Party Time! Excellent! [Extended guitar solo]
On this week’s episode of Deep Thoughts, Emily revisits the most important cultural touchstone of the late 20th century: Wayne’s World. In addition to introducing an entire generation to Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody, this film presented a surprisingly complex characterization of Tia Carrere’s Cassandra and taught us that Milwaukee is the only major American city to have three Socialist mayors. While not everything holds up to 30 years of hindsight–the film doesn’t pass the Bechdel test, leans into the crazy ex-girlfriend trope, and makes a joke about police committing sexual assault–this remarkably sunny, silly, and sweet film still has a lot to offer modern audiences.
Exsqueeze me? Baking powder? Why haven’t you started listening already?
Content warning: Mentions of domestic violence, discussion of sexualized police violence
Mentioned in this episode
https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/waynes-world-1992
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
Party Time! Excellent! [Extended guitar solo]
On this week’s episode of Deep Thoughts, Emily revisits the most important cultural touchstone of the late 20th century: Wayne’s World. In addition to introducing an entire generation to Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody, this film presented a surprisingly complex characterization of Tia Carrere’s Cassandra and taught us that Milwaukee is the only major American city to have three Socialist mayors. While not everything holds up to 30 years of hindsight–the film doesn’t pass the Bechdel test, leans into the crazy ex-girlfriend trope, and makes a joke about police committing sexual assault–this remarkably sunny, silly, and sweet film still has a lot to offer modern audiences.
Exsqueeze me? Baking powder? Why haven’t you started listening already?
Content warning: Mentions of domestic violence, discussion of sexualized police violence
Mentioned in this episode
https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/waynes-world-1992
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I will be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1992 Saturday Night Live movie Wayne's World with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, and with you. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come over, think with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Speaker 1:All right, trace, I I'm pretty sure I know that you've seen this. I mean, it's just such a cultural icon. But tell me what you know. Remember when you saw Wayne's World?
Speaker 2:I must have seen it in 92. I was 16. So yeah, I know I saw it when it was out and yeah, I remember. I mean I just remember it fondly. And then there are like little moments that have become like touchstones, like like anytime I've gotten a little bit of money that like I haven't expected, like the first paycheck from a job, or like the first time I sold a painting or whatever, I got $5,000. I got $5,000. Or whatever, I got $5,000. I got $5,000.
Speaker 2:And I'm trying to think like Bohemian Rhapsody, like I don't think I would know that song if it weren't for Wayne's World. And I mean even some of the stupid little things that like a sphincter says what Just like? Just all of those like honestly pretty dumb moments that were hilarious to 16-year-old Tracy. I just thought they were so fun. I mean even there's that one scene where he's with his girlfriend and he's like eye, and then the other and going camera one, camera two, camera one, camera two.
Speaker 2:Like there are these moments like I have zero sense of what the actual plot was. I have no memory. It's not really a plot so like, but in my mind it's just like a string of like just silly funny things that I remember with fondness and that's pretty much all I got, although I was just at a friend's house and I was said that we were going to about to record about this and my friend said maybe it was in the second one I think it must've been in the second one where there was like a girl version of Garth who had like a like a Unix coding book, who had like a like a unix coding book, and my friend was like I was like, oh, it's for me, he's a coder. So it's this very disjointed like highlights of things. That made me laugh is what I remember about wayne's world. So I have to ask you, why are we looking at it Like, what's at stake here with Wayne's World for you?
Speaker 1:So I saw it in the theater. I can remember very vividly. I went to see it with my grade school best friend, Jen. I remember her mom dropped us off, we got ice cream first and then we went to see the film. So we were 13, or I was 13. She probably was a little younger than me and I felt very grown up because I was going to see a movie with my friend and not with a parent, and so this is a film that I thought of as being like I'm one of the cool kids now it's so funny. And then there were like references that I didn't necessarily get, and so I. Specifically there is a scene where Wayne is driving fast and he's pulled over by the actor, Robert Patrick, who played the Terminator in Terminator 2.
Speaker 2:The cop from the Terminator and he shows a picture of Edward.
Speaker 1:Furlong and says have you seen this boy? And I remember Jen and I both looked at each other going like what, what, what Do you understand that? I don't understand that. Neither of us had seen the film. We had no idea it was no clue. Neither of us had seen the film, we had no idea, it was no clue.
Speaker 1:So a lot of my kind of catchphrases. So I tend to think in movie quotes. For instance, when I was teaching, it would always happen. I would set something up and I would say to the kids like okay, we're gonna do this, this, this and this and never fail. There was always a kid who would be like what are we doing? And in my head, this is not from Wayne's World, this is from the Big Lebowski. I would be like you're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie. So that's kind of. And so I have similar sorts of things where my brain will immediately go to like I got $5,000 or I will, I'll do exquisite baking powder. And like, anytime I see a package of condoms, it's like ribbed for her pleasure. Ew, a package of condoms, it's like ribbed for her pleasure. So this is part of, like the mental furniture of my mind, you know, like mike myers has he's, he's got a fairly moved in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he lives, he lives in your mind. Rent free, rent free. He's got a fairly significant Wayne's World party time, excellent, all right, so. All right. So Mike Myers is living in your head. That's why we're talking about it today.
Speaker 1:Yes, and similar to what you were talking about with revisiting Monty Python and the Holy Grail. This was also I kind of wanted, something that wasn't going to feel like I was ruining my own childhood.
Speaker 2:So we're taking a little bit of a break from childhood A little bit, although there's still some.
Speaker 1:There's still some deep stuff I need to talk about. Okay, but part of the reason why and I don't know if I remembered this when I decided to do it do it for the show but part of the reason why it was beloved is because it is good hearted in a lot of ways. There's, there's not a mean bone in its body. This, this in this film, like it's very sunny in a way that is lovely to kind of revisit. That you know, this is, this is humor that, for the most part, does not make anyone the butt of the joke. There are some things that are, I think, would be done differently if the movie were made today, but for the most part it's. It's a very gentle movie in terms of how it finds its humor and it really did kind of give me a sense of like, how to be funny interpersonally. Also, how to like show, like satire, like ridiculousness, like there's the scene in the middle where they're like we'd never sell out and then like Pepsi, yeah, yeah. Then they hold up product placement after they say that.
