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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about the Spice Girls
I really really really wanna zig-a-zig-AH!
On this week’s episode of Deep Thoughts, Tracie and Emily delve into the global phenomenon of the Spice Girls. Tracie explains how she saw the inevitability of Spicy world domination while living in London in 1997 and decided to embrace the manufactured pop group’s grrl power, despite feeling leery of the mixed messages these sexualized young women were sending. Though the group became a feminism gateway for a number of young girls (and inspired Adele!) and emphasized the importance of friendship and solidarity, the sisters do have to grapple with the reality of Scary and Baby Spice’s horrifying nicknames and the overwhelming body scrutiny the women were subjected to.
Here’s the story from A to Z–you gotta throw on your headphones and listen carefully!
Mentioned in this episode
Ms. Mojo: Top 20 Celebs Who Shot Down Homophobic Interview Questions
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/arts/music/spice-girls-girl-power.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/13/spice-girls-feminism-viva-forever
https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/spice-world-1998
Content warning: Mentions of eating disorders and body shaming
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? Today, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 90s pop sensation, the Spice Girls, including their movie Spice World, with my sister, emily Guy-Burken, and with you. Let's dive in. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. All right, em the Spice Girls, tell me what you know or remember about the Spice Girls.
Speaker 2:So I remember I loved the song Wannabe, even though I never knew what zig-a-zig-a meant. I remember the movie, bits of it, it. I remember bits of the movie, like I remember meatloaf having a cameo and saying you know I'd do anything for those girls, but I won't do that it was about unclogging toilets.
Speaker 2:That's what he wouldn't do for them and for those listeners who are not old enough to remember, meatloaf had a like huge hit. It was I'd do anything for love, but I won't do that. Yeah, I remember I really liked Emma, who was, I think, baby Spice. Yes, I liked her style the best of the five, because they each had their own style of dress and I was very much into like the baby doll dresses and like I didn't do like pigtails exactly, but the kind of like clips and stuff that she would wear in her hair, and so for me I was like baby doll dresses and Doc Martin boots, and so I don't remember if she wore Well, we were all wearing really big shoes in the 90s.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, they weren't Doc Martens, but she was wearing big shoes, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I mean to be honest, if left alone, with like all the clothes in the world that's what I'd wear I would see like friends of our grandmother who were doing like like had plucked all their eyebrows and like drew, drew them back in and being like I don't understand why are they still doing this weird makeup thing from like 40 years ago? And I now understand because I still love the way, like where you outline your lip with a dark lip liner. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I get it now. You learn a makeup technique, you like it and you keep it for life yeah so those are the that I like.
Speaker 2:I remember the style quite a bit. I remember how big they were. I remember there was like, because there's always some sort of like pushback in every direction. There was like is this the death of feminism? I remember like, are, are these girls showing the wrong thing because they're sexual? Are they like? Everyone had an opinion? And the one other thing is I know what the post spice girls life is for two. So there's Posh, mel B. Posh is Victoria, victoria, that's right.
Speaker 1:She's married to. She's married to.
Speaker 2:Beckham, and they have unutterably gorgeous children. Because how could they not? Yeah, four of them, oh, my goodness, they're such gorgeous people. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, and then I know, is it Mel C? Sporty is Mel C, mel C. Okay. So Mel B was Scary Spice, yes, and I know that she had a relationship with Eddie Murphy. And then I've kind of lost track of Jerry, who was Ginger Spice, and Emma, who was Baby Spice, and Sporty, who was Mel C, yes. But I look back on them fondly and kind of wonder if they have any lasting impact, considering how huge they were at the time. But if I said something to my kids about it, they would have no idea who I was talking about. Yeah, so that's. That's about what I remember about the Spice Girls. So tell me, why are we talking Spice Girls today?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Wannabe was released in summer of 96. And then the album Spice was released in um summer of 96 and then the album spice was released in november of 96. I went to london on like a semester abroad thing, in january 97.
Speaker 1:So I was living in london as a. I turned 21. While I was there I came to visit you, yeah, For your 21st birthday. So I was living in London for almost six months, uh, the first six months of 1997. And like you could not avoid the Spice Girls in the UK I mean I don't think in the world, but especially in the UK in 97, like you just couldn't. They were everywhere. And my you know, leftist, feminist, 20, 21 year old self had some major questions about these women who were not that much older than I was, women who were not that much older than I was. I mean, I actually, yeah, they were, they were about my age and it was like if I was going to fight them I was going to lose and my head was going to explode. So I decided to just embrace them, and I embraced them whole heartedly, I just was like all right, let's do this you know,
Speaker 1:And I just really got into the Spice Girls mania at the time. And so, as we're doing this project and sort of looking back at things that shaped us, I decided that you know, it's been 30 years, like it's time. Let's, let's look back at at the at the Spice Girls and see, with a little bit of hindsight, you know, which of my impulses was right the one that was like oh no, or the one was like, hey, this is so much fun. And I think, well, spoiler alert, both were right, but let's, I want to get into it a little bit. So I want to talk about the ways in which the phenomenon of the Spice Girls, both the concept and then actually the execution, sort of gave with one hand and took with the other in terms of true movement toward female empowerment, toward women taking control of their own destinies, toward representation, all of those things. That's really the heart of what I want to talk about, and I'll talk a little bit more about why I think some of those the, the give and take, and I and I do want to talk a bit about spice world, the movie, cause it was so much fun.
Speaker 1:So so, for those of you who don't remember, the spice girls were a manufactured pop group who hit the scene hard in 97, 96, rather in 96. They just they dropped and they were an instant, overnight success. Well, that's what we saw. There actually was quite a bit of work that went into becoming that overnight success, this manufactured pop group. It was like the brainchild of this father-son duo who the boy band was extremely popular in britain in the mid 90s.
