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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark
That [imperialist, whip-wielding archeologist] belongs in a museum!
On today’s Deep Thoughts, Tracie takes on a pillar of her and Emily’s childhood: Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark. The sisters talk about what’s great (the soundtrack, the cinematography, Marion Ravenwood’s badassery), what’s not so great (the imperialism, the toxic masculinity, the lack of any women other than Marion), and what’s seriously inaccurate (the bulldozer archeological tactics, the history of the Ark of the Covenant, Marion’s ability to drink giant men under the table).
Listen as we try not to ruin another childhood favorite. Just watch out for snakes!
CW: Conversation about romantic relationships between an adult man and an underage girl, brief mention of the possibility of sexual assault
Mentioned in this episode
Archaeologists React to Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark
Screen Rant fact checking Raiders
Ecclesia and Synagoga
Christian Supersessionism
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
This is Tracy Guy-Dekker and you're listening to Deep Thoughts about Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? Today, I'll be sharing my Deep Thoughts about Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark with my sister, emily Guy-Burken, and with you. Let's dive in. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know what's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come over and think with us as we delve into our Deep Thoughts about Stupid Shit.
Speaker 1:This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people. Okay, this one is like. This feels like a pillar of our childhood. For some reason it's a 1981 film, so we were quite young when it was first released. I remember watching it like on on TVs. So I don't think we were watching it in 1981, but certainly in the 80s. But tell me what you you know, what you remember, what you know about the Raiders of the Lost Ark.
Speaker 3:So I remember the Nazi's faces is melting at the end because it is horrifying and cool and kind of equal measures. I remember the very beginning with the huge boulder, when he subs out the golden idol for the bag of sand. I remember Marion, played by Karen Allen. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I remember really liking her, but also like, even as a kid, at the end Indiana Jones says they don't know what they've got and she's like, well, I know what I've, I know what I've got. Let's get a drink. And it's just like where did? Why are you a bubble head? All of a sudden, like that line doesn't even make sense and like what is wrong with you? Where's the woman out drinking? The giant Tibetan guy that we first met, and I remember the monkey and feeling terrible for the monkey and the staff that they use to figure out where things are and being very excited by the idea of this like millennial old scavenger hunt.
Speaker 3:Like that there was something very appealing to me about that. Oh, and then the snake that goes through the peep toe of her shoe, because that was another like equal measure horrifying and cool. So I know there's, oh, there's, traveling via map, which I feel like this. I'm sure this wasn't what what introduced that idea.
Speaker 1:No, but I think it did popularize it, yeah, and I think I think it really did kind of like solidify it as like a vehicle for showing travel, yeah.
Speaker 3:And then I remember it early on, Jones is teaching a class and it's full of young women because he's Harrison Ford in his prime and there's one who had written love on one eyelid and you on the other. And I remember as a kid going like why did she do that? Because even though I was like committed to very handsome men, it was like that wasn't a thing in this movie, and also like trying to figure out, like how do you do that? Because your eyes would have to be closed and would you get a friend to help and who would help you with that. I spent way too long thinking about it.
Speaker 1:You heard it here first. We've been overthinking since we were children.
Speaker 3:Since like age five. So there's there's a lot of random stuff in there that that I remember. I also feel like even as a kid, I felt this kind of like oh, that's cool affinity for the fact that they were searching for an important artifact of Judaism, and so it felt like, oh, this, this movie is mine in a way that I didn't necessarily feel about pop culture because it was. You know, judaism was not often brought up unless it was like, oh, yeah, yeah, they're having Hanukkah. That was a bit so. So there was something that I really appreciated about that and felt like like I was one of the cool kids, even though I didn't really understand a word of what they're talking about, and much of my understanding of like the Ark of the Covenant came from this film. But still it was just like, and it's mine, it's why I'm one of the group. So tell me, why are we talking about this film today?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, as I said, this feels like a pillar of our childhood in terms of pop culture, like I remember Dad just being totally tickled by this movie, like specific moments, but just in general, like just really liking this movie, and so it kind of like stands out in that sense from our childhood and it is so. My brother-in-law is a student of archaeology that's not what he's doing now, but like has a master's degree in archaeology and anthropology and he says that he followed that path because of this movie. And I've realized that actually that's true of like 90% of people who are currently in archaeology, like they're there because of this movie. And so I thought, you know this it's, it's become such a touchstone of pop culture, like so much has derived from it or influenced by it, that I wanted to take a look back at it now with today's eyes and unfortunately I'm not really excited about what I'm seeing, hate to say it. Yeah, so I'm going to want to talk about and actually even since I initially, like before we started recording, I told Emily the two buckets that I wanted to talk about, and now it keeps expanding, as I'm thinking but so I really want to talk about gender in this movie, not just. We often talk about female representation. I do want to talk about Marion, but I also want to talk about masculinity in this movie and what it has to say, what this movie has to say about masculinity, the constellation of colonialism and imperialism and white supremacy and European supremacy specifically. There's a whole lot in this movie about that, even as regards Jewish stuff. Maybe I shouldn't say even like that's a part of it. I also want to talk about, maybe just briefly, some of the cinematic, cinematic choices.
