Looking good, Tracie! Feeling good, Emily!
On this week’s Deep Thoughts, Emily analyzes Trading Places, the film that taught her what a short sale is, how a bookie works, and that she is most definitely a money nerd. While the film offers a pointed critique of capitalism and racism, it undercuts its own message with the truly weird train/costume party scene and the random bikini-clad women on the beach at the end. Tracie and Emily also tell the story of how Jamie Lee Curtis happened to be at Emily’s wedding (really!).
Pour yourself a glass of frozen concentrated orange juice and listen!
Content warning: Mention of implied rape of an antagonist
Mentioned in this episode:
https://crossingthethemes.wordpress.com/2021/12/31/film-analysis-trading-places/
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/trading-places-1983
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
Looking good, Tracie! Feeling good, Emily!
On this week’s Deep Thoughts, Emily analyzes Trading Places, the film that taught her what a short sale is, how a bookie works, and that she is most definitely a money nerd. While the film offers a pointed critique of capitalism and racism, it undercuts its own message with the truly weird train/costume party scene and the random bikini-clad women on the beach at the end. Tracie and Emily also tell the story of how Jamie Lee Curtis happened to be at Emily’s wedding (really!).
Pour yourself a glass of frozen concentrated orange juice and listen!
Content warning: Mention of implied rape of an antagonist
Mentioned in this episode:
https://crossingthethemes.wordpress.com/2021/12/31/film-analysis-trading-places/
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/trading-places-1983
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I will be discussing the 1983 film Trading Places with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and with you, let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come over, think with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Speaker 1:So, tracy, I feel like I've seen this movie with you. I'm not sure, but tell me what you know about Trading Places like I've seen this movie with you.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure, but tell me what you know about Trading Places. Yeah, I don't remember when I saw it and I don't think I've seen it more than maybe twice, and it's been a long time. And so the thing that came to mind first when you told me that we were going to be talking about Trading Places, was Jamie Lee Curtis's boobs. They are very nice. That's the first thing that came to mind, and then I started thinking about uh, and then I remember Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd, and um the bet between um Waldorf and Statler, um Randolph and Mortimer whatever, but close enough.
Speaker 2:those Muppets that sit up in the balcony made a bet for a dollar to ruin Eddie Murphy's life and and, yeah, that's about it. That's what I remember. Like I don't have any. I remember liking the film, but I don't have a strong sense of what was in it, aside from those things. So not that much, honestly. But I'm curious to hear from you like why are we talking about this one? Why is this one important to you? Because this is not one that we shared as like a deep, foundational pillar.
Speaker 1:So this movie, along with the book the Westing Game by Ellen Raskin, were little baby Emily's introduction to investing. Listeners may know that I am a writer specializing in personal finance. I've been doing this for 13 years and I am a money nerd, without ever having really realized that that's what I was until I started doing this writing, because I have always considered myself very literary, the wind blowing the cape behind me, and so it never really occurred to me that my interest in money wasn't shared by other people. But I was very interested and that was part of what made this film really fascinating to me, in addition to it being funny and in addition to it being like a very well-made kind of like farce and romp, and I can recall feeling the sense of triumph when I finally got what the scheme was that Aykroyd and Murphy managed to handle in the end, because it is a little complex and the movie, to its credit, does not explain it.
Speaker 1:And so people who are not very knowledgeable about the stock market and how trading works can be forgiven for being like okay, they did something and now they won. And for me I remember like okay, but how did that work? Okay, but why. And once I finally like, oh okay, I get it, I get what they did, I get it, I get it. It was just like this moment of like I'm in the grownup club now as a kid. So I really, really enjoyed it. Now, this was a movie I don't remember. The first time I saw it. I definitely did not watch it from beginning to end.
Speaker 2:It was one of the movies that was like on TV and you caught bits of it. Back when they used to show the same movie like over and over and, over and over again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah and so I saw I can't even tell you the first time I saw it complete, but this is one that I returned to many, many times and it's one of the movies that when we used to turn on the TV and watch what was on. If it was on, I'd be like oh okay, this is what I'm doing this afternoon. Yeah, because I just found it very funny and enjoyable and, and again, I find the money aspect of it, the investment aspect of it, and like even the investment advice in it, to be very compelling, cool.
Speaker 2:All right, well, remind me. I know there's more than boobs in a short sale, but how do we get there? Walk me through the plot Philadelphia, he is unbelievably privileged.
Speaker 1:He lives in this gorgeous townhouse like Brownstone but I don't know if they call them Brownstones in Philadelphia with a butler who takes care of all of his needs, although I did find myself thinking, because he's the butler, he's the valet and he's the chauffeur and I'm like, well, they are saving some money there. So we meet him and he has a stick up his ass. It's very clear from the beginning and he is kind of a jerk to his butler, played by Denham Elliott, whose name is Coleman. We then meet Winthorpe's employers, played by Don Amici, that is Mortimer, and Ralph Bellamy is Randolph. They have an even huger house, an even more gorgeous place, they are surrounded by servants and they are in an argument on their way into work in their limo that they take to work. Because Randolph is reading the New Scientist and it's talking about nature versus nurture and he really believes that it's all about the environment. And Don Amici's Mortimer is like no, no, it's all in the genes, and so this is kind of an ongoing argument they have, we see them do some investing, we see like how they kind of respond to each other, how they make their decisions.
