It smells like the funk of 40,000 years in here!
In today’s episode,Tracie shares her deep thoughts about the iconic and groundbreaking 1983 music video for Michael Jackson’s Thriller. From the way the mini film subverts expectations to the meaning behind the horror tropes it relies on to how to contextualize Jackson’s immense talent with the troubled and abusive life he led, the Guy girls explore what it means that a novelty song featuring a zombie flash mob and Vincent Price saying “y’all’s” helped make MJ king of the world.
Throw on your headphones and listen…before darkness falls across the land!
TW: Oblique references to the allegations against Michael Jackson and the childhood abuse he endured.
Mentioned in this episode:
Our TikTok about Horror
Deep Thoughts about Clue
Inflation Calculator
The full Thriller video
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
It smells like the funk of 40,000 years in here!
In today’s episode,Tracie shares her deep thoughts about the iconic and groundbreaking 1983 music video for Michael Jackson’s Thriller. From the way the mini film subverts expectations to the meaning behind the horror tropes it relies on to how to contextualize Jackson’s immense talent with the troubled and abusive life he led, the Guy girls explore what it means that a novelty song featuring a zombie flash mob and Vincent Price saying “y’all’s” helped make MJ king of the world.
Throw on your headphones and listen…before darkness falls across the land!
TW: Oblique references to the allegations against Michael Jackson and the childhood abuse he endured.
Mentioned in this episode:
Our TikTok about Horror
Deep Thoughts about Clue
Inflation Calculator
The full Thriller video
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon.
I'm Tracy Guy-Dekker and you're listening to Deep Thoughts about Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? Today I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1983 music video Thriller by Michael Jackson with my sister, emily Guy-Burkin, and with you. Let's dive in. Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture? Others might deem stupid shit. You know matters, you know it's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come over, think with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. All right, em, I know you remember this. I remember watching it with you in 1983 when it was released. It was like a thing we all had to be home so we could watch this thing. I very clearly remember Dad's apartment in Carriage Hill, like, and he was excited to watch it. So I know you've seen it. What do you remember? What's in your head about Michael Jackson's Thriller?
Speaker 2:So there's a couple things from the time. I remember being frightened of the music video In 1983, I would have been four and of all the things that scared me, what scared me the most was that last shot of my Michael Jackson looking at the camera with the yellow eyes.
Speaker 1:I think Yellow yeah.
Speaker 2:And like that because and it's interesting because I'm still like this I can handle almost anything in fiction if it is backstory or prologue or if it's clear it's not really happening, so like if it's a dream. But when it's like actual danger Now I'm not four anymore, so like actual danger doesn't scare me like it does. But there are things like children in danger, like certain types of gendered violence. If it's in backstory I'm fine because I know that the character got through it and is okay now. But once you put it into like the current moment of the story, it scares me. And I find it interesting that even as a four year old, that was the thing that like was like oh no, even though, like, the makeup of the zombies was amazing and you know other aspects of it that were truly frightening. I remember that from childhood. I have always loved Vincent Price's monologue at the beginning. Darkness falls across the land.
Speaker 1:It's actually in the middle.
Speaker 2:It's in the middle. Oh, that's right. Okay, yes, and that part in part because Vincent Price's voice is just magnetic. It's perfect. It is perfect for that.
Speaker 2:When I was in college, my freshman year of college my next door neighbor, you know how dorm rooms you'd often have like white erase board and someone had written on. One of the two roommates had written on the white erase board it smells like the funk of 40,000 years in here. And when I saw it I was like how do I know that? How do I know funk of 40,000 years? And like it took me a little while to be like I'm hearing it in somebody's voice. Whose voice am I? Oh, vincent Price, oh, thriller. It took me a little while to get around to, like how do I know that?
Speaker 2:And you know, thriller is one that's the video, is one that I know I have gone back to. You know I was a relatively heavy MTV viewer in my early teen years and so that was one where, like, if it would come on like as a like throwback because by then it was, you know, 10 years old I would be like oh, yeah, yeah, this is good, let's watch it. And I remember watching like a making of video about it, talking about how, even though the woman playing his date is seems to be like relatively passive in terms of like, choreography and stuff like that. They were talking about how she had to walk on the beat and she was a dancer and then needed to have like, and I remember that being really interesting and impressive to me because it just had never occurred to me. So so those are the things that I can remember about Thriller. So tell me, why are we talking about this today? What's, what's, what's going on for you?