Speaker 1:This movie was directed by Steven Spielberg, won awards, like it's a remarkable piece of entertainment of the medium that I think I just want to at least name For one thing, rewatching it. The score is its own character, it's really remarkable score and I feel like this movie helped teach me that. The atmospheric music helps me know how I'm supposed to feel. So all of these things. It's been a very, very influential movie, not just on us but on the culture. So that's why I wanted to take a minute and look back on it, and I know that you've seen it recently and you have some specific training too in sort of thinking about colonialists and British literature. So please like interject along the way. But I'll start with a brief recap of what happens in this movie. I'll try and keep it brief. I'm not always good at that so I will do my best. We can always cut and post. I will do my best. So I do think it's worth naming we open.
Speaker 1:We open credentialing this man, indiana Jones, harrison Ford who, you're right, is absolutely gorgeous in this movie. I mean whoa, anyway, we open on him. In it just says South America. I think it's meant to be Peru, but it's actually. The movie itself doesn't tell us that, it just says South America in 1936. And he is tracking down an ancient temple with a whole host of guides who sort of one by one, kind of peel off, either by abandoning him or dying. It's remarkable. Anyway, he finds this temple which is totally booby trapped. There's bodies everywhere. He manages to take the golden idol, which is a little statue about six inches tall, as you noted, by replacing it with a bag of sand. It's not good enough. Releases more booby traps, including this perfectly spherical boulder which I think if he had just ducked when he first saw it, it would have cleared the path for him instead of him being chased by it. But whatever, that's another.
Speaker 3:I just I also I want to put in that real archaeologists would be so fascinated by the booby traps Like they wouldn't care about the golden idol, Like it's okay. I mean, yes, they would care about it, but the amount that they could learn about the culture from this advanced engineering that still worked thousands of years later.
Speaker 1:Yes, in fact, there is a delightful video called like archaeologists react. I will link to it in the show notes, where these two women who are trained archaeologists, like watch the movie and react to different things that happen. And that's exactly what they say. All of those things. They say those things like imagine the technology and the fact that it still works, like we wouldn't. We wouldn't even get this far, we would just be like trying to figure out how.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, like how did they do this? And like get my notebook and we have photographs. Can we take photographs? And like everything we'd want to be like like dedicated team to figure out where everything was, and like like that would be the find of the century, not the not the golden idol, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, all of those things I will link to the archaeologists react in the show notes because they say exactly what you just said, totally validate what you just said.
Speaker 1:Okay, he gets the idol. He's leaving and he is confronted by Rinde Bellach, a rival, who takes the golden idol because he has the help of indigenous people the Hovitas, I think and like they have a standoff, bellach wins and Indy runs, he's manages to run, escapes to a pontoon plane and takes off. We next see him teaching with the Love you eyelids. So he's teaching archaeology in. You know, he's not wearing his like bomber jacket, he's not wearing a suit and the class is over. His friend, who is an administrator, like, comes to say there are these Americans there to talk to him. Why don't know? There are these army men to talk to him. Why do I want to talk to him?
Speaker 1:Okay, so it turns out now we, now we have the actual like West, the Nazis are occultists and they're gathering up all kinds of occult things and the army has intercepted this message about trying to find the Ark of the Covenant at Tannis in Egypt, and it names Abner Ravenwood, who was Indy's teacher. The next we see the quest has actually been accepted. The friend from the administration says they're going to pay you to go try and recover the Ark before the Nazis get it. Do you know where Abner is? I know where he might be, whatever. So then we see the plane. He's going to Nepal. Now we meet Marion. So it's a similar sort of credentialing scene as the Peru, this time with Marion. She is having a drinking contest with a much, much larger person, presumably a native Nepalese or Tibetan person, and there's like a ton of shot glasses on the table. They've clearly been going at it for a long time. It would have killed her.
Speaker 1:I mean yeah, it's a lot Like. A lot Like in the multiple double digits. The other person passes out, so she wins, so she gets all this money.
Speaker 3:They all leave all the native I am wondering if she was cheating, because she seems to sober up pretty quickly too. Pretty quick yeah, which I no shade.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So they all leave. We see Indy's shadow and then he greets her, she turns around, she punches him. She says at one point I was a child and I was in love, and how could you do that to me? And he's like I didn't mean to hurt you. So we don't know the details, but we know these two have a history. He was studying with her father, who we learn is now dead.
Speaker 3:And who kind of was furious at him for having a relationship with Marion?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is implied that that was in fact. Yes, that Marion is what? Because she says at one point I don't think it's in this first scene, but at some point in the movie she says he loved you like a son. Nothing could have gotten between you and he says except you. So it's been 10 years since they've seen each other.
Speaker 1:He says he needs this amulet that her father had collected. She says she knows which one it is. He answered $2,000. She says that's all, or something like that. She negotiates more money from him Once they get what they need. She says come back tomorrow. He leaves, she pulls the amulet out from she's wearing it around her neck and we learn at that point too that the bar is hers. He leaves and then a Nazi shows up with some local muscle, asks for the same thing. She's like no, get out of my bar. And then he threatens her with a hot poker from the fire and she's like oh crap, this is much bigger than I thought. Then Indy comes back. There's a really big fight. The bar is burning. Outside the bar, indy and Marion are talking and she says you got yourself a goddamn partner.
