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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about Planes, Trains and Automobiles
Those aren’t two pillows…
Just in time for Thanksgiving, Emily finally watches one of the most beloved buddy comedies of the 1980s: Planes, Trains & Automobiles this week. After intentionally skipping this film when it was first released (because it appeared to feature gross-out and cringe humor), Emily is surprised and delighted to find the John Candy and Steve Martin comedy offers a nuanced look at how to see past our class-based differences. While John Hughes’ script provides a lot of the movie’s warm heart, it’s Candy’s performance that makes this film more than just a series of silly hijinks. Candy brings an impressive level of emotion and pathos to his larger-than-life character of Del Griffith. And though the film trades in some period typical fatphobia as part of its visual storytelling, viewers are ultimately given a clear sense of Del’s dignity and grief along with the belly laughs.
It’s two days to Thanksgiving, making it the perfect time to throw your headphones and listen–even if your flight gets rerouted to Wichita!
CW: Fatphobia
Mentioned in this episode
Roger Ebert’s 2000 retrospective review
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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I think of grief as like a desiccant, in that it squeezes all the water out, and so you become the most concentrated version of yourself.
Speaker 2:What others might deem stupid shit. You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. We're sisters, Tracy and Emily, collectively known as the Guy Girls. Every week, we take turns re-watching, researching and reconsidering beloved media and sharing what we learn. Come overthink with us and if you get value from the show, please consider supporting us. You can become a patron on Patreon or send us a one-time tip through Ko-fi. Both links are in the show notes and thanks.
Speaker 1:I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I will be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1987 film Planes, Trains and Automobiles with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, and with you, let's dive in. So, Trace, tell me what you know or remember about planes, trains and automobiles.
Speaker 2:The truth is very little. Like I have a clear image of the poster in my head with John Candy and Steve Martin, like one of them, like leaning on the other one's shoulder, I think, and beyond that, like I'm kind of tabula rasa, though, though I know I've seen it, but maybe not since 1987, when I was 11. So, yeah, I don't know. So, anyway, blank Slate, which is cool, I guess, but why are we talking about it?
Speaker 1:So there's two reasons why we're talking about it. So there's two reasons why we're talking about it. I actually had never seen it until I watched it for this episode.
Speaker 2:Oh, so I must have seen it without you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, then I probably didn't see it in 1987, if that's the case, and I have always considered it a bit of a hole in my pop culture knowledge. I know part of the reason why I never saw it was because I am very easily embarrassed on character's behalf, and that's the kind of humor it is.
Speaker 2:It's secondhand embarrassment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's cringe humor. Yeah, Ouch. And part of this was like I was really curious, considering it is so beloved, and I do really love Steve Martin and I think John Candy was a phenomenal talent, so that was part of it, and then part of it I was trying to think of what Thanksgiving movies are there, and there's very few.
Speaker 2:There just aren't very many. There just aren't very, very many, so that seems such a surprise to me. Yeah, um, wasn't there one called like home for the holidays? I?
Speaker 1:think that was christmas oh, I bet it was um, and so there's there's this, and then there's um adam's family values, which is not actually said at thanks but has a Thanksgiving play, right, right.
Speaker 1:So that that's why we're doing it right now. And, honestly, I was kind of blown away by this movie in a way that I was not entirely expecting, especially since I basically knew what the movie was and the thing, the parts that blew me away I had was already familiar with. Oh, interesting, um, which I think just goes to show again what talents we have in Steve Martin and John Candy. Um, and then also, this is a John Hughes film which I don't think I realized. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:And John Hughes was so influential in, you know, my pop culture, education and and just you know, in the eighties and nineties, that it kind of once I realized, oh, this is John Hughes, and in a lot of ways it fits in the realm of John Hughes, that it's. It's funny, it jibes with his other work. So I'm actually really kind of excited to share with you about this one. I was kind of a tabula rasa as well. Well, not kind of, I was completely tabula rasa. I was kind of a tabula rasa as well. Well, not kind of, I was completely tabula rasa. I mean, I was aware of aspects of the film but hadn't seen it.
Speaker 2:So I, and there is something very emotional and compelling about this film that I wasn't entirely expecting, huh, okay, cool. So catch me up, because I don't remember and I'm realizing as we're talking that I think maybe I'm like mixing this up with throw mama from the train, which is a totally different, completely different film. Got the word train in the title Train, which is a totally different film. Got the word train in the title, though, which I think is why I'm doing that. But so anyway, catch me up. What happens in this film?
Speaker 1:So I'm going to give a very basic framework of what happens, because this is really. It's just hijinks. Okay, so at the beginning of the film we meet Steve Martin's Neil Page. He is some sort of marketing executive or something. He is in New York City. It is the Tuesday before Thanksgiving we're told that and he is staring at his watch in the middle of this very long meeting where nothing is happening. In the middle of this very long meeting where nothing is happening, because he needs to catch a plane back home to Chicago to make sure that he's home in time for Thanksgiving and he promised his wife he'd be home by 9 pm that night. So the two days before Thanksgiving we then meet John Candy's Del Griffith, who we learn is a curtain ring salesman, traveling curtain ring Excuse me, shower. Curtain ring salesman.