Speaker 1:And this, this young guy he's like 22 at the time and he's like we should do this with women and he convinced his dad that, who was um like a entertainment industry accountant, I guess, um looking for a new project. So he convinced his dad to do this and they found a funder to help them do this. They held auditions. They auditioned somewhere around 2000 women to try and fill these five slots. So they got these five girls and originally actually Emma Bunting who became Baby. So they got these five girls and originally actually Emma Bunting who became baby. She was not a part of the original cast five. There was another woman, michelle, who dropped out. It was a little. The idea was to create a girl group like the boy bands of the early 90s, like NSYNC. There were some British ones that were the specific model.
Speaker 1:So, that I think they didn't make the jump across the pond. They didn't cross the pond but like Backstreet Boys, nsc kind of a vibe.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But with all girls, mm, hmm, mm, hmm. And the mistake that the father son duo made. Their financial backer said I don't want to give these girls contracts because I want to keep them on their toes because they know that I can fire them at any time. Well, they put all this money into like dance training and vocal training and choreography and all this work, and then they didn't have contracts and the girls were like um, we're the talent, see you later. And like got themselves a new manager. Wow, good for them. Yeah, that is fantastic, right, right. And the way they so, the way they did it. The original managers wanted to like, do it really slow and like come to the record labels with a fully formed album already. And Jerry Ginger Spice actually like, she was very driven and she was like no, we should do like a showcase, we should like invite the record execs to come see us perform because we're the real deal. So they did that and they had record execs like fighting over them. And that's when they were like oh, we don't need you anymore.
Speaker 2:So Jerry Halliwell was like the oldest by like she was 22 when the others were like 19.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, wow, I was thinking she was like 25 when the others were like 19. Okay, no, she was 22 when the others were like 19. Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Wow, I was thinking she was like 25 when the others were like 19.
Speaker 1:Okay, no, she was 22 when the others were like 19. And she actually she was very driven. So in fact she was not cast in like she, she wasn't on the shortlist. They had the 2000,. They narrowed it down to like a dozen and she wasn't one of the dozen but she was. She was gonna be in this group and so she showed up to the dozen. She was she was gonna be in this group and so she showed up to the dozen, like the the continuing auditions of the smaller group, and she just had so much energy and drive and ambition that she did end up um making the cut.
Speaker 1:So they got this new, this new manager who was annie lennox's manager. He's the one who got them the pepsi spot and I think he also got them the movie. And then they weren't happy with him either. So they they dropped him and jerry did, did it, did the work for a while, although part of the reason they dropped him was because he was so demanding he wasn't letting them rest at all, jerry. Jerry had some struggles with mental health and with eating disorder. More than one of the girls had eating disorders. It was the 90s yeah
Speaker 1:yeah, uh, and jerry had actually like checked herself into a, an impatient place because she was really struggling and and they put her on zoloft and and she was having trouble again and the manager I think it was his name was simon fuller. He like wouldn't give her time off and when she's like I'm, I'm unwell, so that's when they left, so that's when they left him. She was doing the managing, it was gruelinging, and their whole arc, this meteoric arc. They were top of the charts with multiple songs. It all fizzled within like two years, that quickly. Okay, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So Jerry left the band after only about two years. The other four continued to tour, and after only about two years, the other four continued to tour. So, their shtick was that they were archetypes. Right, the five of them were five archetypes and initially-.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay. Yeah, I think you're about to tell us I was going to be like. Was that something that was part of the audition process and all of that?
Speaker 1:No, that actually was the girls of the audition process and all of that. No, that actually was the girls. So in fact, the girls and their later manager, the, the father son duo, who started it, wanted them all to dress alike, which is cause that was kind of the boy band. Oh yeah, yeah, that's what they had been thinking and it it wasn't quite working for them. So the new manager, clean.
Speaker 1:I don't know if this is corroborated, but I read it in a story which from either the New York Times or the Guardian, which I will link to in the show notes, that actually Annie Lennox told Fuller whatever they are, have them lean into that and do over the top whatever the sort of kernel of their personality is, play it up, so they become a persona and a caricature of that. So they were these five archetypes which then got named by a journalist at top of the pops. So their spice names came from a journalist. It did not come from them originally, but they completely embraced it and made it a part of who they were. So there are five names. There was mel c who was actually cast first. She was the one black spice girl who was scary spice, which, um, y'all we will come back to that yeah, so so scary spice.
Speaker 1:Emma Bunting, who was the youngest, who was the one that you identified with in terms of fashion, was baby spice, so she wore these baby doll dresses. She was always sucking on a lollipop she wore her hair in pigtails.
Speaker 1:Um y'all, we're gonna come back to that as well. Then there was posh spice. That was victoria she's now beckham so and she came from a fairly wealthy family and sort of lived into that kind of upper crust affluence stereotype. There was Jerry Hallwell, who was kind of sort of not exactly the leader. She was the one who was the oldest. She actually, the journalist, wanted to name her sexy spice, or so I understand. I was looking for kind of documentation of that. I remember that from the nineties.
Speaker 2:So I don't.
Speaker 1:I'm having a hard time finding where she said that, but I remember that from the nineties that that sexy spice was floated and she was like, come on, everybody's sexy. And so she went with ginger, since she was wearing her hair very red Then. I think it is naturally reddish, but she was very artificially red, so she was ginger spice. And then there was Mel C who was sporty spice, who would wear sort of track pants and running shoes and tank tops and had very buff arms.
Speaker 2:And she always had her hair up in a very tight ponytail, didn't she? Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Usually yes. So these were the five women and they embraced these archetypes which, all except for Sporty, were still very sexualized in terms of what they wore. Which is not to say that Mel C isn't sexy, it's just that her clothing was slightly less sexualized. I mean, it was still sexualized because even like she would wear the tank, so she would wear like a mesh shirt with just a sport bra underneath or just a so or just a bandu sometimes Like so, it wasn't that she wasn't sexualized, it was just slightly slightly less so.
