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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about The Little Mermaid
Bright young women, sick of swimming, ready to podcast!
In 1989, 13-year-old Tracie and 10-year-old Emily got to witness the Disney renaissance in real time when they saw The Little Mermaid in the theater. The Guy girls were captivated by the unparalleled animation, the show-stopping musical numbers, and the unexpected sight of their stepdad tearing up at the end. But underneath the beautifully constructed film was the uncomfortable lesson that Ariel gave up her voice for a man. But as Tracie shares in this week’s episode, that’s not the only way to look at this adaptation of Hans Christian Andersen’s fairy tale/allegory for unrequited gay love. The sisters talk about how Disney gave Ariel the happy ending that Andersen couldn’t imagine in his lifetime and that many trans GenXers and Millennials saw themselves in the mermaid who dreams of being human. The film still has problems with consent, fatphobia, and underage marriage–but contextualizing the movie makes it feel better to sing along.
Don’t be a poor, unfortunate soul! Take a listen to this episode!
TW: discussions of parental abuse, nonconsent, and fatphobia.
Mentioned in this episode:
The commentator who defended Ariel by saying she gave consent by proxy
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
I don't know if it's a willow tree or what, but like the curtain partying and the flamingos and the you know the like frogs, like I love it, yeah, yeah, and also oh ouch, what others might deem stupid shit, you know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. We're sisters, tracy and Emily, collectively known as the Guy Girls out, and so do we. We're sisters, tracy and Emily, collectively known as the Guy Girls. Every week, we take turns re-watching, researching and reconsidering beloved media and sharing what we learn. Come overthink with us and if you get value from the show, please consider supporting us. You can become a patron on Patreon or send us a one-time tip through Ko-fi. Both links are in the show notes and thanks.
Speaker 1:I'm Tracy Guy-Decker, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? Today I'll be bringing my deep thoughts about the 1989 animated classic, the Little Mermaid, with my sister and with you. Let's dive in. And this is one of those foundational texts, so I don't have to ask you if you've seen it. But, like, what's in your head about the Little Mermaid? Give me the highlights. Like I don't need every single thing, because we only have an hour but give me the highlight.
Speaker 2:So a couple things um the music, um part of your world is is a song that's in there, um as in les poissons, les poissons, because anything french that's, as is les poissons, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and kiss the girl, and under the sea I mean, it's just banger after banger. So I've got that in my head. I know that I loved it as a kid. And then I read, after having seen the movie, I read the original Hans Christian Andersen story, which broke my heart and I wasn't sure how I felt about how Disney had changed it. I really have a strong memory of our stepfather took us to see this movie in the theater and him getting teary eyed at the end about, like this, you know, mermaid daughter being gone forever because she she marries a human. And now, as a parent watching it is like, well, I haven't seen it recently, but like now, as a parent thinking about that moment, I'm just like, yeah, I don't know if I would, I would be teary-eyed. So, um, just because king triton is kind of an abusive father and you know it's her, her leaving is an escape, not a triumph.
Speaker 1:Anyway, Okay, I'm not sure I would agree with that characterization. Yeah All right, yeah All right.
Speaker 2:And then, of course, ursula, who is just iconic. I'm just, she's just an amazing character, just iconic, she's just an amazing character. So, yeah, there's a lot in there. I mean, that's just off the top of my head, okay, so why are we talking about it today?
Speaker 1:I mean it is a foundational text, but it is a foundational text and, like you, I also associate it with our stepdad. A lot of our movies. Regular listeners know a lot of the movies. Like you, I also associate it with our stepdad. A lot of our movies. Regular listeners know a lot of the movies that we talk about we associate with our dad. This one definitely has strong associations with our stepfather.
Speaker 1:I loved this movie so so much, like so much the music, just all of it. And when my daughter was born she's 12 and we were starting to like, you know, when she was little, and we would use the TV to like distract her, so I could, you know, use the bathroom. Um, you know, thinking about what to put on for her, this one, I actually put the kibosh on because I didn't like at least the surface messages that this child gives up her voice for a man. So my daughter actually still has never seen it. So my daughter actually still has never seen it and I also and I had kind of like just pushed it away for a long time and I recently heard of some folks in the trans community kind of feeling affinity for Ariel and that made me kind of want to re-look it and just just look at it more deeply than just oh, she gives up her voice for a man which is not untrue, but but is not a nuanced view of what happens, and so I just I wanted to give it just a little bit more. It is such a foundational text I mean under the sea and um, the, the and the song Under the Sea and Part of your World are both like so baked in that the lyrics come up sometimes like in just in, as a coming of age and how I wish it were handled differently about it in context in the late 80s and the sort of fallow period of of disney that this was coming out of, and ariel in comparison to what had been before. Like I, I want to put her in context. I want to talk about the hans christian anderson story and the allegory that it was for him and what the changes, what the changes made, what difference those made. And I do want to talk about Ursula and sort of what messages we're getting from her, and we'll talk about the father-daughter dynamic, which is not healthy For certain, not healthy for certain. Not healthy, I'm not sure. I'm not sure I would characterize it as abusive, though there are moments of abuse, which is a nuanced distinction and maybe won't hold up, but but we'll, we'll get there. We'll get there.
Speaker 1:I also want to be clear with our listeners. I am just talking about the 1989 animated version. So this is not I did. I have. I actually have not seen the more recent live action version, which I understand did make some changes to maybe address some of the things that I'm going to bring up. I will watch that, but I have not yet. So just to be very, very clear, before we get there, let me give a synopsis of the plot Once again. I have Wikipedia up on my other screen so that maybe it can keep me from meandering.
