Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about City Slickers
I crap bigger’n you!
The 1991 film City Slickers holds a special place in the Guy sisters’ hearts because of how much their dad loved it. When Tracie and Emily took him to see this film in the theater for Father’s Day, they had no idea this gentle comedy-Western would offer a nuanced look at the meaning of masculinity, male friendships, and figuring out what matters in life. Although the film’s portrayal of women does not completely stand up to 2024 scrutiny–it falls victim to lazy tropes about ball-busting wives and attractive women as prizes–City Slickers gives the audience realistic and non-toxic blueprints for embracing a masculinity that includes nurturing, affection, protection, and gentleness.
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You know, instead of becoming more like the crusty, hardened like, this is the only thing a man can be, they find the reality of manhood within themselves, with the help of something that they have idealized their entire lives.
Speaker 2:What others might deem stupid shit. You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. We're sisters, tracy and Emily, collectively known as the Guy Girls. Every week, we take turns re-watching, researching and reconsidering beloved media and sharing what we learn. Come overthink with us and if you get value from the show, please consider supporting us. You can become a patron on Patreon or send us a one-time tip through Ko-fi. Both links are in the show notes and thanks.
Speaker 1:I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I will be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1991 film City Slickers with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you, let's dive in. So, trace, I know you've seen it, we saw it together the very first time. But tell me what you remember about City Slickers, what it brings up for you.
Speaker 2:So, as you know, I think this was the first film that we did the father's day movie theater trip with dad, which then became a tradition, um, so it holds a special place in my heart. What I remember is the three guys, only Billy Crystal Billy Crystal is the only name I could come up with in terms of the actors, but, uh, I remember them going to the dude ranch and like getting in touch with their feelings and, you know, finding their oh, finding their smile again. I remember the. I remember the cow giving birth and Billy Crystal having to help and bringing home the calf named Norman and losing his watch inside the cow. I remember that the other one of the friends was like married to a woman who I think we would describe as ball busting today, probably then as well, and he was sleeping with a girl at the grocery store where he worked, which her father owned the wife's father, not the checkout right, right, the wife's father, not the girlfriend's father.
Speaker 2:um, and I remember like it gave me the warm fuzzies at the time and like it made dad happy, which also made me happy, um, that's about it.
Speaker 1:That's what I got.
Speaker 2:That's what I got for it. Uh, so I kind of know why we're talking about it, since it has the same. It has that same moment for you too as the first, the first first, uh father's day movie outing, but I'm sure there's more to it. Tell me, uh, what's what's at stake here? Why is city slickers important and what do you think we're gonna talk about? So?
Speaker 1:as you said, this was the very first of what became a tradition and actually I don't remember any of the movies in the middle. I remember that one taking dad to see that, you and me together. And then I remember the last one I did, which was Despicable Me. That would have been about 2008,. I think 2009, somewhere around there, and there were several in the years in between, but I couldn't tell you what movies that were in the years in between. But I couldn't tell you what movies they were. Yeah, um, so that's part of it.
Speaker 1:It tickled dad so completely yeah, he really liked it because it married so many of the things that he really loved. So he loved westerns, um, he loved adventure stories, he loved comedy. I think it's fair to say he loved billy crystal, um think so too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think he also really liked chosen family kind of stories.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and he loved. Well, he was a nurturer. Dad really loved little children. I didn't realize until I was like about my kid's age so about 11 and 14 right now that it was unusual for your dad to wave at babies. And I can remember dad got into gardening right around when you went to college and a little bit, and like definitely when I went to college and I remember he said something like I like having something to take care of Billy Crystal's character Mitch with Norman the Calf really I'm sure would have appealed to him, even though I doubt that, like I mean, he may have been able to articulate it but he wouldn't have to us. And so this film I associate so strongly with Dad that I got teary-eyed watching it last night and thinking about how the movie looked to Dad, who was 41 when it came out, and it was about men, about his age, having a midlife crisis.
Speaker 2:If you're watching the video, you'll see I'm'm getting a little red face because this does make me and listeners are. Our dad has been gone since 2013. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, but I want to examine what this film really means, what story it's telling, and I think that it actually has a lot of lessons that are still really useful in 2024. Although I think there are a lot of things that it would not do if it were made in 2024. And there were a couple. There were several things that made me feel a little left out as a woman watching it, but the way it explores masculinity and what manliness means, I think is really nuanced for something from the early nineties. I think is really nuanced for something from the early nineties and I think that speaks to why dad liked it. Like dad was a movie buff but he he did not go see like Rambo, like you might've seen the first one, when it was actually a nuanced view of what it means to be a, you know, a Vietnam veteran, but once it just became mowing people down, wasn't interested. So in a lot of ways, our dad rejected the toxic masculinity that required men to be a certain way, and that's one of the things that I miss about him and miss because I have two sons having him show an example of what it is like to be masculine and nurturing. So that's something I want to talk about.
Speaker 1:But I think it's also important to talk about privilege and a lot of privilege that we see in this film. That kind of goes unexamined. I do want to talk about heterosexual relationships between men and women and what they mean and how they are treated in this film that in a lot of ways has such a positive view of many different ways of being masculine, but there is still an underlying women as prizes kind of sense to it. So it's remarkably funny. I mean I knew it was funny and like some of the things that were funny when I was a kid weren't funny anymore, but there were. But I laughed out loud multiple times last night like with surprise because there were lines I'd forgotten, even though I've seen this movie many times.
Speaker 2:Cool, All right. Well, remind me what is the plot of City Slickers.
Speaker 1:So, uh, we meet um three lifelong best friends Mitch, played by Billy Crystal, ed, played by Bruno Kirby he's the one with the mustache and Phil, played by Daniel Stern. Now, stern did the voiceover for the Wonder Years Right, so that is who he will always be. He's Kevin Arnold. All grown up to me. They're lifelong best friends. They're all approaching 40. And Ed is like Mr Machismo and is always like chasing these, like life affirming, youthful type of experiences, like they are running with the bulls in Pamplona. When we first meet them, he's the mustachioed one. Yes, yeah, he's the one with the bulls in.
Speaker 2:Pamplona. When we first meet them, he's the mustachioed one.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah he's the one with the mustache. Mitch is happily married to Barbara. Phil is very unhappily married to Arlene to the point where he pretends to be asleep so he doesn't have to talk to her and Ed, even though he's in his late 30s, keeps dating younger and younger women, where at one point Mitch makes the joke like soon he's going to be bringing home sperm. To date, his mother calls and goes through this litany at 5.15 am because that's exactly what time he was born, and he like, recites it along with her. I found out that that is actually autobiographical for Billy Crystal. His mother would do that exact thing and he was born at 5 in the morning.
