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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about The Nightmare Before Christmas
What's this? What's this? There's overthinking everywhere!
This week’s episode of Deep Thoughts takes a closer look at Tim Burton’s The Nightmare Before Christmas (which was actually directed by Henry Selick) to see what unintentional lessons the 1993 Hallow-Christmas classic taught us. The film serves as a fascinating metaphor for toxic masculinity and it makes an excellent point about the difference between cultural appreciation and appropriation. Also, Tracie raves about the agency and badassery of Sally, who uses her knowledge and skills to literally sew herself back together–but the sisters lament that this amazing character is relegated to the status of love interest. And of course, the music, artistry, and delightfully bizarre humor is still enjoyable and iconic more than 30 years later.
Throw on some headphones to feel like your old bony self again!
Mentioned in this episode:
Nightmare Before Christmas as a parable of toxic masculinity
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/the-nightmare-before-christmas-and-toxic-masculinity
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
Holy cow I frigging love that analogy.
Speaker 2:She uses her life skills to repair herself what others might deem stupid shit. You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. We're sisters, tracy and Emily, collectively known as the guy girls. Every week we take turns rewatching and reconsidering beloved media and sharing what we learn. Come overthink with us and if you get value from the show, please consider supporting us. You can become a patron on Patreon or send us a one-time tip through Ko-fi. Both links are in the show notes and thanks. I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? Today, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1993 classic Tim Burton's Nightmare Before Christmas with my sister, emily Guy-Burken, and with you. Let's dive in. Okay, em. So the full title is, in fact, tim Burton's Nightmare Before Christmas, mm-hmm. And what do you know or remember about this film?
Speaker 1:So I remember when it came out, I was probably 14. It was 93. So 93, so I was 14. I remember seeing it and really liking it. I remember that you really liked Sally and wanted to go as her for Halloween at some point. I don't know if you ever did I didn't and I thought that would be an awesome Halloween costume. I remember details of it that I found charming, like the fact that the mayor of Halloween town has two faces, yeah, and the the way that Sally's like Dr Frankenstein creator I don't remember what he's called, but he would like Finkelstein, finkelstein, finkelstein, oh, okay, and he would lift his, his skull up and scratch his brain, like I remember being delightfully creeped out by that, yeah, and some of the iconic scenes, like that curl, that like fiddlehead Fiddlehead curl.
Speaker 2:Hill Hill that he walks down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I just remember being really charmed by it. I do recall at some point being a little I'm not sure what the word is, but recognizing what holidays were in the holiday wood kind of got me a little bit, because it was just like I get it. I get it, but at the same time like why is St Patrick's Day in here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah I want to mention that a little bit, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then the last thing and this is the thing that like most strongly I associate with this is my best friend had a blog I think she still does for years and when she first had her eldest, who is now 19, she was writing about how he was like exploring the world and in her head she kept thinking he was like Jack Skeleton going what's this, what's this? And so anytime I see, like a baby or a toddler, like just really entranced by the world, jack Skellington is singing in my head.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I feel like, you know, that was not something I could get as a 14 year old because I, you know, I liked kids, but I hadn't seen one up close and personal as he or she was discovering the world. But I feel like that was something that they nailed, which is that childlike wonder that an adult can have upon finding something so completely outside of their personal experience. So, those are the majority of my thanks about this movie. Cool, so tell me, why are we discussing it today?
Speaker 2:Well, a couple weeks ago, you were like we should plan stuff for the holidays, like what should we do to talk about on Halloween? And I was like, yeah, nightmare Before Christmas, of course, yeah, so that's why we're doing it now, because it's Halloween.
Speaker 2:I was like, yeah, nightmare Before Christmas, of course, yeah, so that's why we're doing it now, because it's Halloween and, by the way, I keep calling it Nightmare Before Elm Street, yeah, when we talk about it, when we're planning, yeah, whoops, yeah. So I mean, that's why now, this is one of the ones that's the furniture of my brain, for sure, for sure. So 93, I was a junior in high school but, um, I just, I just loved it, I really loved it, and then I kind of forgot about it, you know. But then it has become, it really has become a cultural phenomenon and so, uh, you know, I think all of those kinds of cultural phenomenon are worthy of a deeper look, so wanted to give it a deep thoughts treatment in time for Halloween. So here we are.
Speaker 2:So some of the things I'm going to want to talk about, and I'm not exactly sure how I'm going to arrange this, so we'll figure it out together. But I want to talk about gender, because we always talk about gender, and I want to talk about like, and I want to talk about, like, what message, like, what is the and the moral of the story? Like, what is it for this film? Because I think there are a couple potential and some are, like, more pleasant than others. So that's something that I want to talk about.
Speaker 2:I want to talk about tricksters and sort of the difference between kind of a benevolent-ish trickster in Jack and a malicious trickster in Oogie Boogie. Oh, oogie Boogie, oh yeah. And I want to talk about the place of this movie, like the look of it, you know, and the aesthetic, because it really was new, and the ways in which, like in many ways kind of mainstream theatrical release like Disney, disney owns it and like didn't know what to do with it and that's why it was initially a touchstone and not a Disney release, so some of those things and kind of its place in culture and how it has become completely embraced, even though it wasn't quite when it was first released not that it was panned, it was not panned at all, but it didn't have the kind of impact initially.
Speaker 2:It was like a 51, not a 51 million dollar. Take versus aladdin the following year from disney was like 217 million.
Speaker 1:So well, anyway, some of that has, because it was so groundbreaking. It was the the, the thing that you always get with, uh, with creative media where, like they don't know how to market it right, right, and disney was a little afraid of it.
