.png)
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about Revenge of the Nerds
NERDS!!!
On today’s episode of Deep Thoughts, Emily shares her analysis (and horrified shuddering) about the oddly influential 1984 film Revenge of the Nerds. Though the filmmakers thought they were writing the “gentle and funny underdog story” that Gene Siskel characterized the movie as, Nerds treats women as less-than-human trophies by using sexual assault as a punchline. While the film does accept Lamar Latrelle’s open homosexuality as NBD (but still pokes fun at stereotypical gay behavior), the majority of the humor relies on misogyny, racism, homophobia, and fatphobia while the film undercuts its own message by telling nerds they can beat the jocks at their own game–which continues to have devastating consequences 40 years later.
Content warning: Discussions of rape by deception, revenge porn and pedophilia.
Throw on your headphones and join us in the unenlightened early 80s…
Mentioned in this episode:
The Oral History of Revenge of the Nerds
Reconsidering Revenge: How Revenge Of The Nerds‘ Misogyny Is Evident In Current Nerd Culture
Siskel & Ebert - Revenge of the Nerds (1984)
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I will be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1984 film Revenge of the Nerds with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come over, think with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Speaker 1:So, tracy, tell me what you remember about this oddly influential film.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember, like I remember the rough plot as there is one. You know, these kids misfits who the Greek, the fraternities, don't want, and so they get together and form their own fraternity. And I have strong memory of like a black man in two short shorts and a headband, and I remember sort of the end, like oh, there there's a pie selling contest or something, and there's like naked pictures of a girl at the bottom of the pie as the popular girl's boyfriend and they have sex in like a bounce house or something. And then the movie makers make us okay with the fact that he raped her by deception, by making her like it, and I remember being like it's out by that, even as a teenager. Um, and that's about it. That's what I remember. But why are we talking about this?
Speaker 1:oh. So this film has been on our list for a while and the first time it kind of came up I was like I'm not in the right headspace to watch this movie and think about it. But as I said, this is a strangely influential film. It is remembered fondly by a lot of people and I wanted to talk about it because I remember being icked out by it as like a very small child, so I'm sure I didn't. It came out in 1984. I'm certain I did not see it then when you were five, when I was five.
Speaker 1:But I believe I was still in elementary school when I saw it for the first time and it was a sort of film that would show up on like just on TV, and I'm sure there was a TV version where they edited stuff. Part of the reason why it stuck with me was that rape by deception scene was horrifying to me and I know I felt kind of bifurcated by this film because I thought of myself as a nerd.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But the nerds would not have accepted me. A lot of the toxic masculinity culture, including incels, and the violence against women that we see. And what's really kind of overwhelming and upsetting to me is that the filmmakers thought that they were making a commentary about discrimination and they made some very intentional parallels between the plight of these nerds and racial discrimination. And man, oh man, did they miss the mark? And yet this is a. You know a lot of people think about this fondly. It launched a franchise. There were like four movies. Oh really, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I didn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there was a follow up that was released in the theaters. And then there were two more that were like made for TV, straight to video or something, yeah, yeah. And then there have been other like there have been talks about a reboot there have been. There was at some point in the 2000s Curtis Armstrong and Robert Carradine did a reality show about like beating the nerd or something like that. I don't remember exactly what it was, so like it's still in the in cultural consciousness and I really think we need to talk about it and talk about why we are so primed to believe that awkward nerdy doesn't fit in, necessarily equals, marginalized or discriminated against.
Speaker 2:Interesting.
Speaker 1:This one, I'm going to say buckle up because it's going to be a tough one. The basic plot, as you say it's we meet Gilbert and Lewis. Gilbert is played by Anthony Edwards. Lewis is played by Robert Carradine. They are high school best friends who are going to Adams University together. They are dropped off and you know they are stereotypical nerds in the way that they look. You know the big glasses. They have button up shirts. All the way up to their neck they're wearing pocket protectors with pens and things like that. Their neck they're wearing pocket protectors with pens and things like that.
Speaker 1:We are also immediately introduced to the most popular fraternity on campus, the Alpha Betas, because there is one Alpha Beta, his name is Ogre and he's this big hulk of a football player and he is hanging someone off the balcony of the Alpha Beta fraternity house by his ankles and he sees Lewis and Gilbert walking across campus with their trunk, because Lewis's dad dropped them off just randomly somewhere instead of at their dorm. So they're carrying this very heavy trunk all the way across campus. So they're carrying this very heavy trunk all the way across campus. Uh, one of many things. That just makes no sense anyway. Uh. So ogre sees them and shouts nerds and drops the guy and nothing ever happens. So this is our introduction to the alpha betas.
Speaker 1:The head of that fraternity is stan gable. He is played by ted mcginley, who you would recognize if you saw him. He played a neighbor on Married with Children and apparently he was cast because he was a model or like at his University of Southern California. He was on the cover of like the I don't know magazine or like the alumni magazine, something like that, and someone saw him and he is remarkably handsome and so like oh, he's perfect, he's exactly who we want and he also had been doing like, modeling and acting. The alpha betas end up burning down their fraternity house. It's an accident but it's entirely their fault. There's a guy doing fireballs. He's spitting like 180 proof alcohol and lighting it on fire and he does that towards the curtains. Entire house burns down and the coach who was played by John Goodman. So weird.
Speaker 1:I know and my goodness, I've never seen him looking so young and he's so handsome, so like, and it's like I just anyway. He basically allows the football players to say that yeah, it must be faulty wiring, and you know, and bowls over the dean and they're like well, where are the Alpha Beta's going to sleep? We need them to be well-rested for their football games. So they go to the freshman dorms, which is where Lewis and Gilbert are, and they kick out and literally throw one guy out of the window, these kids out of the freshman dorms, and they set them up in a gymnasium with cots. And the dean says to these kids not to worry, we're allowing you to rush fraternities even though you're freshmen, and so you can get housing through fraternity. So, starting tomorrow, and so most of the people who are displaced end up joining a fraternity. But Lewis and Gilbert and the rest of the misfits are not allowed into the fraternities. So they start looking for other places to live. They find a dilapidated old house that they're able to buy and there's the most 80s montage scene ever, including a robot cleaning up the house. It's baffling. They get the house all cleaned up.