Speaker 2:Okay, they were just going for absurd, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yes, for absurd, I guess. Yes and uh, there are a number of they. They first encounter each other when dell, without realizing it, takes the cab that neil has, has um gotten and neil runs after him and like, opens the door and is like yelling at him, um, and dell looks absolutely terrified and devastated. They turns out they are on the same plane out of LaGuardia to Chicago and they are sitting. When Neil gets to the airport, the plane is delayed because there's a snowstorm in Chicago, and so they see each other at the gate and Del, they talk and Neil explains like you stole my cab and Del hadn't realized and he's like, oh, my goodness, I'm so sorry. Can I buy a hot dog and a beer or some coffee?
Speaker 1:Once on the plane, neil's seat assignment has been changed from first class to coach and he is seated next to Del. Because of the snowstorm in Chicago, the plane is rerouted to Wichita, kansas. In Wichita, dell, who seems to travel a lot more than Neil, says like you're not going to be able to get a hotel, there's not going to be any flights out tonight. I already called someone, a buddy of mine. I sold him shower curtain rings. He'll be able to get you a room. So they end up going together to this very cheap motel and it turns out there's only one room left and there's only one bed trope I was just going to say that, okay.
Speaker 1:I was just gonna say that. Okay, it's very different from what you see in fan fiction. So they end up, um, spending the night together. Del is like very much of a slob. He turned on the magic fingers and like he had some beer on the bed and the uh, um, it shook the beer until the point where it exploded and like, got beer all over Neil's side. Once they're in bed, del is clearing his throat and trying to clear his sinuses. It's really gross and Neil has been just fuming this entire time. He finds him so annoying and he finally gets out of bed and starts shouting at Del and it starts off funny. But the longer it it goes on, it becomes crueler and crueler. And john candy's performance is amazing because, like you see just the, the, his indignation, resignation, hurt in his eyes. And then, once Neil is done, del says to him like you want to make fun of me, go right ahead. I know I can be ridiculous, I know I talk a lot, but I like me, my wife likes me, I'm comfortable with who I am, so go right ahead, take your shots, if that's what's going to make you feel better. And you know, spend the night in the, in the lobby, whatever. And then he goes back to bed and Neil, very ashamed of himself, goes back to bed as well. They wake up snuggled up together and then immediately, like, jump out of bed and like how about them bears Right, which is one of the the moments I want to talk to you about.
Speaker 1:While they were sleeping, a thief broke into their room and stole all the money out of their wallets. Oh no. So dell says you're not, there's not gonna be a flight out of wichita to chicago because of, like, so much traveling and all of that, let's go by train. They end up getting to the train, neil, basically he buys tickets for both of them because neither of them have any cash. But Neil has credit cards, del does not, so he buys them both tickets. He claims that they couldn't get two seats together and then, like, they separate there.
Speaker 1:The train breaks down in Jefferson City, missouri, in the middle of a field, and so they have to walk to a, like the next place, the next town where he and Del end up taking a bus. Del got the bus tickets and then he says just so you know, they're only to St Louis, because that's as far as he like, I don't know if he couldn't afford the next spot. So they end up in St Louis where, dell, you see him at work selling these selling his samples of the shower curtain rings, claiming that they're jewelry from China, that they're like. Just see him at work selling these selling his samples of the shower curtain rings, claiming that they're jewelry from China, that they're like, just sort of conning people, but at the same time, like it's also just like, come with me on this, fun, fun and and like you know. And he's selling them for like $5 and like and it's not a, not a whole lot of money, although $5.87 was different. So he ends up getting $100 in cash by doing that. And they go to get something to eat.
Speaker 1:At that point, neil says look, we put our heads together and we've gotten nowhere. I think we'll be better off separating. And this is the point at which they. Also. Neil talks about how he travels too much. He misses his family. He's got a wife and three young kids, um, and he's and he's talking about how he cause it's the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. He missed his daughter's Thanksgiving pageant, um, and he's really sad about having missed that Um. And Dell says something about like uh, yeah, I haven't been home in years. And uh, neil, yeah, I haven't been home in years. And Neil goes I haven't been home in years. What are you talking about? He's like oh, it's just a figure speech, I'm just on the road, so much. So Del is clearly hurt that Neil wants to separate, but he agrees to it.
Speaker 1:Neil goes to they're at the St Louis airport at this point. He goes to rent a car and it's one of those where the rental desk is in the airport and then you take a bus all the way over to get the car. The bus drops him off, says yeah, you want to space, whatever, it's going to be White Lincoln Continental, and he gets the space and there's no car there and the bus is gone. So he has to walk three miles back to the airport. And it's like airport, so it's like on highways and berms and stuff like that. And um, um, he gets there and has an epic meltdown and this is the reason the movie is rated R. It's a 60 second long meltdown. He uses the F word 19 times In a minute, in a minute.
Speaker 2:This is why Gen X curses so much.