Speaker 1:And then we meet Eddie Murphy's Billy Ray Valentine. He is a kind of two-bit hustler. He is on a little platform on wheels pretending to be Vietnam vets who has lost his legs, and he is outside of the club that the Dukes since Randolph and Mortimer Duke the Dukes belong to and trying to get money from them. Obviously, eddie Murphy is black, while these other characters we've met are white and the Duke brothers treat him terribly and then go into the club. Winthorpe Dane Aykroyd's Winthorpe arrives at the club and gets them to sign the paychecks which shows you just how old this movie is and on his way out he bumps into Eddie Murphy and drops his briefcase. Eddie Murphy picks up the briefcase to hand back to him and Aykroyd starts like oh my God, thief, he's stealing from me and calls the police and there's this ridiculous running around in the club and that ends with a truly funny scene my 13-year-old was in the room when it happened where Eddie Murphy goes under a table and he finally like he's pulled out and there's like eight police guns on him and he gives this big smile. He's like is there a problem, officers? His timing is just so perfect and my, my son cracked up. I cracked up. In any case, at that point Randolph and Mortimer talk to each other saying like, hey, this is a perfect time to make that experiment. We could switch, we could trade places between Winthorpe and Valentine. And they bet each other that Winthorpe will turn to a life of crime and Valentine will become a model employee by switching places. And they say the usual amount, yes, the usual amount. From there they go about ruining Dan Aykroyd's life. They plant money on him that is supposedly stolen. They charge him for it. Then their operative talks to a police officer played by Frank Oz, by the way, so Miss Piggy is a corrupt cop in this and asks him to plant PCP on Winthrop's jacket. And so he is booked for that.
Speaker 1:And then the next morning, when Winthrop's fiance comes to bail him out, the same operative hires Jamie Lee Curtis's Ophelia, who is just getting out of jail because she's a prostitute. So she had whatever she had to do. She's getting out and he offers her $100 to pretend to be in a relationship with Winthorpe and ask him for drugs in front of the fiance. Long story short, he ends up going home with her. She says I'll help you out because she believes him. A lot of people are not believing him because he's now. They take his clothes from him and he's now wearing whatever castoffs they had at the police station. She looks at his hands and she's like you have soft hands and manicured nails. You've never done hard day's work in your life. I believe you when you tell me all this stuff so I'll help you get back on your feet in exchange for five figures. When you're back on your feet so they never say which five figures I'm like. I hope it was for more than 10 grand babe.
Speaker 2:It was the 80s, though, so.
Speaker 1:Yes, and she is shown to be remarkably financially savvy, which we'll get to. Meanwhile, the Duke brothers bail Valentine out of prison and they take him to Winthorpe's home, which they own, and Coleman the butler is their employee, not Winthorpe's, and in fact Winthorpe's fiance is their grandniece. So one of the lessons here is you should not let your job own you For reals. So they bail him out, they take him to winthrop's home, they tell him this is your home now and he is really concerned and like wary and doesn't believe them and he starts to like like he breaks a yeah, I remember the base breaking because they're like oh, you just made us money because we insured it for this and whatever yeah, he goes, should I break?
Speaker 1:something breaking, because they're like oh, you just made us money because we insured it for this and whatever. And he goes should I break something else? And they're like no, no, no, yeah, yeah. So he breaks a $35,000 vase which they had insured for $50,000. So they just made $15,000. Convinces him like, okay, they really are doing this, although watching it this time around, I honestly was like he is too savvy and too intelligent to be like yeah, okay, I'll go with it and also, on the other hand, like he was, like pretending to be a disabled veteran to make a few bucks.
Speaker 2:so even if this only lasts for a day or two, oh sure, Sure it's money and run.
Speaker 1:And that's like that's the ride. He's like it seems like he's on that ride for a little bit. He goes to a bar where the bartender is like you know, I can't believe you show your face here. He's like here's the $27 in interest I owed you. And then like he's he's saying like everyone, come on back party at my house. There's a whole bunch of women and he's like having Coleman make hors d'oeuvres for them and and and drinks and stuff like that, and like really having having a very eighties party. But he finds someone has put out a cigarette on the Persian rug and someone else looks like they're about to throw up and he's like bathroom's that way, and then goes the other way. I was like no, I said that way. And so he's just like all right, get out of my house to all of these people. And so he's kind of taking ownership of this nice stuff and I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it, because he cares, because it's his. However, there is one really nice moment, because it's the night before he's supposed to start work with the Dukes, so he gets everybody out. Coleman says to him like I think that was quite a success. Everyone seemed to have a very good time all of that. And he's like why don't you retire, I'll clean up? And Eddie Murphy says thanks, coleman. And like it's so little, it's such a little thing, but it's very clear that like Coleman is not used to being thanked, and so the fact that they see each other as like and Coleman also sees Billy Ray as a human being, which the Dukes do not, so his like I think it was a success is not like he's not talking down to him, he's very much like yeah, I mean, you had a nice party.
Speaker 1:So Valentine goes to work the next day is introduced to commodities trading, which is what the Duke brothers are, and so they have things laid out a glass of orange juice, bacon, a loaf of bread, gold, and they're like we're commodities traders and this is how it works, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And they are so condescending to him. And it's actually there's two places where Eddie Murphy breaks the fourth wall, and this is one of them. They have bacon. They're like so we do pork belly futures, you know which makes bacon which you can put into a bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwich, do you understand? And Eddie Murphy looks directly at the camera, which I think is very subversive. The other time is when he is arrested at the beginning and is put into the back of the cop car. He looks directly at the camera from the back of the cop car and that feels very pointed, both of those moments, because it's just like can you believe this shit? And they're like okay, so do you get what we do here? He's like yeah, I get it. You're bookies. Which little baby Emily did not know what a bookie was, but figured it out based on this.