Speaker 2:I think so, and the artistry of it too. I mean, I talk about the look of it, but this is a stop motion like this is not a computer generated. This is like hundreds of clay puppets and 20 sound stages, like it's really. It's two years of work with hundreds of people, and that's which is the case for all animation.
Speaker 2:I don't want to suggest otherwise, and also like there's something in my mind deeply magical, that Jack Skellington existed in 3D. So that's a piece of it as well. So we'll get to all those. Let me see if I can do a synopsis. I will do my best to be quick. It's not easy, as you know. We were just talking about a recent one with Jaws where you didn't finish your synopsis until we were like 40 minutes in. We'll see what I can do.
Speaker 2:I'll do my best, I'll do my best. Okay, so we open with a little bit of narration, where we're introduced to this place in the forest where, if you wonder where holidays come from, then you know, take a look, it's all in rhyme. And there are these six trees with like kind of carving, colored carvings on them, facing each other of different holidays. And I agree with you, the six that are chosen are like huh, like total head scratcher in my mind. So Christmas, easter, thanksgiving, independence Day, valentine's Day and St Patrick's Day what?
Speaker 1:Independence Day. Well, in case, thanksgiving and the rest of it didn't make it clear that this is America? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, Exactly. Well, in case, thanksgiving and the rest of it didn't make it clear that this is america? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. This is yeah. So these are american holidays. Well, because that is, without thanksgiving and um and independence day, you could argue that these are just christian holidays christian holidays yeah, agreed which would be a thing Like that would be like. All right, this is the Christian wood.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, anyway, okay. So we get this narration, we get these six trees and we're going to learn about where holiday comes from, holidays come from. And then the kind of jack-o'-lantern carving opens up as a door and we go in. So now we're in Halloween town, opens up as a door and we go in. So now we're in Halloween town and through a uh, the first of 10 or 11 Danny Elfman songs that are like Gilbert and Sullivan esque, like like that caliber, we learn all about um Halloween and Halloween town. It's their job to put on Halloween and we've got werewolves and we've got vampires and we've got creepy crawlies and ghosts and riches and just goblins and it's creepy, delicious, and the overseer, the top guy at all of these things, is this king of the pumpkins. Actually, we don't know his name, that yet in the beginning, but when we meet him he is um, like sleepy, hollow, jack-o'-lantern head and like suited body and he is on fire literally. I'm like actual flames. I'm not using slang. He's on fire, he douses the flames in this like public fountain that has green water. And when he arises out of that, we meet Jack Skellington as we all know him, as he's become this beloved figure, this like stick, thin, well-dressed gentleman with a very expressive skull for a head. Okay, so he is completely beloved, like everybody, like you're the best, we love you. You're a witch's dream. Like they're all like chasing after him like paparazzi and he's like thank you, thank you. And he like keeps backing away and he's clearly very uncomfortable. They get by the mayor, he goes off so unbeknownst to his subjects and followers, he is very unhappy. He just it's like it's on we. It's the same thing every year and like there's no joy in it anymore and we get a song all about jack's on we.
Speaker 2:We meet sally and we get a song all about Jax Onwee. We meet Sally. She's a ragdoll, like humanoid, human-formed ragdoll who has, like all of her, there's a lot of stitches all over her, so we see her escape, her quote-unquote father and creator. It's sort of a Frankenstein's relationship. Dr Finkelstein, we hear his name twice and he's credited just as mad scientist, which is an interesting thing. He is in a motorized wheelchair and has like a duck bill with teeth and also that skull cap that you mentioned that opens so we can see his brain. She is constantly. We learn that she repeatedly sort of poisons him, tricks him in order to get out and escape the lair so that she can, you know, have some bodily autonomy. And he's always like you're not ready for this and anyway, yeah, but Sally's amazing, sally's fantastic. Yes, in fact, I believe sally got the raw end of the deal in this movie. But we'll get to that. Yeah, I would agree with that, we'll get to that.
Speaker 2:So jack walks all night halloween town and we see the next morning they're freaking out because they don't know where jack is, because the mayor is ready to start planning next year, because they've only got 364 days, and Jack has found that place that we saw from the very, very beginning with the six holiday trees, and he gets sucked in to Christmastown. So he's in Christmastown doing the what's this? What's this about the snow and the whatever? And that landscape is very Dr Seuss Grinch the Grinch who stole Christmas, kind of a feel, and he's just like super excited, like this is so different, it's so cool, it's like the injection of energy that his ennui needed. So, yeah, so Halloween Town's freaking out. They don't know where Jack is. They've looked everywhere and like everybody's talking about all the different places that they looked, and then all of a sudden he comes back on this snowmobile with this big giant sack full of stuff from Christmas Town with his ghost dog in tow Zero, I love Zero, awesome. And he's like super excited and he's trying and he says we need to have a town meeting immediately.
Speaker 2:So they have a meeting and he's trying to tell the residents of Halloween town how awesome Christmas town is and that they should like do it, like do Christmas. And they do not get it, like they just don't understand. And so he kind of puts things on hold and he goes to Dr Finkelstein because he wants to use the scientific method. He's like reading all the books, all the Christmas stories, and he's still just there's something quintessential about Christmas that he cannot grasp. And so he decides he's going to use a scientific method to understand it. So we see him do all these like experiments on Christmas bulbs and on presents and bows and different things, you know, trying to figure it out.