Speaker 1:So that's. That's kind of where I'm coming from. I also part of what got me thinking about it is I've mentioned before on the show my family does a family movie night. We try to do it weekly. We don't often actually make it every week, but we take turns picking the film, and so I had been trying to think of films that I wanted to share with the kids, and this was one, and so that was another reason why I'd been thinking about it, and actually we had a family movie night two nights ago and watched it together. So that was pretty, it was pretty fun and it was funny, because my youngest was like I don't want to watch a movie and then at the end he's like I was wrong. I enjoyed that, but I don't think it was appropriate for kids my age.
Speaker 2:I love it when my daughter tells me that it makes me laugh. I don't think that was appropriate for me. When my kid uses the word appropriate at me, it makes me laugh, anyway. Okay. Well, I'd love to hear like zero sense of any kind of plot. So remind me of that. And also like, lay it on me, lay the analysis on me, like where are we going with this?
Speaker 1:Okay, so the plot such as it is, because this was a SNL sketch. This was only the second time that they made a movie. The first one was the Blues Brothers, which had been like 10 years before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was a while, yeah Was it only 10 years yeah because it was early 80s. Between 82 to 92? Something like that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, okay, and it is the most successful Saturday Night Live movie ever made. So the sketch was Mike Myers had created the Wayne Campbell character long before he even came to SNL and he based him on people he kind of grew up with and knew who were like really into like hard rock and that sort of thing, and then with Dana Carvey, creating the character of Garth Algar and they had this idea of doing a cable access show out of his basement. So and that's one of the things that's really interesting about the film is that like it came in with the audience already knowing Wayne's World from Saturday Night Live.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So the story is Wayne and Garth are an indeterminate age it is not clear how old they are supposed to be because my kids asked and were like unclear. And we're like unclear. They are post high school, pre middle age. They still live at home with their parents. They live across the street from each other. They are lifelong best friends. They have this cable access show. They have three or four other guys who work on it with them. They do the cable access show out of their basements or out of Wayne's parents' basement. Them. They do the cable access show out of their basements or out of Wayne's parents' basement.
Speaker 1:There's a new character played by Rob Lowe. He plays Benjamin Kane, who is this very slick Chicago area TV producer. It's set in Aurora, illinois, which is outside of Chicago, and one of Benjamin's girlfriends it's clear that this is a casual thing is watching TV in bed with him at night and she stops and watches Wayne's World for a little bit and he's like people like this. She's like oh, it's hilarious, everybody loves it. So he asks his assistant Russell to tape it and he brings the show to a man named Noah Vanderhoff who has several arcades in the Chicagoland area called Noah's Arcade, and he clearly is just in it as a way to make money. He's not passionate about games or anything.
Speaker 1:So the plot, such as it is, is Benjamin manipulates Noah Vanderhoff into agreeing to sponsor Wayne's World, and then he then goes to Wayne and Garth and manipulates them into signing a contract and they each get $5,000. That basically sells Wayne's World to his production company, and then they lose control of it, but they're not aware of that. In the midst of this, wayne goes to a club that he goes to regularly, a hard rock club called the Gasworks, where he sees a band called Crucial Taunt, with the lead singer is Cassandra Wong, who is played by Tia Carrera, and he sees her and this is a consistent joke on Saturday Night Live. When Wayne or Garth would see a woman that they were smitten with, suddenly the song Dream Weaver would pipe in and there'd be sparkles around the woman.
Speaker 2:And a little bit of wind right, like it'd blow her hair Wind right.
Speaker 1:Like it would blow her hair. Yeah, Wayne, we have previously seen him looking at a Fender guitar that's very expensive, that he wants, and he like, turns to the camera and says it will be mine oh yes, it will be. And when he sees Cassandra, he goes she will be mine oh yes, she will be.
Speaker 2:That's one of the things. I have forgotten about it until you just just said that that's one of the. That's one of the mental furniture. It will be mine, oh yes.
Speaker 1:It's funny because my son actually said when that happened, he's like, isn't that kind of misogynistic? Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is, it is Parenting win, you're right.
Speaker 1:So that is like the loose structure of the plot. There's a number of like silly things that happen. Quote unquote. Plot is that Benjamin gives Wayne Engarth tickets and backstage passes to an Alice Cooper show in Milwaukee to get them out of the way so that he can try to make a move on Cassandra, and he's also offering to create a music video for her and her band. It's clear that he's interested in her, although she has shown no interest whatsoever in him. And there's other, I don't know, call them subplots. Wayne has an ex-girlfriend who is kind of obsessed with him, Stacey, who he calls a psycho-hose beast from hell, I think.
Speaker 2:She's problematic in my memory.
Speaker 1:She is yes, and one of the things that Wayne and Garth talk about is that Wayne doesn't have anything really to offer Cassandra compared to Benjamin, because he lives at home, he's got a well-paying job. He doesn't have a well-paying job Benjamin does. You know all of these different things? And so while they were at the Alice Cooper show, they happened to find out that a major record executive would be driving through Chicago on the same day that Cassandra is supposed to be filming her music video, and so that is part of the end of the plot. But none of that matters. It really doesn't matter. It's just a vehicle for silliness from beginning to end. So I want to talk. Let me start with the women, because we often start with. Gender Does not pass the Bechdel test.
Speaker 2:There's Cassandra and Stacey. If they talk about it to each other, it's only about women. Probably they don't talk to each other.