Speaker 1:Now Stan, played by Ted McGinley, the head of the Alpha Betas. His girlfriend is named Betty, she is the head of Pi Delta Pi sorority and they are riding by on his motorcycle and she's like, wow, the nerds really did a terrific job with that house. And he's like it's not gonna be terrific for long. And so that night they throw the alpha betas, throw a rock through the window that says nerds, get out. So gilbert and lewis and friends go to the police who say, yeah, unfortunately, this is, uh, probably this looks like a greek prank and there's the only thing you can do is go to the greek council again. It's just, none of this is how this works. So they go to the Greek council and Stan is the president of the Greek council and basically has power over everything, and he says basically no, we can't do anything because you're not in a fraternity, you have to be part of Greek life in order for it. So I'm like so basically anyone in a Greek fraternity can do anything to a civilian and nothing happens to them. Okay, so they apply for something like 30 different fraternities. They get turned down, all of them saying like you shouldn't have sent a picture, because they sent a picture of the group. And there's you shouldn't have sent a picture, because they sent a picture of the group and there's one that they didn't send a picture to. It's Lambda Lambda. Lambda, also known as Tri-Lam, which we learn after they get a conditional acceptance, is a historically black fraternity. So they get there, they get to the meeting. So they get there, they get to the meeting.
Speaker 1:Un jefferson is the name of the head of lambda lambda, lambda, um, he is played by and I'm forgetting his name, but he is a former football player who became an actor who honestly brings a level of gravitas to this film that I was glad to see. And he initially is like I don't know, I you know you're, you're nerds, like it's, it's very much like we don't want you cause you're nerds. And one of the nerds Poindexter, played by Timothy Bussman, who you would recognize if you saw him, even though he is unrecognizable in this film. He plays the brother-in-law in Field of Dreams. He says well, actually, according to your bylaws, you have to allow us like a 60-day probationary period. And Jefferson's second in command says actually, that's true, says actually, that's true. And so the first thing that the nerds do that Jefferson actually kind of approves of is he says well, don't worry, we're going to be very welcoming. We will not turn anyone away based on race, religion, creed.
Speaker 1:And then the one guy that you remember the character's name is Lamar Luttrell. He's played by Larry B Scott. He's a black man who is very obviously gay in in in you know very eighties kind of way, and he says, or sexual orientation. And so Jefferson had been starting to be like okay, and then Lamar says that and he's like he, he scowls again, kind of. So they say, okay, well, we're going to throw a party. You know, as a welcoming thing, they ask the Pi Delta Pies, um or no? The Pi Delta Pies offer to come be their dates for this party, and so they're super excited about it. Lewis has a crush on Betty, and then, of course, none of them show up.
Speaker 1:In the meantime, gilbert has met a girl nerd from the Omega Mu sorority. It's the only time that anyone seems to actually have a kind of real interaction with a woman who's not a mom, with the exception of the fact that, like, even though she's a girl nerd, she doesn't seem to be good at anything. Like she's having trouble with her computer, and so he's like oh, no, no, no, it's really cool and he's showing her how to do stuff with it and he, like, it's another moment of computers are magic, because he just manages to bring up a like, create an image of her and him holding hands with a 1984 computer and keyboard and a keystroke and keystrokes, yeah, like. He draws like, uh, glasses and then then, you know, draws her face and her hair, hair and like, and it's just like no, anyway. So her name is Judy. Judy is at the party, she's like well, my sorority could come.
Speaker 1:Curtis Armstrong, the, his character is Booger Ugh, and to the, to the point where I think of curtis armstrong as either booger or herbert viola, from um, moonlighting, so like, every time I see him, I, I, I hear the, uh, his love interest, say herbert in that name, in that voice, or I hear it's booger, like he. Just that's how strong this association is with this actor. Anyway, booger says don't have the Omega Moos come, they're all pigs, ew. And they then have this extended scene of them arriving when we are made sure to to to get in a view of every single one of these unattractive women. And I just read this morning that the women playing the Omega Moose, the extras, were real college students. They filmed on the University of Arizona campus and so these are just regular women. It's so gross. Now they do make it clear that not clear Booger starts having a good time. He's partying with some of these women. Everyone kind of ends up like pairing off or or something and enjoying themselves, but it's still very much a.
Speaker 2:So what we're meant to like? Forgive them for judging the girls, because they have a good time with them anyway, despite the fact that they're pigs. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know. And they only start having a good time like the party's just dead. Lamar and his date, who is a guy, are the only people dancing, and jefferson and his second in command are there just kind of standing around. And so at one point lewis says I don't know if they like this music, I'm going to put on something that they might like better. And so he changes the music and he puts on um swing, low, sweet chariot, which lamar immediately goes and turns off.
Speaker 2:He puts on a negro spiritual yes to appeal to the two black guys who are the head of those historically black fraternity that they're trying to create a chapter of.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh, all right different things are going on. Judy plays uh, plays the accordion and sings. Jefferson kind of appreciates that. They try, try a couple of different things. And then finally Booger gets out some joints and passes them around, and that's when everyone starts having a really good time, of course. And one of the nerd girls propositions Lewis and they go upstairs. In the midst of this, the Alpha Betas show up and release pigs into the house and then when they managed, the nerds managed to corral the pigs out of the house. They're on this like wagon that's got Adams University on it. So this is like college stuff. And they I don't know what, I don't remember what they say, but they end up mooning them and insulting them.
Speaker 2:Wait, the Alpha Betas are mooning them. The Alpha Betas are mooning the nerds and the Alpha Betas are sitting on an Adams University cart of some kind.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah. It's a truck with a with a wagon attached like breaks up the party. They're really upset and the nerds are like, well, we need to retaliate. Lewis says I know exactly what we're going to do. The next scene they're playing the mission impossible music and they go on a panty raid in the pie Delta pie house and they go on a panty raid in the Pi Delta Pi house. The panty raid is a distraction from the fact that they are actually wiring the house with cameras and then they spend the night watching these women getting undressed my God and a panty raid.
Speaker 2:They run through the house and steal underwear. Is that what that means?
Speaker 1:Yes, and they like. They managed to see several naked women during this panty raid. It is so gross, it's so nasty, and these are our protagonists. These are our heroes.
Speaker 2:And we're supposed to sympathize with them because they've been rejected by the popular people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's one thing they do. It's also, you know, while the Pi Delta Pi said they'd be at the party and didn't show up, which is a social faux pas, it's the Alpha Betas who released the pigs and mooned them, and we're like. So why are they getting revenge on the Pi Delta Pis pies?
Speaker 2:well, it's because they belong to the alpha betas you know, they're not people of their own rights.
Speaker 1:They didn't make their own decision. These, they're just pawns in this game yeah the next thing that they do is they get it's basically like bengay, like a heating oil or something like that, and they put it in the jock straps of all the uh the football players and that is also kind of assault.