Speaker 2:And so it's basically word for word the story she would tell him every year on his birthday.
Speaker 1:That is hilarious, so cute. He, uh, he and his wife are chatting after the phone call and his wife is, is, um, is basically saying, like I'm just going to cancel your birthday party because, like you, always get depressed around your birthday Like. And he's like, no, I want to see my friends. And she's like, okay, but can you just not be so negative? He goes to work and gets gently yelled at by his boss Um, he is a? Uh, he sells advertising for a radio station. He also goes to his son's uh, I think fourth grade classroom for career day.
Speaker 1:Um, his son is played by Jake Gyllenhaal in his film debut. Oh, weird, I know. So he goes, goes to that. When his son introduces him, he says my dad's a submarine commander and he's like, oh, danny. And he's like, okay, he works for WBSM or whatever it is. And so he ends up having a bit of a nervous breakdown in front of the children where he's like it all goes by so fast, your twenties go so by, it goes, go by. And then all of a sudden it's your thirties, you're raising kids and you're like where did my twenties go? And like, he goes through this whole thing through through to your 80s, um and uh. The teacher is just meanwhile like no, they go home, um, to the birthday party and he's like ruminating on death and uh, his, uh, his wife is is saying like he says. He says he feels trapped, which his wife takes pretty hard Personally, yeah, uh-huh, can't blame her, yeah.
Speaker 1:So the party starts and Phil and Ed give Mitch his present, which is they had saved up for another one of their adventure trips where it's going to be cattle wrestling. They're going to be cowboys for two weeks. They learn how to do everything and they herd the cattle from a ranch in New Mexico to a ranch in Colorado. Mitch says I'm sorry, I can't go. We're going to visit Barbara's parents in Florida. I can't do it In the middle of the party. That's when Phil's affair partner shows up, played by Yeardley Smith, who does Bart Simpson's voice. Bart Simpson.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's Bart.
Speaker 1:Simpson saying I'm late, and there's a point where Arlene the wife, says, like you've been having an affair with this teenager or this child or something like that A teenager. I think she's like I'm not a teenager, I'm 20. And for some reason that is really funny, yeah.
Speaker 2:There's another like you had sex with her in my father's store and she's like no, in his car. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right yeah.
Speaker 2:Something like that, yeah.
Speaker 1:So screaming fight the moment that I like me and he laughs so hard because uh, arlene and phil are yelling at each other. I hate you in front of like all of everyone's friends and uh arlene like runs into the the bedroom of um mitch's uh apartment to call her father and he's like, yeah well, I hate you more. If If hate were people, I'd be China.
Speaker 2:Why is that funny? I don't know.
Speaker 1:That's really funny, that's just so funny. They're cleaning up after the party and Barbara tells Mitch, I don't want you to come with us to Florida, I need you to go on this trip with your friends. Phil needs you to go on this trip and, like you know, you told me you feel trapped. That I make you feel trapped. He's like no, I didn't mean you, and she's like you need to go and you need to come back with your head on straight. Basically, I need you to find your smile is what she said. So they go to the ranch. We meet a cast of various people. There's Ira and Barry, who are Ben and Jerry, like the ice cream folks. We've got those two. We've got a father and son dentists from baltimore, uh, named ben and steve. They're black they're black.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I remember them and I always, I always really liked ben. He's the son, right, uh, ben's the father, the son. Son is steve. Yeah, like why do I know that guy? He played the police officer in clue and that actor has this gorgeous voice and like I think that's what it was. And then A woman right, yeah, a blonde, a woman named Bonnie, shows up. She says I feel so out of place. My friend was supposed to come with me and I didn't find out until I was at the airport that she's not coming and I feel like I don't belong here and all of the men, because she's a tragic woman are like no, no, you belong.
Speaker 1:So there are two cattle hands, ranch hands, I don't know, cowboys going, tr and Jeff, and they are, um, very typical toxic masculinity sort of thing. Um, the first time we really meet them, they're practicing roping and, uh, bonnie is off practicing by herself. And they come over and they offer to help her and she says no, thanks, I'm good. And they're like no, no, no, you really want us to help you. And Mitch and his friends are talking and Mitch says like we need to do something about this. And Ed, who's the one with the mustache, says like I'll take care of it. He's like no, no, no, no, you're going to cause a fight, I will take care of it.
Speaker 1:And so Mitch comes over and does really good, like bystander intervention, like he comes over, he makes jokes, he um, he says to Bonnie like we'd love for you to come practice with us over there. I need all the help I can get. You look like you're doing well and all of that. And like under normal circumstances, that would have diffused the situation. Um, for many, many people. But these two guys are awful, many people. But these two guys are awful.
Speaker 1:And so they continue to escalate and like kind of grab at bonnie and along comes jack palance's curly, who, uh the way, uh, billy crystal describes him as like he's so leathery, he's like a saddlebag with eyes, and he is kind of representative of like old school John Wayne masculinity, sort of chivalrous, chivalrous, yeah. So he comes in and he ropes I couldn't remember which one's Jeff, which one's TR, but the one that was being more egregious he ropes him around the neck and pulls him backwards against the fence, and then Mitch says like no, no, no, we were taking care of it. And Curly ends up kind of like embarrassing him. The cowboy refuses. He says to the cowboy, curly says like you owe this woman an apology, and he's like I'm not going to give him one. And so he throws a knife in between the guy's legs, and so he's like I'm not going to give him one, and so he throws a knife in between the guy's legs, and so he's like I'm sorry, ma'am, it will never happen again.
Speaker 1:And that's our introduction to Curly. Bonnie actually says to Mitch, that was very brave of you, I really appreciate it. And he goes I'm married and runs so that evening like they're talking, it's the night before they leave and Curly is the head of the cattle drive, so like he's gonna be in charge, the cattle boss, the drive boss, I don't know what he's called and Mitch is expressing some concern because he's like that guy is like so insane, Like it was so much. And I'm like and he's right behind me, because no comedy is complete without that joke the next morning they get going, they are like figuring it out, they're learning stuff. They're still very much city slickers, as Curly calls them. Oh, and Curly has the best line of all when, like Mitch realizes he's behind him and says like, look, I think we got off on the wrong foot. And you know, I was just trying to make some jokes, but you know, I really like this to be a good experience. And Curly says to him I crap bigger than you.
Speaker 2:That also, I imagine, really tickled dad yeah, I seem to remember him liking that so off they go, they're they're greenhorns.