Speaker 1:And actually, apparently, this scene is why Steve Martin took the role and uh, the um, the agent at the counter who's played by Edie McClurg, who was the um secretary, and Ferris Bueller oh yeah, he's a real righteous dude. Yeah, um, she, she's already like I'm not appreciating how you're talking to me, sir, and he's he's like just really unleashing on her Um. And then she's already like I'm not appreciating how you're talking to me, sir, and he's he's like just really unleashing on her Um. And then she's like fine, may I see your rental agreement? And he goes, I threw it away. And she goes, you're fucked In her Lily McClurg voice, in her little e mcclern voice. So we see, dell goes, goes, uh, out to the um arrivals area where there's taxis, and he's like I'm trying to get a taxi to, to, uh, chicago, and the the, the guy who's wrangling them, is like you know, a plane will be faster. They're in St Louis, they're in St Louis, okay.
Speaker 1:And so Neil is like just, he's still so frustrated and he unleashes on this guy who hits him. Neil falls onto the road and is nearly run over, but the car stops just in time and it's Del in his rental car. So Neil ends up joining Dell in the rental car. There is more like chatting and stuff like that, back and forth. They, they take turns driving and while Dell is driving, neil goes to sleep. He says I'm putting my wallet in the in the glove box, let me forget. Neil goes to sleep and Del is smoking a cigarette and like just jamming to Messin' Around by Ray Charles, which I'm like Del has excellent taste in music. This is well worth jamming to, but he's like air saxophone and air piano and like with his eyes closed with a cigarette in his hand and like driving all over the highway.
Speaker 1:Song ends, he flicks the cigarette out and it doesn't go out the window, it comes right back in and lands in the back seat. And then he realizes by all of his dancing he's gotten his parka stuck on like gears in the car and he's trying to take the parka off and then his arms get stuck and, long story short, he ends up like going down an exit and like barely controlling the car, okay. And which wakes Neil up and Del says, oh, we almost hit a deer. Okay, and which wakes Neil up and Del says, oh, we almost hit a deer. So Del turns around and because he's so distracted by everything that's happened he doesn't realize he goes back down the exit he came up.
Speaker 1:So he is now going the wrong way on the highway. Okay, and it's empty. There is a car going the correct direction, so going the same way as they are. That is like pacing with them window down, like you're going the wrong way, and Dell's like you don't know where I'm going, how do you know this is the wrong way? And then there's Is he in reverse?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, he's, so they're on the other side of the highway yeah and so they're going, oh, and so the guy's on the other side of median or the other side, like a divider, yeah, or a divider.
Speaker 1:I see, I see, I see, okay um, and so, as they're, they're driving, like, suddenly we see there's two semi trucks coming straight for them and they're in the middle of the road and they both scream.
Speaker 1:And there's this very weird moment where, like, neil and dell are both like skeletons and like I don't know if this is what's going through neil's head. They're both skeletons and then they're both themselves again, and then neil looks over and dell is dressed as a devil and like laughing. They go through like in between the two semis and it like rubs the sides of the car. But the car is okay and they end up turning around. Del has this giant trunk that jumps off, the like, falls off the the back of the car with all of this, and so they get out, they're like bringing the stuff back to the side of the road, and they are sitting on the trunk with their back to the car when suddenly there's like it's bright on their backs and they turn around and the car is completely on fire because of the cigarette and at first neil is like giddy, he's like you've done it to yourself this time.
Speaker 1:Um, and then turns out that dell used neil's credit card to rent the car because you have to have a credit card. Their credit cards were accidentally switched, like the audience saw that at the motel, and Neil's like you stole from me, and Dell's like no, I didn't, I didn't even think about it, I didn't realize it was there until I was going to rent the car, and then I realized I couldn't rent a car without a credit card and I had your credit card. And so, because he has a like it's a discount card that looks the same, and he's like, well, then I want it back. He's like, well, I can't do that. He's like why not? It's like because I snuck it back into your wallet when, uh, um, when we were which was in the glove box station.
Speaker 1:Yeah oh, my god, so it's night. By this point, they uh, they get the uh, the wreck of the car which still drives to a motel. They get in and the guide them and this point, it's, it's air of thanks.
Speaker 2:It's Wednesday night before. Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1:So they get in, the clerk at the motel says I'm going to need a major credit card. And so he opens his wallet and is like, well, I've got Visa, it's a chunk of plastic. I've got Diners Club and it's a chunk of plastic. And he's like, well, it's going to be $40. He said I'll pay cash. He's like, uh, and he's like, well, it's going to be 40. He said I'll pay cash. He's like, all right, it's $42 and 50 cents. And he's like he had all the cash he has because everything else was stolen.
Speaker 1:So, whatever, like the thief didn't get. He's like, how about $17? He's like I don't own this place, I can't do that. And so Neil says like you bought a very nice watch, $17 and very nice watch, 17 and very nice watch. And so he gives that and the guy gives him a room.
Speaker 1:So neil goes to get, goes to the room, like just completely ignoring dell. And then dell comes up. He's like, well, I'd also like room. He's like, do you also have 17 and a very nice watch? And he's like, uh, well, no. And so like he like kind of goes through his pockets. He's like, what about two dollars in a casio? The guy's like, nope.
Speaker 1:So dell um goes to spend the night in the wreck of the car. That is like completely open to the, to the elements, and yeah, and he's kind of like talking to himself about like you know, I always do this. I'm like I'm too much. You know, you've always said that, marie, and that's his wife's name, like you know. And here's someone whose company I really enjoy and I've driven him away. And we see Neil come up and like, look out the window, his room has two, two single beds, like two twin size beds. And so he goes out and says you're going to freeze out there, come on in. And so they end up sharing, uh, dell has a collection of, like um, airline sized, uh, alcohol, and so they ended up sharing that and like snacks and and just chatting about like work and life.