Speaker 2:Uh, not okay, but that at least was taking revenge on the right people yeah you know, like I'm not saying I condone that, but in a movie called Revenge of the Nerds, that's the kind of thing that I yeah, and it it doesn't do permanent damage and it's not psychologically like you know, like it's very, very uncomfortable for those men like that one.
Speaker 1:If that had been the revenge, like I don't want my kid doing it, but it's kind of funny, yeah. Yeah. They end up telling Jefferson about what they've done and apparently in the 80s the belief was that that's what fraternities were supposed to be about. Because Jefferson is delighted and says oh, I'm so proud of you for retaliating, I see, and what? So they are duly inducted, they send a picture of themselves to the Trilam office and you see Jefferson very proudly putting it up on the wall with the other chapters, jefferson very proudly putting it up on the wall with the other chapters. And as they are toasting the inception of this new fraternity, they look outside and the Alphabetas have put up the word nerds and flaming like a flaming effigy of the word nerds on their front porch.
Speaker 2:The Adams house, the Alphabeta house, stan and Ogres, no, no, alphabetas are the bad guys, yes, the jocks, yes, and they've done. They're burning the word nerds on the front lawn of what house? The nerds house At Adams, not where Jefferson is.
Speaker 1:No, this is after you know. We don't see Jefferson and the Lambdas or the nerds interact with each other again until the end of the film. So, like they have mailed the picture to Jefferson and it is after they have received the like acceptance. So the word nerds is being burned on the front lawn of the Trilam house. They again go to the police, who refers them once again to the Greek council. The dean says this is very clearly alphabeta. We need to take a vote. And Stan, as the president of the Greek council, says no, we're not going to, and like well, you can't do that. He's like well, no, I'm president of the Greek council. Pretty much anything I say goes Like. I mean, that's, that's the rule. Get justice is if one of them becomes the president of the Greek council, and the way this happens is whichever fraternity and sorority pairing wins, the homecoming carnival gets to choose the Greek council president for the next year. That is not how any of this works, but okay.
Speaker 1:So there are several things. There's like a homecoming Olympics type thing. There's a charity fundraiser and there is a talent show. So those are the three things and there is a talent show. So those are the three things. So for the Olympics.
Speaker 1:The first one is riding a tricycle, but it's 20 laps, but at the end of each lap you have to chug a beer. This is a college-sponsored event. So the nerds have some sort of drug that they give their competitor, who is a very offensive japanese stereotype named takashi, that counteracts the effects of the beer, so he wins. There is a tug of war, the nerds are up against the alpha betas and they just let go of the rope and let the alpha betas fall over. Like you win, knowing that they can't win with that. They have male versus female, like so fraternity versus sorority, arm wrestling. What the joke with that?
Speaker 1:One is one of the omega moos, which is judy's sorority of the non-attractive women, nearly beats Ogre like the big brutish guy. And then there's a javelin throw where they have, like the ROTC and Alpha Betas and one other fraternity all do very well with the javelin throw. Lamar does that, doesn't he? Lamar does that, one't he that one? I remember that they. There is a 12 year old in the fraternity who, because he's very gifted, he goes to college at age 12 and he and lamar are like best friends and actually that is one of the only lovely things in the movie is the relationship between Lamar and a Wormser. Is the care, is the 12 year old's name, but even that like, lamar is helping Wormser to like put the cameras in to spy on the women. And they're all there as it's like a wobbly javelin.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, and it's because Wormser is an aerodynamics expert and so he has specifically designed the javelin to work best with Lamar's limp, wristed throwing technique. So they win that. It's neck and neck when they get to the charity.
Speaker 2:Fundraising.
Speaker 1:Fundraising. The Alpha Betas and the Pi Delta Pis are doing a kissing booth.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Which is so nasty Like. First of all, post-covid, I'm just like ew, nasty like first of all, post-covid I'm just like ew you're all getting communicable diseases, ew, ew, ew, ew.
Speaker 1:And it even says, like you know, small, medium, large kiss, and then with tongue. So like small kiss is 50 cents, with tongue is $5. Oh and so Lewis has bought his ticket and this is presumably homecoming, is close to Halloween, cause everyone's in costumes has bought his ticket and says and gets up to where Betty is, is giving out kisses, and says like hey, now you got to kiss me. And she's like no, he's like well, I bought my ticket. And she's like well, well, it's about time for my break. And so she walks off and they bring in a large woman to be like here's who you're kissing oh cool fat phobia.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's hit them all yeah and uh, stan is dressed in this kind of like off-brand darth vader, like I remember it being darth vader, but it's not it's.
Speaker 1:It's like a weird mask thing and he's wearing like a vampire like cape cape, uh-huh and um lewis is dressed as like a magician, because he's got a top hat and he's also got a black cape. And stan uh betty goes to stan, says like all this kissing is turning me on, like let's, let's go somewhere and do it. And he's, and he says to her like you're a goat, because she does say I'm horny, but I, I, I don't know, I don't, I don't know, I don't. So Stan puts his hat and mask down and Betty goes off towards what did they call it? It's like on the moon and so like it's, it's like a maze or like but it's like inflatable right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like a fun house, but in the middle there's the moonwalk, which is where there's like a moon bounce type thing.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:So Louis takes the mask, follows Betty and basically has sex with her, without it's suggested that he goes down on her, which I don't know, but he doesn't take the mask off. I mean I, yeah, it's like I think he he tells her, no, he's not taking the mask off, and I think he like lifts it up because she's still fully clothed afterwards and okay.
Speaker 2:What else?
Speaker 1:And she says to him you've done things you've never done to me before uh-huh yeah.
Speaker 2:And he says like I remember later the punchline like nerds think about sex all the time because we aren't having any yeah, oh, it's so nasty, it's so awful, and like you know you cut away, come back.