Speaker 1:There was slightly less skin showing often because, like jerry, would wear these like a bathing suit yeah, it was like bustiers, I remember, and like with just a body suit you know, and then tall boots and anyway they had this huge arc of fame with a number one album, like right out the gate. And then they had this movie that they were such a buzz that this movie spice world actually like it's a who's who of movie and music folks who agreed to be in it. So we had, as you remember, meatloaf was in it. Meatloaf had more than just a cameo, he was a finer character. Oh okay, he's in multiple scenes. Meatloaf was in it.
Speaker 1:Elton John is in the first few minutes. That is just a cameo, but he's in the very first few minutes. At one point they make a joke about Elvis Costello, where they talk about how fame can be so fickle, and then he's the bartender and ask them what they want. So elvis costello is in it. It's like a muppets movie. It sounds like it is like a muppets movie with roger moore as this bizarre sort of like not bad guy exactly, but not a good guy either. He's the chief, he's like the record exec or something, who is actually calling the shots about what the girls do, not to them. He has an intermediary who's Richard E Grant, who also was a great actor. Who's their manager, clifford, but Roger Moore. It's over the top. It's so campy. So in the very first scene he's petting a cat like a Bond villain.
Speaker 1:But then, later in the movie he pets a long-eared rabbit and then a piglet that he feeds with a bottle. It's just so weird.
Speaker 2:And just for listeners who don't know, Roger Moore had played James Bond in the 70s Right.
Speaker 1:So also Richard O'Brien, who we talked about, who is the brilliant mind behind Rocky Horror Picture Show, is in it as a bad guy. The brilliant mind behind rocky horror picture show is in it as a bad guy. He's a bad guy, paparazzo paparazzo photographer who works for a bad guy, like tabloid owner, who kind of reads to me like a rupert murdoch kind of a figure, who's like intentionally trying to bring them down I remember there's a point where I think it's like Jerry, someone asks them like oh, do you want to do this?
Speaker 2:And Jerry's like, oh, is the Pope Catholic? And then they have the headline is like they question the Catholicism of the Pope, or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's actually even. Yes, that is the joke. And the thing she's responding to is like something like do you like boys? Or it's something vaguely sexual.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, that she is saying is the pope catholic and then the next scene is the spice girls question the religiosity of the pope and then they like cut to a interview with someone who's like a bishop, saying like I'd like to know what evidence they have for that, I'd really like to know. Stephen Fry is in it. No kidding, there's this like dreamscape where they're imagining being on trial for making bad music, like it's out of style, and Stephen Fry is the judge. He calls them the wrong names, like there are two girls named Mel and he calls them Melvin. And then, after he passes judgment on them, he says now call Fouty and the Blowfish. So it's like full of these stupid topical jokes. George Wendt is trying to pitch a movie to them.
Speaker 1:So it becomes this very circular where the movie that they're pitching is the movie that we're watching.
Speaker 1:So there's this scene where Victoria is driving the bus to try and get them to their Albert Hall live gig. And it's a big London double-decker bus that's painted with the Union Jack and has spice on the roof. And the writer is saying you know, they're rushing to get there and they're approaching london bridge and, oh no, it's raising to let a boat through. And are they crazy enough to try and make the jump? Jump, it's, it's insane. And george went goes, it's expensive. And then it cuts to a very clearly a model of london bridge and this little model Brit like bus with like, like, visible wires, and it makes the jump. And then you cut back to George went going or not.
Speaker 2:George was Norm from.
Speaker 1:Norman Right, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's really very little plot to this movie. It was based on sort of Hard Day's Night, it's just. It's really like an extended music video that has the barest of a plot in order to kind of string it all together. It's just silly and it's delightful, it's so much fun. There's like a flashback with the guy who owns the pub or the diner where they used to hang out, and it's the dad from Fleabag, that actor is the friend Brian, and really the lesson of the movie is that friendship is more important than money.
Speaker 1:It's more important than a live gig. They have a sixth friend who is pregnant and on her own. The baby daddy has left her and she goes into labor the night before their big gig at Royal Albert Hall and they prioritize their friend and they get to perform, they get their cake and eat it too. They get to perform, they get their cake and eat it too. So so that's kind of the the background of this group and the movie that they made and sort of how it hit in my life. Like I'm about the same age as these women and you know I was.
Speaker 1:I was a, I was a junior. I was a junior in college, at Oberlin college, which for those of you who don't know is like a bastion of liberalism, and you know I was. Mom reminded me that at that time in my life. I don't remember what I was reading about, but I was reading about something about the way that, like, western medicine controls women's bodies and I went to mom and I was like, don't you dare take hormone replacement therapy for menopause? And mom was like it's not time yet and also like, excuse me. So I'm just trying to give listeners, like the context of who I was in that moment, which I was, by the way, listeners, I was wrong. I was wrong. I am going to seek out hormone replacement therapy. Just FYI, sorry, ann, I was similarly radicalized when I was wrong. I am going to seek out hormone replacement therapy. Just FYI, sorry, anne.
Speaker 2:I was similarly radicalized when I was reading Ina May Garten when I was pregnant and so I was reading midwives and stuff like that. I was just like Western medicine policing women's bodies, medicalizing natural processes, and then at the same time it was just like, yeah, I'm not having baby at home, yeah, anyway.
Speaker 1:So continue, so that that that was the context of sort of where they got inserted into my brain and sort of what was happening. And so, looking back at them now in 2024, there's, there's some things that stand out to me. Let's come back to the nicknames that this journalist gave them but which they embraced and we all embraced, and scary and baby, scary and baby, and like maybe I'm just old spice.
Speaker 2:But you had that locked and loaded, didn't you?
Speaker 1:We actually made that joke in the nineties. We all tried to give each other spice names and that was. There was a professor that I totally had a crush on but I would hang out with occasionally. I think he knew I had a crush on him and just I mean occasionally. I think he knew I had a crush on him and just I mean I think he just enjoyed the attention. Anyway I called him old spice, but okay. So yeah, so maybe I'm just old spice but like why did we think that was okay to call the one black spice girl scary spice and so here's the thing and I'm like just thinking about this.