Speaker 2:Sally sends him a little gift basket that has this she's made this cool. He opens a bottle and like the vapor that comes out of the bottle like turns into a little butterfly. So she sends him a gift and then she runs away. She had, oh, I missed this. This feels important.
Speaker 2:Actually, this time she escaped by just tossing herself from like a fourth story observatory and then stitching herself back together where she has fallen apart, quite literally, with needle and thread she like sews her leg back on, her arm back on, and that was that was the plan. Uh, after having um dosed, her father quotes around that again with uh, some some sleeping potion, uh in in his soup and and that was very tricky he wouldn't eat it until she tasted it. So she uses this trick spoon that's like got holes in it. So he thinks that she's, so she's, she's very clever, she's very clever, she's very clever. So Eureka Jack gets it.
Speaker 2:He thinks he understands and he has decided Halloween Town is going to take over Christmas and he is going to take over the role of Sandy Claus that's what he calls Santa Claus and so he is calling each of the residents and giving them all jobs to do to like recreate and improve the elements of Christmas. So there's like a trio of musicians that he plays like jingle bells on some actual sleigh bells and asks them to like improvise and and and use that melody and, um, he's got people you know making toys, like vampires are are making toys and they make this like decoy duck, that like has like teeth, and this doll, this bat doll, and I mean it's all like creepified versions. He calls these three characters called lock, shock and barrel and, by the way, so they're. They look like trick-or-treaters. There's a devil and like a I don't know like a goblin, and then a witch, and actually one of the three, one of the two male the goblin or the devil, is Paul Rubens voices, really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh.
Speaker 2:So he gives them instructions. He wants them to go kidnap Santa Claus. Don't hurt him, but go get him and don't involve that. No good, boogie boogie. And they say, sure thing, no problem. So they go off. Then he talks to Sally. He wants Sally to. She's so talented with a needle and thread she's going to make his Santa Claus costume.
Speaker 2:Well, meanwhile Sally has had a vision. She's a medium of some kind. So she's had a vision. She was like plucking petals off of a thistle, like he loves me, he loves me not kind of a thing. She wasn't saying those things, but she was plucking the petals, kind of in that kind of a gesture. She does have a crush on Jack. Oh, yes, very much. So we know that when she does the butterfly vapor thing and then runs away, she also sings about him. Yeah, so she's admiring him from afar, so she's plucking the petals after she gives him the butterfly vapor bottle and suddenly the stem turns into a Christmas tree and then it goes up in flames. So she's had this premonition that this is not going to go well and she's trying to tell Jack and he is not will not listen.
Speaker 2:He's just not listening. Okay, so we've seen all of that. Now we cut back over to Lock, shock and Barrel're. Like of course we're gonna tell boogie, uh, I mean duh, so and they're. They do this like super creepy thing where they're tossing like weapons and stuff into this like clawfoot bathtub, which then the feet actually like move, and it is their vehicle and the songs that the way they're singing about Sandy Claws, like they're going to get him and kick him in the head and lock him up for 90 years and see what makes him tick, and I mean it's.
Speaker 1:It's not deliciously creepy, it's just creepy, oh Santa.
Speaker 2:Oh, says the good Jewish girl, ok, so, so, so they go off. We know they're going in their creepy tub that walks to get Santa Claus and they're going to do exactly what Jack asked them not to. So, and at some point, I think at that point, we meet Oogie Boogie. So Oogie Boogie is a boogie man.
Speaker 2:He is like a rough burlap bag with a face and um, he's really into gambling so all of his like, like all of his paraphernalia, all of his stuff there he uses dice a lot um, and there are uh one-armed bandits like what is that called um slot machines and there's a roulette wheel and there are cards, like so he's all about gambling.
Speaker 2:Okay, so jack has gotten the halloween town like excited, like they are like into it and they've changed. They have like a countdown like how many days to Halloween and they've covered over Halloween and it says Christmas and so we see things counting down. We also cut over to Christmas town where we see them doing you know their thing, like getting ready for Christmas, like getting ready for Christmas. So in Halloween Town, lock Shock and Barrel come back with something in a big black bag in the tub. We got him, we got him Jack. And they open it up and it's the Easter Bunny and Jack's like this is not him, you did the wrong thing. And the Easter Bunny comes out and like gets like super, super scared by one of the Halloween town residents and like dives back into the back and like just shivering. And Jack is like trying to apologize to him and sends Lock Shock and Beryl, they take him back and don't hurt him and go get Santa Claus, sandy Claus, okay, so now we're in. It's like two days until Christmas or something. We see Christmastown Santa's talking to Mrs Claus, he's reviewing his list again, like there aren't even that many naughty kids. And then there's a knock at the door. Who could that be? It's Lock, shock and Barrel. They kidnap him and he's like you can't do this, you. They kidnap him and he's like you can't do this, you can't do this anyway. So, um, they bring him back to jack. Jack now has the santa suit on. It's like weird, it's like you know, hanging on this literal skeleton right and and like a big beard on this expressive skull face, and he's like something's missing. And then they, the kids, come in with santa and he's like, oh, that's what's missing. And he takes the hat and puts the hat on. Meanwhile, dr finkelstein has made these like ghastly skeletal flying reindeer and they and they turned a coffin into a sleigh. So it's like the elements of Halloween, like reconfigured into Christmas.
Speaker 2:Sally is like this can't happen, this is going to be really, really bad. She's trying to save Jack from himself. So she we know she's like a potions master. So she dumps stuff into that fountain that I mentioned in the beginning and it causes this big fog like fog, machine fog, and Jack is like, oh, we can't take off in this, we can't even see. And then Zero, kind of, is like trying to get his attention. He's like, not now, zero. And then he realizes zero, much like rudolph, has this big red nose and so much like rudolph zero has to go to the front of the team to to light the way so they take off anyway. So he goes into the real world.