Speaker 1:Well, for our project, we've been brainstorming about pieces of media that have been influential for us, and so that's actually what got me thinking about Thriller. I remember that moment with dad where it was like we got to be home so we can watch this thing be, you know, be broadcast, and thinking about how important it is. And I was seven when it was released and it's just been there as it's like. I don't remember a time when there wasn't a Thriller video, you know. And so, as a part of our project, I wanted to kind of look and see, like, what is the furniture of my brain that Thriller is responsible for and how do I feel about that furniture? So some of the things that I'd like to get into with you are I want to talk about the well, the influence that it's had, because it really has been deeply influential. I want to talk about the. I want to break down the actual storytelling in this little short film that Michael Jackson made and the tropes that it referenced and reified and some of the choices that were made. I want to talk about how gender plays out in the story that we get, or there's actually sort of a couple of stories, because there's stories within stories, even within this 13 minute, almost 14 minute film. I think we should probably talk about and this is as good a time as any to talk about the dilemma of art versus artist.
Speaker 1:Now, michael Jackson is gone now and, ooh, talk about a troubled soul and hurt people, hurt people, and like we can wrestle with that a little bit, I think, in a conversation about Thriller. It's also fascinating to me, like Jackson I was reading this morning off the wall did well, won a Grammy, but like just won, and Jackson was like I can do better. He set out to like make a blockbuster and he did it. And you know we point to Thriller, we culturally point to Thriller, sort of like changing the landscape, and I'll talk about that a little bit. And also it didn't really take off for another couple of videos until, like he did the moonwalk for the first time, for instance Not to say it wasn't influential even in 83, but there were additional factors.
Speaker 1:So I think this is also an opportunity for us to talk about celebrity and popularity and sort of what it takes to capture the imagination of the public and how Jackson was able to tap into that. Possibly I don't know that I have the answer, but I feel like that's an interesting question for us to wrestle with. So that's where I'd like to go with this. Before I get there, let me quickly give this synopsis, a reminder of this music video which, by the way, listeners. It's 13 minutes and 42 seconds. If you haven't seen it lately, go find it on YouTube. It's there.
Speaker 2:It's fun. We can keep it to late. Yeah, I'll link to it. Yeah, in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Good call. I'll link to it in the show notes. So the video begins black screen, white letters. Disclaimer from Jackson himself. Due to my strong personal convictions, I wish to stress that this film in no way endorses a belief in the occult, which apparently was. Jackson was raised Jehovah's Witness and there were those in the church who were not so happy about this idea and this was like a compromise, so that he wouldn't be ostracized or I don't know if they do excommunication or what, but somehow this was a wow, disavowing the potentially anti-Christian pieces of this film that we're about to watch, which I did not remember at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one other piece of context, and like 83, I'm not sure exactly when, this was in the 80s, but there was like hysteria about occult practices in the 80s and there were the day cares that were like shut down because people thought that they were sacrificing babies Like I swear to God, this is real and like ruined lives, and it was partially because of things like repressed memories and stuff like that. It was mostly what it was is kids are suggestible and so like. So did you see, you know, miss Nancy dancing around a fire naked? Yes, so like it's.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's what this, I mean this, was. I think that's this predates that, because this was released December of 83. So they were working on it, you know anyway.
Speaker 2:Anyway that that that was part of the culture of the 1980s. So Okay.
Speaker 1:So we get this disclaimer and then we're looking at like a 1950s car, a convertible kind of, from a distance. It's nighttime, they're driving, the engine makes a weird sound and then it pulls to a stop. Michael Jackson is dressed. Michael Jackson ended date. It's Ola Ray is the actress's name are dressed 1950s teenager style. So he's wearing a Letterman jacket with an am on it. He's wearing, you know, like Bobby socks or poodle skirt and sweater deal. And he says no, really, we ran out of gas. And she says what are we going to do now? So the next thing we see they're walking and they have this cute little exchange. He says he really likes her. He asked if she'll be his girl. She says yes, they hug. And then he says I'm not like other boys. And she says I know, that's why I like you. And then we see a cloud move from in front of the moon and he turns into a werewolf and we see all the transformation, like the whiskers and the fingers get longer and the nails, like the full thing. And meanwhile Ola Ray is just like big eyed, like freaking out, staring, screaming, watching. She runs, he catches her and then it's really beautifully seamless.
