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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about Dead Poets Society
O Captain! My Captain!
Join us as Tracie brings her deep thoughts to the 1989 film Dead Poets Society on today’s episode. Though this beloved film was supposed to be a defense of the humanities (and remember, both Guy Girls were English majors at private liberal arts colleges), this rewatch made it clear the film thinks poetry is simply cute and that Robin Williams’s John Keating agitated for independent thought–as long as it aligned with his own. While the movie does not inspire like it once did, bringing a queer lens to the analysis offers some important lessons on becoming one’s full self.
Is this a podcast I see before me? Earbuds toward my hand? Come, let me listen to thee!
CW: Suicide and mentions of sexual harassment/stalking.
Mentioned in this episode:
Dead Poets Society Is a Terrible Defense of the Humanities by Kevin Dettmar (Atlantic)
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? Today, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1989 film Dead Poets Society with my sister, emily Guy-Burken, and with you, let's dive in. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come over, think with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. All right, em, I know you saw this movie because we've talked about it, like it was one of the ones that we probably saw together 89. I was 13. But tell me, what do you remember? What's in your head about Dead Poets Society?
Speaker 2:So there's a couple things. I remember watching it with Dad and you at Dad's house. I remember and this might be one of the reasons why it's not like it's not one of my movies I remember there's a point where robin williams's character gets is trying to explain like poetry to his students and he gets one of the kids to talk about the face of a man with a beard and how like his face looks like a blanket. That's not long enough and you'll always be cold and it's like this very lovely metaphor. And I remember being like very literal 10, 11 year old going like that's not poetry, it doesn't rhyme, and like you and dad going like that's not poetry, it doesn't rhyme, and like you and dad going like yeah, no, it's, it doesn't have to rhyme, and me feeling kind of like well, I should have known that. So that's that's like very early memory of it.
Speaker 2:The funny parts of Robin Williams's performance I kind of remember. I know the Macbeth speech because he does it as John Wayne, so I can go quite long on that speech and Macbeth is my favorite. Well, until I read Othello, macbeth was always my favorite tragedy. It's still up there. So that's something that always comes to mind. You know, instead of oh Captain, my captain, I go. Is this a dagger? I see before me just a comic actor. I think I like I had wanted to see Good Morning Vietnam, which was the first time where it was like really clear that he had some really incredible dramatic acting chops, but if I recall, I feel like our parents didn't want me to see it, because, yeah, that's gonna disturb you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's my recollection.
Speaker 2:And I still haven't seen it. But you know, just combining that manic comedic energy with the pathos I remember being very impressed by, I can tell you kind of. Basically the story beats. I know that there are two boys who when we watched it with dad, he was like something bad's gonna happen to either the one who's lovesick or the one who wants to be in the play. And he was right, and then that's kind of all I really remember about it.
Speaker 2:But it definitely felt like an early entry in my understanding that you know, movies about rich white men being sad and stories about, like posh, white boys being sad is what's considered high art in literature. So I have kind of more of a cynical view of this film than I think that you did, and some of that has to do with there is an episode of Friends where Monica meets someone who has stolen her identity. She befriends this person without them knowing and the identity thief says like her life changed when she saw that movie because she hated it and everybody loved it, and so that always stuck with me because it was just like, yeah, everybody really did love that movie and and like I'm not saying I didn't enjoy it, but it just didn't speak to me exactly, so. So those are my, my recollections. So tell me, why are we talking about dead poet society today, today?
Speaker 1:So in my memory it was an important coming of age story like, and I had this strong recollection of, like you know, the creative kid being stifled unto death, you know, and how like, meaningful and sad, and I don't know it like. In my memory it just it had this this sort of gravitational pull about being about like coming of age and and the consequences of not being allowed to be who you are and how that was important, although, honestly, I hadn't seen it in 25 years, maybe before watching it, you know, 25 years, maybe before watching it, you know, to prepare for today. So, yeah, well, we'll get to it. But this is one of those ones, unfortunately, that I think maybe you can't go home again At least I can't, although there are I in the research. I'm finding some some sort of queer allegories in it that redeem it a bit for me. But yeah, so that's why it was in my memory. It makes sense that we watch it at dad's house.
Speaker 1:So much of our movie like adolescent movie education, like I associate with dad. This is one that I definitely do. Robin Williams has been like such an important, like actor in my you know, constellation in the furniture in my mind of, and again associated with dad. Um, even even when williams died and like there was a certain I saw in dad like a resonance and like understanding of um, the death by suicide, of the fact that the that there was such a deep sadness underneath of the hilarity that like seemed to kind of, I don't know, make sense in dad's mind, which totally could be made projecting. But that that's, that was my perception and association. I mean Dad was not, did not have that like hyperactive hilarity that Williams did. But anyway, I do have some associations with him.
Speaker 1:So anyway, that's kind of why it was important. So today I want to talk about it. The movie presents itself as a defense of the humanities. I mean, that's really sort of what I think it's meant to be, and looking back on it now, in 2024, it doesn't do a very good job at that. Right, there's an article in the Atlantic that I will I will link to in the show notes that spells out why that's the case in more detail and with greater analysis than I would be able to, than I will be able to in our episode, but I can dig into it a bit and so so there's, there's that piece of it.
Speaker 1:There's also, like, in my memory, williams's, john Keating was a really good teacher who, like, was stymied by the system. I'm not sure that's true. Looking at it now as an adult, I'm just not sure that that's actually true. I don't think it is sort of storytelling shortcuts. I think there is a fundamental meta problem with the way that we are shown Keating teaching. So, but we can, we can get into that.