Speaker 2:Jack goes into the real world as this, like creepified santa and is delivering the christmas presents that halloween town made and he thinks he's doing a good job. And meanwhile we as the viewers get to see the results where children and parents alike are like terrified and and traumatized by these presents that he's leaving like shrunken heads and like dolls that bite and you know things like that. So they people are called. We see it. We cut to a scene in the real world still where people are calling the police, the military gets called in and actually shoot him down out of the sky. So Halloween Town was watching through this witch's cauldron. They think he's dead.
Speaker 2:So at the same time, the Lock, shock and Barrel have delivered Santa Claus to Oogie Boogie, who is torturing him and playing some sort of gambling game with Santa's life and belittling him the whole time. Sally comes to try and rescue santa. Very clever girl, she takes one of her legs off and like props it somewhere to like lure oogie away while she is rescuing Santa, like removes her hands, which, like logistically, how did she sew them back on then? But whatever, with her teeth, I guess and so the hands are like untying Santa and like she's actually doing a great job. But then Oogie realizes what's happening and actually captures her too and she's like jack will stop you. And then the announcement that jack has died.
Speaker 2:So oogie's, like all the more emboldened, cut back to the real world he hasn't died. He's fallen into a cemetery and was caught by the open arms of an angel grave statue what is that called Tombstone and sings this other song about not getting it, realizing he didn't get Christmas. But now he's seeing what he actually did have in Halloween town and I hope it's not too late. So he goes back to Halloween town, he rescues Sally and Santa Santa's, like he's making apologies to Santa. Jack is making apologies to Santa Santa's like you are insane. You should listen to her. She's the only one with any kind of brains here speaking about Sally. Um, santa and Sally both assure Jack that it's not too late.
Speaker 2:Santa goes and saves Christmas. Um, and then like, just like the final moment, as a um, I don't know gesture of goodwill, santa flies over Halloween town and makes it snow and says happy Halloween and Jack replies Merry Christmas to Santa. And it's snowing, and so that sort of what's? This moment that we saw much earlier, like the rest of Halloween Town, gets Sally wanders off, kind of sad, back to that fiddlehead hill that we saw at the beginning, that you and I mentioned earlier, and I didn't mention the synopsis, but y'all, there's a fiddlehead hill with the moon, the full moon, always directly behind it, and Jack has realized that Sally has always been looking out for him and and and has feelings for him and and he, he returns them, and so we have a final song between them where they sing that they were made for each other.
Speaker 2:One piece that I missed in the synopsis that I do want to go back and name when Jack saves Sally and Santa, he and Oogie have a fight of Halloween monsters, fight of, you know, halloween monsters and jack wins ultimately by pulling a thread and unraveling the seams of this burlap sack and what's inside is just a pile of bugs that then kind of like the pile, um, disintegrates, like the bugs all fall and, and they're, you know, killed in the machinery of the roulette wheel. Santa steps on one. It's gross, but that feels like an important moment of symbolism. It was.
Speaker 1:It's. That's another moment that really stuck with me, Like the. The visual of that has stayed with me for years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So so that's the basic plot. Um, a couple of like in addition to Paul Rubens. Like Catherine O'Hara is Sally. She's amazing, yeah, who we just talked about recently when we talked about Beetlejuice.
Speaker 2:So, another Tim Burton film. Yeah, tim burton property and property that's actually another thing I want to name. Tim burton had very little to do with the actual production of this film, so it was his idea he had written this poem, uh, that he had always kind of wanted to do something with, and um was actually working at disney when he wrote it, and so Disney had the intellectual property rights for this poem and it finally, like, was able to get a green light for this stop motion, and that was specific. He wanted stop motion, he did not want traditional animation, and so he was a producer and he was like the original idea guy. But Henry Selick was the director on this and burton was present for like maybe two weeks of the two years of production. So this is not a tim burton like.
Speaker 2:He did not lovingly craft this in the way that he did some of the other films that bear his name, which is in part, I think, why it's called Tim Burton's Nightmare Before Christmas, because he wasn't actually involved in the production and they wanted to trade at least a little on his name. So, poor Henry Selick, like, is the you know winning trivia? Answer Right, because, like, who directed who directed Nightmare Before Christmas? Like we all know, the answer is Tim Burton. It wasn't. So, that's just a little like factoid before we get started.
Speaker 1:So you were naming some of the voice actors.
Speaker 2:Oh right, chris Sarandon is the speaking voice of Jack but, Danny Elfman himself sings Jack, which is worth noting. William Hickey is Dr Finkelstein. I don't know, I don't know him.
Speaker 1:I know the name. I'm sure I would recognize his face.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then Glenn Shaddix is the mayor, oh you know Glenn Shaddix.
Speaker 1:Yes, he played Otho in Beetlejuice. Oh, okay, cool.
Speaker 2:Ken Page is Oogie Boogie. I don't think I know that actor. Yeah, I don't know the name either. And then, um, so ed ivory is santa claus and also does the initial uh narration. When we, when we see the the grove in the first place, patrick stewart recorded narration which is on the soundtrack but is not in the theatrical release movie so those are some of the the voice talents.
Speaker 2:All right, so I want to talk about I want to start with gender. I'm going to start with gender. Uh, I'll start with bechdel, because it's easy.