Speaker 1:They don't really know what they're doing. There comes a point where phil and ed get into a fight because Ed is now married to the 24-year-old he'd been dating, Right, oh, and he's like I'm worried because I don't want to cheat on her. And Phil says to him so don't. And Ed says like that's awfully smug coming from you, considering you cheated on Arlene.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:So big fight. Mitch tries to mitigate things and it only stops when Curly throws water on them. Gate things, and it only stops when um curly throws water on them. The next morning mitch kind of broke his peace between the two friends, um, and he says, look, I've got something, so that uh like to celebrate. You know, just because we're out in the wilderness doesn't mean we have to live like it. I brought in a battery operated coffee grinder so we can have fresh, like french roast coffee which spooks the cattle.
Speaker 2:and there's a right right.
Speaker 1:I seem to remember that yeah, and so they managed to gather everyone up, but there's some portion of the the herd that went off into like an arroyo or something. So um curly says, well, I'm to go get them. And Mitch is coming with me and like he says things that are like kind of slightly ominous. He's like, so he tells the two cowboys like I'll catch up with you later, and he's like you mean we'll catch up with you later. So they end up finding the cattle. It gets to be so late that they need to make camp for the night. Um curly is again being kind of threatening towards, uh, towards mitch, and he says to him like look, if you're gonna kill me, get on with it. If you're not, shut the hell up. Um, which kind of endears him to Curly, um, even though Mitch is still clearly terrified of him. So they end up kind of bonding a little bit.
Speaker 1:Mitch is playing the tumbling tumbleweed song and Curly sings along to it, and then the next morning they're walking or they're riding and talking a little bit about life and about love and things like that. Curly tells him that the secret to life is this, and he holds up a finger and Mitch goes your finger. He's like no one thing he's like. Okay, that's great. What's the one thing he's like? That's for you to decide. It's different for everyone. And so immediately after that, they come across the cow giving birth, norman is breech and Curly has to hold the cow down because Mitch doesn't know what he's doing. And so if he, if he like, is restraining her wrong, it could like she could kill him, could kill the calf. I mean like, because if she's kicking and stuff like that. Another moment that has stuck with me forever is like you stick your hands in and so he has both hands in this cow and he pulls one out and he, he like, points. He's like this was not in the brochure and this is like effluvia coming off his finger.
Speaker 2:I remember that.
Speaker 1:And that was actually when I had my, my first child. I remember that we came in at like midnight and they took me into a closet with like a blood pressure cuff and like I mean it was a closet, and I said like this was not on the hospital tour. I was like, thank you, billy Crystal, that's where I got that from. Anyway, the calf is born and Mitch is just overwhelmed and delighted. But the cow is suffering and dying and so Curly shoots her to put her out of her misery. They catch up with the rest of the crew and Mitch is saying like Curly's really great, like you should. You know, you should get to know him. He goes over to talk to him and realizes that Curly has died. He had a heart attack and just kind of peacefully died while sitting just outside of the camp. So they bury him because they can't carry his body on horseback and they are now having to rely on the two cowboys who are so awful to Bonnie the next day.
Speaker 1:One character I haven't mentioned is Cookie the cook, who apparently has a bit of an alcohol problem and he's got a caravan. He's not just on horseback, because around in circles until the point where the horses are bolting towards a, um a ravine, and cookie jumps off at the last minute. But the horses go over and they have to bury the horses, which, like, really bothered me, those poor horses. So the two cowboys. So cookie broke both his legs and so the two cowboys are like we have to get him to um, a place where he can get doctor's care. We need someone to volunteer to, to carry him um to a. I'll draw you a map. It's within like a half a day's ride. It's not that far, but we can't leave the herd. And so Ben volunteers, himself and his son, steve, because we have some medical training. He's like, dad, we're dentists. He's like, yes, but we're going to be in a better position to help him if he needs it than anyone else, position to help him if he needs it than anyone else. And, uh, like there's this lovely like father son moments where he's like dad, like, aren't you having fun? He's like this will be fun because we'll do it together.
Speaker 1:So, and someone's cutting onions in here again, anyway, anyway, unfortunately, without the restraining influence of Curly or anyone else, the two cowboys find Cookie's alcohol stash. They get drunk and they are being really terrifying. They're throwing bottles in the air and shooting them. And then they grab Norman the calf and like put a gun to this poor, poor little baby calf to get Mitch to come out. So he does. He again tries to diffuse the situation with humor and like he's very good at it. It's just that these are not people who are willing to abide by typical social standards willing to abide by typical social standards. So there ends up being a fistfight and scuffle and there's guns involved and Phil, the one who's married to the woman who he hates, manages to get one of the guns and point it in the face of one of the cowboys and so, like everything is calmed down a little bit, they're like go sleep it off to the cowboys. And so, like everything is calmed down a little bit, they're like go sleep it off to the cowboys and like, uh, mitch and Ed went to go check on Phil, make sure he's okay.
Speaker 1:Um, we then find out that the cowboys desert them. Um, cause he's like well, cause they knew we were going to get them in trouble. And it's like well, we were. At this point it's the three friends, bonnie, ira and Barry are left. And so they're like well, do we know where we're going? Like well, I think we're going this way. Well, like, how are we going to get the herd there? And Ira and Barry are saying, like we have to the herd, yeah, we have to abandon them, like this is survival. And so Ed says I'm gonna, I'm going to um, herd the cattle. And uh, mitch is like that's insane, you can't do that, you don't know what you're doing. And um, phil says I'm gonna go, I'm gonna do it too. And it looks like mitch is not going to. He's gonna go with ira, berry and bonnie.
Speaker 1:But the next day, as um, as phil and ed are struggling with the herd, mitch comes back, um, and now wearing curly's hat, so like he had been wearing his baseball cap the entire time, but now he's like you know what I'm doing this? They have a number of like close calls where they are struggling. It starts raining really hard. They need to cross a river. They successfully cross the river with the herd, but as they're leaving, mitch hears Norman crying because he's not tall enough to be able to walk across the river. So Mitch has always been really bad at roping and in the heat of the moment he's able to rope Norman, but because of the weather he is pulled off his horse and into the river with Norman, and so Phil and Ed are able to rescue him and it's it's a very I mean, like watching it.
Speaker 1:Now. I was kind of impressed with how much of an action scene it was for comedians. Now, granted, I'm sure it was stunt doubles, you know you can't, it's nothing's close enough you can see anything, but still it was sure it was stunt doubles. You know you can't, nothing's close enough that you can see anything, but still it was an intense scene. They return back to the.
