Deep Thoughts about Fraggle Rock

The Trash Heap has spoken! NYEAH!

This week, Tracie takes a deep dive into Fraggle Rock, the 1980s children’s TV show that Jim Henson hoped would bring about the end to war (really!). The Fraggles, Doozers, Gorgs, and Silly Creatures of Outer Space (not to mention an anthropomorphic pile of trash) taught children how to resolve conflicts with people who are different from them, respect the traditions and beliefs of others, and listen rather than assume. But even a well-intentioned and adorable show from the mind of a genius can offer some unpleasant lessons, such as hierarchical thinking and exploitation of the working class.

Listen as Tracie and Emily explore the religious undertones and cultural assumptions of this beloved artifact of their childhood.

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon. 

Mentioned in this episode:

Fraggle Rock is streaming on Apple+

Fraggle Rock: The Ultimate Visual History

The Maryland Center for History and Culture: The Jim Henson Exhibition: Imagination Unlimited

Deep Thoughts About Disney's Beauty and the Beast

Mr. Noodle

Ameila Bedelia

Russell’s teapot

Transcript

 I'm Tracie Guy-Decker, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit. Because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?  Today, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about Fraggle Rock, with my sister, Emily Guy Burken, and with you.  Let's dive in.  Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? 

What others might deem stupid shit, you know, matters, you know, it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come over, think with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. This show is a labor of love. But that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking.

You can support us at our Patreon, there's a link in the show notes,  or leave a positive review so others can find us. And of course, share the show with your people.  Okay, um, tell me what you know or remember about Jim Henson's Fraggle Rock. I remember really liking it.  Um, so the fraggles live underground, I think,  and there's one fraggle has, has left the, the community.

I feel like they're hobbits in that way and that they don't often go on adventures. It's traveling uncle Matt, I think. Uncle traveling Matt. Yes. Uncle traveling Matt. Um, there is a, uh, kindly old man who has like a.  Uh,  workshop or something that is where the fraggles have to go through to get  the postcards from Uncle Traveling Matt.

And, uh, the Kindly Old Man has a dog who's also a Muppet.  I remember that. In, like, the Fraggle Land,  um, there are the fraggles that are, I don't know, what's it, like, cat sized creatures.  Um, and then there's the dozers that are these Teeny tiny little creatures that are constructing things all the time and the fraggles eat the things they construct. 

I remember there's a trash heap that's like an Oracle and one of the FRAs is named Red,  and I think that covers my full memory. of Fraile Rock . I do. Okay. That's pretty good. I do remember there was either an episode of Fraggle Rock, or it might have been like a picture book of Fraggle Rock. I feel like it was a picture book where  one of the FRAs. 

Starts feeling bad that they're always eating the dozers constructions and so they convince everyone to stop eating  But the dozers are actually really unhappy about it because they're only happy when they're working And so as annoyed as they are that their constructions are always getting eaten It gives them the opportunity to always continue to build which is a really weird message now that I'm thinking about we talking about that We will be talking about that today.

It was an episode Uh, it was an episode. Okay. But I do remember having read a picture book of Fraggle Rock at some point. Like, I know that there were picture books that came along with it. So yeah, those are, those are the, the things that I remember about Fraggle Rock. So tell me, why are we talking about the Fraggles today?

Yeah, you, you remember a lot. Well, I'll, I'll give a, I'll give a overview, but um, yeah, so we're talking about it today. As listeners already know, I'm, I love The Muppets. Our second episode was a, about a Muppet movie, but Fraggle Rock in particular. I also loved it. And in fact, part of why I wanted to talk about Fraggle Rock 'cause it was, is because it was one of my first. 

Times actually thinking deeply about the messages behind children's programming. So when I was in college back in the mid nineties, one day I came to the dining hall and it was like, I was running late and I was going to miss the whatever meal it was. And so I just came without like doing my hair. Uh, and I sat down across from my roommate, Jenny, and she started giggling fraggle because my hair was sticking straight up.

And so we started talking about Fraggle Rock and the doozers, they're doozers, not dozers. Um, okay. Okay. Yeah. And so we were talking about the fact that like the doozers always build and the fraggles always played and like, Hey, wait a minute.  It's their species. Like the workers are, it's their species.

Like they can't change it. Like kind of insight that I was having about the servants and beauty and the beast. And so Jenny and I cooked up this idea to do an independent study for like, to get college credit to like investigate this in Fraggle Rock. We were at Oberlin college and we found a professor, Professor Day, who was willing to sponsor this and  We watched a bunch of Fraggle Rock episodes and wrote a paper and got college credit for it.

So there was a little bit of nostalgia, uh, in deep thoughts with that moment with Fraggle Rock. So that's part of why I wanted to revisit. If I knew that you did that, I had completely forgotten it because this feels like news to me. Yeah. I'm not sure why you would have known. I mean, maybe you would have known.

I don't know.  Anyway, so so that that's a little bit of my history with Fraggle Rock. So let me fill in some of the gaps from what you remember. And then we can dig in a little bit into some of the things I want to think about more deeply. So Indeed. Yes. The fraggles live underground and sort of in the walls.

So, and there are, there are three species that we meet in Fraggle Rock. So as you named, there's the fraggles who play, they have a 30 minute work week, which is canon. They have a 30 minute work week. They do all have jobs. Their favorite thing is to swim, um, and to dance and sing. In fact, in the, the theme song written for it is, uh, uh, you know, dancer cares away.