Speaker 1:They don't even talk to each other. Yeah, they don't it to each other, it's only about they don't talk to each other. Yeah, they don't talk to each other. And there is Noah Vanderhoff's wife is in the, and I believe, like we don't get her first name, but she's Mrs Vanderhoff. So she does have a name, but she doesn't talk to any women. She is played by Colleen Camp, who is Yvette in Clue. Oh, so she doesn't have a name, but she doesn't talk to any women. She is played by colleen camp, who was yvette in clue. Oh yeah, so that's.
Speaker 1:You know, that's how things were in 1992. You know it wouldn't have occurred to anyone that you needed to pass the Bechdel test. What's interesting, and what I did not know until I was doing research for this episode, is the director was Penelope Spheeris. She's a woman director. Was she a SNL alum? She knew Lorne Michaels. They were friends and she had actually never directed a feature-length film before. They were friends and she had actually never directed a feature length film before she had directed these like short documentaries about people in the hard rock scene.
Speaker 1:Oh, so they picked her to give sort of a like a gritty veritas to it, Kind of yeah, and I mean between that, and then she knew Lauren and Lauren was like, yeah, penelope can do it so interesting. Yeah, the biggest female part in the movie is Cassandra, played by Tia Carrera.
Speaker 2:I did not remember how likable she is Because I just remembered her being hot yeah, my recollection of her and I haven't seen it in years and years, but my recollection is like actually kind of agreeing with the like what do I have to offer her? Like why is she with this guy?
Speaker 2:because he's so immature yeah, I mean it's not about even like the job or whatever, but like he's just there's just not a lot there and I remember her feeling like actually kind of a complex character with real ambition and talent and interests and things. That's my recollection and so that's.
Speaker 1:that's what's interesting. So like part of what I found interesting watching it this time was realizing how well she and Wayne do fit together. That struck me like I had no memory of that. Now, part of it is like you first meet her and she is, first of all, she is not interested in anybody, Like she's not interested in men. Now there's a little bit of not like other girls to her because she is an accomplished musician. She did her own singing. I did not realize this. That is her singing Ballroom Blitz. That's cool. The way they describe it is. She wails, she does. They're really good. You see her break up a fight and first thing there's definitely like this woman is incredible.
Speaker 2:A little bit of badassery going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But she also has a very immature sense of humor and like when we first meet her, she like is not charmed at all by either Wayne or Benjamin trying to hit on her when they first meet. And she like says like hey, I gotta go. The the owner of this place is trying to screw me over, and like is vulgar in a way that feels like it matches wayne's kind of immaturity yeah um, and and it's not like an ugliness or but- it just it's almost like a comportment toward yeah, yeah whatever, yeah and so, and the reason why she ends up liking wayne is because he learns cantonese for her oh, so he can speak to her in cantonese.
Speaker 2:He learned some phrases in cantonese.
Speaker 1:I vaguely remember that and it's a very funny scene because, well, he's, he's, uh, like it's a week between when he meets her for the first time and when he's like you know, I'd like to see you again, or I don't remember exactly what it is and she's like, oh, I'm having a party at my loft next week. There's flyers over there, come to that. It's five dollars at the door, so like she's not interested in him, and so in that week he listens to audio Cantonese stuff. And then they have this. He's like he first tells her you're pretty in Cantonese and she's like, oh, my God, that's amazing. And then they start having a conversation. He's like, oh, I don't know much. And then they have this very deep, intense conversation. And one of my favorite sight gag is he says something that is very short it's like two syllables and then the subtitles go on for like 30 seconds.
Speaker 2:That is such an old joke, and yet it is. It's still funny, it's so funny. How you can say, like that old joke, that like it takes like a whole paragraph to say like yes. But then you can say, like the meaning of life, with like three words yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I feel like that's a Bugs Bunny joke, it is, yeah, I think it is so. So that's like that. I really appreciated that, like I felt like, okay, I get why they're together, because he is bringing a levity to her also, um, because she does take things very seriously, and so like that, that's being able to relax yeah, and she works so very hard, she's very driven, and so having someone who can just make her laugh, yeah, that does make sense.
Speaker 1:It does yeah yeah, so I just it. Honestly. I just was not expecting to find her character so well drawn and likable, because what I remember about her is her body and her face, and that's that's where I think this film is employing the male gaze.
Speaker 2:Can you say more Because?
Speaker 1:that was what I took away from Cassandra was not this nuanced character who was a good fit for Wayne in a lot of ways and was clearly very driven and all of that. And actually as a character, the way she dresses makes sense. She's like I am willing to use the fact that I am a gorgeous woman to help promote this band. I don't think that like she's also dressing for herself. Like you never see her, she likes to dress in a way that shows off her body and she's proud of her body. So like it's not like she wears sweats and then when she's proud of her body, so like it's not like she wears sweats and then when she's on stage, she, she does that. It's not not exactly that, that clear cut, but there is this sense that like she's not unwilling to use that aspect of who she is to try to help her band make it. How would you change?
Speaker 2:it, to make it not.
Speaker 1:So some of it has to do with the way that they they look at women in general, like the whole the dream Weaver joke.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the. Male gaze Right, or even the. They did the swing thing right when they like. Lift their pelvis off the couch when they see someone that they find attractive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like I was talking to my spouse about that, about how like that feels a little gross but it's like 14-year-old boy gross. It doesn't feel like Wayne and Garth are objectifying women, they are appreciating women, but the movie kind of is.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting distinction. It's such a weird thing to be like. She gives me a boner, yeah, which is effectively what that means, right, it just feels so weird.
Speaker 1:Yes, but it's like there is no expectation for anything past that.
Speaker 2:That is true. There is a distinction between like oh she gives me a boner and I want to bone her. Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's a big difference between those two yeah, this is just like. Wow, is she pretty. Which, like if they said it that way and like they do, they're like if she were president, she'd be abraham lincoln and like not about that. So, like this is, this is it's appreciation, and not like it's, it's still can be objectification.
Speaker 2:yeah, it still can be objectification, even if it's appreciation, but it's not in a way that feels unsafe. Yes, so often objectification, even if it's appreciation, but it's not in a way that feels unsafe. Yes, so often objectification does feel unsafe.