Speaker 1:We cut to a movie theater where Michael Jackson and Ola Ray are watching this. It's a movie. So the werewolf got the girlfriend, presumably in the film. Ola Ray is really scared. Michael Jackson is like super enjoying it, like the whole audience is like scary and like kind of cringing and whatever. But he's just like not at all flinching, just eating the popcorn, like smiling and excited. She says can we get out of here? He says no, I'm enjoying this. She says I can't watch. She gets up and leaves. He follows her.
Speaker 1:We see them outside the theater which is like a old timey, like single, single cinema theater, like the senator here in Baltimore, if anybody knows that one and the signs on it have Vincent Price's name and the name Thriller. That's the movie that they were watching. They start walking. He's teasing her but she's smiling. This is the part where she's walking on the beat and he's kind of dancing around her. Now he's singing. He's singing the song. They walk past a cemetery. That's where Vincent Price's rap they call it a rap comes in and we see like zombies coming up out of the graves, graves out of like I don't know what it's called like a stone coffin.
Speaker 1:We see like a hand like move the stone, like sarcophagus. Yeah, yeah, I guess so. Yeah. So they keep walking and they're just kind of bantering. He's singing the song and then he stops suddenly and they're surrounded by zombies. They're freaking out both of them. They end up back to back and then the camera cuts to her and her eyes get real big and she looks around and realize and then we, and it does that thing where like like a quick zoom out so she gets like further away. That shows like she's alone. And we see Michael Jackson. He's a zombie Cue, the thriller dance which we all know and do in flash mobs. Now A little bit more singing, which this is interesting to me in rewatch. He doesn't sing in zombie makeup, he dances in zombie makeup, but he does not sing in zombie makeup, which is really interesting to me.
Speaker 1:She runs away into this creepy old Victorian abandoned house. They're like busting through the doors. He busts through the door, she's like cornered on a couch and it's just sort of like shaking, scared, and kind of closes her eyes as he reaches out and then he grabs her shoulder, she opens her eyes and it's just normal Michael like not zombie Michael, and he's like what's the matter? Come on, I'll take you home. And she smiles, she's relieved, she was dreaming, I guess. And then they get up, he puts his arm around her. They're sort of walking out of the room, which is not an abandoned room, it's a lived in house. He turns around, looks over his shoulder at the camera and he's got the yellow like crowly eyes, like the yellow contact lenses that fill the entire visible part of his eye with the slits. Those were the eyes of the werewolf from the movie. So there's like these. It's these interesting layers where we had this film that wasn't actually the Michael Jackson in the red motorcycle jacket. That's most of the video. But then that final scene that's scared for your old Emily actually is a throwback to that film. So that's what happens in this brief film.
Speaker 1:Seeing this as a mini movie was novel. It was new and from what I read this morning, that was actually John Landis who is the director of this little film. That was his idea. So Jackson reached out to Landis. He wanted Landis to direct the music video. He knew Landis as the director of American Werewolf in London. He didn't know any of his other films, so he didn't know the other comedies that Landis had done. At that point he knew American Werewolf in London. That's why he wanted Landis. Landis said I mean he was like the pop star. So Landis didn't want to say no, but he sort of said I don't want to do it if it's not like a mini movie. So Jackson was like, yeah, cool.
Speaker 1:So Jackson and Landis share writing credits for this and it cost $900,000 to make in 1983, which, thanks to your handy dandy inflation calculator, we know is almost $2.8 billion in today's dollars.
Speaker 1:They had to come up with how to pay for this thing. So that's how that making of video happened. They pitched that as something that then could be sold for extra content, which Landis actually really scoffed at. I mean, he did it because it helped make the money, but afterward he was very dismissive of even the notion of the making of. So our dad and our experience of being there to watch it the first time it was broadcast we weren't the only ones, and people love this thing so much that actually releasing the video on VHS was part of what drove VHS like VCR not the player, but tapes. People wanted to be able to watch this thing when they wanted to watch it, not when it was being broadcast and the making of video sold for like $29.99 in our fight and was making a face, that would be if 900,000 is 2.8 million I'm not going to do the math, but that's like 60 or 70 bucks today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's sold, so it's, and selling the rights to broadcast it to Showtime and to MTV was part of how they raised the capital to make this movie. Jackson put in some of his own money. The record label put in some money Anyway no, I'm wrong.
