.png)
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Deep Thoughts about Muppets from Space
It's time to play the music! It's time to light the lights! It's time to talk about Muppets From Space tonight!
In today’s episode, Tracie thinks deeply about the underrated 1999 gem, Muppets From Space, which sees Gonzo finally meeting his alien brethren and learning why he loves getting shot out of cannon. While the themes of found family, loyalty, and getting down with your bad self, are all part of what makes this film a delight, there are some troubling messages about consent and othering that deserve scrutiny.
Listen in to find out how Muppets From Space can be read as an allegory of trans-racial adoption, how Miss Piggy was an unsatisfying role model to the muppet-loving Guy sisters, and why Tracie sometimes jokingly threatens to smack you like a bad, bad donkey, ok.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t launches August 24. New episodes will be released on Thursdays for Patrons and the following Tuesday for everyone else,
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, and secure early access to Deep Thoughts, exclusive access to Deep Thoughts video footage, bonus episodes and more perks by visiting us on Patreon.
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
Hi, I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts about Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? Today, I will be sharing my deep thoughts about Muppets from Space with my sister, emily Guy Birkin, and with you. So let's dive in. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we Come over, think with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. And what do you remember about Muppets from Space?
Speaker 2:So I know that you introduced me to Muppets from Space. I can remember you had it on DVD. I feel like it's when you were still living in Chicago, but I don't know for sure. I remember immediately falling in love with Pepe the King prawn. Well done, new Muppet character, well done. I cannot remember if you told me you would smack me like a bad, bad donkey before, after I had seen it, and I remember that being like kind of surprised that it's not better known Like people don't really talk about it in terms of like the Muppet canon.
Speaker 2:So I mean, obviously this is a Muppet movie after Jim Henson passed away, but he passed away in like the late 80s, early 90s and this is from 1999. That's right. And people do talk about Muppet Christmas Carol because I see, every Christmas people will talk about it and I wonder if it's because it's not a seasonal movie. But it is an underrated gem for reals and something I've been trying to get my kids to appreciate as much as I do. It's not a tradition yet, but I'm trying to make it a tradition that we watch it on Christmas Day each year. So that's what I remember about this movie. So tell me, why are we talking about it today?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So you remember a lot of the great things we are talking about this movie because, in addition to it being a really deeply underrated movie, when my daughter was really little, like really little, this movie was on repeat constantly. She saw it, I don't know, 100 times before she was four. As you and I have been thinking about this project and just grappling with the ways in which pop culture informs and shapes who we are really thinking about that and the things that I choose to share with her and choose not to, and so I've been thinking a little bit about what maybe slipped through because I was like, oh, it's the Muppets, it's okay. So that's kind of what's at stake for me is that I'm like this was one that was a little unexamined because it was just so much fun, so I wanted to maybe take some time and examine it. Yeah, so I'm going to catch our listeners up if you haven't seen it, or if you haven't seen it recently.
Speaker 1:Based on like one line in like an old old Muppet movie about Gonzo essentially being from space, this whole movie that spins out the idea that Gonzo is in fact an alien.
Speaker 1:His alien brethren are trying to reach him and they made contact with him through, of course, ridiculous means like his cat and alphabet cereal, which is like cat and crunch but shaped like letters, and it spells out things for him.
Speaker 1:And then he gets struck by lightning I'm putting quotes around that and like has this vision where he meets cosmic space fish who are highly evolved beings and speak with Indian English accents, I don't know. And they let him know that his people are trying to contact him and anyway, that was extended warranty, right, got it. And so he ends up getting kidnapped by a government agency that's in charge of trying to assess the threat of alien attack, and then the Muppets rescue him, the other Muppets rescue him and they end up going to the beach where they meet his family, who are all like Gonzo with the nose, and they like the same kind of music and they like shooting people out of cannons, and so, like, all of a sudden, all of his works make sense. So that's like the nutshell of what happens in Muppets from Space, and some of the reasons that I love it are that, you know, it's a movie that really addresses the idea of chosen family, which I'm just a sucker for stories about, chosen family Chosen family stories yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it's just it, just like strikes us particular nerve that I just, I just love chosen family stories, but it also talks about sort of belonging and there is something about like where Gonzo's quirks come from. The Muppets are special to me, to us, I don't know, you know, I'm talking about this today because of my kid and having watched this with her when she was tiny, I don't know if you know this story, but when dad was alive he would tell the story of like before you were born. So I'm like teeny, tiny, like maybe two, so like mom and dad are still together and they dad says like he was watching the Muppets show, which was primetime TV in the like 70s, which models my mind, it wasn't exactly for kids.