Speaker 1:Because what they say is some of our clients, they think that gold is going to go up, and so we invest as if gold is going to go up. Some think it's going to go down, and so we invest as if it's going to go down. But here's the best part we make money either way. Whether they earn money or lose money, we make money. And so I was just like okay, so bookie makes money, no matter what happens when the bet. Okay, so like that. That.
Speaker 2:That was another one of those like weird part of the grown-up and you're a part of the grown-up club.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and not just the grown-up club like the like kind of seedy. It's like I got street cred now because I know what a bookie does. Oh man, so valentine truly does become a model employee. He actually shows himself to be extremely savvy about investing and I can't even if he saves the money or if he earns. I think he saves the money when they are arguing about when to buy or sell something and he's like no, no, no, hold off, hold off, wait until it gets to this dollar amount. And they're arguing, they're arguing with each other Like I don't believe it. And he gives his reasoning for why he thinks that. And it's because he's a keen student of human nature. He understands what's happening on the other end of this and the people who are, who are behind it.
Speaker 1:Winthorpe realizes that it is Eddie Murphy who has ruined his life. He thinks that he's taken his life and so he shows up at the office Christmas party on Christmas Eve because all of this is taking place right over Christmas and New Year's with a gun he tries to plant drugs on Valentine's desk and then also has a gun with him and he's humiliated in front of the Dukes. He takes out his gun and he like waves it around, he is dressed as Santa Claus, he is completely drunk and at the party, before he goes and tries to plant the drugs, he is taking food from the buffet, and one of the most hilarious sight gags that I will never find anything other than hilarious is later on. One of the things he takes is an entire smoked salmon and he just stuffs it into his suit Like a whole fish. And so later on he's on the bus, completely drunk, and he sits down and he makes eye contact with the woman across from him and takes the salmon out and is gnawing on it with the beard the Santa beard getting into his mouth. God, it is comedy genius.
Speaker 1:Anyway, at that point Randolph has won the bet, because not only has Valentine turned into a model employee, but Winthorpe planted one of them as a joint, and so he like throws the rest away. But he's like okay, and goes to the bathroom to smoke that. And he's in there and like hides when the Duke brothers come in and he hears them talking about the bets and it turns out that they did this for $1. It was a $1 bet. And this is the point at which they say, like okay, so how do we switch them back? And Mortimer says well, I don't want Winthorpe back now after what he's done. Well, should we keep Valentine in place? And then Mortimer, played by Don Amici, says and have a N-word running our family business? Absolutely not. And Randolph, who is the more progressive of the two of them, agrees. And meanwhile, during this scene, they're washing their hands, which is just a good visual metaphor there.
Speaker 1:So Valentine runs after Winthorpe. He is able to find him back at Ophelia's apartment where he has taken pills to attempt suicide. They get him back to Winthrop's home and they get a doctor there. He's going to be fine. And they reveal all it is. At this point. They see on the news the operative who had planted the money falsely stolen money, the drugs and Ophelia to ruin Winthorpe. They see him taking the US Department of Agriculture's crop report from DC to New York for the New York Stock Exchange and they're like, oh, I know that guy. And they realize what's going on is he works for the Dukes illegally and he's stealing the crop report information to give them so that they can have insider information for trading on frozen concentrated orange juice futures.
Speaker 2:Right, because we saw when we've the condescending BLT sandwich scene that orange juice is one of the futures that they trade in.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, so they come up with this ridiculous scheme to intercept the report. They do so on the train between DC and Philadelphia, where they all dress up in various characters. It is very cringy. Dan Aykroyd wears blackface.
Speaker 2:He's like a Rastafarian. Yes, yeah that's my recollection.
Speaker 1:And he does that in part because Beaks is the name of the played by Paul Gleeson, who was the principal in the Breakfast Club. So Beaks knows what Winthrop looks like, so there is justification for doing something to his face to make him less recognizable there's justification for disguise.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure there's ever justification for blackface no, and it also.
Speaker 1:It doesn't like this. This scene doesn't really fit in the story because the way that we have seen winthorpe, up to that point, he wouldn't have any idea how to pretend to be a Rastafarian Like he doesn't have any.
Speaker 2:Like you, wouldn't have the axe be able to do the accent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whatever, yeah it just none of it makes sense.
Speaker 2:Because it was just Dan Aykroyd was like yeah, I want to play, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this was Dan Aykroyd, this wasn. They're able to get away with this because and of course, beaks, who's not super bright but not as dumb as they're hoping he is quickly figures it out and takes them to like I don't potentially even kill them. He takes a gun and pulls a gun on them. It is new year's eve and there is a costume party on the train. There also happens to be a gorilla being transported on the train.
Speaker 2:Oh, I remember they put him in a gorilla costume.
Speaker 1:So John Belushi? No, jim Belushi, john's the one who passed away. Jim Belushi is in a gorilla costume because he's part of the costume party and so he follows them. Because, um, he, he sees ophelia and jamie lee curtis and like I want to see what's going on with that party. Very drunk, they end up accidentally knocking jim belushi out, which causes the real gorilla to bang beaks on the head, because the real gorilla was, like, attracted to the gorilla costume. So they end up putting Beaks in the gorilla costume and then putting him in the cage with the real gorilla.
Speaker 2:And he's like gagged or something in the costume.