Speaker 1:And she's like, oh, you. And like you know you cut away, come back. And she's like, oh, you've done things you've never done to me before. And he comes up without the mask on. She's like, oh, you're that nerd. And she's not. She's like she's surprised. But then she's like that was amazing, what's your name? And like is okay with it. And then she says to him meet me later after the pep rally. Meanwhile Stan is like, oh man, we're bringing in so much money, we're going to, we're going to win the charity fundraiser. And another one of the alpha betas says, no, actually, like they're they more at the. The nerds are selling more than like what, they're just selling pie. I don't get it. And so it turns out that their pies are just. It's a pie plate with a picture of one of the pie delta pies glued to the bottom, and then they put whipped cream on top. Just a little bit of whipped cream on top.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a nudie picture from their hidden cameras?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, so you know revenge, porn, sexual assault, and this is interesting. They have ogre go and get one of the pies like he eats all the the whipped cream. He's like I don't get it, it's just whipped cream. And then they look at it and they they say like it's just a pie. And then he sees like actually it's betty. And he's like that's my pie because she's a pie delta pie and it's supposed to be like there's there's like so many gross jokes about pie and hair pie and the pie delta pie is like delta's a triangle and at one point stan says there's something fishy about that pie and like it's all these just not so like, but that's my pie is supposed to be, again, like that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:But ted mcginley's a good enough actor that I actually feel like he's upset, you know, in that like that is his girlfriend, with whom he presumably has a loving relationship. You know, like just, he just sounds upset as he should be and even though it's a like that's mine kind of upset. But there's also a like, a devastation, like oh my god, how did they get this picture of this woman that I care about? It's just. We then go to the talent show. They're kind of gross sexual innuendo about a bunch of stuff. There's one unrelated fraternity that actually they have a standup routine where one says to the other what did the pink Panther say when he stepped on on a bug, dead, ant, dead ant, dead ant, dead ant, dead ant, which you know, whatever, it's fine. And then it was. The other. One says like, yeah, what did, uh, what did June say to Ward Cleaver? You were a little too hard on the beaver last night. Solid, I mean, that is solid innuendo. So there's that. There's the row, row, row. It has a row, row, row your boat thing, but they mime like fellatio. The alpha betas and the pi delta pies do this thing it's gender bent thing, where the alpha betas are dressed as cheerleaders, because the pi delta pies are all the cheerleaders, and the pi delta pies are dressed as football players and they sing the song. It's actually kind of it's. It's pretty cool and kind of cute.
Speaker 1:And then we get to the nerds and they do this like Devo type thing where it's Lewis and Gilbert are dressed in like yellow jumpsuits, kind of like Devo and like pretending to do like electronic music. And then they have Booger dressed as Elvis Presley, they have Poindexter, timothy Bussman, who has been clear all along, he's terrible at violin but he's doing like electric violin and it's actually really pretty cool. Then in comes Lamar dressed as Michael Jackson and he does this like kind of rap. It is very, very early 80s but it's actually pretty cool. I mean, and some of it is it's come back around again. So you know 40 years later, I mean, and some of it is it's come back around again, so you know 40 years later like you can see the cool of it. And then he brings out Wormser and he and Wormser dance together. They do like pop and lock and like the robot and stuff like that. But Takashi, the Japanese character, is dressed as a Native American in full headdress. So even this one moment where I was like this is actually really cool and I really am enjoying this.
Speaker 1:Oh boy, with that, the nerds win the carnival. And Lewis says we want Gilbert to be the president of the Greek council and, like everybody wins, all happy good. And Lewis says we want Gilbert to be the president of the Greek council and, like everybody wins, all happy good. Well, coach Harris, john Goodman, he takes the football players, who are all still dressed as cheerleaders, back to the locker room and he's like I want you girls back in the locker room right now. And he yells at them about how you know, when they were babies, their fathers, all he wanted was. He wanted was for them to be men, and they let nerds beat them. And are they going to let nerds beat them? They're not real men, real nasty stuff, and so still dressed as cheerleaders, which I think is significant.
Speaker 1:Stan and the rest of the Alpha Betas go and completely trash the Trilambda house. Completely trash the Trilambda house, and the nerds come back. They find the mess. Their robot that they had, you know, helped them with all kinds of stuff is destroyed and they're all really upset trying to clean it up. And Gilbert's like it doesn't matter what we do, we're always going to be nerds. And he's like I just need to go get some air. And he goes walking back to where the pep rally is. The alpha betas are back in their regular clothing and they are like attacking him and they push him into a fountain. So he's he's like completely soaking wet. And then Coach Harris gets involved and is about to throw a punch and the dean finally stands up to him and says like look, he's just a boy, you need to stop. And Harris like is about to go attack the dean when some deep bass music comes on and here come all the Trilambas.
Speaker 2:So From other campuses, From yes comes on and here come all the tri-lamdas, so From other campuses. Yes, so the historically black fraternity members.
Speaker 1:Yes, All show up, all dressed in three-piece suits. Apparently. That's enough to intimidate Coach Harris to get him to stop. And he, he says to Gilbert, who had been trying to get the microphone here, say what you have to say. And so Gilbert basically is like you know, I'm a nerd, I'm proud of myself, you know. Like you know, just because I don't fit in doesn't mean I deserve to be treated like crap. And then Lewis comes along, is like you know, I'm a nerd. You know and I bet some of you are nerds too who else feels like a nerd sometimes? And so Betty comes and joins him because she's in love with a nerd now, Because, anyway, people start joining in and the nerds win. Basically, People start joining in and the nerds win, basically. So the only moment in the film that I actually laughed is when, like, who else feels like a nerd and the entire marching band comes across to join them Like no hesitation. And that has more to do with my experience having been in marching band, that's cute.
Speaker 1:Because there are the other groups, there is some hesitation, but like marching band's, like oh yeah, those are my people, oh, and that I, I haven't even like there's.
Speaker 2:there's a bunch of stuff that I've skipped over and we've been talking for over 40 minutes. So, yeah, it's a mess. So in this movie that was supposed to be like pointing out how ridiculous discrimination is it actually perpetuated sexism, racism, homophobia, fat phobia.
Speaker 1:Anti-intellectualism. What am I missing? Transphobia, misogyny. No, I haven't gotten to the transphobia, because when Gilbert meets Judy, he's really excited and at lunch he's talking to Booger and Lewis about it and he says like, oh, yeah, yeah, I met a girl, it's great. And Booger says, well, did you get in her pants? And he says, well, she's not that kind of girl. And Booger says, oh, so does she have a penis? Is she that kind of girl? Or something along those lines. And it's like the like. The implications are just the like. The implications are just yeah, like and that that line. And I was just like, oh, wow, I wasn't expecting to get transphobia too. It's an equal opportunity offensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I want to talk about what they think they were doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd like to hear what you you know where, what, what your analysis of that is. I'd also I'd love to get it. You started this whole thing by saying it was like surprisingly beloved, so I'd like to get at some of that, if you have speculation, so let's start with what the movie makers meant to do.