Yeah.  Uh, works for another day. Save them for another day. Yeah, yeah. Let the Fraggle play play down. Fraggle down a Fraggle rock. Yeah. So, so they're meant to be about between a foot and 18 inches tall. And then there are doers who are three to five inches tall. And then there are rgs um Oh, the rgs. Yeah.

They have to, they have to run to, to, uh, avoid them. Right. Uh, when they go visit the trash heap.  So the gorg are like our size. They're human size, maybe even a little bigger. They're big and round, and there are three of them.  Kind of like Sweetums, the Muppet, yes. So, and there are three Gorgs. There's, um, Daddy Gorg, and Mommy Gorg, and Junior Gorg, and they are a king, a queen, and a prince.

Uh, they once were in power, at least this is sort of the Mythology, they tell them themselves and now they're farmers.  The fraggles have to run through their garden in order to visit the trash heap, who is in fact an Oracle. They also steal vegetables  from the Gorg's garden. So as you say, Uncle Traveling Matt.

was an explorer, and he explored all of the caves of Fraggle Rock and mapped them, and then kind of had run out of space. We meet, we meet him in the pilot, and then he's in a very distant part of the rock and finds a hole to outer space. Oh, that's right. Yes. The real world is outer space. Outer space.

Outer space is our world, where An inventor named Doc lives, that's the kindly old man you mentioned, and his dog Sprocket.  So Doc is the only regularly occurring human. Everything else, everyone else in the whole show is a Muppet.  And  Uncle traveling, Matt decides that he is going to explore outer space where he meets what he calls silly creatures. 

Silly creatures are us, but also anything in this world. So in the very first, in the pilot episode, he like is walking and bumps into a fire hydrant and it's like, Oh, excuse me, sir. I'm so sorry. And it's like. Annoyed that the, this silly creature, the fire hydrant is so rude, but it's also then spooked by a group of teenagers, teenagers walking, um, who scare uncle traveling, Matt.

And he, so.  In each episode, we have just a brief thing where he sends a postcard back to go, and we actually see what's happening to uncle traveling, Matt narrated by uncle traveling, Matt, where he's misinterpreting things in the human world. So that's the sort of. the land that is created. So doing some research for this, for our episode, I was lucky enough that there is an exhibit at the Maryland Center for History and Culture right now about Jim Henson, and it actually originated at Mo, MoMie, the Museum of the Moving Image, and is now So does Jim Henson have any Relationship with Maryland.

Yes. Yes. He, um, he was, uh, he grew up in Silver Spring, Maryland and went to the university of, oh, I had no idea. Okay. Yes. Okay. And in fact, his early career was on DC and like Montgomery County TV. And he was like, started making puppets and, and. Putting them on TV, like while he was still in college at the University of Maryland and did all these commercials for like Wilkins coffee and SK Meats.

I knew about those. Yeah. So yeah. Yes. Hence it has a Maryland connection. That would not have been part of, you know, our history lessons in elementary school, but man, I wish that was like, I can't believe I didn't know that. Yeah.  So. We're both from Maryland, by the way.  We grew up in Baltimore. If you're wondering why I'm like, my mind is blown.

Anyway, please go ahead.  So this, I just saw this exhibit, it's been less than a week while we're talking and it was, it was so cool to see some of the puppets in real life and like, see the, the growth and development of the art. So that was pretty cool. And while I was there, I picked up, um, a book that was, it's like the complete visual history of Fraggle Rock.

So I've been perusing that, which is, it's, it's pretty neat. It's got like facsimiles of their notes and stuff. And  anyway. This show, which it aired from 83 to 87. And so they'd been working on it for several years by the time it actually hit the airwaves on HBO of all networks. And Henson was mainly only had an executive producer.

Credit on this. So it was his, like, idea, but he really delegated and let the team do it. So there's a whole bunch of creators who are working on the stories and the puppetry and the process they went through. Emily was so cool. Like they actually started these like lists, like books, almost of like things we know about the deucers, things we know about freckles, things we know about gorgs.

And then like. As the independent things that then kind of intermeshed, which as a process, I just find really fascinating. Well, one of the things that like blew my mind as I was doing this research is that Henson envisioned this show as a show to end war, a show to bring peace because he was educating children and he was going to like  fix societal problems of misunderstanding and cultural difference. 

Yeah.  Yeah. Wow. So,  he, he was envisioning these three species, the dewsers, the fraggles, and the gorgs, as this, these interdependent. Creatures who had each stage had their own culture, and they completely dependent on one another, but also misunderstood each other to the point that the Gorgs don't even know that users exist.

So the biggest don't know that little lists exist  and. The envision it from the beginning that this could be a show that would have international appeal and international presence. So the dock and sprocket characters and the silly creatures. Was envisioned as a wrap around that could be swapped out for different language and culture markets.

So  Doc and Sprocket were the North American, but then there was a different actor and Germany and in Japan and in France and like, and it was designed that way on purpose so that the. The local markets would have to produce, would have to have the opportunity to produce, you know, maybe five to 10 minutes per show locally.