Speaker 2:So I hadn't thought about it in 25 years, but I remember it being like okay that she was Scary Spice, because it was about how she had her hair in, like she did her hair very differently in like Bantu knots and things like that. So I was like, oh no, it was about her hair. And then I'm like, how is that not about her being black, right like that, like that? I had that thought. That was like what made it okay back in the 90s and I was just like, oh, it was about her hair just now. And then I'm like, holy, no, that's grim, that's gross, that's awful. How is?
Speaker 1:that, and I mean the way she talked about it in in preparation for today.
Speaker 1:There was they did an e hollywood story about the vice girls and she talked about in this interview about how you know she's kind of in your face and she'll make these big like tongue out, like big facial expressions, and she always was wearing animal print, like she loves animal prints, and so that's the way she was sort of talking about it at the time, that it was about personality. But, like I don't know, I hope that we wouldn't do that today.
Speaker 2:Yes, Well, I'm just like, I'm thinking. So, you and me, if we had been a Spice Girl not that we would have, but if we'd been a Spice Girl not that we would have, but if we'd been a Spice Girl wearing animal prints and big personalities we wouldn't have been Scary Spice. We might have been Bagel Spice, Because that is what you associate with a Jewish woman who wears animal prints and has strong opinions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so like that's opinions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so like that's yeah, yeah, yeah, and then maybe spice. She was the youngest and she also like this was part of the Annie Lennox Simon Fuller advice about like taking like the thing that is true and then making it more so. So if you like pink and fluffy and your mom's your best friend and you're pink and fluffy and your mom's your best friend, you're pink and fluffy, 24 seven and you're always have a lollipop in your hand and you just like play it up. And so she did. And also like how did we not see that that was kind of like Adophilia?
Speaker 2:Like. This was the same time when um, this was about when Britney Spears debuted Right and the. I remember being horrified at the time at how like, because she was under 18 when she debuted and her first song, which is escaping me but she wore that like Catholic school girl uniform with pigtails. But she wore that Catholic school girl uniform with pigtails and there were photo spreads of her with her stuffed animals and it was a big deal about how she's saving her virginity for marriage.
Speaker 1:And so I remember at the time of the Spice Girls is that they give, we're giving and taking at the same time, like about baby, about scary, like the, the racialized sexuality of of mel c or, excuse me, mel b, that a scary spice. And also especially compared to, even like christina aguilera, who's about the same era, at least in spice world, these girls were remarkably asexual, right, they were very sexy, but like there's one scene where they fly to Italy to film this. You know to do this. I don't know if it was supposed to be live or filmed or whatever, but they're doing their song and then these like nearly nude male dancers kind of come out to dance behind them. Nude male dancers kind of come out to dance behind them and they're wearing like um captains, like sea captains, hats and white, tight, small biker shorts and that's it these dudes are wearing and the girls are like what the hell is this? And they stopped singing and they're like uh, no. And their manager, clifford Richard E Grant, goes to like argue with the italian guy whose dancers these are, and like the two dudes are like arguing, like almost coming to fisticuffs.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile we sort of cut and the girls are kind of talking to some of these male dancers and like baby's like well, you see, I've got this dolly and this, and she's like naming all the stuffed animals that are in her bed and she's like so there's just no room for you, mate.
Speaker 2:And like I remember that, I remember that joke now that you say that.
Speaker 1:And then, like one of the others, was like I don't know, like, look at his muscles. It looks like there's like ferrets under there or something. He's like popping his pecs. So, like these hyper masculine, nearly nude male models, male dancers, who in a Christina Aguilera video of the same time there would have been some grinding going on in the Spice Girls movie, it was like ew, no, thank you, put some damn clothes on Right, damn clothes on right. And and the final, like compromise actually, because we do see them compromise. They're dancing in these like they kind of are like like pinkish, purplish suits, like men's suits, but they're not because they're made out of spandex but, then the dancers turn around and they're assless.
Speaker 1:So you know they're like. Tongue is firmly in cheek at all times.
Speaker 2:And there's this like they're actually don't go down the fully hypersexualized route that one would expect, based on the way that their costumers kidded them. So something that strikes me is because what I recall from this, I remember having a sense that Jerry was not necessarily like the leader of the Spice Girls. I didn't think of her like that way, but I thought of her as a businesswoman and I definitely thought of these women as having much more agency within their careers than I did with people like Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera. So what's interesting is thinking about that, because they did definitely dress in a sexualized way, but it really felt like and maybe it was because they leaned into the these like archetypes that they each had, but it felt like it was more their choice than it was for for Spears choice than it was for Spears.
Speaker 2:I actually have a great deal of respect for Britney Spears, which is something that 20 years ago would be hard for me to imagine, saying that just because of the conversation, the national conversation we had about her and the way that she was commoditized by everyone. But with the Spice Girls, the impression that I got was like, yeah, I'm wearing a sexy version of what I actually like to wear, whereas with other pop stars who were sexualized, female pop stars who were sexualized. It felt like, okay, I'm going to the, the, the people who are making decisions, tell me to wear. Yeah, I don't have a choice. Yeah, yeah, you know, and for the, the ones, like you know, the spice girls were like young, but they're all at least over 18 I'm not sure if emma was when they started, but okay, she quick.
Speaker 1:If she wasn't, she quickly was like, yeah, and, and as young as she was 17 yeah, this was.
Speaker 2:This was since there were auditions. It feels like more more choice involved than for um the. I just britney spears and seems like a Michael Jackson type figure For sure.
Speaker 1:Especially since her family was her managers. I think it's really interesting. So I think your assessment of them, of Jerry as the businesswoman I think that's actually accurate and even the sort of not exactly leader, because my understanding is that the original father-son duo who did the auditions, who created this band, were envisioning a classical lead singer and backup kind of a band and the women themselves were like handing out the different solo lines so that no one actually was a clear leader Right Like.