Speaker 1:So I think the movie makers were trying to say that discrimination is wrong. I think that's what they were trying to say, and I kind of get where they think they're saying that, because the thing that I kept coming back to as I was watching it last night was like my God, the Alphabetas are being so mean for no reason. You know like they're throwing their weight around in ways that just don't make sense, and it's easy to see that easy to see that in a film where the distinctions between them is, you know, like relative social aptitude, attractiveness, you know interests, you know like sportiness, that sort of thing, sportiness that sort of thing. So seeing the like ogre immediately go nerds the minute he sees them and be like like trying to menace them is like very clearly, like what the hell is wrong with you. You're being so mean. Whereas seeing someone have that kind of reaction now, granted, it's over the top because it's a sex comedy romp. But having someone have that kind of reaction now, granted, it's over the top because it's a sex comedy romp. But having someone have that kind of like negative, nasty, menacing reaction towards a marginalized group that has we have more traditionally accepted as marginalized would not have have us immediately go like why are you being so mean? Why are you being so mean? Why are you being so nasty? We'd be like well, okay, traditionally it's not okay for you to be so mean, but I understand why you're being like that towards blah, blah, blah, blah, because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever.
Speaker 1:So I feel like that's what they think they're doing. They think that they are trying to show how unreasonable and ridiculous discrimination and prejudice is by doing it towards a group that, prior to this, did not necessarily have a rallying cry, did not necessarily have a cohesive group feeling, have a rallying cry, did not necessarily have a cohesive group feeling. So, like people who were nerds prior to this, might've felt alone and didn't feel like they had a group dynamic that they could rely on to be like you know, okay, we can, we can work together. And so they were very intentional in, like the Trilams being a historically black fraternity, they wanted to draw that, that parallel, and that moment where he puts on the spiritual I.
Speaker 1:I like I'm honestly not sure about that moment because, on the one hand, they very immediately make it clear that lewis is wrong to do and that he is like overstepping because Lamar immediately takes it off. But there's no like hey, dude, that's not okay. And there was apparently a deleted scene where Lewis and Gilbert go to like the meeting of the tri-lamdas to meet other chapters and they dress in like like the meeting of the Trilambas to meet other chapters and they dress in like like traditional African garb to try to to fit in and it's the well-meaning white person type thing and it feels like what the film is trying to do is poke fun at. You know, lewis is so smart he's, he gets so many things and he's so completely clueless about this.
Speaker 2:Um, well, he's clueless about all social things, right? So race is just one more factor, a social factor around which he is clueless, right? Like, the whole point is he doesn't fit into any society. Why would he fit into this one? Yeah, yeah, so, which is maybe why it wasn't like come on, man, that's not okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, because, like, when he makes sort of socially awkward moments in other ways, by wearing pocket protectors or whatever, and I I think like part of what gets me and this is like with 40 years of hindsight is when Lewis and Gilbert are carrying this enormous trunk all the way across campus because Lewis's dad dropped them off in a random spot instead of where their dorm was.
Speaker 1:They are walking across the quad and they're carrying this trunk over top of other people and, like they, they cause a bicycle to derail and they they break up this picnic that these two girls are having and I know it's supposed to be this funny, like oh, they're so clueless, but to me it was just like that's such a like entitled thing to do and I know that that is not what they were going for, but that kind of like you can't blame us, we're clueless.
Speaker 1:You know, weaponized incompetence is what got me and obviously, like I can see someone going like oh, it's just a gag, you're taking it too seriously. But there's a point where they carry it over top of there's a boy and a girl lying on the ground kissing and are unaware that they're over top of them and Lewis and Gilbert are unaware that they're underneath of them and it's like clearly a very heavy trunk. They could have killed them if they dropped it, or at least seriously harmed them, and so, like that's my, my initial impression of them are these these are, like you know, rampaging wildebeests who are like, oh, you can't blame me, I don't mean anything by it and that is very privileged state of being.
Speaker 1:that because they are young white men they can get away with Like Lamar is in a lot of ways my favorite character because he understands the world he's navigating Well.
Speaker 2:My dude is genuinely marginalized in multiple ways as a black gay man in the 1980s yes.
Speaker 1:To the point where Larry B Scott, who played him, had difficulty after this because people assumed he was really gay and that was actually a problem for actors in the 80s. And part of the reason why I like him is he's also the one who recognizes that Wormser is a kid and he takes care of him. I think that that's what the, the, the filmmakers were trying to do. Now they clearly the filmmakers clearly do not recognize that women are people.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:To the point where sometime in the last five or ten years and I'll link to this in the show notes they talk about, I think, on the wikipedia page about revenge of the nerds. They the rape by deception storyline. They talk about it and the filmmakers make the most mealy mouth apology for it. Like, yeah, I don't think we'd do that if we made the movie now and I guess I wouldn't like it if someone did that to my daughter.
Speaker 2:Oh, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but again only in relation to how a woman belongs to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Does this man recognize? That is wrong yeah and then with the things like burning nerds on the front porch, that is, you know very clearly yeah, meant to parallel kkk burning across and I mean, do you know? Do you know that? Uh, the reason why the ku klux klan has the name that it does is because it was created like a Greek organization.
Speaker 2:Fraternity. I did not know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which when I learned that because they were trying to get the same kind of like social capital that Greek organizations did, I was always very uncomfortable with Greek organizations did. I was always very uncomfortable with Greek organizations and I went to a school that did have them, but it was not a very big part of campus because, like three cheers for misogyny, my school did not admit women until the late 1960s and so because of that there was never really much of a sorority presence on campus and without like sororities, fraternities have a little harder time dominating campus life. So because of that I could easily ignore the fraternities on my campus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in my school there was no Greek on campus whatsoever. Yeah, and they even like there are some historically black fraternities that got like special permission to have like off campus um, while I was there immediately after. So I like this movie is actually my sum total of understanding of greek life at all, because I, because my uh alma mater didn't have any greek on campus and because of this movie, like I wasn't interested at all, not even a little. So that was a selling point to me when I was looking for schools, that Oberlin had no Greek on campus, I was like, oh, bonus, yes, because of this movie.
Speaker 1:So the other thing that the filmmakers were trying to do and in some ways I think they succeeded was showing the importance of acceptance. If you're male, everyone accepts Lamar. Like there are some comments. So when they're talking about having a party, lamar's like, well, I've got a date, and Booger goes like, yeah, but it's a guy.