Speaker 2:It would be like 90 bucks today. Wow, yeah, for the making of Thorella, for the making of video, wow, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's huge, like when you think about the effect on culture and the demand and the hunger for this thing, like that's really remarkable. So I want to, like, I want to talk about this brief narrative and like why did we love it so much? I don't mean we, you and me, sisters, like we, the American public why did we? Why do we still love it so much? You know, I mean, I think in part because and I wanna hear you on your thoughts on this because you've spent a lot more time thinking about horror than I have but in my mind, part of what's appealing about the thriller video is the way that it taps into the tropes of horror without being particularly scary, so you can kind of like enjoy some of the constructs of horror without needing to have that physiological response.
Speaker 1:Which I actually believe the physiological response is part of why people like horror, because it allows them to give sort of an emotional release that's not actually about their own lives and sometimes you don't have or want that, you know. While some of the other pieces of it are still entertaining, you know, like the raising the stakes of the girlfriend's fear, knowing that it's gonna be okay, and that's actually something that you know in terms of gender, that maybe we can dig into about horror in general and about the tropes that this taps into in particular, like why is it entertaining for us that this young woman is terrified of her boyfriend? Why is that entertaining?
Speaker 2:So there's a couple of things that that brings up to me. I had forgotten, like I remembered, her poodle skirt from the scene in the the werewolf film. I had forgotten the like. No, really, we did run out of gas, and as soon as you said that, I was just like oh dear, because I know that that was like something that men would do to get women to be under their control, basically because they're in the middle of nowhere in a car that apparently has no gas. And so what do we do now? And we see them. Walking is actually a subversion of the expectation Completely.
Speaker 1:they're not making out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so that right there, like what's interesting about this video is that it consistently subverts expectations. First in like, oh, they're not making out, he's not a predator, or you know, it's not a sexual thing, but to me it would be like a young man running out of gas with a girl in the car is to me a predatory thing. So like you've got, oh, he's not a predator. And he tells her he really likes her and she really likes him too and he's not like other boys. Oh, subvert that again. He actually, because he's, he is a predator, literally, Literally a predator. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then she is very much in danger and is attacked and like horrible things are happening to her. Oh, subvert that again. It's not really happening, it's a film. So you know, this is actually, you know, a modern date and you know she doesn't like scary stuff. So, all right, we're leaving and he teases her, but it's good nature and all of that. So, oh, subverted again. There's zombies. Okay, well, at least they're together. Oh, subverted again. So like it's this consistent subversion over and over and over again.
Speaker 1:You're exactly right. And then subverted again because it's a music video and they start friggin' dancing. Yeah, synchronized. Yeah, the zombies us is backup dancers. Yes.
Speaker 2:Which, and actually even as a child, I remember being like, and that is not scary.
Speaker 1:Like, not even a little.
Speaker 2:Got a bunch of people and like truly kind of I mean well done makeup. So, like you know, depending on your level.
Speaker 1:And they're like, as they're like walking, you know Romero style like limbs are dropping off.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, so like truly frightening, like special effects, I mean, or makeup effects, which then turns into what we now call a flash mob, yeah, and okay, not scary, so that there's that subversion. So I think all of that you're right about. Why we like horror is the same reason we like comedy and the same reason we like roller coasters. It's a catharsis, right, and the catharsis of horror. I feel like comedy and horror are two sides of the same coin, in that both of them rely on some element of surprise, some element of unexpectedness.
Speaker 1:Right, because humor doesn't work without that. Yeah, yes, yes, humor subverts your expectation. That's what makes it funny, like yes. If you just said you know, two guys walk into a bar and they order two beers. That's not funny, right, exactly. You have to actually subvert something. Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:With you. So, and horror some horror is a subversion of expectations. Feminist horror in particular subverts expectations and is it's one of the ways marginalized individuals can really examine the expectations placed on themselves as a group? Their identity, yes, but the way that horror works in terms of like physiologically, when you're watching it is it gives you a sense of fear and catharsis that is, as you said, not related to your own life and allows you distance. Now you asked why do we like seeing young women in peril? And that is where it gets interesting.