Speaker 1:I think Jerry often was sort of the loudest and I think she was leading as the businesswoman, so in that sense she was leader, but in terms of musically it was not. You know, it was not sort of the lead singer with backup singers.
Speaker 2:It was not the relationship musically, it wasn't Gladys Knight and the Pips, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's an interesting thing. You know that your perception. I think there are things to corroborate. There are reasons that you thought that.
Speaker 2:Well, the getting into it also just the fact that the movie was all about friendship and the importance of friendship, and even though this is a manufactured band, it does it did feel like they were a cohesive group.
Speaker 1:Well, so here's an interesting thing Like part of the way that the original team manufactured them was that once they were cast, he sent the five of them to live together in a three bedroom home. Oh, wow, so, wow, so, yeah. So the relationships didn't happen organically, but that doesn't mean they weren't real. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think they took a lot of flack at the time and and even since, I think all bands, even ones that weren't like the Beatles, got guff for not being authentically. I mean, whatever, we don't need to talk about the Beatles. But you know the Monkees like, can you remember the conversations in our house about how they weren't a real group because they had been cast about the Monkees? So I mean, that's the way that the music business talked about that, like the serious critics you know. And in fact they knew it and they were like there's it fairly early in the movie there's this self self-deprecating line. They finish a rehearsal and the guy who's like I don't know their choreographer or whatever, he says like that was perfect, that was perfect girls, without actually being any good.
Speaker 1:And I feel like that line kind of epitomizes, the Spice Girls and also it's not fair right.
Speaker 2:So what's interesting is it's this catch-22, this no-win situation, because we have this sense of real music has to come about organically, organically. But there are so many fewer opportunities, especially for marginalized creators, to create real organic music just based on so many different things. So there's that aspect of it. But then having something that is created and specifically tailored to like, okay, we want to make hit songs, we want to make pop songs, we want to do this, which is a perfectly valid way of making art. And I'm thinking about when you were talking about how Michael Jackson, with Off the Wall, had won a Grammy and he's like that's's not enough and so he specifically went out to win all the Grammys. Yeah, and like, the idea that that is your end goal is considered somehow illegitimate, and doubly so if it's women. Yeah, because how dare they be in any way?
Speaker 1:ambitious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then when they actually do create something and like their message like this is the other aspect that I was thinking about in just the difference between the Spice Girls and other female pop stars at the time is that they knew that they appealed to girls and with the like, the Italian dancers and and all of that and the tongue in cheek stuff, they are in some ways giving with one and taking, taking away with the other, but they are trying to create a message that it really is about friendship and the comfort of your stuffies.
Speaker 2:You don't need to make room for a mate, it doesn't matter how many abs he has, and so they're very intentionally crafting this message of it's about the five of us and our friend who we want to help, who's having a baby by herself, and it's about the solidarity among the five of us who you know. It's like we have to deal with all of these, these hoops that we have to jump through, where people are going to take everything we say out of context as opposed to. You know, other manufactured female pop stars is about like it's the male gaze. Like this is, you know, other manufactured female pop stars is about like it's the male gaze. Like this is. You know, we know that little girls are going to emulate this, but who cares? It's about the male gaze and actually all the better so that we have more young girls who are dressed like this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I think it's interesting that then part of the reason we as a culture and sort of serious music critics felt justified in completely panning this group was because they did appeal to young girls crazy for them, and that's actually something else I want to talk about now that we are 25, 30 years later. Some of the young girls that they influenced, like frigging Adele, was one of them. Like Adele says unironically, I was a huge Spice Girls fan, a huge Spice Girls fan. So now we have this talent that even serious music critics can't help but appreciate. Who says they made me sing into my hairbrush, they made me want to do this right, and so I think that's also like an interesting twist, and it's not even a twist.
Speaker 2:It's an additional layer to the short sightedness of the so-called serious music critics who completely dismissed this air quotes, manufactured this air quotes, inauthentic this perfect but not very good group who was wildly popular. Yeah, I've talked before about how the erasure of marginalized artists influences and I think this is part of it as well, in that, let's say, 50 years from now, 100 years from now, let's say 50 years from now, 100 years from now, adele is like a serious artist. I mean, she's won Grammys, she's amazing, she is amazing, and I imagine that biographers in 50 or 100 years will just skip over, like, oh, that's embarrassing that she says that about the Spice Girls because they weren't serious, and so, and that happens over and over again where if there is something that people were influenced by that was popular but it was like generally appealed to young women, then we're just going to dismiss it, we're just not going to mention it, and so like, and good on Adele for like, no, I love them. They made me want to sing. I'll include a link in the show notes.
Speaker 2:But I read a book called and it was actually I read it because Neil Gaiman said it blew his mind. It was a book called how to Suppress Women's Writing by Joanna Ross, which she originally wrote in the early 80s. Joanna Ross was a she might still be alive, come to think of it a science fiction writer, and so she was talking about the lack of women in science fiction writing. Now, the early 80s version of it was not intersectional and I read an updated version where she was much better able to see the intersection of various marginalizations. Intersection of various marginalizations. She's a white woman. She was very focused on white women, but it blew my mind because it helped me understand why I so often feel like I can't have influences if I want to be a serious writer.
Speaker 2:I can't love Barbara Michaels, who I literally every week I would go to the library and get three more of her books because she wrote like 70. And like I worked through them all because I loved them, but they were women's fiction, so like and you know, romance adjacent, so I couldn't admit to anyone that I really liked them. Yeah, I just I think that that's really fascinating and part of like there are. There are so many axes on which the Spice Girls can be dismissed, like they're women. It was an audition process and not organic. Uh they, they sang pop music and like pop music isn't real music and they didn't write their music.
Speaker 1:They didn't write their own music, they didn't play any instruments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but like Wannabe is a banger, I mean, my God, if that song comes on at the gym, you speed up. That's a damn good song.
Speaker 1:You know. It's interesting too, because I think also the message of like that song, then they lived it too. Like, if you want to, if you want my future, forget my past, right as one of the lyrics. Like so, like you don't know who I am Right and I'm going to be who I am, and if you want to be my lover, you got to get with my friends.