Speaker 1:It's true, it wasn't, it's true. So that's watching, watching the Muppet show, and I like crawled over and sat on his lap and just watch with him as a toddler in, you know, with a trained attention that he hadn't seen on other things, and so it was sort of like a special memory for him as well. So the Muppets are special in many, many ways, and so that this idea of like both knowing where one comes from but also sort of choosing the chosen family, it just warms the cockles of my heart. Whatever those are, whatever they are, they're warm because of Muppets. And then in rewatching it and thinking about, like what is getting into my kid's head when she's teeny tiny?
Speaker 1:There's some stuff in there that's not so great. Like in our last episode of Talking about Twilight, we brought up the Bechdel test, alison Bechdel's sort of. Are there at least two female characters? Do they both have names? Do they talk to one another about something other than a boy or a man? And this passes, but just barely right. There's Miss Piggy and there's Shelly Snipes, who is the actual human, not Muppet, like journalist who.
Speaker 1:Miss Piggy tries to or does, take her, take her job. They talk to one another but it's an argument because Piggy has stolen Shelly's job and so they fight. They actually come to Fisticuffs and Shelly wins, but Piggy uses the Muppet Labs mist that makes the person who receives it do whatever Miss Piggy says, she says I love this stuff. So the gender stuff, like there's very little. There's just this very little representation in this movie. The one other female character doesn't have a name. It's Kathy Griffith's security guard from inside the government facility who animal effectively sexually assaults, but then she ends up liking it and becoming one of those clingy girlfriends, which is like I have one word for it Ew, ew.
Speaker 2:It's the revenge of the nerds trope, in that all they need is to see how good at sex this unattractive person is, and then they'll fall in love with them.
Speaker 1:Kind of. It's kind of that. Well, I mean, this is even slightly grosser because animals invisible when it starts Like he has the invisibility.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's right, Right on. I had forgotten about that.
Speaker 1:So first, like Kathy Griffin is acting against nothing, just like sort of like jumping around as if he's like tweaking her Gosh.
Speaker 2:I had forgotten that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, toast or something, and then they disappear for most of the movie and then come back and she's like chasing him, like no, I need you. So, yes, revenge of the nerds, and also like almost worse. I mean not because we don't actually see any like in revenge of the nerds. It's clear they actually have intercourse which is straight up rape.
Speaker 2:I think Well, yeah, that's rape by fraud, or I think they got something like that yeah.
Speaker 1:And this is the Muppets. So that's not implied, certainly not on screen, and it's not even implied. I mean the implication that I got is that there was some kissing, but still it's yucky. He was invisible when it started, which was clearly not consenting, at least from what we saw on screen. So that's gross. That's gross.
Speaker 1:And the other thing that, like the negative thing that I'm left with as I, as I'm rewatching this and thinking about what have I put into my kid's head, is that as much as I love chosen family stories, there's something that's like not quite right about Gonzo's chosen family, right, like especially. I mean I love dramatic irony. You and I talked about that in Lightbringers, about how much I love dramatic irony, and there's a bit of dramatic irony in this in the way that Snufflepigus was dramatic irony, like we and Gonzo know the truth but the other Muppets don't and they're convinced he's just crazy, right when he tells the story about the cosmic fish which we just saw. They had Indian accents, they were lethal, but they don't believe him. They think in fact they make jokes about. At one point Kermit says what's he doing up there? And Rizzo says his cereal told him to watch the stars and one of the other Muppets says talk about whole grain and nuts, which is a funny little pun. But they make jokes like that, about how he's crazy, the whole movie.