Speaker 1:Nope, doesn't, doesn't pass, um is there, oh, one of the lock, shock and barrel.
Speaker 2:One of them is, yes, female shock. I believe it's shock is, but she and sally don't talk to each other they do not talk to each other.
Speaker 2:Mrs claus has a name besides mrs claus. He, uh, santa refers to her by her first name. I don't remember what it is at the moment, but we don't even see her. I mean, she's just like background wifey. There are some witches who are, who are present as female. There's one of the residents of halloween town is like a mom and her son, who has, who has like a leash on, oh, yes, yes. The son reads like Pugsley Adams, kind of Um, and the mom is like kind of.
Speaker 2:I don't know, just fat and creepy, so uh, so yeah it, it definitely does not pass back down, and I and I want to talk about Sally, cause I feel like Sally as a character is one of those moments that we have talked about a lot on deep thoughts, where our pop culture gave with one hand and took with the other.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Sally is amazing in terms of how much agency she is given Right, like because her circumstances don't give her agency. She frigging, takes it over and over and over again. You know, and and Finkelstein Dr Finkelstein, the mad scientist, like thinks, like she comes back at one point and he says, I figured you'd come back, like as if she needs him, but he's got her arm. She just came back to claim her arm, not because she wants or needs or, you know, like it's not through any kind of affection or dependency. She's getting her arm back literally. And the bravery with which she just dives off of that observation tower and then just sews herself back up when she gets to the bottom, even, even the act of sewing back up, the skill with a needle which we see over and over again, which she uses to repair herself.
Speaker 1:Holy cow.
Speaker 2:I freaking love that analogy she uses her life skills to repair herself. Thank you, Henry Selleck. And, and here's the take with the other and her entire purpose in using her agency is jack mm-hmm she thinks she's in love with him and you know she's trying to protect him. And she's trying to please him and she seems to not realize what a fucking badass she is, unless he's looking Mm. Hmm, realize what a fucking badass she is, unless he's looking.
Speaker 1:You know and fuck you, henry selleck so one thing I'm thinking about is we've talked about this before like with um, who framed roger rabbit what if this story were told from Sally's point of view? Yeah, what that might do. And it wouldn't change the fact that she's doing everything for Jack, but it would make it clearer that, like she is, she is the protagonist, she is the one trying to do the right thing and not ignoring all of the the signs that this is a bad idea yeah, although if if the measure of a protagonist is whether or not they change jack, is the protagonist jack is the protagonist.
Speaker 1:Yes, um yeah, I'll give you that. It's the. It'd be interesting to see because like she's kind of a cassandra character cassandra totally yes, yes, she is um and so to see a story from that point of view, rather than it being like the dramatic irony of we all know that she's correct right, nobody else does so just a reminder to our listeners cassandra is the character from greek myth who saw the future coming and kept telling people.
Speaker 2:Well she.
Speaker 1:She was cursed, she was. She was blessed and cursed at the same time. She was blessed to see the future and cursed with the um, with the fact that no one would ever believe her right right.
Speaker 2:So, um right, she totally is. And yeah, yeah, I'm actually just right now thinking about alien and like ripley as a cassandra and it is from her preview and she's the only one who lives.
Speaker 1:Anyway, we'll do alien one day, yeah, um, we've referenced it enough now well, the the fact that she doesn't you know what I'm like, that that is going to stick with me. The fact that there is sally does not change from beginning to end, other than she is open with jack about her feelings rather than keeping them to herself at the beginning.
Speaker 2:But he seeks her out in order for that to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:She's like standing in snow on that hill.
Speaker 1:And he's like my dear friend, if I may Damn you, henry, Selleck, she doesn't change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so while we're talking about gender, I read an interesting take that I will link to in the show notes, where someone said if you replaced scary so in Halloween Town, scary is the epitome of existence. That's what we're all aiming for. And Jack wins because he's the scariest, but he doesn't even really want it. It's not kind of. It's not kind of who. Where he is now, he will put on super scared like at one point to intimidate lock, shock and barrel.
Speaker 2:He like puts on a super scary face so he can do it and he does it with Oogie Boogie, but you get the feeling that it's not actually kind of his like default comfortable state.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:So this commentator that I read said what if this is a commentary on like masculinity? Replace scary with manly and like go through, like just iterate it through, where they're all like manliness is like the epitome of good manly. Manly and like Jack can do it, but it doesn't love it, it's not really, and then he's and and oogie, boogie in particular, talk about it.
Speaker 1:Toxic scare is toxic scariality do I need to lend you my uh, my poetic license?
Speaker 2:yes, totally toxic scariness. Um, because he mocks jack for not being scary enough, he mocks santa like, which actually makes sense if, if scariness is like the epitome if manliness is the epitome.
Speaker 2:And now this guy who's supposed to be the leader of this other whole realm and he's like this mushy, wearing a dress like not at all scary like he. So he kind of belittles santa in that way, um and, and so you sort of see too, the use of the masculinity or scariness, like with Oogie Boogie again, is like it's harmful, hurtful to others.
Speaker 1:Toxic, one might say.
Speaker 2:One might call it toxic to others, right, and also completely empty once one takes the kind of facade off. I thought that was a really interesting like potential take on this. You know thinking about gender.
Speaker 1:Well, and in particular because you were saying that you know, if scary is the ultimate, the word I was thinking of to describe Santa is kindly, and so that is as if Jack is saying there's another way to be a man and blundering his way through trying to be more like that, trying to embody the kindness of that kind of masculinity.