Speaker 1:And Neil says to Dell, like well, at the very least you've got, you've got a woman that you love, that you can grow old with, and he says you do love her, right? And Dell says love isn't a big enough word. They go to sleep the next morning they end up accidentally crashing the car into the side of the motel and destroying something, and then, like Neil's like just go, go, go, pull out, so like, and they don't have a credit card. So whoops, they're then pulled over by a uh state trooper in, I believe, in illinois. I think they've, they've gotten, they've gotten to illinois.
Speaker 1:At this point it is a hilarious scene where he's like, do you have any idea how fast you're going? And Del's driving. He's like, well, I can't say with any accuracy because you see the gauges have melted, including the speedometer. So the police impound the car and Del finds a semi-truck driver and this is Thanksgiving morning finds a semi-truck driver who is heading north. He's in a semi-truck that's for Ashkenagin, like as an Oshkosh, not Ashkenazi Ashkenagin dairy, which I'm like. That really sounds like it could be a Wisconsin dairy. It is not, but you can buy Ashkenaginari uh shirts. You looked it up, we looked it up, yeah, but the uh the driver doesn't want them in the cab with them, so they're in the back, in the refrigerated part, with the cheese.
Speaker 2:Do they smell bad or something? Why doesn't he want?
Speaker 1:them he's. All dell says is like he's a little bit freaky about who who shares his cab with him, like we don't really get a reason for it. It's this is kind of all right. Yeah, just like a final indignity.
Speaker 1:We just need a reason yeah because it's just because reasons, because reasons, and then it's also um, like, early on, one of the one of the setups was um ne his gloves in the office and he had a friend who's also from Chicago, who was taking a later plane. He's like I don't have time to go get my gloves. Do you mind grabbing them and I'll get them back from you in Chicago. It's not like I'm going to need them. I'm going to be in the cab and then in the airport and then I'm home.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's part of it too is like he's been cold this whole time. So they get to Chicago, they're at an L station and Neil says to Del like well, you promised me you'd get me home because he did and you did it and I appreciate it, and this is your very unique individual. And like it was a warm goodbye but no sense of how to get in touch with each other again or anything like that. Neil shakes dell's hand and gets on the gets on the train and as he's riding off, he's thinking back over like the past um two and a half days, thinking about like some of the strange things that dell had said that don't really add up. And so he takes the train back and finds Del just in the waiting area of the L train station and he says what are you doing here? Aren't you supposed to go home? And Del says I don't have a home. Marie died eight years ago. And Neil brings Del home with him, introduces him to his parents and in-laws, his wife and his three kids, as like this is my good friend Dell, and that's where the film ends, with Dell smiling at the family.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I want to start with what blew me away about this Great. So Del is an outrageous character. He's a slob. He does talk too much. He's annoying him with such dignity and pathos and empathy that it's very easy to forgive his over the top way that he acts. And in fact, when he's talking to himself in the car, he basically and I can't remember if he uses these words, but he basically is like I'm trying too hard and it feels very real and very human.
Speaker 1:Now it's like it's times 11, because it's a movie, right, but Del feels like a real person and he has friends all over the place. So he has that friend at the motel, the um, the taxi that takes him to the motel is like very weird. And the guy takes him scenic route because he wants to show off wichita, because neil's never been there. And dell says like no, it's wonderful that he's proud of his home, like that's very rare these days. And one of the things that he says to Neil when Neil is so cruel to him in the motel is like um, you know, like I try to be kind to people, I try not to hurt people's feelings. Um, and it's really clear that that is who he is and what he's trying to do. Um, and he overcompensates with his big personality, but again it it feels realistic. Um, in a way I wasn't expecting from a like oil and water buddy comedy, right um and I like sort of a hijinks, absurd, farcical.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah um and I I really honestly, was not expecting the level of dignities the only word I can think of like that he carries himself with as this unrepetent slob. You know, you don't think of someone like that as being dignified. Like one of the first things he does on the plane is he takes off his socks and shoes and is like kind of spinning his socks around um, which is like the opposite of dignified and it's supposed to be gross, which is something I'm gonna get into. But it also when we first see dell, when um neil opens the cab and shouts at him, he looks so scared and there's something so sweet and emotional about, about this character like there's.
Speaker 1:You imagine that dell is the same as he was when he was 11 years old and then add in the fact, the reveal that when he says I don't have a home, my assumption is that he just he travels for work and so he just doesn't have a home base anymore. He doesn't, he no longer has the house that wherever he lived with his wife. You know, people say he's homeless. I'm like, no, clearly he's not unhoused in that way, but he doesn't have roots. And so when you learn that he's lost his wife and he doesn't have roots, in that way it also clarifies, like this over the top behavior as well, because it makes it clearer that he's this is someone who is deeply grieving, deeply lonely, and so I think of grief as like a desiccant, in that it squeezes all the water out and so you become the most concentrated version of yourself, and so like this is that clarifies a lot of things about this character.