Speaker 1:Even after they've rescued him from government lab where they were going to kill him and dissect him as an alien, they're still like he says we got to go, now we can go to the beach and meet my family. And they're like don't you think you've taken this a little too far? And he's like what? You still don't believe me. And Gonzo, I mean too Gonzo's credit. Gonzo's like stop the bus, I'll go on my own, I'll find my own way. And Kermit says it doesn't matter what we believe. If you believe you have to go and meet your alien brethren at Cape Doom, then I say we're going to the beach. And although the Muppets chime in to the beach and great music plays and whatever, it's fun, but on this, rewatch this like 100 something, rewatch. I'm like, wow, gonzo deserves better. Yeah, he deserves better than like. I mean I guess we'll go if you want to go.
Speaker 2:You know, you talking about that brings up to the villain. If there's a villain is the human government agent, because there's a human agent. And then, yes, jeff Tambo, jeff Tambo, and then his bear assistant. Yeah, one of the things I love.
Speaker 1:K Edward Singer. Ed is the Jeffrey Tambo's name. Oh, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the things I appreciate about. Oh, I just realized it's J Edgar Hoover, j Edward Singer, it's K Edgar.
Speaker 1:Hoover.
Speaker 2:Okay, edward Singer, yeah, k Edgar, so Singer Sewing Machine yeah, only seen this movie like 10 times. Anyway, at the end he like is freaking out, saying like don't laugh at me and he is single-minded in what he's doing because people laugh at him and he becomes like he is threatening violence at the end because people are laughing at him. And like his don't laugh at me is like both hysterical in terms of like he sounds hysterical, like he's unhinged, but also like a bit threatening, more than a bit. Again, muppet Movie and the reason why he couldn't use the bear took the batteries out of the gun. The cartridge yeah, the cartridge.
Speaker 1:So it was the ammunition. Please load weapon yeah.
Speaker 2:So, but I'm just thinking he occupies a similar space that Gonzo does.
Speaker 1:Completely, which, yes, completely. The movie makers acknowledge that actually because there's the first time he freaks out because he thinks they're laughing at him. They're not laughing at him. He says no nostrils, how do you smell? And Rizzo says terrible, believe me, I'm his roommate. And then everybody laughs and he says that don't laugh at me. And then he, like, calms himself down and he says I'm sorry, but do you know what it's like to be laughed at? And Gonzo's like yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, and he says or to be called names like freak boy or weirdo, and then Gonzo's like yup. And then he says or paranoid, delusional, psychopath, and Gonzo's like oh, got me there, I've forgotten that. Yeah. So the movie makers actually very clearly say, like this guy's like oh, he's a weirdo, but he takes it too far because he gets violent.
Speaker 2:But it's no, it's hard to compare because Jeffrey Tambor's character is at work and his boss is saying, like we can't waste resources on this, but there's also, like, there's this sense of like. Well, what is the real difference between Gonzo and Tambor in that, like I mean, gonzo does have supportive quote, unquote family, because they do love him and they do want to help him out, but they, you know, they call him crazy, they manipulate him, they, you know all of those things. And Tambor, like the most supportive person in his life is the bear.
Speaker 1:Banjo. Yeah, who's actually very supportive, very supportive? The AAB, setster, the AAB. Oh, here's your platinum buns from our account paper.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so and that's so. It's just it's interesting to like what is it? What is the story trying to tell? And not to overthink it too much. But something that I think is interesting is like, what role do we play in people who are outcasts in our society? And there has been, over the past 24 years since the movie came out, there has been a rise in particularly disaffected young white men who feel like outcasts and turn to violence. And on the you know, when you're talking about folks who call themselves in cells, you know, I know it is not our responsibility to make them feel comfortable. It is not our responsibility to make them feel like they don't need to be laughed at. But then, on the other side of it, like what you're talking about just within the film, like how do we support, how do we show up for the people that we love in a way that is not alienating?
Speaker 1:Right kind of intended.
Speaker 2:Thank you for noticing, because I did not realize.
Speaker 1:So there's an interesting, there's an interesting tidbit that I'm going to throw in here to kind of problematize the questions that you're asking. So, as I was thinking about this movie and I was reading up on it and one of the writers of the screenplay went through several revisions and an earlier version was all parody, parody, parody and black and like whatever and independent state actually is in there, which I didn't realize because I didn't see, I saw this movie first.