Speaker 1:Yes, they put tape over his mouth, and this is another aspect that just ooh, it's ugly. There's the implication that Beaks is raped by the gorilla, which is just horrifying to think about. So they give the Dukes a false report and then on January 2nd they go to the stock exchange to exact their revenge, which is a short sale. So they led the Dukes to believe that the crop was badly affected by the cold winter, and so our shoes will be scarce in the future. So the Dukes are trying to buy up as much as possible before the official Department of Agriculture announcements. Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd sell, though they don't have any, they sell the futures.
Speaker 1:During that point Everything stops after a certain amount of time for the agriculture report. And so, because they're selling and because the Dukes are buying and people are like well, if the Dukes must know something, everybody's buying, buying, buying, throwing, ascending the price up. The report is the cold winter hasn't affected it, crop will be normal, and so that means the Dukes have bought all of this at an inflated price. And so at that point, aykroyd and Murphy buy. They buy low and sell high, in the opposite order. And that was how I understood it when I was a kid, when I was like I don't get it. I don't get it, I don't get it.
Speaker 2:But how did they sell if they didn't have?
Speaker 1:That's something I am not clear on how that works. I know how it works now. If you do that, you need to be able to like basically borrow from a broker and they get a commission for you borrowing it. Some of this is because my knowledge of actual investing is from after. We no longer have those pits where people are shouting with paper. Honestly, I'm watching that going, like how is any of this legal? Because you could just say like no, I was just scratching my nose, you know, and there's a lot of like stamping and things like that. But honestly, I do not get how that was able to work without people, and some of that, I think, is there must have been some sort of like honor system. In the same way that, once they get to the end, the Dukes are ruined. To meet the margin call, which means to be able to pay for what they bought, they would have to provide $394 million, which they do not have liquid, and I checked the inflation calculator. That's like $1.02 billion in today's money. That's a lot of money. So, yes, and so the head of the exchange says like okay, sell their seats, start liquidating their personal assets, you know, and so I think that's how it worked is because you had to put up something as proof, some sort of collateral, some sort of collateral.
Speaker 1:So the last scene after that, oh, and they confront each other. At the end, randolph appears to have a heart attack and Valentine and Winthorpe say like, oh yeah, we bet each other, I bet Lewis, that we could make ourselves rich and put you all in the poorhouse at the same time, and he didn't believe we could do it. And I won. And so he gives him a dollar so to show so randolph's having a heart attack. The head of the exchange is like mortimer, your brother, uh, we, we need to get an ambulance. And and I mentioned this for an important reason uh, morner says fuck him.
Speaker 1:And there's a lot going on. And then we end with this little found family of Coleman, valentine, Winthorpe and Ophelia on a beach. However, in addition to those four, there is a random woman sitting with Eddie Murphy and there's a random woman with her arm around Denham Elliott, and they're talking about what's out for lunch, and Coleman calls for Dimitri, who is a servant, and says okay, we're going to have cracked crab and lobster for lunch. And Dimitri says very good, mr Coleman. And then that's the end, although there is. The final line is Valentine is on the beach and Winthorpe and Ophelia are on a docked yacht, like however far away I mean it's within shouting distance and they say to each other looking good, feeling good, which is kind of a satisfying last line.
Speaker 2:So where do you want to start? There's a lot there, oh, there's so much.
Speaker 1:All right, let's start with race. Okay, because there are some ways that this is subversive about race, it is made clear that in a lot of ways, randolph is right. Billy Ray Valentine is in many ways a product of his environment. He is a two-bit hustler at the beginning because he did not have opportunities, and he is a very intelligent and savvy person who is capable of doing really incredible things. And at the same time, the movie also makes it clear that his hustle at the beginning is no different from what the Dukes do, except they do it with millions of dollars and they hurt a lot more people. So, like, his recognition immediately like y'all are bookies and his savvy at handling investments to me is an indictment of our financial system, right? So, like, what he is capable of doing is not something that needs a Harvard education, because that's the when Thorpe is big on the fact that he went to Harvard. It does not need this. This beautiful club that they, they stay in. It does not need you know however many years they've sat on the stock exchange. It does not need any. This beautiful club that they, they stay in. It does not need you know however many years they've sat on the stock exchange. It does not need any of that, it just needs an understanding of human nature and and some capital to start. Some capital, yeah. So that, that, I think, is interesting.
Speaker 1:The issue of race in this film is also something that so um, I mentioned that. Uh uh, donna michi, as mortimer says, fuck him about his brother. Donna michi, I only know him as an older actor. After this he was in cocoon and he was in a. I feel like he was in a twilight zone or something like that, where the a bunch of people from um, an old folks home, turn into kids again. He's been in several things and I only know him as, like an elder statesman actor. He had been in the film business forever and he had kind of an old fashioned sensibility, to the point where there are stories about how he was very uncomfortable saying fuck on camera and John Landis, the director, who's also the director of Thriller Landis, had to coax him into it and Amici only agreed to doing one take and that's what they used doing one take and that's what they used.
Speaker 1:So he was squeamish about the F word. Same character also uses the N word and I don't want to make this about Don Amici not being an okay person, because he very truly is a product of a different time, which to me is is. It says more about, like the way our society looked at the F word and how much we have grown and changed in terms of understanding what is truly vulgar. In terms of understanding what is truly vulgar and I don't necessarily have, I actually don't have an issue with the film using the N-word, because that makes it clear what villains the Duke brothers are Like. That is kind of necessary for us to understand just how heinous they are, because they're still awful people. But if they were like Valentine's doing a great job you know, like he's doing better than Winthorpe did, let's just keep him that would tell a very different story.
Speaker 2:Well then, it tells a story just about capitalism, and not racialized capitalism.