Speaker 1:There's also, like I mean, as you say, it's a story about a bunch of posh, rich white boys, so there aren't very many female characters in it by nature of the context, right, it's an all male boarding school, so to a certain extent I can forgive that until I can't. You know, like there are a couple of female characters, even with names, but they're somewhere between a cardboard cutout and a sexy lamp. They're really, they're just not. They're just not not. And the way in which some of the characters, including ones, I mean the core group of friends, like we were meant to really care about, and the way that the loves, the love struck one, the lovesick one that dad said was one of the two that something bad was going to happen to, um, the way he behaves toward his, the object of his affection, is gross, I mean just yucky, which I totally did not remember, not even a little, until this rewatch.
Speaker 1:So there's some stuff there that's like, even at the core, the things that like, as someone who cares deeply about the humanities, it doesn't quite get there. So so those are some things I want to talk about. I do want to talk about also, though, if we treat this as a, as queer metaphor, how that changes the way I look about it, look at it and think about it. So we'll get to that as well. But first let me give you a quick synopsis of what happens in the plot, as quick as I can make it, which, granted, I'm not that great at, but I'll do my best.
Speaker 2:We should start doing like the Oscar music to like play you off.
Speaker 1:So the movie opens on this it's set in 1959, and we know for sure that it's 1959. It's a New. England prep school. So we've got very rich white boys and we see this sort of like Hogwarts style boarding school, like with the rose and the tradition and the different flags and houses, whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess. Okay, I didn't. If you say so, you're the alum. So the the um harry potter was getting big just as I graduated. But since then people have made a big deal of how our dining hall is the Hogwarts dining hall and how, like Kenyon could be American Hogwarts.
Speaker 1:Okay, All right. So we're introduced to this place and it's the very beginning of term. We meet a group of boys. There's a new kid, todd Anderson. His older brother went through and has graduated so he has big shoes to fill. We're told that explicitly. And then his roommate, neil. So Neil and several of the other boys have been there for years. Todd is a new kid there.
Speaker 1:So we meet these guys and they already have study groups and they're already like it's very intense academically and we step through. We see them in their classrooms. They're carrying around all these huge textbooks. It's very intense academically and we step through. We see them in their classrooms. They're carrying around all these huge textbooks. It's chemistry and trigonometry and Latin and it's all like super classical education and like very difficult. We see the boys stepping through like the precision of trigonometry and then in their Latin class they're like just repeating out loud the declensions of different verbs, like with the, the prof sort of saying the words through and the boys repeating him and then the prof like they get all the way through the whole conjugation and then he says once again and they have to do it again.
Speaker 1:It's so it's like yeah, yeah, it's like mind numbing and and like heavy, and, and we see him, what you know you going to have to read through the research and write your reactions to it and that's due tomorrow. So so we get the sense that this is academically like intense, huge pressure. We also meet Neil's dad, who is played by the dad from that seventies show. Oh that, by the way, folks, that is distracting watching this movie. All of these characters, all of these actors, not all many of these actors went on to big things.
Speaker 1:So Todd Anderson, the new kid, is Ethan Hawke, a very, very young Ethan Hawke. And then Neil is Robert Sean Leonard, who is in House. He's like one of the other doctors in.
Speaker 2:House. He was Claudio in Much Ado About Nothing as well, I remember that production Well that's how you know him. That's how I know him.
Speaker 1:Then I kept getting distracted by Knox Overstreet. The character is the character's name played by Josh Charles, who's in I don't, I'm not even sure what. I've seen him in that like he's. He's best known for Dan Rydell on Sports Night, which is maybe what I what I was thinking of him. But he's been in a number of other TV shows.
Speaker 1:So I found, like this childhood, like childish I mean child version of him like a little distracting, like so, all of these actors who you sort of know from other places, like it's a little distracting. Now, anyway, we saw an exchange between Neil and his dad, who is the dad from that 70 show, where the dad's like I talked to the headmaster and you're doing too many things, you got to drop the annual, and Neil's like but I'm the assistant editor, this is their yearbook. He's like I don't care. Dad says I don't care, you gotta you know, and and in, and in fact dad makes him step out in the hallway and he gets reprimanded for having disputing, disputed for the kid having disputed the dad in public when he said but dad, I'm the assistant editor, I don't want to quit. So these boys have a lot of pressure on them. This we learned that, like, more than 50% of the graduates go on to Ivy League. Like this is like the pipeline for doctors and lawyers and engineers and business leaders. Like it's prep school, okay. Like it's prep school, okay.
Speaker 1:So enter John Keating Robin Williams into the English class. After we saw all that like precision and trigonometry and the repeating out loud, the declensions of the Latin verb, he comes in whistling and like whistles as he walks through the room and out the back door and then it's like, are you coming back door? And then it's like, are you coming? And has the boys follow him into the hallway where they're looking at old photos of alum from the school, of which Mr Keating Robin Williams is one. And we get this Carpite DM speech right.
Speaker 1:All of these men, they're a lot like you. Or these boys, they were a lot like you. You know. They had hopes and dreams and they had successes and failures and they played rugby and they did whatever. And now they're all. They're all worm food, lads, we're all worm food. So it's like you know, seize the day that this is the entry into Mr Keating's class. So, moving forward, he has these very unconventional teaching methods. He has these very unconventional teaching methods. He tells them that. You know this. There's an essay in the front of their poetry book about that. It's called understanding poetry. That tries to have you like lot poetry on an axis of artistry and importance, to figure out if it's good. And he says this is crap, which it is obviously. I'll come back to that. He has them actually like.
Speaker 1:Rip out the pages of the introduction I remember the the page ripping thing because I remember that shocking me as a child yeah, and it shocks all the boys and that's part of the point. And we see other. We see other like classroom or not, in the classroom moments where he's teaching them about convention and conformity and sort of thinking for yourself, that scene that you remember with the bearded man. The bearded man was Walt Whitman.
Speaker 2:I thought it was OK. Yeah, I thought that it was someone famous.