So the silly creatures that Uncle Traveling Matt meets in Japan are different than the silly creatures Uncle Traveling Matt meets  here in North America. So that was the vision from the beginning. And according to my research. Many of the markets did in fact do that. Some actually felt it was easier to just dub the existing.

They didn't want to go through the trouble of developing new. They just dubbed the existing. So as a mission, like that just kind of blew my mind that Henson was thinking.  That big. So big. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the late 70s, early 80s.  And also, I find it deeply validating per our project here, you know, about what it is that we are  ultimately trying to say about pop culture and its, and its influence. 

With that as a little background, I want to dig in and actually the show that you're talking about, the one that maybe was also a picture book, I want to like dig into that one in particular. And there's one other as well. So that episode is actually called the preach of vacation of convincing John. So that's the name of the episode.

I'll get there. I'll explain it. So it starts with doc and sprocket and doc is doing something. He says, I'm going to put this in my diary. And he sits down and he says, do you keep a diary sprocket? No, of course you don't. You're a dog. And then he says, the diaries are wonderful. And then we cut to inside crack, fraggle rock and Moki, who is the blue, blue and aquamarine and purple, like lavender one.

She's the tallest fraggle of our. Four or five. And she's the sort of like new agey kind of hippie vibe, kind of a fraggle. So she's writing in her diary in which she also draws. And she's telling her diary that she started really paying attention to doozers,  which most fraggles don't, but she's paying really close attention to them.

And she's like getting real, like  vibey with the doozers and enjoying their productivity and their build. And then while she's thinking, like, after she finishes in her diary, she, like, grabs a duser tower and, like, munches on it. Because as you said in your memory, the fraggles eat the dusers buildings, which the dusers make out of some sort of radish powder, which both dusers and fraggles love radishes.

I don't know.  Okay. Radishes. Just take it. So she takes a bite out of this tower, and then a duser comes over in their, like, miniature heavy equipment and, like, replaces it. And then she's like, Oh, Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that I, you know, and so she gets in her head that Fraggle should stop eating the Dueser's buildings because the Duesers work so hard on them.

And then they just destroy them. And the Fraggles just destroyed the Dueser's building. She actually forces her four companions. They're, they're five central characters that we meet over and over again. She convinces them to take the Fraggle oath. Which apparently if one travel asks, and you must do it, um, take the travel oath to never eat a deucer building again.

And so their portion of the rock starts to get like really, really full and like, like Gobo's guitar gets hemmed in and, and Boober who loves doing laundry, his laundry tub is full of construction and, and it's, it's, they're just. They're not liking it. So then all five of them are going to this, the hole to outer space to get the latest postcard.

And, you know, it's all full. And two of the fraggles, two of the core fraggles, like  they, they flake, they just, they can't, they can't stop themselves. And they start chewing and like, Moki gets really upset. Meanwhile, uncle traveling, Matt sees a construction site out in the real world and tries to take a bite and like, you know, hurts himself on the like steel.

What's it called when you No, no, when you set up something like a round scaffolding, Oh, he takes a bite. He tries to take a bite of scaffolding because that's actually what dozers stuff looks like. It looks like scaffolding and he like hurts himself and Moki's like, this is terrible. And anyway, so she goes to convincing John and they're all like, no, you wouldn't, you would never go to convincing John, but she does.

So we meet convincing John and convincing John is like. A TV preacher.  He's super persuasive. He has backup singers because music is very important in Fraggle Rock. There's always at least one new  bespoke song for the show in every episode and usually two or three. So convincing John and he's convinced Moki to keep plastic cups on her hands and convinced red to like wear a blindfold.

Like.  Who knows why, but that's that's how we see. That's the proof that he is, in fact, very convincing. And then he does this whole number where he gets the entire population of Fraggle Rock, all the fraggles to take the Fraggle Oath to never eat another deucer building. And Moki's so happy. And then. Fast forward, you know, the rock is full of, you know, the caves are full and Moki is, um, taking a walk.

Cause she's feeling weird about things and, and her friends are mad at her and  she knows she's doing the right thing, but something just doesn't feel right. So she's taking a walk. She's like,  Out of the main section of the, of the caves and sees this doozer family sitting and there's like a mommy and a daddy and a baby doozer.

And the baby doozer is like, mommy, I don't want to leave. And the parents are like, we have to because the fraggles have stopped eating our constructions. And so we have to go because we can't keep building here. So we have to find a new place to build. And, you know, they're like, why would they do that?

Why would the fraggle stop eating stuff? Don't they care about us anymore? And so, of course, Moki has the realization that she misunderstood what was happening, and she releases all the fraggles from their sacred oath, and they all start eating, and everybody's happy, and the doozers move back in and start building again.

And the moral of the story, which Moki says to her diary, is that she thought she understood. What the users needed and wanted, but it turns out she didn't. And so I'm thinking back to our conversation about Harry Potter and how, you know, Hermione didn't never actually asked elves what it was that they wanted from her.

Um, and so in that sense, right? Moki's lesson is. It's an important one for humans, right? Which is to  listen  and not assume and not, you know, swoop in to save someone who  if you ask, doesn't need saving  on the other hand,  it feels super status quo to be like.  Yeah, keep exploiting them. They like it.  It's what they're made for.

Yeah. It's their purpose, is to be exploited. And if you stop exploiting them, then They have no purpose. Like that just feels. Oh, my gosh. Without a soul to wait upon. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And so I'm like, I'm in a spot where I'm thinking, like, God bless Jim Henson. I love him. And also intention and impact Jim. 

