It’s a bird! It’s a plane! It’s an unreasonable hatred for Hackensack, New Jersey!
This week, Tracie brings her Deep Thoughts about the 1978 film Superman: The Movie. From the way this film helped legitimize comic books and superheroes as a valid art form to the huge influence Christopher Reeve’s Superman still has on our culture, this pillar of the Guy Girls’ childhood offers a lot to appreciate on a second look. But, not everything is rosy in Smallville and Metropolis, including the misogyny of Lois Lane’s inability to spell, despite being The Daily Planet’s best reporter, and a cavalier attitude about consent.
Retreat to your own personal Fortress of Solitude and take a listen.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
It’s a bird! It’s a plane! It’s an unreasonable hatred for Hackensack, New Jersey!
This week, Tracie brings her Deep Thoughts about the 1978 film Superman: The Movie. From the way this film helped legitimize comic books and superheroes as a valid art form to the huge influence Christopher Reeve’s Superman still has on our culture, this pillar of the Guy Girls’ childhood offers a lot to appreciate on a second look. But, not everything is rosy in Smallville and Metropolis, including the misogyny of Lois Lane’s inability to spell, despite being The Daily Planet’s best reporter, and a cavalier attitude about consent.
Retreat to your own personal Fortress of Solitude and take a listen.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? Today, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1978 film Superman the movie with my sister, emily Guy-Burken, and with you. Let's dive in. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come over, think with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. Okay, um, this was the original superhero movie, christopher Reeve, margot Kidder. It was released before you were born. But what do you know or remember about Superman the movie?
Speaker 2:So, based on conversations you and I had before we started recording, I'm realizing that my memories of Superman, the movie may be from the sequels. Memories of superman, the movie may be from the sequels, because I remember things like him reversing the uh, the direction of the earth to reverse time oh yeah, that's in superman one yes, that is in the movie okay, superman the movie to save lois lane yeah so I remember the fortress of solitude.
Speaker 1:I remember, like the three black clad aliens which I think were in the sequel they're very, very briefly in the beginning, in the very beginning of superman, the movie, but yes, they have no real role I remember like being a kid and knowing that marlon brando and I don't I'm sure I didn't know his name.
Speaker 2:I knew it was a big deal, that he was Jor-El, but I didn't really get it, but I just knew that it was like dad was tickled, yeah, and gosh, I mean, christopher Reeve set the standard for Superman for me. Yeah, so I think of and this is another thing we mentioned before we started recording Christopher Reeve's life story makes his portrayal and his association with Superman so much more poignant, and so I also find myself thinking about that, and he seems like he was quite a mensch. And then there's the really bizarre thing. I cannot tell you which superman movie it is, but there's nuns on the eiffel tower. Yeah, that's number two, that's in superman 2, and so this is long before today. Tracy and I were talking about how because he like saves these nuns the Eiffel Tower. We both thought nuns lived in towers.
Speaker 1:Totally. I thought they lived on those microwave towers. Yes, how did the poor paper boy get their paper all the way up there?
Speaker 2:And we were trying to figure out how exactly we came to that conclusion, and I think it was like our mom said something about how they live away from men, and then because we saw them on a tower in this film.
Speaker 1:I was. I was so surprised when you said that you had that like association, because I totally did. I thought it was just me.
Speaker 2:So it never occurred to me that you had it as well.
Speaker 1:Likewise.
Speaker 2:Same thing with the microwave tower Like I was just cause I knew that one. Like there's room up there for for there to be like living quarters.
Speaker 1:Well, cause it looks. It looks like they're little houses up there on those big. Yeah, I man, I must, I re, I can. I can imagine like little like baby Emily and baby Tracy in the back of the car and like baby Tracy being like, look, and that's where the nuns live. Obviously not Catholic children. No, never actually met a nun until I was an adult.
Speaker 2:Well, like I didn't really understand why they dressed the way, they did, why would they need to be away from men?
Speaker 1:Anyway, okay, we digress, we gotta digress Anyway.
Speaker 2:So those are. Those are. Those are the things that I think of when it comes to Superman, what I associate with the character and the film. The only other thing is that I think of Superman's real name, kal-el and Jor-El. They always remind me of the name of the Israeli airline, el Al.
Speaker 1:El.
Speaker 2:Al, and there are quite a few Israeli names that end with the Al, and so, like I've met people named El. Yeah, which actually kind of fits because the originator, original writers and artists creating Superman were Jewish. So yeah. Yeah, but that's something that always just sticks in my head.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, there's actually a moment in Superman 2. They're at Niagara Falls and Superman like saves a kid who has like fallen down. He's like falling into the falls and Superman saves him. And like, in the background, you just hear people talking about it like oh, he's such a nice guy, I love him.
Speaker 1:And then somebody goes oh, he's such a nice guy, I love him. And then somebody goes, of course he's Jewish. I had to back it up and replay it several times to make sure I was actually hearing what I thought I was hearing.
Speaker 2:Anyway, yeah. So those are my memories of this, which are very hazy. But tell me, why are we talking about this today?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I started thinking about it again. I think it was on our list maybe, but I started thinking about it again because of our recent episode with John Shore, where we were talking about journalists and reporters and so I was thinking about Lois Lane and I was remembering this movie and I remembered it really fondly. It was something that like a lot of the pieces of media that we pick out for this project. It's something that I associate with watching with dad.
Speaker 2:we obviously watched a lot of movies with dad well, he was a movie buff and he gave us a very good film. Education without, without meaning to yeah, yeah yeah, also that. That is the one other thing. There is that, I think, senior photo of dad from high school where they like painted in a little curl, oh yeah and uh, and he looks like Clark Kent and it's because we never knew dad with hair Right and dad liked that.
Speaker 1:Like the people thought he looked like Clark Kent and he appreciated that and he was like he was a journalist and on the school paper and and all of that so like that.
Speaker 2:That's the other aspect that I I connect with.