Speaker 1:And it wasn't the beard, that was the blanket, it was truth. It was a metaphor for truth that you try to make it cover you and it just never covers your whole self. It always only covers your face. And and that scene, like John Keating, mr Keating coaxes that out of the Ethan Hawke character with his hand over Ethan Hawke's eyes, like spinning around in a circle, trying to get him to like just focus on the words and not on the way that he's being perceived. He's very self-conscious.
Speaker 1:The boys discover the annual from when Mr Keating was at Welton school where it says a list of you know like. Next to his picture it's a list of all the things he was involved in, including like Thigh man and man and then dead poet society. And they're like what's dead poet society? And he conspiratorially like whispers to them that it was this like. I guess it's meant to be like skull and bones, uh, like that kind of academic secret society. But they would get together in the I quote Indian cave near campus and read poetry to each other, all the biggies like. So he names Byron and Tennyson and Whitman. And they didn't just read poetry, it dripped from their lips like honey or something, something to that effect.
Speaker 1:So the boys decide to reconvene the, the dead poet society. So they find this cave and they go and they they're reading poetry and they bring nudie pictures and they're you know. And then there's a scene where they're um, they're like chanting words from a poem that the fellow who the, the writer who wrote the atlantic article to which I will link, like knew the poem. I didn't, um, don't, but it doesn't read well to have a bunch of these, you know, rich white boys, like it's something about congo and the golden track, and they're like banging a drum and chanting and it it doesn't, I don't know, doesn't feel great, especially in the like indian cave yeah, well, in the congo.
Speaker 2:I'm just just with what I studied, what I focused on in my English degree. It's sounding like White Man's Burden by Rudyard.
Speaker 1:Kipling. No, it wasn't. It definitely is not Kipling. It's definitely not Kipling, no, no just that.
Speaker 2:I think of that, along with Heart of Darkness and lord jim, and there's just a constellation of uh of authors yeah, it may have been from that constellation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so okay, so that's happening. So we get sort of like this string of these things. Like the other traditional teachers are kind of looking down on what um keating is doing, but they're kind of giving him space, but they're not sure about him then neil is this his first year teaching there this is his first year teaching there.
Speaker 1:Okay, we were introduced to him in the very first scene as the um previous english teacher retired and this is his replacement. So the previous English teacher retired and this is his replacement. So Neil comes to his room, he and Todd are roommates and he has a flyer that a local theater company is doing Midsummer Night's Dream and Neil is super excited to try out. He's always wanted to try acting and he's going to do this and Todd is worried for him. Todd is really worried for him and sort of is advising him to like, maybe talk to his dad and like are you sure this is a good idea? And you know to the point that Neil's like Jesus, todd, whose side are you on? Neil tries out, gets the part super excited. Neil tries out, gets the part super excited, writes a letter of permission like, types it from his father. So he forges this letter of permission from his father that he can do this play, so excited about it.
Speaker 1:And meanwhile the guy who the actor distracted me because he goes on to a successful career, knox, he's the lovesick one. He has met a girl in town who is a cheerleader at the local high school and is dating a quarterback and he's decided that she's the one he's going to marry this girl. So he rides his bike into town to see her and she's with one he's going to marry this girl. So, like, he rides his bike into town to see her and she's with the quarterback, but he's, you know, he's set on this girl. He calls her in part of his like you know, seizing the day, and she says oh, I was thinking about you were having a party, would you come? So he goes to the party and a couple of the meatheads um, think he's somebody else's younger brother, not somebody we know and they get him, they give him alcohol and he starts to get drunk and he's like really uncomfortable and he's gonna leave. But then he realizes he sat down on the couch and the girl is lying there sleeping on the couch in the midst of this party. Oh shit, uh-huh. It's not as bad as I was afraid that it would be, as I'm watching, like I looked at it, I was like oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. And even my spouse was sitting watching with me, with me, and they were like consent, consent, consent. So it's not as bad as it could be. He strokes her hair, he kisses her forehead uh, so still not, you know, great, but not nearly as bad as I was afraid it was going to be in rewatch.
Speaker 1:And the? Um, the meathead boyfriend sees what he's doing and like freaks out and like wails on him and like punches him. The girl wakes up and she's like stop, you're hurting him, you're hurting him anyway. So he gets a bloody nose and goes home. So, um, meanwhile, their friend Charles, who's kind of the most snarky, the most, um, counter-cultural, tells them that he snuck an article into the school paper. Uh, an article into the school paper that says that they should accept girls to Welton, and it's signed by the Dead Poets Society. So they have this whole assembly where the very stern headmaster is like there was an inappropriate article and whoever is responsible should come forward because we will find you and you might as well make it easier on yourself.
Speaker 1:And then, all of a sudden, there's the sound of a phone ringing and Charles who we know is the one who did it because he's the final proofing on the school paper he holds this old, old timey phone. He's like hello, what? God Sir, mr Nolan, it's God. He says you should admit girls. So the next scene we see charles is, uh, in the headmaster's office and is paddled and has to count the strikes, the blows, and is told he needs to say who's responsible. And you know like name names. So, mr Keating, robin Williams, comes and finds him and is like that was stupid. And Charles is like but I thought you would like it, you said we should suck the marrow out of life. And Keating says there's a difference between sucking the marrow out of life and choking on the bone. You have to, you know, know when to be nonconformist and when not to be.
Speaker 2:How were the kids to know that? Well, I mean like that's.
Speaker 1:OK, yeah, ok, exactly.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, okay, exactly Okay. I'm not. I'm not saying that kids aren't capable of like taking a well-intentioned and well-taught lesson and taking the wrong thing from it, but yeah, no, exactly Exactly.