Speaker 1:They finally get to the ranch where they meet all of the other vacationers. So Ben and Steve are there, cookie is there, bonnie, ira and Barry are there and like they come home triumphant are there and like they come home triumphant. They then learn that the business model of this ranch is they just herd the cattle back and forth. You know they sell like spots for people to learn how to do this and the owner says, like I'm going to refund all your money. And Steve says well, actually, instead of a refund, could my dad and I just come back for the next one when we herd him back to New Mexico, because I really want to spend time with my dad doing this. This was fun, and that's when we learned that the cattle are all off to be slaughtered because he got an offer from a meat company that he couldn't refuse, which leaves mitch going like they trusted us and I was like I wonder how this would hit my vegan sister, especially since you spend so much time seeing how cute these animals are.
Speaker 2:So that's why I'm vegan, I know well. That's why I don't eat beef, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:The three friends ended up talking. They, um, ed, had said that his, his wife, kim, wants to have a baby. And uh, he's like, but then that's the end of it, that's the end of of my being able to do whatever I want with my life. And so, like he's, he's uncomfortable with the idea of it. Phil has has felt like um, like his life is over, and um, mitch has tried to tell him like, no, you're getting a do over, you can do over your life. He, you know it's, and Phil's like, but it's too late, I'm almost 40. Um, and of course, mitch has been feeling like he doesn't have a purpose. And um, in that last night they're talking and mitch says I, uh, I was only thinking of one thing when I was in the river and you learned that it was his family, phil. It says like you know what, I'm gonna embrace the second chance, um, to have a new life. And then, and ed says like I'm gonna stop being scared, I'm gonna, I'm to go home and get Kim pregnant. We see them, um, arrive back home in the airport. Uh, everyone's picked up. Phil gets into a cab with Bonnie, like that's how he's starting over is with an attractive woman. Kim picks up Ed and, um, mitch introduces uh, his kids to Norman, brought home with him, and they drive off. So that's the not-so-brief summary.
Speaker 1:So where do you want to start? Let me start with it, because I want to end with the stuff that I like. So let me start with the stuff that makes me uncomfortable. Okay, start with it, because I want to end with the stuff that I like. So let me start with stuff that makes me uncomfortable. Okay, um, the way all of three of these men treat women makes me uncomfortable. Now, mitch is the best of the three in that, like, he clearly truly loves his wife. She is, she is the one for him.
Speaker 1:And there there's a point where Ed is talking to Mitch saying he'd never stray, and he's like no, he's like what if you couldn't get caught? And I'm like see, that's the thing, you'd always get caught. And so Ed comes up with this ridiculous possibility what if a alien comes down, the most beautiful woman on a ship that you've ever seen, and as soon as you're done having sex with her, she goes away, she flies away, never to be back. And Billy Crystal's like no, I still wouldn't. And he's like why not? And Billy Crystal's like well, because my wife would still know She'd learn it at the beauty parlor because they know everything there, which is a pretty funny joke. But he's like I would know. So no, it's not okay. So I appreciated that.
Speaker 1:And when Mitch is having his crisis, it's not really about his family, although Barbara takes it that way, it's about his work and he says you get to the point, this is the best it's ever going to be and it's not that great. And I can comprehend that kind of malaise, kind of malaise. But it's also like a little hard to hear from someone who has the kind of money that he has. Like he makes it at one point, like Curly is being ominous, he's saying like have I shown you pictures of my wife and two children? I'm their sole support. So like that's the only thing that we know, that Barbara stays at home.
Speaker 1:But like and I know 1991 was a different world financially, but they live in New York city and they have the money to go to Pamplona and to, to, to and it's it's just like what do you want, dude? Like you, you have these beautiful children, you have this beautiful wife who absolutely adores you. You have two lifelong friends who you see regularly Like there's. There's a part of me that's just like oh, come off it, dude. Which makes me feel very sympathetic to Barbara when she's like you're not coming with us to Florida, and makes me kind of wish she'd been a little more forceful about it, although he takes it as she doesn't want me around.
Speaker 2:So that's Mitch Ed, but Mitch also, like he, was the one who intervened when Bonnie was being menaced, yes, so you know, I mean, I think that's worth naming as well in terms of like if we're talking about how these men treat women, like seeing other men behaving badly and intervening. I think needs to go on the like. Thank you, good job list yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that what the movie is trying to say is that there is a like this, sense of like. This isn't the life I thought I was going to be living, that we all experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely can sympathize with that yeah, and there is.
Speaker 1:I mean like, and we're not going to make a movie about people who can't afford to go on the cattle, so so that that's. But yes, like there's. There's definitely some really great stuff with Mitch. I just kind of want to start with him because he has the best of three. But even him, like, when he says like, like, no, he wouldn't cheat on bonnie. It's when they are uh, not bonnie, excuse me, barbara. It's when they're um, admiring bonnie and like the camera is showing her riding the horse, like focused on her ass, um. And that's when Ed is just like are you telling me you don't want to? And uses really gross stereotypes. He's like, and Mitch is like I don't know if I prefer that to the last thing you said, which was bang the shit out of her.
Speaker 1:So Ed's problematic. His 24-year-old is um a lingerie model and he, he is the instigator of all of these ridiculous like youth affirming, like youth affirming um vacations that they take, um, he's the one who who's like let's go to Pamplona, let's do this, um, and so he's like really obsessed with the idea of youth, um, and he also there was a point where, um, the three friends are talking about baseball. And Bonnie's like oh, baseball. And she explains that she used to live with a guy who, like, talked about baseball all the time and she's like I like baseball, it's just the statistics, it's just not something I care about.
Speaker 1:Like I can't say who you know played third base for Pittsburgh in 1960 and all three of the men like say the name, the player, and so they ask well, they ask okay, well, what do you and your friends talk about? She's like I don't know, like real things, real life, like relationships, like who she's seeing and how it's going, things like that. And uh, ed says to her honey, we win. And like mitch is immediately like all right, ed needs to go hibernate again. So like diffusing. But that was gross, it was really gross.
Speaker 2:And Mitch called him on it. He did yeah.
Speaker 1:And, like Ed does end the film kind of like growing up a bit, we do learn. There's a point where the three of them are talking about like what's the best day of your life and what's the worst day of your life, and you can't say that, right, I remember that and um, it's actually.
Speaker 1:It's very poignant because ed says the best day of his life was he was 14 years old.