Speaker 3:And one of the Nazis had grabbed the. You get to that. Oh OK, sorry, I was going to get to that.
Speaker 1:Ok. So they go to Cairo. They meet up with Indy's old friend, salah, who is Egyptian, and Salah Indy says it's no wonder they hired you, you're the best digger in the country, or something along those lines. And Salah's like no, that's not it, they hired everybody. So the conceit is that the Ark was stolen by a pharaoh in a siege of Jerusalem around 900, 980, something like that BC, and was taken back to the city of Tannis and stored in what is called the Well of Souls. To find the Well of Souls you need to go to the map room and hold the magic amulet the one that we were just talking about, at the right height on a staff, and the sun will show you where the Well of Souls is. So the Nazis are here in Tannis, they've discovered Tannis, which apparently never went missing, and they're looking for the map room. Sorry, they have the map room and they're looking for the Well of Souls.
Speaker 1:Salah says they have an amulet. It looks just like that one, except it's a little rougher around the edges and it's only one-sided, so that it turns out is from as you say. The Nazi tried to grab the amulet with his bare hand, but it had been in the flames. So he has a burn in the shape of the amulet. So he was able to read some of the notes around the edges. Salah takes Indy and the amulet to an old man who will be able to read it. It says the staff needs to be however many cubits high except it wasn't cubits, it was a different measure. But the other side of the amulet says minus one in deference to the god of the Ark of the Covenant. So Salah and Indy realize they're digging in the wrong place. The Nazis are digging in the wrong place, led by Rene Belak, the guy who stole the idol back in Peru. So surreptitiously not that discreetly, honestly Not discreet at all but somehow unnoticed, at least temporarily unnoticed Indy slips into a domed map room, which domes not exactly typical of Egyptian architecture, but whatever and magic ensues as Indy finds the correct spot for the well of souls.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile there was a whole action scene where Marion was kidnapped and Indy thinks she's dead. He thinks she has been destroyed in a big truck explosion. He thinks she's been killed in a truck explosion. As Indy's escaping with the knowledge of where the well of souls is, he ducks into a tent to avoid discovery and there she is tied up and gagged. He takes the gag off. He's going to get her out. She's like get me out of here. And he says wait, I can't, because then they'll know we're here and they'll find us. So he puts the gag back on her and leaves.
Speaker 3:Because she's just a sack of laundry. That's going to slow him down.
Speaker 1:So then, undercover of darkness, Indy and Sala and a number of other men find the well of souls. They find it, they open it up, they look down and Sala's like why is the floor moving?
Speaker 3:It's full of snakes, Of course it is, and that's the one thing Indy hates is snakes. Why wouldn't it be?
Speaker 1:Right In our very first credentialing scene, we saw him be completely unfazed by dead bodies, by spiders, by poisoned arts, by things falling. He's completely unfazed. But then there's pet snake that freaks him out and he lets us know he hates snakes. Ok, so the floor of this well of souls is completely covered by I guess it's meant to be Egyptian asps. I mean Sala even says that very dangerous which is a form of cobra. But there are all different kinds of snakes in what we actually see.
Speaker 3:Well, it also doesn't make any biological sense, Like what are they eating?
Speaker 1:What are they eating Each other? Yeah.
Speaker 3:And in which case that's still not natural. And how are they all down there and I mean it does become they find a way out later. So OK, this is not still, but still Anyway. It's the desert and I don't really know a whole lot about snake biology, but it doesn't really make sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, anyway, indy manages, he finds the Ark. It's in this big stone sarcophagus. Sala and he just the two of them lift a giant stone slab and then break it. Yeah, they get the Ark out.
Speaker 3:No, what an archaeologist would do.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh no, oh my gosh, no. And then bring it back to where they had come down. They send it, he sends it up, and then Sala goes up. But meanwhile Belak and the Nazis have discovered the folks at the top of the hole where they had dropped down into it because Tannis has been buried.
Speaker 3:I do want to say one thing Belak is employed by Nazis, so he is also a Nazi. In the same way that if there's a table of 10 people and 10 of them are Nazis, or nine of them are Nazis, and one person is sitting there eating with them and perfectly happy to be eating with them, there's 10 Nazis at that table.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if the person knows they're all Nazis, yes, and Belak knows they're Nazis.
Speaker 3:He knows where the money's coming from. Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:OK. So while Indy was destroying ancient stuff and getting the Ark out of its resting spot, marion was doing what she could to save herself. So Belak the pervert gives her a dress. She's dressed. I mean, her clothes are kind of disheveled and ripped from the whole kidnapping thing, but she had been wearing like a gauzy sort of a blouse, like a cotton blouse, and trousers like red trousers. So he hands her a dress and peep-toe heels and then watches in the mirror. He turns around while she changes, but he watches her in the mirror as she takes off her bra, because the dress is not really conducive to a bra, because it's got an open back. And then she sits with him and starts and asks if he has anything to drink. So she starts clearly like trying to out-drink him, like we saw when she was credentialed, and flirting with him. I mean she's using that tool at her disposal.