Speaker 1:That's a significant critique of Mr Keating's work with these kids. Okay, so it's the day before the play. Neil's super excited Midsummer Night's Dream is tomorrow. And he comes into his room and his dad is there waiting for him. And his dad is like you're quitting this play. You made a liar out of me because so and so, said that her daughter was in a play with my son. And I said that's not right. My son is not in a play. And you, you made a liar out of me and you were quitting this play. And Neil's like but it's tomorrow, and he's like I don't care. And Neil's like I have straight A's, I don't care, you're quitting this play.
Speaker 1:So, and the next thing we see, neil goes to see Mr Keating in his room's apartments. I don't know. And it's like I don't know what to do because I love it. It's, I love acting. This is so special and so important and I feel alive or whatever. I don't remember the exact details and Keating says you got to tell your dad, you got to tell him what you just told me and you know, figure out a way. And you know, just stay in your lane. More, more or less, he says stay in your lane, um, until you graduate, and then you can do whatever you want, cause you'll be a grownup. So Neil is really. He says I feel trapped. He sheds a tear, he doesn't think it's going to work, but Keating's like no, that's what you got to talk to your dad. So the next thing we see, neil says I talked to him. He said he doesn't like it. He doesn't like it at all, but I think he's gonna let me finish it. He can't come to see the performance because he's going to be in Chicago. But I think he's gonna let me stay with it and like something doesn't seem quite right. But that's all we get.
Speaker 1:So next day, all the boys are getting ready to go to the performance. The girl shows up. Her name is Chris. The local girl shows up and she's like Knox, you got to stop this. He's going to kill you. And Knox is like no, I love you and I don't care if he kills me because I love you. And she's like I don't care about you at all. And he says I don't believe you because you're here.
Speaker 1:Anyway, all the fellas go drive to the play with Mr Keating in his car. They get there late. We see some of the performance. Neil as puck is amazing. Midway through the performance, dad comes in and neil sees him because he's sort of waiting for his cue and sees dad come in and you see this sort of like oh shit, moment finishes the performance. It's amazing standing ovation. His friends are absolutely like just besotted with his performance and Shakespeare, which they didn't expect. And they they're heading out and like people are congratulating him and Neil's with his dad and Neil's like I can't, guys, I can't headed straight for the car. Mr Keating like runs after him and it's like Neil, it was incredible, you were so good, I was so moved.
Speaker 1:And Neil's dad says you stay away from my son. So we realized that what Neil said about the conversation with dad actually was a lie. He never spoke to dad. We go back to Neil's house and dad's like this is ridiculous. Uh, you're wasting our money, you're wasting your education. Tomorrow I'm taking you out of Welton and I'm sending you to such and such military academy and you will go to med school and you'll give up this acting thing. You'll put this acting thing out of your mind. And Neil's like but you haven't even asked me what I want. And dad's like what do you want more of this acting nonsense? And you sort of see Neil deflate and Neil's like but you don't even, you haven't even asked me what I want. And dad's like what do you want more of this acting nonsense? And you sort of see Neil like deflate and he's like no, nothing.
Speaker 1:Dad gets up and leaves, mom is there and she is just a mouse, but she's sort of you see her sort of like kind of move toward Neil and like kneel down where he sit in seat, where he seated, and he says I was really good, I was really good. And she says get some sleep now. So they go to bed. Mom and dad go to bed. Mom kind of whimpers and dad says it's going to be okay. I'm not sure what that meant. I think it just meant that she didn't like the fact that they were arguing, I hope.
Speaker 1:And then neil, he puts on a, the crown that was part of his costume as puck. He's shirtless. He opens the windows it's winter, like it's weird. He's just kind of in a weird place. And then you see him go into his dad's study. You actually see his hands. He goes into his dad's study. You actually see his hands. He goes into his dad's study. He has a key, he opens a locked drawer and pulls out a wrapped firearm and the next thing you see dad sits up in bed and says what was that sound? And then mom, mom and dad are like searching around the house to figure out what's going on and they find Neil has taken his life with a firearm, has, um, taken his life with a firearm.
Speaker 1:The school decides it's keating's fault. One of the boys in the dead poet society like thinks on him, that's the word that they use. Charles, who was sort of the most snarky and, um, non-conformist, like punches him. Charles gets expelled. The other boys are sort of kind of forced to sign a, an affidavit type thing that says that keating, it was his fault, like that he like encouraged neil to do things that he shouldn't have and whatever. So he's fired. He's leaving. The headmaster takes over the English class. So the final scene we see the headmaster taking over the English class and then Keating comes in to get some of his personal effects. There's like a tiny office at the back of the classroom. So he's there and the boys, the guy. The headmaster asked them to open to the introduction and read from it and none of them can, because they ripped those pages out and there's like a little haha but, not.
Speaker 1:And then, as Keating is leaving, todd, who is the very sort of self-conscious boy who gave the poem that didn't rhyme about Walt Whitman, tries to say like they made me do it, I know, it wasn't your fault, you have to believe me and you know Keating's like. I do believe you. But then he stands up on his desk and this is actually a reference from earlier that I didn't get to but he stands up on his desk, he turns and faces Keating and says, oh Captain, my Captain. And then a number of the other boys end up doing the same thing, while the headmaster is like frustrated, like get down, get down from here, get down. Uh. And the whole movie closes with um robin williams saying thank you, boys, thank you, and that's the end of the movie.
Speaker 2:I very vividly remember the scene that you're describing, with Robert Sean Leonard wearing the puck crown, shirtless, and taking his life using his father's gun, and it's still. Even just hearing you describe it, I'm feeling something. I'm feeling something and to me that felt like the most true part of the film because it was describing something that happens in every generation, where parents put they want their children to be extensions of themselves instead of letting them be themselves, and that's when you give a young person no hope. That is a predictable potential result. It can be a death sentence. It can be, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So I actually think I that is a very true moment in like the sort of like meta, true, like resonant, true. The other one is actually a few moments later, in terms of cinematography, not chronology of the film, when the boys, the friends, are, they're out, they're taking a walk in the snow and Ethan Hawk, who was his roommate, todd um, is reacting to Neil's death like he throws up and he, he doesn't want to accept, accept it. And I, when I was 13, I was so deeply moved by Neil Steph I could remember bawling as a 48 year old, knowing it was coming. I wasn't moved in that way, in the same way by Neil Steph, but I was deeply moved by Todd's kind of response to that and it also made me reflect backward on Neil and Todd's relationship. Because from the beginning Todd is very insecure and not sure he's going to be accepted and Neil does from moment one. Neil does from moment one right, like he makes room for him in the group that is already established when they decide to establish the dead poet society.