Speaker 2:Why was he going to Chicago?
Speaker 1:then it's never explained. My expectation, my assumption, is that that was just the next stop on his business travels. It was the next place he was going to be selling I see minor annoyances for Neil throughout is the giant trunk that that Dell is carrying everywhere which, again, like the context, is like oh, he carries everything he owns with him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:And that was like I was not expecting it to be so powerful and I like, I really like, I spent a lot of time thinking about it and I woke up this morning thinking about it again. Like that, that character, um, which in part was John Hughes, like having written this, this, this story and apparently John Hughes wrote the story uh based on there was a point time when he was working in marketing and he was trying to fly home to Chicago and the exact same the thing happened where he flew from. It was supposed to be fly from New York to Chicago. A blizzard had them rerouted to Wichita and it took him five days to get home and he thought that that would make an interesting concept and I was like that is, that is a very interesting concept. And then giving it the ticking time, ticking clock of like wanting to get home in time for this important holiday.
Speaker 1:So some of this is is john hughes's writing, but I think the vast majority of it is john candy. Um, and part of what, why I was thinking about it last night and when I woke up this morning, was the fact that we lost john Candy when he was 43 years old and I was. I didn't realize he was so young. Yeah, yeah, which, again, I didn't, cause he was an adult. I was an early teenager, cause he was about the same age as our parents Born in 1950.
Speaker 1:So that's younger than I am now. So of my, my rumination on this, that that makes it sound negative. Some of my like consistent thinking on this, like coming back to it again and again, is just realizing what a talent we lost and yeah, I don't think of him as a nuanced actor. Yeah, yeah, and this movie I don't think would have worked if we hadn't had that underlying dignity and pathos yeah, if there were no pathos, it would be.
Speaker 2:It would be a from what you've described. It would be unwatchable if dell didn't have pathos and there are.
Speaker 1:There are plenty of comedians who would have played it that broad. And again, like john hughes wrote that speech, that that amazing, wonderful, lovely speech where it's like you want to make fun of me.
Speaker 1:Go ahead, but john candy is the one who made me believe it right so that's, that's something I really want to hold up and say, like there's a reason why this movie is beloved. There's a reason why this movie has has just remained in on people's favorite lists, lists of favorites and that sort of thing. And then I think it's also the other thing that is really fascinating about it is Neil's character arc. The film in a lot of ways is about class, because Neil is clearly very wealthy. I think I texted you yesterday and I was like it is kind of surprising how handsome Steve Martin looks in this, just because I don't think of him that way.
Speaker 1:There's a person on Twitter that I follow. His name is Derek Guy, so like he could be one of our cousins who is an expert in menswear, and so he talks about like what makes menswear work and what doesn't, and he talks about draping and things like that. He'll talk about public figures and what they wear and how there's a tendency right now for very fit men to wear very tight suits and he's like that doesn't actually look good and he'll compare it to looser fitting suits that drape better and it's really fascinating. And I was thinking about that as I was watching, because part of why Steve Martin looked so damn good is because of how well they dressed him, even though it's a late 1980s suit, so it is kind of out of date.
Speaker 2:Right, but it was quality, it was quality, it was quality.
Speaker 1:And probably tailored well, yes and like. Even the out of dateness is like it was classic. It was a classic design even then. So, like there were, probably there were aspects of it that I think they might make different choices now, but someone could wear that suit today and still be like damn suit today and still be like damn, and so so that's an aspect of it and I like, I recognize the clothing aspect of it in part because, because I've been following that, that uh, um, that person on Twitter, but the comparison between, like, the very sharp suit and hat and overcoat that Steve Martin wears and the like kind of mismatched clothing that is like layered, that uh, john Candy wears, and then there's a lot.
Speaker 1:So Neil has a bit of a, a bit of a tantrum when he can't have a first class seat. Yep, when he's on the bus, del says to him have you ever ridden a bus before? He's like no. And there's a point later where Del gets the entire bus singing together. They're having a sing-along and Del says to Neil come, come on, you should, you should start one, and like, to his credit, he, neil, tries, but he starts singing a frank sinatra song I'd never heard of and like, and because it's a nobody knows, it's a comedy like everybody turns and stares at him like, which is not what would happen, it would just be crickets. But, um, so he stops and then dell starts with the meet, the flintstones which everybody sings, sings. So there's these really interesting class markers. That helps us see how snobbish Neil is. He definitely is judging Del because of the aspects of his life that are so different from Neil's, of the aspects of his life that are so different from neil's. Um, and he is in this class where, like, he can pay to avoid annoyances and he is, and finding like the commonality with with Dell and learning the empathy that Dell just has. Again, like that's also really really well done, and Steve Martin is is a phenomenal comic actor and he's the straight man in this. So, like kudos, it's amazing.
Speaker 1:There are some things that I'm hoping to kind of talk through with you, to kind of get to where, like you, to kind of get to where like it's not that I think that they are done poorly or not, not okay, it's just I'm not sure how I feel about them, and one of them is like the potential for homophobia, so there's the only one bed thing and they get in to the room, they like, uh, what? And it's a? It's a small double bed, like it's. It's john candy was six foot one and it seems like it would be a tight fit for him by himself. Um, and so they're looking at it and they're very, very uncomfortable and it's not as like, it's discomfort of like sharing a bed with a stranger, yeah, and then they're like putting their stuff down and dell says you want to take a shower? And uh, neil goes no, and the timing is such that I laughed because Del was like no, no, no, do you want to take the first shower? And but you know, there's, there's that in there, that that sense of like the discomfort with it. But at the same time they're strangers.