Speaker 1:And just as she realizes she can't out-drink him because this is his family's label, like he, grew up drinking this stuff. But she grabs a knife and he just kind of giggles and she's starting to leave actually. But then the other Nazis come in. Now the two stories come together. Belak says how appropriate that you would die and become a part of this archaeological thing. And then the other Nazis are like yeah, and the girl too, because we don't need her, even though Belak wants to keep her for himself. So she gets tossed in.
Speaker 1:Well, she's a very pretty pile of laundry, yeah. So she gets tossed in and manages to fall gently enough eventually on Indy that she doesn't get hurt. Now they're stuck in this space, but Indy manages to topple a giant statue into a wall when he notices snakes coming through it and they find their way out. They destroy a plane and a couple of Nazis and then the ark gets loaded onto a truck. There's a high speed chase with lots of Nazis hanging on the outside of trucks and Indy getting shot and punched and dragging underneath of a truck and then hiding the truck in like a square. So Indy now has possession of the Ark. He's reunited with Marion. They loaded on a ship captained by a guy who saw Linos, who vows to protect them. The Nazis find them on the high seas. They take Marion, though the captain tries to protect her but he's unable. So they take Marion. Indy swims over to the submarine and rides it. I guess While it is in the hold of the ship, the crate holding the Ark, like the Nazi symbol on the outside, gets burned off.
Speaker 1:That actually is our first indication that there is In fact. It's not just what Indy has said before, it's not just mumbo jumbo. There's something genuinely supernatural about this thing. They take it to an island where Belak wants to do a some sort of ritual and open it so they can see if the tablets are inside. They believe the Nazis and Belak, I suppose, believe that there is weaponizable power in the fragments of the original tablets which are meant to be inside the Ark. So after a bit of a standoff and some chasing where the Nazis win more or less in the standoff, indian Marion are tied together to a post back to back. Belak is wearing an approximation of the vestments of a high priest as described in the Torah. The Ark is like at like a high point, with a whole, whole bunch of Nazis in uniform and two of the like sort of higher up Nazis who we've seen before around them. He does some sort of ritual. He's speaking Aramaic, I think. I didn't go to like figure it out. It did not sound right.
Speaker 3:To me yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, for one thing it didn't end with amen, amen or Amin, but whatever Anyway. So after he does this, then they open it up and there's just sand inside and they're like very disappointed. But then like starts to be like lightning and thunder and Indy says, marion, close your eyes, don't look, don't look, no matter what happens. And then we watch as these like ghouly, kind of like like apparitions, like ghosty looking clouds, but then they have human faces kind of come out and the Nazis are like oh, it's beautiful, and bellox like super excited, but then it turns ugly and they are like skull faces and lightning like hits bellox and then shoots out to a bunch of Nazis and then the top Nazis faces melt what you remember? And then everything, everything gets sucked back up into the Ark and the lid gets put back on it. Marion and Indy open their eyes their bonds have been destroyed and like yay, they won.
Speaker 1:Final, final scene in the original Army guys who first told us about this the Nazis were looking for it are back with Indy and his friend whose name I totally don't remember, doesn't matter Talking about what happened to the Ark and how it needs to be studied. And the Army guys are like, yes, and we have our top men working on it. And Indy's like who? Because you know, I guess it's a small enough industry that he knows all the top men. And the guy goes top men. And then we see, oh, and then there's the scene that you remember. He comes out and he's so frustrated and because they don't know what they have, but Marion knows what she has, so they're going to go get a drink. And then the very, very final scene we see the Ark being put into a crate, a wooden crate, with like property of US top secret, us something or other on the side, and being wheeled into a ginormous warehouse of similar crates. And that's the end.
Speaker 1:So I know that wasn't concise. I'm sorry, I'm really bad at concise summaries of what we were watching. There's just so much good stuff. So let me start, let me start with gender in this movie, because that's where we so often start. So get it out of the way. Nope, doesn't pass back to not even close. Is there another woman other than the love you girl? There are other, like Salah's. I don't know if it's Salah's wife, but there is a woman when he meets Salah who's serving wine, which, also in Egypt, feels weird.
Speaker 3:Really I think so, because there are. There are Christians in Egypt, the copped COPT copped Store.
Speaker 1:Yes, anyway, doesn't matter. But yeah. Ok, so there are, like we do, and in fact there's a lot of children, children, save Indy from Belak at one point, by just just by being around him. So because they know that the bad guys won't hurt kids.
Speaker 1:There seem to be some girls among among that group of kids. None of them have names. Marion is the only named woman and she does not speak to any other women, so it doesn't even come close to passing back to that said, marion is pretty frigging awesome, and not in a like I mean a little bit in a not like other girls way, because, like, she can drink that person under the table, but not in a perfect sort of way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which I think is really, I find really refreshing. She also is not, though she does need saving, or she actually. Let me rephrase that, though she is saved a few times, she also does some saving, and she certainly does not wait around for the saving, like from the very beginning we see her, you know, from that first fight scene with the Nazis.
Speaker 1:we see her fighting back and fighting back hard, which I deeply appreciate, you know, especially thinking about, like Princess Buttercup our conversation about Buttercup, for instance where like, couldn't you had her? Like grab a stick and bash the ROUS. Marion grabs the stick and bashes the Nazis and has a gun and shoot someone who's about to shoot India. At one point she hits people with torches and with frying pans. Like this woman is not a bottle of alcohol too, doesn't she?