Speaker 2:Because comedy, in every joke there is some sort of kernel of truth or belief. Horror is similar in that we make horror about the things that scare us, and so in some ways, what that's saying is what scares us is women in trouble, children in trouble, vulnerable people in trouble. So there is that aspect of it, and we had a TikTok on Halloween where we talked a little bit about the zombies versus vampires. Short version is vampires are the horror monsters that we see in America, in our pop culture when Democrats are in office, generally with the under democratic presidents, and zombies are the ones that we see under Republican presidents, in part because the cultural fears under Democrats is sexual perversion, which is kind of represented by vampires, and the cultural fears when we are under Republican presidents and also in times of war. Is becoming this mindless follower that is only going after our id, so eating brains?
Speaker 1:I think something even, or another piece of it, it's not. I don't think it's just sexual perversion, it's like a draining of resources.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yes.
Speaker 1:And an unfair undo like sort of the sense that you're going to take what's rightfully mine, that I think the bloodsucking mechanism of vampirism is why that comes up and under more liberal, you know, we're all in this together, kind of talking yes. So like, yeah, the lemmings of zombies, of zombieism, of undead, they're both undead, which is interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So that's an interesting aspect of this too. I mean, I think like so. This was in 83 under Reagan. He did zombies.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If it had been 96 under Clinton.
Speaker 1:Under Clinton. It might have been vampires, it might have been vampires Because vampires. What about?
Speaker 2:werewolves Decadence. So that's interesting. Werewolves are often coded as like feminine in a way, because their change is related to the cycles of the moon.
Speaker 1:So are they coded as, like my brain is telling me that there's there might, there could potentially be like racism around it, like in some of the wildness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in particular, since it's Jackson which, you know, mtv claims there was never, you know, a whitewashing or you know, not showing black artists. I'm not sure the data backs that up. Regardless, like, jackson was crime time and black, and so, like MTV, like, made a big deal, we all sat around our TVs for this black artist who turned into a werewolf, you know, in the first few moments of the video.
Speaker 2:Well, even just look at Teen Wolf.
Speaker 1:Michael J Fox.
Speaker 2:Michael J Fox film when he is a werewolf. He is better at basketball. Sports Right Sports basketball, like you know, a better swimmer.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, good call. Yeah, you know. It's interesting too that I'm just I'm thinking this now as we're talking. He's not a predator, he's not a sexual predator. We were afraid he was going to be a sexual predator in the very first scene with the gas running out, and then he transforms into a beast and he is very much a predator, chasing this scared woman. So there's a sexual hypersexualization abstraction to the werewolf as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot in there. I mean, these reflect our fears. So there's, I mean, the fear of the other, the fear of savagery, the fear of hypersexualization. There's also the fear of lack of control, which is the werewolf transformation you can't control, and then that is also coded along with women's menstrual cycles. What's interesting also because you mentioned why is it that we enjoy watching young women be terrorized? Because there is that fear, but it is also prurient.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we live in a misogynistic culture and so we like seeing women suffer, and so there can be kind of a pasting over of the like oh, I like watching women suffer, but it's about like I want to see the final girl, or like the virginal girl survives because she's a good woman, and we can even make it feminist, like oh, yeah, well, sydney Prescott survives, scream because she's a badass, but all these other girls die in horrible ways and are like terrorized, and so we can have our cake and eat it too, where it's like yeah, this is like we're kind of going through these actual fears that our culture has about vulnerability of young women, but we can also enjoy the prurient experience of watching them suffer and often the prurient experience of seeing their tits, because in a lot of horror that's how you know who the bad girls are, who are going to die, and then also say but you know, good women survive.
Speaker 2:So it's all tangled up in there, the misogyny in classic horror, which is part of the reason why feminist horror is so exciting and so interesting.
Speaker 1:You know, I think that the actual lyrics of the song underscore the point you just made, right? So, because the lyrics of the song are all about how all these terrible things are coming to get you and you can't escape them, you can't escape the thriller, and I mean there are. There's also a verse about how I'm going to protect you from the terror on the screen. So it's, you know, mirroring what's happening in the video. That it's, it's about a horror movie, it's not about real. And also, just like you know, that final, final frame of Jackson with the werewolf eyes, it's like it's not real and it's real, there it's, it's there's.
Speaker 1:There's an ambiguity even within the lyrics, which I am overthinking, I will grant you. I am totally overthinking. I think this Jackson didn't write this and I believe that the guy who wrote it, like it was mostly a novelty song, and I don't think I'm putting things there that aren't there, right, they may not have been intended, but I do think that there's this, like even the you know, I could love you, I could love you more than any ghoul could ever dare try Like there is a sexual component of the relationship between the singer, jackson, or the persona that Jackson is singing and the you to whom he is singing, that also says like you can't escape, and I think that's you know, that's worth kind of noticing at least.