Speaker 2:I actually I just just to the audience knows this year, like in the past few months, tracy said to me like I just got that release me thing because I just saw independent states. I was like what?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the, the, the, the Muppet like doctor, gets thrown against the glass and goes release me yeah, and that was, that was the the the, the, the, the alien in them, and I, I just didn't, I didn't get it, I didn't know what that was about, anyway, anyway, anyway. So there were even more parodies in an earlier version of the script and in an earlier version of the script, the ending. The aliens had been watching old Muppet show move Muppet show transmissions and so they styled themselves after Gonzo because they thought he was like whatever the pinnacle. But it turned out like. When they removed their Gonzo masks they were like hideous creatures.
Speaker 2:They were not they were not his brother.
Speaker 1:They were not in fact, his brother in, and the and the movie maker or the script writer who who wrote that ending really dislikes the ending that we got, cause he's like they're not his family. The Muppets are his family. Obviously, I'm adding to, when I just read this I didn't actually hear him talk about it, but I think there's something really interesting in that, like problematization. I'm going to go with that and say that's a word, that, that, that, that this your English major writer.
Speaker 1:I can see whatever I want. The script writer was like he hates it, he hates this ending. He's saying like that those aliens are not his family, the Muppets are his family, which is you know. It's really interesting because even the movie makers who did give us the ending we got on film said the same thing yeah, gonzo chose to stay. Gonzo chooses to stay. Yeah, right.
Speaker 1:Gonzo chooses to stay, yeah. And so it's fascinating to me that this fellow Masiano, I think is his name was so put out by the ending that was given, because ultimately, in my mind, it's kinder. The one that we got is kinder to Gonzo, because he gets to choose.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but he knows where he's from because in the beginning of this movie this movie starts. Actually, I've seen it saw some critics say the best scene in the movie is the very first one, which is a dream sequence where Gonzo is running to catch the Ark and Noah is knowing.
Speaker 2:That's Marie Abraham Okay.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that actor's name, so good job. And he's putting Muppet animals onto his Ark two by two, and Gonzo's like oh, I almost missed it. And Noah's like what are you? And Gonzo's like I don't know, put me down, it's a whatever. And he says what do you mean? What is your species? And Gonzo says I guess there's only one of me. And Noah's response is then you are close to the Ark door and then you open the door again to give him an umbrella. It's like my sense of humor, anyway. So where was I going? And then, so that's in the dream sequence.
Speaker 1:But then even in the real world we see Gonzo just feeling deeply alone. We see a bunch of photos on the mantle of the Muppets with their families Kermit and his nephew Robin, robin I started to say Robin. I'm like no, that's Batman, yes, both are Robin. So Kermit and Robin and Miss Piggy and the other pigs from Pigs in Space, and Fawzi and his mom. And then there's this picture of Gonzo by himself on the beach, really zoomed out. And so there's this deep and profound loneliness that we see in Gonzo, despite the fact that he's surrounded by this chosen family. And in my mind the ending we got where the family's there and they didn't abandon him right. They've been searching for him. He got lost, it was an accident. It doesn't repair the damage, but it does feel comforting so that he can choose to stay with his chosen family and know that his quirks are not him being crazy, it's just how he's built.
Speaker 2:It strikes me that this movie is a really good metaphor for transracial adoption, because I'm thinking about, like you, had a friend growing up who was adopted by a white family and she was one of several kids who were adopted, who were not and not all of the adopted children were white and the parents seemed like the very, very sweet, good, well-meaning they were mentioned, they were yeah. Yeah, but I just I remember. But they also didn't know how to yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the lack of connection to one's origins when we live in a society that makes it very clear that our origins, that skin differences, are important in our society.
Speaker 1:And hair and everything. I think there's also a sense like they didn't know how. My friend's parents didn't know how to help her navigate the racism directed at her, because they had never had to navigate it, because they had white skin, and I think that's kind of so. I think you're right in that, in that Gonzo's chosen family also make fun of him, for the things that we learn in this movie are normal in his culture of origin, right Like the getting blown out of a cannon is their most ceremonious of ceremonies, which is his like he does that on them. Like all the way back from the Muppet show from the 70s when I was a toddler, on Dad's lab, gonzo was being shot out of a cannon. And it's not just that he's weird, that's a cultural thing that he didn't even realize was cultural, and I think there's something powerful in that, in that reality.
