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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about The Birdcage
Shouldn't you be holding the crucifix? It is the prop for martyrs!
The 1996 film The Birdcage offered a revolutionary portrayal of gay love in a mainstream movie. Not only do we see a stable, loving, long-term relationship between Robin Williams’ Armand and Nathan Lane’s Albert, but the film is a funny and joyous celebration of being queer that doesn’t require a side of tragedy.
But as Tracie shares with us this week, not everything in this laugh-out-loud farce has aged well: Armand and Albert’s son Val is a straight-up villain (see what I did there?) who pressures his parents hide their true selves, Hank Azaria’s portrayal of Agador, the Guatemalan house boy, makes his character the butt of the joke (not to mention the fact that Azaria is a straight, white, Ashkenazi Jewish man playing a queer Latino), and the shortcuts the filmmakers use to show the hypocrisy of Gene Hackman’s Senator Keeley reify racist stereotypes.
The sisters still find a lot to love in this film that asks us to question assumptions about gender performance and family–even if they can never forgive Val.
We are family! I’ve got the Guy sisters with me. Get up everybody and listen!
CW: Discussions of homophobia and the AIDS epidemic
Mentioned in this episode:
The commentator who named Val THE villain of the 1990s:
https://crookedmarquee.com/why-the-birdcage-mattered-and-how-it-came-up-short/#google_vignette
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
the keelys came to them. This was the goldman's home, where they were known out, respected in their community. And yet it was the goldmans who had to change in order to make the normal people I'm putting quotes around the word normal comfortable, what others might deem stupid shit. You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. We're sisters, tracy and Emily, collectively known as the guy girls. Every week, we take turns rewatching, researching and reconsidering beloved media and sharing what we learn. Come over, think with us and if you get value from the show, please consider supporting us. You can become a patron on Patreon or send us a one-time tip through Ko-fi. Both links are in the show notes and thanks. I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? Today, I'll be bringing my deep thoughts about the 1996 film the Birdcage to my sister, emily Guy-Burken, and to you. Let's dive in. All right, em. What do you remember about the Birdcage?
Speaker 3:I remember laughing until my stomach hurt. No-transcript. They tried to redeem me at the time that the way he was forcing his two dads to deny themselves would have been considered acceptable, Especially considering the fact that his fiance's family was so conservative. So I suspect that hasn't aged well in the past 28 years.
Speaker 4:The man, that guy, that kid Val, he is like the most I don't know evil villain of the 90s. I mean in part because of just the banality of it. I mean just really like the movie monsters at the time. Like I read, somebody who was like the virus in 12 monkeys looks at that and goes like yeah, we got nothing on him 12 monkeys, looks at that and goes like, yeah, we got nothing on him.
Speaker 3:I also wasn't a huge fan of the fiance because she's lying about their name, saying it's Coleman instead of Goldman, because you know it's not OK that they're Jewish. But with her I could. She was managing her own family and not that that made it okay, but she wasn't denying them. So so I I I remember that. And then the other thing that I associate with this film is at the end, when they're all in drag. They play, we are family. I got all my sisters with me. They play, we Are Family. I got all my sisters with me. And when our cousin had his bar mitzvah I don't remember exactly when the music cue to come on for you and me to say something was that song.
Speaker 4:So I associate that song with you in this movie and our cousin's bar mitzvah.
Speaker 3:I have no recollection of that. It was so ever. It was funny because it was one of those things where, like, they had that because we're sisters and that's how everyone, like we're a unit in our family, which at times I bristled against, but that I was like, I'll allow it because I like this song. So tell me, why are we talking about the Birdcage today?
Speaker 1:So it's funny how these things happen. There was a mention of the movie in one of my social media feeds within the past I don't know month, maybe two and I was like, oh yeah, I forgot about that movie, and so I went back and rewatched it and it was really interesting to watch it now it's almost 30 years later and sort of see what has held up and what what hasn't, and how far we've come in some ways around queer representation, and so I wanted to kind of take a look back at it as a result of having it like just being been reminded of it. Like you, I found it very, very funny, and you know, robin Williams has a sort of a special place I think we've talked about that before on the show. This movie doesn't particularly remind me of dad, but robin williams in general does, and so so, anyway, I just it just was like a happy memory and I was like, yeah, let's see, let's look the deep thoughts, um, so it's not much deeper than that, yeah, but um there are some.
Speaker 3:There are a lot of uh quotes from this movie that just run through my head where, like, why don't you take the cross? It's the prop for martyrs, yeah yeah, yeah, anyway, all right.
Speaker 1:Well, there's some things there, like for sure, val the sun, we need to talk about, and and so some of the things I want to talk about are I want to make sure we put this film in context, because in 96, it was a big deal, and I want to talk about it as representation that wasn't about trauma, like because around the same time frame we had either to Wong Fu with love, julieie newmar, which was sort of just caricature over the top, or philadelphia, which is all about the trauma and the danger of being gay in america, and so this film kind of rejected both of those and so I want to talk about that, that in context.
Speaker 1:I want to talk about this as like a really interesting meditation on the performance of gender, like in general, um, including masculinity, um, and I think I want to talk about, uh, robin williams and the fact that he really is sort of the straight man, not heterosexual, but in the comedic duo, which is an interesting role for him.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:And we need to talk about race a little bit. It's not a huge thing in this film, but it's there and I think we need to talk about it a bit. This film, but it's there and I think we need to talk about it a bit. And finally, the heteronormativity that is still at play in this film about, you know, featuring gay protagonists.