Speaker 1:It is that that's journalism and like dad's opinion of the daily planet as a, as a newspaper, and that sort of thing, yeah, yeah, so I, I it's been on my mind a little bit because of that conversation with, uh, with john shore, and so I wanted to like go back and look at it because I, like you, kind of had hazy, fond but hazy memories and I realized actually in rewatching it so that we could talk about it, that, like you, some of my memories were from sequels. Superman two in particular, I think, was really in my memory. But there were, there are things from Superman one, so I, I watched them both before we started recording, and so I'd like I'm going to focus on Superman, the movie, but I may bring in Superman to a little bit. I really want to think about kind of some of the, some of the lessons that are embedded in Superman that did or didn't make it into the movie and kind of in the zeitgeist, but but specifically through the movie, through Christopher Reeve's portrayal. So I'm going to talk about storytelling, about pacing, about genre, fiction and our suggestion that pop culture is still culture and what this movie did to kind of state that stake, that claim. I'm going to talk about romance and some of the double entendre that I totally missed when I was watching it in the 80s, and maybe a little bit about gender as well, both femininity and masculinity, uh, as we get it from from from superman.
Speaker 1:So, but let me start with a recap of what happens. So this film it seems clear to me that the movie makers really did want to sort of state to the world that comic books because we didn't have the term graphic novel, to kind of clean up the comic book image back in 1978. And these movie makers really wanted to stake the claim that comic books were solid storytelling and worthy of full attention. And so they like, from the very beginning, from the credits, which have this kind of like text treatment that's slightly reminiscent of Star Wars, which was only a couple years old at that point, and the score from John Williams, which also feels vaguely reminiscent of Star Wars, which was only a couple years old at that point. And the score from John Williams, which also feels vaguely reminiscent of Star Wars, frankly, marlon Brando's name is the first one that comes in the credits. So you know, royalty when it comes to moviemaking in 1978. So, and he actually doesn't even have that big a role, but his name is first right, and the special effects, like. Anyway, sorry, I was supposed to give a recap.
Speaker 1:So from the very beginning, with Marlon Brando's name, and then we cut to a comic book, a black and white comic book that's being flipped and a child's voice reading it and talking about what's going on in the Daily Planet, and it's 1938. What's going on in the daily planet, and it's 1938. And then we cut to Krypton, or Krypton, as Marlon Brando says it, where there's a trial happening, which rewatching this movie has made me realize how much has derived from it, because this trial reminds me a lot of the trial at the beginning of Lilo and Stitch. So there's a trial happening with Marlon brando overseeing it. That's actually where we meet the three villains who will show up again in superman 2, but they get sent off in this weird little like album cover, uh like like floating through space and and and yelling um, and then we don't see them again in this movie.
Speaker 1:Fast forward, apparently fast forward 10 years, although they don't tell us that. I kind of put that together through other things that are. Apparently fast forward 10 years, although they don't tell us that. I kind of put that together through other things that are said Fast forward 10 years and Marlon Brando's Jarrell is telling the rest of the council like this planet is going to explode and we need to evacuate. And they're like, no, you're being unreasonable, the planet is just shifting its orbit, we're going to be fine. The planet is just shifting its orbit, we're going to be fine. And they basically are like you need to shut this down, whatever you're saying now, or we're going to lay on extreme sanctions. His baby son to survive the planet's destruction with all of the knowledge of the 28 known galaxies embedded in these crystals. So the baby.
Speaker 1:Apparently it takes three years ish to get from Krypton to Earth and baby Kal-El crash lands in an Iowa field right in front of the truck of the Kents. And they realize, well, martha, clark Kent realizes that you know, they've been praying for a child for so long and now here he is and the dad is like that's crazy, we can't keep him. Did you see where he came from? Who's like maybe four, five, somewhere in that range lifts the truck after the dad is changing a tire and the jack breaks and the truck is going to fall and crush the man. But the little baby Kal-El saves him. So they decide that they need to keep him so fast forward.
Speaker 1:Now it's 15 years later and Clark is 18, 17, 18. He's at a. He's at a football game and he's like the water boy and the high school kids are like real mean to him. He's got a crush on this girl but the bully kind of manages to drag her away and he runs home and show. And then we see the dad say you know, don't show off. We knew we needed to protect you. And so we get this sort of sense that he needs to keep it a secret, keep his powers a secret. The dad says I know you're here for a reason and it's not football. And so that's sort of where we're introduced to this like sense that he's keeping, yeah, the alter ego, and the sense that he needs to keep it secret for his own safety.
Speaker 1:Dad dies of a heart attack. He feels terrible. He's all these powers and he couldn't save him. And then in the middle of the night, the crystal this crystal that was in that was like one of the only things that survived in the escape pod that the baby was found in calls to him from the barn. So he goes out and it's glowing, it's this green shard. And he tells his mom I gotta go. She's like I knew this day was coming. It's really bizarre. He walks north like forever until it's just snowy tundra, tosses the green shard, really really far. It sinks down into the snow and then Elsa's ice castle comes up out of the snow. I'm telling you, this is reminding me.
Speaker 1:Um, I, I have a very vivid memory of the baby holding the truck up yeah, with, like, the red cape like tied around his waist, because the first scene he's fully naked and we get a full scene of this naked baby. Oh, I while naked child. I don't know that that would happen if this movie were made today, yeah, anyway. So elsa's ice palace comes up, that, and then when he goes in, he like figures out to like move some crystals into these little tubes, and then that activates something. And then there's there's marlon brando, again sort of explaining who he is and telling him, telling him his name, which he's never, he has never known. And that's where we get the fact that this is the fortress of solitude. Marlon brando tells him in this fortress of solitude, I will teach you. And then we are told that he takes a 12 year educational journey with dad to learn all of the knowledge of krypton, and then he gets a job at the daily planet it feels like a letdown it's it's yeah, the pacing is really really interesting.