Speaker 1:And then one of the biggest reasons I never saw this movie was when they wake up in the morning snuggling, and this was in the trailers, I saw it. It's a famous moment. They are spooning, del is the big spoon and holding hands, and Del says why are you holding my hand? And then Neil says where's your other hand? And Dell says between two pillows. And Dale says those aren't pillows and they both jump out of the bed and you know, eight-year-old me was like not interested. Like eight-year-old me was like not interested, like eight-year-old me. I felt like that was gross humor and I just didn't want to. And then they immediately, like they both jump out of bed and they're like oh, did you see the bears? Yeah, yeah, they're really good. They're good this season and, like you know, kind of reassert their masculinity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so eight-year-old me was, like you know, kind of reassert their masculinity. Yeah, so, eight-year-old me was, like you know, a little uptight about some types of potty humor. And then, uh, roger Ebert in a review of in 2000. So like, when he did, like a best of movie, best of thing. Okay, so not contemporaneous. And he mentioned that this is one of the few movies that his family watches over and over again. They watch it every year at Thanksgiving. So like that is a big deal for someone who watches as many movies as he does or did. Yeah, sure, and he said this isn't homophobic. What, like, what happens when they jump out of bed? This is a, the discomfort of the closeness and stuff like that. And I kind of want to unpack that. Is it not homophobic? I don't know, because the situation is such that they're strangers, forced into close proximity and intimacy, but they immediately go with, like, how about them bears?
Speaker 2:It's an interesting question, so okay, so here's a thought experiment. What if this had been a story? And Dell had been a story? And, uh, dell had been a woman? And instead of and, and, and that happens, and they jump out of bed and you know, maybe they talk about the weather instead of bears, but like something else not related to what just happened that, that, that still feels real.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that tracks, it still feels realistic and like the way that people would react, um, so, like my, I think probably it could bear additional thought, but my like, just right now thinking about it as you're talking, like I actually think maybe, uh, ebert was right, because they don't say, like I'm not any kind of you know word, I don't want to say it I'll say the other f, I'll say fuck, but I won't say the other word, um, you know, like they don't use those words.
Speaker 1:It's about the intimacy rather than than the genitalia I think.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think I mean that's the way, based on what you've described, that is how it sounds to me.
Speaker 2:Um, and and for sure, like then talking about football right after is definitely a performance of gender, you know, of sexualized gender, like a sexuality, not just a gender because of the, because of the nature of the intimacy, but I don't think in a way that is um, like what's the word I'm looking at?
Speaker 2:Oppressive of queer folk, I think. I think although, listeners, if you disagree with us, like I'd love to hear, cause this, this feels nuanced and subtle and not having that, you know, not being a gay dude, like maybe I'm missing something, but it doesn't sound explicitly I to me, like I I can imagine, especially if they don't end up together in that other version of this movie where dell is like a really slovenly woman and you know, maybe she's gay or whatever, but she she does not end up with neil because neil's married, but they're just, they create a friendship. I can imagine the exact same scene happening and jumping out of bed and um, and talking about something, anything other than what is happening and it doesn't, and it like it tracks okay, yeah, I think that's, I think that's fair, I think that's definitely fair.
Speaker 1:Um, because they're the other than that, that scene, that, and not like that moment of them sharing the hotel room with one bed. Um, there is no, there's no question of intimacy other than friendship type of intimacy.
Speaker 2:I mean even the like do you want to shower? No, like it's not, no, I'm not a. It's like right, or how dare you suggest? Or like sorry, I don't swing that way. It's sort of like, oh, like that sort of like, which is? I met you three hours ago. Right, which is why you laugh yeah. So I think maybe Ebert is right. So that's.
Speaker 1:That's one part that I wanted to kind of nuance and talk to you about. The other is fat phobia. Yeah, because John Candy was a big man. Yeah, because John Candy was a big man, he was known for it, and part of what I appreciated about the film again, and his acting ability was the dignity that he gives to his character, which has, like like there is never any mention made directly of his size, but he and Neil are consistently put in tight spaces, so like when Neil is in coach, like the size of the seats and there's sharing a booth at a restaurant and the amount of food that's on the table that Neil is not eating but Del is, I know, is like I know this because I read this about Good Omens, where, because of how difficult it is to keep consistency when you have food involved in a take, it's a lot easier to only have one character eat if you have to have a character eat, so like it fits character-wise in like Good Omens, because Aziraphale likes to eat and Crowley doesn't really care.
Speaker 1:So that that's. But that also makes the job a lot easier for the editors and the coordinators and all of that. But there's that, and then there's a point where we pan over them in bed and there's like a box of Cracker Jacks on the bedside table and, like Del is covered with like the caramel popcorn. So there are never words that talk about Del's size, but the movie does.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that, from from what you've described and from John John Candy's choices in roles, Del was meant to be seen as slovenly and his fatness was part of how the movie makers conveyed that he was slovenly, and I think therein lies the fat phobia also the fact that the movie is entirely neil's point of view.