Speaker 1:So those are some of the things that I want to talk about, and I'm sure that our conversation will go in other directions as well. We'll let it see what happens. But let me see if I can give a quick synopsis of the plot, and I think this will be pretty quick because there are a lot of details but the actual action is relatively minimal. So the movie we first meet Armand Goldman and his partner in both love and business, albertand Robin Williams owns the titular nightclub, the birdcage, which is a drag show in Miami, um, in South beach, in South beach, and Albert is the star, aptly named starina, of this drag show and people line up, including kennedy's, to come see starina perform. So when we first meet them, uh, starina, albert nathan lane is like having a fit because in addition to being a drag queen, she is a drama queen. She won't go on. She's convinced that armand is having an affair and she's just. She's just over the top how she's not gonna go on, and there's some very funny quips in there.
Speaker 1:Hank azaria plays their house boy. Uh, agador and like this very funny moment, like where albert talks about how he can't go on without his Purin tablets. He needs a Purin tablet and Armand is like Agidor, what are you giving him? And he says, oh, it's just aspirin, with the A-N-E-S scraped off.
Speaker 4:Which is still like oh man Anyway.
Speaker 1:So we meet these two and then the filmmakers lead us to believe that armand is in fact having an affair, as he's like. Once albert is on stage as starina, armand like sneaks up the stairs to the apartment that's above the club and is prepping for a date, it seems. And then this young, handsome man comes in and they greet one another with a hug and we think that this is in fact a date. But it turns out that this handsome young man is his son, val. Home from college, we learned that Val wants to get married. He's looking for approval from his dad to a woman. He wants to get married to a woman. He's looking for approval from his dad.
Speaker 3:I just want to say the timing, because he starts telling I remember Val starts telling his dad about it and his dad is like gulping down wine and he's like you don't approve. And he puts it down. And let me tell you why. Yeah, it's just the comedic timing of that, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I'm sorry, it's just.
Speaker 1:It's really good, it's delightful, so, and armand has very good reasons. I mean, val is only 20 um and but he clearly loves his kid. He says he stands for him.
Speaker 4:He's like you're on your own with this one kid. But then you know, he comes, he, he. They go to give a handshake and they get pulled into a hug and and Val's, like you, did good, I believed you.
Speaker 1:And he's like really Did you Sweet, it's really sweet. Played by Calista Flockhart is the daughter of conservative Senator Kevin Keighley. Played by what's that guy's name? Why am I blanking on his name? It's not Gene Hackman, is it?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, it's Gene Hackman, thank you. Played by Gene Hackman, who thinks that the Pope is too controversial. Uh, he, he wants someone more like um pat robertson is that the name. Anyway, he's super like caricature, conservative of the 90s not so much a caricature anymore. Right, he is the co-founder with, uh, senator jackson, of some ridiculous like order for morality or something. I don't remember the exact words, it doesn't really matter uh, coalition for the moral order. And we see him on some ridiculous talk show that he refers to as the most intelligent thing on TV, where they're just like yelling over each other.
Speaker 1:So Barbara tells them that she wants to get married, as you say, she lies about their name. She lies about what Armand does and says that he's the cultural attache to Greece and they don't like it. She's only 18. Whatever, we get distracted. The next action is that this co-founder of the Coalition for Moral Order dies in bed with an underage Black prostitute Whoops. So the press descends to ask for comments from Senator Keeley. Louise, the mom, barbara's mom, played by Diane Wiest, decides, pushes for encourages I don't know, she is pulling some strings that a marriage is exactly what is needed to sort of restore their image. So they decide to drive to South Beach from Ohio to meet Barbara's intended and his parents. Barbara has told them that Mrs Coleman is a housewife.
Speaker 1:So Val tells his dad he has to interrupt a rehearsal, which is very funny, one of the most iconic scenes in the movie where Robin Williams does this like sort of brief homage to various moments in dance history, naming the dancers and or choreographers, as he's trying to tell the dancer who's with Albert for this scene, like what to do. And so he does this, this whole list of people that he names. And then he says but you keep it all inside, it's. It's like iconic, it's an iconic scene. Anyway, val is interrupting this rehearsal to tell his dad they're coming tomorrow and Armand is like that's fine, we have plenty of time, I need to get back to rehearsal. And then he says no, they think that you know, you're the cultural attache to Greece and they think that you're straight. And basically Val is a villain and asks his dad to go back in the closet and send Albert away.
Speaker 3:Dad to go back in the closet and send Albert away. That's the part that I really in part, because poor Albert has already been cheated on, which is how Val came to be, I mean, 21 years ago.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure that's true. That's interesting. That's not the way that I read it. Oh, okay, val exists because of a one-night stand between Armand and Catherine, whom we do meet. I didn't read it as that he was cheating on Albert when that happened, but that it happened before or around the time they got together. Gotcha, that's the way I read it. I could be mistaken. I think that I I'm remembering the whole thing. That could be a valid read, because katherine knows about albert, but which is why I always assumed so but I could also see that like maybe they got together while she was pregnant.
Speaker 1:You know, like there's a long, there's like a full, like nine to ten months, between the one night stand the one night stand and the baby coming to be, and then we there.