Speaker 2:Right, right. It also makes sense that all the other residents of Halloween town are making these toys in this scary way, because that's the epitome of existence. So, of course, the duck on wheels is a scary duck.
Speaker 1:Well, and it fits with the way that we see toxic masculinity play out in our world. Uh-huh In that, like no, I am being kind, I'm giving her a compliment, right.
Speaker 2:But she'd be prettier if she smiled more. Why is that not a good thing? Yes, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. So so that was one like potential, like the moral of the story is that I thought was really interesting. That was really interesting. Another like on the I think a moral could be stay in your lane. And in fact, I read one person which I won't link to because I didn't care for it who was like be an expert, jack, of all trades are no good. Why do you think the guy's name is Jack? No, no, I reject that, I reject that. I reject that. Stay in your lane is ultimately the moral of this story. So, and and could it be a parable about cultural appropriation? Right, so Jack was engaging in cultural appreciation, in what's this, what's this right?
Speaker 2:like he was getting excited about these things that were new to him. His mistake was not enjoying christmas town. His mistake was thinking he could do sandy claws better than sandy claws himself well, it's very mediocre, white man type response. Like, let's improve this. I can improve this, yeah, and that parable feels much more useful to me than just plain stay in your lane, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and and even the things that were exciting Jack about Christmastown were things that he could bring to Halloween town. So, for instance, gift giving could become part of Halloween and so and they'd be scary gifts, because that's what they do, but they're taking something. So there's a way to have a cultural exchange that is not appropriation, that is not harmful to the people you're borrowing from or appreciating.
Speaker 2:Well, they even show that in the, in the scene with the snow right, like we see, like a creature from the Black Lagoon and I want to say a werewolf making snow angels Right and so like playing with the snow, having a snowball fight was a way that they had cultural appreciation of what was native to Christmastown, in Halloween Town.
Speaker 2:That did no harm to the kids in the real world, nor to anyone involved, did no harm. So that felt like something that I was like, oh okay, yeah, all right, I can hold that, I can take that, and even the ways in which the cultural appreciation re-energized Jack's ideas for how to kind of live in his cultural milieu.
Speaker 1:Well, it's a really good metaphor for creativity. Yeah, when you are a creative person for creating whatever, there will be a time where you feel like you've done it all before, and so immersing yourself in something completely different from what you normally do is a great way to re-energize yourself for what you do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was cool, that was cool. So tricksters, let me move on to tricksters. The foil between I don't know if that's the right word rivalry, I guess, between Oogie Boogie the boogeyman and Jack Skellington the pumpkin king. They're both tricksters, right, but Oogie Boogie is the villain of this film, the villain of this film, and so it's not his trickster status that makes him the villain right. There's a malice and a meanness to.
Speaker 2:Oogie Boogie that Jack simply doesn't have, and I think that's worth noting. And it's interesting to me that one of the ways that our movie makers conveyed this toxicness whether or not we're talking about an allegory with masculinity of Oogie Boogie is the gambling, and in particular unfair gambling. He says the dice are weighted because that's more fun for him.
Speaker 2:We watch him, he throws dice and gets a result he doesn't like, so he shakes the dice are weighted because that's more fun for him. We watch him. He throws dice and gets a result he doesn't like. So he shakes the table to get one that he does like, when Santa and Sally are both tied up and I don't understand what game he was playing, but something with their lives at stake, with their, their lives, um, at stake.
Speaker 2:And, uh, he employs cards and the slot machines and the roulette wheel as weapons against jack, which jack just like, deftly avoids, you know, and sort of some, like very long-limbed skeleton martial arts dance routine thing, um which I don't I I don't know what to do with that symbolism, honestly, of the long-limit dancing martial artist trickster, skeleton, skeleton outwitting the boogeyman bugs in a sack, gambler, trickster, not sure what to do with that.
Speaker 1:Sometimes a long-lived martial arts dancing skeleton is just a cigar.
Speaker 2:I guess so. I guess so, but I do think that there is a lesson in there about intention and tricks that feels like appropriate in a kid's movie or a young people's movie.
Speaker 1:The thing that this is bringing up for me is to Christmastown. Jack Skellington is a villain, yeah, but he is doing these things and they're terrible things, but in good faith Like it is a good faith attempt to do something that he's not. He's just not built for, he's not qualified for, he's not qualified for, he's not qualified for. And Oogie, boogie and Lock, shock and Barrel are acting in bad faith at all times.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's something that the last few years I've been grappling with. Like it can be when you are dealing with someone who is acting in bad faith, there is no meeting them on common ground because they don't do it, they refuse to accept common ground, and the only thing you can do is destroy them. I'm saying that in terms of this, but in our political arena, when you are dealing with people who are consistently acting in bad faith and refusing to speak truth or accept rules, it's really difficult to know how to respond to them. And we're not all you know, dancing martial arts, skeletons, tricksters, right, Because you know you really are trying to work around these, these gambling weapons, basically, that are weighted against you. Yeah, so, like, I think that that's. It's an interesting thing to put in a kid's movie, because it's not the sort of thing you think of teaching kids. Yeah, Um, it's definitely not something I understood until I was an adult. That the the the difficulty of dealing with people who act in bad faith.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Um, even though this, this was a an example I saw as a 14 year old, but one of hundreds of things that are furniture in your brain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, so, so that was a like an interesting thing that I wanted to name, and I'm going to close out my things. I wanted deep thoughts. I wanted to bring with two sort of visual moments, symbols, um. So the first is Dr Finkelstein, and so he decides to make a new um bride I guess I don't, I don't know what to call uh, that cause Sally's ungrateful and keeps drugging him.