Speaker 2:Well, it's also the ending we have gives Gonzo agency. So he did not have agency in terms of getting lost from the rest of his family, in terms of his being, him being a whatever and the only one, like that was not anything he had any control over. And if we had gotten the ending, the original ending, where the aliens simply admired him and were not his family, there's, he still doesn't have the agency to be like I choose to embrace this family or I choose to embrace the family that has raised me and that's that I feel like is really important. I mean, just with Kathy Griffin, the lack of agency there, but it's. It is partially also because it is a kid's movie, like it is, I think, important to show children the importance of having the ability to choose and the joy in choosing, even if it means giving up something else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know I'm this 20, almost 25 year old movie, my movie right, but no-transcript. If I were able to rewrite it or somehow tweak it I wish it had been a little less either or If they make it very clear the aliens are like we got to go. It's time to beat feet. The main guy says it really does.
Speaker 1:That's the implication. That is definitely the implication. But I would love it if it was like we just bought a lake house on the moon. We stop it down every other year or so and we visit you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that you didn't notice, I don't know, we'll send a spaceship so you can come to the reunions every year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, something so that it didn't have to be all or nothing, because I think that's part of what doesn't feel good about the chosen family, of choosing the chosen family in this case. Yeah, I mean, I believe that Rizzo and Kermit love Gonzo. I believe that they do, and also they don't necessarily understand him. They don't understand him and they also kind of look down on him a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, something that this brings up for me is the fact that they say to him like you still don't believe me, I am reminded of, and this is a conversation you and I had about a friend of yours who I'm bringing up a bunch of your friends for this episode, but you had gone to Target or shopping with a friend of yours who was a black woman and there was someone following you and you were in your early mid-20s, I think. I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was in Chicago. The person thought we worked there. She thought she was like, where do I find? And we looked at each other and we looked at her and we're like we don't work here. And yeah, I was in my early, yeah, mid-20s and my friend was like really upset and she was sure that it was racism, because that woman, the person who asked us where to find stuff, who assumed we worked there, like didn't believe that we would be friends as a white woman and a black woman, and I didn't see it that way.
Speaker 2:Well, I remember you telling me that story At the time how you you were just like, no, I don't think that's it. And you, as you've gotten older and like, kind of worked on anti-racism and and come grown in expectation or experience. Rather, you have been like, oh, I should listen to my friends. She's had these experiences, she knows what she's talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's been black her whole life. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so what? That I'm reminded of that story you told me, with the, with Kermit and Piggy and all of them not believing Gonzo because it feels. It feels a little bit like how, being shielded by by being white and and you know, just the culture of white supremacy, which is partially to assume individual problems rather than systemic, is kind of recreated in that, like you're obviously the weird one, gonzo. So why would we believe you, even with this preponderance of evidence in front of us, which is also why, why this kind of reminds me as a as a like, a parable of transracial adoption. Yeah, and you know, I have heard, every person in my life who I have seen, who has been a part of a transracial adoption, has been a deeply caring, deeply committed person who very much wants the best for their children. But that is not the case all the time. There are definitely those who who adopt thinking that their child is not as good as they are. Yeah, yeah, and it's.
Speaker 2:And then also I had a dear friend years ago who unfortunately passed away a few years ago, but she had a little sister.
Speaker 2:She was Catholic, she was one of, I think, six children and her parents adopted a Native American girl through the church. It was something that my friend as a child at the time I think she was like 12 or 13 and her little sister was like three or four and they ended up sharing a room and there was there was a great deal of love there, but they they were told, because this was like the sixties, like just love them like your own and it'll be fine, and gave no paths for this little girl to know anything about her heritage, her culture, her family of origin. And that was very much intentional, yes, yes. And so my friend hadn't done anything wrong but also knew how she had failed her sister and she had tried very hard to be the right person, to be her sister, to love her and care for her. And the parents it's not that they did anything wrong either. They really were trying to help and they were told by the auction agency.
Speaker 2:They did the best they could with what they had. This is what you're supposed to do. So and I'm reminded a little bit of that of, like you know, but I really want to, you know, do X, Y and Z. Oh, but that's not our culture. Well, but so you know, this is Gonzo. I really want to be blown out of a cannon, Like, but why?