Speaker 1:His mother caught his father cheating again, not just cheating, but in like, like, brought her to their house, in in their car, in the family car, and, uh, ed realized that he wasn't just cheating on his mother, he was cheating on the whole family. And so he he got in the old man's face and said like we don't want you anymore, I will take care of my mother and sister. And like you need to get out of here. And his father made as if to hit him. And like he didn't flinch. And so his father left and never came back and he took care of his sister and mother from that point onward. And so he was saying that was the best day of his life. And like the friends are like what the hell's the worst? He's like same day. So like it makes it understandable why someone who at 14 had to take on adult responsibilities is like consistently chasing youth also the, the, the toxic masculinity that he needed to use to fight the toxic masculinity of his father.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah so like there's, there's some nuance there, it's. It's the fact that the film ends up treating bonnie like a prize, like if there had been. Like it doesn't pass the bechdel test. I don't think actually. No, it does, because bar does, because Barbara and Kim Ed's wife talk about her modeling, so just barely Like it's the fact that Bonnie doesn't get to have much to do. She's not much of a person, she's just an attractive single woman who like here?
Speaker 1:attractive single woman who like here, we'll hand you over to phil, right, and that brings me to phil. Okay, so he says the best day of his life was his wedding day, yeah, and the worst day was every day since. Yes, and the film really wants us to believe that arlene is awful right and that phil is just this beleaguered sweet guy.
Speaker 2:Right, so that we can forgive him for sleeping with the checkout girl.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I wish I knew. Like it's a comedy, it's, you know, 90 minutes long. How are you going to show an unhappy marriage without resorting to tropes? You know, how are you going to show someone having that kind of like middle midlife loss, like the loss of a marriage, without resorting to those tropes? But there is a point where he says, cause he has kids, we don't meet them. He has kids. He says I'm never going to see my wife and kids again, and so it's not just the loss of a marriage. This is like.
Speaker 1:And when he's like you know what I do, get a do over, I'm like, yeah, but what about your kids? You know, like I think it's great that you don't feel like, okay, I just need to sit, sit and wait for death because, like, things didn't go the way I wanted to. That's fantastic. But like you get to start over with this beautiful blonde woman and your kids are, are might not see, you have to stay with their mother, who's very angry, which you know, like she has every right to be. And because, uh, he worked in his, he was the manager of his father's grocery store, he lost his job too.
Speaker 1:So like that I think, is reasonable and acceptable. It's just that the glossing over of his children is upsetting. And then the fact that he ends up with Bonnienie when, like they, I mean, there's no chemistry, there's no spark, we didn't see anything, it's just like here here's a free girl, you get her, it's yes, that's just, it's lazy, it's lazy, it's lazy writing honestly yeah, yeah, and it's lazy writing and it's also like over reliance on that need to partner people to pair up right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because, because honestly start over without, and that actually probably would have been better for him, right? If we just saw him get into a cab on his own and be like, yeah, I can do this yeah, yeah, it also.
Speaker 1:there was a line that I'd completely forgotten. When Mitch goes off with Curly, ed and Phil are watching and like worried for Mitch, and Phil says, oh God, if anything happens to Mitch, I'm going to take Barbara.
Speaker 2:Ew.
Speaker 1:Yucky and like the timing of it is like, oh God god, if anything happens to mitch, you expect it to be. Like he's my best friend we've been lifelong friends and like the timing is the is where the comedy is coming from. Um, and like we definitely have the improbably attractive wife thing going on with uh, with uh, barbara and um and billy crystal but I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't care that because that they could have made the same joke with his like baseball card collection, I know it didn't have.
Speaker 1:She's not a. Why is Arlene so angry at Phil? Maybe there's a reason why that marriage is so toxic. And, like you know, we lay it at the feet of this woman because she is shown to be overmade up and shown to like be a ball buster. Like you know, she tells um Phil, like all right, we're leaving the party right now. Um, and he's like we haven't, they haven't even cut the cake yet. You know we haven't given Mitch his present. And she's like well, you have to open the store at four 30 in the morning. Um, and he's like just, you know, can we please stay a little longer? She's like 15 minutes, not a second more, and like and four thirties early. You know it's anyway, there can be some sympathy.
Speaker 2:Arlene, yeah, I mean, I feel like the four thirties early is kind of irrelevant. I think what's more relevant is that we don't like they've been married for a while. We don't know how many times. We don't know married for a while, we don't know how many times, we don't know what history is there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we don't know how many times he's overslept and not been there on time, and then she gets yelled at by her dad or whatever, like we don't know what else is going on. Yeah, that would make her behave in that way, yeah, so.
Speaker 1:So that's so. So that's now to compare the three men with Curly, because when Mitch and Curly are are are riding together, mitch asks him have you ever been in love? And Curly says one time. And he tells a story of coming up on a farm. There was a young woman, was like gardening or working in the dirt, and the sun was going down. And just as he came up over the hill she stood up to stretch her back and so the sun shone in a way that, just like he said, showed the figure. God gave her something like that. And like Mitch says, so what'd you do? He, he's like I turned around and and the other way, and Mitch is like why she, she could have been the love of your life. And Curly goes, she is without knowing her name, without knowing anything about her.
Speaker 1:And I remember that story being really oddly affecting when I saw it as a 12 year old because, like for Curly, that was enough. Like he said um, and Mitch asked him why, why didn't you like go talk to her? And he said I figured it could never get better than that. And so I get to hold this beautiful moment in my heart for the rest of my life and I'm still not sure how I feel about that story, what that's saying Now, if you combine it with Curly's advice that you know the secret to life is one thing, and whatever your one thing is, you just make that the most important.
Speaker 1:And so for him it wasn't love, it wasn't a relationship, you know it was being a cowboy, I guess, way I guess. And so like there's something in there about like not expecting love to fix all of your problems. You know like you can experience it, you can enjoy it, you can, you can like hold it in your heart, but it's a, you know it's. It's not the end, all be all, I don't know. Like it also seems like you avoid any actual commitment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sounds like a straight up fear of intimacy to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean like unequivocal fear of intimacy is what it sounds like to me, because she could just as easily have been a painting. Yeah, you know. I mean, there was there's no actual relationship there. Mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
Speaker 1:Now, what is admirable about Curly is that he has no regrets, like he enjoys talking, telling that story. He enjoys, like you know. But when Mitch asks him, have you ever been in love? Like it hadn't been on his mind until he said it, so like that to me, like I don't know, I honestly don't know how to feel about that story.
Speaker 2:Well, he's never been in love. Yeah, well, because love is a verb.
Speaker 1:That is, it's an action.