Speaker 3:We also don't know, yeah, so whether or not it was before they got together. That does give Albert reason to feel insecure. Yeah, for sure, Because he is like this is before he could have adopted Val.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they can even get married.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's before he and Armand could have gotten married and so like he already probably feels very strongly that like's he's the odd one out in this family and then to be told by his son it's awful that's really like, it's really villainous.
Speaker 1:Um, and initially our mind is like no, I'm not doing this, you're not gonna like, it's taken me 20 years to get here and actually the williams does a great job, in my opinion, of sort of portraying the weight, the sadness, the grief, the insecurity of that moment of like yeah, this is who I am and it's taken me 20 years to feel comfortable with it and I'm not going to let you you know he doesn't say the words push me back into the closet, but that's basically what val's asking him to do. He relents because he loves val and and val also wants them to tone down the um decor in the apartment. So they take all the stuff out and, like some of the dancers at the club, like the uh drag performers in the club are like helping to like re to redecorate the apartment, redecorate the apartment and val keeps saying don't add, just subtract like who put the playboys in the bathroom.
Speaker 4:Like like one of the one of the performers is like that's what they read. Um, don't add, only subtract anyway. Um, so there's so much.
Speaker 1:The apartment is just like totally it's just bare walls.
Speaker 4:You know all of their stuff.
Speaker 1:So then there's this um, albert does not obviously want to be sent away, as you say. It's like it's very upsetting to him. Um, and so Armand is like, screw it, you can stay, but let's see if we can, like you know, put you up, put you up.
Speaker 4:That's not the words they use, but that's basically what happens. So there's this channel like John Wayne, they do.
Speaker 1:There's an extended scene where Armand is trying to coach Albert in like acting straight. And he says to, to, to walk like John Wayne, because who could be more masculine?
Speaker 4:And Lane, Nathan Lane does this amazing job to like walk like John Wayne, but it's not particularly masculine. Anyway, it's back and forth until you know. Eventually they're having a conversation about football, the dolphins and. And nathan lane, nathan lane's albert's like was that bad? Was that the wrong reaction?
Speaker 3:williams's arm on is like I actually don't know because he does me say how do you think I feel hurt, betrayed?
Speaker 1:yes, yes, betrayed, bewildered, yeah, yeah, oh so okay comedic geniuses so they decide to try and like that albert can pass as the uncle if there's actually a mom. And so they decide to actually reach out to the estranged mom, this woman with whom Armand had this one night stand 21 years ago, who has had zero input in his life, like he's never Val's never even met her. But Armand reaches out to her, she agrees to see him, she, he sees her at her office. She runs like a exercise company or something like body works, archer. Body works. Her name is Catherine Archer.
Speaker 1:She's played by what's her name? Christine Baranski. Her. Thank you. She does it beautifully and she wants to help. And they, like she and Armand's kind of like have some nostalgia and remember the show that they were in together because they were actors together and there's some sexual tension between them. And Albert comes in and sees them like kind of sort of snuggling, like it's. It actually is pretty innocent on Armand's part, but it doesn't look it when Albert comes into the office. Innocent on Armand's part, but it doesn't look it when Albert comes into the office and so he storms off and leaves in the car and, uh, doesn't drive very well. So we get back to the apartment and, um, armand beats Albert back to the apartment because he's driving 20 miles an hour or whatever um, and that's the moment when he does the says the thing about take the cross, because the performers have hung a giant, giant crucifix.
Speaker 1:It's like the only decoration in the entire room and um but doesn't he?
Speaker 3:say he's taking. He's taking his toothbrush with him to the cemetery.
Speaker 1:He's like that's so egyptian of you, yes, all of those things, yes, yes. So albert leaves again. Agador, um, you know, cries over him leaving. Please don't go. It's pretty sweet anyway. Then, um, and then we get actually one of the sweetest and like really, this scene holds up in many ways. Uh, armand chases after him and catches up to him at a bus stop and they have this very sweet conversation. That's like still a little bickering because they're an old married couple who aren't married because they're not allowed to, and so they sign a palimony agreement, which I didn't even know what the heck that was, and so I had to look it up but, it's a way to assure property ownership and probate for couples who can't or won't get married.
Speaker 1:So it basically assigned like half ownership of everything in both directions. So it was creating like the illegal effects of marriage, since marriage was impossible for them. It's really sweet.
Speaker 3:And doesn't Armand say something like you're the only one I want to spend time with, or something like that? Or after 20 years, I still want to be with you.
Speaker 1:I remember it, something like that, yeah, after 20 years I still want to be with you. I remember it something like that. Yeah, when Albert was upset and and like sort of storming out, he said, like people are laughing at me, um, and Armand says you, you do make people laugh and I'm still with you because you make me laugh and I and I want to get in. You know, he makes a comment about the, the, the cemetery Cause.
Speaker 1:Albert says he's leaving to go to Los Copos, which is all that's. There is a cemetery, he's going to the cemetery. And so Armand says he has a plot in this great cemetery that's beautiful and he has to sell that plot and get one in that shithole of Los Copos so that he doesn't miss a laugh because he needs to be next to Albert. He also says you know, albert says well, who owns it now of los copos? So that he doesn't miss a laugh because he needs to be next to albert. Um, he also says you know, albert says, well, who owns it now, the club? And and armand says you do what?
Speaker 1:does it matter if you're letting me stay or if I'm letting you stay like it's it's home, because you're there, it's, it's, it's really really sweet and it's like it's really really sweet and it's like it's a representation of a healthy, established gay long term long term gay couple that we didn't really have in 96.