You know, I mean, it was 1980. Three when it aired. So, you know, 40 years ago, it was an important message and it's a piece of a message still.  And also, like, Ooh, that's a big grain of salt right there. Yeah. Are there any users who Don't want to build. Interesting question. So in the final season we meet Cotter pin.

So all the doers have names that are, are I remember that name? Yeah. You remember Cotter pin. So all the doers have names that are, you know, like mechanical in nature. Mm-Hmm. . So we meet Cotter pin and she's headed for the ceremony of the helmet. The helmet ceremony, something I didn't, I didn't have a chance to actually rewatch it.

So I read about it, which, oh, by the way, folks streaming on apple plus, if you want to watch the original fraggle rock, I thought it would be on Disney plus because Disney acquired the whole Muppets franchise, but apparently this one was separate apple plus. So. In the final season, we meet Cotterpin, who is heading for the helmet ceremony where it's, it's a coming of age ceremony where the Duesers accept their role, you know, on the, on the construction crew that is life.

And she just doesn't want to. She just does not. Want to and she's keeps resisting and then eventually meets the architect who is a dozer, uh, who helped, you know, makes the plans that the rest of the community actually are, are building and it turns out that there actually have been many in the past who have resisted or rejected the.

Helmet ceremony because all the users wear their tiny little things, but they all wear hard hats. So there have been many users who have, who have resisted or rejected their, their own helmet ceremony, including the architect himself. So Caterpillar becomes, uh, Architect apprentice, I believe.  So,  yes,  sorta.

Right. And in fact, that reality of the sort of different species and the workers that that was what led me and Jenny to  investigate this in the first place. So, this, this particular episode maybe was in my head as it was in yours. These 25 years later, since I did my  independent study at Oberlin college.

But even then, when it was only 10 years old in my brain, God, is that right? 12. That stuck out, especially, you know, at Oberlin college where, you know, we're known for being leftist, you know, so like we were just sort of swimming in, in class consciousness of the nineties.  So that that's an interesting thing, and I want to zoom in on something else  in that episode and another, which is religion and how religion sort of shows up and is critiqued and not like, so even if.

I hadn't identified Convincing John as a TV evangelist. The name of the episode is The Preachification of Convincing John. So that's not just me, right? That was an intentional, he was an intentional kind of  figure to be seen as some sort of religious, charismatic leader. He has resisted, like, the, when Moki says she's going to go To talk to him, her friends are like, Oh gosh, you wouldn't, you wouldn't do that.

It's like the nuclear option that they don't believe she would actually take and are surprised when she does.  And then he can convince anyone to do anything.  Whether or not they actually want to,  which I think is like,  that's an interesting thing that the, the TV makers are saying about, about religion.

So I'm going to put a pin in that and I'm going to give you another example and then we can compare and contrast them in the third episode of the first season. It's called let the water run. And in this episode.  In our world, Doc is working on his boiler, so he has to turn off the water. Now, remember, fraggles love swimming.

They're, like, the center of their world is this swimming hole.  So Red, one of the fraggles, is planning a big swimming show, and she's super excited about it. And then up in the gorg world, we see Daddy Gorg is going to take a bath. So Junior Gorg has to go pump water for Daddy Gorg's.  So he goes, he puts a Bucket on there's a pump spigot, like, with a big pump  and he pumps and  so we see simultaneously the water in the swimming hole drains. 

Because the gorgs are pumping it up for daddy gorgs bath and the fraggles are like, why does it always drain every day at the same time? And they're like, I don't know, but it always does. And the pipe bangers bring it back. So in our world, Doc says, listen to those pipes bang because it's going to be the last time you hear them bang because I'm fixing this boiler.

In the Fraggle world, there are these dudes, these FRAs, who have these like funky hats on that almost look like those smurf hats with the big kind of curl. mm-Hmm . But then have like a decorative, like it looks like a spigot with like beads hanging out, as if it water, and there's a number of them and they're called the pipe bangers, and they sing this little song and they bang on the pipes, which run all through the rocks with their banging sticks  to dock.

It sounds like you know the pipes of the radiators. Are banging and then water flows after the pipe bangers bang.  Well, this time, after the swimming hole has been drained by the gorgs, which the fraggles don't know why,  Doc turns off the water because he's fixing his boiler. It doesn't refill the pipe bangers.

Bang. No water comes. The gourds need more water. They try to pump. No water comes. And they're all sort of like the fraggles and the gorgs are sort of like, what is happening? Why is this happening?  So meanwhile, we get a postcard from uncle traveling, Matt, who says the silly creatures have this amazing stick that makes water come from the sky. 

And so we watch him watch people at a bus stop, look at the sky, stick their hands out and then put umbrellas up and then water comes down. So he thinks they caused it with their umbrellas. There's an umbrella in Doc's workshop on the floor. So, Gobo, Gobo's our protagonist. He's Uncle Traveling Matt's nephew.

He reads the postcard aloud. Red says, you got to go get that stick.  Or actually red says, I'm going to go get that stick because a sub moral of this one is about the importance of asking for help and delegating. We don't need to go in there. Anyway, they get the umbrella, they bring it back to the pipe bangers.