Speaker 1:Like it's like it's it's yeah, the pacing is really really interesting. Like it's like a full hour into the movie before we see him in the costume. Wow, the origin story and the Iowa farm boy and Superman is casting because we have a different actor playing young Clark, oh, and then he shows up at the Daily Planet on his first day as Christopher Reeve.
Speaker 1:Wow, so it's actually a different actor playing young Clark. So it's his first day at the Daily Planet. So it's his first day at the daily planet. He's like very shy and clumsy and awkward. So it's still this six foot four, like gorgeous hunk of man, but he's got the glasses on and he's like constantly like pushing them up in this awkward sort of way and he's like gosh, I don't know, I don't know, and it's 1978, but he still says things like swell, which Lois calls him on. He's asks Perry White, the chief of the Daily Planet, if he can please have his page half of his paycheck sent to this address. And she says oh, he's probably having it. She says first Lois says that's your bookie, right? And Clark doesn't even understand what she means. And then she says, oh, no, no course You're having it sent to your white haired old mom. And Clark looks at her and says actually she's sort of silver haired. It's just like so adorable Anyway. So meanwhile the bad guy is Lex Luthor, who is his diablo, gene Hackman, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Gene Hackman as Lex Luthor. He's brilliant, brilliant, I mean like really brilliant. And ned baity is his very ineffective and just not smart minion they live in like sort of a flooded out subway station that he's got all decked out really fancy and he has this diabolical plan. He's got all decked out really fancy and he has this diabolical plan. He's buying up all this land in the desert, in the Sonoran Desert, sonoran, in the California desert. And he has this plan he's going to have a nuclear warhead like a missile sent into the San Andreas Fault which will make half of California, everything west of the San Andreas Fault, which will make like half of California, everything west of the San Andreas Fault, fall into the sea and make his property now beachfront property and much more valuable. This is his plan. This is the diabolical plan that Superman's going to have to thwart.
Speaker 2:I feel like I'm reminded of there's a Bugs Bunny cartoon showing him like taking a saw to Florida and just cutting it off. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's very cartoon logic, totally, totally so we see Lex Luthor's diabolical plan. Meanwhile Lois is, she is just all about the job. She just wants the story always, always, always. So she's taking a flight in a helicopter that the newspaper is providing what, uh? To go meet the the president. He's coming to metropolis, which is very clearly new york city, like they don't even pretend it's not new york city but they call it metropolis. And like a very basic pretend it's not New York City but they call it Metropolis. And like a very basic mistake it's not.
Speaker 1:Foul play happens and the helicopter, like is, loses control and is kind of like half hanging off of the top of this skyscraper. It's the skyscraper of the daily planet. So Clark is leaving and Lois's hat falls in front of him and he looks up and sees what's happening and then he's like you know, he's got a saver, so he goes and there's. Superman was so well established already that the movie makers were able to share these little jokes with us. It great like he looks at this phone booth, which is one of those ones that's just like a half like, like it's not an actual booth. So reeve is able to like kind of like look at the camera almost with a, with a smile or like a. You know he's not gonna change in there, so he changes in a revolving door, saves loisis, saves the helicopter. That's when he first sort of reveals himself really to the world.
Speaker 1:Lois asks who he is. He says a friend. And that's how then later he's able to sort of slip her a note like meet me, I'll be at your place at seven. Signed a friend. So she's there for an interview. Find a friend, so she's there for an interview. This is the scene that has like a lot more sexual innuendo than I picked up on as a child. So of course a reporter has, you know, a penthouse apartment with this giant like balcony, you know, like with a garden of course. So she's there waiting for him. Maybe she has family money, you don't know, sure, sure.
Speaker 1:He shows up. She says let's just start with some demographics, like how big are you? And then she says, I mean, I mean how tall. And then they're you know they're talking. She's asking him all these questions. And then she says something like is it true you can see through anything? And he says, yeah, actually that is true. And she says what color underwear am I wearing? So there's like she is laying it on real thick and she's dressed much more feminine than we've seen her today. She's not always all about the job. Well, when Superman is involved?
Speaker 2:she's not, and can you blame her? I I mean other than the wearing the underwear on the outside yeah, christopher reeves in that, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So we also learn one of his weaknesses he can't see her underwear because she's standing in front of a planter that's made of lead I what, anyway. So he can't see through lead. But then she walks a little bit away and he goes pink, and then she asks him if he likes pink. He does anyway, uh. So this scene sort of establishes the chemistry between them, and I believed it. It Honestly I really did.
Speaker 1:Shenanigans ensue, and Lex Luthor really is brilliant Figures out that kryptonite will take away his powers, steals a meteor, a meteorite that is in Addis Ababa, so that he can use it to basically take Superman's powers, not for himself, but just remove them from Superman and make him vulnerable.
Speaker 1:So, lex and his, he has two minions a woman who he always calls by her last name is Tessmacher, and then Otis, who is Ned Beatty, and they managed to change the coordinates for there's going to be a test of nuclear missiles. And they changed the coordinates for their destination with this very high-pitched message that no one aside from a dog could hear except for superman, and then tricks him into opening a the a lead container that contains the kryptonite, tosses him in his pool, which is really just sort of a flooded lobby of this subway station, and the nuclear weapons are already on their way, one to the san andreas fault and the other to hackensack, new jersey. Well, miss tessa mockers, test mockers mom lives in hackensack and she says that to lex and he looks at her and he looks at his watch and he just shakes his head like no, she does, she doesn't anymore, or something like that.
Speaker 2:So why hackensack new jersey?
Speaker 1:because there needed to be a reason for miss test.
Speaker 2:Mocker to betray lex okay there is no like there is no other there's no, no reason given it yeah, just like luther did not like, doesn't like hackensack. Yeah, you know, after I went to elizabeth new jersey for the first time and I was like 10 when we were leaving, I was was like if I never come back to Elizabeth New Jersey in my life, it'll be too soon.
Speaker 1:Well, apparently Lex felt that way about Hackensack.