Speaker 1:Todd says I, I go without me because he said we take turns reading and I don't want to. And Neil says, well, you don't have to if you don't want to. And Todd's like that's not how it works. And Neil says, well, if they say it's okay, you don't want to. And Todd's like that's not how it works. And Neil says, well, if they say it's okay, if we all say it's okay, then it's okay and Neil does what he has to to make sure that it's okay so that Todd can come along. And then there's a moment later it's Todd's birthday and his parents have sent him a present, and it's the same desk set that he already has.
Speaker 1:I remember that moment last year and they joke about it and like Neil says, looks kind of aerodynamic, let's see if it flies. And so they throw it and it's like it's just a fun like bonding moment that like makes light of like a really kind of shitty situation for Todd and seeing Todd's grief for me, as of you are now, but all those moments of their friendship into stark relief. Like the other boys have known Neil a lot longer but Todd is a lot closer to him. They were roommates and and that's actually where I think some of the queer metaphor metaphor this is not an explicitly queer movie.
Speaker 1:We are not given explicit clues that these two boys are romantically involved. But it does not feel like a far stretch to imagine that kind of relationship. And I'm not talking about sex, but just like that kind of depth of intimacy between these two that they were the most authentically themselves when they were together, each of them kind of even in their fear for one another, because Todd is very fearful for Neil when Neil says he's going to pursue the acting. So there's something in that dynamic that I saw other commentators point to. I'm not sure I would have gotten there on my own.
Speaker 2:I just I just want to name that I do recall as a kid seeing Neil's acting as being queer coded, even though I would not have ever been able to express that, I would not have been able to articulate it. But if Neil had done all of that so he could play rugby or something, it seemed like his father would not have been so pissed off, agreed yeah, and and and.
Speaker 1:In my memory actually, there was something queer coming. There's something coming out about the the um.
Speaker 2:Well, and some of it has to do with, I think, the fact that it's it's puck from a midsummer night's dream, which, again, like Shakespeare's not like explicitly queer the way that a play written now or even in 1989 would be.
Speaker 2:But Midsummer Night's Dream is a very queer coded play because it's all about what you do when you're not yourself, and so there's the permission to fall in love with someone you're not supposed to fall in love with, and Puck being the one who causes all the mischief. I certainly didn't know that as a kid and I didn't remember exactly what play it was, although as soon as you said Midsummer Night's Dream, I was like, oh, of course that must be it, because I remember the Crown and I think if you pressed I probably would have come up with the fact that it was Shakespeare, in which case I might have gotten there. But I don't think that it's unreasonable for people to read that into this Particularly. You know it's set 40 years earlier, it's a movie from nearly 40 years ago, it's 35 years ago, and being able to tell like queer stories in 1959, being able to tell queer stories in 1989.
Speaker 1:I mean, the things are just very different, right other moments that sort of have an aura of kind of queer coding are charles nuwanda.
Speaker 1:Charles, the character that I talked about, sort of the most snarky, in some ways the leader, although in some ways neil is the leader at one point.
Speaker 1:Um, he brings two girls to the cave to a meeting, gloria and Tina, and he recites poetry to them to impress them. But one of the things he also does is one of them pulls out a lipstick and starting to like reapply lipstick and he takes it from her hand and he puts like marks on his cheeks with this red lipstick and he tells the boys they call him Charles, charles, that's his name, or Charlie. And he says, no, it's Nawanda now and that's. And they like they use that name throughout. So he's using lipstick to mark his face, not on his lips, but to mark his face, and he goes with this name Nawanda. And though he is trying to impress these girls, there's also something like outside of the traditional masculinity about this performance and in fact he sticks to that name. It comes up again and again throughout the rest of the movie, like it comes up again and again throughout the rest of the movie.
Speaker 2:Well, and I'm wondering if he would not have done that if it was just him and the girls Right, like if he were just trying to impress just them. He would not have done that, right.
Speaker 1:Right, no-transcript poetry, one which I think was maybe a dig at sort of some of the way that, like the like critical theory, was happening at the time.
Speaker 2:but at the time 1989 or at the time 1959?
Speaker 1:59 okay but the thing that really bothers me in retrospect, which I don't think I would have been able to articulate quite this way if I hadn't read that atlantic article but I was, I was heading, I just didn't have the words for it. He says rip it out, it's excrement. You are going to think for yourselves? He doesn't say like let's think about this. Can you really put a number on the artistry of poetry? Like there's no critical engagement with it. It's all about feeling. And don't get me wrong, feeling is a very important piece of poetry and literature in general, and humanities additionally. But that ain't all. It is right like we're working, like humanities.
Speaker 1:Scholars are professionals yeah, they don't just vibe with their uh, exactly, object matters kind of where keating, like over and over again, seemed to be just pushing them, was just to like vibe with it, like have the feelings, like there there was no piece. And he says to one of the other scholars, to one of the other teachers, I thought the point of an education was to teach kids to think for themselves. But it's not. He's not, that's not what he's doing. He's teaching them to think like him yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so, like, if he had and and again, like shortcuts, cause you're telling a two hour story like could we have really gotten into the full lecture, that was like all right, let's think about this boys Might have been kind of boring, Like it was more interesting to have him rip it out.