Speaker 2:Um, and what he makes is like another version of himself, like so much so that he opens that skull and like takes half his brain and sticks it in the new creature and it's like the conversations we will have and, uh, and we see her briefly at the end and she's, you know, like a carbon copy of him and um, like the visual, the visual imagery of that of like not being happy until I have a carbon copy of myself just just really sat with me from this person who we saw was so controlling and and paternalistic and just like gross the fact that they gave him a jewish sounding name like I don't even want to touch so I'm just naming it I'm not gonna go any deeper than that, like yeah, ouch, I wish that hadn't been the case and also frankenstein, the stein anytime you put a stein after something it's gonna sound sort of jewish and so like, okay, I just don't want to deal with it.
Speaker 1:I don't want to deal with it the, uh, the idea that I mean, because there are so many parents who require their children to be miniature versions of themselves, um, or to do the things that they were unable to do, and, like you know, they, they shape them and push them, and, uh, it calls to mind, like what are the sallies of the world who have parents like that to do other than I mean? Like this is we were talking about this and the Little Mermaid Sally is playing out a very common story of abused young women who, they, they leave their controlling homes and think a romance is the way to escape.
Speaker 2:Yeah, although, but that I mean that's part of why it's so fresh, sally, so frustrating, like Ariel didn't see a means of escape without the sea witch and the legs and Eric right, sally literally escapes without literally Consist consistently over and over again yeah, frustrating frustrating, so she's so capable?
Speaker 2:yeah, and they make that very clear how capable she is so. So that's the yeah and and and and so the idea. But that visual image of like the child, who is also a partner, who is also a carbon copy of himself, like there's just there's a lot in there that I think could bear unpacking in like a whole another episode potentially, which I don't really want to do.
Speaker 1:It makes it clear just how ugly and toxic it is for parents to have these expectations for their kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So and then the last visual image that I want to name is that in the cemetery, after he's been shot down, after Jack has been shot down and he lands on that angel tombstone statue, there's like a very extended scene where he's sitting on I don't know like angels, like holding a book or something, and he's like sort of sitting on it and so we end up with he has wings or he's like in the embrace, like there's this extended time visually where Jack is melting with or being embraced by an angel. And as I'm rewatching this, you know, just yesterday, to prepare for today, I'm like what the hell does this mean? I'm like I'm like I watch it and I backed it up a little bit and like the Santa suit is in tatters, so it's kind of like almost like feathers, and I'm like clearly this is intentional and I feel like there's something I'm supposed to be getting and I'm not sure what it is which felt appropriate for this sort of almost like resurrection, because he's been shot down and Halloweentown thinks he's dead.
Speaker 2:So, there's a resurrection of sorts, with him in the angel's arms. There's also his realization of the mistake and wanting to repair it. So I do think that there is some forgiveness. I don't know what to make of the like. There's at least a shot, more than a frame, where he's sitting such that the angel's wings are his right, like his head in front of his. Like you know, skull expressive, skull head in front of the angel's head, and we're looking at it straight on, so that the wings of the angel statue are Jack's wings, and I don't know what to make of that. Like I, it's beautiful. It's beautiful and creepy.
Speaker 2:And maybe that's all there is Sometimes a creepy angel skeleton. Melding is just a cigar, as you say, but it was notable for me in the rewatch that was like this this feels like a thing like you know how sometimes you're writing and there's like a moment that you're like I gotta get here, I need to build around to get here. It felt like one of those moments, so I wanted to like name it.
Speaker 1:So our time the thing that that that's bringing up for me is uh. So we talked about how the, the holidays, like all the two of them are, are originally christian. Yeah, although halloween is appropriated sam hayne, fromain from the, like druidic pagan. Oh, paganism, yeah, as is Christmas, as it's celebrated in Christmas town and trees.
Speaker 2:And in Easter town, like what we see of Easter town is an egg on the tree and the Easter bunny. So for sure the pagan symbols.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but the fact that they're using, like this, christian symbol and you use the word resurrection, yeah, um, that it's fascinating. Uh, now, one of the things that something that I've been thinking about Now one of the things that something that I've been thinking about is I appreciate the story as a story. I also like kind of bristle a little at like this is where holidays come from. This is like no, no, and in part because holidays change and adapt over time, we make them, we make the traditions, we change the traditions and in the 30 years since this film came out, jack Skellington has become part of the Halloween tradition and Christmas and Christmas, which did not exist 40 years ago, and I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Who me? So later this week, while we're recording this, it is just before Sukkot I'm going to be going to my son's fifth grade classroom and introducing Sukkot to them. Now I'm doing that because every single year I'm asked to come in and talk about Hanukkah, which drives me nuts, because Hanukkah is a big deal just because of its proximity to Christmas. So it's for a lot of Gentiles is like oh, that's the important one, it's the Jewish Christmas, that's the important one, it's the Jewish Christmas. And I've tried very hard to become more okay with the fact that Hanukkah, like every other holiday, is changing over time because of outside forces. In the same way, many other traditions in Judaism have changed over time because of both outside and inside forces within the community and from outside of the community. And so this story kind of presents itself as if holidays are unchanging, as if, like, there is, um, there is a way that Halloween goes, there is a way that Christmas goes.
Speaker 2:I disagree. I cause he says he has new ideas for next year. I actually think the problem is that it implies that it's somehow outside of our hands as those of us who observe, yeah, yeah. I don't disagree with you that there's a problem in the kind of cosmology of where the holidays come from, but I don't think it's that it's static Well the reason why I say static is because the way Halloween is presented to us is the way that we celebrate Halloween.