Speaker 2:I think the number of towns in New Jersey that people feel that way about is higher per capita than most states. But anyway, continue.
Speaker 1:So Ms Tasmacher decides to save him so that he will save her mom. And then there's this weird moment where she like pulls him out of the pool and it's going to take the. The meteorite is on like a big old chain around his neck and she's going to take it off, but then she hesitates and then kisses him and then takes it off and he says why did you kiss me first? And she says well, I didn't think you let me after I took it off. And he says why did you kiss me first? And she says well, I didn't think you let me after I took it off. And he reaches out and cups her cheek and then leaves. She makes him promise I know it's really weird, so we can dig into that for a minute. She makes him promise that he will save her mom first and he's like but, but Lois, but Jimmy. And she's like you have to promise me and I know you'll keep your word because you never lie. So he flies off in the direction of Hackensack and, like, redirects the missile into outer space and then he turns tail and heads over to California. He saves some kids in a school bus on the Golden Gate Bridge which is about to fall. He saves Jimmy Olsen who's at the Hoover Dam which is busting because, like these huge earthquakes, because the missile hit the fault, huge earthquakes everywhere. Like you know, towns are like whole towns are, are threatened by rivers that are, you know, sort of busting through and the and because of the dam. So he's, he's all over California saving stuff.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile Lois is driving and a new fault Like she, she's running out of gas. She pulls into a gas station when the earthquakes start because of the missile and the whole gas station just explodes. So she drives off, she's got very little gas. Telephone poles are you know electric poles are falling on the road around her. She's driving around them. It's very scary and she's like pulling through. And then a new fault opens up and she has no gas and the car just falls in and then like avalanche, dirt falling into the car and she suffocates basically. So by the time he gets to her she's already gone.
Speaker 1:He pulls the car out, he pulls her out and he's devastated, crying like, gently holding her dead body, and is like no, and like flies up into space and that's the thing you remember.
Speaker 1:He flies around really, really, really, really fast around the globe and like changes the orbit. While he's doing this, by the way, while he's doing this, by the way, he's hearing both his Earth dad saying you were here for something special, and his krypton, kryptonite dad, marlon Brando, saying you are forbidden from interfering in the goings on on Earth. So he's hearing both of those things and he decides to go with his earth dad and he changes the rotation of the earth to turn back time by maybe 10 minutes or so, and then turns the rotation back, which even kitchen table logic doesn't work. Like I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for a comic book movie, but even just like time is not related to the rotation of the Earth. I mean it is. That's how we mark it, but that's not how it actually flows. Like I think if you change the rotation of the Earth, you would kill everything on it.
Speaker 2:That's, I can remember like Dad saying like yeah, everything would fly off the earth if you change the rotation, and like I don't remember exactly how he came to that conclusion, but I was just like yeah, it was even as a kid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does not hold up to even a little bit of scrutiny. It's up there with why hack and sack? Yeah, ok, it's ineffable. So it works. And he, he. But then he has to. We do see the sort of zip of light that is superman, like putting the rotation back in the right direction. And then he goes back to find lois, that fault that she had fallen into no longer exists. He's like, are you okay? And she's like, yeah, no, thanks to you. And so that is, you know, resolved that in order to stop california from falling off the face of the map. He actually flies down into the earth's magma and like pushes up a plate or something like you just see like lots of like gold, red orange around him, while he's like pushing something up. So I, I even forgot about that. That was, that was before he changed the rotation of the earth. So he delivers lex and otis to a prison and says warden, please keep these two here until they can sit trial. We see, because that's how the uh the justice system works.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, well, yeah, yeah. And we do see lois, toward the end, be like where was clark and sort of say you know they're never in the same place at the same time. Nah, that's the craziest idea you've ever had loisis Lane. We do see Clark get friend zoned again by Lois. So that's Superman the movie. So I feel like I'm forgetting the very end of it, but I'm just going to go with it. So some of the things I want to talk about, I want to talk about gender. Lois is the only I want to talk about gender Superman, like you know well, there's in some ways there is this test marker.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true that is true, and Martha Kent is kind of furniture, yeah, so it does not pass the Bechtel test, sure. So so I want to talk about gender. I do want to talk briefly about consent, because of that scene with him and Ms Tessmacher. I want to talk about the pacing too in this sort of original superhero movie and the storytelling piece of it. Yeah, and then we'll see where our conversation goes. So we'll start with gender. You're right, lois is not the only woman in this film and there are other, like extras, even in the newsroom. She's not even the only woman in the newsroom, she's just the only one. She's the only actual player, like everybody else is non-player characters in the newsroom. They're just sort of background extras.
Speaker 1:There is martha kent, there is also I don't even know if she has a name, but his kryptonite, his krypton mom, is also briefly in the film. But interesting actually, I'm going to stay with the mom because we're given her. She's holding baby Kal-El in those early scenes where Jel is talking about how they're going to save their son and that's the only hope. And then when he actually builds the or he doesn't build it but causes the fortress of solitude to grow and meets marlon, brando's jararell mom is nowhere to be seen. So he's sharing, you know, all of the secrets of the universe, but it's very much father to son, not parents to son, father to son, so that there's some.
Speaker 1:There's interesting gender dynamics there which then I mentioned before we started recording. I'll just name it quickly here. Like in terms of happy accident in Superman two, apparently I mean, I don't know one speculates they couldn't afford the $3 million that they paid Marlon Brando again, and so the mom actually does show up repeatedly in the Fortress of Solitude and self-identifies as the archivist of the Krypton people. So because we couldn't afford dad, I guess mom actually gets to be like an important female role model Agency yeah.
Speaker 1:So I mean I guess I'm glad we got there so. So there's something really traditionally gendered about that transfer of knowledge which is downright christian in some of it. Like jarell says something about like sending his only son when because the mom is like why, earth, they're so far behind us, they're so primitive, and he says something about how, you know, then his gifts will be put to good use and I'm giving them my only son, which I also did not pick up on as a kid.