Speaker 1:You know one of the things about the movie too, that as I'm looking at it with this, with this lens on, at the end, when he thinks he's going to go home, like go back to the other planet with the, with the alien brethren, and he's saying goodbye, he says to Kermit you're the best friend a guy could have. And I was struck this time watching it, that Kermit is Gonzo's best friend. I don't think Gonzo's Kermit's best friend. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure Kermit's best friend is, but just in the way that he, you know, like the Muppets are watching TV and Gonzo goes down to the studio and like comes on the show and Rizzo's like, do you want to go down now or wait for the commercial break? And Kermit's like let's go now. Yeah, this is Sensity. Has this obligation to like clean up after Gonzo.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's. It's made very clear that he's the dad of of boarding house, because it's his job to clean up after everyone, and part of his exasperation is that, like I, got to clean up after Gonzo now too, and so you know, in some ways I don't know that Kermit has a best friend, because he is the de facto dad.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's true.
Speaker 1:And he's also Fawzi's best friend. Yeah, and he's also you know what I mean Like yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and he's the straight man I mean. So that's part of it is just how comedy works. Yeah, I do like the Rizzo. I feel like I'm not gonna say he's a better friend to Gonzo, but the friendship between Rizzo and Gonzo feels very genuine in a way, and it's been a little while since last time I saw it. But the like Rizzo is, I mean he's he's. I've never actually seen what's the movie that they named him after.
Speaker 1:It's like taxis and what I thought it was from Greece, no, no, no, there's a it's the I'm walking here guy, okay, okay, anyway.
Speaker 2:So he and he was not introduced until Muppetsake, manhattan was the first time we met Rizzo, because there's a character named Rizzo Ratso, I think. Yeah, anyway, he is like very genuine and gives all that he's capable of giving. Yeah, you know, in a very generous way and he does it.
Speaker 1:He has a conscience right. So like from the beginning, pepe, who this is his first movie. He he appeared on a TV show before this, but this is his first movie where he has they. Rizzo says he listens to voices and does what they say. And then Pepe has an idea and then through the fan they say if you build it, we will come.
Speaker 1:And God's is like what build what? I just a joke with you. Okay, anyway, rizzo is like we have to tell him right, and so they're gonna tell him and Pepe's gonna tell him. And then got to like rushes past them and Pepe turns to Rizzo, goes you should have told him, I said you, I met you. So Rizzo is like he has a conscience, though at the same time, because it actually even in the jacuzzi. When Rizzo sees how like excited Gonzo is for the alien brethren that Rizzo knows aren't coming because it was him and Pepe, he says we have to tell him. That's when Pepe says the bad, bad donkey, you on. So like Rizzo has much more of a conscience when it comes to Gonzo than Pepe does, for instance, and you know he, he goes after him in the with the government he sees there's something not okay with these men in black who come to get Gonzo and say they're from the alien protection agency.
Speaker 1:So he goes with him and then, in fact, when he escapes, shawshank style, from the medical research and all the rats are going like toward the exit, he goes the other way and they say where you go in. This is the way out. He says I got to go help my friend right and Bubba's, like the kids, got moxie. One of the rest is like moxie, what is moxie? I just love there's so many quotable lines from this movie.
Speaker 2:I. So one of the things I love and I feel like this is also a good like parallel with Gonzo and his alien brothers is so the Bubba and the other lab rats end up coming like they turn around and like, okay, we're gonna follow Rizzo. He's he's our brother and he's helping his friends. Who's his brother, so we're gonna help him. And I feel like there's there's kind of a parallel to there as well as, like you know, there's there's there's found family, there's born family, and then there's there's the fact that's, in either case, you can, you, you don't leave anyone behind except for Bunsen and Baker, who could let me have a convenience store because they were getting snacks.