Speaker 1:We'll see, We'll see. So the movie opens on this big production under the sea, under the Atlantic Ocean, in the kingdom of Atlantica, where we meet King Triton. He's pulled into his throne room. It's like this big musical number. He's pulled into this throne room with dolphins pulling this giant shell think like birth of Venus type giant shell and he's a merman with a big beard that sometimes covers his nipples, but not always. I was surprised by the number of like visible male nipples in this movie. To be honest.
Speaker 2:Well, like that's the thing, king Triton can get it.
Speaker 1:He's built, he is built.
Speaker 1:Anyway, he's very much a mer daddy. So so, right after meeting king triton, we we meet his composer, like musical composer and court, I don't know, courtesan Sebastian, who has a much, much longer name. Sebastian's his last name. He's a crap, and he speaks with this sort of Jamaican accent.
Speaker 1:And this is going to be the introduction of Triton's youngest daughter, ariel, her musical debut. Her sisters all like sing the song where they name their names and then but none of us compared to our sister Ariel. And then her Venus of birth, of Venus, clamshell opens. She's not there. So we caught to where she is. She is with her best friend, flounder, who is a the bulbous fish who has the voice of a child, and they are exploring a shipwreck and she picks up a fork, they run away from a shark, they go and find up to the surface and find a seagull named Scuttle to identify the human stuff that she has um gotten from the shipwreck, including a fork and a pipe, which he misidentifies as uh. I can't remember what he calls the fork, but the pipe is a snarf plat which he like blows into uh and says it's a musical instrument like a dinglehopper or something like that, yes, a musical instrument like a dinglehopper or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, that's it a dinglehopper and the fork. The dinglehopper, he says, is a hairbrush, yeah, and that humans use it to um, to style their hair. So when? So ariel remembers she was supposed to be at the music thing, she we see her in the throne room. She's apologizing, she's being reprimanded. Flounder tries to defend her with the fact that they were running from sharks and accidentally names that they went to see scuttle with the human stuff. And the triton is like super freaked out, like clearly he's dealing with some old trauma, unhealed trauma, because's like forbids her from going to the service because the humans are barbarians and they're dangerous. And it's it's like clear fear response from from King Triton and Triton and Sebastian are speaking after Ariel has left and Sebastian is tasked with overseeing Ariel to make sure that she stays safe. So, somewhat resentfully, he follows her, ends up in this grotto, this underwater cave where she has all of her human stuff, where she sings part of that world.
Speaker 1:And she's got like just all, like, like so much, this huge collection of of human things, and she sings and it's the lyrics want to stress. The lyrics are so delightful, like with the insertion of like. She struggles over the words for things that merpeople don't have, like feet and legs, and burn, like what is a fire and why does it? What's the word burn, which is just, it, just.
Speaker 2:Oh, it just works. It's a Howard Ashman, isn't it? Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, ariel Ends up. Ariel ends up at the surface one night the boat goes over the, like the top of her grotto. So she goes up to see what it is and she it's the. It's a. She goes up to see what it is and it's a royal boat where there's a birthday celebration for Prince Eric. That she kind of like climbs up on the edge of the deck like hanging off and like watches and she sees him interacting with his dog Max. Sees him, eric, prince Eric interacting with his dog Max. And she is smitten with him. Enter a hurricane. I mean okay, and the ship is tossed and because of the fireworks that were on board for the celebration, like the ship is destroyed.
Speaker 1:Eric, the sailors get into the lifeboat and Eric does too, but the dog is still on the boat. So Eric goes back to save the dog and ends up in the water. Ariel saves him and gets him up onto shore and is singing to him as he starts to return to consciousness. And then she slips off into the water before they actually interact much at all in order to avoid detection because, um, I don't know what he is like a valet, grimsby eric's valet is coming. He's an old man and is like looking for her, for for him, for eric, and and is coming, and so ariel slips away to avoid detection. So she's like mooning about and her sisters are like, wow, she's got it bad. And Triton's like got what bad, you know? And so Triton believes that Ariel has a crush on a merman based on what his other daughters have said. So he confronts Sebastian playfully, like he wants to know who is this lucky merman. And Sebastian, with the way that he does it, he says I know that she's in love. And Sebastian thinks that he actually knows about the, the adventure to the surface, and ends up telling him uh, even though he didn't know. And he, triton, freaks the fuck out and has the one moment that I think actually is truly abuse, uh, where he goes to her grotto and destroys all her stuff. Yeah and um, that destruction of a child's property is a thing that we that I think happens. It happens where parents think they're teaching a lesson and that I will say out loud that's abusive and props to the animators, because as he leaves we see that he knows that, if not, that he went too far. He knows that he has hurt her and we know it through his facial expression of a blessed drawing. Yeah, and like, wow, like, for reals, wow.
Speaker 1:So in the sort of aftermath of this traumatic moment for her, flotsam and jetsam, the two eels who are minions of Ursula the Sea Witch, come and talk to Ariel and say you know, we know someone who could help you. And initially Ariel's like no, I don't want to have anything to do with the Sea Witch, but these two eels are very clever and as they're leaving they say it was just a suggestion and sort of flick the face of there had been this statue of Prince Eric. That was really ridiculous, that Eric didn't like. But whatever it came down, flounder brought it into her. I don't know how the tiny fish brought the giant statue into her grotto, but somehow Flounder managed to get the statue into her grotto. Into her grotto, uh, triton had destroyed it, but like the face was intact. And one of the eels kind of flicks it at her where she's um sitting, you know, mourning the the loss of her stuff, and so that's what convinces her. So she goes off with the two eels, flounder and sebastian try to convince her not to go, but she's like like, no, I'm doing this, there's nothing for me here. So she goes and meets with Ursula, who is this amazing octopus person. So instead of having a fishtail, she's got like eight octopus legs and she is voluptuous and round and she's got this deep smokers voice.