Speaker 1:So so that that moment is really important and I wanted to lift that up. Okay, so fast forward. The keelys get there and there's been this back and forth to try and figure out what to do, to try and not out them immediately. Albert actually ends up putting on a form of drag when he's like in a masculine suit and trying to like pass, I guess, and he has like maroon socks or something.
Speaker 1:They're pink, pink yeah um one does want to touch it, yeah, and, and they realize, they all realize that he's even more obvious in this sort of male drag.
Speaker 1:And so albert single-handedly comes up with the solution when he puts on a, candidly comes up with the solution when he puts on a, puts on drag and shows up as mrs coleman, who they were the keelys were expecting. And then this dinner party, which is like most of the film, like the second half of the film, is this very uncomfortable dinner party where actually nathan lane, albert as mrs cole Coleman in this like Barbara Bush wig and like pink conservative suit and pearls, is like completely relaxed and at home and Gene Hackman's Kevin Keeley is like totally smitten with her. Yes, I mean complaining about the fact like so, and Armand is very nervous and like uncomfortable because of this.
Speaker 1:And so Mr Senator Keeley is convinced that he's, you know, cheating on her. He compares Armand to Aristotle Onassis and, like those Europeans you know anyway, katherine, the actual birth mother, finally does show up. She was stuck in traffic for a long time, and that's when the sort of everything comes to a head, when the keelys are like how many mothers does val have? And finally, finally, val does the right thing and says only one, and it's albert.
Speaker 1:and then meanwhile the journalists, the paparazzi, have real like, they know that the senator is inside the club and are like camping out like dozens of different tv slathering hordes, yeah, yeah are camping out to try and get an image of him as he leaves the club and so to save him from journalists, the goldmans dress all of the keelys in as drag queens, including senator keely, and they come out singing sister sledge as we are family, and escape the club. And actually um albert wears a suit in that scene. And then the very final scene is the big white dress wedding with a preacher and a rabbi officiating and like the very clear, like bride side, with everybody in gray and black, and groom side with like pastels and different colors and lots of drag queens.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, one who thinks bob dole is gorgeous, right?
Speaker 1:right, yes, yes and um, you know, from the bride's side somebody's like which one is the mother and the others are like I just don't know so, and then that that's the end of the movie. So there's, there's, there's more in there. Hank azaria, as agador, the house boy, is like ridiculous and hilarious and also kind of yeah, and there's like a few moments that like in part, to make the Keelys seem, you know, reprehensible, like at one point Senator Keely refers to Agidor as a beige, savage. Yeah, so like it's not all sweetness and light, I guess, is what I'm getting at.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, there are things that don't hold up, but, but let me um let me just start and, and we can, we can see where it goes.
Speaker 1:so I'll start with bechdel, because we so often start with bechdel. So the bechdel test, as a reminder to our listeners, is the question, question, the series of questions. Are there at least two named female characters? Do they talk to each other? Do they talk to each other about something other than a man? This film does not pass because, though Mrs Keeley, louise Keeley and Barbara Keeley talk to one another, they pretty much only talk about either dad or Val.
Speaker 3:And not even like wedding or like avoiding paparazzi or anything like that.
Speaker 1:It's all in regards, I think. I mean, maybe there is a line that would make it pass, but the conversations are about either dad or val, okay, so I just want to get that out of the way I mean so that is the case and also this film, which is like the protagonists ultimately are two gay men, like it, it feels it. It doesn't feel like misogyny, in my opinion that, that it doesn't pass back down.
Speaker 1:So, um, I also I do. I want to. I want to talk about race. Let's do that up front, since I just mentioned the beige savage thing. Hank Azaria, sephardic Jew, I believe, not, I don't think, latinx. He's playing a Guatemalan with an accent, a Guatemalan man with an accent, and he, he says something like how his dad was the shaman of his tribe or something which just yeah, exactly, Um, it does not feel good uh with 2024 eyes.
Speaker 1:It's also the case that I feel as though we're laughing at him, like by the end, we're laughing with Albert. But I feel as though we're laughing at him Like by the end we're laughing with Albert, but I feel like we laugh at Agadar through much of it, so that, layered on top of his ethnic identity, the character's ethnic identity just doesn't feel good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I remember that because one of the things is he doesn't wear shoes ever, and so they make him put shoes on while the Achilles are there and he keeps tripping.
Speaker 4:Yes, which is hilarious. The actual physical plastic, physical comedy.
Speaker 3:Hilarious, amazing. But I remember at the time being, like I don't know, like the assumptions made about someone who doesn't wear shoes.
Speaker 1:It's just silly.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it was just silly, but layered on top of all the other things. Yes, it doesn't sit well.
Speaker 3:And then also in 2024, just this is, you know, completely different property. But Hank Azaria, you know that the Simpsons has stopped using his voice for Apu. I don't know if they no longer have that character at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he has done some public reflection on the harm he did.
Speaker 3:Because there was a documentary put together by Hari Kampabalu, who is an Indian-American who grew up having people mimic Apu at him Right, and I truly believe that Hank Azaria did not mean any harm. Oh sure, that doesn't mean he didn't cause harm.
Speaker 1:Intention and impact are very different things yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's a very gifted mimic. He's got like he can do like these amazing voices. He does so many voices for the Simpsons. So like I can totally understand where it seems like I'm just putting on a funny voice without realizing what the impact is Right On people who might sound like him Right or be assumed to sound like him Right.