The main pipe banger says, this is the best pipe banging stick I've ever seen. And it's like, no, it's an umbrella. You're supposed to put it up. And he says, Oh, I know what a pipe banging his dick is.  So he bangs the pipes, sings his little song. Let the water flow. Doc finishes what he needs to do. Turns the water back on.

This guy's water bill must have been huge. They finished their song and the pipe banging and the water comes back. The corks have their water for the, you know, the pump starts working. So they get the rest of the water for daddy works bath. Um, and the swimming. Show can go on. And back in the nineties, when I did this thing, I was curious about how that one, this one about the pipe bangers would land with children.

And so I actually was babysitting for some extra money. And one of my professor's kids, who is a grown up now, which  boggles my mind, but he was like,  Then with his parents permission, we watched this episode and I was like,  what, you know, what'd you think? What did you, did you want the water to work? Like, and like, as a four year old, he was like, yeah, I was really happy when the water came back.

He wanted to maintain the magic for the pipe bangers and the fractals. Like it was important to him that doc get it done in time or at the, you know, like in the right order so that it, so that it lined up with the ceremony. Which even at the time, I was like, wow, that's really interesting. Why is that satisfying?

You know? So anyway, I wanted to kind of put these two moments of religion  in conversation with one another because we have this, these pipe bangers who are self consciously made to look like they're, they're high priests of a sort. Or priests of a sort like they are religious. They're in charge of a religious ritual, which keeps the water flowing, which is the core of the swimming is one of the core pieces of travel culture.

And we as viewers know that it's not the pipe banging that makes the water come. It's actually just plumbing  and, you know, doc, but we still want them to have it. We want them to have to believe. They have the power and agency,  and then we contrast it with this charismatic  sort of television style preacher  who has power over his fellow Fraggles, but we're not sure he ought to  because our ultimate lesson here is that what convincing John convinced the Fraggles to do was not the right thing.

And I'm not even sure that I, I can articulate like what that tension is,  but I find it really interesting, especially in the midst of this children's program that the TV makers self consciously were making to try and bring about world peace. So this is really fascinating to me in part because I know, you know, I can't remember if I've mentioned on the show before, I am fascinated by extremist religion and in particular American religions.

And so things like the televangelists of the 1980s, which I was only, you know, very barely aware of, but  that is a very particular  type of religiosity that is American. And It is so often a kind of power grab. It's a twisting of faith into something that is only helpful to the televangelist. And there's, there's this, the smarm, there's the, the charisma, there's the backup singers.

And so it seems like that's a very pointed comment. from the writers, the show runners about someone using faith. But what's interesting is it's not convincing John's own advantage. Convincing John doesn't seem to get anything out of it. I don't think so. So that's interesting on the one side. And then on the other, as you're telling me about the, the pipe bangers and all of that, what, what's going on partially is, is that dramatic irony that you love?

Yes. That even a four year old could, you know, like, Oh, I know what's going on, but I really want them to have. Have this thing and there is this kind of tension where it's like faith in something harmless is fine faith in something harmful is not. I don't know if these were written by the same. I mean, I'm sure there was a writer's room, but it's kind of in a way putting the viewer.

In the role of, like, anthropologist, so now some of this is just kind of how we teach children, like, where we consistently have, you know, like, uncle traveling that misunderstanding things. There's Mr. Noodle on. No, that's not how you feed a fish. Mr. Noodle on on Sesame Street. I mean, like, almost world. Yeah, I think so.

There's this, I have no idea if it's true, but there's this like hilarious meme that I've seen where someone was saying like they're at a hotel and all hotels have PBS is the channel that comes on. It's like six 30 in the morning. They've got the, they turn the TV on and it's Mr. Noodle. And then like from next door, they're  Damn it, Mr.

Noodle. Come on, get it together. Some guy is just, you know, getting frustrated with Mr. Noodle. So in any case, that's something that's, that's, that's part of how we teach kids. Like we, we Emilia Bedelia. Yes,  but there is also by making the kids in on the joke, because some of it is, you know, letting them like, Oh, I know how this works.

But in terms of the, the pipe bangers, it's not even so much. Oh, I know how this works. And they're misunderstanding it. That is like. A kind of separation of superiority, inferiority, um, there's, there's, there's kind of a colonist perspective of it of like, isn't it adorable that they think that this is what what's happening.

And I'm not going to, I'm not going to touch their beliefs. There's a, there's a prime directive kind of thing there. Like, yeah, it's not on me to stop them from believing that, you know,  it's really interesting. I don't think you're wrong. And one of the things that over the course of the four or five seasons, actually, they eventually, Gobo, who is a nephew, who actually is the one who goes into Doc's workshop to pick up the postcards from his uncle, eventually does meet Doc.

And then they actually speak to one another. So from the beginning, Sprocket, Sees Gobo and sort of chases him and barks at him and stuff But eventually Doc and Gobo meet and talk to one another and then Doc is moving across the country I want to say they're in New York and he's moving to California, but I may be off Don't quote me on that, but he's moving out of this workshop and Gobo is kind of upset about losing his friend So he goes to see the trash heap and the trash heap tells him to tell Doc you can't leave the magic He goes to go Tell doc that and it's too late.