Speaker 1:So in in that, like we're not ever given a chance to see the way Dell operates as reasonable, which is what it would be from his point of view- Right, right, right, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:All of these things go together and those are all things that are used to signify to us, the viewer, that he is that, at least on some measure, less than Neil, and part of the story arc is for Neil to see that that's false. But it's completely unquestioned that we would trade in the fatness as part of that constellation of less than, yeah, and slovenly. They can convey that he's slovenly without the lumpy clothes just because he's fat. I think that is like a a part of it and and you're right that like not showing his pov like only exacerbates the fact that we then just see this as ridiculous and irrational and unreasonable, but the social mores that it's trading on it equates fatness with all those things, yeah, and particularly for in my mind, for my money, particularly fatness and slovenliness lobby, like being a slob, like without he didn't have to eat ever. Just the fact that they put a fat bodied man in that role, like we as the audience have been taught, that equals slovenly, well, and and gross, Like cause that's.
Speaker 1:That's the other thing that I was thinking about is like when he takes off his shoes, Although I got to say feet are gross, I don't care whose feet they are.
Speaker 2:Like do not take your socks and shoes off in a public place, I don't care whose feet they are.
Speaker 1:Do not take your socks and shoes off in a public place, I'm sorry, unless it's the beach or something literally gross and would be, even if like a steve martin we're doing martin, we're doing it or like a, um, any kind of thin-bodied, attractive person, right, but they give it to dell to right. So, like, true, they're, that's true, yeah, um, so it's this. This equation of like, of fatness, equals gross, yep, um, and like, yeah, the movie, sort of like it doesn't redeem itself, but like the, the dignity that I was talking about allows us to see, like you know, he's a human with a body like all of us, and all of our bodies are disgusting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the to me once again. I feel like I've said this at other times, but once again I'm going to say like I'm not mad at John, john Hughes for this, I'm mad at society for this Right. I think John Hughes and Hughes and Candy himself were reflecting something that was out there and in some ways it's shorthand.
Speaker 1:It was shorthand that we, the viewer, understood and I did a little bit of reading about John Candy last night, just like his Wikipedia page, and it was interesting Today's November 1st. Yesterday was October 31st, it was his birthday. Little bit of reading about john candy last night, um, just like his wikipedia page, and, uh, and it was interesting today's november 1st. Yesterday was october 31st, it was his birthday. He would have been 74, oh, interesting, and he had a lot of internalized fat phobia. Of course he did, and in ways that like of course he did in the 1980s, as, like you know, someone who's an adult in the 1980s would have been like. I mean, today it's like it's. There are more avenues for.
Speaker 2:There are, but that's why Lizzo is seen as so revolutionary. Yes, she's totally counter-cultural.
Speaker 1:Yes, and to the point where, like, based on what I was reading, it really felt like part of why John Candy felt so natural in this role is because Del is not a character Right, the things that I was reading about John Candy where he was like desperate for people to appreciate him and love him and that, like was part and parcel with many of the decisions he made, so it's it's like kind of heartbreaking and at the same time, like part of me is like you know what I feel? Like in 150 years, people might be like examining this film to like better understand, like fat phobia in late 20th century america, yeah, maybe. And and like the ways in which, like, there were attempts to subvert it that still reified it and you know that sort of thing, right.
Speaker 2:I mean, I feel like the, the fact that candy became a it just, it just makes sense, like Like the guy who's he's fat, so he'll never be, but he's like an actor, but he'll never be a romantic lead because he's fat, so he becomes a clown, like it just feels like a trope almost. Yes, yes, so yeah, I'm watching the time. Are there any other like key, like points that you wanted to either unpack or make sure you lift it up before I try to reflect back?
Speaker 1:what we talked about. Well, since we didn't talk about gender at all, I do think I do want to quickly just mention so it passes the Bechdel test with a squeaker, because Neil has three children, one girl and two boys, and the little girl talks to her mom about the grandparents coming over the next day. So, but so you know it's a squeaker and even though this is a like, this is an examination of class, there's still like, it's still very like, it's white man centered. We like, we do see a few people of color at various points during their their travels, but they're extras basically, Not not. Basically they are and even like class distinctions between Neil and Del are not that wide. I mean, they are, they feel huge to Neil, but it's not like the class distinctions between someone with Neil's privilege and someone who is truly unhoused someone with.
Speaker 1:Neal's privilege and someone who is truly unhoused. So, like again, this feels like a really useful examination of the ways that America like looks at things, not saying the ways that white male privileged America looks at things.
Speaker 2:I mean it jibes with it jibes with John Hughes, absolutely. I mean, like we talked about breakfast club being an examination of class, it was still a slice of humanity, yeah, like not. And not the whole of American population, yeah, so but, like John Candy, really elevates this.
Speaker 1:He elevates this beyond just a buddy comedy and gives us a character who is just worth knowing.