Speaker 1:Sure, okay, sure, but if this is the thing we're gonna like, that a whole generation of us was given as, like, the defense of the humanities, we've done the humanities a disservice. I mean, it's all about feelings. And then, and it's, and it's amateurish, like in the way that, like he says at one point in the classroom, why, why do we? Why do we have language? And one of the boys is like to communicate and he says wrong to woo women, and like it's a very funny line and it's delivered beautifully, because it was Robin Williams and he had amazing chops and amazing timing. And if I overthink it a bit, because, hey, that's what we do, and if I overthink it a bit because, hey, that's what we do, ew, yeah, right, like this classroom full of rich white boys who are going to go on to set the standards for everything All culture, government, society, corporations, everything.
Speaker 1:They have all male teachers. The poets they're reading are all white and male. Now, the one we talk about the most, and we see his picture, is Whitman, who was gay. So I guess that's nice, something, something, but like so what is a woman's? Poetry. I mean, does that mean the only women poets are lesbians, because they're willing women?
Speaker 2:I mean it just like I that mean that you know if you're asexual, you have nothing to say to add to the conversation.
Speaker 1:It just humanity is at its best, helps us understand ourselves and the world and others. It allows us a window into the other's experience.
Speaker 2:It allows us to encounter the other. Well, and that's part of why I said about the moment where Robert Sean Leonard's character dies by his own hand is true, because that is the part of the film. Like I had no memory of Nwanda, I have no memory of, like, most of this, but I can vividly recall that scene because it allows me to understand the viewpoint of something that would never occur to me Right, viewpoint of something that would never occur to me right and and so. And that's what, that's what story, that's what poetry is supposed to do, right? And so it's kind of ironic that the film does that with that character but doesn't with its explicit it with its meta with this meta conversation about the humanity yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:One thing that a couple of commentators have pointed out is that that scene that I named, where keating says I thought the point of education was to teach them to think for themselves. The response from the other teacher is that at these boys age not on your life just get them ready for college and the rest will sort itself out. And a number of commentators that I've read were like, actually that's kind of true. Like because we see other examples of these boys pushing against the boundaries of the rigid sort of structure that they've been given. Like they're building a radio so they can get music which they're not supposed to have. They're they smoke in, you know, they're smoking in in spaces, they're. They have these study groups and sort of cheating agreements. One is led to assume like they already actually are pushing against the conformity without Keating's influence. And one of the characters says if it like the one who finked on him that we're meant to like really hate. He says if it weren't for Keating, neil would be snuggled up in his bed right now preparing for finals.
Speaker 1:And that's unfair and also true mm-hmm so, like I, I don't think that we should treat young people as less than full human beings, and structure is actually not a bad thing, especially as we are figuring out who we are, not structure that would keep us from being our full's that's not what I mean, but when our brains are not fullyators.
Speaker 1:A couple of commentators who pointed to that specific moment at these boys age not on your life made it really clear to me that like I have a lot more sympathy for that other teacher now than I did when I was 13. So that was a sort of interesting light bulb for me.
Speaker 2:What's striking me is, you know, he's telling these kids seize the day, but without, without a sense of what those the potential consequences could be, and and that's that's basically what that other teacher is saying. And that's what the the Fink is saying about Keating and Neil, because he gives him the advice talk to your dad. He gives him the advice follow your joy. And that is not bad advice, except that that is a child who just needed to survive to adulthood, yeah. And you can't paint with a broad brush and say like, oh, yeah, seize the day, do what's going to make you happiest. In the same way, there are some children who cannot wear gender affirming clothing because they just need to survive to adulthood, Because it's not safe. Because it's not safe, yeah, and like it would be bad advice to tell them be who you are without taking into account what their safety, their safety is yeah um, and and neil said that neil says that to keating he says I feel trapped and he cries.
Speaker 1:I mean not like not weeps, but he. He said it's here and keating says you're not.
Speaker 2:And you know, seeing things that had young people die by suicide hits different now than it did when I was a young person. Yeah, in that, like when I read Romeo and Juliet for the first time and I was closer to their ages, I could kind of comprehend, even though I hated what they did and recognized like you know, if you wait a few days things will be better. But I could kind of comprehend the grandness of what they thought they were in the midst of this. And again, I haven't seen it since then. But this makes me feel like he was going to be trapped in medical school or the military school and medical school, but he still only had to wait.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Keating does say that I mean he does say you just got to, you know, get through school, and then you can do what you want, because you'll be an adult.
Speaker 3:I mean he does say that and that's to be fair to the character.
Speaker 1:Oh no, you'll be an adult, I mean he does say that.
Speaker 2:To be fair to the character. Oh no, no, no, no. I get that, but that's part of why you have to be careful with kids, because their brains aren't fully formed. Neil, in that moment, thought he did not have choices. Yeah, yeah yeah, and that's what's so tragic about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's what's so tragic about it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I am curious about you. Know, we talked a little bit about Keating as a bad teacher and you're saying, like it's kind of this glossy, you know, like vibe with the poetry and feel it, what is it? And he's trying to teach them how to think for themselves. What does that mean to him, or does that? Is that clear?
Speaker 1:It's not, and that's, I think, why I say that it feels that, that that, looking back on it, it doesn't like. I mean, compared to like, having to repeat the and memorize the declensions of the latin verb like, yeah, it feels super fresh. So, in terms of like the, just the story beats like as a viewer. But in terms of like, what does that actually mean?
Speaker 1:I mean, he, he talks about how easy it is to fall into conformity and he teaches them that with like a walking exercise where they end up walking in step, like out in the courtyard, and so it seems to just mean like, don't do what everybody else is doing. But it doesn't actually hang together. So the first time he stands on his desk, keating stands up on his desk and he says why am I up here? Somebody says to feel taller. He says no, that's not why. It's to see some things in a different perspective. And then he has all of the boys like come and step up onto his desk to see things from a different perspective. I remember that. And then they just start jumping off of his perspective and then he says don't be just lemmings, as they're like jumping off one, one and two at a time. And so, like I, it seems to mean don't think like them. Them being the old guard at Welton. It is not clear what it means to think for oneself.