Speaker 1:And there is there's rumor. I mean I don't I didn't research this closely so I don't know how accurate this is, but there's at least some people who claim that she was based on the drag performer divine, who's well known to balt and fans of John Waters and she. Certainly there are others who say you know, she's based on some sort of drag performer. Maybe it was Divine, maybe it was someone else that Howard Ashman was familiar with in New York, but or maybe it was a conglomeration of a number of drag queens.
Speaker 1:Ursula kind of has drag queen energy and she sings this song, also iconic, poor, unfortunate Souls, where she says I'm misunderstood, I help people and I want to talk about the way that she helps people, like the examples that she gives when we get there, and basically she makes these deals with people which they can't keep up their end, and then she collects them I'm putting quotes around that and they turn into these little like polyp worms, plant things, the kind of gray, and they have eyes and stuff and they clearly feel fear. And she, she, makes a deal with Ariel. You give me your voice, I give you legs and you turn into a human for three days. And if you can get the Prince that you love to kiss you with true love not just any kiss, but a kiss with true love within three days, then you keep your legs and live happily ever after. If you don't, you are mine. Meaning she goes into this garden of worm, pollen, unfortunate souls right she makes the deal.
Speaker 1:There's this awesome dramatic scene where she sings and, uh, ursula sort of extracts her voice as like this golden light that she then puts into a little shell that she wears around her neck. Ursula wears around her neck and immediately turns her human, so that she's like gasping for air. So Flounder and Sebastian like rush her up to the surface. So now she's human. They have to get her into the castle. Somehow she gets into the castle. It's adorable, like she's so, like there's a wonder that she has. It's so cute. She's.
Speaker 1:The servants like clean her up and get her a dress. And meanwhile Sebastian ends up in the kitchen where the French chef mistakes him for one of the crabs that he's cooking and like there's this absolutely ridiculous slapstick scene with the song les poissons, les poissons how I love les poissons where sebastian nearly kills this dude and they totally destroy the kitchen. Then they're having dinner and Grimsby suggests that Eric take Ariel on a tour of the kingdom. So they do that the next day and in sort of a montage we see him like really enjoying her childlike wonder and like curiosity and adventure as they go around the kingdom. Oh, meanwhile I forgot to mention when he first, first meets her, he thinks maybe she's the girl that saved him, who he's decided he's in love with and is going to marry.
Speaker 1:But no, she can't be because she can't talk and the voice is the primary, uh characteristic that he remembers about this mystery girl. Okay, so they're having a great time. And then, uh, the friends flounder sebastian and scuttle. They're like has he kissed her yet? Has he kissed her yet? No, no, no. So now they decide they need to try and help that along.
Speaker 1:So they're rowing in a boat on a little like swampy river thing and sebastian gets all of the sea creatures and waterfowl to help him sing this song, to try and like push them to kiss, kiss the girl, which is a great song, and also, like, highly problematic when I watch it now. Yeah, they're about to kiss but then get interrupted by flotsam and jetsam who tip the boat over. Ursula is watching and she's like you know, she can't let the deal be a deal. So she decides she needs to intervene. So the next morning Scuttle comes in, ariel sleeping. Scuttle comes in and says I heard the great news the prince is getting married. The whole kingdom is talking about it. Way to go, kid.
Speaker 1:And so initially Ariel's like's like, oh, this is great, this is so exciting what's happening. And she like runs to find out and and um, eric is sort of she's up on like a mezzanine and she's looking down and eric's with this other brunette woman ariel has red hair, um, who has her voice, and he's very excited, he wants to get married today. The ship leaves at sunset and she freaks out and there's this one moment that again just props the animators. There's this she, when she realizes what's happening, she like turns away from the scene with her back to this column and she kind of flaps her hand a little bit and it's just this, like this doesn't belong in the synopsis, but I can't help it. There there's this tiny moment. It's just so real, like it's just one of those like small details that really makes her read as an actual, fully formed character who's having emotions. Anyway, she's resigned, that like she's lost the deal and she's going to know become one of one of ursula's um things. And it's not even that she's just resigned. She lost her love.
Speaker 1:But scuttle is like what, still doesn't know what's happened. He goes to the boat and like flies into the, is like looking in the window and sees this woman and sees ursula in the mirror. So Vanessa looks like young, slim, beautiful woman to us, but in the mirror we see Ursula's reflection. So Scuttle knows. So he goes back to the pier where Ariel's dejected and says what's happening. So Blounder is going to try and get Ariel to the boat and Scuttle has been told to stop the wedding and Sebastian goes to get Triton.
Speaker 1:So another slapstick scene where the creatures work to try and disrupt the wedding and the, the shell holding the voice, gets sort of pulled off of Ursula's neck. Vanessa slash Ursula's neck and Ariel gets her voice back and, just as like as that happens, eric's in, like, he's kind of like hypnotized, and that breaks and he sees Ariel and he remembers her and he realizes that they're the same person and that they're in love with one another. That they're the same person and that they're in love with one another. And just as they embrace, like, the sun goes down and her legs turn into a fishtail again and Ursula says it's too late, I've won. And he, she scoops up the mermaid and and um goes down into the sea. Triton confronts her. He tries to destroy the contract but he can't because it's a valid contract. So Ursula convinces Triton to take Ariel's place. He does, he signs the contract to take her place. He turns into a little polyp. Ursula takes Triton's Triton Right.