Speaker 1:Yes, and this is very much a story about race. The film, when it was written, was intended to be a vehicle for Gene Wilder and Richard Pryor.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 1:Isn't that? So that background is just ugly and fascinating.
Speaker 2:And I think there's a piece missing here from this story, which is that donna michi said the n-word on camera and we don't know. We don't know if he objected, but there was no story of him there's no story of him objecting.
Speaker 2:So even if he did object, then those who were sort of collecting interesting stories about the making of this film didn't think it was noteworthy, exactly which is also interesting. So either he didn't object or nobody thought it was worth noting that he objected points to the pervasiveness and casualness of blatant racism and the N-word. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Similarly, when Billy Ray is in lockup he's telling stories to the other other people in lockup and there are two men there who are like I don't believe a word he says and they're intimidating guys. In the credits they are billed as big black guy and bigger black guy, whoa yeah, and they have more of a part than that. He runs into them again and they come to the party with him. But that was like a joke in the credits that we wouldn't do. It's not funny, yeah, whereas like I think if they were like I don't know intimidating MF-er and like taller intimidating MF-er, yeah, that would be like okay's, that's kind of funny banff number one and banff number two yeah, yeah, it's like the fact that black is is doing heavy lifting for that description, yeah, says a lot, so that's, that's really doesn't age well
Speaker 1:doesn't age well, does not age well and undercuts. What I think the film was trying to do is same with uh, with dan akroyd's blackface like, and some of it also like because eddie murphy's character is like in on this, this conspiracy, where all four of them Denham Elliott, jamie Lee Curtis, dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy all are playing characters. Eddie Murphy pretends to be from Cameroon and leans into racial stereotypes about people from Africa, and that's pretty ugly too. And then the fact that the character like signs off on Dan Aykroyd playing blackface it also kind of like creates this situation where like, oh, it's okay because Billy Ray was okay with it. Yeah, the black guy said it was okay. Yeah, part of the joke it's supposed to be that they're really bad at disguise. Like that's supposed to be the joke Because Ophelia is dressed like in like later, no, dirndl, dressed in a dirndl, and so she looks like she's German or Austrian, but she's like no, I'm Swedish. And like it's supposed to be like, oh, this is over the top, but it doesn't like why.
Speaker 2:Mm, hmm.
Speaker 1:Like the why, why, why are we doing this? And like some of it, I feel like they just wanted. Coleman is tends to be an Irish priest and he has a bang on Irish accent and I'm like that works. Like that works, anyway, even like going into the. Okay, well, this guy is like Beaks, played by Paul Gleeson, is an asshole and like he's got prejudices and will lean into them. Like Ophelia is dressed with her boobs right there so that she can lean over right into his face and, you know, get him to do stuff for her. So like they're leaning into his prejudices. But it just it doesn't make sense. It's not well written, it's not funny, it doesn't. It hasn't aged. The only thing that works is Denim Elliot's Irish accent and Jamie Lee Curtis looks amazing.
Speaker 2:I mean she always does I mean? Yeah, she always does so. Okay, so let's talk about. We've been talking for a long minute, so we talked about race. You gave a little bit like when you explained it. You gave a little bit about like sort of how the short sale works, sort of the other things that I recall you mentioning you wanted to talk about before we hit record. One was gender. Do you want to talk about gender in this film?
Speaker 1:So film does not pass the Bechdel test. Oh, really is it? Oh, female characters there's Penelope has some friends, but they're in a single scene and they don't interact. The one scene that Ophelia and Penelope are in the same scene together, you do see Ophelia saying oh, let's have lunch to one of her friends who's getting out of lock up with her.
Speaker 1:That's it but she doesn't have a name, no, that other name. So we've got that, I mean, which is like constant problem in in, in the things we talk about Now, ophelia is an interesting character. This is the first time I understood the hooker with a heart of gold trope. And what's interesting is so she, she takes care of Lewis and like, has a has a soft spot, basically, for him. But she also makes it clear that she is a savvy businesswoman. So she brings them home and she says, like rent costs money, food costs money.
Speaker 1:And then she's like so I expect you to bring money in until you get back on your feet. You have to find a way. And then she gets changed. And that's when you see her breasts for the first time and she's like, oh, and they're not the only things in this apartment that cost money. So making it clear like this is off limits, off limits, this is a business transaction, you are an investment. Um, and then she also explains that she has 42,000, she's 24 years old, she's from a nowhere town, mining town that no one's ever heard of, and she has $42,000 in life savings. And she figures she's got three more years on her back before she can retire. Her $42,000 is in T-bills. Earning interest, which would have worked in 1983, is no longer something that'll give you enough to retire on in 2024.
Speaker 2:So how much is $42,000 in today's money?
Speaker 1:It's about three times. So I use the inflation calculator for a bunch of the different numbers that are mentioned. So it's about 130,000. So it's a good nest egg for a 24-year-old. Yeah, but not enough. I mean, it would take a lot to retire from all work, but at least that's. And so she says all she has in this world is this body, this face, and up here and she points to her head. A couple of interesting things about that. The film never shames her for being a prostitute. It very clearly makes the case that she is is like just a savvy business woman. What I find interesting is that the Dukes are commodities traders and Ophelia treats her body and face as a commodity that she can use while she still has it. As a commodity that she can use while she still has it, and in some ways that feels very empowering. It's empowering within. Capitalism is what that is.