Speaker 2:Right On people who might sound like him Right or be assumed to sound like him Right, right.
Speaker 1:The other sort of almost throwaway. The very beginning. The first number that we see at the Birdcage is also Sister Sledge. We Are Family, sister sledge, we are family. And then we watch the performers come in and there's a quick change for one person that we see. Um, it would take off the drag for sister sledge and put on this new costume, which is like a big feathered headdress and then like a, like a kind of a horse that they're wearing riding and it's a the. The performers are wearing sort of drag versions of native american garb which is again like in 96, we let pass with we white people.
Speaker 1:Yes, we non indigenous people let pass without comment. And now it just, it just yucky, yeah it, it's it. It's inappropriate and offensive. It's just a moment like you, barely. You know it's. It's on screen for probably less than a minute and I noted it. So that was another thing that I wanted to name. And then, lastly, when, when thinking about race, the prostitute, uh, who was in the, who was there when the other senator passed away, senator jackson, and uh, she's played in this very sassy stereotyped like, kind of like, just totally reads into the stereotype of the hyper-sexualized young black woman. It's very unfortunate. So it was shorthand for the hypocrisy of this hyper-conservative at the time and it was a shortcut that perpetuated harm.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it reified the very conservative.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I just wanted to name that. I wanted to name that, okay, so those are the things that I wanted to talk about race. So let's talk about the performance of gender in 1996. I think this was like I try to remember in context. I'm trying to remember in context, especially because, because today, with the attention that drag has gotten in the past several years, like it's hard to remember, you know almost 30 years ago that it was a different sort of moment so I'm I'm trying to hold that as well the deeper conversations, the deeper questions and insights that this film is offering us about.
Speaker 1:What about? The fact that we are all performing gender is really, really interesting to me, and I don't think that I got it in the 90s. Yeah.
Speaker 1:The way that Williams, who is like even Val, thinks he's like closer to performing straight, is still performing, you know. And the ways in which taking Nathan Lane's Albert, who is this over the top like very effeminate but fully himself, and then like having him kind of play with gender, and the ways in which Albert is actually more relaxed in female drag and is able to I mean he mocks Senator Keighley to his face without being recognized in that full drag in ways that trying to perform maleness he wouldn't be comfortable, like what that speaks to about the way that, like all gender is performed, is really interesting to me, and I don't know that it was like it was intentional but not intentional, if you know what I mean absolutely yeah I think the filmmakers were interested in talking about bias and hypocrisy and like the fact that, I mean it's clear that armand and albert are the much more stable, happy and and loving couple of
Speaker 1:all three couples I mean the kids are young so we don't know yet, but of the Keelys or these two like, obviously Albert and Armand are more loving hear about you know, um, like val tells us that he's the only one in his frat who doesn't come from a broken home and katherine, the estranged mom, is between husbands right now, putting quotes. So in the whole film they're the only kind of stable, long-term, healthy couple that we see.
Speaker 3:So I think that's what the movie makers were getting at yeah, and even they're like there's a, there's a ribbon of enjoyment in their bickering like oh yeah, yes it's, it's clear fondness for one another, even yeah, bickering, yeah, like there's you get get the impression this is just what they like to do, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I think that the movie makers were kind of after that. That's what they were after. In the process. They also did some interesting things about the performance of gender, which I don't know that we were ready to talk about in the 90s?
Speaker 3:I'm sure we were not For certain.
Speaker 1:You and I were not. Yes, I'm not sure that like mainstream culture was ready to Mainstream American culture. Yeah, I mean, and remarkably, they were ready to at least listen to the conversation about love, because this movie did much better than anyone anticipated. It. Do so it. You know. It made like 200 million in international um international box office. It cost 31 to make, so it it and it spent. It was like a number one um on the whatever for for several weeks there.
Speaker 3:Is there any sense that there were people who didn't get that and were just laughing at the like very over the top performance of of homosexuality?
Speaker 1:I mean, how would I know?
Speaker 3:Yeah homosexuality.
Speaker 1:I mean, how would I know?
Speaker 3:Yeah, roger Ebert's contemporaneous review seemed to get it.
Speaker 1:You know he talked about the love between these two and the fact that you know that really it's the conservative, so-called family values folks who are being lampooned. Ebert got it, so I don't know, but I think that I find that really interesting and I'm going to further problematize it and contextualize it by saying that it also, even in the sort of performance of gender, kind of fed into heteronormativity, right, and the idea that even among gay couples there's like a man I'm putting quotes around that and a woman, right, and in some ways the movie kind of lampoons that and in some ways totally feeds into it, right. So in the very, very beginning, Albert is saying like you don't take that tone with me, so condescending, like you know everything because you're the man and I know nothing because I'm a woman and, and and armand is like you're not a woman uh, which upsets albert, of course yeah
Speaker 1:so and not in like a transphobic kind of way. I think Albert is in fact cis and also a drag performer, and also I'm going to admit that there's nuance in there that I'm not sure I understand. Yeah, yeah, so that kind of that heteronormativity of sort of saying, well, that heteronormativity of sort of saying, well, which one is the man in the relationship, which is kind of gross, is there.