Speaker 3:Well?
Speaker 1:she hands a bottle of whiskey to Indy, who uses it? Gotcha, ok, ok. So that's pretty awesome. She is not a shrinking violet. I think it's also significant that the movie makers chose to make the bar hers. She wasn't just working there, it was her bar. When she tells Indy she's coming with him, she doesn't just say I'm coming with you, she says I'm your goddamn partner, right? So I think there are things about Marion that are flippin' awesome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, especially 1936. That's when it's set yes, that it's set in 1936, that she is, and that's like I don't think that that is not to say unusual. I'm thinking of movies from like the 30s and 40s with, like Catherine Hepburn and like, yeah, that there's. There's that kind of core of like don't fuck with me that you get from, from heroines from that time period, and I feel like she fits in nicely there in, but in a way that is also reasonable for 1981.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I also like that. She is a sexual creature, right, she uses her sexuality against Balak and then in one moment of caregiving, when they're on the boat, indy is totally torn up from his like High speed, everything, fight with the Nazis, and she's trying to help tend his wounds and he like keeps flinching away because it hurts. So finally she's like damn it what doesn't hurt. And like he points to his elbow when he points to his spot on his forehead and he points to a point, point in a jaw, and then he points to his lips and they start kissing and she's disappointed that he falls asleep, like she clearly is disappointed. So I like that about her.
Speaker 1:That feels like empowering and subversive. You know that it's not, though he does point to his lips in that moment. It's an invitation that she takes up. It's not, it's not forced on her, it's not, she's not reluctant. There's something empowering about Mary and sexuality in this movie. Okay, now we've talked about female gender or presentation of female gender in this movie. I really want to talk about masculinity in this movie because Ford, indiana Jones, as played by Harrison Ford, is like hyper masculine. In some ways he is invincible. I mean they had to give him an Achilles heel and so it snakes. But it's almost like her laughs because he is unstoppable.
Speaker 3:Well, and the thing that he doesn't like is other people's penises.
Speaker 1:I mean like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean it snakes that he has a problem with not spiders, right you know, because there's right, right.
Speaker 1:And if he doesn't flinch at all from the, they're like giant tarantulas on him and on his companion in the in the very first scene, and he doesn't flinch at all. He just doesn't bother with his with his whip.
Speaker 1:He does use a whip as his weapon of choice or tool of choice, because he doesn't just he use, he does use his weapon, but it's not his only weapon and it is appreciated Like we see the love you girl right, like he is just dashing and there's something incomplete about that. I mean so much so that, like, despite what I just said about marrying sexuality, there's something like I don't know, that just doesn't Hang together for me. Mm, hmm, about.
Speaker 1:His sexuality. I mean, he clearly has a history with Marion and there's meant to be a thing there, mm hmm. But I almost don't believe it, maybe because he leaves her there and puts the gag back on her. I mean, I was thinking about it after watching out. The movie does not at any point suggest explicitly that Marion suffers sexual assault. It does not suggest that, but it does suggest she was going to be tortured by the same guy who threatened her with the hot poker, mm hmm. And in the ass to have known that that was a possibility. And he put the gag back on her. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, when he puts the gag back on her.
Speaker 1:she's still wearing the Blowshine. She's still wearing the right trousers. Ok, gotcha.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but they're torn up, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:The sleeves are torn in things, something that I know about the making of this movie, the scene where Indy's friend from the university his name, wita can't remember comes to his house and he starts packing yeah, indy's in a bathrobe. Yeah, indy's in a bathrobe. Yeah, that was. There was an extended scene and he had a woman there that ended up getting cut. So this like idea of him being like a rockstar archaeologist with groupies you know is, is something they really wanted to. And they show him being like disconcerted a little bit by the, the Love you girl. Yeah, but that seems more like just context rather than like this is the wrong context for this. Like talk to me in my office. And then the other thing that I know about the making of this and I believe it was George Lucas, which, because George Lucas, was involved in making this as well, he was one of the producers.
Speaker 3:Wanted the backstory between Mary and Indy, that she was a literal child, as in like 13 or 14. And so she's like 23 or 24 now. Ew, yes, ew.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's been 10 years, and watching it, I imagine like she was like 22 and now she's 32.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's what they ended up doing. But Lucas originally was just like. I just think it would be really interesting if she were, I mean, maybe as old as 15, but and it's just like, ew, yeah. Now, where I find this is very interesting is I know that George Lucas and Steven Spielberg were inspired by the novels of writer Haggard. He was a like the most popular novelist in the world in like late 1800s, early, early 20th century. The two most famous novels were King Solomon's, mines and she. I've read them both.
Speaker 3:When I was in college, I did a independent study on literature of British imperialism and Haggard was someone that I studied. It's been years, like more than 20 years, so I don't remember details. She is about a woman who is something supernatural. She's thousands upon thousands of years old. She is short for she, who must not be named. I don't remember what her actual name was and there is a point where whatever the magic is that keeps her looking youthful goes away and she ages like a thousand years in a moment and like really goes into detail about how she becomes like this monkey looking thing before she ultimately dies.