They've already left. But then he discovers another tunnel that he's never seen before. And there's more to it, but it's a tunnel to Doc's new place on the other side of the country. So there's a magic to the pipe bangers apparent power  over the water, which we, as viewers know, is not in fact, magic. It's plumbing.

And over the course of the show, it is magic. And so there's sort of an interesting over the, the whole course of the show of the four or five seasons thinking about like, well, what is magic actually? And does it matter if it's plumbing? If at the end of the day, you know, like, is our life better or worse  for believing that the water flowing is because of the pipe bangers.

Or because of plumbing. And I don't think that, I mean, I know they didn't set out from the beginning, because this was made like an American TV show, not a British TV show, where they saw where it took them. I mean, they definitely had clear  objectives, but I don't think an overarching story was developed across the four or five seasons from the beginning.

So I think that's sort of an, an interesting, like, again, tension. Which feels really real about  faith and magic and, you know, miracles like the quote attributed to Einstein, which  I think maybe he didn't actually say, but it doesn't matter. It still has power. You know, you can go through life as if everything is a miracle or as if nothing is. 

And the pipe bangers thing, like it's more sparkly.  What's interesting, though, is that the show very specifically makes sure the viewers know. And that's what's interesting to me, especially with the fact that Convincing John is this character and it's showing the downside of being convinced of something that's not necessarily true.

Yes. Although that happens later, like in terms of when you see it, though, Let the Water Run is episode three and the pre tiffication of Convincing John is episode six.  In between actually the next, the very next episode after the let the water run with the pipe bangers is you can't do that without a hat.

And this episode, it's sort of the Dumbo and the feather kind of a thing. So Boober, who is this sort of super depressed, he's the one who loves laundry and he's the ultimate pessimist named for Martin. I'm assuming.  No.  Uh, no. Spelled differently. Yes. So, Boober, B O O B E R. Okay. Boober is No I, though. No. No I, though.

He's very afraid all the time. And he goes to see the trash heap about being afraid all the time, and she says, she tells him that he doesn't need to be scared because he has his courage hat,  and it's like she gives him a hat. And so it's very much the Dumbo and the Magic Feather kind of a thing, where he's brave when he's wearing this hat, and then he loses the hat.

But this episode is resolved when Gobo finds the hat. On a user. The doozers have heavy equipment, which is actually very light equipment because they're tiny, but they have like bulldozers and excavators and stuff. So it's like moving through raggle rock on a doozer, a piece of doozer equipment, Goble finds it and returns it to him.

So he has his courage back. And I bring that up because like, it's another example to your point where the viewer knows like, we know the hat is just a hat.  And also, the showrunners keep the mythology intact for the fraggles.  But it's not for us as the viewers.  And it's a really interesting sort of thing to think about with kids.

What is that teaching to children? Yeah. I mean, is, I mean, ultimately, since this was a show that they were trying to bring about peace and end conflict, I think what they were going for was intercultural competence. They were going for like objective fact and truth can be a little fuzzy,  right? Like, Boober feels more courageous when he wears the hat.

Mm hmm. And just because it's just a hat doesn't mean he doesn't feel more courageous with the hat. Yeah. Well, placebos actually reduce headaches. Right. Right. And so something about sort of respecting the effect  regardless of the, I don't know. veracity of the causation, maybe, you know, and, and actually the trash heap, since I brought up religion, let's, let's talk about the trash heap for a minute.

So this is really interesting, sort of the, the show runners, like the, the, it was a big team and they knew they wanted to have the trash heap. In fact, the trash heap had been suggested for previous shows and things and never had never gotten made because the team were talking about how, when anthropologists, when archeologists  are looking at a culture, they don't want the palace.

They want the dump  because that's where they actually learn about the people. So the trash heap, we meet her in the pilot and she says something along the lines of,  or actually her, she has, it's funny. So there's the trash heap Marjorie. And then she has these two little rat like creatures who hang out with her.

They're not rats. They're Muppets, but they're sort of rat like. So they kind of. introduce her and talk to her. And they say about her, the trash heap knows all the trash heap sees all trash heap is all. And the very first episode, Gobo comes to her. He's like terrified because he promised uncle Matt that he would go to outer space to get the postcard, but he's terrified of it.

And she says, you need a friend. Friends are good. And then, so he takes moral support with him, but she's, she delivers these little pearls of wisdom from, I mean, she, she's like covered in like coffee grounds. And like, you can see visible. Banana peels and like other pieces of trash. And in fact, after she's done delivering her wisdom, she kind of like sinks down and it's just a pile of trash.

And, and then her little rat guys go, the trash heap has spoken. Oh yeah.  You remember that? I do. I do. Okay. So if I can interject. So the fact that, that you brought up like archaeologists and anthropologists wanting to look. at the dumps. That resonated because I, what I keep thinking of is colonialism and the view of looking at a culture from an objective standpoint from outside, which is what it feels like the show is encouraging children to do.

And it's not that it's problematic to look at another culture and be open to what other cultures are doing. It's the fact that it is giving children  the knowledge that this culture is wrong,  like in terms of objective fact, even if the truth is that's, you know, the pipe bangers got the new pipe banging stick.

And so it is this separation. And I'm just thinking of my English major. I focused on literature of British imperialism because I found it fascinating in part because so many of.  The British who were doing these horrible things truly thought they were doing good. They were bringing civilization and Christianity to the world.