Speaker 2:That's.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting, particularly considering the fact that the original artists and creators were Jewish Siegel, and Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster were the originators of.
Speaker 2:The Superman punched Nazis originally. It was very intentionally Jewish, like punched nazis originally, like this that was. It was very intentionally jewish for those who recognized it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, so that's that's interesting, that then that the end, like you get any chosen one stories, it's going to be, there's gonna have christianity, yeah, um, I mean you get that with the matrix, but I just I find that really interesting, considering I some of this is because, like because I do know that Superman is a story rooted in American Judaism, or at least American Jewish experience, american Judaism, or at least American Jewish experience.
Speaker 2:American Jewish experience of like the early 20th century in the buildup to World War II, so like I think of it as hours, so like that. That's part of why I'm just like but but but why would you do that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's just one moment, but yeah, yeah. So that transfer of knowledge, very much father to son, though fast forward to 1978 and the newsroom of the Daily Planet and we have Perry White as the chief he is the head there, male, but Lois is the undeniable and explicitly named best reporter. She has some trouble spelling, apparently. We're shown that she misspells things often Mm-hmm, possibly subverting that knowledge from so father to son.
Speaker 2:I find that okay. The fact that she is like undeniably self-identified and identified by others as the best writer, the best reporter in the newsroom, is kind of like the give with one hand, like yeah, here you go. But then the fact that she struggles with spelling, which is often a coded morality, because people who are good at spelling consider themselves to be morally superior to people who are not, and so it's like like she's hot but clumsy, yeah, like you can still feel superior to her. Yeah, yeah, definitely, which I like. I find that just really interesting, because my first thought was like oh, that's great that they have her, that she struggles with spelling, because like that's, you know, it's just a brain quirk, and like like in 1978 it was harder, like you know, you don't have spell check on typewriters, but you know, whatever, it's not a big deal. It's just like the english is freaking weird and we have weird spellings of things, and like that's why you have editors. But that's not what it was. Like I know that's not what they were doing.
Speaker 1:Like they were not, like no, you're exactly right, you're exactly right, you're exactly right. And because she's constantly sort of asking people how do you spell um? And, like part of the, the humor of the first first, she's writing an ode to spring and she says to Jimmy how do you spell massacre?
Speaker 2:And that's a weird word because it's from the French there's like it should have a K in it.
Speaker 1:She also asks him is there one T or two in bloodletting in her ode to spring? So, or two in bloodletting in her ode to spring?
Speaker 2:So why are they assigning the best reporter an ode to spring.
Speaker 1:Well, it actually ends up being a story about a serial rapist, but Harry lets her know there's only one P in rapist. So yeah, no, you're exactly right with what was happening, with the fact that she's bad at spelling. She's cute but clumsy. That's exactly it.
Speaker 1:That's exactly it. Yeah, yeah. So she is very much are not like other girls, feminist hero she is. She has no peers as a female writer and you know she's a pulitzer prize winner or striving to be, and she's also. She's also. You know you said I think before we started recording you were like is it margo kidder? I get her mixed up with karen allen.
Speaker 1:She is very much like marion from indiana jones and the and the raiders of the lost ark. She's got this abrasiveness and this sort of like rough edge to her. She's which makes her worldly. That's what. There's a worldliness to her that is kind of hard-nosed and helps define her as this good journalist. But she has no peers and there is a certain degree of when I'm thinking about gender and the performance of gender, there is a certain degree of masculine coding to her, or at least less feminine. She's mostly wearing trousers, not exclusively in the newsroom. She does wear like a skirt suit, but it's a suit, though when she's meeting Superman it's this like flowy sheer with a underslip kind of a dress. So we see sort of the performance of gender based on to like how she wants to be perceived, which reads as true, you know.
Speaker 2:Well, that that reminds me of something we were talking about with the X-Files in the first few seasons, gillian Anderson as Scully wore. Now some of it had to do with early nineties fashions but she wore like kind of boxy clothing. But that actually fit with the character in that, you know, she's five foot two and an attractive woman who came into law enforcement from a weird direction and like what was in medicine, which is also male dominated. So, to be taken seriously, she wears very severe clothing. Yeah, so like that that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That fits in a way like that is just it's helpful thinking about. Like you know, we also just recently talked about the fifth element and how, like every woman you see is just cleavage forward, yeah, and so like it's. Actually, this is a more realistic portrayal of women in that we have to dress for the situation often yeah, dress for the situation often yeah.
Speaker 1:So, while we're talking about that, though, let's talk about costuming and Clark slash Superman, right Cause, like, one of the things that you point out is he's wearing his underwear on the outside. But I think, I mean, he was the guy that gave us superheroes in tights, you know, but I'm really like wrestling with this. You know, like, in some ways, christopher Reeve as Clark Kent in a three-piece suit is more masculine than Christopher Reeve in a unitard with underwear and a belt on the outside. But that is not at all the message that we are given. Right, three-piece suit.
Speaker 1:Clark Kent is like Milk toast, totally milk toast and treated that way by Lois. She barely looks at him. That's how we believe that she doesn't see the resemblance, because she barely sees him. He's furniture. He's a nice guy, you know, but he's not someone that she would be interested in sexually. And then there's this guy. I mean, I suppose there is the masculinity of the form, fittingness of the unitard, so that we can actually see the muscles in his thighs, we can see the muscles in his chest. I mean, especially later versions of Superman and Batman, where they actually, like, have the molded body armor to, like give more muscular definition where it exists. Christopher Reeve didn't have the benefit of all that.
Speaker 2:Well, christopher Reeve didn't have the benefit of all that. No, well, it's interesting because like that seems more like sexually interesting in a queer coded way rather than heterosexual coded way.