Speaker 1:There's also the sense that like and the more I think about it, the more this upsets me, particularly about Val, but just the movie in general and that we accepted it. And you know, I mean it is where we were in the 90s in the 90s. But the keelys came to them. This was the goldman's home, where they were known out, respected in their community, and yet it was the goldmans who had to change in order to make the normal people I'm putting quotes around the word normal comfortable and that's a form of heteronormativity that says the straight folks are the normal ones and you weirdos need to change to make them feel comfortable In your own home, In your own home. That makes me very uncomfortable and that's, I think, too, part of what makes Val such a villain in my head. Now, Right, Because this isn't Barbara an outsider saying like, could you I'm sorry, but could you just please, because my dad's really he's really hard to get along with. Like this is Val saying Dad, if you love me, you'll pretend you're something you're not, and ouch. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Now, something interesting for me in seeing this, because I was 17 when it came out and we've talked offline about this once or twice. I'm not going to say prior to this specifically, but this is the first time I remember seeing it and being aware of it was I had in my head an idea of what it meant to be gay, what a gay man was like, and that was in part because of the kind of lampooning that we would get in, you know, pop culture, in sitcoms and things like that, and in part because of things like the Hays Code, which in older movies would not allow any explicit expression of homosexual love, desire, anything like that, and so there were these shortcuts createdand who is, you know, in a long-term homosexual relationship? That's very loving, that is basically a marriage. While still adhering to what I think of as mostly heterosexual norms. I can remember like he wears like very masculine, like masculine coated clothes, but he has these like trousers that are like loose fitting.
Speaker 1:He wears like linen trousers like suits.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can remember that being the first time like, oh, I didn't know that could be a thing. Some of that is just having grown up in the 80s and 90s, not knowing anyone who was out, you know, not getting any pop culture references that weren't like over the top, but I feel like in some ways that was helpful for me to recognize that what I think of is not what is the case. You know that that they're, they're and, and you know, once I was thinking about it I was like, well, of course not. You know, like everyone comes in all stripes. The thing that I find like tough about that is that it was the fact that he was more heteronormative and that he was the man quote unquote in that relationship that made sense for me who had been or an N for mainstream culture. That kind of opened my eyes, while still reiterating this problematic way of looking at at relationships.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think it's also something that which and this is another time when I need to put things in context Like when we talked about revenge of the nerds, you noted that, like people didn't like actors didn't want to play gay characters on screen because it would hurt them. So in some ways, this is a step forward. Williams was a major talent, and in other ways, like now, lane is in fact gay, though I don't think he was publicly out when this movie was made, and so the question of representation and the actor's identity, matching that of the character they play, and some of those key markers, is one that this movie brings up for me. So I do think it's interesting, as I noted in my intro, that williams plays the sort of more subdued. In some ways, this is a very subdued performance for him. Oh sure, yeah, you know, in line with some of his more dramatic roles that we've talked about, even as opposed to his more comedic ones, where he you know, I mean he had the capacity for such manic energy just over the top.
Speaker 1:That really doesn't show in this film, and in my research I read that he actually had been considered for the Albert role and didn't want it because it was just coming off of mrs doubtfire.
Speaker 1:So he didn't want to do another one in drag. I think that was the right choice, though lane wasn't out. He is gay and I think that lane brought a level of nuance to that performance, wants to that performance and sort of gender expression and sexuality and all of the constellation that. That is that. I'm not sure if Williams could have done as well. So I think it was the right choice.
Speaker 1:But I think that's interesting to note and sort of looking back, like today, if a movie were made about a long term couple, you know, the club owner and the drag performer star, I would hope that both actors would be gay.
Speaker 3:So in some ways this this is. I don't know if you've read the story about Tim Walls, kamala Harris's vice presidential running mate. He was teaching in Minnesota when Matthew Shepard was murdered and there was a request to create a gay straight alliance at that high school and he was the football coach. He married to a woman and I can't remember if he was asked or if he volunteered, but either way he realized like no, I'm the right person to do this because he makes it safe.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 3:He makes it safe, and so Robin Williams, playing this character, in some ways feels like that kind of step Whereas I'm not saying in 2024 would be inappropriate for a straight teacher to run. I mean, it's called the Gay Straight Alliance, but you know you want them to partner with someone who has the lived experience that they can use to help the kids.
Speaker 1:Right, right. Context matters though. And the context surrounding it. Yeah, yeah, and so I think that's that was, that's something that I just wanted to name, you know with 2024 eyes.
Speaker 1:The other thing that some LGBTQ commentators that I read named in terms of context was that this was sort of the the AIDS crisis was kind of plateauing, uh, and so this was a moment again that now it gets mentioned in this movie, but it's just a mention, it's not. It's it's not at all central, and so we're sort of, if you're aware, you're aware that in the periphery, these two men are survivors, right, they've survived this terrible moment in their community and they have definitely lost people, right, and so, but that's not what it's about. And so one commentator that I read was folks that it was okay to laugh and that there was joy and fun in their identity and in their community, not just grief and sorrow.
Speaker 3:You know the the other thing that that brings up for me is I've I've seen um queer folks from like our age talking about how they grew up without queer elders because they all died, Right, and so this gave the LGBTQ community elders like fictional, but elders that they could look at with a lovely, beautiful relationship that is also hilarious and joyful and complete and full. I mean they have full lives, they have work, they have family, they have like Also hilarious and joyful and complete and full. I mean they have full lives, they have work, they have family, they have friends, they have a child. So showing that there is something on the other side of middle age For a community that didn't get a lot of for that 15-year period, Just didn't have anyone to look up to because they all died, yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, the last thing I want to say.