Speaker 2:That's not. Yeah, that's not in love. I'm sorry that's being moved by another human being's physical beauty. That's not the same as being in love, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, honestly, I'm like headcanon, is that Curly's asexual? Yeah, I agreed, agreed. So in which case, like okay, I can. Kind of that contextualizes the story in a way that makes more sense to me. Asexual and aromantic, yeah, as well, but as a like hopeless romantic, even as a 12 year old. There was something in that story that spoke to me because it was like I don't need that to have a life that I feel good about.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the romance of it is that there's this one person, there is a one and you don't even need. You just need to know they exist in order to be whole somehow. Yeah, you don't actually need anything, that's just just the fact that they exist somehow completes you. Yeah, I think that's sort of the romance, but that feels toxic to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those are the things that I feel like haven't aged well. But this movie is really pretty nuanced, even with like, because we talk about gender a lot. We also talk about race. The only two characters who are not white, as far as I can tell, are the two dentists from Baltimore, ben and Steve, and so they're introducing themselves and I think it's Mitch says, like oh, you're both dentists because they have a practice together. And Steve says who's the younger one? He's like yes, we're both dentists and black, you're making a deal of it. And his father says no, son, you're the, you're making a deal of it. And his father says, no, son, you're the one making a big deal of it. I don't know, I don't know how it like.
Speaker 1:It's another moment where, like I don't think they'd put that in a movie they made today, um, and other than that, there's no other um discussion of their race, um, and they like, are very clearly like, they have a lovely little story, like they're, they're the, the fact that they volunteer to take cookie to to get medical attention and the the like father son dynamic is lovely, um, so like, I feel like, even with that, even though it's a very white cast, um, it's not a bad.
Speaker 2:Not bad for 91 yeah, I mean, I think about the way that, like when they rebooted ghostbusters and that was just what, like 10 years ago, and like they made leslie jones, they still made her. Like we got all these women who are phds and they still made the black one, the like street smart one, like, so you know, making them professional healthcare professionals.
Speaker 1:Otherwise they wouldn't have been able to afford the yeah they could.
Speaker 2:Right, they could have been like Cookie, could have been black.
Speaker 1:You know what?
Speaker 2:Like which, which I think under a different writer, cookie, that that is the way that would have diversified the cast.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I want to talk about the good stuff, like the nuanced masculinity that I think is part of what dad loved about this movie. That I think is part of what dad loved about this movie, because so Billy Crystal was 43 when the movie was made, maybe 42, somewhere around there, so right around the age. His character was just a little bit older. He is five foot six and not a very prepossessing person, so, like you know, he's kind of a skinny jewish guy with curly hair. You know the ways that he worked to diffuse situations didn't always work so he usually went used humor, which is a very valid way of diffusing situations and is an excellent like template for how to work for the cowboys, or with Curly, or later on, when the cowboys are threatening Norman. It doesn't work because these men only respect whoever has the biggest stick.
Speaker 2:Did you say stick or dick?
Speaker 1:I said stick specifically, the cowboys don't stand down until curly threatens them or, later on, until phil holds. Right Now, some of it is like just the fact that he is a city slicker, like his methods of dealing with things works in New York City. Like the rules in New York City are that if you go over, make a few jokes at your own expense, you know, say, hey, you want to come on over to our table to the woman who's being menaced. That would work, but it doesn't work in the Old West and I'm not sure what that means. With Phil, part of what his journey is supposed to be is like he's like emotionally constipated and so when he is he pulled the gun on on the Cowboys. He's like sitting on him with the gun to his head saying like you're a bully and I hate bullies. And it's like this emotional release because he has finally let go of his sense that he is powerless. And again, because of the way that the marriage is set up and the tropes that it relies on, it's really it's hard to feel like that being the catharsis that it's intended to be. But, on the other hand, like I really appreciate when Ed and Phil are arguing, when Ed's like I don't want to cheat on Kim and Phil says so, don't. It really is that, simple, right, and Phil's not speaking from the same place, right, he was in a very unhappy marriage, but I also can see where Ed's coming from, where I was. Like that's really easy for you to say, considering you couldn't.
Speaker 1:So, um, the, the positive masculinity that I see. So the, the three friends. They decide to to continue herding the cattle because they said they would, and the cattle will die if, if they're left alone out there, there's not enough, um, grazing land or water. That's about, like, keeping the promise you made. And so there's something very lovely in that, in that, like we said we were going to do this and we're going to do this and it's going to challenge us and we're not sure how to do it, but we'll figure it out because we said we were going to do it.
Speaker 1:There's the like doing things that you're afraid of recognizing, that it's scary, but just doing it, which is not just a masculinity thing but is like a lovely message from the film. And then the fact that Mitch realizes like the thing, the one thing for him is his family, it's his wife and his two kids and, by the way, the actress playing his daughter is Billy Crystal's actual daughter. That's pretty sweet. Yeah, it's Lindsay Crystal is her name. Like I saw that her name was Lindsay Crystal. I was like that can't be a coincidence, because it wasn't that kind of masculinity also in the like. His family wasn't most important to him. It wasn't about, like you know, I am provider and like beat my chest because I own a woman and these are, these are our offspring. It's like these people are the most important in the world to me and I'm so excited to see them after two weeks away and that's. That's a kind of positive masculinity we don't see often in um in media.
Speaker 2:So you know, and one of the things that's occurring to me in in the, the sort of examples that you're pulling out, like I'm trying to, I'm trying to see what the pattern is, and and one of the things that's occurring to me is about the difference with the nature of the conflict, whether the conflict is with another man, or the conflict is with oneself, or the conflict is with a task, right, and I think the conflict with the other man, it actually does work once. I mean not humor, but the direct, like standing up to curly, is still verbal, right, he doesn't need to beat curly at fisticuffs in order to win his respect, um, unlike the other two moments of conflict with other men.
Speaker 2:So I think that's worth noting, that that is a pattern interrupt, and it does say something about Curly's masculinity as much as about Mitch's, but I do think that that's worth naming and I also think sort of the conflict with nature or a task, as in this very hard thing that they don't know how to do, which is very masculine coded, which they do and it changes them in good ways, and also the conflict with themselves.
Speaker 2:And I think that is sort of. That's the one that's actually, in some ways, the most nuanced. It's not the same outcome every time, right, because each of these three men is facing conflict with himself in one way or another and they overcome it and they don't you know I think there's something like there. There is some there's. You're pointing to nuance around this, the way this film portrays masculinity, and I'm just underscoring other ways that there is still nuance Even in the bystander.