Speaker 1:But that's about as much pushback as we get from the Lambda members themselves. The nerds themselves and everyone else is like welcomed and invited to just enjoy themselves and find a home in this fraternity of nerds. So like there's something kind of understandable about that. Like I, I, I get what they're trying to do there, but the problem is like it only it's only true for the men. As for why it's beloved what I was mentioning before about how, prior to this film, I think nerds felt isolated, often so people who were either self-professed nerds or actually I don't think you you self-professed as a nerd back then, like to the point where actors who were going to be in this film were nervous about it because they didn't want it on their resume that they played a nerd, and so you know the kind of people who were like pushed in lockers and and picked on by jocks and stuff like that. I think prior to this film did not necessarily feel like they had a community.
Speaker 2:But it's sort of like defanged the insult.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and you know some of it is also like the. Robert Carradine and Anthony Edwards are both very handsome men. Now they play up the like. The way that Robert Carradine like holds his chin and his teeth like makes him look kind of chinless and they have the like the thick glasses and like they're wearing unflattering clothes and things like that. But they are both attractive men and there are some characters. Curtis Armstrong is also an attractive man. He's a slob in this but he's a handsome young man. So this is also like in some ways, giving people like oh okay, it's not a bad thing to be a nerd, I can be like them, so defanging it that way. But then giving this like blueprint of like you know to, to be a nerd, you can get all the things that are promised to the jocks acclaim and pride and beautiful women.
Speaker 1:So, instead of it being like, hey, we're all people here, let's just be people together, it's like no, no, no, you can beat the jocks at their own game.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which happens to be completely dehumanizing women. Which happens to be completely dehumanizing women.
Speaker 1:Yes, and to the point where I was horrified to see this. Ebert does not have a written review, but there's a video review from Siskel and Ebert. Siskel did the main review. He talks about this movie as being gentle and funny, which I'm like, and Ebert actually says he agrees with him. And he says I really liked it when the nerd got the blonde why.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, cause he was self-identifying with the nerd and he doesn't get the girl.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's. I have sometimes wondered about, like so, hattie McDaniel, who played the nanny in Gone with the Wind and was the first black woman to win an.
Speaker 2:Oscar Academy Award.
Speaker 1:I have wondered, like, what she thought about that part, what she thought about having to play that part. You know things like that. In the same way that, like I was wondering about the actress who played Betty.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, I was thinking more like the actor played Takashi, who was playing up the Japanese stereotypes and pronouncing all L's as an R and that's yeah, that's oh, oh, and then, but then. So those are. Those are ones where I think it's it's kind of obvious and clear, like how you're dehumanizing yourself for a part. I wonder what the actress who played Betty feels particularly. I think she's still alive, you know it's been four years. She can look back on it. How does she feel when it was so embedded in the culture, the deconvising of women, that you are nothing but a trophy, you know, like you don't get to have your own opinions, and like an orgasm is all it takes for you to fall in love with someone Like it. Just there's that line from tori amos, so you can make me come. That doesn't make you jesus. Yeah, like how is the violation not more important than whatever pleasure he might have given you? Yeah, while you thought he was someone that you know and trust and love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like this. That storyline is one of the key building blocks of the sense that, like, dubious consent is somehow justified, like to reach an end. That this feels like a key building block. That that's that is the message we were given. She liked it. It's okay that the consent was dubious or, you know, non-existent in this play I mean it was. I mean she did consent to sex, but she thought that it was for someone else.
Speaker 1:So it's, it's like it's um misled consent yeah, so rape by fraud or rape by deception? Yeah, exactly described, yeah, yeah I'm focused on also the idea like revenge of the nerds. So there are things that it is understandable that they're getting revenge, so like the destruction of their home, like burning the word nerds on their front porch.
Speaker 2:Even being kicked out of their freshman dorm in the first place?
Speaker 1:Yes, All of that are things. That is understandable, why they would want revenge, but using coerced sex both between Betty and Louis and the images in the pie pans. What does that have to do with what has been done to them?
Speaker 2:Nothing, except unless we accept the fact that the pi, delta pi's are in fact the property of the Alpha Betas. Yeah, that's the only way in which we can accept that as somehow part of the so-called revenge Mm-hmm, as if they're property. Yeah, because otherwise they have just violated a third party.
Speaker 1:Unless you think the other option is that the the nerds are owed sex or attention from the pie Delta pies, so like cause, the only thing that pie Delta pies did to them is mislead them.
Speaker 2:When they said they would come to the party and then didn't they said they would come to the party.
Speaker 1:And there's a point where Bettyty tells lewis and gilbert hey, I think you'd be great if you wanted to rush alpha beta. I'll let them know that you're coming, and so they go and they're humiliated. So she had a part in that.
Speaker 2:But it was one person and it was still not her doing the humiliation, even if it were like being humiliated by being rejected socially and being coerced into sex.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, I mean it's it's, it's bad Gross.
Speaker 2:Gross.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's bad, gross, gross, yeah, so which is another, another way that the filmmakers? I think we're trying to draw a parallel yeah but instead of it being like hazing's terrible right instead of it, it's, you know, like beat them at their own game yeah, yeah, you're smarter, you can do it better yeah, yeah, yeah, do the do the same stuff, but more efficiently even the like letting go at the tug of war because they knew they couldn't win.
Speaker 1:Yeah, be strategic in your hazing yeah and, and you're fighting um, and it's all like I. I come back to the um, the speech that john goodman. Like you know, your father stood over your crib and wanted you to be men, like the toxic masculinity of that. But and he's, he is like a father figure to these kids. The only other father we see is Lewis's dad, played by. I can't remember his name. He was the guy from That'll Do Pig, james Cromwell, that's his name.
Speaker 2:And Babe.
Speaker 1:Babe, thank you who is, like, as I understand it, a mensch of a person, and he's the one who came up with the laugh, and I don't know how they made him and Robert Carradine look so much alike. Maybe he was cast because they have the same nose, I don't know. So there is a conversation between Lewis's father and Lewis right when he drops him off and like it starts with I'm so proud of you, son, and like, like you see some exchanges between them as they're driving, like they're calculating their ETA based on how fast they're going and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and there's a warmth there, like this is a father who truly loves his son. But the first thing they do is they ogle a woman's ass together as he goes to talk to her, or talk to to lewis, as he's dropping them off, like and the the camera like zeroes in, like that is, that is a faceless, nameless woman, she's just an ass.