Speaker 2:Something I find interesting like to conflate the character that Jackson's playing in Thriller and Michael Jackson himself, in part because he lived an official his entire life and so he was constantly under scrutiny and so everything he did intentionally, you know, like not when he was like being photographed out and about, but anything he did intentionally, I believe there was thought put into it. So he was described as a feminine and like not a real man, because that's how we talked about this shit in the 80s. And when he married Lisa Marie Presley there was, I think, at the MTV Music Awards, like he kissed her on stage to be like you know the prove they were together yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, to me, part of what I feel like, especially that looking over his shoulder with the with the golden eyes seems like a way of being like yeah, he's, he's very soft spoken, he's very slender, he seems like a feminine but he's all man because he's a predator.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm certain that the word predator was not what he was thinking with that.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no no.
Speaker 2:Intentional, but I do think that there is. There was a sense of like reassuring people, like straight as can be.
Speaker 1:I'm a beast in the bedroom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, similar with like the song Billie Jean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which was on that album.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about Jackson. Since we're talking about Jackson, I I I'm not interested in adjudicating the veracity of some of the claims that people have made against him. At a certain point, like, it just becomes sort of a he said, he said and like feels like something was not quite right with this guy, especially vis-a-vis his relationship with younger boys. So this is like a specific example where we can talk about like how do we navigate this as consumers of media when it becomes clear that the maker of that media has untoward behavior? Right, like.
Speaker 1:I feel like in previous generations we were taught to just divorce the art from the artist, that they had independent existences. You know, we were taught to just not pay attention to Pablo Picasso's sexual predatory nature and appreciate his genius. And I think a lot of us have sort of said like uh-uh, nope, because that gives a pass and we're not giving a pass to bad behavior anymore. And I don't think it's black and white, I don't think it's, I don't think it's a binary of like that's, that's it, we're done, we can't talk about that person anymore. So I'd love to like just briefly, because we've been talking for a minute, but just briefly kind of wrestle with this idea of like, especially as the viewer, to look at something and say like I loved this piece of media.
Speaker 1:It affected me, it changed the way I think and see, and now I know that the person who created it did some things that I cannot condone. So what do I do? I feel like this is actually a very important question. So it's easy for me to sort of say like Woody Allen, I'm done. I will never, ever watch a Woody Allen movie because Woody Allen I'm, for whatever reason, my age or whatever, like he's not a part of my furniture in my head. It's easy for me to be like nope, you can't get in because he's not already in?
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting because I think in like movie quotes, yeah, so, and some of the ones that are really deeply embedded are Bill Cosby, yeah, bill Cosby himself. So like, when I call my kid the wrong name in my head I'm going. But dad, I'm Jesus Christ, right, right.
Speaker 1:Because dad had that album on vinyl that we listened to over and over and over again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, and so like digging that out, which I work to do so in Cosby's case. Now, what's interesting is what you're talking about like a divorce, the artist from the art. They call it the death of the author, right, right. I find that literally works for me, in that prior to Michael Jackson's death, I could not listen to his music. Once he died and you could see the fullness of his life in context, because there was no more to come. I could listen to his music, again Interesting, and in part that was because after his death it became more clear to me how horribly abused he had been. Yeah, and then the fact that you take someone who has been so terribly abused and then give them unlimited money right.
Speaker 2:It's just there's. There's no way to come out of that. Okay, yeah, yeah, I can recall reading a story about Michael Jackson where he went to like this high end department store had them close it down. It was like on a Saturday night, so he'd go in and shop and he just pointed at stuff like that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that. And I remember thinking like that's awful, like there's no joy in shopping, in acquiring, in saving up for something and wanting something because it is at your fingertips at any moment. And for someone who was so abused, it's understandable that he would lean into like yes, that, that, that, that, that, that, that. But like his mental health was could not have been good, yeah, but that way, you know, it's really hard to say that what you just said vis-a-vis what you said at the very beginning of our conversation about how you have a hard time with peril of vulnerable people when the action, at the moment the action is happening, if it's prologue or backstory, you're like cool, got it.