Speaker 3:Writer Haggard had a real problem with women and the fact that a woman would want to retain youth and beauty is both considered like, like how dare she try to grab that power? But also how dare women age? And so like there's so much in there. And then the fact that George Lucas had this like, oh yeah, really young, I think they really interesting. And so like the fact that the like youth of Marion was what was so fascinating to the filmmaker. And even with that, like Karen Allen is younger than Harrison Ford Not by that much, I mean, it would have been like, I think even like she could have been like 19 or 20 when he was like 28 or 29.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's actually what I sort of expect If he was like a graduate student of her father. So she's like 20 and he's like 26. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I don't know age and appropriate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I haven't looked it up.
Speaker 3:I don't know what the actual difference is, but I think it's about 10 or 12 years between Harrison. Ford and Karen Allen.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Actually let me look it up Harrison Ford 1942, Karen Allen 1951. There's a nine year difference between them, so like a 28 year old with a 19 year old, so that's pretty big that's that's I would be if I had a 19 year old child. I would be concerned Very and would lead to the the dissolution of a relationship with the, the. So that makes sense. Yeah, but it also like that at least is the same thing, that at least is.
Speaker 1:It's not reasonable.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, that is too adult, able to consent. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, I think that that is very interesting, that there is this like obsession with youth and beauty, and that's part of like Bellach's obsession with Marion is her beauty. He doesn't actually know her as a person, like he talks about liking how feisty she is, but it's like, but it's still a challenge to be conquered. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, yeah, yes.
Speaker 3:And similar to everything that they're doing with the archaeology, is a challenge to be conquered. Yeah, it is not actually about knowledge. It's not actually about better understanding history and where human beings came from, and like what was important to the two are our distant ancestors or the distant ancestors of people in other places. Like the fact that they open in South America and they don't specify where, as if all of South America is the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, and even I mean even the interest in the in the arc is about the potential weaponization of it. Yes, at least from the Nazis, but yes, but let's. Let's get into that, though let's actually talk about that, because you brought in British imperialism by bringing in writer Haggard. So let's talk about imperialism and some of the like underlying ideologies here, because I think that's relevant to the, to the archaeology question, mm. Hmm, I don't think it's in this movie, but Indiana Jones is famous for saying that belongs in a museum, right. Even that sentiment, which he holds passionately, is imperialism, the white saviorism. It's, it's and it's white, it's white supremacy and it's European supremacy. Like no, that belongs with the people to whom it has meaning, mm hmm, and the even the way that it's treated.
Speaker 1:So Jones says early on I don't believe in that mumbo jumbo. Right so, and the movie makers follow us right like that golden idol, that the Hovita's revere is just a hunk of gold, mm, hmm, the Ark of the Covenant from Jewish and therefore Christian. Mm, hmm. Folklore that's the word that Indige uses in his classroom. That has real power, that shit's real. That connects us to God, yeah, and so, like, like. Baked in to the cosmology of the metaphysics under underlining this movie, is European supremacy. Mm, hmm.
Speaker 3:Well, and when we talked a little bit before we started recording, alfred Molino plays Sopito, who is the last of Indy's guides. At the very beginning, alfred Molino is a British actor. I looked him up and realized his father was Italian, his mother was Spanish, or vice versa might be mother was Italian, father was Spanish, but he was born in England. So he is playing a Peruvian, or I mean Unspecified South. American.
Speaker 3:South American with an accent which, considering the fact that one of his parents was a native Spanish speaker, made me feel a little bit better about that, but it's still not the same, yeah. And then Jonathan Rhys Davies, who plays Sala, and I have to say I have a great deal of affection for that actor. He also played Gimli the dwarf in the Lord of the Rings trilogy. He is a Welsh actor who has a gorgeous voice. He is a white Welshman playing in Egyptian and it's a similar sort of thing like, oh, if it's a speaking role, we got to give a white guy that job. Yeah, and there's, it's a similar sort of supremacy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, baked into the sort of meta piece of it in terms of the casting choices, there's also the moment, from the very beginning. Well, first of all, like Indy's like completely disturbing this indigenous space, the holy space, without any kind of consent from, from the descendants of those who put it there, okay, okay, just to grab a piece of gold.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, the descendants of those who put it there. And they are under the I don't even know what to say it like it's not just employee, because the influence like Belak, this white Frenchman, has their loyalty and controls them, because he can speak their language, like the visual of the symbolism of these natives, and I'm using that word intentionally, because the movie makers give us these indigenous people as savages, mostly naked, shooting poison darts, like it is just playing on all kinds of stereotypes, european stereotypes of savages, like I'm using that word intentionally. That's what they are giving us under the control of this white Frenchman.
Speaker 3:Now I do want to say I like the fact that Belak took the time to learn the language and speak to them Like I've. In some ways it's gross that the movie then says like okay, and so now you know he has their loyalty. But the thing is that is what you should be doing. You should be learning that. Oh, of course I'm not suggesting that like, yeah, but that to me and like, and this I might be putting too much on this, but my other major in college was French literature and there was a joke was like what do you call someone who speaks three languages tri-lingual, someone who speaks two languages bilingual, someone who speaks one language, american, yeah, and so there is a sense there that, like Indy is very much first asked questions later very American.