Speaker 1:And basically the dad's like, oh, you're gonna get laid. So much I'm, I'm envious, I wish I were with you, I were you and it's, it's the same. Like. I feel like this film invites us to reject the clear, toxic masculinity of coach harris. We're, like you're not real men, because you're letting weaklings beat you, but it's not examining the toxic masculinity of the nerds and the nerds father who, instead of it being like you know, I'm proud of you, you're, you're accomplishing things, you, you know this becoming who you'll be, all the things. Yeah, it's like you're going to get laid so many times, yeah, and there's like it's more than that, like there's there is a warmth between Lewis and his dad and he only has like screen time for like five minutes.
Speaker 1:There's a warmth there that is not there with with coach Harris and his athletes, but it's still about like son, all this pussy is yours right, right right and and it's not even like you do someone whose father told him like before he went to college like son, don't make any big decisions with a stiff dick yeah, my former boyfriend's dad told him never make a decision with a stiff dick um that's actually decent advice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not the same. It's not the same.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's what I'm saying is like lewis's dad isn't giving advice. He isn't like saying like hey, I know what's going to be going on while you're here, and like be safe, be true to yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, try to find love in addition to sex. Like there's many, many pieces of advice for the young man that even involve sex that aren't just sort of so if I can kind of draw out what the distinction is, I think the movie makers are willing and interested in examining and rejecting the toxic masculinity that would pit men against each other in competition around what they determine are arbitrary things. So in this movie specifically, the sort of like being a weakling or being a nerd, whatever that might mean, and they, by extension, sounds like they wanted it to also involve race. They are not willing or maybe able to examine the toxic masculinity that would pit men against women, with women as prizes and just simply walking vaginas to be conquered, and that's that's the distinction. Like both are toxic masculinity.
Speaker 2:Yes, our movie makers did not recognize the latter and it sounds as though like to be. I was going to say fair and I'm going to take that word out to put them in context, to put the movie makers into their historical context. Siskel and Ebert weren't willing to do that either, or able, right, and those are two educated, like well-read men educated like well-read men and ebert.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it was later in his life only or if he his entire life, but he was someone who I regarded as thoughtful about social issues um so you know so to to put them in context, like cisco and ebert didn't see it either.
Speaker 2:They called it gentle and funny, right? Ebert like, liked that moment of ebert, like that moment of the, the rape by deception, the rape by fraud. He liked that bit and so did so. So so many other people, gen x and older, who were watching this movie and somehow feeling like a piece of their internalized oppression, a piece of their own self-loathing was being defanged and they were being shown that, like, despite this thing that you hate about yourself or don't like or that has been criticized by others, whatever version of that is true, for that, that watcher, despite that, you can get the girl, you can win at this game that you've been losing at.
Speaker 2:See, here's Gilbert and whatever they call it, lewis I was going to say Tully which is like here's Gilbert and Lewis who are winning at the game that you've been losing your whole life and being told that you could never win. But they're like you and they're winning. And that is why it became beloved and we were, just as a culture, either intentionally or unintentionally ignoring the fact that women are objects to be one period.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the only woman who is not either sexualized or sexually humiliated in the film, so like there's the big woman who's supposed to kiss Gilbert. There's a montage when they're going to try to find an apartment where Wormser, the 12-year-old, rings on a doorbell and there is a large middle-aged woman wearing a Mary Widow type bustier and she's like oh, this room's right next to me and we'll get to hang out together and clearly sexual. But in how dare you become sexually unattractive? And so of course that means you turn to pedophilia, like I don't even know. So the only woman who is not treated that way is Gilbert's mother, and I think it's interesting.
Speaker 1:Gilbert is talking to his mom at the very beginning of the film. He's nervous about leaving. He's nervous about leaving her. She's a widow, so his dad died at some point in the past. And you know he's like are you going to be okay? And she's like I was fine when you went to computer camp. He's like well, that was only two weeks. And she's like no, no, no, I'll be fine. Lewis comes in and he like kisses her on each cheek in a way that is very like just respectful, but not like that. I use that word and it sounds like Eddie Haskell, Like it really does seem like oh, this is my best friend's mom and like she's she's been great. I love her, she loves me, I'm her second son, and like I think it's illuminating that the one woman that is neither sexualized nor sexually humiliated, the mom, is a good mom yeah, and a celibate mom because her, her partner's dead.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah well it's it's so gross.
Speaker 1:It's so gross I was expecting to maybe like have a giggle or two, because I love dirty humor, like I really do so, like, and the only thing that made me laugh was the Ward Cleaver line. Yeah, at the very end, the marching band. I kind of remembered the marching band part, I did not remember Ward Cleaver. And so the people talking about how hilarious this movie is, I'm like how.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, we've been talking for a while now. Is there anything that we haven't mentioned that you wanted to make sure that you lifted up?
Speaker 1:before I try and kind of reflect back some of the highlights, I do want to just talk about how I think there's a straight line between the cultural influence of this film Like I don't want to say this film, but the cultural influence of this film and the rise of incel culture, because, as you put it, like you've been losing at this game, but you can win at this game, and what bothers me is that even the filmmakers, years later, are not able to say we should not have done that, it was wrong.
Speaker 1:Betty deserved better than that. They're still not able to do that, which shows me how far we still have to go. It clear that nobody comes off good in this film. Like. It's as if, like, if you're good at sports, you can't be a good, sensitive person, and if you're, if you're good at computers or whatever, all that does is make you better than the people who are good at sports. You better than the people who are good at sports and all throughout, women owe you. They owe you to be pretty, they owe you to be sexually attractive.
Speaker 2:They, they owe you their attention, their time and sex and yeah, and the, because you're better. You're better at it than those jocks, and that's what they want well, it's the like you know.
Speaker 1:I'm putting a quarter in the sex machine and no sex is falling out. That's, this is where nice guy stuff comes from, like you know like they just don't want. They don't want a nice guy like I. Let her cry on my shoulder over and, over and over again and she never had sex with me, and it's because she's a human being who has her own wants and needs, and it's not just a matter of like tricking her. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Even as a as a small child, I remember being like. I did not remember much of the movie, but I remembered the panty raid and I remembered the rape by deception. Those really stuck with me because I remember being like. I know they're supposed to be the good guys, but I don't like this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, all right, I'm going to see if I can reflect back to you. It's actually not that much, because it's all the same thing, I think. I think ultimately this movie it didn't even give with one hand and take with the other. Like it, it gave with one finger and then took with two hands.
Speaker 1:So, like I, think I've also gotten like a bucket involved. Yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So what it gave was uh kind of validation and defanging is the word that I've been using of the, the word nerd and that sort of constellation of socially inept, socially ostracized, maybe smarter than the average bear, weaker physically than the average bear and and marginalized as a result. It gave that identity, kind of something to be proud of, but did it but did it so because what it, what it?