Speaker 2:It is or Trident.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the word. Ursula takes Triton right, it is that's for trident. Yeah, that's the word. Ursula takes triton's trident and like, grows to be like ginormous, like like I don't know skyscraper big, and it's like she's wreaking havoc. Eric manages to actually hurt her with like the prow of a giant shipwreck that he steers into her gut and kill her and the and so once she's been killed, all of the polyps turned back into merpeople, including triton.
Speaker 1:And then we see um, we see ariel kind of watching the humans on the shore. She's on this like rock, just out of the water. And we see triton watching her from a distance she doesn't know he's watching and he's talking to sebastian and they're talking about how, um, she's growing up, and I don't remember the exact words, but but you know, sort of, maybe humans aren't as bad as we thought, and blah, blah, blah. Triton says there's only one problem and Sebastian's like or one problem left, something like that. And Sebastian's like what's that? And Triton says just how much I'm going to miss her.
Speaker 1:And then he lays, he sort of holds, his trident just on the surface of the water and this golden light goes over to Ariel and her tail is transformed into legs and then she looks back at him and smiles, and then she sort of walks off in this shimmering white gown out of the surf and and greets Eric. That's when they kiss. And then that like immediately cuts same scene, but wearing wedding clothes, and she says that her dad comes and greets her and they hug and she says I love you, daddy. And the merpeople are all there waving as they sail off into the sunset. So there were little pieces that I miss. I'm sure, like Flotsam and Jetsam bite it and, um, ursula is really sad and calls them her poor poopsies out and calls them her poor poopsies Iconic, as I said. Yeah, yeah, and about Ursula, we don't know specifics, but at some point she lived in the castle and she really resents Triton and we don't know what happened there.
Speaker 1:So, oh, we also hear that we know for sure Ariel's age is 16. So I actually want to start with the Hans Christian Anderson, because I think that that's significant and and and kind of inform some of the problematic things that bother me, that so I'd like to, I'd like to actually start there. So anderson's story of the little mermaid basically the same story a mermaid who falls in love with a human prince and gives up her voice to the sea witch in exchange for legs and. But he doesn't. The prince does not fall in love with her. He falls in love with another human woman and the mermaid sisters give her a way out. They say if you kill him, you can come back and live with us and remain a mermaid, but she can't bear to hurt him.
Speaker 2:I thought it was like kill him and the other woman.
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't know, I didn't reread it, so I just read a synopsis, because I.
Speaker 2:I remember it being like what I appreciated about it was that it did show like what selfless love really is, like she couldn't. She couldn't bear to kill him, but she also couldn't bear to hurt him by hurting his love, because she does love him.
Speaker 1:So instead she takes the mermaid's death. Oh, that's. The other piece of the deal was that humans have a soul which live on after their death, but mermaids don't. Merpeople become seafoam and that's the only way in which they live on. So she chooses the mermaid's death and becomes seafoam.
Speaker 1:And it's sort of an open secret that Anderson was in love with a man named Edward Edward Colin I don't know if the V's pronounced or not and that this, this fairy tale, was a love letter to Colin and they remained friends. After Colin got married to a woman, and, and, and Anderson remained friends with him and his wife, but so this was sort of his love letter to him, and, and, and. So when I think about it that way, and this love that Ariel, our Ariel, has, and, and, and the ending that we get, the Disneyfied ending that we get, anderson lived in a time where he couldn't even imagine a happy ending for himself. Yeah, and so the fact that a happy ending for this unrequited love was given him kind of posthumously, like that, that feels redemptive to me for this story that in my sort of angsty twenties I rejected. On the other hand, the story that we received was not a and, like we didn't have that context, right Like I didn't have that when I was. How old was I in 89? 13. You know, I didn't have that sort of unrequited gay love from whenever Anderson lived.
Speaker 1:1989, who the movie I mean. In some ways it really gave me a lot, right. Like Ariel is curious and autonomous and like brave, she rejects patriarchy in a lot of ways. She rejects what's expected of her. She has a, she has a gifted singer, but she's not really interested in singing in this stupid court production that her dad is putting on. You know, she bucks against this parent who, because of his trauma, is stifling her.
Speaker 2:So on the one hand, it gave me all of that that and then immediately made romantic love and marriage the focus of all of that. So the reason why, when you were asking me what I remember about it and I said look at it as this young woman who escapes an abusive parent, because it is a very common pattern, particularly for young girls, where, if they are in an abusive family of origin, are in an abusive family of origin a lot of times it can seem like the fastest and easiest escape is through a relationship, a romantic relationship, particularly if you're an attractive young woman, and that's something I think is important to note in this film. Now, triton clearly loves his children, he loves his daughters, he loves Ariel. He means well, he does. But that does not preclude abuse.
Speaker 2:Agreed, agreed, yeah, and he's also clearly traumatized, which does not preclude abuse. But the fact that and again, this is as the story as received is, you know, she doesn't actually know Eric. She doesn't actually know Eric, right? Her father has made it clear that there is nothing for her under the sea because all the things that she cares about have been destroyed and she's going to be, like you know, forced to be in these musical productions she doesn't care about and do things that she doesn't care about, and so Eric seems like an escape.