Speaker 1:Okay, from now on, yeah, yeah, and there's, and something about to the like, the shared, the shared trauma, the shared experience with the lab rat, the other lab rats and that you know that was part of what I think had the other rats go after, because they had been through a lot together. In the montage of the research. You know, there's mazes and force machines and yeah, and then there's like the rat poison and cheese but like he gets punched if you ask for the cheese.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just so silly it is so silly yeah it's, it's a, it's a joy of a movie and it's interesting to like kind of dig into this deeper stuff with it because it is there and some of it is the, the, the assumptions that we make. So you know, you're, you're mentioning the, like the Bechdel test. I can remember as a kid being a little bit bothered by the fact that Piggy was the only girl muppet, because I wasn't sure what Janice was supposed to be like. I thought, because the eyelashes in the long hair, I'm like I think she's supposed to be a girl but I can't tell right and so, and I remember that being bothered by that and because she's clearly not a character we're meant to want to emulate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so, and you know I miss Piggy is phenomenal. I love miss Piggy, but I also, you know, there are aspects to her personality because she's the only one that are problematic, because that's the only female characterization we get totally, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:I mean in this movie she's like the first thing time we see her is like her figuring out what to wear and she's like, right, it makes her look very vain and then, you know, I mean she makes a joke of it. But when she comes to tell the news that she's just she's, she has gotten tortured the information out of one of the black men in black that he's been that guns has been caught, cannot by government agency, and she's like comes in to tell the news and she's like bursting with excitement that I've got great news everyone. And that Kermit's like how is that great news? And she's like because I got the story, I got the story. And at one point earlier than that, like when she says this is wonderful news, she breaks the fourth wall and she looks at the camera and says you think Ted Coppel never gets excited, like, and so the movie makers like acknowledge it and try to like normalize it a little bit.
Speaker 2:But you're right, she's the only female Muppet and so she has she's carrying too much weight, mm-hmm, like I will say and I feel like this was in 1999, though, like we got to update some things, because older Muppet movies it was all about her trying to get Kermit. That's yes, that's what I, and so this like all right, let's give her a career, right, that's right?
Speaker 1:right, he's feminism because, because she and in fact, in this one there's only one small reference to the fact that she has the hots for Kermit, which is when they're on the bus. At one point she says I love it when you take charge, mm-hmm, but it's like, it's like a throwaway, it's not actually a part of the story, it's not part of the plot, whereas it you're right, in previous movies that was her soul plot line mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:So so you know, I appreciate that. And though the I love the boy, you think Ted Coppel doesn't get excited. I love that line, so, but at the same time, like gosh, I mean like they brought us Pepe, who is just a perfect character and so quotable, so quotable it might be filled with chocolate, okay. So I just, I would love to see any of the white men who are taking over Muppets to, you know, have some female preferably nonwhite female writers in the room to help create some Muppets.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it could. It feels like it wouldn't have even been that I mean introduced all those new rats for medical research, like a couple of them could have been girl rats, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know it's yeah it's and so, and then all of the female actors who are in it. So we've got Kathy Griffin, we've got Andy McDowell playing Shelly Snipes, we've got what's her name, who was in Dawson's Creek? Katie Katie Holmes. Yeah, very briefly, and that was stunt casting, that was. That was like hey, it's Dawson's Creek.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. I mean they even say they reference Dawson, and that's another moment they break the fourth wall. Yeah, where Katie Holmes says I wish Dawson were here. This is like one of those things that I've owned in his sci-fi movies. And then Pepe or the other guy I can't think of the guy the purple Muppets name you say but this is a Muppet movie, it's much more realistic and romantic. Okay, yes yes, yes, yes, and so this is a Muppet movie.
Speaker 2:So all the female characters who are played by actresses are humans, are like objectified. So Kathy Griffin and Katie Holmes kind of are in that in Roman. And if that were, if there were other female actors like humans play, it would not be a big deal, right? Kathy Griffin is always going to be that. That bit's always going to be gross. And then Chilly Snipes is not about like it's not objectification, but it is a very negative view of women.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's like one or two, just they don't have any lines. But, like in the bit where the Muppets are stacked too high and wearing lab coats to try to find a doctor or doctor, they're talking, it's a, it's a woman in the lab, yeah, yeah, who has stepped out of a door? When they're like, oh, doctor, doctor, just a couple of doctors in the hallway and he's tiny little heads to get the lab coat. It's such classic. It's like that gag has been used just so many times and yet it's so funny. Yeah, I don't know. And some in the Muppet universe like I guess it's just normal, like I mean Banjo is a bear and he's a bear.