Speaker 1:Yep. And so, in the height of their popularity, one of the tabloids in Britain got a hold of some nudie photos that Jerry did when she was younger and published them. So you know, Spice Girls gets spicy, you know you can imagine the horrible headlines and the other girls just rallied around her and were like yeah, I mean, she did it Okay.
Speaker 2:We all have tits.
Speaker 1:Can we talk about our album now, you know? And so it was sort of this sort of refusal to cancel, refusal to apologize for who they were and even the way that they said it in their own words, like Mel C Sporty Spice would say, the Spice Girls are about just the freedom to be who you are, just be who you actually are, which is not a message that any of us get very often, but especially certain intersectional identities don't get that. So this is really interesting. In addition to the huge popularity among women and girls, spice Girls are wildly popular in the lgbtq community, especially among gay men. Their different archetypes and characters have become drag personas of of different um drag performers.
Speaker 1:Several of the spice girls have been guest judges on rupaul's drag race and that has become a thing that like they've become truly beloved and and kind of iconic for for members of that marginalized community, which I think is also like really, really interesting. And that knee-jerk like oh no, that you know 20 year old tracy had when they first came out to these like hyper-sexualized archetypes I had, I, that 20 year old Tracy didn't see that even a little like maybe, maybe at 20 and 21,.
Speaker 1:I looked at Mel C sporty and was like, hmm, I wonder if she's gay. That was the extent of how I thought about the Spice Girls effect on, or meaning to, folks who might be marginalized because of their sexual orientation, because of their sexuality, and I don't think that that should be downplayed Like I'm glad I see that now, I'm glad that that message was so front and center in this wildly popular pop group. What one writer called a gateway drug for feminism, a gateway drug for coming out of a closet, maybe, you know, like a gateway drug for, like, leaning in a little more to the thing that you really like. But that might make you a little bit of a weirdo.
Speaker 2:You know, it's interesting that I'm thinking about, like part of what I'm reacting to with the Spice Girls and putting them in comparison with other female pop singers of the time is it's not that they had total control or agency of their look or any of that, but there is this sense of especially with Jerry's nude photos being published as an attempt to shame them is like I am unapologetically a sexual being, so why, why are you trying to shame me for that?
Speaker 2:And there I got a sense of that in terms of the way that they each presented themselves as an archetype and you know, obviously, yeah, they leaned into it, but there is this sense of like be who you are and be unapologetic about it. And you know, there in the nineties we got a lot of like women taking control of their sexuality as as like feminism and yes and no Cause, as with so many things in in in feminism. Like we were talking about Jamie Lee Curtis's character in trading places, where she is a savvy businesswoman, she's not shamed for being a prostitute, she has taken control of her sexuality and her finances and her life, but she's still in this machine of late-stage capitalism, Right, and so it's not exactly a triumph, Right?
Speaker 2:And so there's a similar sort of feeling with the Spice Girls, but thinking about what this means for people in marginalized sexuality groups when it is a mainstream group that is showing something like that, and I, just before we got on, I will put YouTube on in the background while I'm doing something that doesn't require my full attention.
Speaker 2:And so there was a Ms Mojo video that I'll share in the show notes.
Speaker 2:That was talking about, I think it was like 20 celebrities who were like shut down homophobic questions or were true allies to LGBT community, and one of them was talking about Judy Garland and how, in the I think the 70s, it might've been the early 80s she was asked about her gay fans in a way where, like they're like it was extremely offensive and she shut that shit right down.
Speaker 2:And the voiceover for Miss Mojo was saying like she recognized that this was a major part of her fandom and that she gave, specifically with Wizard of Oz and Somewhere Over the Rainbow, this idea is there's a place where you can be yourself, and whether or not that was something she was aware of at the time of making Wizard of Oz, she knew by then that this was part of her fandom and that she would not tolerate anyone being nasty to the people who loved her stuff and found meaning in it Right, and so I'm thinking about that as well. You know, I doubt that going into this just as you didn't see it as a 20-year-old that there was this possibility for, like the LGBT community to embrace them.
Speaker 1:They've said it surprised them, yeah, and that they're grateful for it.
Speaker 2:Yes, but the the, the response to that, to like this means something to me. It made me feel like more myself. It made me feel like I could be who I am and be loved. And for the Spice Girls to be like that's wonderful. Yes, I will be a judge on Drew Ball's drag race. I can't wait. There's something just lovely about that and that's part of where because you and I were raised with this idea of there's a right way to create art, you know, like that's not real music you know, like best of albums aren't real music.
Speaker 2:They're not real albums. They're not real albums because we we grew up with that very rigid thinking. I think it's wonderful to look back on something like Spice Girls and recognize how much good can come out of something that is not quote, unquote real art, because it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how it was made, it doesn't matter what the impetus was, it doesn't matter if it was like yeah, you put a poster up in your ninth grade classroom saying looking for a drummer and you've been friends ever since. Or if you answered a casting call. If you make something that's beautiful and is meaningful to people, then you've put good into the world is meaningful to people, then you have put good into the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, that feels like a good place for us to pause and look back and see if I can try and synthesize a little bit of some of what we talked about about the Spice. Girls. So the Spice Girls, you know hitting the scene the way they did in the mid-90s, way they did in the in the mid nineties. They in some ways kind of epitomize feminism of the mid nineties, which gave with one hand and took with the other.
Speaker 1:So we had these five women who in many ways had more control over their careers than many of their contemporaries. They are still uh the spice. The first album is the best selling album by a girl, all female group ever. Still that's amazing.
Speaker 2:I would have expected Destiny's Child to be further, oh, wow.
Speaker 1:So in many ways they were, you know, had greater agency than many of their contemporary female artists, and also they were forced into this hyper-sexualized version, each of them of themselves and a schedule that was absolutely grueling.