Speaker 1:I meant to mention this when I talked about Val's villainy, part of why he's so villainous, all the things I already said and also he's asking them to do this so that he can get married, which his parents cannot.
Speaker 3:Oh gosh, I never even thought of that all the more like oh my, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, he's a prick.
Speaker 4:Oh, that's so ugly.
Speaker 3:How would I mean? This is a movie of its time and I know it's based on the French, like, yes, it's based on French Show and movie La Cage, a Folle Play.
Speaker 1:And then movie La Cage a Folle, Exactly, and there's also a musical. It's a 10-man movie, La Cage a Folle exactly, and there's also a musical actually. So it's been remade many, many times. I haven't seen any of those. I've only seen this Robin Williams Nathan Lane movie, but in my reading I read about that. So the play and the film, the French, are older from the 70s.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So pre-AIDS or pre-Aids crisis anyway?
Speaker 3:so a couple things. I'm thinking like this is a movie of its moment, because if you were to try to make it today, we would not accept val, and we also would not accept senator keely um, because he's mostly just kind of like a buffoon, but he's not evil Whereas someone who would have a problem with their daughter's boyfriend having two fathers we would have.
Speaker 1:I mean, he's not portrayed as evil, but he's evil. True true, and I think that's, but I think your point is is well taken. We would not accept him because he's not just a buffoon Like as a Senator, he's actually working to enact legislation that will hurt his daughter's fiance's parents hurt them. So this isn't just like he's ignorant and intolerant. The policies he is trying to enact will actively hurt them. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I feel like today's audience would be more aware of that and not be able to see him as a buffoon. So that's like because I'm thinking like how could we redeem Val and they try to at the end when he does the right thing, but it's like only when he's forced to. It's a little too. It's too little, too late.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's like the jig is up.
Speaker 1:The guy's a prick. The guy's a prick.
Speaker 3:But one thing that I think is interesting, that I hadn't put this together. I knew that La Cage a Folle was older. I hadn't put together that it was pre-AIDS crisis when it was written. And something you and I have talked about a couple of times is what happens when you write an entirely new story versus when you adapt a story that already exists.
Speaker 3:So we talked about this in, like Roger Rabbit, where if we made the story about Dolores, so it could still be noir, but then we'd have it from the female point of view versus recasting it where Eddie is Edwina, and this is an example of what I'm talking about, where this was an existing property.
Speaker 3:In the existing property, the AIDS crisis was not something that people thought of when they thought of the gay experience, because it wasn't at the time that it was written. So by updating it to the 1996, they basically wrote that out, whereas if they had written a brand new story in 1996, even if they were trying to make it a comedy, that is in the heads of the writers and they would have included that and included the heartbreak of that, and so like we've kind of gone back and forth over, like I've talked about how I would love to see James Bond cast as Idris Elba, so make him a black actor playing James Bond would be amazing. Cast a woman as James Bond would be amazing because it does something different from writing an entirely new spy story with the intention of it being a black or a woman spy Right, because we come with our preconceived notions.
Speaker 1:Right, like when we talked about Blade Runner, if Ridley Scott had cast Sigourney Weaver as Deckard instead of Harrison Ford, the way he did in Alien?
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly, and so that's something like. I think this is a really interesting example of that that had not occurred to me. It's not that I was unaware of the AIDS epidemic or crisis or anything like that. It did not touch my life. Right. So it was background for me as a child in the 80s and 90s, but it didn't. I never thought about the fact that La Cage Aux Folles was from prior to that being the story of being gay.
Speaker 1:Right, right, okay, I'm gonna try and reflect back like we had a lot of thoughts that were not super cohesive, so we'll see if I can do this, but let me see if I can reflect back some of the key things that we talked about here. So we talked about gayness in this film and the way that in the 90s this was a new thing to have this loving couple as the protagonists for a mainstream audience, and how they were neither kind of over the top caricatures of like two Wong Fu, nor was it Philadelphia, where it was just about how, what a horrible burden and trauma it is, trauma porn, yeah, yeah. And so it actually gave the gay community of the nineties an opportunity to to laugh again when they hadn't in a long time. We talked about gender in this film. So it doesn't or, if it passes Bechdel, it's just barely and it also has very interesting things to say about gender, because there's a lot about the performance of gender, even when one is cisgender, and the ways in which we are performing at all times, which is really interesting.
Speaker 1:I don't think an intentional commentary on the point of our movie makers, and yet it is very much there when we see the, especially in the coaching that Armand is giving to Albert to try and help him to pass as straight. Speaking of passing as straight, we talked a lot about the heteronormativity that is overlaying on this gay film. So there's the sort of heteronormative idea, this notion, which has caused a lot of it's, my understanding, has caused a lot of trouble for gay couples in this question of like. Which one is the man, as if even in same-sex couples there's one person who takes on the male role and one person who takes on the female.
Speaker 3:And I would like to say, like we didn't mention it before, but the fact that Senator Keighley says how many mothers do you have? And he says just one. This is my mother, albert, that's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a little problematic, Like I wish he had said. Actually, I don't have a mother, I've got two fathers Albert.
Speaker 3:This is Albert and you are my dad and like I get what they were going for and I don't think that like it's one of those things where, like it's a yes end, it's a both ends, because there's something wonderful and amazing about him claiming the maternal nurturing role for Albert. Don't want to be one of those like essentialists, like men can't be mothers, it's just that it's.