Speaker 1:Yes, and like the other thing that I appreciate for the most part about the way Wayne talks about Cassandra is he says like, wow, I love this woman when he sees her do cool things. Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's not threatened by her badassery.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, he sees her do cool things. Yeah, he's not threatened by her badassery. Yeah, yeah, so like it just was really interesting seeing that. Now, as for the male gaze, like what I would do differently it the the camera lingers on her breasts and her legs like the the camera so there's a literal gaze.
Speaker 1:Yes, that you're, that you're reacting to, not just sort of in the abstract sense of how we're thinking about this yeah, female character but literally what we are looking at yeah, and that's why all I remembered of her, of her character, was of her being hot and, like I, I'm kind of frustrated because this was kind of the peak of Tia Carrera's career, if I understand it. Like I know, she did some other stuff after this, but I don't really know what she went on to do and I didn't think of her as like a talent when she is like she's, she's got great comedic chops and the singing is amazing, like you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It looks like she was in Relic Hunter. Mm-hmm. She looks like a B film yeah.
Speaker 1:And then she was in a uh like. There was a movie that I remember seeing from the early 2000s or maybe late 90s, where it's like a guy who decided to go on like 100 first dates in a year and like the producers made him like have a date with someone famous and tia carrera was the famous person, oh but she was just in something called aj and the queen in 2020 so you know this.
Speaker 2:This film should have launched her career the way it did mike myers's, but it didn't, and that's that's a shame, that's a damn shame it looks like she's been in a lot of things, but they're all except for lilo and stitch. They're all relatively um small budget yeah, oh no, she was in true lies with uh, she okay with arnold, and um, uh, jamie lee curtis. Jamie lee curtis, yeah, that's on her list. I don't know what. I don't know what she was. I'm just looking, I'm just looking at google folks, but yeah, yeah, yeah, anyway, okay. So yeah, she's not. I mean seriously when you say her name.
Speaker 2:This is the film that I think of yeah, yeah, that I find really interesting, like it's the give with one hand, take away with another that we so often see and then I think your point about the actual like where the camera lingers, actually specifically that, because that's in some ways very subtle and and also has such a huge impact, such that here we are, you know these 30 years later or whatever, and that's what you remember, is her body, because that's the power of that direction, the directorial choices versus even her acting choices or the writer, like they all work together. I think that's really like worth noting that it's not just if directorial choices would have been different, that lasting impression, which is what we're all about here on Deep Thoughts, would have been quite different. Of Cassandra, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, sorry, carry on.
Speaker 1:So that brings me to Stacey.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So Stacey is obsessed with Wayne. She wears a necklace with the letters W-A-Y-N-E on it. When we first meet her, she brings a gift to him, like it's our anniversary gift.
Speaker 2:It's like a gun rack. Gun rack.
Speaker 1:Yeah so, and like some of the funniest lines, because he's like there better not be a severed head in there. And then he opens it and he's like what is it? And she's like it's a gun rack. And he's like what am I going to do with a gun rack? I don't even own a gun, let alone multiples requiring a rack. So it's just a weird choice, like why they have this character in there.
Speaker 1:And what Wayne and Cassandra talk about in Cantonese is about Stacy is partially and like that actually is really interesting. I hadn't remembered this. So Stacy talks to Garth on the the night that they're at Cassandra's party when Wayne shows that he knows Cantonese and she says like what should I do? And he's like get over him, date someone else. And she's like hmm, okay.
Speaker 1:And she like grabs a guy and takes him upstairs to like make out with him in front of Wayne to try to make Wayne jealous, and so she says hi to him as he and Cassandra are talking and in the subtitles he says like I feel kind of guilty because I think that I'm part of the reason why she can't move on, or I don't remember exactly what it is Like. Ironically, I think I'm like I'm causing this or you know, he's taking responsibility for whatever is going on with her. And Cassandra says, says something along the lines of like it's good that you're compassionate, but don't let her victimize you, so like they even give like a little bit more there, so that Stacey isn't just the butt of a joke. There is this sense that Wayne realizes that he screwed up in whatever, how he was with her when they were dating, how he broke up with her, whatever. But it's in Cantonese and you get it as subtitles and they consistently refer to her as the psycho hose beast and they consistently refer to her as the psycho hose beast.
Speaker 2:There's something just so deeply disturbing about the crazy ex-girlfriend's trope.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:And I'm trying to articulate what it is that's so bothersome about it, what it is that's so bothersome about it like the obsessed ex-boyfriend is is literally a danger, terrifying. Yeah right, the the the obsessed ex-boyfriend is the murderer regularly, and the crazy ex-girlfriend is just the butt of a joke, and maybe that's part of what is so bothersome about it it.
Speaker 1:Well, it's also so often the first explanation Like, oh, we didn't work out because she was crazy. It's not like. And that's why I thought it was interesting that Wayne takes some responsibility for her not being okay right now, because so often you will see, like well, she was crazy, she got mad that I left my socks on the floor, like crazy bitch, you know, and and so like. There's this lack of compassion, or putting oneself in the girlfriend's shoes to understand what she's upset about, and so crazy is the immediate way of describing it, of what it is. Well, she was crazy because she cared about things that don't matter.
Speaker 2:I think that's part of it. I think there's also a piece of it that is a little male fantasy that women can't move on from me, right, that I'm just so remarkable in bed or whatever, that you know, once you've had a taste of me, you can't move on. Yeah, yeah, it also feeds into, I mean, I think, wayne's world didn't necessarily because he did want a commitment with Cassandra, but it also feeds into that fear of commitment. There's like the scary stories, like halloween stories, short, where uh, gingy the gingerbread man tells a story about making a girlfriend for him who turns into a crazy like obsessed, like totally obsessed with him and wants more commitment than he's willing to give, kind of a thing.