Speaker 1:Agreed, agreed, though you know there is no hint of that. Oh, no, no, in this movie he is the object of sexual attention and desire from women, not just Lois and not just Miss Tessmacher, I mean. There's not even a hint that queer people exist in this movie.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Well, they weren't invented until 1986. Obviously.
Speaker 1:Oscar Wilde notwithstanding.
Speaker 2:Rocky Horror Picture Show notwithstanding.
Speaker 1:So there's something like really interesting about what we as a culture understood to be masculine when thinking about Clark Kent versus well, the two costumes, yeah, and how he is received and superman cries when lois dies, he does.
Speaker 2:Does clark kent ever tear up?
Speaker 1:like clark doesn't have. Yes, yes, that's a different actor, though, remember that's a different actor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, clark kent doesn't have much of a personality, to be honest. Yeah, I mean he's. I think not that superman does either. Honestly, I think christopher reed does a better job than I remember. Like in my memory he's very stiff. He's not. Yeah, he's not. He actually, I think, does a pretty good job and I think there was sort of a directorial choice to cause he's. He's a symbol, I mean he's fighting for truth, justice in the American way, for God's sake.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, like a symbol, doesn't have feelings.
Speaker 2:Well, and also you know, just within the world of the story. Well, and also you know, just within the world of the story, clark Kent having not much of a personality, is protective coloration? Yes, like that ensures that no one is paying close attention to him.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, you know it's interesting too. At one moment in the first movie, as Clark, he's supposed to have a date with her right after Superman's interview with the how big are you? Question. So he shows up in his suit and he's like I thought I was going to take you out. And she goes to change. And so he's in her living room, he takes the glasses off and his comportment changes and he's like you know, lois, I was thinking, and he's clearly going to tell her who he is. And then he thinks better of it and puts his glasses back on and decides to maintain the fiction. So, you know, there's this like teasing, there's this teasing of him having these feelings. We know there is real chemistry between him and Lois and this bizarre triangle, which is actually not a triangle, but they, they treat it as one. I mean, lois is like don't be jealous of him.
Speaker 2:You know you could never live up to him.
Speaker 1:She actually says that yeah, yeah, there's something, I don't know. There's something really really fascinating about that, that triangle, that then when we think about the lessons that it's giving us, when I bring Superman two into it which I'm not going to bring it in for too long but there's a moment in Superman two where he actually voluntarily gives up his powers so that he can be with Lois. She knows who he is and he wants to be with her. He loves her, she loves him back, and so he voluntarily gives up his powers. And in the scene where they do that the special effect that they do, there's like a ghost of an image of him in the Superman suit that stays in the chamber that took the powers away and kind of like slumps against the wall and then Clark, in just regular 1978 clothes, walks out of the chamber.
Speaker 1:And I think in superman 2 in particular, one of the things that roger ebert said beautifully is in his contemporaneous review is that the heart of the disguise was not the glasses, it was the behavior, was the personality, and so part of the lesson is that we all have a Superman inside us, which is really nice. That's just a really nice lesson. It also reads so much more poignant now knowing that Christopher Reeve lost his powers later in his life from the accident that left him paraplegic. So re-watching that scene in superman 2 when he gives up his powers and sort of superman is left in the chamber, I don't know it. It really tugged at my heartstrings in a different way because of Christopher Reeve's story.
Speaker 2:That's a bit of an aside, but I just thought I'd mention it. Well, that's one of the things like it's a consistent through line in a lot of our conversations is where we end up conflating the actor and the role, and it's because often the actor becomes the role in our hearts and minds. So like Christopher Reeve is Superman to me, so like Henry Cavill has played him and Dean Cain has played him and Tom Welling has played him and like there's so many other actors who've played him and well, but they are not Superman.
Speaker 2:To me, christopher Reeve is and will always be Superman. That is the image that I will always see of who he looks like, what he is. That Anthony Hopkins is Hannibal Lecter, even though that character has been recast several times. And so, considering the fact that Superman isn't so much a character as a symbol, and then there is this very, very symbolic loss of power for that actor who seems like, from what I understand, I remember reading stories about half after the accident, um, he and Robin Williams were like roommates at Juilliard or something like that. And so Robin Williams came to visit him and made him laugh, which is like also knowing the end of Robin Williams's life.
Speaker 2:Like it just, it just tugs at my heartstrings thinking about how, like this man who brought so much joy and who ended his life with with this horrible despair, and this man who stood for truth, justice, the American way, and seemed to always, when given a choice, do the best he could and the right thing, that they found comfort together in laughter after a horrible accident.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's just, it's. It's like I wouldn't believe it if it were fiction, but there is something so poignant about it and it's the reason why we tell these stories. Yeah, about it, and it's the reason why we tell these stories. It's a lot closer to home here than if it had been, you know, a different actor who'd had that horrendous accident, or you know, you know if there had been other, a different situation. But we tell these stories so we can make sense of those moments and have have like that moment of connection and like this is what it's like, this is what it feels like there's something comforting too, and and resonant in the idea that superman is still superman, even with the outest powers yes right that for christopher reeve, right like there's something I think, in that and and for for us.
Speaker 1:That's actually not what the movie says in Superman 2. He goes back and gets his powers back, yeah, but you know, in sort of the broader context there is something of that in Christopher Reeve's life.
Speaker 2:He's still Superman, even without his powers. Life, it makes it clear to me that you know, the ability to walk and being able-bodied is not what makes someone a man. Yeah, amen, because what a man.
Speaker 1:Amen, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And to go from like he was cast because look at him, yeah. From like he was cast because look at him, yeah To. I am impressed by who he was when you know something that all of us would be afraid of has happened to him. Yeah, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you wanted to talk a little bit about consent so you wanted to talk a little bit about consent.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, just briefly. I mean that it it doesn't come up. Really, you know, lois is kind of putting the moves on him. Never really happens. He's kind of put as clark, he's kind of putting the moves on lois very clumsily. It never really happens.