Speaker 2:I mean particularly the way it all goes down, like she's making the bad decisions a 16-year-old makes when it seems like you don't have other choices. And then the fact that Triton says you know, there's only one problem is how much I'm going to miss her, much I'm going to miss her and like gives her. This also feels abusive because it's just like, instead of being like okay, let's figure this out, let's, you're 16. I believe that you care very deeply for this boy, but you're 16. You've known him three days, let's slow our roll. And instead it's like okay, you're his problem now. And I know that is not what anyone was going for with this movie, but that is the way that patriarchy looks at romance.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, exactly Like I feel, like I guess I'm holding our filmmakers more accountable than the character of Triton, I guess, in this moment. Because why did it have to be either? Or? I mean, and again, patriarchy, white supremacy, both hinge on an either or right. But the from the beginning, like part of what I think're we're meant to see as Triton's error, is his binary that humans are bad, period full stop, and and that's and, and we're shown that that's not true, right, eric makes some selfless choices when he is fully himself, and and so the movie shows us that, that his binary is false. And yet her reward, like our reward, is another freaking binary. It's another either or. And so I I don't disagree with any of your characterizations. I just I want to like go a little more meta and say like, is this actually the character's fault or is it the writer's?
Speaker 2:fault. Yeah, yeah, well, it's also so. Before I learned that the trans community sees themselves in Ariel, I learned more about Howard Ashman, who died not long after this a few years after he died, in 91, and the movie was released in 89. Yeah, and he died of AIDS at the age of 40.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he had also done some of the lyrics for Beauty and the Beast, if I recall. Yeah, and he was an important part of the lyrics for Beauty and the Beast, if I recall. Yeah, and he was an important part of the Disney Renaissance of this time.
Speaker 1:I don't think we can underestimate how important he and Alan Menken together were to the Disney Renaissance, because bringing it back to the really big musical numbers is part of what made it feel like the old days again. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:And so understanding, as I understood it, that Howard Ashman and Alan Menken had a great deal to do with how Ursula was characterized and a lot of the lyrics that can be read in multiple ways, helped me kind of forgive the film the first time. I forgave it Because it helped me. It contextualized it in the same way that, like so when I first read the Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale in probably like 1990. So like it was after the film came out, but I was still a kid and that contextualized things for me like, oh, disney gave it a happy ending and made it so that the other woman was evil and not just, you know, a blameless person who the prince truly loved, which, okay, that's an interesting contextualization and the selflessness of Ariel. And then there was also, I don't know if you recall, because she was so selfless, instead of becoming seafoam she actually gets a soul.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she becomes seafoam, but she also has a soul.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so the Christianity of that kind of contextualized things for me and you know it was from there then, learning about Howard Ashman and his like really tragic, early death and what his experiences being gay in the middle of the 20th century put into this film. You know, I find if you look at things through a queer lens it can really contextualize the art that comes out. You know, both from Hans Christian Andersen originally to what Howard Ashman was able to do with this work, and part of what goes on is because it had to be done underground. We're receiving it in this heteronormative, patriarchal, binary thinking type of world which we had no way of questioning as a 10-year-old and a 13-year-old when we saw it the first time. Right, Right.
Speaker 1:So when I think about what makes me uncomfortable about this movie, I'm what I want to ask myself is whether or not I am chafing at the genre, like like when, when I gave uh, roger ebert a hard time for like being annoyed that the two protagonists got together in a romance. Like, am I being roger ebert in this moment by being annoyed that at the fairy tale that ends with a wedding? And I think the answer is maybe, or the answer is at least a little bit. Yeah, I'm at least a little bit like chafing at the actual genre and I feel like there are potentially are ways that we could be true to the genre without the actual wedding bells, like the pairing. I don't think that I could be true to the genre without the actual wedding bells, like the pairing I I don't think that I could avoid the pairing.
Speaker 2:Well, um, unless it was hans christian anderson look at princess bride.
Speaker 1:That is true to fairy tales yeah, and they and, and there's a, there's a pairing, but there's no wedding. There's no wedding, right, right, um. So so I think, I think it's like it's a yes, and in this one, um, in terms of, like, what I'm I'm chafing at, and and and even when I think about the context of the gay men involved in its creation, the trans folks who have taken this on and like, think of themselves as mermaids, which I think is actually really pretty cool. That's lovely.
Speaker 1:Yeah that you know cause? Cause Ariel is fascinated with humans long before she ever sees Eric, and I think that's really important and also like it's disappointing to me because she is fascinated with humans before, long before she sees Eric. She is fascinated with humans before long before she sees eric, that eric becomes the sole focus of her new life. Even for my trans siblings, who see themselves in in ariel, like I'm a little disappointed for them on their behalf, yeah, yeah, that's what I mean on their behalf that that that Ariel does isn't given more uh purpose, more meaning, more to do, or the the opportunity she has actually transitioned yeah, or the opportunity to just feel at home in herself yeah, without it having to do with someone else right, like I want Ariel to just like be like yeah, I got legs.
Speaker 1:Like this is who I am not, so that I can be a wife, yeah, and.
Speaker 1:I want that for my trans siblings as well. So I think that's there's some of the tension that I'm feeling, even within the sort of queer lens, right. So even for um anderson, really, like I mean, this was a love letter to a specific man with with whom he was in love, um, and, and so it makes sense that that, that the romance, and, like I wish for hans christian anderson that he has a soul, you know, and um, I don't know so, and and not without having know that he has a soul, without having to sacrifice himself, without having to fall on the sword of unrequited love, but that's, I don't know that. That's neither here nor there. I'm getting a little fanciful, so let me bring it back down.