Speaker 1:But, it's still capitalism and it still grinds you under its gears. Yeah, she also mentioned she says I don't have a pimp, and like this apartment is a dump but it's cheap and it's clean and it's mine. So, like, similar to Valentine, she's shown to be someone who did not have a lot of opportunities, but she's making even more than Valentine. She's making the best of what she has and is very savvy about it. She recognizes that a pimp is not worth it for whatever protection a pimp could give her, not worth it for the costs. She recognizes the importance of having a place of her own where she is not beholden to a roommate or anyone else. She is not beholden to a roommate or anyone else, Similar to the like my.
Speaker 1:You know when I had forgotten this, but when I realized, like the Duke brothers own everything about Winthrop's life. Like they, they own the house he lives in. They they pay the servant that he relies on. They are the grand uncles or great uncles of of his fiance, in addition to employing him. So, like, my thinking was like, yeah, you're putting all your eggs in one basket. Like don't, don't ever give your employer that much power over you. I feel like there's a similar, it's like the inverse, with with Ophelia.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like she, she, she she's taking full ownership over everything. Full ownership, yeah, but at the same time like this is clearly not what she wants to be doing right, right, and then she is sort of a prize for winthrop at the end.
Speaker 1:Yes, so there are a lot of women's bodies in this, in this film, um, so we I mean jamie lee curtis, who is gorgeous, and they're at the party that uh, that valentine has several of the women who, who come to the party just end up topless dancing. So just boobies, boobies. And then at the end, there's the woman with valentine and the woman with uh, with Coleman, where it's clear like, oh, you won, you won the quest, here's your prize. And we're led to believe that Winthorpe and Ophelia have a true emotional, loving connection, in part because she dials back from that Like you're an investment. This is business. Everything in this apartment costs money, including me, to taking care of him when he's sick, kissing him and trusting him with her, her money to invest it, cause they they use Ophelia's and Coleman's life savings as part of what they do for this Part of the short sale.
Speaker 2:Short sale yeah, oh so that's what they must have put up, that they didn't.
Speaker 1:Well, they also the Duke's paid Beaks, or who they thought was Beaks was actually Eddie Murphy, and I don't know if we know how much, but like $50,000. So they put up yeah, they had money to put up, okay, plus like Ophelia's $42,000 and then whatever.
Speaker 2:Coleman has saved.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there is a sense that there is a real emotional connection. It's a love story between Winthorpe and Ophelia. But then who are these other two ladies? Like they're just random. And like the thing that really bothered me about that, even as a kid, was Valentine throws all the people out of the house when he realizes they're not his friends, they're just there because he has shit Right that they want Right. Well, we got this right here. Like, who are these two?
Speaker 2:women. How is that different with this woman? How is this different? So like, is that different with this one? How is this different?
Speaker 1:so, like you're okay with these, these prizes, just what. There's also one of the things that I really like and so I mentioned before we started uh, recording denim elliot, who actually, I think, won a bafta for this I I'll have to go back and look it up. Curtis also won one, I think, a BAFTA for this. I never realized just how much he was putting into this character in a farce. I mean, this is, this is a like screwball comedy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's got Danny Aykroyd in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, who is amazing comedic actor, but he's a comedic actor. Yeah, he's got Danny Aykroyd in it. Yeah, who is an amazing comedic actor, but he's a comedic actor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's not known for his drama.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Elliot, there are a couple of times so, because Elliot is Aykroyd's servant and like cannot say what he's thinking. You see it in his eyes and it's amazing. There's a point where he is going through this huge production of making crepe Suzette as dessert in front of Ackroyd and his fiance, and the fiance is like I want you now, lewis. And so Ackroyd's like, okay, we're done with dinner. And Coleman says no dessert, sir. And he's like you eat it. And you see his eyes, just like, and the next scene he's throwing it out.
Speaker 1:The one that got me even more, though, was when Winthorpe shows up at the house after he's been to jail and all of that, and Coleman has been told by his employers not to let him in, to pretend he doesn't know him, and you can see in his eyes just a little bit of ambivalence, like oh, I feel bad about doing this, even though he's described Winthorpe as a scumbag and you know that he is not a fan of this guy so you see, you see coleman's, uh, humanity through yes, through the facial yes acting performance and, similarly to his, his reaction to valentine saying thanks coleman, yeah, yeah is is just, it's remarkable you brought us here, though, because we were on the beach with these extra rando women.
Speaker 2:I have a feeling you want to bring it back.
Speaker 1:Yes, so the other aspect that really disappointed me about the beach scene is it is made clear that Coleman is not considered human by his employers and that's why Valentine thanking him was so big. And his reward at the end is he gets a butler of his own to order around. And there are similar movies of people changing places and things like that. You know, a rich man becoming poor and a poor man becoming rich. And apparently the films of the 30s and 40s have a moral, as there are things that are more important than money, which is one of the reasons why I said early on, this is a movie of its time, it's of the 80s, when money was everything and people complained because it didn't have that moral. And I feel like that final scene undercuts so much of what the story prior to it was saying when it comes to things like class distinctions. So it's saying, like you know, oh, it's not that Coleman was being mistreated because he's human, it's because he was a temporarily embarrassed millionaire.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't actually undercut the notion of class at all. It just says you should be on top if you possibly can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whereas, like, I think that I still, I think this movie could still be. I think this movie would be more impactful if, even with them like not donating money to charity, not like not doing anything other than enjoying themselves If it were just the four of them and it were about found family and then the moral is that the relationship matters more than the money.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know the the money was the friends we made all along the way, right, right. By doing this, it makes it clear like it's a dog eat dog world and as long as you're the top dog, that's what's important and that is really ugly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm sympathetic to the reviewers who are like, yeah, this isn't how it would have gone in the 30s and 40s with the original screwball comedies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we've been talking for a minute now. Are there any other key points that you wanted to make sure that you shared with me before we wrap up?