Speaker 1:We do see them actually consummate off screen their relationship in Superman 2, but in Superman 1, never. So it really only comes up in this moment with Miss Tessmacher and it's really interesting that it happens in that direction with a woman. You know sort of kissing him, kissing a man without consent. You know sort of kissing him, kissing a man without consent. And it's interesting his response. He's not angry at first, he's just confused and then when she says, because I didn't think you let me like the way he just tenderly sort of cups her cheek and chin, like it's clearly a nonverbal kind of empathy and forgiveness which is I don't know what to do with it.
Speaker 1:I don't, I don't know ultimately, like I don't know that the movie makers actually wanted us to take too much from it, but overthinking is what we do. Yeah, I don't know what I movie makers actually wanted us to take too much from it, but overthinking is what we do. I don't know what lesson I got, like little baby Tracy watching this, right, I was two when this movie came out. I'm sure I didn't see it when I was two, but so I saw it when I was six. You know something in that range, right? So what did little baby Tracy take away from that moment? It like it doesn't, it doesn't feel good, right, like there's. Not that, the not that Tess Mocker found him attractive, not that she even wanted to kiss him, that's all right but that she used while he was completely incapacitated, hesitated to remove. When, when people are going to die.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Including her mother, so that she could kiss him. And then there's this like moment of understanding between them. That makes it okay and I think there's almost a humor in it because it is a woman as the perpetrator, aggressor, yeah, as the aggressor in this lack of consensual touching there's. There's because of that flipping of the, of the typical, well, it becomes humorous, which is standard. That's like, yeah, well-worn roof, and there are. There are also, like back to my conversations about masculinity.
Speaker 1:There are also things then to be said about lex, who is her boyfriend. I mean, it's a, it's a weird ass relationship, but they they do seem to be have some sort of romantic connection. So there's a, there's a a level of cuckolding in her going after superman, who is lex's rival. He's the one who put him in the pool with the kryptonite. So there are all these layers to that, one kind of throwaway moment that was really just added nothing to the story. Yeah, I mean, she needed to betray Lex. That's why the thing was going to Hackett's act, because we needed a way for him, for Superman, to get out of this predicament and she was the ticket out. But that whole piece was gratuitous and I'm not. I'm not comfortable with what was undergirding it. You know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it's a really bizarre. I'm thinking about the actress who plays Ms Tessmacher. Is she like conventionally attractive? Yes, okay, very much so, cause that's, that's like part of what I'm thinking like with him, like cupping her cheek, it feels like, well, yeah, I get it Like I affect everyone this way, you know, if it's like like Lucifer's response, yeah, in the TV show, so like it's not your fault, honey, don't worry. Yeah, this is what I'm wondering. I'm wondering how that would have played differently if she weren't conventionally attractive.
Speaker 1:Actually you're reminding me. There's another scene that I want to put in conversation with this. There's a scene when they're working on trying to reset the coordinates for the to go to the San Andreas fault, they distract the sailors and soldiers who are driving this thing in the desert by staging a car accident. And then she is lying on the ground in like next to this car that's. That's totally destroyed, as if she'd been thrown from it. And so all these soldiers come up and she's like lying there and he's like check a pulse.
Speaker 1:And the one soldier says to the commanding officer like what do we do, sir? He said, well, call an ambulance and until it gets here, I recommend chest massages and mouth to mouth. And the soldier's like all right. And then the commanding officer's like no, I'll do it, I won't ask a soldier to do something that I won't do. And so the commanding officer kneels down next to her prone body, has the soldiers like ring around the two of them and then says about face, so they're facing away and blocking our view of what he's doing on the ground to her.
Speaker 1:And then we just see her later like she's, she's cool, like she shows up in the the part of the whole scheme, like lex is driving the ambulance that comes and picks her up, and so we don't actually see anything happen, but like the implication that these soldiers are, like super duper, excited to perform cpr and mouth to mouth on this unconscious woman. Yeah, that happens before the scene with the dubious consent kiss, not dubious, non-non-consensual kiss. So yes, she is absolutely conventionally attractive, very much so, and her body has been used as distraction and bait sort of earlier in the film, which I didn't. I wasn't thinking about until you just asked about her looks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, and then that also puts the conversation of those two scenes like. That makes it interesting that Superman's response is like forgiveness and acceptance.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure. I mean he doesn't know that, he doesn't know that that happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no. No. No, I'm not saying but the audience does, but it does sort of add to the conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah we do for sure, Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:I mean, and some of it is like it's a 45-year-old movie and like we didn't have these conversations about consent back then, but it's also like you got to think about, like they had to put that in there Now. I mean, some of it is they put extra stuff to make the ticking clock even louder and, you know, maybe like that's another, like establishing his heterosexual bona fides, since he is wearing tights. He is wearing tights, but it is. It's. It's bizarre. Like what were were they thinking? Like why did they think they put this in there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean like relief, like it's just very bizarre.
Speaker 1:I suspect it's the cuckolding piece of it. Okay, like the additional way bizarre.
Speaker 2:I suspect it's the cuckolding piece of it. Okay, like the additional way to make it entirely clear that superman, superman is the better man?
Speaker 1:yes, that's what I think, yeah, yeah. Well, we've been talking for a long minute now, so I hope I can remember everything we talked about, but you'll help me out here. Yeah, so there's a lot going on in this movie. I think the the easiest thing, the least complicated thing to talk about is the way in which this movie started the trend of superhero films being sort of mainstream, like it's not just for the geeks anymore. In fact, what is it like? 80% of the films made now are superhero movies. I know it's not really 80%. Please don't correct me. It feels like 80%. Yeah, you don't need to correct me, I know it's not actually 80%.
Speaker 2:It's 72.