Speaker 1:I want to talk about consent in this film, because the kiss, the girl scene, like I read one commentator who really defended it hard and was like, well, she gives consent through Sebastian, like by proxy, to which I say no, honey, she didn't have her voice, but that didn't mean she couldn't communicate, because she communicated with him in other ways. Uh, and the lyrics to the song say you don't know if she wants it too, but there's one way to ask her and that's to kiss her. Oh my God, no, like he asked her questions and she responded non-verbally, like that's a thing. So so that really bothers me. Uh, in rewatch, as as much as I love the song, as much as I love the visuals, you know with like the like I don't know if it's a willow tree or what, but like the curtain partying and the flamingos and the you know the like frogs, like I love it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And also oh ouch.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to bring up something that seems unrelated, but no, you, that's so out of character for you.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I, I, I really like to meander, but so I'm thinking of, if you recall, the article about Aziz Ansari in I think it was like January of 2018, it was just just after like the bulk of the Me Too movement where a young woman, who we only know as Grace, talked about a date that she went on with Ansari, where he consistently pushed her boundaries and then would back off a bit, and then pushed him again and then would back off a bit, and this was polarizing this article.
Speaker 2:There were a lot of women over a certain age who were just like that's just a bad date, or you have words, say no or slap him, and younger women were more likely to be like no, it's not okay what he did and it, um, you know, it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to use force or coercion to be non-consensual.
Speaker 2:And one of the things that I remember from that moment was a, an article where someone was saying like why is it that? We understand we know that men understand nonverbal no's and non-direct no's in every other situation, but in the bedroom. So like if you say, hey, I'm going to order a pizza, do you want some pizza, and the person responds I don't think I'm hungry. You know that that means no. Whereas if you say like hey, how about we take this in the bedroom? Like I don't know if I want to do that right now. Oh, come on, honey, I bring this up because this is all part and parcel of the same thing the lyrics. You don't know if she wants it too, and there's only one way to find out, and it's that's to kiss her.
Speaker 1:Well, there's there's one, it's not the only way. Oh okay, there's one way, but the lyric is there's one way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Aziz Ansari is about our age, maybe a little younger, so I don't know.
Speaker 2:So he was a kid watching this too, right, and so this is what he learned too, which is that you press until she says no. And in terms of that situation, I look at him differently, mostly because he wore a Time's Up pin and very much made his reputation on being an ally. Very much made his reputation on being an ally. So it has changed how I look at him Now. I don't think that he needs to be canceled or anything like that, but I'm less likely to be interested in his comedy. But I also recognize that this is how he was raised to believe sexual politics works, in part because of the Disney movie and everything else. That's part of rape culture, and so, you know, it may seem like this is like a stretch to be like, you know it's a G rated kids movie, but it's all part of this, these messages that we get in this culture, that it is on her to make a scene that she doesn't want something rather than it being on him to get consent from.
Speaker 1:Ariel is when her dad gives her legs Right, Like he just does it, like it surprises her and and this is part of what you're pointing to as rape culture she likes it and so it's like okay that he did it without her consent because she likes it, you know. And one could argue like this is what she's been dreaming of and he gave her her dreams and also he made a huge change to her body without talking to her about it first. So I think that, like the underlying messages, regardless, like surface level, Like maybe there are analogies that would change the context or change my perspective on in that particular interpretation, but surface level, what the 10 and 13-year-old got, this lack of consent, was like not just okay but celebrated, yeah.
Speaker 2:And the way that we look at especially women in terms of romance is that men know what women want and they give it to them without discussing it with them. So the entire idea that a proposal should be a surprise and this big romantic thing, instead of it being a conversation between equals about the importance of their lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of their future, yeah and so. So you see that all the time. Like there's a movie I remember seeing long time ago where the husband like bought a house for the wife, oh, and I remember just like absolutely not, no, yeah, yeah and so and that's. That's a similar sort of thing, like well, daddy knows best what's for her, so like she had to convince him, but now that he's convinced he's going to give her what she wants On his timing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So okay, I need to talk about Ursulaula and the poor, unfortunate souls song, and I need to talk about fat phobia in this movie. So the the contrast between ariel and ursula is like really significant right. So we've got this young, thin, pretty protagonist who's childlike, innocent, virginal, and then this round voluptuous, older, sexual villain who's heavily made up, who might be a drag queen mm-hmm and like the, the sort of and she's again.
Speaker 1:Isn't she like, yeah, yeah, she's got. Yes, she is voluptuous, yes, and. And so the contrast in this movie that that is is too much, with either ors of young and good and pretty and older and fat and evil. I have a problem with, and that is further underlined by the one example of how she helps unfortunate souls in her song, this one longing to be pretty, that one wants to get the girl, and do I help them? Yes, indeed. And we see the fat mermaid who wants to get the girl, and do I help them? Yes, indeed. And we see the fat mermaid who wants to be pretty is made thin and the scrawny mer man who wants to get the girl is made, you know, like a gym bro in in her little magical, like visual and so visual and so like this voluptuous, highly made up, sexualized older woman, totally buying in to the fat phobia that the movie is having us view her with, and like.
Speaker 1:I didn't see that at all, at all at all, not when I was 13, not when I was 23. I'm not even sure I would have seen it when I was 40, but watching it now I'm like holy cow, that is not okay. Like, so not okay. And I don't know that I have like any more to say about it except for like, wow, y'all, there's some serious fat phobia in there, and ageism and and, and, and what's the word? Like, like a demonizing of sexuality. That's why having her as a drag queen is a problem. It's a demonizing of the sexuality. I needed to articulate it in that way it's a demonizing of the sexuality.