Speaker 2:According to Keating, it is not clear what it means to think for oneself, according to Keating, yeah, I'm also, in part because I double majored in French. Like I'm not saying that repeating the declensions isn't boring as shit, but that's actually good pedagogy for learning language. So, like that's the other thing, like I'm not. There is no one right way to teach and there are some things that we no longer consider good, like rote memorization, that actually have their place. Yeah, and you know that Latin teacher could be excellent. You know, like there's a reason why we like memorize times tables is because we need to.
Speaker 1:Just we need the autumn, the automaticity of it, yeah, yeah and so like.
Speaker 2:Similarly, like reading a poem and being able to recognize the rhyme scheme and the meter is just the start, I mean obviously. But that gives you a sense of understanding why it is satisfying to read what it is that the author is doing. Because if you have this strict rhyme scheme and meter, meter, and then you diverge from it, what is the author saying at that point? Whereas if you're just vibing with the words, absolutely feel things. But why are you feeling those things? What has the poet done to make you feel those things?
Speaker 1:things well. So ultimately, like I, one of the ways that I saw it discussed was that, like keating is just encouraging the kids to appreciate poetry, just fine. There's a place for appreciating poetry, but appreciating and like understanding and like learning from are not the same Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of like a non-English majors idea of what it is to.
Speaker 1:Well, precisely. So, if, if the sort of Titans of industry are making room for us at the table, us humanitarian humanists, humanists, humanities people scholars, Kenyon and Oberlin grads.
Speaker 1:If they're making room for us at the table it's because they think it's cute. Right, and Keating says specifically we don't read poetry because it's cute, we read it to woo women, whatever it is that he says. But we actually I think that what we're given into a poet society is cute. And so if and that's the version of the humanities, that cuteness that is being made room for at the table, cuteness that is being made room for at the table and that's not, I mean that's why people are saying like you can't get a job, because we're totally devaluing what it is that the humanities has to offer the human intellectual endeavor. It is ultimately anti-intellectual to treat the humanities as something that is cute, that's just vibing and not actually a professional field of inquiry that has something to offer to humanity in the way that we understand ourselves, each other and our place in the world and the and the cosmos so when I was, when I was in college, there was a guy lived down the hall from me who said English is bullshit.
Speaker 2:As in studying English At Kenyon College, I was just like you're at the wrong school and he could not understand why it offended me so much to hear him say that he's like well, it's all made up. I'm like we're humans, everything we do is made up. He's like well, he was, I think, a chem major. I'm like this isn't made up. I'm like we're humans, everything we do is made up. He's like well, I'm, I'm, he was, I think, a chem major. Like this isn't made up. I'm like perhaps not the things that you're studying. Like there there are things that we can study and understand better, but the way that we describe them, like the, the periodic table of elements, that's made up Like we, we, we are, we are putting things in order based on things that make sense to us. Yeah, that doesn't make it any less bullshit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I have gotten that my entire life.
Speaker 1:No, no, of course, yeah, that's I mean. Yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:And even this film, which purportedly is a defense of the humanities, is still doing that, still doing it, yeah Well, and even Neil wanting to be an actor. There is a sense of it being like, well, that's a pie in the sky kind of dream, and only because he happens to be excellent, you know like it would still be worthwhile if you were. You know, an okay bottom, so to speak. I mean the character from Midsummer Night's Dream, um, so to speak.
Speaker 2:I mean the character from midsummer night's dream, um, I was trying to think of a character from the, from the film, or from the the oberon, oberon so like even if he were a like, you know, just just okay, but it brought him joy, yeah, like it would still be tragic, but they and like this I'll give them because it's storytelling, but at the same time it does take away from the idea that there is worth. There's only worth if you're excellent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah At humanities. Well, I think that the fact that he was excellent at it, that he sort of came as part of what lends to the queer, metaphor the queer.
Speaker 2:I would love to talk a little bit about that. What have you been reading about that allegory?
Speaker 1:Well, the fact that I mean, as we as kids kind of intuited, you know, there was this thing that was forbidden, that he was his fullest self while doing and it was his desire to do so, that that was completely denied, like being sort of forced back into the closet, that was untenable and caused his death, that's one, and the relationship between Neil and Todd is another.
Speaker 2:That the two. I think I said this already that the two of them kind of became the fullest selves in each other's company.
Speaker 1:There was something unique and special about their relationship and each of them sort of found a community because the Dead Poets Society, the other boys were in the community, they were accepted for who they were.
Speaker 1:But then there were still these outside pressures for trying to force them to stay, you know, to conform and stay sort of closeted if you will, that's I mean, I'm imposing that, but that's the allegory, like encouraging them to stay closeted. So, and and even the sort of one adult as Keating, like the one adult who is sort of the safe space with whom they can be their full selves and who encourages and even draws out their full selves in the case of Todd and the sweaty-toothed- man who is Walt Whitman, and the poem that he kind of pulls from him, which is an expression of who he fully is, that this safe, caring adult is able to help them find Well and even the blanket being about truth, I mean, and it covers your face.
Speaker 1:No matter how you pull and stretch it, it can't cover all of you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am more familiar with stories of like boarding schools in the UK than I am, just because they're less common here in the United States. But in all male environments I believe there probably was quite a bit of Experimentation. Yes, and I know that that is a part of the understanding of the culture of boarding schools in the UK which I'm basing entirely on pop culture, but pop culture brings it up, so I assume there's a reason.