Blah, blah, blah, let's put shoes on the natives. I'm really hearing that in that it's, it's saying like, oh yeah, you're going to come across people who believe things that you don't believe. And it's not saying like,  Those beliefs are just as valid as yours or anything. It's like, it may be objectively wrong, but it's adorable.

I don't think you're wrong. And I do think it's worth noting that the three species, there are no good guys or bad guys. There are no villains, right? So even the, the gorgs are always trying to catch the fraggles, but they're still not villains. And the one human We actually see who would be sort of like us, the viewer, us human children watching is just as ridiculous, right?

So, like, in the episode, the let the water run episode, I think it's that one. Um,  he's, he's an inventor, right? But he's trying to figure out how to sew a button on a fried egg. Like, he never says why just to see if he could do it. Yeah, right. And because it's there, right? Meanwhile, poor Sprocket is like, hungry and keeps like, giving him hints that he's hungry and he says he's gonna feed him, but then he gets distracted by the fried egg thing, and in fact, at one point, like, Sprocket, like, Gives him the can opener and Doc is like, I saw a button on a Friday with a can opener. 

And then, like, the next scene, like, Sprock is, like, chewing on the dog food can and Doc is like, that won't work. You'll hurt your teeth. Use a can opener.  So, like, the colonialist kind of. superiority is there also for the human in this show?  Which then does get also to how we teach children,  you know, with the Amelia Bedelia and Mr.

Noodle and, and, and all of that is, is it's giving children that chance to feel like, Oh, I know, I understand how this works. And that grownup doesn't. Right. I think it does mediate, at least to some extent, the sort of. the colonialist pattern that you're naming by having the only human in the show also  be absolutely ridiculous and, and a Mr.

Noodle of sorts, right? I mean, honestly, Sprocket, the dog is the only one who seems to actually like grasp things the way that the viewer might.  So I think that does mediate some of the specific concerns that you are naming. I'm not saying it erases them, but I think it does mediate. And I do think it's significant and, and speaks to what Henson was hoping to do with this show that there are no villains.

And from the very beginning, we see, in fact, Wembley, one of the core five is captured by the Gorgs in the very second episode.  He has a great time.  And they ultimately like, it's scary for, it's scary, but it's not scary for the viewer. And it's not even particularly scary for Wembley after the initial moment.

Scary for his friends. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. But there's like, it underscores the fact, the sort of, there are these cultural differences, but it's not actually dangerous, which I think is, is an important message, especially if we're thinking about for kids, if we're trying to combat xenophobia and cross cultural misunderstanding.

It's a push pull.  I'll give you that. It's definitely a push pull. I'm just thinking of there's a similar push pull. You know, you get into like extremely online atheists and like the atheist movement and it, it's really weird  how that ends up tracking with like men's rights movements. And some folks that I knew in college who were like kind of outspoken atheists and leftist, like very narrowly missed  going fascist because That's where atheism went.

In any case, I'm thinking about the way that people from that movement and even the people that I know who very narrowly missed like going super rightward and kind of like caught themselves still say things like, you know, well, believing in God is like as ridiculous as believing that there's a teapot orbiting Saturn.

Like there's no way to prove it's real or not real. And so, you know, it's just as ridiculous. It's just as ridiculous a concept.  And that's. glib dismissal of someone else's truth is ugly. It's ugly in a sense of superiority. And so I can kind of see this as being like a, like a very gentle, like response to that sort of ugly glibness that, you know, when you were telling the story of how the pipe bangers episode went, which I have no memory of that one.

I found myself thinking like, yeah, I really wish the, like, The teapot people could watch that or could have watched that as children because they, they would understand like, this isn't harming you. This isn't taking anything away from anyone. And it's a truth for the fraggles that gives them purpose and meaning.

Meaning. I think that's really significant because that's exactly my thought with the teapot ideas. Like what meaning is there in a teapot orbiting Saturn? Because that's what the pipe bangers have. And give to the fraggles, right? Is meaning an agency. And we can argue as to whether or not the agency is real, but the meaning, the meaning, we can't argue.

A teapot orbiting Saturn  has zero meaning. That's the whole point. That's why they use that as the example. That's why these, the radical atheists use that as the example. And, and in so, in so far as it has no meaning, they're missing the whole point. Right. And in my opinion, yeah.  So I think that's a really interesting part of what's making me think that way and where I went with that in my head is that so often the radical atheists set themselves up as superior because, you know, like I have the objective truth and in a lot of ways they are responding to the way that ugly faith can set themselves up.

It's superior. Yes. So, like, I'm sympathetic to that, but it's interesting because that particular storyline  gives the 4 year old watching  the sense of superiority that you get from and also. The gentle understanding that giving the fraggles this win, this religious win, gives them meaning and is ultimately harmless to anyone else and is meaningful to them in a way that makes the viewer feel good.

Because it makes the fraggles feel good. It improves the fraggles lives. Yeah. And so, like, it's interesting because, like, I, you know, I very much doubt anyone had this in mind when writing it, but it's got me thinking about, like, human beings like to set up hierarchies. They like to feel superior to others.

That's part of the reason why we do the Mr. Noodle, like, and Uncle Traveling Matt style of teaching and a much kinder interpretation than my, like, immediate, like, colonialism is, like, Using that enjoyment of that kind of sense of superiority to gently make it clear that it's okay to let people be,  which is something that more people need to know,  people need to recognize.