Speaker 1:I I needed to articulate it in that way that, like it bothers me now that I'm watching it and it bothers me that it didn't bother me or in earlier viewings. Like that just reminds me, like how internalized all of those things are in our cultures and in myself. So, and while we're talking about that scene, with the poor, unfortunate souls through that scene and others, sort of um, it passed. This movie does pass back to Elle. There there are. So there are at least two women or female characters with names who talk to one another. Ursula and Ariel talk about Eric, but they talk about other things as well. So just as an aside, because we always talk about Bechdel, so there's my Bechdel moment. So the fat phobia that is inherent in this villain, this fat villain like the fact that when she gets the power that she's looking for, she grows enormous. It feels like another sort of symbolized fat phobia, like another way in which we communicate, we telegraph. Evil is in exaggerating the fat bodiedness of the fat villain something that just occurred to me.
Speaker 2:So we prize thinness, we prize virginity, and we vilify sexual experience and fatness, which is another way of vilifying mothers. Yeah, and pregnancy, pregnancy, yeah, and it got me thinking about the fact that, like, so I don't know if Alan Menken is gay. Um, I know Howard Ashman was. Um, I don't know either, but um, it got me thinking, like, were there any queer women involved in the making of this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I I don't know. I do think that the the primary animator on Ariel herself was a woman, I think, but mostly it was men making this movie. Mostly it was men making this movie. There is another fat bodied woman in this film and that is the woman who takes care of Ariel when she first comes into the palace. She's like a servant of some kind who is like we'll just get this washed, Like the sailcloth that she has wrapped herself in. She's not vilified at all. She's also not at all sexual, Like she's just kind of matronly. So in the feminine archetype she is the mother, but I think that that's. I just wanted to name that. Like there is another fat body.
Speaker 2:Well, and then that's interesting because, like, if you are motherly and fat bodied, then that's okay, but if you dare to be sexual and fat bodied, that's evil, because you're not being a mother yeah, yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 1:Um, it's also notable that ariel has no mother. Like we don't know, we, we don't know, we're not told. Like you know did, did she spring fully formed from triton's head, or like, was there a mother who's now absent? Like we don't know. So that's another piece. I think of this when thinking about gender that's missing like what's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker 1:like we one can feel the absence of a mother in this. I think if there had been a mother in this whole thing, like the whole thing would have gone down a lot different.
Speaker 1:Like oh, gosh, I'm sorry honey, you're 16, why don't you date him for a while anyway? Um, so, so I I think those were the the big things that I wanted to make sure that I spoke about. I think that we can, and maybe we'll, do another episode to talk about the live action one where ariel is played by a black actress and, like some of the folks uh, white folks who lost their minds when she was cast because it wasn't realistic, because, of course, mermaids all have white skin, so, like, maybe we will do an episode about the live action. I haven't seen it so I can't speak aside from, like what I saw on, you know, social media, where people were like losing their minds.
Speaker 2:Like this is so unrealistic and she has red hair.
Speaker 1:And it's like right, right, right, Anyway, um you want to talk realistic.
Speaker 2:Does Ariel have any idea what the wedding night is going to be?
Speaker 1:does Ariel have any idea what the wedding night is going to be. Well, and like when she had like. If she gets pregnant, will she have a?
Speaker 2:human kid or a merfish? Well, does she lay eggs, like what? Also, can merpeople have sex? What is she going to eat for the rest of her life? Cause those are her friends. Those are her friends. And is she going to be like watching her husband eat her friends? Those are her friends. And is she gonna be like watching her husband eat her friends for the rest of her life?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, all right, well, any, um, final points, uh, deep thoughts that you want to make. Before I try and summarize some of the things that we just talked about.
Speaker 2:Um, one thing I I'm just about hans christen and I. I really wish I could remember which author it was, but he was an admirer of an author and like set up a correspondence with him. And I think Hans Christian Andersen was neuro spicy like they didn't have any way of detecting that at the time but he was a parent like he. He invited himself to this other author's house and like just stayed there and was like the world's worst house guest, oh my gosh. And this poor other author was like how do I get rid of him? That's so funny.
Speaker 2:That was in some ways endearing, um, and also kind of helped me better understand, like how he channeled like his own anguish into this story and other things that he'd written. Um, oh, and the one other thing. So the same book where I read the the um little mermaid, there was a little bit of biographical stuff about Anderson, one of the things saying he had this really beautiful voice as a little boy, but then his voice changed and he couldn't sing anymore and I was 10 or 11 and did not have any idea what the hell he was talking about.
Speaker 2:I was like oh my god, did they go to a doctor? Oh, just had no idea talking about.
Speaker 1:I was like oh my God, did they go to a doctor.
Speaker 2:I had no idea, poor poopsie. So so yeah, so I have, I have, I have some fondness for for for Mr Hounds.
Speaker 1:Okay, let me see if I can summarize, uh, some of the things that we talked about, so I think I'll I took I take issue with some of the things that show up in this film and ultimately what I'm taking issue with is patriarchy, like I think I need to just name that because I don't believe that the movie makers were, you know, on the cutting edge or ideologically like out there, right, like they gave us, they were giving us media that, like, made our stepdad cry right, he ain't a crier, just for the record, y'all, he's not a crier, um.