Speaker 1:It's a lot, it's a lot, it's a lot and, interestingly though, there is so much that is derivative of this movie. In many ways it is very different than the comic book movies that we get now, especially in terms of the pacing and the storytelling. I feel like we always start in the middle of a battle now, like the establishing scene is always some big action scene, now With humor. That was not the case in this film. The pacing almost feels too slow, to be honest, like we don't see the blue uniform, the blue tights, until like a full, I don't know know 45 minutes or an hour into the film, which is really fascinating. Looking backward, this movie staked the claim that comic book storytelling should be taken seriously, as serious as marlon brando, as serious as a score from john williams.
Speaker 1:There's interesting things to look back on about gender, both with lois lane and and actually with miss tess mocker as sort of a prize and a proof of a rivalry lois showed us very realistically, which also I think is a is a point in this movie Like metropolis is New York city.
Speaker 1:They fly around the statue of Liberty, like it is New York city and there's not sort of the gritty comic book graphic depiction of street scenes. They look like street scenes and we see I can't like the Coca-Cola sign from oh no, that's in, that's in series, that's in the second one, we but we see sort of iconic images of New York. It does not feel like an alternate universe, it feels like our universe and Lois Lane's costume reflects that as well, and the ways in which she sort of masculinizes when she's working and feminizes when she's trying to have a date with Superman. There's also interesting things with gender presentation around Clark Kent versus Superman costumes. Right In ways that, looking at it with today's eyes, superman's costume looks sort of queer coded, with the like access to his bulging muscles well visual, the only thing that bulges but that was not at all.
Speaker 1:In fact, as you point out, like we're given pretty clear heterosexual bona fides here that he is, you know he's a woman's man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's all about the ladies.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, ll Cool Superman.
Speaker 2:What did you say? Ll Cool Superman. Ladies love Cool Superman.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot of sexual innuendo. The little baby tracy totally missed. And then there's this weird I put these two scenes in conversation around consent where and miss test mocker, where she is used as bait and just has to lie there where these, while these soldiers give her cpr and mouth to mouth and then then also holds Superman incapacitated for longer than necessary so that she may give him a kiss because she knew he wouldn't let her if she didn't, which is was a gratuitous scene and with today's eyes, is gross. Yeah, I am sure I forgot something.
Speaker 2:well, just a little bit about how it leans into the idea of superman as as a jesus figure with uh with, yeah, some language yeah, language, um, and how that feels very weird knowing the, the the jewish origins yeah, the american jewish origins of of superman oh, I also forgot.
Speaker 1:We're given lois as a very competent, exceptional writer, but then that's taken away a little bit when we're shown that she has trouble with basic spelling, so that I think your analysis of that is really spot on that. That allows us to continue to feel superior to her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my realization, cause I've always been a good speller and, like I, definitely bought into that moral superiority. Until sometime in grad school, I think I had this realization that it was like. Sometime in grad school, I think I had this realization that it was like this is just how my brain works.
Speaker 2:I haven't done anything to be good at this, and the people who aren't good at this haven't done anything wrong. They're just their brains work differently and so like why do I consider this to be something that makes me superior? Like it just like. And. And the English language is completely made up, and it's also so weird. We steal from whatever language comes our way.
Speaker 1:Totally, totally.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and that's something that I've had like my eyes opened on in terms of, like I'll see people acting morally superior because they can they're good spellers and realizing, like just how bizarre that is, that that is something that we measure ourselves with. So that's part of the reason why I clocked that right away. It was just like, oh yeah, that's. That's not like hey, it's great, you can be a writer even if you don't spell well. No, that's a like see, she's not better than you yeah, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:So I guess the last thing that I'll say and then please feel free to add whatever you want is like looking back at this movie as the originator of superhero films. But also there's so much visually derives from this. You know, I I named two animated movies with lilo and stitch uh from the trial, and then elsa's ice castle with the, the fortress of solitude. There's also a moment in in megamind when he's oh yeah, yeah, I was thinking that, like he's totally based on marlon brando's jor-el the the when megamind pretends to be the like, the mentor.
Speaker 1:Uh, with the like, it even looks like marlon brando's jor-el, which I didn't clock when I watched megamind, which I love, by the way, yeah, yeah, it's interesting watching it now again, I'm like oh oh, oh, it's the guy from megamind the other thing you mentioned.
Speaker 2:It starts with like a child's voice and um, and so that sounds like the very beginning of black panther, the first black panther movie.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, um, because that's like that really stuck with me that that moment and I hadn't realized, like I'm sure it's not that unusual to start with a child speaking, but well, I think, in particular because it was sort of a telling a story and in this case, in this case, it was a harkening back to the comic book origins which are associated with kids. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, all right, um, so, listeners, I found it on amazon streaming. It is streaming for free on max if you are a max subscriber I'm not, but it's definitely worth worth the two hours if you want to go back and remind yourself of this film and we didn't even mention the weird poem that uh oh yeah, lois lane does the voiceover.
Speaker 1:Lois lane does this voiceover while she's flying with him about. You know, could you be mine? And it's weird. It's real weird and also reminiscent of the carpet ride in aladdin yeah, all of these animated movies drawing from this movie. Anyway, what did we miss y'all? What's your hot take on Superman, the movie? I would really love to hear it. Or what did we make you think of in our conversation? Please let us know. You can email us at guygirlsmedia at gmailcom, or find us on our website, guygirlsmediacom, or find us on socials also I'd love to know if anyone else thought nuns lived in powers, because was it just us?
Speaker 1:it was probably just us. I think it was probably just us, yeah, um, so what are we doing next time? I don.
Speaker 2:Next time I am going to be bringing you my deep thoughts on Wayne's World.
Speaker 1:Party time Excellent, excellent.
Speaker 2:And I do have a listener comment oh great From Becky on our Breakfast Club episode. She says I liked Allison much better with copious dandruff than I did with the Maybelline Bond Bell aesthetic. I was like yeah because she was herself when she was, you know, copiously dandruffed. Yeah, Instead of you know, cookie cutter, pretty 80s girl.
Speaker 1:A brunette version of Molly.
Speaker 2:Ringwald yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So Thanks, em, see you next time. See you next time. See you next time. Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy. But don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?