Speaker 2:All of that is baked in to that trope and it's even though this is a character who has had a in backstory, had a relationship, a romantic relationship with our protagonist. She's not actually a character. Yeah, I'm not, and I'm talking about Stacey, but I'm also just talking about the trope in general. She's just an unwanted woman who wants me, and I think I mean that constellation is all about male fantasy, I think, and I think that's part of why it bothers me so much, especially because in reality, so often the genders are reversed in heterosexual couples and that obsessed ex-boyfriend literally kills her.
Speaker 1:Well, and even in this conception of it. So Stacy's played by Laura Flynn Boyle who, um, she was on twin peaks, um, she played Audrey on twin peaks. She was the one who, uh, tied the cherry salmon and not with her tongue. Oh yeah, I remember. Yeah, um, she is a gorgeous woman. Yeah. Now, mike Myers is an attractive man Like I, I. Now, mike myers is an attractive man like I I. He's not movie star handsome, but he's an attractive man. Wayne campbell has a mullet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wayne's not a particularly attractive, yeah, protagonist and he, he has a series of the garth, yes, um, but he has a series of mcobs. He's like he lives in his parents' house, like you know. He's got a cable access show out of his basement. He has no real ambition, like the that's the other aspect of it. That's kind of a male fantasy, is like Laura Flynn Boyle would have nothing to do with that character, with that character. Like and like they, they make Stacy like she's. It's hard to tell because it's 1992 fashion and so I'm like are they trying to make her look a little dowdy or is that just what you wore? I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:Thea Carrera doesn't look dowdy. I don't. I think it's on purpose, Not at all.
Speaker 1:But like when you first see her, she's wearing one of those dresses that we wore at bar mitzvahs in 1992, where it's like the three skirts like kind of thing. Anyway, it's like it's not unflattering it, like she is an attractive woman but she's not like Laura Flynn Boyle but anyway, and like they show her in form, fitting stuff, she just doesn't like. There's just choices that they make so she doesn't look as attractive, but that's that's like part of it as well is like it's already kind of a fantasy that Cassandra would be interested in him, even though I like. I think that it. It makes sense in the way that they wrote the movie. They wrote it that he learned Cantonese for her and she's used to people just being like wow, you're hot, right Cause that's what Benjamin is is like to her.
Speaker 2:Right, right.
Speaker 1:And so so like, okay, fair, but that there would be two such attractive women and one of them would be obsessed with them. Cause that's the other aspect of it that I appreciated about Cassandra is he loses the show. She is still working with Benjamin. Benjamin has done all of this, manipulated it, and Benjamin's played by Rob Lowe, who is Rob Lowe. I mean, like that man, he's a very attractive man, oh my. God, he's so good looking.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And at every age like cause.
Speaker 2:He's now in his sixties and it's still just like yeah, I wouldn't kick him out of my bed for eating crackers.
Speaker 1:Me either. So Wayne gets jealous and he loses the show and he goes to Cassandra who's packing to go film her music video and he's like, oh, you're still working with Benjamin. She's like, yeah, this is my career. And he goes well, maybe he's poking you, which is like the grossest possible way of saying it and she says I think you better leave, get out of my house, good for her. And she has no intention of ever talking to him again, like great, that's fantastic. Yeah, and he has to win her back. And he also recognizes that he does. So that was really gross and he should never have said such a thing. And ew, and you know, don't get in the way of her career, dude.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So a couple other things I want to mention. One is that part of what is so endearing about this movie is the chemistry between Wayne and Garth, and specifically Mike Myers and Dana Carvey. There is a scene where they're lying on the pacer the GMC pacer.
Speaker 2:That is the, the car that they drove I loved pacers before even I had seen that movie. I just thought they were the like, coolest looking, it looked awesome.
Speaker 1:I like cars with big asses me too.
Speaker 2:I have this little like. If you're watching the video you can see I have like a little hot. It's actually from um. The car is the movie, but it's like the pacer's car that I keep on my little desk. I just think this is that big fat anyway.
Speaker 1:So they're laying on the pace. I like, I like cars with the donk donks. I mean like, what can I say?
Speaker 2:you gotta be able to put some junk in a truck. Man, exactly, literally.
Speaker 1:So there's the scene where they're lying on the pacer watching airplanes fly in and Dana Carvey says did you ever think that Bugs Bunny, when he dressed up as a girl bunny, was kind of attractive?
Speaker 2:And Wayne goes no.
Speaker 1:And then starts laughing. That was ad-libbed by Dana Carvey and that was actually Mike Myers laughing, and so and that's always been one of my favorite moments, in part because of like that laughter is like so funny and genuine. Genuine, because it was Because it was, and like I mean Gar Genuine, because it was Because it was, and like I mean Garth, you're not wrong.
Speaker 2:I mean, they drew him that way for a reason.
Speaker 1:So some of what is so charming about this movie is that friend chemistry between Wayne and Garth. And then there are these random asides, like, for example, alice Cooper in Milwaukee, which is the reason why I know that Milwaukee means the good land, and it was Miliwake in the Algonquin. You know that because of this movie, huh.
Speaker 2:Is that right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, yeah, they spend time with Alice Cooper backstage and Wayne's not sure what to say to him. He's like do you come to Milwaukee often? And Alice Cooper is like I am a regular visitor to Milwaukee, which has seen lots of travelers, including, you know, people visiting the Native Americans who lived here. In fact, the word Milwaukee, wow. And then the other thing that I think is fascinating about Milwaukee is it's the only major American city to have had three socialist mayors. And that's the point at which Wayne goes does this guy know how to party, or what? That is so charming? It is so charming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it has nothing to do with the fact that you live in Milwaukee now.
Speaker 1:So it fits different now that I live in Milwaukee. Yeah, so it fits different now that I live in Milwaukee. There was recently I was talking to I was talking to my youngest and I think one of his teachers or something, and we were talking about Milwaukee and the teacher and I were both like it means the good land. And my youngest was like wait, that's cool that you both know that and we're like uh well, there's this movie.