Speaker 1:So one last thing I want to talk about is consent throughout the film and this is actually it's not even the major story points of the film, with the exception of the gorilla. It's just showing how differently we view consent in 2024 than we did in 1983. So early on we see Valentine on his little platform with wheels, see an attractive woman go by and he grabs her coat because it's cold out, it's December, and is like hey, baby, you know and and like trying to come on and she's trying to pull away from him, and that already icked me out. When she finally is able to get her coat away and like walks away as quickly as possible, he calls her a bitch and on the one hand, that is very realistic.
Speaker 2:Not very sympathetic for billy ray, though.
Speaker 1:No and I have wondered because, like he's supposed to be like sympathetic comedic character, even when he's pulling his cons, and so some of the stuff he says to her I think is supposed to be funny.
Speaker 1:He's like you saw porgy and bess right, which I don't really quite understand the reference, but I think porgy is, is, is, uh, disabled in the in the um I don't know so like he says things that are supposed to be funny and I wonder if the writers of the film or john landis were like, oh yeah, this is so outlandish Calling a woman a bitch after. And I'm like, yeah, there are no women in the room Clearly, because that happens all the freaking time yeah.
Speaker 1:So that was the first thing. I was just like, oh, I had no memory of that, and that's really ugly. Then, while Winthorpe is in lockup overnight, his clothes are stolen by the other inmates and he, like his fianceecé, bails him out and he's like those men tried to have sex with me and the humor in that is like his posh, like upper crust, like outraged accent, with this vulgar, horrific thing. But it's not funny. It's not funny Like there's, it's not funny. It's not funny like there's, there's it's not.
Speaker 1:So we have that. And then then we have the, the bit with the, the gorilla, which is just so ugly. Yeah, um, and another thing like the entire train aspect of the the film. It just doesn't fit tonally and part of it was, I think Ackroyd and Murphy were both affiliated with SNL and so, like Al Franken and Tom Davis play the baggage handlers who are supposed to be in charge of the gorilla and they get drunk because it's New Year's and shirk off their duties and I think they wanted a vehicle for, like them and jim belushi, they wanted a vehicle for that, but none of it makes like it's it.
Speaker 1:It's just this weird interlude in the film that doesn't fit yeah and is way too outlandish and like the the real gorilla is so clearly someone in a suit and like the idea that anyone would mistake a like party city gorilla suit for a gorilla which they do multiple occasions Right, Like it's not just the drunk folks.
Speaker 2:Right, it's just, it's just silly. It's just, it's not funny. Silly it just yes.
Speaker 1:And it's very it's great, it's great the butt of a joke.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and as odious as Beaks is, like he's, he is an odious character. No, no, no.
Speaker 2:No no.
Speaker 1:So that that has not aged well at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, whew, this was a lot. Let me see if I can reflect back to you some of the highlights. So I think the way that I would synthesize it is that you know this, this movie aimed to take on not just capitalism but actually racialized capitalism, which is in some ways very progressive in 84, in some ways a product of his time. You know, I mean, this is the era when we were sorry 83, right 83. But remember, this is the era when we were talking about welfare queens and like.
Speaker 2:So the the racialized aspect of capitalism was I'm not sure we were we weren't using that word probably racialized, but we were doing it Like we were in it in a deep, deep way. And so in some ways it's not surprising that an early 80s film, if up until the last whatever, like five minutes or so, the final five minutes actually really undercut a lot of the taking on, part of the taking on racialized capitalism. We see parallels between different characters, multiple different characters, where we have Dan Aykroyd's character, winthrop, who has put way too much faith in the Muppets in the balcony and allowed them to own everything so that they are able to take away everything. So that they are able to take away everything, and counter to that, we have both Billy Ray, who had zero opportunities or fewer opportunities, but similar skill, and we also have Ophelia Jamie Lee Curtis's Ophelia who was the polar opposite. She put trust in no one but herself.
Speaker 1:I do want to point out there was another really interesting line at that time, when Valentine thanks Coleman. It's the night before his first day of work and he's like you know, what do they want with me there? And Coleman says just be yourself, that's something they can never take away from you, which I think is also an interesting through line, because part of like part of what's interesting about Dan Aykroyd's character is there's nothing to him, like he doesn't know who he is until everything is taken away from him. Another thing that I really appreciated, once Aykroyd knows it's the Dukes. The next scene you see him putting together double-barreled shotguns and Valentine's saying to him like you can't just go shoot people. And he's like just watch me. And he's like well, it seems to me the best way to hurt rich people is to turn them into poor people, which was another one where, like that's the thesis.
Speaker 2:So I interrupted your synthesis. No, it's okay, that's a good one. This film does not pass the Bechdel test and it gives us an interesting character in Ophelia, who is not shamed by the film for being a sex worker, which we appreciate, and yet she's a little bit of a prize for Winthrop at the very end. I'll just add that, like baby Tracy, when I watched this film and I remember being like bothered by the fact that Jamie Lee Curtis had to show her boobs on film, like I can, we must've watched it with dad, cause I have this vague memory of being like. But did she have to show her boobs, dad, and him being like? Well, she's an actress and like whatever the story is that you tell a kid. That's like, burned into my brain loosely anyway quick thing.
Speaker 1:Uh, the land has had to fight to get jamie lee. Or he cast jam Curtis against the wishes of the studio because prior to that she had been in horror films which were considered de classe. Yeah, and so, like this was. And what's interesting is, she was in this, like in horror films, which are known for nudity, and had never, never had any nudity on screen until this film, had never, never had any nudity on screen until this film.