Speaker 1:It fits into this heteronormative script well, in particular because even within the film, like albert referred to himself as auntie albert, and so I feel like, like even within the film itself, we could have had val. Now I don't know if the 90s they could have done it. Yeah. I feel like today we could have Val say something like I don't have a mother. That's the woman who gave birth to me. This is my auntie, albert, who raised me, or something. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Anyway, but yes, yes. So heteronormativity is still marbled throughout this film, despite the fact that its protagonists are a same-sex couple. One of the ways that shows up is what I named before, that we see the queer couple changing who they are, changing their apartment, changing everything about themselves to make the straight couple feel comfortable in the queer couple's home.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:For the sake of this straight couple, for the sake of their straight son, who is able to get married when they cannot. And he is a goddamn villain for that, for asking his dad to go back in the closet, for sending his auntie Albert away because he's embarrassing. Fuck you, val. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, he is clearly not mature enough to get married.
Speaker 1:Seriously, seriously. Race in this film is problematic. There aren't very many characters of color, but we do have Hank Azaria, for very briefly on screen, but in an offensive way, and we also have what was intended as shorthand to point to the Keelys and the other conservative Republicans hypocrisy which ended up reiterating harmful stereotypes about over-sexualized young Black women in the form of the sassy prostitute who was present when Senator Jackson died.
Speaker 1:And then the very last thing that I wanted to just name is Robin Williams' role in this film. Name is Robin Williams' role in this film as sort of like you named kind of fulfilling the role of that football coach who starts the Gay-Straight Alliance at a high school after Matthew Shepard has died, as sort of the safe, solidly established masculine presence that makes it safe for the more marginalized folks to show up. So Williams played that role for his co-star, nathan Lane, and also for a lot of the viewers. It's also interesting we named it. Despite his kind of natural talent for big and bombastic performance, he plays this one pretty, pretty demure, pretty quiet.
Speaker 3:That actually, I think, speaks to his talent. I mean because when he does do, when he did do more dramatic roles, he did amazing, amazing job, and because he was capable of being so bombastic, it would be easy to pigeonhole him that way, but he didn't do that to himself and I'm going to tear up because I miss that man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and, and I think that he made the right call I mean, he I don't know if it was for these reasons, like what I read said that he, he had just come off of Mrs Doubtfire and he didn't want to do another role in drag, and I think that that was the right call for many reasons, not least of which was part of what was funny about Doubtfire was that he wasn't being in drag, was not a part of his gender identity.
Speaker 1:It was not a part of his sexual identity. It was a costume. And that's part of what was funny about Doubtfire. That is not. Albert. Albert is not. It's not a costume. When Albert dresses up as Starina, it is a manifestation of Starina is Albert Albert is Starina yeah, yeah, and, and lane, I think, was able to portray that in a way that maybe williams could have, maybe I don't know, but for sure lane did and pulled it off, and I'm really glad that we have this.
Speaker 3:Um lane has another, another actor who is just a phenomenal talent. I don't know if you've seen Only Murders in the Building, but he has a small role in that, where he's terrifying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've seen it. Yeah, yeah, he's really good. He's really good. And the chemistry between them when I watched it. It's funny because when I watched it like a month or so ago, I was like there isn't that much chemistry between them. But re-watching it now a second time, like a re-rewatch, I realized it's not that there's not chemistry, it's that they're playing it as an old, comfortable married couple. So there's like sexual tension between Williams and what's her name? No, oh, baranski Baranski. There's like a sexual tension where she's in, it's clear she is attracted to him and he's like uncomfortable and also kind of likes it. And I don't get a lot of sexual chemistry between Lane and Williams, but they're meant to have been together for 20 years.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so there's not much unresolved sexual tension once you've been together.
Speaker 1:for 20 years, and so watching it with that in mind, looking for that. There is physicality, they touch one another, it's comfortable and that's actually appropriate for a couple who's been together for so long. They sold it. I really enjoyed it. No-transcript at least in some way served that role. Did I forget anything?
Speaker 3:The only thing is we talked about how La Cage Aux Folles what it's based on, is older, from prior to the AIDS epidemic decimating the queer community, and so that meant that the original that it was based on did not come in with preconceived notions about what it means to be gay because it's tragic, which I think is a blessing. I think it's wonderful that we were able to create this hilariously funny film that made me laugh until my stomach hurt, that celebrates queer love and does not require the like. Here's the you know, 15 minutes of like we got to talk about AIDS. Or the 15 minutes of like man. We got to be sad right now and just just focus on the joy. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Cool. Well, that was fun. Next week, I think you're going to bring me some deep thoughts.
Speaker 3:Yes, I am bringing you my deep thoughts on Men in Black. Oh, yes, I love Men in Black, the Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones film that I wish I could find it again, cause I remember there being either a poster or a commercial or something, because you know they're they're supposed to be nameless um agents, and so where they go, mr Jones, mr Smith.
Speaker 4:And I just thought that was hilarious, mr Smith, and I just thought that was hilarious.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. My. My favorite line from that is you know what?
Speaker 3:the difference is between you and me. I make this look good, yes, and he does.
Speaker 4:All right. Well, I'll look forward to that. See you soon. See you soon Do you like stickers. Sure.
Speaker 1:We all do. If you head over to guy girls mediacom slash, sign up and share your address with us. We'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is professor umlaut by Kevin McLeod fromcompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember, pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?