Speaker 2:That is so funny that you and the teacher bonded over that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's charming, it's just charming. There's another scene where Garth plays the drums and that's actually Dana Carvey, and then the soundtrack is amazing. So like there's all these charming things. Now, the most famous scene is the Bohemian Rhapsody scene in the pacer which Mike Myers fought to have in the movie. Lorne Michaels wanted it to be Guns and Roses, which honestly makes a little more sense with who the characters are. But Mike Myers was like he and his brothers, I think, used to like sing along to it and the operatic stuff and like had a great time with it when he was a kid. And he's like no, no, no, we got to do this and he was right. I mean that's, that scene is charming.
Speaker 2:I think there's also something really much more interesting. Is it more interesting, trace? There's something interesting about the fact that they were using this song. That wasn't new in 92, I think there's that. I think there's something really kind of like interesting and deep and powerful about that, that this queen song I mean it was within months of when freddie mercury died. Yeah, I was just going to say was Freddie Mercury, even still with us?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was. They didn't and couldn't have known because it was filmed, I think, in the summer of 91 and released in 92, I think, february 92. So, freddie.
Speaker 2:Mercury was still with us when they filmed it.
Speaker 1:Yes, so it wasn't like it was an immediate tribute, but that is how I was introduced to Queen. Now I knew we will rock you but I didn't know that was.
Speaker 1:Queen, right as an aside. This is also how I learned that our father was a bullshitter. It was this, it was, it was it was. You play it on thick all the time. So here's the thing. Like it's how I figured it out, okay. Okay, it had happened before, but I hadn't really like put it together. Dad told me that song was called Scaramouche and I said with vim and conviction to everyone no, the song is called Scaramouche. My dad said so. My dad said so, and so Jim Guy was a lot of things, but he was the og mansplainer of all time, for reals yeah, and if he didn't know, he just made that shit up, made it up and he said it with such confidence and so conviction yes like um and so like.
Speaker 2:Mom tells the story like before they got divorced, that he tried to convince her that Olivia Newton John and Elton John were married.
Speaker 1:It would make more sense if they were brother and sister.
Speaker 2:Mom tells the story. That's how she realized he was a bullshitter, because Olivia, Newton John and Elton John were married. Love you dad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, miss you like crazy. I wish you were still here to bullshit us. But oh, my goodness, yeah. So that that's like. That is one of my big takeaways from this movie too was like I was a pariah at deer park middle school because you thought it was called scaramouche. I thought thought it was called Scaramouche and I argued with people so funny. So there's some things that I think might be different if we made it today. I think the male gaze would be different. There are some jokes that we might treat Stacey differently, or one would hope so.
Speaker 1:But the thing that I kind of remembered and kind of forgot how it came about there's a scene where Benjamin is chasing after Wayne to try to stop him and he's like walking like oddly and I couldn't remember exactly why and it's because they are friends with a police officer who early on he talks about how he had to do body cavity searches on like this, like entire hockey team or something like that. And so when Wayne decides to go after Cassandra and try to get her to play for the big record executive, like all the friends are like we'll help, we'll help you do this. And so you see the police officer pull Benjamin over, and then he's like all right, will you turn around and put your hands on the hood of the car? And then he pulls on a glove.
Speaker 2:So Benjamin's walking funny because he's been sexually assaulted yes, by one of Wayne's friends, that's like assaulted, yes, by one of Wayne's friends.
Speaker 1:That's unpleasant, yeah, and I was talking to my spouse about that and he was like, well, I mean I was like it's not okay, not funny, it's not okay. And it's also. It's not just not okay, it's also like an abuse of police power.
Speaker 2:It's just gross, which is really ugly On multiple levels. Yeah, and like we laughed at it because it was the bad guy Right and because it's Rob Lowe and he's so handsome and you know, and, and, and Benjamin's a dick, and so like whatever he got was coming to him. But no, that we can't. We can't keep, we can't keep doing that. Yeah. If something is wrong, it's wrong, regardless of who it's being done to. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:You don't have to be a good person to not be sexually assaulted.
Speaker 2:By the cop, by the police, or by anybody, by anybody, by anybody, but in particular by those who are sworn to protect and serve. Yeah yeah, agents of the state should not, no, nope.
Speaker 1:So that has not aged well. That's basically it. Like I was a little afraid that there might be that we might see, like the ableist r word, I was afraid there might be, uh, gay panic. No, there's none of that. So like there's in fact, one of the camera operators that hangs out with Wayne and Garth Terry. He consistently, when he finds out something like good news, he's like Wayne, I love you man. And like Garth, I love you man. And like it's this running joke that he's like no, no, no, I really love you. And the joke is not that this man loves his male friends, the joke is that he's just so effusive about it. And like people don't know how to respond. And in like the movie has three endings there's the sad ending, there's a Scooby-Doo ending and then there's the super mega happy ending. And in the super mega happy ending one of the characters to whom Terry has said I love you man. His super happy ending is like I've learned that two men can have platonic friendship and love between them and I'm all the richer for it. And like that's delightful. I mean I love that. That's great, that's very healthy, we need that.
Speaker 1:And even the way that Wayne goes about fixing the things he's broken, because he loses his show. He doesn't get it back because he wouldn't, because there was a contract, you know, like that's at least realistic. He loses his best friend because he walks out on the show in the middle of taping and so Garth, who is not socially adept, has to do the show by himself, which he is not capable of doing, and he gets really mad at him. And then he loses Cassandra because he accuses her of cheating on him in the worst possible way. And the way that he apologizes to Garth and the way that he apologizes to Cassandra are just, they're lovely. Like he overdoes it with Cassandra, he like, and they have it underneath their like Oscar clip and he takes like water and he's like and I never learned to read, but it's, it's like, it's sincere, Like's sincere, he's sincerely sorry for what he's done and the way that he tries to make it up to Garth it's lovely.
