for decency and goodness and kindness, but many of them have thrown that over. They just don't, they don't have any interest in accessing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm going to try and synthesize what we talked about with this film, so you'll have to help me out a bit. Oh, I didn't name it. Does not pass the bechdel test. Uh, I'm not surprised. There are more than there. There are at least two named female characters, but they don't speak to each other.
Speaker 1:Um, okay, so 1982, the toy starring richard pryor and jackie gleason, and this film is both better in terms of race than I expected and also way worse, and I was expecting it to be pretty bad. So in the ways it's better, like I believe that Jack Brown has like full agency and is given some dignity and is just delightful, like, not like he makes me laugh, not as the butt of the joke. I guess that's the way it was better. Richard Pryor is not the butt of the joke. The way it's worse is the ways in which it sort of reified white supremacy, the way it sort of was a fractal of itself, so that what was happening to Jack, where people were like, well, how much money would it take for you to be a toy was happening to Richard Pryor with this movie, because I think this movie was how much money would it take for you to be a toy. That's the impression that I get. The way it's worse is the way that like, yeah, it's an indictment of the Klan and of racism, but the real harm that even within this film, the villain does and a huge dilution of the harm that the Klan and white supremacy do in the real world, and so it's just a watered down version and so the indictment doesn't take. It's not as strong an indictment when it's just like a puppet version of the truly heinousous, villainous behavior that happens in the real world.
Speaker 1:We spent some time talking about gender and about this character of fancy baits who is in many ways in a similar position to Jack, insofar as she is there at the discretion, at the whim of Mr Bates, to be his plaything to a certain extent, um, and you know she's decided it's better than what she had previously and she knows what risks she has taken because she knows about the ex wife who's in a mental institution and is afraid that that may be where she will end up, which is very real. And you brought in like that reality, like just broader in the society, especially traditionally to women who, like the author of the yellow wallpaper, was forced to like just not do anything because the men in her life didn't like the way she behaved. You talked well, we both talked about the ways in which this film sort of was a stutter step forward in the eighties, as not racist, even though it really isn't anti-racist, and also about the you identified as like distinctly American although this was written by a French dude but the American kind of reverence for wealth that this plays into, for wealth that this plays into. So, though this exceedingly wealthy man is the villain, of course he has a redemptive arc, because we all want to be super rich and we don't want to believe that super rich people are villainous. And that piece, like it's, it's a, it's about the richness, but it's also about, ultimately, this ideology, this core thesis, which has been disproven again and again, that people are inherently good. Good and even people who act like assholes. If you can just approach them the right way and show them the right kind of kindness, you can unlock their decency and they will behave better.
Speaker 1:Well, um, and and this film, like, really buys into that what am I forgetting about what we spoke about?
Speaker 1:uh, the sense that um like this also, it's related to that, but the sense that um people don't agitate for their own rights, they are given them by a benevolent white person right that that that false idea, yeah, of of how change happens is reified by this, but by this film, the idea that, um, the powerful give up power because they're good people rather than because they're forced to.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, one last thing that I named, that we spoke a little bit about Richard Donner as an, as a director, and wondered if sort of that, the from the very opening scene of this film and from some of the scenes in goodies that Donner also directed, sort of the sense of like a window into something, not curated conversation, but just authentic somehow, which is really silly to say about a film. But but that that, the way that Donner is conveyed that in in a, in those two films that we just talked about consecutively, we did name that as well as something that we we don't always see. Whew, this was, um, yeah, I have to say that as I was like partway into the movie, I was like, why did I put this on the list right now? Why did I do this? Why did I do this? But but I also, like I remember it so fondly, it was in such heavy rotation, like I, we, I can remember being at grandma's house and watching it with Chris, like the three of us sitting there watching it.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I also with things like this. I find it opens up the ability to have conversations with dad in my head. Yeah, like if you were here to watch it again with us and be like what were you thinking at the time? And you know, do you have any regrets about letting us watch this? And like that's one thing I think I told you after I saw Nope in the theater.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember I all I wanted to do was talk to dad about it and I ended up writing a letter to Jordan Peele saying, like you gave me an afternoon with my father after he'd been gone for years, and so like, and that's part of why I feel like we're doing this, because my spouse has told me like you know, it's kind of sometimes feel bad when you know you critique these movies that I love and like I get that. But I also just want to have a conversation. I want to have a conversation with the culture and with my father and with, like, my past, and you know my own beliefs and you know my kids. You know whether or not they're actually here with me to have this conversation about, like, why is this art the way that it is? Yeah, yeah. What? What made this acceptable in 1982? Um, and why is it not acceptable anymore? Yeah, um. Are there things that we can take from it that are good, even though the the movie itself is kind of a problem?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, uh, all right. Well, there is one commentator that I thought did a really interesting analysis, which I will share. They're the person who really helped me to see the fractal nature, so I'll share that in the show notes. I will see you next week.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Next time my dear friend Erica Plank Hagen will be joining us to talk about Muppet Christmas Carol.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's right, Right in time for Christmas. I can't wait, yep. All right, see you then, bye-bye. Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy. But don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?