Speaker 1:Now we trick or treat, we do spooky things, but that's not how Halloween always was.
Speaker 2:Well, exactly Same thing with Christmas, but Jack's doing it now.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So maybe 300 years ago Jack did it differently. I think that the changeableness of it is not the issue.
Speaker 1:It's the externalness of it. Christmastown's trees has a tree, right yeah, and Halloweentown's tree has a jack-o'-lantern.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Those are not original to these holidays. I mean the grove, I mean come on Thanksgiving, Independence Day.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's my issue the trees are only 200 years old.
Speaker 1:I wonder if there's a grove in Europe and there's a, maybe there's one with, like the more secular Muslim holidays in the Middle East? Yeah, I mean I don't know if. Do holidays have finger heads in other traditions? Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know. All right, I'm going to actually wrap us up, because we've been running long recently. I'm going to actually wrap us up Because we've been running long recently, I'm going to try to keep this back.
Speaker 2:Okay, if I can try and recap the highlights of what we talked about, this film, nightmare Before Christmas, was groundbreaking in terms of its aesthetic. It was groundbreaking in terms of its aesthetic so much so that, though it has become iconic and like completely integrated into how Americans think about both Halloween and Christmas, we didn't quite know what to do with it when it was first released in 93, and Disney in particular didn't know what to do with it, releasing it under the Touchstone label instead of Disney, even though originally it was envisioned as a Disney film. They were scared of it. It doesn't pass Bechdel.
Speaker 2:So, as a reminder, the Bechdel test from Alison Bechdel are there at least two female characters? Do they both have names? Do they talk to one another about something other than a boy or a man? The answer is no. There are more than two female characters, and that's as far as we get on the Bechtel test. Other gender things Sally is amazing. She gives with one hand and takes with the other, which she can take off and sew back on. So with the hand that she, gives With her teeth which she can take off and sew back on.
Speaker 2:So, with the hand that she gives, with the hand that the giving hand, we have this amazing woman who claims agency, who takes care of herself, whose skill she uses to repair herself Holy cow, is that a powerful metaphor? And then she is taken right away, because she does all of those things in order to pursue a man.
Speaker 1:We don't know anything else about what she wants from her life or who she wants to be, or anything Nope.
Speaker 2:No. So yet another example of a piece of media in terms of gender representation giving with one hand and taking with the other. One potential kind of interesting parable baked in here is about toxic masculinity. If we replace scary with manly sort of the messages that we get about the emptiness of displays of extreme masculinity in the person of Oogie Boogie, who, when we remove his mask, is literally just a pile of bugs with nothing to hold them together, that felt like a really interesting parable to me.
Speaker 2:Another potential parable that this movie might be sharing with us is the dangers of cultural appropriation versus appreciation. It's appreciation when Jack is like, wow, this is so cool. It's appropriation when he says I can do time, just like doing the shrug emoji about, um, the Oogie Boogie versus Jack and the kind of like the rivalry and the fight, the literal fight between them, which is visually really fascinating and interesting, with lots of references to gambling on the Oogie Boogie side and just deft, easy movement that looks like a martial artist or a dancer or both Still shrug emoji. I also named the visual image of Jack after having been shot out of the sky sitting on this angel and sort of what does that mean? The words I used you named explicitly, were very Christian about forgiveness and resurrection and uses this Christian image of an angel, forgiveness and resurrection. And and and uses this Christian image of an angel. Um, I am sure I'm forgetting something. What'd I forget?
Speaker 1:Uh, just the way that I saw the difference between Oogie Boogie and Jack as the difference between someone acting in bad faith and someone acting in good faith, um, and how difficult it is to navigate, um, someone who acts in bad faith.
Speaker 2:Right, and in that vein too, I think that the movie makers specifically gave us two examples of tricksters one with malice behind it and one without. So Oogie Boogie the boogeyman is a malicious trickster and he is the villain. Jack is a benevolent trickster or a neutral trickster. Potentially he is the hero we did spend some time talking about too. He is, in fact the protagonist because his character changes. We see change in his character, and so, though Sally is amazing and wonderful, I don't think we could argue that she's the protagonist. If some sort of character arc that involves change is quintessential to being a protagonist, sally doesn't seem to have that. Um, the last thing I'll note is the actual like.
Speaker 2:Well, two things, two of the things that I think have made this iconic, are the actual way in which this thing was made, this stop motion animation Like there is a literal three-dimensional Jack Skellington, lots of them actually out there, and at least one of them still exists in Henry Selleck's living room, I think, like under a glass case, and that's just neat, it's just cool. And the other is Danny Elfman's score, which I think I read some like an interview with some of the folks who made it, and like they were worried. It would actually be like sort of put people off because most of the film is told through music, but I actually think is part of what made the movie so iconic and so long lasting. The music really slaps. Sorry kid that, I said that out loud.
Speaker 1:So yeah, if you know what that means, then it's no longer.
Speaker 2:I know right.
Speaker 1:It's no longer something that's cool to say Cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, so anyway, that's what I got. So thank you for letting me share my deep thoughts just in time for Halloween of the nightmare before Christmas next week Actually.
Speaker 1:uh, usually we take turns, turns, but you are uh gonna present again next week yeah, little pattern interrupt.
Speaker 2:So next week I am going to bring my deep thoughts about the birdcage with robin williams and nathan lane. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that'll be fun, awesome. Well, I'll see you then. All right, see you then. Do you like stickers? Sure we all do. Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember, pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?