Speaker 1:I was reading some contemporaneous reviews, including Roger Ebert, who he said basically went into it without much in the way of expectations. He said basically went into it without any much in the way of expectations and he was charmed by it and thought it was funny and one of the things I believe it was Ebert said was that part of what this story is is like don't underestimate these kind of slacker guys Like they're sweet, good people who are capable of doing cool things like learning cantonese I feel like there's probably some like underlying message about gen x too, like we were yes, like we were always told that we were lazy, when in fact we just didn't care about the things that yeah, cared about.
Speaker 1:Thank you for bringing that up, because that it there's a lot of overlap with reality bites and the idea of selling out, because that's that's the issue. Like Wayne does not want to have to interview Noah Vanderhoff on his show every week, which is what he would have to do under the contract, and then that satirical scene where he's like I'm just not gonna sell out, and then, like you know, he's he's got pizza hut and like, and then pepsi, and then and he's like this is giving me a headache and like here, try this. And it's the um new print. Do you remember those little yellow different?
Speaker 2:better. Little yellow, different, better.
Speaker 1:They didn't have better in the movie, and so it's fascinating because I feel like it's doing exactly what Reality Bites did, except even more biting because it's saying don't sell out. And yet this entire scene is product placement.
Speaker 2:Which is what Reality Bites I mean. Yes, yes, like Reality Bites did that, they just didn't have their tongue in their cheek Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:So that's really fascinating to think about. And then also, like did Wayne make the right choice? And like I mean he insulted Noah Vanderhoff. He had cards of questions he was supposed to ask and on the back he wrote like sphincter boy and right, stuff like that, which is what he's always done. And the real problem is he didn't read his contract right. It's not that.
Speaker 2:how does he fix the losing the show? Does he start a new show?
Speaker 1:oh, there is so there's no solution to that in the film. I don't know if, like, I've seen wayne's world too, I I remember bits of it, but I don't remember it either if my, if my friend this morning hadn't mentioned it, I'm not sure I could have. Yeah, come up with anything about it so it's just, it's just gone, which is how life goes sometimes. That's how it goes, yeah, but you know he got the.
Speaker 2:The important stuff is is uh, yeah, I mean he could have just started a new show called like Wayne and Garth in the Morning, or something.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Wayne and Garth in the Morning?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can tell I've been watching Community lately. Yeah, okay, all right. Well, that's really interesting. I mean, like in terms of like what the underlying message is about selling out, though right, because reality bites was like trying to have it both ways that we had this major motion picture that was telling us that we should not sell out and gave us that sort of false binary, like it seems to me that even by doing that very satirical, like I would never sell out here, have little yellow, different they're sort of saying like right, you know, this is just, this is how it is. Yeah, like we've already sold out, that's, that's what this is well, and so there's kind of a like it. It undercuts the whole the, it undercuts the false binary, I think.
Speaker 1:Ultimately, well, and it also the other thing that I think is interesting is that he doesn't get the show back like and the super mega happy ending does not include him having wayne's world again um and like that's also like I feel like that's very gen x as well.
Speaker 2:It's just like yeah, that's life meh, yeah, yeah I mean, that's kind of how our childhoods were, right yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah. And pizza rolls.
Speaker 2:Play hockey on the street, cool, all right. Any other like key highlights that you want to lift up? Or should I look back and reflect back on what we've said?
Speaker 1:I think reflection is pretty good time for that.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to see if I can lift back up some of the things. On the problematic side. I heard a lot about gender and this is really interesting to me in the ways that you picked out the problematics of the male gaze in this film, which is specific to the medium. So if we had been reading a novel about Wayne's world, possibly, possibly, we would have not been left with that same sort of male gaze. I mean, depending on how it was written, we still might have heard more descriptions of Cassandra's breasts than we did of her intellect.
Speaker 2:But in particular, it was the directorial choices in this film that left us with this sort of lasting impression of her as a hot girl, as opposed to as a talented musician, as an ambitious artist, as a no-nonsense businesswoman or a no-nonsense businesswoman or a no-nonsense woman who takes no guff from her boyfriend. All of those things were true about this character, but the thing that you were left with from your 13-year-old self, 12-year-old self, 13-year-old self is tits and ass, and that's a directorial choice that did that. I found that really interesting. Also on the problematic side, we've got Stacey, the crazy ex-girlfriend, who, also in my read, is ultimately about male fantasy because she's not actually a fully formed human being, she's just a psycho hose beast Right who is. She's a woman that I've had sex with and since I had sex with her, she won't have sex with anybody else. And that sort of like wish fulfillment of how amazing a particular man might be.
Speaker 1:For the women in his life. The amazingness of Wayne's Wang. If you're wondering where my sense of humor came from, I saw this when I was 13.
Speaker 2:One more thing in the problematic section. Here we've got rob low walking kind of funny at the end, at where having an agent of the state sexually assault a man who he doesn't like is like the butt of a joke not cool, not cool. On the other side, we saw actually some really interesting things where this kind of you know aimless, I think is the word that you used Wayne Campbell and very driven Cassandra actually do make a certain amount of sense together as a romantic pairing. The way that he put himself out to learn Cantonese, which proves that actually he's not incapable, he just doesn't want to, which I link back to Gen X. In general, I feel like that was a common complaint that boomers had about us, especially in the 90s, which actually, if you look back, it's pretty common throughout history. It's like pretty common throughout history.
Speaker 1:That's actually when people were saying that about millennials, like in the like 2000s, like when millennials were becoming adults, and I was just like I didn't take it seriously because I was like I remember boomers saying this about Gen X, like 15 years ago. Why, why is everyone's memory so short?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, cicero was saying it in you know, fourth century. So that's sort of another sort of interesting thing, the Gen X piece of it. Also on the plus sides, the soundtrack is remarkable, it's so good. The charm of the chemistry between Wayne and Garth, mike Myers and Dana Carvey is really delightful. The laughter and the enjoyment of one another is genuine because those two men actually made each other laugh on the regular.