Speaker 1:You know what you said at the very beginning of our conversation, how you have a hard time with peril of vulnerable people, of vulnerable people, when the action, at the moment the action is happening. If it's prologue or backstory, you're like cool, got it. And now that's what you're saying about Jackson. Right, all of his, both what the abuse he took and the abuse he gave, is now prologue because the man is dead.
Speaker 1:And so now you're able to look at the art that he made and consume the art that he made. It's really an interesting like follow through in terms of what works for you.
Speaker 1:I think it's really also. I quite like what you're offering right now, which is not to excuse bad behavior but to understand it within the context of a whole person and a hurt person who did hurt people. And being able to hold all of that allows us to also hold the art. Yes, and I quite like that. I mean, I gotta tell you, like some of those old Jackson 5 records, they're amazing, so good. If I'm feeling down, that's what I want to listen to. It like brings me back up.
Speaker 2:I very strongly recall watching the Billie Jean video because I liked how the like. That's the one where as he steps on these squares in the sidewalk, they light up and it's I mean it's. It's nothing compared to thriller in terms of, like what goes into the video, but it's a combination of the music. Like you said, thriller is kind of a novelty song, whereas Billie Jean is fire. I mean that is a fantastic song, even though the message is one I'm like. But it's phenomenal and I have very strong memories of watching it, not understanding the lyrics at all but singing along. And really, when you get down to it, even Jackson's later stuff, which I don't think is as good as what came, came early on in his career. But even his later stuff is still catchy as hell and I still will find myself like kind of humming along to it if it, if it comes on. Had he not been so talented, he wouldn't have been so abused, because his family abused him because of his talent.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so it's something I like to say to my kids is life is not a buffet meaning, like if you are envying someone for something, you can't just pick that one thing and apply it to your life, and it's not like you could switch places without the other person either. But everything is a package deal and so, like all of Michael Jackson is a package deal in that if he weren't so talented, he wouldn't have been so abused and he would not have then gone on to be so abusive. If he weren't so talented, he wouldn't have been so so wildly wealthy, and which means he would not have been in a position to abuse like he did. Because a big part of that was because he was a star and he was wealthy, and so people ignored their better judgment or whatever in allowing their young children to spend time with him, whereas like had he just been. You know Mike, who works at the car wash right.
Speaker 1:But he wouldn't have. But he presumably might not have had those proclivities because he wouldn't have been abused in the same way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a cycle. It's a cycle, so it's not a buffet.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so being able to see the context of Michael Jackson as a whole person once he had died. And some of this is also of the I'm of the feeling like I don't want my money going to someone who will hurt people, right? Yep, so it is easier for me to listen to his music and knowing like whatever two cents that they get from my listening to it on Apple Music is going to his estate and not to Jackson himself. Yeah, in the same way like I will not read or buy or since got card books once because his money goes to, like, gay conversion therapy charities.
Speaker 1:Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:And I feel very lucky that I didn't read.
Speaker 1:Enders game.
Speaker 2:I was an adult, so it's not part of the furniture of my mind. But once Orson Scott card is no more, I will feel more comfortable about like at least borrowing from the library. I still probably won't read that, just in case. As a state is going to get conversion therapy to so like some of this is very much a practical response, but at the same time I will not go back to Bill Cosby himself or the Cosby show after he dies.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I cannot appreciate the art from that artist, even knowing the full context of his life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that went dark. Thank you, I'm going to bring us back to thriller briefly and then wrap us up. The one thing that I think is really that we didn't talk about much at all. A little bit, but not to analyze, is the Vincent Price piece of it and sort of what Price's name and voice lent to this novelty not novelty song and just like on a like really surface, like humor level in terms of subversion even right, you've got this like white old horror actor, but there's like there's a formality to Vincent.
Speaker 2:Price. There's a gravitas to Vincent Price, yeah.
Speaker 1:And they refer to his voiceover as a rap in the credits. So, which I mentioned earlier. That's one thing, and the other is like actually reading the lyrics this morning. He says terrorize y'all's neighborhood and like I, somehow I thought he was saying like you, like I heard that for 30 years as some sort of archaic like yours, like some sort of archaic possessive second person pronoun it's y'alls, terrorize y'alls neighborhood. And like.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to lift that up. Vincent Price saying like I can't read this.
Speaker 1:No, actually I want to believe my head cannon is that Price was like bring it on. That is my head cannon is that Price was like into it. So I just, I just like wanted to name that. That like having him on this pop song was already subversive. And then what they called what he did, the word, at least a part of the words that they had him say were also subversive of expectations, which is aligned with all that we and you have been saying about this music video from the beginning. So with that, let me see, Well, any final thoughts before I wrap us up.