Speaker 1:And a scrutiny that was absolutely grueling and a scrutiny that was punishing such that more than one of them had eating disorder. They all had body issues. I didn't even tell. I read when I was reading about them. After Victoria Posh Spice had her first baby, eight weeks after the child was born, she was on a talk show where he weighed her to see if she was back to her pre-baby weight. Yeah, emily's eight weeks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean not that, that's ever okay, I don't care if it's a freaking year. It is not acceptable to weigh a woman on an actress on a on a, or a musician on a on a morning show or whatever a talk show. It's not okay, unless it's one of those biggest losers. And even then we I don't think we should be doing that Like it doesn't matter, yeah, anyway, so you know the kind of. So these, so these women, so these women.
Speaker 2:There's also the tabloid culture in Britain. In the UK is like so ugly. This is a British show that did that. Yeah, it's so ugly in ways that American like I'm not saying ours is perfect at all, but it's ugly in ways that we just don't do Agreed, agreed, different ways, yeah, so they were undered Different ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so they were under constant scrutiny, constantly being told they weren't good enough, they weren't good musicians, they weren't good dancers, they weren't pretty enough, they weren't thin enough, they weren't. They weren't, they weren't, they weren't.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile, one of the most wildly popular pop groups of the 20th century, period so, both in the abstract, in terms of like what they represented, and in the way that they were received by the world, they epitomize sort of the push and pull of feminism of the 90s and what it is to move through the world with a body that is marginalized by our culture.
Speaker 1:There are some seriously problematic things about their archetypes and the names that they were given by this journalist at Top of the Pops the fact that the one black Spice girl was named Scary Spice. The fact that we had this, the youngest, who was blonde and blue eyed, who was named Baby Spice, like these things are. It's almost like they were saying the quiet part out loud and nobody reacted, and I really wish that. Or maybe they did and I was unaware of it, but I really wish there had been more in the 90s pushback to say like, um, this doesn't feel right to call the black woman scary like hello, and the way that Jerry pushed back on being sexy spice.
Speaker 1:Which was in part, as I recall. Again, I couldn't find any article that talked about this today, but I recall her being like as if we aren't all sexy. So even her rejection was part of the rejection of the leader and followers that all five of them had been sort of pushing from the beginning. So some of the ways that these five women pushed back against kind of what was expected of them was that the the two men who created the band wanted them all to dress alike. He wanted them to be sort of the he, he says. He wanted them to have diversity of like heights and body styles so that their fans could see themselves in the girls.
Speaker 2:But then he- wanted them to dress alike.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, I know, like they were all tiny.
Speaker 2:They were all tiny yeah, I mean, I remember that it was. There was a thing made of the fact that Geri was like relatively short, like 5'1". I don't remember how tall, and I remember there being, and then she's very busty, she's curvy.
Speaker 1:She's very curvy, but she was also very thin because she had an eating disorder. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, but that was a diversity of body styles at the time, right, whee, yeah, but that was a diversity of body styles at the time, right, wee, yeah, so, and there was this push and pull like, where the girls were sort of over the top versions of themselves but also dressed for the male gaze, but also they were things they were comfortable in. Just more so, and in fact they make that point in the movie. There's this one sort of montage. It's a photo shoot and they try on each other's clothes and they're like being each other and they're all kind of like this is uncomfortable, how do you wear this all the time? Oh, I don't like this. This is how do you wear this all the time? Of course, jerry's in Mel C Sporty's outfit and and she's like, actually, this is really comfortable, but the rest of them yeah like.
Speaker 2:The implication is that mel b is comfortable in what the you know, the body suits that she was wearing and the jerry was comfortable in the well and that bathing suit that she was wearing, that actually that speaks to why this would be so beloved by the transgender and gay community in that, like you know, it's just like there's nothing wrong with any of these. This is just what I'm comfortable wearing, right and like. I like it and I look good in it, yeah, so that that montage.
Speaker 1:Actually I really loved it. They didn't just try on each other's clothes, they tried on all different kind of personas. So like there's this one scene where Sporty is dressed Sporty and I'm not sure who the other one was, I think Baby. It was Baby, but they were wearing like grease and Sporty's dressed as like a greaser, like a man in, like the rolled-up jeans and like the big pompadour. She a man in like the rolled up jeans and like the big pompadour.
Speaker 1:She looks great, by the way, but they did a little gender bending too, like somebody else dressed as Elvis, like in this montage, which is just a I mean the whole thing is a throwaway and so it wasn't like a.
Speaker 2:That's the thing. Like, even a throwaway can be meaningful. Yeah, yeah, you know like and and they full and they're just having fun, which is part of I have noticed over and over again in this project we're doing is that so often we're just reacting to the fact that they're having fun.
Speaker 1:I think you are exactly right. I think you're exactly right. We didn't talk about that before, but I think that's a great. The synthesis is a great place to name that. That I think part of their appeal despite the fact that they were so-called manufactured, that these five women all replied to a casting call is that the chemistry between them feels real. And the fun that they are having feels absolutely real.
Speaker 1:I think that the Pepsi spot that they did that's part of what Pepsi was looking for. That's part of what makes I don't drink soda. I don't particularly care for soda, but I was watching that spot to prepare for this. I was like damn, that looks like fun. I love Pepsi. Those girls were having fun. Yeah, yeah. So I think you're exactly right that the just joy of friendship and of dance and of music and of what they were doing is part of what made them so wildly popular.
Speaker 2:Yeah, dressing up, being themselves or being versions of themselves. Well, and it's interesting too, because we come from like relatively rigid background in terms of thoughts about art, but there's also thoughts about like friendship, like you know, like that you should make friends in one way or another way. Yeah, that it's like illegitimate somehow to make friends by going to a friend meetup or whatever. So now this is partially like I think that people have relaxed a little bit about this, but it's still like it's so hard to make friends as an adult. But this was in 97. This was back when internet dating was like really, really looked down on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was totally stigmatized. People told lies about how they met.