Speaker 2:If that's there, it is so subtext that I didn't I don't see it and that's. I'm fine. I'm bringing that up because I'm thinking the fact that it is completely absent makes the subtext text, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Maybe yeah, um, so anyway, we've been talking for a long time, uh, across several platforms, so I do want to say one final thing, which I mentioned briefly, but just the women in this movie there are four, so there's Neil's mom, there's Chris, the love interest, and then there's Gloria and Tina, who show up at one of the Dead Poets Society meetings, at one of the dead poet society meetings. So, and and really like, these four women are like mom's a cardboard cutout. Chris is a sexy lamp slash prize and Gloria and Tina are sexy cardboard cutouts and that's it.
Speaker 1:That's all there is, and there's just Because of the context. It makes sense that there aren't more female characters. It's an all-boys school. But even the ones we get are not even even well, chris is a plot device and, you know, gloria and tina are just like is there furniture?
Speaker 2:why um, it's nox right, he falls in love with Chris. Yeah, why does he love her? What does he love about her? She's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Okay, the most beautiful girl he's ever seen.
Speaker 2:For those of you who are listening, I just rolled my eyes so hard you might've been able to hear it. Yeah, that is something that I think I really want us to hold movies to a higher standard, to hold a pop culture to a higher standard, like absolutely, it makes sense this in this environment there are not going to be many female characters, but you can actually write the ones that are there yeah, and and not only that, like the way, way that Knox pursues her is gross, it's really gross.
Speaker 2:Well, he ignores her stated preferences.
Speaker 1:She's an idea and it's one of those things, you know, and the guys are kind of egging him on and it's one of those like she down, try again. Oh no, yeah, move the fuck on. You know it, it's, it's. It's so clearly the precursor to the kind of incel ideology that demonizes women for not wanting to have sex with every man who thinks that they're attractive. It really is gross. It really is gross and and there's nothing that keating says as the like mentor to counter that at all. So I did want to like name those things before I wrap us up. So dead poet society, 1989. Set in 1959. This was one of the early examples of robin will, robin Williams sort of showing us his dramatic chops, and he got an Oscar nomination as a result of it and the film won some big awards. It is a beloved.
Speaker 1:This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion episode and Williams is very charismatic in it I mean, I forget how handsome he is because I just think of him as so goofy, but he's, he actually is a very handsome man. Yeah, yeah, and you see that in this film some of the things that don't hold up are sort of the attitudes toward women, where we just where we just were like Knox's. She's the most beautiful girl I've ever seen and she's going to be mine.
Speaker 2:Is he going to collect all five? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and also on part of that, like the, the way that Keating, as this like mentor, amazing teacher, talks about poetry, I mean it's sort of tongue in cheek to. You know, it's an all boys environment and so he can do this. He says, like the purpose of it is to woo women with a wink, like literally he wings and and and it's cute and it's fun and and the cuteness is part of the problem. Right, like in my, as I'm sort of thinking about this and reading a lot of commentators, this movie, which purports to be a defense of the humanities, really gives us humanities as something cute. It's. It's like, you know, a feeling, it's a vibe. It's not actually a scholarly pursuit. It doesn't have anything to teach us about our place in the world.
Speaker 1:The humanities at its best can help us to encounter the other, but in dead poet society it allows john keating to make these boys see things the way he sees things.
Speaker 1:So the the queer coding in this film. Though, when I look at this as an allegory of queerness from Neil and Todd and even Charles, who changes his name to Nawanda, I do see some very interesting kind of explorations and teasing about what it is to be forced to be closeted, what it is to find a group of people with whom one can be fully oneself, to find a way an expression in Neil's case it's the acting that makes one kind of live into one's full potential. And then to have that be threatened or taken and the crushing, the crushing blow that having that taken away can be, to the point of making death by suicide feel like the right answer. So I think there are things that we can still learn from dead poet society, about adolescence and about sort of finding our way and finding our fullness, and there are other things that I think we need to not let in to the furniture of our minds.
Speaker 2:It's making me like kind of recognize just how often we create stories about the upper echelon and like I do think that there is value in telling poor little rich boy and poor little rich girl stories. I don't think that that's something that we should never do. Specifically, neil's story has stuck with me. I have never forgotten that actor and part of the reason.
Speaker 1:I think it is significant that part of the reason that the dad was so, so rigid was because they did not have the kind of money that many of the classmates had, like they had to really scrimp and save in order for neil to go toton. That I did not remember at all.
Speaker 2:They make that clear.
Speaker 1:Okay, I mean. Neil says it outright to Mr Keating.
Speaker 2:That's one of the things that I think is interesting. Like, this is such a beloved story and I'm sure in the late 80s we were not yet really reckoning with the amount of, like, rich white dude stories there are. There's, there is just over and over and over again. They're the, the jokes, the memes about how, like you know, if you know stuff happens, then it's genre, but if it's about a depressed middle-aged white guy who's having sex with a student, then it's literature, and obviously that's not what this is about. But this is kind of like the young adult version of it. I just kind of want to make a note of the fact that we do this over and over again. We tell these stories and we're starting to open up and like something that has to do with the fact that the rich folks are the ones who have the ability to write stories. Right, right, right, but it's worth noting. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so next time.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm kind of not looking forward to this, but next time I am going to be bringing you my deep thoughts about Revenge of the Nerds. That's been on the list for a while. I actually pushed it down the road last time it came up. But considering the fact that we were allowed to watch this movie as children like not teenagers children and this was considered like fun family entertainment, I think it really is worth another look, and so I'm very nervous about it because I haven't seen it in 25, 30 years, if that, and I know there's some stuff that I thought was fucked up when I was an eight year old. Yeah, yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be difficult.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I think this one's not going to be one where we realize we can't go home again, but where we realized that dump was just a stinky. It's just a stinky and rewatch as it was when, when we were kids. Yeah, all right. Well, I'll look forward to hearing your deep thoughts next time. Sounds good. Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember, pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?