Speaker 1:Yes, all of those things. And even with that, the implication for us, the viewer, from the movie makers is that Belak is somehow savvy and sneaky Not that he's like, and he certainly is not doing the Jovitas any favors In fact the conversation in English between him and Indy. Indy says they don't, the Jovitas don't know you like I do. And he says Belak says well, you could warn them if you spoke Jovitas. And then he says something in Jovitas to them, so like yes, and that's not what the movie makers are giving us.
Speaker 3:No, no, it's interesting because what it shows us because Belak is the one who insists on doing the ritual at the end ends in the Nazis deaths, and his own and his own, yes, and it feels like there's this comparison with Indy, because he, like, immerses himself more and it gets into a sticky end and Indy keeps himself above, like he doesn't learn Jovitas, he doesn't actually believe in the stuff until because he never would have opened the arc, he just would have taken it to study it or whatever, and so, like he wins. In the end Belak loses and it's just, it's very bizarre. I also I do want to talk about the arc of Indy's like character arc, because he's I don't believe in that mumbo jumbo, but he's right enough about it to know that if he closes his eyes he'll survive, and when the chips fall he's like all right, I'm just going to believe the mumbo jumbo. I've read, and so it would be really interesting because it's now a franchise.
Speaker 3:Now, I've only seen the first three. I've not seen the two relatively recent ones. The next one was a prequel, so okay, but then, oh, what's the one with Sean Connery? What is that one? You know which one? I mean? The last crusade, the last crusade. Okay, so in the last crusade he has gone back to I don't believe that mumbo jumbo and so like there is an interesting character arc there where it's like he actually has proof it happened in front of him. Now he didn't see it, but Nazis all died and he had to have heard what was going on. And then he goes right back to like no, I'm a rational man, I'm a rational man of science, and it's like what is that saying to us? Like, what is that saying about masculinity? What is that saying about?
Speaker 1:I think those are good questions and I wanna add additional questions to it because I think part of bellach's downfall is hubris. I mean, he is dressed in the vestments of the high priest, or some approximation of that as described in the Torah. But here's the thing. So we're told by the guy whose name we don't know that the arc could level mountains, that the Bible says the arc could level mountains. The Bible says no such thing. The arc is in fact, powerful, but not like that.
Speaker 1:So the one that always sticks in my head because it's always bothered me there's a story where King David is bringing the arc into Jerusalem, because we've had this for a while, like in the Tabernacle, when the people were traveling in the wilderness. We're building Jerusalem. King David is bringing the arc, he's super excited about the arc, he's dancing in front of it and it starts to slip on its cart and poor Uzza just some dude who's walking behind it like reaches out to study it cause the thing's gonna fall and is instantly struck dead Cause he dared touch the thing without being in the right state. A non Jew, a non-cohein priest who would deign to perform some sort of ceremony with something as holy as the arc was gonna die. If the mumbo jumbo is real from the Bible, belak would have known that, like even in the fictional world of Indiana Jones. And so there's something like, in addition to the questions that you're asking about, like this push pull of like metaphysics as well but I only believe in physics and reason there's also this like keeping your place sort of within the holiness hierarchy, which is part of like what closing your eyes is.
Speaker 1:Like no one can see my face and live. I mean, there's nothing that says you can't see the content. Like that's not exact. It's kind of like extrapolated maybe, like God does tell Moses no one can see my face and live. That's not what's happening Like it's so it's made up. Yeah, it's made up. But even within sort of the alternate universe of Indiana Jones, I do feel like there's some hubris in Belak believing that he could do this, which isn't the same sort of thing Like he believes it because he's been getting away with it. He learned Jovitas and became the boss of the Jovitas, so of course he can learn the whatever ancient version of Hebrew and be the boss of the art. Indy knows better than that Maybe.
Speaker 3:It's interesting just because it gets into. It's based on historical fact that Hitler was interested in occult objects. I don't know if Hitler was interested in the Ark of the Covenant or anything like that from the history of Judaism.
Speaker 1:Well, they have the. I mean in the movie. They have one of the Nazis say I'm uncomfortable with this Jewish ritual. Are you sure we need to do this? That's how Belak condenses them to do it, as you noted, which all of the Belak hadn't, and then presumably the Ward of Windemann over a lot faster. Yeah, Because Hitler would have.
Speaker 3:Well, it was 1936, he would have yeah, there would have been, we would have saved millions of lives. Millions of lives, yes, but the Like the thing is, you get this like kind of weird tension as well. If Hitler is looking for and just in the universe of Raiders of the Lost Ark, hitler is looking for these legendary weapons from the Torah and history, while wanting them to destroy Jews, and it's like, why would you think that would work for you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that actually because of Christian supremacy and and and super supercessionism that actually feels pretty much explainable Like yeah, supercessionism being what it is like anything that belonged to Jews is now Christian and the Jews no longer have claim on it. That's, that's just like the, you know the classic. It's on that cathedral right when the ecclesiastica has defeated synagogue. Like, oh gosh, I don't know that, wow, I'll link to it in the show notes. Like there's a cathedral in Europe with like a figure they're both female, but she's like holding a cross and she's victorious. And then there's another figure that's meant to be synagogue, the synagogue and it's. She's holding a staff with a star of David and she's blindfolded and broken. And yeah, yeah, well, and actually doesn't feel hard to answer, even in our universe.