Speaker 2:De-escalation technique does not work. I'm not sure I fully agree with you. It doesn't work the way Mitch thinks it will. But I mean, even with Bonnie, it bought them time for Curly to show up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, Um one interesting moment that I had completely forgotten.
Speaker 1:So when Mitch is in the river and like it's, it's pretty dire. And so Phil and Ed, like they get to where there's a log that has kind of fallen into the river, um, and try and like ahead of where Mitch is to to, to grab him from the um currents, uh, and then Phil's the tallest, so he's reaching, and then he, the part of the trunk that he's on like breaks off, and so Ed has to grab him. So it's the three of them, um, and they, they finally get onto shore and it's a lovely moment of bonding between these three lifelong friends. And the thing that really stuck with me and I don't know I'm curious to know if it was in the script or if this was Bruno Kirby's acting choice but he kisses Billy Crystal on the forehead and he's like were gonna lose you, and that also, particularly in the early 90s, really struck me as like a very positive portrayal of, like male friendship and love, since they're I mean, heteronormativity is such a hell of a drug um it.
Speaker 2:It's not even heteronormativity is such a hell of a drug. It's not even heteronormativity, it is straight up homophobia. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's straight up homophobia, because it's not that we're making homosexual relationships, erasing them right or not seeing them, and it's like what you're reacting to is the lack of homophobia in that kiss on the forehead, that physical expression of affection, yeah, and you know particularly that it comes from the most macho of the three friends.
Speaker 2:The same one who said if Mitch dies, I'm going for Barbara.
Speaker 1:No, that was actually Phil who said that.
Speaker 2:Ew. I thought it was Ed Ew Ew Ew.
Speaker 1:Ew Phil Ew, I know, I know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like my opinion of Phil is different now than it was when I was a kid.
Speaker 1:Because, like, I think we all owe Arlene an apology, yeah, yeah. So, um, I did want to talk a little bit about, like, why this appealed to dad so much. Now, some of it had to do with the fact that it's a Western and he, he loveds, um, and so, like this, you know adventure story and dad also had two lifelong friends. Now they didn't go to pamplona or things like that, but there was a trio there that I could see dad seeing himself in this he totally saw himself as Billy Crystal.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, and there is something the word boomer has become so negative in the past 10, 15 years. But there is such a baby boomer sensibility to this film that I don't think is a bad thing it comes from. You know, these idealistic kids in the 60s get to the early 90s and life's not what they thought it was going to be.
Speaker 2:Right, right. This is not what they expected.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they grew up on television watching Bonanza and Rawhide and Red River, and so, like you know, yeah, they're doing like what we do, almost. They're looking to the media they consumed as children to get answers about what they're supposed to do. And hopeful and delightful about this film is that they go to those that media like, literally like they do what they saw, you know the heroes doing, but they make it work for themselves. Rather than remaking themselves in Curly's image or John Wayne's image, or TR and Jeff's image, you know, instead of becoming more like the crusty, hardened like this is the only thing a man can be they find the reality of manhood within themselves with the help of something that they have idealized their entire lives.
Speaker 2:That's interesting. Yeah, do you have any other points that you wanted to make sure that you make?
Speaker 1:before I try and synthesize what I said these are more fun facts than points, but I'm going to. Okay, let's hear it. So Billy Crystal had one other autobiographical moment the conversation about best day, worst day. His best day was he was seven years old. His father took him to yankee stadium for the first first time he'd ever gone to a game. That was actually billy crystal's experience. He's a lifelong yankees fan. He actually wears new york mets uh gear in the film because the mets had, um uh, donated quite a bit of money to his. I can't remember what the charity was called. There was a comedy charity that they would put on every year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't think of what it was called either. Yeah, the Red Nose. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he wore Mets gear, but he still said Yankees in that scene. It is so heartening to me, as someone who writes, to learn how much of themselves other, like really prolific and excellent creators, put into their art.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The other thing I learned was that Billy Crystal liked his horse so much that he rode that he bought it and kept it. It was, uh, and I think the horse was called beach nut. They had like eight different calves, um, to uh, to play norman, to play norman, and it was some sort of puppet that it was not a real cow giving birth, obviously, but, uh, they were calves that were like that newborn, like they, they. It wasn't like when you see a, a baby, on on screen, it's supposed to be a newborn. It's a three month old. Yeah, um, I mean, it was sure not like seconds old, but still so. So that was pretty cool. And then, um, I learned that bruno kirby is severely allergic to horses and he had to get like a shot before filming every day. Wow, and that's why he didn't come back for the sequel was because he's like I can't do the horses again.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Huh Neat. So just fun facts that I found that I thought like add to the charm of the movie, like we can be hard on on media, this is really worth revisiting and just recognizing like what it gets right.
Speaker 2:Um, even as we work to make better pop culture moving forward, yeah, all right, let me see if I can lift up some highlights. So this movie does pass the bechdel test, meaning there are at least two named female characters who talk to one another about something other than a man, and that is when barbara and Kim talk about Kim's lingerie modeling. So it passes in letter. So I think the big thing that I heard from you in your analysis of this is the really delightfully nuanced view of masculinity that the film offers, so that it paints sort of toxic, traditional masculinity in very unflattering light in the, in the people, in the persons of tr and jeff, who are the two cowboys who are really just awful and really reprehensible in in multiple ways. And it gives us other views of masculinity and and with these three protagonists and not just them, but especially these three protagonists who find ways to integrate the, who find ways to integrate the behaviors that are very masculine, coded specifically herding cattle and riding horses and rope tricks in this case into their existing personalities, which are not cowboys, that are not that sort of reprehensible, reprehensible toxic masculinity, which are not cowboys, that are not that sort of reprehensible toxic masculinity, that are not particularly physically confrontational. It showed us actually in the person of Mitch. It gave us a model of an effective bystander intervention.
Speaker 2:Actually wasn't that effective, though. We saw it several times and I think you were suggesting that, asking the question of the film. Like, what are you trying to tell us here, filmmakers? That this, actually, you know, legitimate strategy for bystander intervention never works for Mitch? And I think where you were landing and correct me if I'm wrong was that context matters and so perhaps that strategy was effective in New York City, but it's not effective in the Old West where, again, masculinity is constructed differently. I think that's part of where you were going. I think that's a legitimate read. I also wonder if we think about sort of maybe the filmmakers were giving us, pushing us to think about the ways to actually address conflict more directly, not necessarily physically, because the one time that Mitch is able in a conflict with another human, with another man, the one time that Mitch is able actually to diffuse it is when he directly addresses it, not physically he doesn't come to fisticuffs with Curly but he does directly address him verbally and that's how they there that he diffuses that conflict.