Speaker 2:Yes, and so like that sort of thing, like everything has to be organic or else it's not real, and yet like there's this genuine camaraderie and chemistry and friendship among these five women who answered a casting call.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the through line for me about the Spice Girls looking back is sort of the push and pull, the give and take in the ways that I think that was often positive, sort of str in the, in the, in their parent, in the way that they showed up with other other characters and even in that moment, with the nearly nude male dancers where it wasn't just baby, like all five of them were like oh, this is not okay, you know so.
Speaker 1:So there's this, repeated through line of both and both, and for the Spice Girls, and it's really interesting to look back on, you know, and it shows up in multiple places. Right, they were both wildly popular and panned by the critics. They were both trivial and not important. And also Nelson Mandela was like these women are my heroines. What Right. They were both doing it perfectly and not very good and also sold a bazillion copies yeah you know, they were both appealing to the male gaze and showing up fully as themselves or
Speaker 1:maybe not fully, but showing up as themselves, right like in ways that they directed. So there's this really interesting kind of both and with the spice girls phenomenon, and with these five women in particular, that it makes sense to me now, looking back on it, 25, 30 years later, that they captured our imagination the way that they did, because we we thought we knew exactly who and what they were, but they surprised us like the, the, the knee-jerk, 20 year old tracy's response was ugh, these are two-dimensional characters just created to please men. And I was wrong and I was right, and I think that tension is part of what is so fascinating about them and I'm so glad too that that tension opened up and I'm so glad too that that tension opened up the tension and the popularity opened up space to ask these questions, to have this gateway drug to be like, yeah, friends are more important than dudes and I can be who I, who I, who I am, and if people don't like it, so I like yeah. So anyway, I feel like I it's.
Speaker 1:It's funny to me that this is the one that I'm a little like, more scattered than I usually am, so I'm having a hard time pulling together synthesis, but that's where I'm landing and it's really. You know, when you asked me about like why this one? I didn't even mention I I don't know if I could find it again, but somewhere there exists a photograph of 21-year-old Tracy wearing a tight red dress with that like spray hair color red and like blonde in the front and I'm pushing like two big palm fronds away so that I'm like peeking through these like potted plants, as ginger spice, circa 1998. And that photograph that's in my brain, that's part of the furniture of my brain, is that, like in an alternate universe, I could be ginger spice. You know, like there's and like I don't want to be ginger regularly, like we've talked about all the reasons that I don't want to be ginger regularly, like we've talked about all the reasons that I don't want to live her life, but even the possibility is like fun it's just fun yeah
Speaker 2:yeah so well, getting to, getting to try something on for a while, yeah, yeah um you know there's. There's one thing we talked a little bit before we started recording that. I just want to yeah, yeah, girls and women, like is trivialized.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, I think we implied it, but I don't know if we we spelled it out quite so clearly that, indeed, yeah, that part of I think what made Roger Ebert I mean not that Roger Ebert like held back when he didn't like something, but I think part of what made it very socially acceptable for Roger Ebert to completely pan this movie was that its biggest fan base was girls, girls under 13, teenagers and young 20 somethings, like I was at the time. Yeah, and it's okay to piss on stuff that they like. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and if it's not made with a dude in mind, right. Then like, clearly, this is a niche, this is a niche thing, and like I didn't like it because you know I wasn't centered, yeah, right, right.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, well, this has been fun. Thank you for coming with me on this trek to the 90s. I'm I'm gonna be playing wannabe after. Yeah, and you know, listeners, if I made you want to watch, uh, spice world. I'm really sorry it is not streaming. I actually had to dig out my old vhs tape in order to rewatch it. It's. I don't know if there's some sort of dispute about the music or something, but it's not streaming anywhere. You cannot find this movie streaming. So I'm sorry for that disappointing news. So, but okay, so it's your turn next. What deep thoughts are you bringing me next week?
Speaker 2:So next time I'm going to be sharing my deep thoughts about the Addams Family. So I'm specifically going to be talking about the two 1990s films that had Raul Julia, so Addams Family and Addams Family Values. But I'm also going to get into the original Charles Addams comics because I really loved those. I have not seen, wednesday, the new show. You should watch it. It is so much fun. I know I'll love it. I know I will.
Speaker 1:This is me being commitment phobic. No, you will love it. You need to like clear some time and just watch it. You know Christina Ricci shows up in Wednesday. She's like yeah, she's a side character.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no spoilers. And Fred Armisen plays Fester, doesn't he? I'm pretty sure. So yeah, I have not seen that, and part of it is because I love Raul, julia and Angelica Houston so much as Gomez and Morticia.
Speaker 1:These two, they do a good job and it's. You know what's the guy's name who plays? I can't he's, but he's actually Latino and so and there was like backlash for casting him, like what, but he was supposed to Well, and he looks more like the Charles Adams's drawings. Yeah, Anyway, yeah, I it's, it's. It's a mystery. You're going to love it. You're going to love it so much.
Speaker 2:You're going to love it so much. So I have so much affection for this story, the characters created, and it kind of embodies my whimsical with an edge, is my personal preference for everything, my style, everything. So I'm really looking forward to that. I'm looking forward to revisiting the movies and chatting with you about it.
Speaker 1:Cool. Well, I look forward to hearing your deep thoughts next week. And, listeners, if our deep thoughts have engendered your deep thoughts, we want to hear them seriously. So you can share them with us by emailing us at guygirlsmedia at gmailcom. You can go to our website, guygirlsmediacom and go to the listener forum and let us know there, or you can find us on socials. We are each there under our own names.
Speaker 1:Remember, tracy has an I E or we actually do have a couple of uh accounts as guy girls media on Insta and although is TikTok going to stick around, I don't know, who knows, it might be gone by the time this episode goes live. Well, if TikTok still exists, there is a guy girls media TikTok. We don't post very often, but we are there and, uh, we will get your message and we do have an Insta. So share your deep thoughts with us and until next time. Until next time, do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guy girls mediacom, slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?