Speaker 1:Well, just has a job. That's the receptionist.
Speaker 2:That's one of the things that is so charming about the Muppet universe is that Muppets are just part of the world that you live in. You know it's, it's and that's. I don't know Like how common that is.
Speaker 1:I mean, or was prior to Jim Henson doing this, yeah, I mean, I feel like we see it in animated stuff a lot, yeah, but yeah, but that may be derivative.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because, well, and I'm wondering if it's because, like you know, coming from ventriloquism, yeah, maybe, so that's a good point, but but yeah, it's, it's. It's something that I love about the Muppets is that it's just accepted, yep.
Speaker 1:So, before we wrap up because we've been talking for a minute, a long minute I just the one other thing that I want to name, a reason that I love this movie, is the soundtrack. It's all like 1970s funk and rhythm and blues and it's just.
Speaker 2:Awesome, I mean it's so good.
Speaker 1:And like the. There's the when Gonzo's on the lawnmow excuse me, there's a scene where he's like mowing, mowing a message in the lawn, because that's what the cosmic fish child would do. But then later, when he drives it again, the same song comes back and it's just Fantastic. Like I want to listen to that music all the time you can, you know. And like there's the big dance. It's like there's this big dance scene in the beginning.
Speaker 2:Well, everyone's getting ready in the morning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're getting ready and they're, like you know, bathing and whatever, like waiting in line at the for the one bathroom, apparently in this boarding house and, like Kermit just says, it really well like way to get down with your bad selves everybody.
Speaker 2:I mean, if only all of our mornings could start that way.
Speaker 1:For real. I actually genuinely believe my life would be better if I could just start every morning with brick house.
Speaker 2:Oh, she's my to my today. Yeah, yeah, it's a, it is a unique film. I mean like it's a Muppet movie. So that's, that's part of it, you know, and and like Muppet movies are always very quotable, but I feel like the soundtrack, this is before Hollywood.
Speaker 2:I might be wrong, but I feel like there's a lot right now of movies using nostalgia soundtracks very intentionally, in a way that is either ironic or you know. So I'm thinking of, like first Guardians of the Galaxy, when Star Lord is, you know, kicking aliens around to the sound of I can't remember what, the, what that song is called, but you know, and it's just he's dancing around and it doesn't make sense. So there is this like a big push, I feel like in a lot of movies, and it's not just that. So there's another thing that you see happen is they'll take a song from the 80s or 90s and like slow it down, which they did with the, the recent Batman movie with Robert Pattinson. They took a Nirvana song, to use that way, and I don't feel like I remember seeing this quite like it prior to Muppets in Space, from Space. And I may be wrong, I may be, I may be misremembering.
Speaker 1:I think maybe it's just that now it's music that you grew up with. Until it's true.
Speaker 2:So it's different. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so you're noticing it differently, like I have a feeling there was music that was aimed at boomers, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But we were younger, but did they do it in ironic ways, in ways that like unexpected ways? That's kind of what I'm feeling like, because I know, like, stand by me One of the things dad loved about it was the soundtrack, and you know it was a soundtrack of his childhood because it was a period piece. But I'm trying to think of, like, if there were movies that used a soundtrack that didn't quote, unquote, fit, which is what I feel like happens now a lot, I don't know, I don't know. So, listeners, please let us know if you can think of any movies prior to 99. I bet didn't. This. We would love to know, yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, so quick synthesis yes, so we're going to start with the Children's Room Space, underrated movie, underrated gem, some problematic gender stuff, but overall a really sweet and charming story about chosen family, and with a great soundtrack and some very quotable lines, oh my goodness. So do you know? Do you know, m? What Stupid shit You're going to share deep thoughts with.
Speaker 2:So next, next time, I'm going to share you, share with you, some deep thoughts about the princess bride. So I have, I have many thoughts about the princess bride.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we are going to have fun storm in that castle. Oh, yes, yes, all right, well, I will look forward to seeing you then. Do we have a thing? Do we have a timeline? So you know, come over, think it with us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, come over, think it with us.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetekcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Deep thoughts is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. You can help keep us overthinking. Support us through our Patreon with a link in the show notes. Leave a positive review so others can find us and share the show with your people. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?