Speaker 1:I will say, and didn't mention it, but like what you were saying about how his intervention buys them time when the cowboys are bothering harassing. Thank you, that's what I'm looking for I also. He is like the like the breaking the seal kind of bystander. So we're like he's the one who goes and like, uses humor to try to deflect, and then other people come to support him. Yeah, and we need that person. Even if they're not able to completely diffuse the situation they, it is so helpful to have the first person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the Vanguard, yeah, then gives permission to others to also step forward and interview.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so that's that's something that I think is worth noting, because that, with the exception of when it's just him and Curly, which kind of also underlines like that he couldn't be the vanguard because it was just him and Curly.
Speaker 2:But when there were other people, he started with humor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, people, he started with humor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that's a really like interesting piece. That, whether we put it with gender or not thinking about but what it means to to have an effective bystander intervention and like what are the components of that. The fact that this movie gave us some of that is really, really interesting. Uh, that I I was not anticipating when you, when we sat down to talk about this.
Speaker 2:One key takeaway for me is, like phil is not the sort of lovable, henpecked husband that I remember, that he's a lot more toxic than I remember, that I think in the 90s we kind of overlooked it because it was normal I'm putting quotes around that because normal is as normal does but it was, yeah, it was normal. It was like what we were seeing that was, it was not only was it a trope, it was also like that kind of behavior out of a man and wasn't acceptable was something we were expected to accept in our protagonists and and just in in life. So I think that that's an interesting thing for me. Like, I'm definitely feeling like I owe Arlene an apology retroactively for the way that I thought about her in the nineties.
Speaker 2:Another piece of the masculinity that I didn't name but relates to our father is the fact that we see Mitch we're not as viewers, we don't question his manhood, right Like we don't think less of him because he's a nurturer and because his family is his one thing. We actually think more of him and I think that's something really worth like lifting up and also reminds us of our dad, who you pointed out was very much a nurturer, like waved at babies, like I've never seen him more Papa bear than when my kid was born, and like somebody dared smoke, like within a hundred yards of her.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, I didn't know that, but I can imagine. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:So, um. So, what did? What did I forget? What did I miss in my highlights tour that you want to make sure that you lift up?
Speaker 1:Um, along with the, the normality of arlene, you know, just like we accept that she's awful, um, we accept the normality of bonnie being like a prize prize, yeah, yeah, um rather than a person in her own right, even though I will say the movie does give her a little bit more agency than prizes often did right in the 90s.
Speaker 1:So, like the conversation where she's like I like baseball, fine, I just don't want to talk about it all the time and actually one of the things, um, phil says when she says that she's like I like baseball, but I talk about real things. And then Ed is a noxious asshole but Phil then says you know the I get what you're saying, but when I was 18 and my dad and I couldn't talk about anything, we could talk about baseball and so, like there is something I feel like that moment spoke to our dad too in a way, I don't know, and it's not like he was a huge baseball fan. But there are things like that, I think, with 20th century American men where, like the people that they love can't talk about the things that matter because they've been taught that they're not allowed to, and so they make sure that baseball statistics matter.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that that was a lovely moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the oh. The other thing I forgot is race in this film. So we do have Ben and steve steve, thank you the father, son, dentists from baltimore who are black um, and we. We talked briefly about the fact that sort of steve, the younger um, the younger dentist, has a little bit of a chip on his shoulder like he's expecting racism, and his dad, kind of asked, you know, de-escalates a bit. And also the fact that in the movie, like other movies of the time, like one might have expected, if they wanted to so-called to, you know, quote-unquote diversify the cast, they would have done so with someone who was a different socioeconomic status. So by making these two men dentists and actually other tourists, there was, to a certain, in my mind, that is a step up from what it could have been, which would have been like it was cookie or, god forbid, one of the one or both of the Cowboys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that that was intentional, though that they made sure that both cowboys were white well, thank god yeah, yeah for reals.
Speaker 2:Thank god that they did that, they that they did that, because I think you know, without thinking about it, I can imagine a white filmmaker doing that and really contributing to some of the worst kind of racial stereotypes in. Because? Because the harassment of bonnie was essential yes to the story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the other thing that um ben and steve offer is a really positive portrayal of a father-son relationship.
Speaker 2:Adult father-son relationship which we don't have from any of the three protagonists.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, because, like, we know that Mitch's dad is alive because he's on the call when his mom calls to wish him a happy birthday. But, like, other than the story about seeing the baseball game at age seven, we don't really know much about his dad. And then, yeah, we, like we know that uh ed has a terrible relationship with his father because he hasn't seen him since he was 14, and um phil says his father was proud of him on the day of his wedding, which is part of the reason why it was the best day of his life right so, but like getting to see that on screen, where there's this lovely relationship, these, these two men who clearly care deeply about each other, to the point where they share a dental practice, that's amazing.
Speaker 1:And they want to spend more time together and they want to spend more time together. They choose to go on vacation together and when Ben is like we'll have fun on this adventure taking Cookie to get medical attention, like it's just, it's the, it's kind of the lesson that Mitch learns, which is like being grateful for what you have, so like I get to have time with my son. It's not what we planned, it's not exactly what we want, but we can still make it fun and we're in the best place to do this because we have the most medical training of anyone here right, right, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:So in the end I want to reiterate what my sister said we're hard on media sometimes, but it sounds like this one is worth the rewatch, though I don't think they could make it again, because cell phones, yeah, or sad phones, I guess.
Speaker 1:I don't know well, it's funny because the, the um, ira and barry have a cell phone and like it's hard to remember, but I know that that was the butt of the joke at one point like can you believe these people are bringing what is this cell phone thing? And I was just like now it's so normal. I'm just like, oh yeah, that's supposed to be funny, right, right, but it gets destroyed in the stampede, so, which is why they don't use it.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, um, next week I am going to bring you my deep thoughts about blade runner. Oh, it's another movie I associate with dad Me too, completely, in fact. We'll talk about this next week. But the reason that it's on the list and that I want to talk about it is because in my mind, it is like like the quintessential science fiction movie. Yeah, according to our dad. Yeah, like I don't know if he would actually agree with that now like if we could resurrect him and talk to him, like if he would say, like, but in my mind that's the perfect science fiction movie according to him. So that's why it's on the list and that's what we're going to. I think that may be even why I thought of it after you were. We put City Slickers on the list.
Speaker 1:I was like oh yeah, dad.
Speaker 2:Let's dig in. So Blade Runner Sounds good. See you then, I'll see you then. Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy. But don't wait, there's a limited quantity. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember, pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?