Speaker 1:So like they were tapping into something that was in the culture. They weren't, um, they weren't giving me something that wasn't already there, they just packaged it in a new way. So what I'm ultimately taking issue with is patriarchy, and and and the pieces specifically that show up in this film that bother me are um, the sexual politics around consent they're the primary focus on romantic pairing as some sort of like proof of worthiness for women in particular and and the and the ways that in this film that manifests as a redirection of a really curious and alive and interesting and driven girl into a wife, and I want more for that part of your world kid who's like wants to, you know, who thinks about the girls on land, sickest women ready to stand. I want more for her than to just stand at the altar, like when she was ready to stand it wasn't at the altar. So those are some of the things that I take issue with. So, so, those are some of the things that I take that I take issue with. When I zoom out and look at this story from its origins of Hans Christian Andersen, inless love that he sacrificed himself for and thereby sort of wrote himself a soul, which just breaks my heart that he thought maybe he didn't have one. Yeah, it sort of opens up channels of fondness that had closed for me. So I think that's important. Also, recognizing that my trans siblings see themselves in Ariel as this person who's just not at home in her own body and longs for a different kind of existence and is able to find it also opens up channels of fondness for me. So those are things I things I want to name in terms of our analysis.
Speaker 1:Some of the things that we, um, that we talked about are, uh, especially around sexuality and being desirable and not being fat, because those two things go together and the ways in which sort of fatness is vilified, especially if it is sexualized, and the only way that it's okay for a woman to be fat is if she is also nurturing. That we see in this movie through the persons, through the characters of Ursula, the sexual fat evil, uh, woman, and I don't remember her name, if she has one, but the fat servant who helps take care of Ariel when she first comes into the um, into into the castle, who also interacts with the French chef, who is um, you know, she's great, she's benevolent. We're meant to like her. We talked, I mean, I also just named.
Speaker 1:Like this movie was part of the Disney Renaissance. The music is amazing. Oh God, yeah, we lost a huge talent when we lost Howard Ashman to AIDS in 1991. He was the Lin-Manuel Miranda of his day, right, like he was revolutionizing, like taking the old tropes and like making them new for a new generation. To sort of fall in love with the heroine, to like tap our feet at the showstopper, to like feel the huge emotions at the denouement, like he gave us that and and it. The music, the actual music, and the visuals still entertain like crazy.
Speaker 1:And the animators. Like the animation, they weren't cutting corners, so they took it back to sort of the high art that it had been when Walt Disney was alive with this film, in these characters, through the work of the animators, not the voice talent, whether it's Triton's remorse that we see on his face after he has done this abusive act of destroying her stuff, or in Ariel, like her face and like her body language when she realizes that Eric is going to marry Vanessa, those are two specific moments that I called out. There are many others. That Eric is going to marry Vanessa, those are two specific moments that I called out. There are many others. I think you brought it with Aziz Ansari. You brought in some contemporary examples of like, if we iterate the sexual politics around consent out to their logical conclusions, you brought in contemporary examples and what else? What am I forgetting?
Speaker 2:showing the pattern of a young abused child looking for romance as a way out of an abusive family situation. And that's like it's. It's so common that I like I'm not sure how like how the filmmakers were thinking about it, if they were at all yeah, maybe not at all because it is so common, yeah, cool.
Speaker 1:well, this is one that, like it didn't surprise me because I already was like I said I wouldn't let my daughter watch this film, so I already had sort of a sense that, like there was a lot problematic in it. So it didn't surprise me, but it still hurts. I loved this movie so, so deeply. I still love the music. So this is one of those that, like is part of the reason that we're doing this project right, like I I finding ways to be aware of what is problematic in what we love, so that we can pick what we allow in as furniture and what we sort of hold. I don't think it means that we have to cancel it entirely, but we're able then to actually like be more discriminating about what we let in as furniture of our minds. Which is why I didn't let my kid watch it, because she can't do that kind of discernment yet she's not old enough. I invited her to watch it actually with this rewatch, and she was like, man, I don't want to.
Speaker 2:I am thinking also, just so, when you realize like she gives up her voice so that she can be with a man, and I thinking again about it in terms of like the pattern of like escaping abuse. It's like giving up your voice in order to get out of a situation that is untenable. I don't know just so many of the of the movies and other art that we talk about ends up being like a very interesting and important metaphor for abuse and mental health, and so there's, there's a way of looking at it there as well. But Ariel's story can't end, if that's the case, it can't end with the wedding because, like in another five years she's going to be like this is untenable and like, move on again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I guess what I want to name too. Like this one commentator I'll link to her article who was really trying to defend the thing, was sort of saying, like she was saying that this writer was saying it's unfair of feminists to blame Ariel for that.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and. I completely agree with her on that. This is like what the choices Ariel makes are completely comprehensible. And if her father had? And for the giving up the voice for the man, mm, hmm, that doesn't make me okay with the fact that it happens. You know, like on surface level, that I would want my kid to watch it. Well, it happens. My young daughter.
Speaker 2:It happens in a way, without it ever being remarked upon, that like and ultimately she's rewarded for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, remarked upon that like, and ultimately she's rewarded for it. Yeah, yeah, and so that's the like. It's a gamble that the movie says pays off, and that's the piece that I don't want my 12 year old to be imbibing without some critical thinking around it. Yeah, okay, so next week, I understand, we're going to stay under the sea.
Speaker 2:Yes, Next week I'm bringing my deep thoughts about Jaws.
Speaker 1:I'm really excited about this. I have never seen it. I've seen pieces, but I've never seen the movie all the way through. It's fantastic. My daughter and my spouse watched it this past summer together and my kid was like it's not that scary, she's. She's much tougher than I am. So I might watch it before, but just not. Not to like bring deep thoughts, but just to like, just to have it, just have it.
Speaker 2:It's really really fantastic. It's. It's a very, very well done, like there's a reason why it's as iconic as it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a classic. Yeah, all right. Well, I'm looking forward to that until then. Till then, do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember, pop culture is still culture. No-transcript.