Speaker 2:Cool, all right. So let me see if I can reflect back some of the highlights that we talked about. So I'll go in reverse order. I'll start a boy. So this film answers all three of those questions with a yes, but just barely come up that are alive in this movie are class and class distinctions, because we have Steve Martin's Neil, who seems to be quite wealthy, and then John Candy's uh, dell, who isn't particularly wealthy, so a marketing executive of some kind and a shower curtain ring salesman. I guess I'm making a shrug emoji. I mean, I'm making a shrug, I'm shrugging.
Speaker 2:One of the things you led with the fact that this film really surprised you, pleasantly surprised you, with the depth of humanity, dignity and pathos that it affords Dell, and I think you smartly named that this is in part because of John Waters. Not John Waters, different John, very different John John Hughes is writing but very much because of John Candy's performance, which I think is really worth noting. And one of the things that we actually kind of ended on is the fact that maybe that's because it wasn't as much of a performance for John Candy that there was a lot of himself in it, and so that's why it read as so real in which it was, we think, maybe internalized for John Candy, this talented actor who would never be the romantic lead because he had a fat body and so therefore he became a clown. And we talked about the fat phobia which in the dialogue. If you just read a transcript of the film, of what is spoken, you would not say there's particularly any fatphobia to it. But in the way that Dell is portrayed in particular, sort of the constellation of being slovenly and disgusting and sort of absurd and also fat, the film reifies those equivalencies as a part of the fatphobia that's just baked in to American society, especially in the late 20th century, but definitely until today. One of the things that the way that I named it is that I'm not mad at John Hughes, I'm mad at society for this one, at John Hughes, I'm mad at society for this one.
Speaker 2:One key moment in the film that you wanted to kind of unpack with me together is when these two men, this mismatched buddy comedy, ends up with the one bed trope and they wake up snuggling and then jump out of bed really quickly and start talking about the bears which, um, roger Ebert in 2000, in a retrospective sort of claims is is not guilty of homophobia, and we think I think between the two of us, we basically agree with him, though are keeping the door open for especially a gay man, to sort of raise his hand and say, um, actually, maybe they could have done it this way.
Speaker 2:Um, one of the things that is interesting about this film is that it's one of very few Thanksgiving themed films. Like I'm racking my brain trying to think of others, and I really can't. So I suppose you're right, but it's like boggling my mind that, like this most quintessential of American holidays, like we don't have movies about. That seems really insane. But I guess it's just close enough to Christmas that that's where we all go. I mean, they have whole channels dedicated to Christmas movies, so Thanksgiving gets a little bit short shrift. Um, and I, yeah, I, what am I forgetting?
Speaker 1:Uh, so, questions of like how privilege operates, and so the fact that operates, and so the fact that Neil thinks of inconveniences as something he can buy his way out of uh and and how.
Speaker 1:he's very uh, self-contained in a way that is not necessarily healthy. Because the way that Dell operates is he's got buddies everywhere or he can sweet talk people or you know and like and it's not just like you, you believe that he likes getting to know people, whereas like Neil, just he just wants to spend money so he can get through the thing and be done and move on and not recognize, like, the benefit of move on and not recognize the benefit of connection with other people and how that actually can be a better way or at least a valid way of operating rather than just using money to solve problems.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 2:Everything is a transaction for Neil whereas everything is an opportunity for growth or potential connection for Dell, oh I, there's one thing I wanted to relift up, which is um, the fact that Dell is is in grief, is a grieving person, that he lost his wife, about whom he said love is not big enough word eight years ago, and something that you said when you were sharing, that is, that you think about grief like a desiccant and it sort of turns you into a more concentrated version of yourself, which I think is a beautiful metaphor.
Speaker 2:So thank you for that. And um, and and you named that sort of that knowledge is part of what makes Del, despite his absurdness and his sort of over the topness, believable. The fact that he is lonely and still grieving his deceased wife is part of what makes his absurdity actually believable, and so I wanted to lift that back up, both for the beautiful metaphor and also for the storytelling piece of it. Right, because you have this farce, that part of what was so surprising to you about this farce this just hijinks movie was how real the absurd character was for you, how human and how real, and I think the grieving part is was a piece of that. So I wanted to lift that back up Cool Any anything else that you want to make sure that we named that I missed Um.
Speaker 1:I just want to let listeners know, like, if there are films from the eighties you're afraid that you can't go home again, this is not one of them. If you haven't seen it, please do. There's a lot of really lovely aspects of it and it is laugh out loud funny. I laughed a lot. And there's also a lot of cameos that I wasn't expecting. There's different actors I wasn't expecting, so it's just. It's 90 minutes of sunshine in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:And surprisingly handsome steve martin. Surprisingly handsome, steve martin. Oh, that was. That's the thing that we. That I forgot is that you named that part of how they conveyed his class and his, you know, affluence was through his um, how they dressed him, how they styled him, which was classic and and tailored and quality, and and also helped, uh, make him all the more appealing visually. All right, cool. Well, um, I'm going to, I'm going to have to watch this, and maybe this will be my Thanksgiving uh, viewing this year. So thank you for bringing it to my attention. Of course, next week we are going to do a bonus episode just for patrons. I am going to bring my deep thoughts about office space.
Speaker 1:Oh, you look like you've got a case of the. Mondays.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you could just do that TPS report for me, that would be great.
Speaker 1:All right, well, looking forward to it.
Speaker 2:See you, then See you then, Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?