Speaker 3:That's true. I just kind of I think it's worth highlighting the logic of it, the hypocrisy of it, absolutely yeah, the hypocrisy of it. And then also the fact that Steven Spielberg is Jewish yeah, like, I think that like there's a reason why it's right as the lost Ark I mean, we got get to the Holy Grail with last crusade.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But you know he starts with the Ark.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's definitely a comment that the Nazi symbol gets burned off. That I pointed out in my yes, yes, yes, absolutely. I mean the Nazi space is burned off, melted off.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that is such a useful symbol.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well. We've been recording for a minute. I feel like there are other things that I could say about this movie. I mean, like, like the body count is really high. I feel like some of the, even in what we've been talking about right now, I feel like there's a bit of fetishization of ancient people, including Israelites, and sort of the ancient Jewish practice. That is worth on packing, but I don't have time to unpack right now.
Speaker 3:So I do want to make one comment. There's that famous scene where there's extended fight scene and then there's a guy with a giant knife or sword and he's doing all these things and Indy just takes his gun and shoots him in the head. And it's very funny like the timing and the reason behind it is because Harrison Ford had gotten like dysentery or something like that.
Speaker 2:And so like I was having over, but yeah no, no, he was sick.
Speaker 3:He was sick and so, like there was supposed to be an extended sword fight scene and they're like, ok, we'll cut it and here's how we do it, but the effect is more of this like Western and white supremacy. Yeah, it's like I have the better weapon. Yeah, you have all this flourish and it's meaningless in the face of my better weaponry, which, like it's so well done in terms of comedic timing, even just thinking about the fact that it's a dead person and the reason for it. It gets into what I love about like storytelling and stuff. Like that is like you know, sometimes you got a swerve because of like an actor is sick and you end up making this iconic moment, but then it's like what is it telling us?
Speaker 1:Yeah, this iconic moment. What lessons is it imparting? What?
Speaker 3:lessons are we learning, and it's not pretty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I feel like I'm going to have a hard time like summing up, but I will try. I will try. So gender we do not pass the backdale test and Marianne has greater agency and more power, in both traditionally feminine, coded ways through her sexuality, and in traditionally male coded ways through, like physically hitting people through out drinking people. Masculinity as performed in this movie is over the top, perfect, macho, unflinching. The colonialism slash imperialism, slash white supremacy slash European supremacy in this movie is both overt and covert, which is which is interesting, it really is.
Speaker 1:It really is. It's both baked into the metaphysics of what happens in this movie and also just outwardly performed over and, over and over again. It's also like a really powerful example of this medium in terms of the ways that it is able to move the viewer through the score, through the action, like through kind of the, the build, the shadows.
Speaker 3:Like the way they use shadows as amazing.
Speaker 1:The crescendo of stakes like what is at stake, even by setting it with Nazis as the bad guys, kind of raised the stakes on this weird sort of mystery goose hunt Adventure tale. Yeah, yeah, let me see what else.
Speaker 3:The idea of hubris yeah, and how that I mean, because that's even part of what Indy has a problem with at the end is like you need people studying this and they're like, oh, we've got it, even though they're doing nothing. And the hubris of like that you can keep it contained by putting it in obscurity. Like that. There's a lot of menace to the end of this film.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh. The other thing is sort of the like basic fact checking, which I think others have done really, really well. I'll link to this, yeah, the archaeologists. I'll link to another thing that I read Like there's, there's a kernel of truth to the idea of the Ark of the Tablets, the Ark of the Covenant there was. There is described a thing such as this it did not go missing when an Egyptian, pharaoh that Pharaoh did in fact exist and did sack Jerusalem, but evidence seems to suggest the Ark was still in Jerusalem until the Babylonians destroyed the first temple in 587 BC, so another 400 years after. Indiana Jones claims that it was taken to. And it was taken to Tannis, which was the capital of the Egyptian kingdom, and did get abandoned because of shifting the shifting nature of the Nile. It was not a year long sandstorm and even like sort of what the Ark is purported to be capable of. Like there's there's some serious fact checking that needs to happen, or we just need to accept that we're in an alternate universe.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just fine.
Speaker 1:So it's streaming on Disney Plus now, apparently, disney has gotten the rights to the Indiana Jones franchise. I think it's worth revisiting. It's a fun thing to watch, with a huge grain of salt and an analysis of sort of what it is that we're watching. Yeah, did I forget anything? Anything you want to add before we turn our attention?
Speaker 3:No, no. I think that's a pretty good breakdown of what we talked about.
Speaker 1:Cool. So next week I think you're bringing me some deep thoughts.
Speaker 3:Yes, I am going to bring my deep thoughts about Clueless, the 1995 film with Alicia Silverstone that I was a little obsessed with in high school.
Speaker 1:Awesome, can't wait, so I'll see you then. See you then. Hey you, yeah you. You're a deep thinker, I can tell. Let's make it official. Head on over to our website, guygirlsmediacom, and make sure you don't miss a single deep thought. You can get me and Emily in your inbox every week. What are you waiting for? Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember, pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?