Speaker 1:And then all of a sudden, like, and it's it's so much tied up in there in that, like, oh, this became, as how she became more of a mainstream actress, but she had sharp naked yeah, and it, like you know, they, they made sure to and I'm not saying she wasn't objectified in halloween, but differently, no, I mean, and some of it was like she was the virginal, um, final girl, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's just the hula hoops no, not even hula hoops like the, the tiny little bubble hoops that, uh, actresses have to jump through just to do what they're great at. Because she is a really good actress.
Speaker 2:She also just seems to be like a mensch. I follow her on social.
Speaker 1:She's pretty great. Can I tell the story of how she was at my wedding? Sure, so my husband and I got married at my alma mater, kenyon College, on August 17th of 2008. So school at Kenyon started the following week, but Jamie Lee Curtis's daughter was a student at Kenyon and because she's Jamie Lee Curtis, she would drop her daughter off like a week early so that it wouldn't be a thing. So it would be about her daughter and not about her. And so it's a tiny little college, 1,500 students, and there's only one hotel on campus, and the hotel was the wedding and Jamie Lee Curtis, yeah, so I never actually saw her because I was busy.
Speaker 2:I remember the person who checked me in was like now we do have a celebrity here. I'm not allowed to say it is, but you'll know when you see them and just please don't make a big deal. The receptionist was like asking me to be discreet and I was like I'm probably not even going to recognize them and they were like yes, you will.
Speaker 1:Well, and you know about. So she ran into dad in the lobby at some point, I don't know, and, and, she said. She said to him oh, are you here with the wedding? And he said I'm don't know. And and uh, she said. She said to him oh, are you here with the wedding?
Speaker 1:and he said I'm the father of the bride and she's like mazel tov and kissed him on each cheek made a day. Oh my goodness, I mean he dined on that story for years. Yeah, yeah, anyway. I have so much for her affection for jamie lee curtis, um yeah, not just because ofyon, but also because of like growing up with her and then, Kenyon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I covered racialized capitalism, I covered gender.
Speaker 2:I think you had a deep appreciation for Denim Elliott's performance as Coleman, because there's so much that he had to provide to the viewer non verbally and that that he pulled off and that was really lovely in many ways to kind of underscore his humanity, which once again was subverted by those fine, that final scene, the structure of the thing has this weird interlude that was just supposed to be funny and didn't age. Well, that's the whole thing. On the train with the disguises, I'm trying to think what else did we want? Did I want to make sure this? For you personally, em, it's really fascinating to me that the whole, the whole plot line about the investing became so important to you as, like, you're a member of the grownup club, because once you understood how the short sale worked, that you understood what a bookie was, those sorts of things.
Speaker 2:And even outside of that, again, this kind of push-pull on capitalism that this film has given us there's, on the one hand, it's just betting, but done in a polite way and hurting a lot more people, and on the other hand, from the final moments, like, yeah, so play the game, play it well, win. That was the moral, yeah, yeah, in terms of the racialized capitalism to the racialized society in general, and the example of Don Amici who was so loathe to say the F word on camera and either didn't mind saying the N word on camera or nobody thought it was noteworthy to say that he didn't want to say it. Either way is a little bit damning of our society and the racism that was just taken for granted in 83,. Despite the ways in which this film takes on I'm putting quotes around takes on the racialized aspects of capitalism and classism, final thoughts or things that I missed.
Speaker 1:I just want to mention like this is more fluff than anything the screenwriters. It was a screenwriting team Timothy Harris and Herschel Weingrad. Timothy Harris went on to write a number of screenplays. I thought it was interesting that this and Brewster's Millions were his two first movies, so this is someone who also has interesting thoughts about money. But he and Weingrad wrote Twins, kindergarten Cop and Space Jam, so like very successful comedic movie writers yeah, I just found that really interesting.
Speaker 1:The other thing I thought was kind of funny because I was looking them up on wikipedia herschel weingrad it was saying like it was interesting because he was born in milwaukee I was like oh that's cool. And then he says, like his parents are of jewish descent. I was like. His name is herschel weingraud.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's also interesting. I thought he was Irish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's also interesting, even that phrase of Jewish descent, Unless they're sort of saying they weren't practicing. Is it libelous to say someone's Jewish Anyway?
Speaker 1:yeah, so next time you're bringing someone to share something with us.
Speaker 2:Yes, my friend Joanna is going to come on to talk to us about veronica mars, which I never watched.
Speaker 1:I think you did, though at least a little bit. I did. I. I binged the first two seasons, um, about five years ago, um, and then I watched like the first three or four episodes of the third season.
Speaker 2:I was like I'm out, I don't want to know what happens next well, we will talk about that and why you noped out with my friend Joanna next time Awesome.
Speaker 1:And I think you have a listener comment for us, oh yes, yes.
Speaker 2:When I posted on social media about Reality Bites, I asked my friends who would play them in the biopic, since Winona Ryder was my choice for so long, and my friend Christoph responded that he's pretty sure that this guy would play it, and he posted a picture of Cookie Monster.
Speaker 1:So thanks, Christoph. We should all be so lucky as to have Cookie Monster play us in the biopic.
Speaker 2:All right, well, listeners, if you have deep thoughts about our deep thoughts, please share them with us. We really want to hear it. So you can reach us at guygirlsmedia at gmailcom. You can go to our website, guygirlsmediacom, and go to our listener forum and please sign up for our emails, which you can then reply to. Or you can find us on socials. Yeah, either under our names or under guy girls media. All right, well, next time, ma'am, next time. Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember, pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?