Speaker 2:Also, some of the weird asides that don't actually advance the plot, but there wasn't much of one, such as alice cooper teaching us about milwaukee, meaning the good land, and wayne and the other guys singing bohemian rhapsody in the pacer, which became sort of iconic scenes for gen x. Both taught a whole new generation about queen and bohemian rhapsody, which was not called Scaramouche, despite what our father told you. And also like now we've got these two Milwaukee-ites what do you all call yourselves Milwaukee-ites? Now we've got these two Milwaukee-ites telling a 10-year-old what the name of the city means because of this movie. So there's some really sweet takeaways and long-term impacts, sweet, long-term impacts from this movie, these little sort of takeaway things Like these little sort of takeaway things.
Speaker 2:So one other thing that I'm going to add, which I think I'm going to put in sort of the. I started saying neutral and now I'm not sure if neutral is the right word, but it's not. It's not overly problematic, but it's also like not. It's not in the sweet category either, which is the ways in which Wayne and Garth objectify women, which we noted is still objectifying but it doesn't feel dangerous, unlike so much objectification of women, which does seem to be a first step toward violence against women. These two indeterminate age men going swing. Swing doesn't feel like the first step toward violence against women, unlike other pop culture depictions of wow, she's so pretty, though I have to say she will be mine. Oh yes, she will be could be the first step toward violence against women yes yeah.
Speaker 2:So you know it's a, it's a give and take here. That that was a lot. I'm actually really proud of myself that I remembered all those things Um, cause I don't usually remember them all in like my one, like that's what we talked about, but I'm sure there's something that you want to make sure that I didn't. I didn't leave on the table, so lay it on me. What did I leave on the table?
Speaker 1:The fact that it was a female director and that was still relatively rare in 1992. Now she and Mike Myers clashed a bit and so she did not come back for Wayne's World 2. Now it sounds like as easygoing as his character is, he is very serious and driven about his comedy. There were also things like apparently like the headbanging during the, because it takes so many takes to get a full scene, but the headbanging to Bohemian Rhapsody. He got really frustrated because it was hurting. But she was like no, we got to keep getting the takes until we get it, and you know things like that it's really interesting too that we see that male gaze, which is very much a directorial choice, coming from a female director.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's in 92, so she's doing what she needs to do. Maybe, maybe, yeah, that that adds an interesting layer to that analysis that we shared. Yeah, because if it were like we talked about the fifth element recently and like Luc Bess, women when were the women helping to make this piece of media? Well, we have an answer here. There she is Penelope in the director chair. Penelope, what was her name? Spheeris? Penelope Spheeris in the director chair. And yet we still have the male gaze, which I think is as much an indictment of our culture and what it took for her to be sitting in the director's chair as it is of penelope well, it's also like the thing is, I remember tia carrera's beauty because I liked looking at her too.
Speaker 1:yeah, you know, like this is like some of this is also like yeah, linger there, I want to see that.
Speaker 2:But Rob Lowe is also there. I mean, we spent a moment kind of drooling over Rob Lowe, but there wasn't like lingering over his pecs or his biceps or you know his crotch, at least that I don't recall that.
Speaker 1:No, I mean like they make it clear that he's a very handsome man and he's he's dressed in like early 90s, like businessman attire, um, and some of it is like that.
Speaker 2:It was baggy, like suits it was right and like just, but we also saw him in bed. You said initially so we might have.
Speaker 1:I can't remember if he was shirtless or not, honestly, so yeah.
Speaker 2:We also have been conditioned to expect and appreciate the male gaze after thousands of years of it.
Speaker 1:Well, and as important as this film was for me at 13, like it was important for everyone in my middle school, including, yeah, the cishet young boys, right. So I mean that was part of like. Tia carrera was hired not just because of her talent, right right, right, okay, any final thoughts? No, no, I think. Uh, I, like I was, I was glad to revisit it, I was glad that I've I've had such media conversations with my kids that my son could say isn't that misogynistic, oh yeah way to.
Speaker 2:I mean seriously good on. That is proof of good parenting right there.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I'd call it that, but I would. But overall this held up remarkably well. It's still a pretty sweet film. The humor is still pretty good. There's stuff that went over my head as a kid and I glad whenever my my youngest's head, yeah. But when they all start headbanging, all four of us laughed. Yeah, and my husband and I like we knew it was coming, but we still that's cool, that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:So next time is supposed to be me time supposed to be me, yes, but instead we are going to have a guest. I went to a writer's conference in February and I met Mallory Henson there. I was telling her a little bit about the podcast and she asked if we had done an episode on Pee Wee's Playhouse. And I was like, oh my goodness, no, I hadn't even thought of it. And I was like, would you like to come on?
Speaker 2:and she said sure so I have not thought about that show in forever yeah, I don't think we watched it really like a little bit but it wasn't one on regular rotation at least for me it wasn't.
Speaker 1:I saw the film peewee's big's Big Adventure.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, me too, but the show. I only watched a little bit. It wasn't one of my regulars.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I'm pretty excited to dig into that with her. Do you have any listener comments you want to share? I do. I have a couple of things. So, friend of the show, lynette Davis, said the Bohemian Rhapsody scene was my favorite. I think that's how I officially got introduced to Queen, heard their songs before, but was too young to put the pieces together until that scene Iconic. And I replied that's how I first heard Queen too. And then my friend Sherry Ann said me three. And then another friend of the show, kate Moody, said this is one of my favorite movies of all time I know. So it introduced me to Queen and the song Ballroom Blitz, which is this version of Ballroom Blitz. It's amazing. That's actually. Another thing that I remember from the film is there's a point where she sings with a wink of her eye when Tia Carrera sings that and she winks and I just remember that being really cool and she asked how'd the comedy hold up for you on this rewatch? And I was like remarkably well.
Speaker 2:Cool. All right, I look forward to meeting Mallory and talking about Pee Wee's Playhouse next time. Until then, see you next time. Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?