And like, you know what, it's ultimately, if someone feels superior to me, because I am a practicing Jew and you know, there's, there's no objective truth that shows that anything that I do means anything. To anyone other than me, someone feeling superior about that doesn't bother me at all. As long as they don't act on it.

Right. So, so like, you know, getting to that where it's like, you know what, there are going to be times when like, I am judging McJudgerson about something as long as I don't act on it  halfway there at least I can work on my judging McJudgerson on my, on my own. I don't make it someone else's problem. Yeah.

Okay. Well, we've been talking, uh, the time box says almost an hour. It'll be less than that once I edit it down, but let me see if I can kind of summarize what we've. Talked about and you can fill in what I missed. So talking about Fraggle Rock, this show that Henson and company were really hoping would help to usher in a new age of greater understanding and less conflict in some ways, you know, was on the mark in terms of thinking about like.

Allowing people and cultures to have meaning, even if it doesn't work for you and sort of making kid viewers feel good about that, even about maintaining that meaning and. The fact that there really are no villains in this show, there's just difference and misunderstanding and then better understanding and because the different cultures are different species.

There's an essentialism to it that is problematic from a 2020s perspective, even though some of the lessons about actually listening to people about what they need.  are still needed in the 2020s. When we look at it critically, there is a interesting and I think nuanced and complicated view of religion coming from this show.

I mean, the idea of religious truth is questioned and also embraced. So it's, it's truth, but it's not fact.  And that's an interesting distinction, especially at the 2020s. But I have, I have a question and this may not matter because since Henson had others do the writing, but did he have any religious tradition?

Was, was he,  Jim Henson was raised Christian scientist. Really? Okay. Even into his twenties, he taught Sunday school at Christian science, uh, Christian science church. But in 1975, he informed the Christian Science Church that he was no longer a practicing member. This is according to Wikipedia.  So, I don't know.

Do with that what you will.  That could be another episode. I have a lot of thoughts. But again, this is, it's not necessarily reflected in this because Who knows who wrote these episodes and was this part of his initial vision? Things like the, the pipe bangers.  Yeah. I mean, I think he was still very much involved.

So if it was not, if it went against his initial vision, I don't think it would have made it into the show. Oh, sure. Sure. But there's, there's a difference between it being.  springing from your own imagination and you going like, Oh, I like that. We'll keep it in. So let me see.  The sense of separation of kind of superiority that kind of in some ways reminds me of like imperialism or colonialism or white saviorism in a way, but In other ways, doesn't because no one swoops in to save.

Right. And the, you know, potential connection with white saviors, Moki and the Duesers, she is put back in her place for that. So again, problematic ways. There is also an interesting look at gently reifying hierarchies in a way that Understands how much everyone and particularly children like feeling superior  while also gently reminding and rewarding the viewer that there's nothing wrong with letting people be.

Right. The essentialism and the reifying of the hierarchies, it's subtle and sticky. The ultimate sense that it is somehow natural.  And normal, especially in the episode that I talked to the preachification of convincing John episode where Moki has the Freggle stop eating the doozers construction, that the exploitation is the natural order and shouldn't be messed with.

Ouch.  It's,  it makes it clear again that even someone as genius as Jim Henson, because he was a genius. He was absolutely.  And as Menchley, because he was a Mench, and who had in his head this enormous goal. Intention. This intention of ending war. You still can't unpack all of the assumptions. that you breathe in, that you live in.

And really it's only time that can help you get to where you can see that. I feel like there are ways to try to educate yourself and all of that, but there will always be blind spots until enough time has passed or enough evidence has grown or whatever it is. Like it's, it's not something that you can force if you can't see it,  which is.

I don't want to say like, it's, it's in some ways comforting to me because we're all just doing the best we can.  We do the, we do the best we can until we know better. And when we know better, we do better. Like Maya Angelou said. Exactly.  This was a, this was a lot. And there was, there's like a whole thing about the trash heap that we didn't even get to, you know, I feel like there's gender there and she kind of sort of like, I would love for you to watch one episode and like, tell me if you think she has a New York Jewish accent because it sort of sounds like a New York accent.

Well, and Marjorie sounds like a New York. Jewish name. Yeah. Yeah. And like, what do I do with that? If in fact it is in New York, like, I, I don't know, maybe we'll unpack that on our own time,  but yeah. Let us know if you'd like that to be a bonus episode. Yeah. Or what you think if you remember Marjorie or you want to go stream her on Apple plus Marjorie the trash heap.

Okay. Well, that was fun. Thank you for, uh, going on that trip with me. And What are we going to do next time? So next time actually is going to be our first kind of hybrid episode. We are going to be at LucyCon in Schaumburg, Illinois. Yeah, the Lucifer convention. I think they're calling it the heaven and hell convention officially.

Really? I think so. That's what my email said. So we're, we will be going to that and we're going to be talking before and after a little bit about Lucifer. We've got our sister podcast. Lightbringers. So we're not going to go too, too deep into it, but while we're at LucyCon, we're going to be talking to other Lucifer fans and it'll be really nice.

We're going to have lots of guests. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Me too. All right. Well, see you soon. See you soon.  Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetech. com.  Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember, pop culture is still culture and shouldn't, you know, what's in your head.

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