Speaker 2:the way that it did that was, instead of saying like this game is bullshit and it's based on false premises of hierarchies of human beings, instead of sort of saying like I reject the hierarchy, this movie said, hey, we can be on top of that damn hierarchy, just watch us. And by doing so, it traded in all kinds of oppression. There was sexism, and not just sexism, there was straight up misogyny. I mean, I feel like misogyny is the through line of this movie. Oh, definitely. There's homophobia, there's transphobia, there's fat phobia, there's anti-intellectualism, there's there's racism. They're pretty horrible Anti. It's a pretty horrible japanese stereotypes. There's pretty yucky native american stereotypes that come in in the talent show.
Speaker 2:We see rape by fraud. We see non-consensual sexual sexualization and sexual humiliation, with images taken without consent of these women who are not human beings in the eyes of the filmmakers or the audience. We're not expected to think of these women as human beings, and the the point you just made is the reason that we're talking about it. On deep thoughts, we often look back at things that we loved to see what was hiding behind the things that we loved. In this case, neither you nor I loved this movie and in fact it made you very uncomfortable, but a lot of people did, and I think the point you just made is the reason it belongs here in our project of deep thoughts, because it's the thing.
Speaker 2:It's a thing that Siskel and Ebert said was just gentle fun, and yet, by your analysis, it contributed to and was a pillar of a culture, a cultural kind of zeitgeist that has allowed the rise of so-called in cell culture, involuntary celibate culture, where men believe that they are owed sex because of I don't know good behavior, which ain't so good Because because, if it's a game that they can be on top of, they're playing the game the way they're supposed to and they're not winning and they're not getting the prize that they expected.
Speaker 2:They're not getting the prize. Yeah, precisely, precisely. Hierarchy and put the nerds on top contributed to that idea that if these so-called involuntary celibates play the game appropriately, they should get their prize at the end. And they're not, because that ain't how the world works.
Speaker 1:And, surprise, surprise, women are actually human beings, not prizes, and so this movie actually contributed to that which is exceedingly dangerous, like deadly. It is deadly for women, and I even remember, immediately afterwards, someone being like well, like, most of his victims were men, so how could he be a misogynist? I'm like, oh my God, like that's the thing, like it's.
Speaker 2:The misogyny is what had him go on a rampage Like the bullets don't stop when they hit someone Right who he's not actually mad at Well, and he still might be mad too, because if you believe that it's a game and you're playing according to the rules and not getting the prize and you see someone who you don't think should be getting the prize either, if you are not, like yeah, yes, exactly, it's still based on misogyny.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think that's a really significant through line that you're drawing, that I wanted to make sure that I repeated and reiterated. I think another thing that you kind of pointed to a little bit tangentially, but I'll just quickly lift it up, is the ways in which, like our, our cultural understanding of what a nerd is, this movie helped to sort of change that Like people talk about themselves as such and such nerd all the time now, like I have a mug that says museum nerd, you know, and like we welcomed Lynette Davis who self-identifies as a black nerd, a blurred, and like it's like people talk about themselves like I'm a car nerd, I'm a this nerd, I'm. Like the word has become a thing to just mean fan, big fan. And that was not the case in 84 when this movie came out.
Speaker 2:And this movie was a part of and I believe potentially at the beginning of that kind of change in the way we talk about that word, which is sort of interesting in that like one I would in a vacuum, expect that as we start to adopt that word more, embrace that word as a, as a good thing, we would do it as a celebration of intellectualism, and yet this movie still feels anti-intellectual in some ways, in the way that you've described it. So there's an interesting tension there that I'm I don't, I don't have anywhere to go with it, I just I'm just naming it. So, anyway, we've been talking for a long, long time. What did I, what did I miss that you want to make sure that you lift up in the final reflections and then we should say goodbye?
Speaker 1:The the one is. I do think that the way the film treats Lamar was the black gay character. I don't want to say progressive, but it's unusual in 1984. Yeah, he is out of the closet, he is perfectly comfortable with who he is. He is perfectly comfortable talking about it to people and having dates in front of his friends and others and one of the things and I'll have to see if I can find it, but I was doing a little bit of research and I think I was on Reddit, someone was talking about that his cousin, who later came out as gay, loved Lamar's character and watched the movie over and over again for him and I think that's interesting, in part because Larry B Scott had some career setbacks because of playing this character and the actor who actually I think the extra who played his date did not know that that was the part he was playing and he actually was I don't know an electrician on the set or something like that.
Speaker 1:He's like, hey, I'd love to be in the movie. They're like, oh, yeah, yeah, we need people for this party scene and he was upset to be playing a gay man, which I know that's what the world was like 40 years ago. But I have trouble wrapping my head around it. And so, as I said, he was my favorite character. He doesn't get a whole heck of a lot of screen time, but he is consistently kind and savvy and intelligent. And by savvy I mean like he and because he is a double marginalized individual, like he understands the consequences of various actions and yet is still willing to be unashamedly himself. And there's a movie in there. There's a film in there that actually could have been lovely, especially since, with the exception of Booger saying like, yeah, but your date's a guy, nobody has a problem with Lamar.
Speaker 2:Among the nerds, jefferson Among the nerds. Scowled, but did it ultimately allow it to go forward? It wasn't a deal breaker.
Speaker 1:And there is that when Lamar takes the spiritual record off and puts the 80s music back on, there's like this kind of like look between them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, recognition between the two black men.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Makes sense, makes sense.
Speaker 1:And that's like I don't want to say I don't, I don't want to give credit to these filmmakers because what they did was awful. This film is awful, but there is that bright spot of Lamar. There is that tiny little bright spot and I'm I'm glad that there's at least one person out there who found, who saw themselves represented on screen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. Well, thank you for lifting that up. I'm glad we got that in. So, um, next time I'm going to bring you my deep thoughts about the Ren and Stimpy Show, yes, which, by the way, is streaming on Paramount+. They have a bunch of the old Nickelodeon stuff on Paramount+, so I've watched several episodes so far and I'm going to keep watching before we meet. It's long, it's long. You know, that's the very first thing. In the very first episode is a commercial for Log Yep.
Speaker 1:Oh Yep, oh Yep. Do they have log for girls?
Speaker 2:too. That's in like the fourth or fifth episode, but yeah, anyway, I will share all of my deep thoughts about the Ren and Sophie show. Oh, I can't wait Next time.
Speaker 1:That's going to be a good palate cleanser after Revenge of the Nerves. See you then.
Speaker 2:See you then. Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?