Speaker 2:Just that, the, the level of professionalism to every aspect of this. I mean obviously because they spent $900,000, but just the like, the, the makeup, the dancing, the choreography, the costumes, the sets it was really the the, the direction, like what you were saying is like the really beautiful cuts, like it's just.
Speaker 2:I think part of what was amazing about this was that Michael Jackson took this, this form, this new art form, seriously. Yes, and people hadn't necessarily been doing that, and that, I think, is is part of what makes what made Michael Jackson so good, is he was like this art form is worth caring about.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that's what Jones, spike Jones, says about it. He says, you know, they were having fun and telling a story. It wasn't about marketing outcomes, they didn't. I mean, jackson did have ambition to be, you know, king of the world, which he achieved, but that's the actual, like monetary outcome was not what was driving him in making this film. He was having fun and telling a story. Yeah, and that is not something that anyone had ever done with a music video before.
Speaker 1:So I think you are exactly right. All right, so let me see if I can kind of, let me explain, reflect back, some of our key points. So I think first bucket is the storytelling of the, of the film itself, which shows you something that's familiar. You know what to expect, and then it subverts your expectation, and then it subverts it again, and then it subverts it again, and then it subverts it again. It's just over and over and over again subverting your expectations by using tropes that you, that we recognize. So that's the first thing, I think, part of what made it so exciting and entertaining. Another bucket is just that we talked about. That this video was tapping into is how horror works in society as a genre, which is to both display the things that we're afraid of and also at a distance, and also allow us to have some prurient enjoyment of those of that fear or, in this case, in many cases, a prurient enjoyment of women in danger.
Speaker 1:We spent some time talking about the death of the author vis-a-vis Michael Jackson and how, in this case, the death of the author allowed us to reintegrate Jackson's music into into rotation, because we were able to see the whole person and the unable to see his bad behavior as the result of other people's bad behavior really aimed at and abusing him, which doesn't make it okay but allows us to hold the whole person. And I closed with the silliness of Vincent Price saying y'all's neighborhood. And there was a final point that you made.
Speaker 2:Remind me what was the final thing, the level of competence and expertise. So this actually gets back to something I remember we talked about in the Clue episode, where they took the process seriously but not themselves.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, right, and that's part of what's so magical about this 13 minute video is that it takes horror. It takes B horror movies seriously, it takes the music seriously, it takes music videos seriously, but nobody's taking themselves seriously and hence we get these ridiculous, this amazing zombie makeup in this ridiculous dance which has now become completely a complete cultural icon.
Speaker 2:The dance itself, the choreography itself yeah, yeah, and that's that's something I think, because we have a tendency as human beings to take ourselves too seriously and not take a work seriously or process seriously, and so like and so like. People who are able to do the opposite are the reason, like that's, that's why they make incredible art.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's right. Anything that I missed in my highlights reel.
Speaker 2:No, no, I think that's. I think that's everything it's. It's this amazing cultural artifact that is. It's iconic and I'm glad to revisit it, I mean just just because of how how much it does. This is not part of the furniture of my brain that I necessarily like recognizes being there, right.
Speaker 1:You know like. But it is because you recognize the funk of 40,000 years. You recognized it.
Speaker 2:So I didn't like when I when I saw that if it had been a Princess bride quote, I would have known exactly where it came from, right, so like that's, like, that's like the sofa and the bed of the furniture in my mind, right, right, this is more like an end table.
Speaker 1:Right, right, yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you, all right. Well, it's your turn next. What are we talking about next?
Speaker 2:Next time I will be bringing you my deep thoughts about trading places.
Speaker 1:Okay, cool. Well, I will look forward to deep thoughts about trading places and in the meantime, listener, if you have thoughts about our deep thoughts, we want to hear them. So you can reach out to us on our website, guygirlsmediacom, we have a reader's forum. You can email us at guygirlsmediagmailcom or go find us on social, and we would love to hear from you. We really would. Hey, if you send us your thoughts, we might read them on the air. Yes, talk to you soon. Do you like stickers? Sure, we all do. If you head over to guygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up and share your address with us, we'll send you a sticker. It really is that easy, but don't wait, there's a limited quantity. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes. Until next time, remember, pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?